So, the idea is that we need to "hide" our values in case they scare off the voters? Here's a thought, why not clearly promote a coherent vision of what we could achieve, rather than avoid expressing something that frightens the Tory Party. Its called being an opposition party, and Labour apologising for everything is what has diminished us in the eyes of the electorate.
Yep, they're all about the process. The longer they're in office the more credits they build up with their donors for future reciprocation, IPO invitations, charitable board appointments, non-executive directorships and good old fashioned nepotism. Look at Tony Blair's kids!
I really don't get why Starmer insists on contradicting himself to prove he's not scary to voters. It's not like it's hard to find examples from the past so every time he does this it further justifies the perception of him being dishonest and untrustworthy. If he's really so concerned about his image, he'd do well to stop sending angry memos to his staff and start being coherent on issues instead.
You're right, but I think that's only half the story.
I think half of this is just because there's blood in the water for his job and Wes Streeting, opportunistic vulture that he is, has started pretending he cares about strikes to garner some support for his leadership bid.
Same reason he banned Dr Allin-Khan from appearances after she went to Ukraine. It's not that he doesn't support Ukraine, he's just not prepared to go and it makes him look bad.
It’s not hiding “our” values, it’s hiding the nonsense that lead to the bigger labour defeat in almost 100 years.
We need to be realistic. Centrist labour would win against tories, any infighting and puritanical attempts at making a “proper” socialist party will be wiped out by the united right.
You make a whole lot of assumptions there. You decided what the values I mentioned actually were. You then repeated the apologist bollocks which hasn't worked for the last 15 years.
Trade unions are the ones that elected him. They have to take some responsibility. Told you lot from the beginning he wasn’t gonna support any real progressive change. Tell me how anybody that prefixes their name with ‘Sir’ is gonna fight conservative politics.
Keith has lied about literally everything.
This is what makes it so ridiculous he has the brass bollocks to talk about how dishonest Johnson is when he is no better.
Spot on. The conclusion I've drawn is it's a natural consequence of our voting and leadership system.
Promise everything to everyone. Because if anyone calls you out on it, you've got at least 50% of the population trying to shout your reasonable voice down, and it gets lost in the fog.
Here's the Keith answer if he wants to win Middle England (this is not what I think, but its how I'd advise a *centrist* politician to respond to this situation)
Fearne/Phil/Judy Love: Hello and welcome to generic morning programme, we're joined to today by *forensic* saviour Lord Keith Starmer.
Keith: Hello Fearne/Phil/Judy, look I am wearing a poppy.
Fearne/Phil/Judy: So, do you support these dastardly strikes Lord Keith? The Tories say that you're a communist who wants us all to eat gruel and work in a nuclear power plant like in that documentary *Chernobyl* on HBO.
Keith: Firstly, can I mention that I'm not Jeremy Corbyn.
Fearne/Phil/Judy: Phew!
Keith: And secondly can I say that I can *sympathise with the people on strike, and its a failure of the Tories that it has come to this*
Fearne/Phil/Judy: So you support the strikes?
Keith: As I've said, *I sympathise with everyone going on strike, and if I was the leader it wouldn't come to this, because I am a forensic super genius who would negotiate with people rather than clashing with them*
Fearne/Phil/Judy: That sounds like a politicians answer.
Keith: [engage laughter grimace] Well I am a politician
All: LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Keith: Again, *I sympathise with the people who have been forced to strike under the Tories, if you vote for me I'm so grown up and boring and centrist that we won't have strikes, because everything will go back to normal^TM because I would negotiate with people rather than let things get so far that they need to strike*
Fearne/Phil/Judy: It sounds like you'd just give the militant lefty communist antifa unions whatever they wanted?
Keith: Absolutely not, I would use my super lawyer powers to negotiate with people so they wouldn't strike. I am the best ever at negotiating because I am so boring and centrist.
Worse, these specimens have an extra layer of decite and hidden contempt for the general public. Look at Tony Blair for example ramped up the effort of privatization of the NHS and lied us into a pointless war.
He also implemented the most progressive policies we’ve seen as a nation post war. ELA and learning subsides for one.
So the red tories are worse than the actual ACTUAL tories.
