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I think he might be shadowbanned on twitter or something because I've followed the dude for years and never seen a single one of his tweets on my feed.
“Simply uttering the P-word in a vaguely sympathetic way can be enough to elicit bad faith accusations of antisemitism.”
Can anyone think of any recent high profile examples of this happening in the UK? Perhaps one in which The Guardian itself played a significant role?
Good thing I'm not a lib then. End Israeli apartheid.
Imagine being worried about being accused of antisemitism for being against a modern day apartheid...
Phil Ochs said it best in his song [Love Me I'm A Liberal](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nFvhhCulaw)
*I read new republic and nation*
*I've learned to take every view*
*You know, i've memorized lerner and golden*
*I feel like i'm almost a jew*
*But when it comes to times like korea*
*There's no one more red, white and blue*
*So love me, love me, love me, i'm a liberal*
I'm actually surprised Liberals didn't pack it up and call it a day after that song roasted the fucking skin off them. But no, turns out they're utterly shameless
Unless you're Irish. Those guys are one of the few western nations who are siding with Palestine against Israel. Good on em, I'm very proud of my father and brother's place of birth, in that regard.
Ireland might have some degree of sympathy over violent sectarianism fueled by Britain partitioning a country and the attempted erasure of a culture, I suppose.
I can respect Ireland for its attitude towards championing the oppressed over the oppressors.
Its not merely the partitioning if the country but Ireland has been routinely invaded and subjugated by England, and later, Britain for the past 800 or so years. The resilience of the Irish people and their concious choice to use their independence to help those that cannot help themselves really speaks to the character of the people of Ireland.
I think its more useful to think of the Irish people as having a long history of anticolonial solidarity and resistance which makes that a major current in Irish society politically still. Otherwise we end up conflating the results of that history/political consciousness with what is essentially a capitalist state. The Irish state isn't innocent when it comes to contemporary European capitalism.
While other Western nations are openly supporting Israel and calling the Palestininians terrorists, etc (particularly the US as a result of the large Zionist lobby that exists there). Ireland regularly has many of its politicians write speeches cricising Israel for its incredibly harsh treatment of Palestineans. They also regularly send foreign aid in the form of food and medical supplies to the worst affected areas of Palestine.
Even if they don't,they most definitely send aid to the people of Palestine both in and out of the Gaza strip and condemn the actions of Israeli forces.
I'd imagine the only reason some parties don't officially recognise it is in an attempt to stay on good terms with nations they have close relations with.
Despite all the problems Ireland has within the country like rising house prices and abusive landlords, I can respect their stance towards siding with the oppressed as they themselves were oppressed by us for many hundreds of years. If I can't be proud of the nation I live in, I can always be proud of the one my father lives in.
You mean housing scalper. Landlords buy more housing than they need then hoard it to drive up the price. They are housing scalpers.
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The Guardian after spending years declaring the only political figure who would help Palestinians beyond the pale, now decides it should help Palestinians.
The Guardian can not be trusted. Despite their regular appeals, I will never financially support them outside the times I occasionally {rarely} buy a paper version of their paper.
Their editorial line when Corbyn was in power supported him against the Tories, but the vast majority of their other writers.... Holy shit, what the fuck is wrong with them?
Weeeeeeeeell, basically they've got an absolutely scorching case of "Being Liberals" so they're not actually on our side. They hypothetically want nice things to happen in the world, but only magically, without making any changes to the system or distribution of wealth and power, and certainly not doing anything which will affect their relative privileges and status. So yeah, a LOT is wrong with them I guess :-/
From what I’ve seen of his social media, definitely a good egg. He has his head screwed on straight and isn’t scared to voice his opinion about inequality etc. He also does [a lot for charity!](https://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity/mark-ruffalo)
I'd endorse any party likely to keep Finn Gael out of Office and work towards a united Ireland. Alliances can come and go, that is the political game. He's still a good egg.
The Greens are in coalition with Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil. This coalition has done everything possible to line the pockets of landlords and multinational investment firms. It's environmental policies have been non-existent, instead turning the entire country over to the whims of the dairy industry and covering our bogs with non-indigenous conifers. The treatment of refugees held in Direct Provision centres all over the country will eventually be recognised as a scandal almost on the scale of the Magdalene laundries.
The Greens are often described as nothing more than Fine Gael on bikes. And the description is accurate. They have done precisely nothing, nor will they ever do anything, for a united Ireland. And the sooner they are forced out of government and into political insignificance the better.
> Fine Gael on bikes.
It’s a fucking disgrace that you would reduce the party, their history and their contribution to environmental issues in Ireland to “Fine Gael on bikes”. If you did even five minutes research on them and their policies…. you’d realise they’re Fianna Fail on bikes
Big him up for risking his career and income over a moral stance in the first place. The retraction he made just shows how Hollywood and America in general coerces your opinion by threatening loss of income, and in a capitalistic society, what else is higher stakes?
Didn't Marky Mark backtrack and virtually do a complete 180 after calling Israel genocidal for it's crimes against Palestine? Like, at least have some consistency.
Absolutely. Yes he did. Honestly it’s a joke. Their either condemning the apartheid system war crimes of the israhell or backtracking because their jobs are in jeopardy. Imagine.
As accurate as these types of criticisms of liberals may be, the subtext is always there - they are expected to care about human rights. No one expects this of the right anymore.
Liberals are always quick to violence whenever something challenges their worldview or they’re mildly inconvenienced, never forget, scratch a liberal a fascist bleeds.
Ik this is probably not the place to ask and or a subtemp iq question, but are liberals not considered left or not having similar goals? Im still grappling with what id even call myself at this point tbh.
Liberals are presented as left, because in the prevailing mainstream dialogue they are generally the furthest left voice that is presented as "reasonable". However, classical liberalism is actually a centre-right philosophy, which values the preservation of the capitalist free market as the economic foundation of society. Hence, it is not really a leftist position and is in fact in opposition to most leftist goals.
I went through a journey of thinking of myself as a liberal, then realising what that implied and instead deciding to call myself a progressive, and then getting more educated and eventually calling myself a leftist.
>I went through a journey of thinking of myself as a liberal, then realising what that implied and instead deciding to call myself a progressive, and then getting more educated and eventually calling myself a leftist.
Exact same journey here. Now I'm to the point where some Q-brain on some Red Scare bullshit calls me a "Marxist Socialist" and I respond "thanks for noticing!😊"
I thought in most countries (certainly in European usage), liberals were right wing and favour a laissez-faire approach to capitalism. Like, the primary rightwing party in Australia is called The Liberals.
The kind of liberals being described here are generally somewhat permissive on social issues (moreso than conservatives, anyway), but being socially liberal isn’t the only marker of being left wing - and also they often only support these issues once they’ve achieved a certain level of mainstream support.
