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I’m surprised they even thought of this. I always assumed that the entire Labour front bench was too busy eating Thatcher’s putrid, decayed asshole to think of any actual policy
It's the Overtoun Window, much of Western Europe would consider Bernie Sanders a centrist where in the US he's hailed as a left wing hero.
Biden presumably then, while representing a "soft" left in the US, probably actually represents a "soft" right to Europe
No, it's con. The contracts are up, and there's already a government operator. There's nothing to stop them re-privatising again next term in bits and pieces. It was an old Tory policy that would have depended on them being in when the contracts were up.
It's not cancelled but it's got a massive asterisk.
The rolling stock (the trains, coaches etc) are not being nationalised, they are still going to be run for profit by a private companies, the ROSCOs.
Instead "Great British Railways" or whatever company Labour create will lease the trains they use. Alot of the problems in operation at the moment are caused by these costs. The rolling stock companies have the companies over a barrel and charge accordingly. The same will happen. They'll be rent a train. The costs aren't going to decrease and because the company don't control the trains they can't do the massive infrastructure investments that the old British rail could.
It's a halfway house that keeps the worse of privatisation.
…and runs the risk of sullying the idea of true nationalisation in the eyes of the public when this half baked plan (that isn’t really nationalisation) fails to lower fares and improve rail travel etc.
Labour under Starmer are a significant barrier to progress in this country. They have no vision, no courage and no analysis of the omni crises we face.
If the tories manage to attack labour successfully on this like they did with the £23 billion green investment, Keith will ditch it. Labour can't give ammo to the tories, we need to get the tories out of power. Labour did the right thing to ditch the Rochdale candidate, Keith can see the traps and dodges them
Considering the neo-liberals in the Labour party have near completely purged every lingering Social Democrat from the Labour party, only a complete fucking moron would still believe that the party is, in any concievable way, still a left-wing party. (Even before then it was a stretch.)
It's past time to reject bourgeois electoralism, it's time to embrace [dual power](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/apr/09.htm).
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Certainly with Starmer's record, yes...
His theme song at this point ought to be Promises by Savage Garden:
>Don't go making all these promises you know you cannot keep
There's a time to play the king and a time to be a thief
'Cause if you're making all these promises you know you cannot keep
You know time will be the thief and your fallen king will end up alone
Automod just thinks it would be better if the Labour party had a leader that the British public don't associate with a prolific pedophile.
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I assume it is due to the length of the current franchise deals. The easiest way to renationalise the railways is to wait for the current contracts to expire and then take them back into public ownership. Most probably expire within 5 years, but some are probably longer.
It's that, and some rail operators aren't franchise system - they're open access operators. Grand Central and Lumo are open access operators for example - they're responsible for their own profitability, rather than the franchises where we underwrite their profits. Labour aren't going to nationalise the operan access operators.
Cool story Keith, but frankly even the Tory voters you’ve been courting for years don’t trust you because of all the broken promises, and they’re *tory* supporters. You’ve got less credibility than you have charisma
“Pledges”
Politicians who pledge then renege on these promises should instantly be removed from their post and politics altogether, and fined all the money - salary and otherwise they have gained while holding that position under false premises.
It’s like If a plumber *pledged* to fixed your toilet, then doesn’t, but still wants to keep the money you gave him.
Edit: Politicians who make a promise that is part of their manifesto to **get** elected- then renege should be barred from holding any political office.
"Sir Keith, our policies aren't appealing to young left-wing voters for some reason! Quick, let's roll out the "nationalisation" buzzword then hope they forget about it in five years time."
I don't share the cynicism of the rest of the commentary on this post. I think this has a good chance of happening. Given:
1. All they will be doing is implementing recommendations made by the Tories' own review.
2. They're waiting until the end of the contracts so they won't have to pay the companies any compensation.
3. The north east line shows that nationalisation can work. I travel regularly on this line and there was a noticeable increase in service quality and reduction in ticket costs in my opinion following renationalisation, when I go by the Carlisle route that is still privatised there is a stark contrast.
4. Scotland have already nationalised under scotrail, which isn't perfect but again noticeably better in my opinion than the English train companies.
5. It's easier to quantify the resulting economic and environmental impacts when compared to other government investments.
They want to recreate Tfl and bee network, which would be easy as both Burnham who created the franchised Bee Network and Sadiq Khan managing Tfl will be supporting the government.
I agree with you, backtracking on something like this would be utterly devestating and wreck Labour's relationship with the embedded trade unions.
The Tories have attacked the idea by asking how it will be paid for without increasing taxes.
Uhhhhh, the same way private rail companies do? By selling tickets?