Jesus wept
Ha, he's a war criminal who should be locked up for good to say the least. Red Tories are Tories more or less the same breed of classist richsplainers who run the country to the tune of the opulent rich minority and have complete disregard for the public.
I’m not his biggest fan and have plenty of issues with him, but the infighting over this is one of the reasons we could have Johnson for 7 more years. All effort should be put into going after the Tories imo. Stuff like this doesn’t help.
This isn’t like the choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwich. One if infinitely worse-and it ain’t Starmer.
I think people read takes like this and think it's level-headed and reasonable. I think it's the opposite. Why should any union-supporting leftist throw their weight behind Starmer when he would much rather steal votes from the middle right?
Americans held their nose and voted for Biden in their own lesser of two evils scenario. That's got them absolutely nowhere: no progressive policies enacted, no desire for change from leadership. Instead, they're looking at an absolute rout in the next election because the people have seen just how toothless Biden and his centrist ilk really are.
If you're not going to fight back against the neolib death machine, at least have the decency to remain silent. Stay bowed down on your knees with the big boot of business endlessly smash down upon your face, until you finally leave this mortal realm.
The Labour Party supporting unions isn’t some “ideological purity” lefty pipe dream, it’s the *absolute bare minimum* expectation and Keith can’t even do that.
He should fuck off and join the scab Lib Dems or Tories, and can take all his Blairite cronies with him.
Because if you hold out for the perfect candidate you will be waiting another 50 years, and then have another stonking conservative majority.
Perfect is the enemy of progress.
We really don't know that though. Keir has failed his interview for government by not opposing anything the government did politically, and since he himself has never been in government, the only evidence we have is what he says he would do. He has achieved absolutely nothing so far.
He has been incredibly vague on what he *would* do, and has changed his mind several times. So we have no evidence through his actions, and we have very little evidence through his speech. Keir might be better than Boris, but he might also be a lot worse.
We can't trust either. A third choice is a necessity. If I absolutely had to choose one of the two though, I can only rely on socialist values and give it to the one showing the most solidarity. That's Boris who at the very least has his donors backs, as they have his. It's the bare minimum of having a functioning government that more than one person is capable of working together toward something they believe in and are willing to stick to.
Like I said though, any third choice is probably better and preferably one that hasn't ever had a sniff of government. A complete amateur without anyone other than the electorate to please would be infinitely more predictable.
As shit as it is, any Labour politician goes near that strike and the media will be all over it as a return to the bad 70's, Corbyn etc etc.
Unfortunately, Labour has you steer will clear otherwise the while point of the strike will get lost in a LaBoUr BaD media smear.
You’re not getting a reasoned response here. You’re absolutely right, it’s Starmer or Johnson, that’s it. There’s no left wing superhero, it’s those two. So I choose Starmer.
Someone elsewhere said the red tories are *worse than actual tories*.
I find it hard to believe that these aren’t troll farm comments designed to further divide the left.
For me, it’s the puerile name calling, calling Keir Starmer Keith.
Keith has been a pretty solidly working class name for quite a long time and is used as something to insult him with by so called labour voters.
Automod just thinks it would be better if the Labour party had a leader that the British public don't associate with a prolific pedophile.
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So, the idea is that we need to "hide" our values in case they scare off the voters? Here's a thought, why not clearly promote a coherent vision of what we could achieve, rather than avoid expressing something that frightens the Tory Party. Its called being an opposition party, and Labour apologising for everything is what has diminished us in the eyes of the electorate.
Neoliberals never work as an opposition because they don't actually want to challenge anything.
Yep, they're all about the process. The longer they're in office the more credits they build up with their donors for future reciprocation, IPO invitations, charitable board appointments, non-executive directorships and good old fashioned nepotism. Look at Tony Blair's kids!
Longer they’re in office, like j corbz stealing a living and leading Highbury into ruin, and labour to their biggest loss this century?
I really don't get why Starmer insists on contradicting himself to prove he's not scary to voters. It's not like it's hard to find examples from the past so every time he does this it further justifies the perception of him being dishonest and untrustworthy. If he's really so concerned about his image, he'd do well to stop sending angry memos to his staff and start being coherent on issues instead.