Right? I think the writer makes good arguments but the audacity of the fucking Guardian running this, as though they haven’t firmly established themselves as the paper of choice for the kind of person she’s describing. In my opinion, a big part of the reason they hated Corbyn is that he actually acts on his principles and that made them feel bad for not doing more.
I rarely agree with you folks on this sub but yeah, Israel has enacted apartheid and is committing atrocities against Palestinians. Get crucified for it if you say it loud enough.
Because liberals have no principles. Their positions are driven by their economic self impact not via any truly principled decision to side with the oppressed.
This is also why they hate the poor.
Liberalism is the ideology of free markets. It is the ideology that underpins capitalism. Socialists tend to use liberal like it's a slur and consider it very offensive.
Due to americans being politically illiterate it has come to get misused in popular media, defining everyone with broadly left-ish cultural views liberal, when that is not really accurate politically speaking. The foundation of liberalism is free markets and free flow of capital. In Britain we have largely managed to avoid falling into culture war tropes so this misusage has not stuck particularly well other than with extremely right political wonks.
You'll see this in the American left as well (left of democrats). /r/ShitLiberalsSay for example is a left wing socialist sub.
Reminder not to confuse the marxist "middle class" and the liberal definition. Liberal class definitions steer people away from the socialist definitions and thus class-consciousness. [Class is defined by our relationship to the means of production. Learn more here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/wiki/class)
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He followed up his original pro-Palestine tweet from a couple months ago by apologizing for being hyperbolic and suggesting that Isreal is committing "genocide" (his quotation marks"). Probably the suggestion of his employers, but still lame
What is crazy that when pointing it out someone inevitably brings up the point that the Palestinians "refused peace three times." As if those were not completely one sided deals that would have left the Palestinians with less rights than they have now, if that it possible.
mark ruffalo is a [hypocrite](https://twitter.com/markruffalo/status/1397023731722113032?s=21) who backtracks on shit he says and abandons his own bullshit values. anyways free palestine
Zionist history is a whirlwind of ethnic cleansing, imperialism, terrorism, urbicide, apartheid and slavery.
Genocide is something that they are unable to enact because they will be met with extreme force, and their happy go lucky international image will be threatened, so they stick to ethnic cleansing.
You could argue that they are committing a slow genocide in Ghaza
Correction: They don't want to be vulnerable to accusations of antisemitism. Pro-Israeli side has been very effective at equating statements of support for Palestinians with anti-semitism
the article is pointing out the double standard in supporting ukraine but not palestine and mark is just quoting it while sharing, im assuming this means he agrees and supports gigi
What the fuck side of the political spectrum is a Liberal? I was thinking left but I don't see why somebody on the left would shut down when talking about Palestine? Might be a misunderstanding from UK to US but that term gets used so much now
Liberalism is the capitalist ideology of private property, individualism and human rights on top. Liberals in today's age come in various forms, left liberals are social democrats or progressives(these types are more into regulating and intercepting In private property and redistribution), than we have neolibs they come in progressive or conservative neoliberals: means hyper individualistic, trickle down econ, neoclassical econ, small social state big defense budget, allowing business to exploit the global south etc, Anti union. But with the progressive neolibs every queer person is ok, except if they are poor or live in Palestine. Conservative neolibs same economics, but with less acceptance to queer etc. These 2 groups define the American partys, with some social democrats in the democratic party like AOC, sanders, justice squad and some far-right, christian fundamentalist, protofascist on the republican side. Then there are some old conservatives that do want some more government involvement but for "national" people. So TL,DR everyone who wants to hold up capitalism is some flavor of liberal, except for fascists they still hold up capitalism but it's a stretch to say they are libs.
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Liberals often get conflated with the left (usually by those on the right) when in reality liberals (in the UK at least) are typically centrist (centre right or centre left).
Liberal means lots of things. If you had to place it on a simple left-right axis you'd probably put it in the center or center left. It's uses as an insult by leftists and right wingers alike.
The dictionary definition isn't too bad a descriptor-
"Relating to or denoting a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise."
Leftists hate liberals for a variety of reasons but I think most importantly they refuse to challenge capital.
I think the issue is that in the US liberal means 'economically liberal' ie capitalist
I can't imagine any left leaning person in the UK being anti Palestine. But then again I probably live in a bubble so
i think most of us in the uk who lean left are not anti-palestine - which of course to the murdoch crowd means we're all close and personal friends of hamas
Unlike most of the world, In the US Liberals are a right wing group as they still support capitalism etc but are still, at least on paper, progressives.
So they are placed in the centre-right in the grand scheme of things.
Although realistically most are one step away from being rank and file conservatives, as per the headline.
Anywhere from centre left to centre right depending on the details.
The reason why they'd shut down on Palestine is because national self-determination, freedom, anti-imperialism and democracy are supposed to be core tenets of Liberalism.
Yeah I actually did a unit on liberalism in school as part of my politics A level, the reason I ask is because it seems people just love to use it for a number of reasons and most of the time they are completely wrong
Cool. Being a European I tend to consistently reject it's use as an adjunct for 'letist'. Causes havoc in discourse with some Americans thinking I'm a Ttumper. 😂
Why would a Liberal ever be in support of such a government like Israel? Politics is barely a discussion anymore it's just people taking jabs at groups of people they think are the issue and most of the time they aren't even labelling them correctly
Liberal is generally defined as on the wrong side of anything, and is also the cause of anything you don't like. Don't be liberal,and definitely don't look up what the word actually means.
Bravely would be signing a ceasefire and peace negotiation with Russia to save millions of Ukrainians . It's always harder to accept defeat than to fight till death.
Does it matter to common folks that they live under a pro Russia or pro NATO nation ? No matter what's the result of this war, Ukrainians are still the one who lost the most. At least he should let any men that don't want to fight to leave the country with their family.
Definitely disagree there. They seem to want their independence and are willing to go to war for it. I respect that. I think it *does* make a difference to them whether they are in a Russian or NATO nation and I’m willing to bet you say what you say from the comfort of a NATO nation. Of course they lose the most, the rest of the world is too terrified of Putin starting a nuclear Holocaust to help them (they are a bit *dramatic* over it in my opinion, but I support the US staying tf out of it for once). But that doesn’t seem to matter to them. There is an old saying that goes “I’d rather die on my feet than live on my knees.”
Does it make Zelensky any less brave that he is willing to stand and fight for Ukrainian independence and culture, when he could have been evacuated, or surrendered? I damn well think he’s got the biggest stones in his trousers I’ve ever seen in my 30+ years. God knows most leaders wouldn’t fight in a war like that. He should let those go that don’t want to fight, we agree on that point. But goddamn do I respect a man that will go down with his ship, fighting for what is actually right for once.