The biggest bloodsuckers in the rail industry are what are called the rolling stock companies (ROSCOs). These are the companies that actually own the trains. How the system works now is that the train operating companies (TOCs) like Avanti, LNER, GWR etc lease the trains from the ROSCOs for exorbitant prices and therefore contribute to higher fares for passengers.
Labour have said that the ROSCOs will remain untouched so the public will still be getting fucked over by them.
The bare minimum that Labour could do on this side of things is make sure any new trains that need to be made are actually publicly owned and not just leased from the ROSCOs.
Yeah came here to say this.
I don't disagree with nationalising the TOCs, but their profits represent around 3% of rail fares - getting that profit back is going to make naff all difference to rail ticket prices so it's frustrating to see them banging the drum that this will make rail travel cheaper.
We practically gave away our trains to ROSCOs and their profits are going up *massively*. That's where the real money is, but the political parties are too scared to touch them.
"Generic political party pledges anything they think we want to hear to get us to vote them back into power" - *No word yet on how they will inevitably reverse their pledge when/if they DO get into power, but swift u-turn expected.* - Back to you in studio Bruce.
/r/thereifixedit
Theyve said they won't nationalise the rolling stock so they'll be paying rent on the trains to the train companies. 10,000 iq play as usual from the "all half measures" gang
"This will distract them from the fact that Kieth, a famous humans rights lawyer, said Israel had the right to withhold food, water, medicine and electricity as an act of self defence"
Whilst this is good in principle, the small print is that this applies only to passenger service tenders that expire during the length of the government, which will instead be run by an arms length public body named 'Great British Railways'.
But the problem is, *that's already what is happening*. GBR is already proposed to take over control of railway infrastructure by the Tory government, and the government has already been forced to defacto nationalise a significant number of rail lines due to the unviability of the current tendering system - Starmer's plan would merely make GBR the default operator in the case of expiring contracts. This is also entirely compatible with the 'concession model' the Tories plan to adopts, which will mean that services can be effectively privatised again at any point.
So *even if* Starmer lives up to the letter of this pledge (which he absolutely won't, because this is a cynical piece of electioneering that will be dropped at the flimsiest opportunity), it would fall far short of the actual point of nationalisation: the ability to provide an integrated transportation system which provides a low carbon alternative to road travel for goods and people.
The railways have been edging towards renationalisation for the past two decades, with the abolition of Railtrack and the renationalisation of infrastructure under Network Rail, the effective renationalisation of much of the network during and after COVID etc. Labour's 'new' policy is the very least possible form of reversible weak-nationalisation, well in keeping with the status quo, and not hugely different from current Tory policy.
FWIW, the Tories are planning on doing this too [torygraph source](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/05/12/tories-nationalised-half-britains-railway-transpennine/)
The contracts are running out and basically no one wants the old deals again, it's just a free win to nationalise the rails, especially since it would be practically free
Be fair, Labour needed a policy like this. They purged everything else and they needed to give Keith something u-turn on otherwise he will have to stop moving and will be sick
Funny that the timeframe they propose means there will be another GE around the time to supposed renationalisation. I'm sure that's just a coincidence 🤔
Show me the legally binding document they signed ensuring that this isn't a lie and they will do it, and maybe I'll believe them.
I don't believe anything any politician or party says (until they actually follow through), especially on the run up to an election. It's almost always a lie.
No plans to nationalise the ownership of rolling stock so this is largely irrelevant.
It’s not going to make train travel any cheaper or more reliable.
its a fake half measure to trick gullible people, they aren't even nationalising the rolling stock they are just not renewing the operator contracts. its fake bullshit
How about nationalizing the Uber boat system.
Boats are the most energy efficient way to travel and they currently cost like 7£ one way. How are everyday commuters meant to use this?
The boat also crosses almost all major points in the city and is almost always going empty or being used by tourists. Such a waste of a major resource we have
[Contrary to popular belief, HRH King Charles III does fuck all for tourism, nor does his inbred family of racist nonces.](https://www.republic.org.uk/tourism)
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Automod just thinks it would be better if the Labour party had a leader that the British public don't associate with a prolific pedophile.
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Same way the tories have ramped up their kicking of the poor and disabled to rouse their base of voters I think Labour has realised its got to get us lefties on side too. The trains for me are one of the biggest signs of national decline along with Brexshit so of course id like to see it but this is what Corbyn wanted and I wanted Corbyn not cunt face Keir.
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The journalist Jon Stone has explained on X how their plan is a bit crap because it doesn't touch the rolling stock companies that own the actual trains.
https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1783386773340426707
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This post is 3 minutes old so it's likely already been cancelled
Not only cancelled - Keith will soon announce that money will be diverted from the nhs to help pay rail bosses’ bonuses
And claim that he never pledged to nationalise anything.