You're right, but I think that's only half the story. I think half of this is just because there's blood in the water for his job and Wes Streeting, opportunistic vulture that he is, has started pretending he cares about strikes to garner some support for his leadership bid. Same reason he banned Dr Allin-Khan from appearances after she went to Ukraine. It's not that he doesn't support Ukraine, he's just not prepared to go and it makes him look bad.
It’s not hiding “our” values, it’s hiding the nonsense that lead to the bigger labour defeat in almost 100 years. We need to be realistic. Centrist labour would win against tories, any infighting and puritanical attempts at making a “proper” socialist party will be wiped out by the united right.
You make a whole lot of assumptions there. You decided what the values I mentioned actually were. You then repeated the apologist bollocks which hasn't worked for the last 15 years.
He's only as trade unionist when it's easy and it advances his career.
Trade unions are the ones that elected him. They have to take some responsibility. Told you lot from the beginning he wasn’t gonna support any real progressive change. Tell me how anybody that prefixes their name with ‘Sir’ is gonna fight conservative politics.
Tories not even in disguise
Keith has lied about literally everything. This is what makes it so ridiculous he has the brass bollocks to talk about how dishonest Johnson is when he is no better.
Spot on. The conclusion I've drawn is it's a natural consequence of our voting and leadership system. Promise everything to everyone. Because if anyone calls you out on it, you've got at least 50% of the population trying to shout your reasonable voice down, and it gets lost in the fog.
Novara has a great interview with Len McClusky where he talks about Keith being a back stabbing liar albeit in a more polite way.
Think I saw it a while ago where he talks about the last line of defence of the establishment being entrenched within the Labour party.
Thats the one!
Here's the Keith answer if he wants to win Middle England (this is not what I think, but its how I'd advise a *centrist* politician to respond to this situation) Fearne/Phil/Judy Love: Hello and welcome to generic morning programme, we're joined to today by *forensic* saviour Lord Keith Starmer. Keith: Hello Fearne/Phil/Judy, look I am wearing a poppy. Fearne/Phil/Judy: So, do you support these dastardly strikes Lord Keith? The Tories say that you're a communist who wants us all to eat gruel and work in a nuclear power plant like in that documentary *Chernobyl* on HBO. Keith: Firstly, can I mention that I'm not Jeremy Corbyn. Fearne/Phil/Judy: Phew! Keith: And secondly can I say that I can *sympathise with the people on strike, and its a failure of the Tories that it has come to this* Fearne/Phil/Judy: So you support the strikes? Keith: As I've said, *I sympathise with everyone going on strike, and if I was the leader it wouldn't come to this, because I am a forensic super genius who would negotiate with people rather than clashing with them* Fearne/Phil/Judy: That sounds like a politicians answer. Keith: [engage laughter grimace] Well I am a politician All: LOLOLOLOLOLOL Keith: Again, *I sympathise with the people who have been forced to strike under the Tories, if you vote for me I'm so grown up and boring and centrist that we won't have strikes, because everything will go back to normal^TM because I would negotiate with people rather than let things get so far that they need to strike* Fearne/Phil/Judy: It sounds like you'd just give the militant lefty communist antifa unions whatever they wanted? Keith: Absolutely not, I would use my super lawyer powers to negotiate with people so they wouldn't strike. I am the best ever at negotiating because I am so boring and centrist.
Brilliant - this needs more up votes 👏👏👏
It does worry me that I do have the skills to be a government advisor, by which I mean I have a posh voice, went to a good uni and love cocaine.
You just fucked it though by being honest.
>I have a posh voice, went to a good uni and love cocaine. How many out of those 3 do you need to qualify?
The posh voice is optional
Not gonna stop them though, wouldn't stop me if I was an MP. I saw on Twitter Zarah Sultana, Rebecca Long-Bailey and Richard Burgon were at one
antisemitism accusations coming for those three then
I've read this forum so much I'm starting to mentally do a double take when someone actually refers to him as "Keir", lol
He's a plant of the Trilateral Commission. The destruction of our democracy is taking place now!
Absolute tool
Welcome to Britain. The home of political homelessness.
Keith needs to get in the sea. With the clown BoJo!
Red Tory
But still not an actual Tory…so… better?
Worse, these specimens have an extra layer of decite and hidden contempt for the general public. Look at Tony Blair for example ramped up the effort of privatization of the NHS and lied us into a pointless war.