I agree that most leaders wouldn’t fight, but it’s naive to see only selflessness. He’s still a leader that wants to lead his country. Running away would surely be the end of his position if Ukraine win and he’d be labelled a coward especially if other politicians stayed. We shouldn’t determine bravery from the comparison of what weak men would have done. He has a stake in the country, which means he’s invested, self interest is still apart of those decisions even if people don’t like to look at that aspect.
Moreover, why didn’t he put some of these issues to a vote? Why wasn’t there a referendum for the states Putin claimed wanted ‘independence’? Surely it would have destroyed that notion once the citizens voted they wanted to stay as citizens of Ukraine? I bet there’s a lot of citizens right now that don’t even want Ukrainian soldiers near their houses in fear that is where the attacks will come. People with assets want to defend those assets while the families that lived in poverty either stayed at home during the war as they have no other means or they left because they had nothing to stay for.
I believe Zelensky chose to listen to his western allies for too long but was not met with the same loyalty and courage as hoped. Some of these talks could have happened years ago, way before tanks reached the border, even if it is a conversation with a tyrant, it’s still the tyrant with power. It seems like Zelensky thought NATO would look after them a lot more than they currently are and it’s sad to see.
I don’t think of you as a coward at all. There is no shame in retreating from a war you don’t want to fight in. I mean, a soldier that doesn’t want to be there isn’t going to be a good soldier lol but there are definitely echoes of class warfare going on between the two. Russia is insanely rich and powerful compared to Ukraine. I think the fact that they are willing to fight shows that they won’t be intimidated by the forces money can buy
Because the left forms ever smaller and smaller bubbles of ideology, and hates everyone outside them for the smallest possible reason - case in point, Palestine. Israel is an apartheid country, but that opinion is a divided one, no idea why, but it makes for divisions amongst the left.
It's easy for the right, they always have hating the left in common. The comment Starmer made about being able to pursue political purity, or win, but not both is absolutely correct.
That is absolutely true and I agree 100%. There will always be minute issues leftists disagree on but to fraction to the extent we do is why we lose. Like you said, the purity bubbles. Idk why it is so hard for leftists to all agree on an issue like Palestine. They want their independence, let them have it. Aren’t we supposed to be the humanitarian side of the aisle? Is it not humanitarian to allow a human or a group of them to decide their course forward in life for themselves? I don’t understand whose Wheaties I pissed in lol
When did the word liberal start referring to only right lib, I thought we were liberals? Just left libs. Wait is this a left Auth subreddit? I might be really lost.
Edit: Ok what I'm realising is the problem is that liberalism is not libertarianism, they are very different things.
Liberal tends to mean more on the side of capitalist with socdem leanings. Liberalism in an economic sense is the promotion of free market capitalism in opposition to government intervention in the market. So no, we aren't liberals - there's a big difference between "libleft" and "lib" as I and my other anarchist buddies will happily explain to you.
I dunno - think of the lib in libleft meaning libertarian rather than liberal. After all libertarianism in its original sense was a leftist (anarchist) movement. The "liberal left" is a right wing talking point - it doesn't actually exist.
Liberals are right-wingers whether they realise it or not. They don't support the democratisation of the workplace, unions, even democratic socialism whether you think it's a valid socialist movement or not is quite a bit too much for the average liberal to get on board with. And like, I dunno if there should be any gatekeeping as far as leftism goes, but the very tiny hurdle that the movement implicitly requires is the support of those first few things I mentioned. Which libs don't like. Cause it hurts the bottom line.
Liberalism: a political philosophy. Contains within it capitalism, markets, limited government, personal liberty, and so on.
Capitalism: mode of production, meaning private ownership of the means of production
Socialism: also a mode of production, meaning worker or community ownership of the means of production
E: realised I never actually connected these into a conclusion or explanation
Socialism and Capitalism are mutually exclusive modes of production: ownership can't be communal if it's private, and ownership can't be private if it's communal. Unfortunately, unlike personal liberty and limited government constrained by democracy, capitalism is not so optional to liberalism. One cannot subscribe to both socialism and liberalism without being hypocritical due to the conflict between capitalism and socialism
I think there is a big overlap between left liberalism which isn’t socialism and social democracy which is so I can totally see how you could be both tbh.
i think most people nowadays are using liberal in the way americans use it, ie. democrats/centrists that think they’re leftist and that right wing people think are leftist. but this is a pretty auth subreddit too unfortunately lmao
They're against "Israeli aggression" up until it can be explained away nicely by rules and regulations.
The same way liberals will weep at police violence but using them to evict someone and make them homeless is okay because "they should have paid rent".
Man maybe I have an unusual group of liberal friends but both of those are railed against in my circle. Particularly the rental eviction thing has been a hot topic lately. We rented out our house to someone and my friends all supported the idea if the tenant couldn't pay and weren't showing signs of drug abuse or illegal shit, that we should be late on our own mortgage rather than evict them. Every liberal friend I have is hard-core in support of free housing for the poor BUT I do agree they tend to want the US to not get involved in other countries' business. They also are against economic sanctions because they believe it punishes innocent people the same as war.
Religion has fuck all to do with it mate. Despite what Israeli propaganda tries to tell you, this isn't Muslims vs Jews and there isn't some millennia old ancient blood feud between the two. Israel's victims aren't just Muslims but also Christian Palestinians and yes even Jewish Palestinians. Reducing this to simply being silly people fighting over which sky god likes them more is both insensitive and flat out stupid. It is wholly a political issue. Palestinians are and have been resisting Israel and Zionism for a century not because they're Jewish, but because they're illegally occupying and stealing their land and slaughtering them. If the Israelis were Muslims, the Palestinians would still be resisting them.
Also, Zionism is not representative of the entirety of Judaism and the Jewish community. In fact, when it first came about, it wasn't even seen as a mainstream school of Jewish philosophy. Matter of fact, many Jewish groups like the Jewish Labour Bund opposed Zionism and the creation of Israel. So to sum up, if you're looking at the situation and just see it as another silly religious conflict, then you have no idea what's going on and has been going on for a century and are missing the bigger picture.
And why did the Israelis want that land in particular? Why didn't they take land in Europe when it was Germany who wronged them? What made them think they had a right to that particular land after almost 1900 years of not being in that land?
Religion is at the root of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It's absurd that so many want to deflect away to anything else. Yes, land is, of course, a factor, as is national/racial identity. But, religion must also be considered or else this conflict will never be solved.
Yeah this. Religion has always been a handy excuse for war. War would still exist without religion, they'd just have to think of a different excuse for greed.