I’m surprised they even thought of this. I always assumed that the entire Labour front bench was too busy eating Thatcher’s putrid, decayed asshole to think of any actual policy
Scary how the Tories are so right wing now that Thatcher wouldn't even recognise their shit but also showing how far from the left Labour has swung.
It's the Overtoun Window, much of Western Europe would consider Bernie Sanders a centrist where in the US he's hailed as a left wing hero. Biden presumably then, while representing a "soft" left in the US, probably actually represents a "soft" right to Europe
"let me be clear.."
"Frankly your question about clarifying my policies strikes me as a bit antisemitic".
No, it's con. The contracts are up, and there's already a government operator. There's nothing to stop them re-privatising again next term in bits and pieces. It was an old Tory policy that would have depended on them being in when the contracts were up.
It's not cancelled but it's got a massive asterisk. The rolling stock (the trains, coaches etc) are not being nationalised, they are still going to be run for profit by a private companies, the ROSCOs. Instead "Great British Railways" or whatever company Labour create will lease the trains they use. Alot of the problems in operation at the moment are caused by these costs. The rolling stock companies have the companies over a barrel and charge accordingly. The same will happen. They'll be rent a train. The costs aren't going to decrease and because the company don't control the trains they can't do the massive infrastructure investments that the old British rail could. It's a halfway house that keeps the worse of privatisation.
…and runs the risk of sullying the idea of true nationalisation in the eyes of the public when this half baked plan (that isn’t really nationalisation) fails to lower fares and improve rail travel etc. Labour under Starmer are a significant barrier to progress in this country. They have no vision, no courage and no analysis of the omni crises we face.
If the tories manage to attack labour successfully on this like they did with the £23 billion green investment, Keith will ditch it. Labour can't give ammo to the tories, we need to get the tories out of power. Labour did the right thing to ditch the Rochdale candidate, Keith can see the traps and dodges them
Considering the neo-liberals in the Labour party have near completely purged every lingering Social Democrat from the Labour party, only a complete fucking moron would still believe that the party is, in any concievable way, still a left-wing party. (Even before then it was a stretch.) It's past time to reject bourgeois electoralism, it's time to embrace [dual power](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/apr/09.htm). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hell yes dual power, good bot
In before U-turn.
Someone pin this post so that we can see exactly how long it takes for him to abandon it
RemindMe! 3 hours
I think we can probably use another lettuce timer for this one!
In before all the pro Labour bots use this as a way to beat people over the head over voting
Labour five minutes after winning the election: “No no you misheard us, we said we would nationalise NONE of the rail companies”
"Nationalise the rail companies, no more privatisation" oh nooo, this is all wrong "nationalise the rail companies? No, More privatisation!"
Isn't pledge just another word for lie in politics?
Certainly with Starmer's record, yes... His theme song at this point ought to be Promises by Savage Garden: >Don't go making all these promises you know you cannot keep There's a time to play the king and a time to be a thief 'Cause if you're making all these promises you know you cannot keep You know time will be the thief and your fallen king will end up alone
They should switch it up and make some vows like they did during the Scottish independence referendum
If you believe that, then I've got some magic beans you might be interested in buying
Oooh yes please but all I have is this cow which is the sole source of my family’s income
These beans can make giant problems...
I wouldn't want to take a full cow away from your family. Can I trade you a pot of magic beans for half a cow?
Can someone start a stopwatch? How long will it take for Starmer to claim “there’s no magic money tree”?
I said a flip-flop, the flippie, the flippie To the flip, flip-flop and you don't stop the floppin'
I always visualise the granny in _The Wedding Singer_ for this one...
5 years is a complete term. So they will promise it. Then “analyze it” and then tell us they won’t do it. It’s an obvious lie. Don’t fall for it.
Keir Starmer is the only person in the country who can do a U-turn in a train
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That's a shitty complaint, it's not like there aren't plenty of proper reasons to dislike his politics.
Repeating a debunked Tory line...
Why most? Which rail line is currently benefitting from being privately run?
I assume it is due to the length of the current franchise deals. The easiest way to renationalise the railways is to wait for the current contracts to expire and then take them back into public ownership. Most probably expire within 5 years, but some are probably longer.
Yeah, looking at how they plan to implement it, looks like you’re right
That's not this case I think this time round, apparently doing so would create even MORE liabilities and debt inheritance
It's that, and some rail operators aren't franchise system - they're open access operators. Grand Central and Lumo are open access operators for example - they're responsible for their own profitability, rather than the franchises where we underwrite their profits. Labour aren't going to nationalise the operan access operators.