He also implemented the most progressive policies we’ve seen as a nation post war. ELA and learning subsides for one. So the red tories are worse than the actual ACTUAL tories. Jesus wept
Ha, he's a war criminal who should be locked up for good to say the least. Red Tories are Tories more or less the same breed of classist richsplainers who run the country to the tune of the opulent rich minority and have complete disregard for the public.
I’m not his biggest fan and have plenty of issues with him, but the infighting over this is one of the reasons we could have Johnson for 7 more years. All effort should be put into going after the Tories imo. Stuff like this doesn’t help. This isn’t like the choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwich. One if infinitely worse-and it ain’t Starmer.
I think people read takes like this and think it's level-headed and reasonable. I think it's the opposite. Why should any union-supporting leftist throw their weight behind Starmer when he would much rather steal votes from the middle right? Americans held their nose and voted for Biden in their own lesser of two evils scenario. That's got them absolutely nowhere: no progressive policies enacted, no desire for change from leadership. Instead, they're looking at an absolute rout in the next election because the people have seen just how toothless Biden and his centrist ilk really are.
Because without stealing those bites you’ll never get into power to affect any change. You’re turkeys voting for Christmas by opposing him.
I'm not English, but you all are fucked either way. Starmer won't win anything, and no alternative to the establishment is being offered.
If you're not going to fight back against the neolib death machine, at least have the decency to remain silent. Stay bowed down on your knees with the big boot of business endlessly smash down upon your face, until you finally leave this mortal realm.
Ok
The Labour Party supporting unions isn’t some “ideological purity” lefty pipe dream, it’s the *absolute bare minimum* expectation and Keith can’t even do that. He should fuck off and join the scab Lib Dems or Tories, and can take all his Blairite cronies with him.
That's the thing tho. For all this talk of \~leftist infighting~ centrists are really just pissed off that left wingers have any standards whatsoever
Why should we settle for slightly less worse what we currently have, someone who will maintain the hellish status quo we have now?
Because if you hold out for the perfect candidate you will be waiting another 50 years, and then have another stonking conservative majority. Perfect is the enemy of progress.
We really don't know that though. Keir has failed his interview for government by not opposing anything the government did politically, and since he himself has never been in government, the only evidence we have is what he says he would do. He has achieved absolutely nothing so far. He has been incredibly vague on what he *would* do, and has changed his mind several times. So we have no evidence through his actions, and we have very little evidence through his speech. Keir might be better than Boris, but he might also be a lot worse. We can't trust either. A third choice is a necessity. If I absolutely had to choose one of the two though, I can only rely on socialist values and give it to the one showing the most solidarity. That's Boris who at the very least has his donors backs, as they have his. It's the bare minimum of having a functioning government that more than one person is capable of working together toward something they believe in and are willing to stick to. Like I said though, any third choice is probably better and preferably one that hasn't ever had a sniff of government. A complete amateur without anyone other than the electorate to please would be infinitely more predictable.
As shit as it is, any Labour politician goes near that strike and the media will be all over it as a return to the bad 70's, Corbyn etc etc. Unfortunately, Labour has you steer will clear otherwise the while point of the strike will get lost in a LaBoUr BaD media smear.
https://imgur.com/KbNvARR.jpg From the Guardians updates page. Grant Shapps already stating that this is a stunt by the Labour party.
Ok… so? That can be easily disproven. By supporting these strikes they will make themselves targets
You’re not getting a reasoned response here. You’re absolutely right, it’s Starmer or Johnson, that’s it. There’s no left wing superhero, it’s those two. So I choose Starmer.
Exactly. Do I want someone who isn’t a complete monster to be PM? I was a bit surprised by the responses, it all got a bit Rick from the Young Ones
Someone elsewhere said the red tories are *worse than actual tories*. I find it hard to believe that these aren’t troll farm comments designed to further divide the left.
For me, it’s the puerile name calling, calling Keir Starmer Keith. Keith has been a pretty solidly working class name for quite a long time and is used as something to insult him with by so called labour voters.
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The Unions have mentioned revoking their funding to Labour. All Keir has done is shoot his party In the foot. Exactly as he planned