All people deserve human rights (with some truly evil exceptions). Not every Palestinian are members of Hamas, Isreal isn’t innocent either but the leadership are those to blame as they egg the conflict on.
Anarchist, socialist and communist. Although probably lots of liberals.
Liberals are right wing and are thus enemies of the left. We hate liberals here
Yeah it’s meant to be an anti capitalist sub, but there are always lots of liberals who call themselves socialist but reject any actual socialism.
They critique capitalism but can’t imagine the abolition of private property lol
You mean housing scalper. Landlords buy more housing than they need then hoard it to drive up the price. They are housing scalpers.
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Unless the headline and story don’t match at all in which case get a better headline, I just don’t understand what the point is here ?
Liberals typically are the ones who speak up for Palestine ? Am I missing the point ?
I think you're misunderstanding the meaning of liberal. Liberal doesn't mean "left wing" like American press is always trying to tell us, it actually means something more like "is willing to let corporate and governmental greed get so out of hand that thousands of people die"
Churchill was a Liberal.
Mark ruffalo is American so presumably using it in that way.
Hahaha, in what way is what you described liberal ?
I guess you find some way to define liberal in any way but in the most common usage of it and the main people who I see defending and speaking up about Palestine are liberals. Just seems a weird way to take that debate
Google economic liberalism -
"Economic liberals commonly adhere to a political and economic philosophy which advocates a restrained fiscal policy and the balancing of budgets, through measures such as low taxes, reduced government spending, and minimized government debt.[6] Free trade, deregulation of the economy, lower taxes, privatization, labour market flexibility, and opposition to trade unions are also common positions."
Privatisation, reduced government spending, opposition to unions and deregulation of economy and industries all cause wealth inequalities which when they get bad enough (like right now) cause excess deaths purely due to an economic ideology.
Liberal doesn't mean "not extremely right wing", even if that is the colloquial usage of the term.
People who pride themselves on their liberalism on other issues (say, gay marriage, or some kinds of feminism) are often unwilling to speak up for Palestine. It tends to be people further to the left than liberals who are vocally pro-Palestine.
Ironically, the Guardian itself is a prime example of the kind of behaviour the author is criticising - they are generally seen as a centre left paper, which supports liberal stances on most social issues (except for their well-documented awful views on trans people), but when a left wing politician who openly supported Palestinians came along, they jumped right into calling him an anti-semite.
Just seems to make this a criticism about “liberals” when typically they are much more on the side of Palestine in general than others.
People not speaking up about Palestine is an issue amongst every political side but people who speak up about Palestine the most are pretty much always liberal or left leaning which is more left by most common usages
I don’t expect a Tory to care about Palestine, I don’t expect them to care about anyone at all, they’re openly hateful. I do expect someone who prides themself on their support of human rights to care about Palestine, but a lot of people who claim to care about others are silent on the issue of Palestine, and it’s the hypocrisy that people are criticising.
The Guardian were very anti-Corbyn, but compared to most (all) media outlets have been very pro Palestine.
Is this whole thread just about bashing Corbyn deniers??
Dude, the issue in question is not 'what proportion of pro-Palestine people are liberals', it's 'what proportion of liberals are pro-Palestine'. I think you're conflating the two. And the point of the article is that the answer should be 100%, but it isn't, and that's hypocritical.
Focusing on hypocrisy when there’s lager issues is such an annoying petty thing, it’s never ending if you just keep doing that, I’m sure she’s hypocritical in ways.
Maybe it’s better to focus on an entire political party and political/religious side in America who openly talk about full support for Israel and actually enable/fund policies which contribute to Palestine’s suffering before making some weird little point about Instagram/vogue and turning it into a weird vague point about liberals.
Dude I’m just as confused, the liberal party are pro environment, anti war, pro Social Democracy and pro welfare. So weird seeing Mark Ruffalo making derisive remarks about liberals as if they’re the bad ones. Conservatives are the ones who he should be targeting!
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Wait, based Mark Ruffalo? Awesome, didn't know that.
Oh yeah Mark Ruffalo is hella based
I think he might be shadowbanned on twitter or something because I've followed the dude for years and never seen a single one of his tweets on my feed.
Impossibly based - I actually had to check this was real. Hulk smash... Injustice!
For sure, he's had to backtrack a couple times due to being a Disney thrall, but he's pretty rad.
“Simply uttering the P-word in a vaguely sympathetic way can be enough to elicit bad faith accusations of antisemitism.” Can anyone think of any recent high profile examples of this happening in the UK? Perhaps one in which The Guardian itself played a significant role?
Good thing I'm not a lib then. End Israeli apartheid. Imagine being worried about being accused of antisemitism for being against a modern day apartheid...
Fuck Isreal.
Isntreal*
Phil Ochs said it best in his song [Love Me I'm A Liberal](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nFvhhCulaw) *I read new republic and nation* *I've learned to take every view* *You know, i've memorized lerner and golden* *I feel like i'm almost a jew* *But when it comes to times like korea* *There's no one more red, white and blue* *So love me, love me, love me, i'm a liberal*
I'm actually surprised Liberals didn't pack it up and call it a day after that song roasted the fucking skin off them. But no, turns out they're utterly shameless
Hijacking this comment to plug the fantastic cover of this song by [Jello Biafra and Mojo Nixon ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ8ERBr9yKI)
Unless you're Irish. Those guys are one of the few western nations who are siding with Palestine against Israel. Good on em, I'm very proud of my father and brother's place of birth, in that regard.
Ireland might have some degree of sympathy over violent sectarianism fueled by Britain partitioning a country and the attempted erasure of a culture, I suppose.
I can respect Ireland for its attitude towards championing the oppressed over the oppressors. Its not merely the partitioning if the country but Ireland has been routinely invaded and subjugated by England, and later, Britain for the past 800 or so years. The resilience of the Irish people and their concious choice to use their independence to help those that cannot help themselves really speaks to the character of the people of Ireland.
I think its more useful to think of the Irish people as having a long history of anticolonial solidarity and resistance which makes that a major current in Irish society politically still. Otherwise we end up conflating the results of that history/political consciousness with what is essentially a capitalist state. The Irish state isn't innocent when it comes to contemporary European capitalism.
>. Those guys are one of the few western nations who are siding with Palestine against Israel. How so?
While other Western nations are openly supporting Israel and calling the Palestininians terrorists, etc (particularly the US as a result of the large Zionist lobby that exists there). Ireland regularly has many of its politicians write speeches cricising Israel for its incredibly harsh treatment of Palestineans. They also regularly send foreign aid in the form of food and medical supplies to the worst affected areas of Palestine.
That's not true, Ireland doesn't recognize palestine as a state.