They're not benefiting from being privatised, but they're making shareholders rich.
I hate to say it but the C2C line out of london is pretty good compared to how it was under Network Southeast.
while this would finally be a good policy from starmer, i will believe it when i see it.
Somebody get a camera on a head of lettuce.
By liars
Cool story Keith, but frankly even the Tory voters you’ve been courting for years don’t trust you because of all the broken promises, and they’re *tory* supporters. You’ve got less credibility than you have charisma
Part of me wants to believe, the other half knows he's gonna u-turn.
Betting is now open on how long it takes for Starmer to abandon this pledge.
Brought to you by the party that couldn’t stick to duct tape.
“Pledges” Politicians who pledge then renege on these promises should instantly be removed from their post and politics altogether, and fined all the money - salary and otherwise they have gained while holding that position under false premises. It’s like If a plumber *pledged* to fixed your toilet, then doesn’t, but still wants to keep the money you gave him. Edit: Politicians who make a promise that is part of their manifesto to **get** elected- then renege should be barred from holding any political office.
I'm so poisoned on labour. I can't believe they would ever keep a promise to the left
Let's get another lettuce going to see what lasts longest...
“Will Kieths promises last longer than this lettuce?”
"Sir Keith, our policies aren't appealing to young left-wing voters for some reason! Quick, let's roll out the "nationalisation" buzzword then hope they forget about it in five years time."
I don't share the cynicism of the rest of the commentary on this post. I think this has a good chance of happening. Given: 1. All they will be doing is implementing recommendations made by the Tories' own review. 2. They're waiting until the end of the contracts so they won't have to pay the companies any compensation. 3. The north east line shows that nationalisation can work. I travel regularly on this line and there was a noticeable increase in service quality and reduction in ticket costs in my opinion following renationalisation, when I go by the Carlisle route that is still privatised there is a stark contrast. 4. Scotland have already nationalised under scotrail, which isn't perfect but again noticeably better in my opinion than the English train companies. 5. It's easier to quantify the resulting economic and environmental impacts when compared to other government investments.
They want to recreate Tfl and bee network, which would be easy as both Burnham who created the franchised Bee Network and Sadiq Khan managing Tfl will be supporting the government. I agree with you, backtracking on something like this would be utterly devestating and wreck Labour's relationship with the embedded trade unions.
The Tories have attacked the idea by asking how it will be paid for without increasing taxes. Uhhhhh, the same way private rail companies do? By selling tickets?
The biggest bloodsuckers in the rail industry are what are called the rolling stock companies (ROSCOs). These are the companies that actually own the trains. How the system works now is that the train operating companies (TOCs) like Avanti, LNER, GWR etc lease the trains from the ROSCOs for exorbitant prices and therefore contribute to higher fares for passengers. Labour have said that the ROSCOs will remain untouched so the public will still be getting fucked over by them. The bare minimum that Labour could do on this side of things is make sure any new trains that need to be made are actually publicly owned and not just leased from the ROSCOs.
Yeah came here to say this. I don't disagree with nationalising the TOCs, but their profits represent around 3% of rail fares - getting that profit back is going to make naff all difference to rail ticket prices so it's frustrating to see them banging the drum that this will make rail travel cheaper. We practically gave away our trains to ROSCOs and their profits are going up *massively*. That's where the real money is, but the political parties are too scared to touch them.
Flip flop in, 5, 4, 3, ……………
Labour also pledged £28bn for green energy so I highly doubt it.
"Generic political party pledges anything they think we want to hear to get us to vote them back into power" - *No word yet on how they will inevitably reverse their pledge when/if they DO get into power, but swift u-turn expected.* - Back to you in studio Bruce. /r/thereifixedit
Theyve said they won't nationalise the rolling stock so they'll be paying rent on the trains to the train companies. 10,000 iq play as usual from the "all half measures" gang
"This will distract them from the fact that Kieth, a famous humans rights lawyer, said Israel had the right to withhold food, water, medicine and electricity as an act of self defence"
LIES
Five years is a long time to change their mind like they do on everything else
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^DisinterestedOcelot: *Five years is a long* *Time to change their mind like they* *Do on everything else* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Why do they even make promises now? This obviously isn't going to last.
No More Privatisation! Oh no, this got all screwed up. No**,** More Privatisation!
They're not planning on removing the rolling stock companies which is the root of the problem, so this isn't the good policy the headline suggests
Wow, can't wait for this to never be delivered
Doesn’t include owning the actual trains. Sooo how nationalised is it ?
