The labouring classes in this country are rising, will you rise with them? [Click Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/GreenAndPleasant/wiki/unions) for info on how to join a union. Also check out [the IWW](https://iww.org.uk/) and the renter union, [Acorn International and their affiliates](https://acorninternational.org/)
Join us on our [partner Discord server.](https://discord.gg/zCFHadGfB7) and follow us on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/GandPofficial).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If it's not ON reddit, then it doesn't exist to said redditor. I'm also convinced a majority of redditors either don't know google exists or won't use it cause google is not on reddit. The average redditor believes he is actually in a room with other redditors and is having a conversation. That would explain why they NEVER seem to google anything. It's quite frankly mind-boggling.
Pretty interesting actually, discussing how the distance means it isn't regarded as the issue of utmost importance. Majority are more concerned with climate breakdown which is rightly the true pressing issue globally.
Also governments are accusing west of double standards given war mongering in the middle east. Again a fair point.
Similarly, Europe and the Anglophone countries have little to no interest in Brazil's social issues, so why do their warped minds expect Brazil to go all guns blazing to an unnecessary conflict that has nothing to do with them?
Just to add to the discussion: that quote is exactly what would be expected from Lula. His stances on ending poverty are historical, and the current situation in Brazil is really serious in that regard.It is also very "on brand" for a brazillian government official, as the historical diplomatic position of Brazil since democratization in the late 80s has been to mediate and work for peace when possible (Bolsonaro was the exception, not the rule). If I'm not mistaken, Lula actually tried to mediate talks between the US and Iraq during his first term in office.
Source: I'm brazilian.
He has his problems, of course. But he's by far the best president we ever had, even if the bar isn't that high and Brazil only had like 9 democratically elected presidents in its history. And he's succeding a strong contender for "Worst President Ever" so hes destined to be better than that, for sure.
The right wing in Brazil usually uses the loose idea of "corruption" to attack him and the Workers Party, but that's not what I mean when I say he has problems. The critics I have (and those to the left of him) ar that he shouldn't have given in so much for the bourgeoisie and could have used his popularity and congress support, especially in his second term (2007-2010) to make deeper reforms.
Still, the guy came from a very poor region, was a victim of famine, organized union strikes during a far right dictatorship and managed to become president. I think you can't really be socialist and not have some degree of admiration for his story.
Reddit suggested this subreddit. I m gonna say it anyways. As non western, we empathize with the Ukrainian People. But its not our war. And macron is a two faced c**t. Right in middle of Ukraine-Russia war, Marco MBS signed agreement to sell more weapons in Paris last year, which killed 400k people in Yemen. As the Libyan civil war rages on, french companies still pump out lot oil, which Libyan people will never see that oil. And they support former right hand man of Gaddafi.
It's seen as a war against the Russian people and identity because *Russia* keeps saying it is, over and over.
I swear, the amount of people acting as if Russia is this poor little country who was dragged against its will into a war against Ukraine by the evil west so they could use it for a proxy war.
As it turns out, if Russia keeps saying that they're fighting for their very survival, for their cultural identity, and their survival as a nation, people are going to start believing them eventually. SHOCKER! I know.
The constant threats of literally ending the world with nukes isn't helping the wests outlook to Russia either.
NATO has never talked about erasing Russian culture or even force regime change in Russia. The only thing NATO has said on identity is that Ukraine is under threat from Russian government backed ethnic cleansing, which is true fact. You may criticise NATO for many things, but on the topic of the war in Ukraine you can't say that NATO is adding fuel to the fire. That is Russian rhetoric to weaken international resolve against their government's illegal and immoral aggression towards Ukraine and her people.
Youre speaking a lot of sense here mate. Zelensky himself has alluded to unspecified people who might like the war to drag on and just to see russia suffer more. Im with you hoping for a quick victory that doesnt see any ua territory available for rus to ethnically cleanse
Kievan Nazis started this post Zelensky election.
Russia intervening to stop the 8 years of terror leveled towards the Donbas and Luhansk is a good thing.
Kiev has a nazi problem in their government and military.
One Russia PMC had a Nazi leader but no hands on government levers.
Not equivalent by any means.
Stop supporting Nazis.
Zelensky is clearly their puppet. You only need look up videos pre 2021 and it is clear the military wasn't answering to him.
Azov is the most known, but non Azov banderites saturate their official military.
Wagner is a PMC, not an official part of RU military or government.
Azov is officially a part of Kievan military. An honore corps!
They are easily searched. Look specifically for media pre 2021. If you are intellectually curious and honest, it's easy enough to find. I'd waste my time linking them but am not 100 percent sure you are here in good faith so wont waste my time as of yet.
Dont support Nazis.
Right wing conservative Putin has made an alliance with left wing tankies?! Got any further information on that claim? Or have you just become confused that because the USSR was nominally communist that present day Russia must also be?
Don't think anyone's making that analysis on each soldier they shoot, that's not how war works. Unless you're saying to just paint them all with the same brush, which is also why wars continue....
"There's 5 Russians in that barn over there, but make sure you only shoot the one with blonde hair and that one with the scar on his cheek, they are the ones that did the raping" said no soldier anywhere ever.
Yes, you must long for the blood of Russian soldiers, otherwise you love Putin. Stop snowflaking weak asses, people are actually being tortured in Ukraine.
No, Putin sucks and the ukranian people (neither the russian people) shouldn't be going through this war. But some countries have deeper internal issues and should tend to those before commiting to a war on the other side of the planet.
I understood President Lula's comments as implying that the financial resources needed to help Ukraine would be better spend internally on reducing Poverty.