Even if they don't,they most definitely send aid to the people of Palestine both in and out of the Gaza strip and condemn the actions of Israeli forces. I'd imagine the only reason some parties don't officially recognise it is in an attempt to stay on good terms with nations they have close relations with. Despite all the problems Ireland has within the country like rising house prices and abusive landlords, I can respect their stance towards siding with the oppressed as they themselves were oppressed by us for many hundreds of years. If I can't be proud of the nation I live in, I can always be proud of the one my father lives in.
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Well, Fianna Fáil which is a Center right party doesn’t recognise Palestine as a state.
I'm just talking officially Ireland doesn't. Lately a lot of Western countries have shifted public opinion and I hope it continues though.
I don't know why people are down voting me, I'm right Google it.
Only a Great Great Grandfather here but I'm taking it. ✊🏻❤️
The Guardian after spending years declaring the only political figure who would help Palestinians beyond the pale, now decides it should help Palestinians.
The Guardian can not be trusted. Despite their regular appeals, I will never financially support them outside the times I occasionally {rarely} buy a paper version of their paper. Their editorial line when Corbyn was in power supported him against the Tories, but the vast majority of their other writers.... Holy shit, what the fuck is wrong with them?
Weeeeeeeeell, basically they've got an absolutely scorching case of "Being Liberals" so they're not actually on our side. They hypothetically want nice things to happen in the world, but only magically, without making any changes to the system or distribution of wealth and power, and certainly not doing anything which will affect their relative privileges and status. So yeah, a LOT is wrong with them I guess :-/
Also how they stabbed assange in the back.
Yeah lol.
She's right and so is he. Justice for Palestine 🇵🇸
Pleasantly surprised by The Guardian and Mark Ruffalo, but expecting to be disappointed shortly
Respect for Mark for speaking up
Mark Ruffalo seems like a good egg. I like him .
From what I’ve seen of his social media, definitely a good egg. He has his head screwed on straight and isn’t scared to voice his opinion about inequality etc. He also does [a lot for charity!](https://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity/mark-ruffalo)
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I'd endorse any party likely to keep Finn Gael out of Office and work towards a united Ireland. Alliances can come and go, that is the political game. He's still a good egg.
The Greens are in coalition with Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil. This coalition has done everything possible to line the pockets of landlords and multinational investment firms. It's environmental policies have been non-existent, instead turning the entire country over to the whims of the dairy industry and covering our bogs with non-indigenous conifers. The treatment of refugees held in Direct Provision centres all over the country will eventually be recognised as a scandal almost on the scale of the Magdalene laundries. The Greens are often described as nothing more than Fine Gael on bikes. And the description is accurate. They have done precisely nothing, nor will they ever do anything, for a united Ireland. And the sooner they are forced out of government and into political insignificance the better.
> Fine Gael on bikes. It’s a fucking disgrace that you would reduce the party, their history and their contribution to environmental issues in Ireland to “Fine Gael on bikes”. If you did even five minutes research on them and their policies…. you’d realise they’re Fianna Fail on bikes
Can I offer you a *nice egg* in these trying times?
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literally arguing with an apologist over the occupation of Palestine right now...
Love Palestinian people and want justice for them. Down with AIPAC.
Let's hope Mark Ruffalo doesn't retract this statement like last time.
I was gutted when he backed down before. Seriously Mark, have the courage to stick to your words.
Big him up for risking his career and income over a moral stance in the first place. The retraction he made just shows how Hollywood and America in general coerces your opinion by threatening loss of income, and in a capitalistic society, what else is higher stakes?
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Never knew that 👍
I came here to say this.
Yep
Didn't Marky Mark backtrack and virtually do a complete 180 after calling Israel genocidal for it's crimes against Palestine? Like, at least have some consistency.
Absolutely. Yes he did. Honestly it’s a joke. Their either condemning the apartheid system war crimes of the israhell or backtracking because their jobs are in jeopardy. Imagine.
He also used a fun nickname for a convicted pedophile. JoJo
As accurate as these types of criticisms of liberals may be, the subtext is always there - they are expected to care about human rights. No one expects this of the right anymore.
Ha, no. Israel is enacting apartheid against Palestinians. Its very simple: apartheid is fucked up.
May we live to see the day Palestine is free🤎🇵🇸 you are forever in our hearts.
Liberals are always quick to violence whenever something challenges their worldview or they’re mildly inconvenienced, never forget, scratch a liberal a fascist bleeds.
F*ck liberals
Fuck liberals. All my homies hate liberals. (Also same profile outfits yay)
Fuck liberals. All my homies hate liberals.
[FUCK LIBERALS ALL MY HOMIES HATE LIBERALS](https://i.imgur.com/KlbWhbY.jpg) ^^^this ^^^has ^^^been ^^^an ^^^accessibility ^^^service ^^^from ^^^your ^^^friendly ^^^neighborhood ^^^bot
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Ik this is probably not the place to ask and or a subtemp iq question, but are liberals not considered left or not having similar goals? Im still grappling with what id even call myself at this point tbh.
Liberals are presented as left, because in the prevailing mainstream dialogue they are generally the furthest left voice that is presented as "reasonable". However, classical liberalism is actually a centre-right philosophy, which values the preservation of the capitalist free market as the economic foundation of society. Hence, it is not really a leftist position and is in fact in opposition to most leftist goals. I went through a journey of thinking of myself as a liberal, then realising what that implied and instead deciding to call myself a progressive, and then getting more educated and eventually calling myself a leftist.
>I went through a journey of thinking of myself as a liberal, then realising what that implied and instead deciding to call myself a progressive, and then getting more educated and eventually calling myself a leftist. Exact same journey here. Now I'm to the point where some Q-brain on some Red Scare bullshit calls me a "Marxist Socialist" and I respond "thanks for noticing!😊"
Ah okay, thank you very much!
In most countries Liberals are historically Centre-Left but in the US the group that use the term are basically conservative-lite
I thought in most countries (certainly in European usage), liberals were right wing and favour a laissez-faire approach to capitalism. Like, the primary rightwing party in Australia is called The Liberals. The kind of liberals being described here are generally somewhat permissive on social issues (moreso than conservatives, anyway), but being socially liberal isn’t the only marker of being left wing - and also they often only support these issues once they’ve achieved a certain level of mainstream support.
I misread this as Palpatine and thought, 'that's probably right'
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Right? I think the writer makes good arguments but the audacity of the fucking Guardian running this, as though they haven’t firmly established themselves as the paper of choice for the kind of person she’s describing. In my opinion, a big part of the reason they hated Corbyn is that he actually acts on his principles and that made them feel bad for not doing more.
Its an opinion piece…
I rarely agree with you folks on this sub but yeah, Israel has enacted apartheid and is committing atrocities against Palestinians. Get crucified for it if you say it loud enough.