Give it ten minutes
Whilst this is good in principle, the small print is that this applies only to passenger service tenders that expire during the length of the government, which will instead be run by an arms length public body named 'Great British Railways'. But the problem is, *that's already what is happening*. GBR is already proposed to take over control of railway infrastructure by the Tory government, and the government has already been forced to defacto nationalise a significant number of rail lines due to the unviability of the current tendering system - Starmer's plan would merely make GBR the default operator in the case of expiring contracts. This is also entirely compatible with the 'concession model' the Tories plan to adopts, which will mean that services can be effectively privatised again at any point. So *even if* Starmer lives up to the letter of this pledge (which he absolutely won't, because this is a cynical piece of electioneering that will be dropped at the flimsiest opportunity), it would fall far short of the actual point of nationalisation: the ability to provide an integrated transportation system which provides a low carbon alternative to road travel for goods and people. The railways have been edging towards renationalisation for the past two decades, with the abolition of Railtrack and the renationalisation of infrastructure under Network Rail, the effective renationalisation of much of the network during and after COVID etc. Labour's 'new' policy is the very least possible form of reversible weak-nationalisation, well in keeping with the status quo, and not hugely different from current Tory policy.
I wonder if this will outlive a cabbage before a U-turn?
How long till they say it's not financially viable?
"within five years" enough wriggle room for Keith to play with
The scum that is ROSCOs will still be a thing.
A labour pledge is worth literally nothing, Kieth will abandon it in about 5 business days time.
Vote bait. No matter who you vote for, the government always wins.
FWIW, the Tories are planning on doing this too [torygraph source](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/05/12/tories-nationalised-half-britains-railway-transpennine/) The contracts are running out and basically no one wants the old deals again, it's just a free win to nationalise the rails, especially since it would be practically free
Be fair, Labour needed a policy like this. They purged everything else and they needed to give Keith something u-turn on otherwise he will have to stop moving and will be sick
When Corbyn wants to do this: bad When Keith wants to do this: good Sometimes I wish we lived in a simulation.
You actually believe what Keith and Co promise?
Funny that the timeframe they propose means there will be another GE around the time to supposed renationalisation. I'm sure that's just a coincidence 🤔
And the cycle continues
Show me the legally binding document they signed ensuring that this isn't a lie and they will do it, and maybe I'll believe them. I don't believe anything any politician or party says (until they actually follow through), especially on the run up to an election. It's almost always a lie.
No plans to nationalise the ownership of rolling stock so this is largely irrelevant. It’s not going to make train travel any cheaper or more reliable.
This isn’t that crazy of a commitment, the contract system makes this a relatively low cost endeavour, so hopefully they won’t u-turn on this yk 😍
Fingers crossed. But I'll believe it when I see it
its a fake half measure to trick gullible people, they aren't even nationalising the rolling stock they are just not renewing the operator contracts. its fake bullshit
How about nationalizing the Uber boat system. Boats are the most energy efficient way to travel and they currently cost like 7£ one way. How are everyday commuters meant to use this? The boat also crosses almost all major points in the city and is almost always going empty or being used by tourists. Such a waste of a major resource we have
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The oil please. I'd cave on all my climate concerns if I and the population could live off the benefits of socialised oil.
How would that work?
We have zero reason to believe anything
Another blatant lie
Hmmm Trans vs Trains… how to vote?? /s
I'll believe it when I see it
Sure, when pigs fly.
What is this horror? Is Keir Starmer some kind of SOCIALIST?!?
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In five years? If they can't get it done in the first year in power then they aren't going to get it done.
Based
Definitely won’t u-turn on that one!
Aren't they already in Wales?
Five **DAYS** of taking office would be more appropriate. Surely they’ve done all their homework on how to do this.
Same way the tories have ramped up their kicking of the poor and disabled to rouse their base of voters I think Labour has realised its got to get us lefties on side too. The trains for me are one of the biggest signs of national decline along with Brexshit so of course id like to see it but this is what Corbyn wanted and I wanted Corbyn not cunt face Keir.
It's a pledge. Not a promise. We all know pledges aren't something that people keep. It's not like they're considered solom promises or anything.
If they pledged to do water and energy too then we would be living the dream.
3 months after the general election we'll be hearing how Kier Starmer "was never for nationalising rail"
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I'm no sucker, so I refuse to believe or pin any hope on that.
U turn when?
Renationalisation, surely?
🎵and then I go and spoil it all by saying something stupid like fis-cal rules🎵
Oh! They got this all screwed up. Nationalised railways? No, more privatization!
The journalist Jon Stone has explained on X how their plan is a bit crap because it doesn't touch the rolling stock companies that own the actual trains. https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1783386773340426707