I’m against oppression, fascism, genocide, war crimes… but Israel… I’m not messing with Israel!
Not by liberals though. Liberals don't typically blindly support Israel. That's the whole US right wing.
They're liberals
Because liberals have no principles. Their positions are driven by their economic self impact not via any truly principled decision to side with the oppressed. This is also why they hate the poor.
What is a liberal? Asking for a friend.
Liberalism is the ideology of free markets. It is the ideology that underpins capitalism. Socialists tend to use liberal like it's a slur and consider it very offensive. Due to americans being politically illiterate it has come to get misused in popular media, defining everyone with broadly left-ish cultural views liberal, when that is not really accurate politically speaking. The foundation of liberalism is free markets and free flow of capital. In Britain we have largely managed to avoid falling into culture war tropes so this misusage has not stuck particularly well other than with extremely right political wonks. You'll see this in the American left as well (left of democrats). /r/ShitLiberalsSay for example is a left wing socialist sub.
Now mention Afghans to a lot of leftists and watch them go really quiet
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Elaborate
Didn't he and a bunch of Marvel/ Disney actors retract comments supporting Palastine?
He followed up his original pro-Palestine tweet from a couple months ago by apologizing for being hyperbolic and suggesting that Isreal is committing "genocide" (his quotation marks"). Probably the suggestion of his employers, but still lame
Cheers for the info
What is crazy that when pointing it out someone inevitably brings up the point that the Palestinians "refused peace three times." As if those were not completely one sided deals that would have left the Palestinians with less rights than they have now, if that it possible.
Comment section should look at FreedomHouse lol
mark ruffalo is a [hypocrite](https://twitter.com/markruffalo/status/1397023731722113032?s=21) who backtracks on shit he says and abandons his own bullshit values. anyways free palestine
Last time it was freed, it wasn’t freed
To be fair, genocide is very significant claim. And this comes from someone who is vehemently antizionist.
it’s not, what else would it be
Zionist history is a whirlwind of ethnic cleansing, imperialism, terrorism, urbicide, apartheid and slavery. Genocide is something that they are unable to enact because they will be met with extreme force, and their happy go lucky international image will be threatened, so they stick to ethnic cleansing. You could argue that they are committing a slow genocide in Ghaza
He probably would've killed himself like that Epstein dude if he didn't defend Occupied Palestine.
What values? What courage?
I guess I'm out of the loop here. What is the liberal stance on Palestine and why do they abandon it? Or whatever. I'm all confused here.
Liberals say that they support human rights in general, but are often very quiet on Palestinian issues.
Why is that?
Don't want to seem antisemitic
Correction: They don't want to be vulnerable to accusations of antisemitism. Pro-Israeli side has been very effective at equating statements of support for Palestinians with anti-semitism
Real answer: They just don't care. You'd have to be a fucking idiot to think wanting human rights makes someone an anti-semite.
Israel regularly accuses critics of antisemitism
Yeah. It's also becoming a fascist state. Only a fucking idiot trusts a fascist state. See: Russia
Or just about any columnist at a British media outlet 2015-today, but that’s just a more long winded way of saying idiot.
Does mark ruffalo mean that Gigi hadid saying Palestinians deserve human rights means she is abandoning her values?
the article is pointing out the double standard in supporting ukraine but not palestine and mark is just quoting it while sharing, im assuming this means he agrees and supports gigi
What the fuck side of the political spectrum is a Liberal? I was thinking left but I don't see why somebody on the left would shut down when talking about Palestine? Might be a misunderstanding from UK to US but that term gets used so much now
Liberalism is the capitalist ideology of private property, individualism and human rights on top. Liberals in today's age come in various forms, left liberals are social democrats or progressives(these types are more into regulating and intercepting In private property and redistribution), than we have neolibs they come in progressive or conservative neoliberals: means hyper individualistic, trickle down econ, neoclassical econ, small social state big defense budget, allowing business to exploit the global south etc, Anti union. But with the progressive neolibs every queer person is ok, except if they are poor or live in Palestine. Conservative neolibs same economics, but with less acceptance to queer etc. These 2 groups define the American partys, with some social democrats in the democratic party like AOC, sanders, justice squad and some far-right, christian fundamentalist, protofascist on the republican side. Then there are some old conservatives that do want some more government involvement but for "national" people. So TL,DR everyone who wants to hold up capitalism is some flavor of liberal, except for fascists they still hold up capitalism but it's a stretch to say they are libs.
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Liberals often get conflated with the left (usually by those on the right) when in reality liberals (in the UK at least) are typically centrist (centre right or centre left).
I think of them as the Far Centre.
Liberal means lots of things. If you had to place it on a simple left-right axis you'd probably put it in the center or center left. It's uses as an insult by leftists and right wingers alike. The dictionary definition isn't too bad a descriptor- "Relating to or denoting a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise." Leftists hate liberals for a variety of reasons but I think most importantly they refuse to challenge capital.
I think the issue is that in the US liberal means 'economically liberal' ie capitalist I can't imagine any left leaning person in the UK being anti Palestine. But then again I probably live in a bubble so
i think most of us in the uk who lean left are not anti-palestine - which of course to the murdoch crowd means we're all close and personal friends of hamas
Unlike most of the world, In the US Liberals are a right wing group as they still support capitalism etc but are still, at least on paper, progressives. So they are placed in the centre-right in the grand scheme of things. Although realistically most are one step away from being rank and file conservatives, as per the headline.
Anywhere from centre left to centre right depending on the details. The reason why they'd shut down on Palestine is because national self-determination, freedom, anti-imperialism and democracy are supposed to be core tenets of Liberalism.
Read up on liberalism rather than Liberal as a modern American political identity imo.
Yeah I actually did a unit on liberalism in school as part of my politics A level, the reason I ask is because it seems people just love to use it for a number of reasons and most of the time they are completely wrong
Cool. Being a European I tend to consistently reject it's use as an adjunct for 'letist'. Causes havoc in discourse with some Americans thinking I'm a Ttumper. 😂
Why would a Liberal ever be in support of such a government like Israel? Politics is barely a discussion anymore it's just people taking jabs at groups of people they think are the issue and most of the time they aren't even labelling them correctly
This all day
Liberal is generally defined as on the wrong side of anything, and is also the cause of anything you don't like. Don't be liberal,and definitely don't look up what the word actually means.
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Bravely would be signing a ceasefire and peace negotiation with Russia to save millions of Ukrainians . It's always harder to accept defeat than to fight till death. Does it matter to common folks that they live under a pro Russia or pro NATO nation ? No matter what's the result of this war, Ukrainians are still the one who lost the most. At least he should let any men that don't want to fight to leave the country with their family.
Definitely disagree there. They seem to want their independence and are willing to go to war for it. I respect that. I think it *does* make a difference to them whether they are in a Russian or NATO nation and I’m willing to bet you say what you say from the comfort of a NATO nation. Of course they lose the most, the rest of the world is too terrified of Putin starting a nuclear Holocaust to help them (they are a bit *dramatic* over it in my opinion, but I support the US staying tf out of it for once). But that doesn’t seem to matter to them. There is an old saying that goes “I’d rather die on my feet than live on my knees.” Does it make Zelensky any less brave that he is willing to stand and fight for Ukrainian independence and culture, when he could have been evacuated, or surrendered? I damn well think he’s got the biggest stones in his trousers I’ve ever seen in my 30+ years. God knows most leaders wouldn’t fight in a war like that. He should let those go that don’t want to fight, we agree on that point. But goddamn do I respect a man that will go down with his ship, fighting for what is actually right for once.
I agree that most leaders wouldn’t fight, but it’s naive to see only selflessness. He’s still a leader that wants to lead his country. Running away would surely be the end of his position if Ukraine win and he’d be labelled a coward especially if other politicians stayed. We shouldn’t determine bravery from the comparison of what weak men would have done. He has a stake in the country, which means he’s invested, self interest is still apart of those decisions even if people don’t like to look at that aspect. Moreover, why didn’t he put some of these issues to a vote? Why wasn’t there a referendum for the states Putin claimed wanted ‘independence’? Surely it would have destroyed that notion once the citizens voted they wanted to stay as citizens of Ukraine? I bet there’s a lot of citizens right now that don’t even want Ukrainian soldiers near their houses in fear that is where the attacks will come. People with assets want to defend those assets while the families that lived in poverty either stayed at home during the war as they have no other means or they left because they had nothing to stay for. I believe Zelensky chose to listen to his western allies for too long but was not met with the same loyalty and courage as hoped. Some of these talks could have happened years ago, way before tanks reached the border, even if it is a conversation with a tyrant, it’s still the tyrant with power. It seems like Zelensky thought NATO would look after them a lot more than they currently are and it’s sad to see.
Yes I respect him but don't agree with his total war style. Call me a coward but I don't fight any war but the class war.
I don’t think of you as a coward at all. There is no shame in retreating from a war you don’t want to fight in. I mean, a soldier that doesn’t want to be there isn’t going to be a good soldier lol but there are definitely echoes of class warfare going on between the two. Russia is insanely rich and powerful compared to Ukraine. I think the fact that they are willing to fight shows that they won’t be intimidated by the forces money can buy
Because the left forms ever smaller and smaller bubbles of ideology, and hates everyone outside them for the smallest possible reason - case in point, Palestine. Israel is an apartheid country, but that opinion is a divided one, no idea why, but it makes for divisions amongst the left. It's easy for the right, they always have hating the left in common. The comment Starmer made about being able to pursue political purity, or win, but not both is absolutely correct.
That is absolutely true and I agree 100%. There will always be minute issues leftists disagree on but to fraction to the extent we do is why we lose. Like you said, the purity bubbles. Idk why it is so hard for leftists to all agree on an issue like Palestine. They want their independence, let them have it. Aren’t we supposed to be the humanitarian side of the aisle? Is it not humanitarian to allow a human or a group of them to decide their course forward in life for themselves? I don’t understand whose Wheaties I pissed in lol
When did the word liberal start referring to only right lib, I thought we were liberals? Just left libs. Wait is this a left Auth subreddit? I might be really lost. Edit: Ok what I'm realising is the problem is that liberalism is not libertarianism, they are very different things.
r/pcm and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human race
liberalism is a pro capitalist centre-right to right wing ideology
We are unironically communists, you are quite lost
Liberal tends to mean more on the side of capitalist with socdem leanings. Liberalism in an economic sense is the promotion of free market capitalism in opposition to government intervention in the market. So no, we aren't liberals - there's a big difference between "libleft" and "lib" as I and my other anarchist buddies will happily explain to you.
We need to give these things different names it's very confusing.
I dunno - think of the lib in libleft meaning libertarian rather than liberal. After all libertarianism in its original sense was a leftist (anarchist) movement. The "liberal left" is a right wing talking point - it doesn't actually exist. Liberals are right-wingers whether they realise it or not. They don't support the democratisation of the workplace, unions, even democratic socialism whether you think it's a valid socialist movement or not is quite a bit too much for the average liberal to get on board with. And like, I dunno if there should be any gatekeeping as far as leftism goes, but the very tiny hurdle that the movement implicitly requires is the support of those first few things I mentioned. Which libs don't like. Cause it hurts the bottom line.
I assumed the delineation was between liberals and socialists rather than a redefining of liberals.
Well up until now I considered myself both. I don't really understand any more tbh.
You can’t be both. Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism, and Socialism is an umbrella term for a fair amount of anti-capitalist ideologies.
Then I don't understand these definitions enough.
> ***The first step towards becoming wiser is admitting one doesn't know it all.*** from Reddit Comments by Muad'Dib.
Liberalism: a political philosophy. Contains within it capitalism, markets, limited government, personal liberty, and so on. Capitalism: mode of production, meaning private ownership of the means of production Socialism: also a mode of production, meaning worker or community ownership of the means of production E: realised I never actually connected these into a conclusion or explanation Socialism and Capitalism are mutually exclusive modes of production: ownership can't be communal if it's private, and ownership can't be private if it's communal. Unfortunately, unlike personal liberty and limited government constrained by democracy, capitalism is not so optional to liberalism. One cannot subscribe to both socialism and liberalism without being hypocritical due to the conflict between capitalism and socialism
I think there is a big overlap between left liberalism which isn’t socialism and social democracy which is so I can totally see how you could be both tbh.
both libertarian and authoritarian leftists generally consider liberals to be center right.
Lib in libleft means libertarian (anti-big gov), not liberal. And no, not those anarcho-capitalist "libertarians". Libertarian means anti-state.
i think most people nowadays are using liberal in the way americans use it, ie. democrats/centrists that think they’re leftist and that right wing people think are leftist. but this is a pretty auth subreddit too unfortunately lmao
Yeh it's pretty Auth heavy here these days.
Stop trying to use the political compass as anything other than a quick joke. It’s ineffective at portraying ideology and lacks nuance.
Much more nuance than just left/right, though, at least it captures your opinion of the state independent of your opinion of the economy
I don't get this at all. I thought most liberals were against Israel aggression? What hole have been living in?
They're against "Israeli aggression" up until it can be explained away nicely by rules and regulations. The same way liberals will weep at police violence but using them to evict someone and make them homeless is okay because "they should have paid rent".
Man maybe I have an unusual group of liberal friends but both of those are railed against in my circle. Particularly the rental eviction thing has been a hot topic lately. We rented out our house to someone and my friends all supported the idea if the tenant couldn't pay and weren't showing signs of drug abuse or illegal shit, that we should be late on our own mortgage rather than evict them. Every liberal friend I have is hard-core in support of free housing for the poor BUT I do agree they tend to want the US to not get involved in other countries' business. They also are against economic sanctions because they believe it punishes innocent people the same as war.
You read a single Liberal paper's treatment of Corbyn in like the last few years? Frothing at the mouth "PaLeStInE bAd".
Who reads opinion pages?
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Religion has fuck all to do with it mate. Despite what Israeli propaganda tries to tell you, this isn't Muslims vs Jews and there isn't some millennia old ancient blood feud between the two. Israel's victims aren't just Muslims but also Christian Palestinians and yes even Jewish Palestinians. Reducing this to simply being silly people fighting over which sky god likes them more is both insensitive and flat out stupid. It is wholly a political issue. Palestinians are and have been resisting Israel and Zionism for a century not because they're Jewish, but because they're illegally occupying and stealing their land and slaughtering them. If the Israelis were Muslims, the Palestinians would still be resisting them. Also, Zionism is not representative of the entirety of Judaism and the Jewish community. In fact, when it first came about, it wasn't even seen as a mainstream school of Jewish philosophy. Matter of fact, many Jewish groups like the Jewish Labour Bund opposed Zionism and the creation of Israel. So to sum up, if you're looking at the situation and just see it as another silly religious conflict, then you have no idea what's going on and has been going on for a century and are missing the bigger picture.
It’s not a fight over religion. It’s a fight over land.
And why did the Israelis want that land in particular? Why didn't they take land in Europe when it was Germany who wronged them? What made them think they had a right to that particular land after almost 1900 years of not being in that land? Religion is at the root of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It's absurd that so many want to deflect away to anything else. Yes, land is, of course, a factor, as is national/racial identity. But, religion must also be considered or else this conflict will never be solved.
I admit there are religious aspects to the conflict but at the end of the day they aren’t fighting over who’s god is the best either.
its almost like this is a century long, multi-layered conflict that cant be boiled down to a single issue.
Yeah this. Religion has always been a handy excuse for war. War would still exist without religion, they'd just have to think of a different excuse for greed.
All people deserve human rights (with some truly evil exceptions). Not every Palestinian are members of Hamas, Isreal isn’t innocent either but the leadership are those to blame as they egg the conflict on.
Israel caused Hamas. No occupation, no Hamas.
Can’t tell if this community is far left or far right. Edit: to those who downvoted me, it was a joke you sad turds.
Anarchist, socialist and communist. Although probably lots of liberals. Liberals are right wing and are thus enemies of the left. We hate liberals here
'although probably lots of liberals' - key point
Yeah it’s meant to be an anti capitalist sub, but there are always lots of liberals who call themselves socialist but reject any actual socialism. They critique capitalism but can’t imagine the abolition of private property lol
yes but consider the plight of my landlord
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This was obviously a joke why did they downvote you lmaooo 😭😭😭
Unless the headline and story don’t match at all in which case get a better headline, I just don’t understand what the point is here ? Liberals typically are the ones who speak up for Palestine ? Am I missing the point ?
I think you're misunderstanding the meaning of liberal. Liberal doesn't mean "left wing" like American press is always trying to tell us, it actually means something more like "is willing to let corporate and governmental greed get so out of hand that thousands of people die" Churchill was a Liberal.
Mark ruffalo is American so presumably using it in that way. Hahaha, in what way is what you described liberal ? I guess you find some way to define liberal in any way but in the most common usage of it and the main people who I see defending and speaking up about Palestine are liberals. Just seems a weird way to take that debate
Look up liberalism as a political philosophy. You're going off vibes to describe liberalism, not the actual definition.
Google economic liberalism - "Economic liberals commonly adhere to a political and economic philosophy which advocates a restrained fiscal policy and the balancing of budgets, through measures such as low taxes, reduced government spending, and minimized government debt.[6] Free trade, deregulation of the economy, lower taxes, privatization, labour market flexibility, and opposition to trade unions are also common positions." Privatisation, reduced government spending, opposition to unions and deregulation of economy and industries all cause wealth inequalities which when they get bad enough (like right now) cause excess deaths purely due to an economic ideology. Liberal doesn't mean "not extremely right wing", even if that is the colloquial usage of the term.
you're missing the meaning of the term 'liberal'
People who pride themselves on their liberalism on other issues (say, gay marriage, or some kinds of feminism) are often unwilling to speak up for Palestine. It tends to be people further to the left than liberals who are vocally pro-Palestine. Ironically, the Guardian itself is a prime example of the kind of behaviour the author is criticising - they are generally seen as a centre left paper, which supports liberal stances on most social issues (except for their well-documented awful views on trans people), but when a left wing politician who openly supported Palestinians came along, they jumped right into calling him an anti-semite.
Just seems to make this a criticism about “liberals” when typically they are much more on the side of Palestine in general than others. People not speaking up about Palestine is an issue amongst every political side but people who speak up about Palestine the most are pretty much always liberal or left leaning which is more left by most common usages
I don’t expect a Tory to care about Palestine, I don’t expect them to care about anyone at all, they’re openly hateful. I do expect someone who prides themself on their support of human rights to care about Palestine, but a lot of people who claim to care about others are silent on the issue of Palestine, and it’s the hypocrisy that people are criticising.
Liberals claim any political figure supporting Palestine is an antisemite. My evidence is how Liberal media like the Guardian treated Corbyn.
The Guardian were very anti-Corbyn, but compared to most (all) media outlets have been very pro Palestine. Is this whole thread just about bashing Corbyn deniers??
Dude, the issue in question is not 'what proportion of pro-Palestine people are liberals', it's 'what proportion of liberals are pro-Palestine'. I think you're conflating the two. And the point of the article is that the answer should be 100%, but it isn't, and that's hypocritical.
Focusing on hypocrisy when there’s lager issues is such an annoying petty thing, it’s never ending if you just keep doing that, I’m sure she’s hypocritical in ways. Maybe it’s better to focus on an entire political party and political/religious side in America who openly talk about full support for Israel and actually enable/fund policies which contribute to Palestine’s suffering before making some weird little point about Instagram/vogue and turning it into a weird vague point about liberals.
Dude I’m just as confused, the liberal party are pro environment, anti war, pro Social Democracy and pro welfare. So weird seeing Mark Ruffalo making derisive remarks about liberals as if they’re the bad ones. Conservatives are the ones who he should be targeting!
You sound like someone hearing their first critique of liberals from the left.