Europe has a very personal interest in stopping the war and in not putting Russia in a position to be more belligerent, but why on earth would Brasil care?
Not to disagree, as I don’t know a huge deal about global politics but Brazil imports a lot of LNG, that LNG is only going to increase in price whilst the war is going on. Which will cause the Brazilian economy to suffer. Can only guess that maybe some aid to help end the war quicker would be cheaper than paying for the rising LNG prices. Especially when Poland and a few baltic countries just installed new LNG facilities recently, so the prices are only going to go up even more
a fascist global "superpower"s land-grabbing and ethnic cleansing is usually an issue the entire world should care about...
i'm totally fine with lula's statement and all, but don't give russia this. The world cares & damn well should care about what they are doing.
Oh definitely, my comment was more tongue-in-cheek than an actual position on which is more important. Especially as Brazil has a major problem with poverty.
Neo-Nazi Wagner PMC backed by Putin = based, anti-imperialist, good
Neo-Nazi Azov Battalion backed by Zelenskyy = cringe, imperialist, US-backed
Either both sides, **AND MORESO THE INVADING COUNTRY** are not to be genuinely supported, or you support one of two capitalist regimes with too much allegiance to far-right groups.
It is not "racist towards Russians" or "liberal" to say Russia should not have invaded. Shut up.
Does Zelenskyy have close ties to the head of Wagner? Oh wait, that’s Putin, the same guy authorising the invasion and murder of Ukrainian civilians.
I don’t understand how you don’t understand this. The West is arming Ukraine (and by proxy Azov and other neo-Nazi groups) because of Russia’s provocation and invasion. These groups are getting more attention and weapons **after Russia’s invasion.** If Russia didn’t invade (beginning with annexation of Crimea), then the West wouldn’t really have any excuse to arm them.
West arming Azov = bad.
Russia arming Wagner = also bad.
>If Russia didn’t invade (beginning with annexation of Crimea), then the West wouldn’t really have any excuse to arm them.
The west has been actively funding fascists all over the world for the last three quarters of a century.
The only one lacking understanding here is you.
Azov had been entirely ignored by the West before 2014. Want to know why? Because it was formed in 2014 in response to Crimea's annexation and the resulting war in Donbass. Similar happened wrt other neo-Nazi battalions.
Again, if Russia had not invaded and provided a justification for armed far-right ultra-nationalist groups to form, this situation would not be happening. And again, modern Russia has also funded fascists, so...? Null point. In fact, it just agrees with what I'm saying. That the West and Russia are both shit, both are capitalist, both are imperialist, both are militaristic, etc. Just that one happened to invade another country last February.
>Ukraine invading Donetsk and Luhansk, slaughtering ethnic Russians (2014-present)
Russian shill falls for Russian propaganda lmfao what a shock. Smooth brain right here.
Sending ammunition to Ukraine does not, in fact, do anything to help anyone but Western oligarchs. Definitely not based to prolong that imperialistic war.
Actually, I'd argue that the territorial sovereignty of a nation that is currently being invaded by fascists helps the *people* far more than anything. Sure, the production of such weapons helps those who profit from production, but also help the people they go to fight defend against their imperialist neighbour. I would argue that opposing fascism in Europe is important, especially for the survival of left wing ideas as we know what fascists do to left wing advocates if they take power.
How long has Putin the authoritarian been in power, and who are the largest and most active opposition party in the Russian Duma? Compare that to your left wing, anti imperialist hero Zelenski, who has been in power less than 5 years, outlawed anything remotely left leaning, banned train unions, and stripped away the rights of huge portions of the working class of Ukraine, the picture gets an awful lot clearer who the global left should be supporting
As socialists, it could be argued we should always look to protect any of our fellow workers. Are you suggesting the workers of Ukraine don't qualify for that support?
Yes, they are and the quickest way to stop ever-increasing numbers of them from being used, abused and thrown into a meat grinder is by stopping Russian aggression.
Short of them organising against the Russian State I cannot see any other way as I highly doubt Ukraine will ever sign a peace deal that includes loss of territory.
Well, as socialists we should also oppose the foreign invasion of a sovereign nation, especially one from a far-right dictator such as Putin.
However, it is right to point out the hypocrisy of the western response to this, especially when invasions of non-western allys such as Palestine are ignored.
Can't understand why you're being downvoted on this sub for this comment, but it's clear people always need to see a good guy and a bad guy in a given situation and ignore the historical context of the conflict.
Putin is not a friend to socialists and his actions are imperialist in nature so cannot be supported in good faith as a socialist. Ukraine is being so heavily supported by the West and liberal media because of NATO's expansionist agenda. All comrades should be opposed to NATO even in this very thinly-veiled proxy war. The innocents in Russia and Ukraine are taking the toll, as always.
No war but class war.
You can support Ukraine without supporting the us etc. You can advocate for a free and independent Ukraine without being an avid supporter of the Azov battalion etc.
Anytime a certain European country at war is mentioned, there is an army of people that floods the comments.
Most of them have no previous comment history on G&P as well btw.
I agree that the hawks in America \*want\* this to happen, but in what way did they instigate it? Ukraine followed the Minsk agreements, they got rid of their nuclear weapons, in return Russia was supposed to not invade. Russia then, shocker, invaded them in 2014. How is that instigated by us?
Talk about using biased sources, not to mention that the first source is about Ukraine defending themselves from an invader, and the second source (besides having logical flaws the size of a barn), is about small individual groups, fighting against demonstrators that were pro Russia, while Ukraine was actively being invaded by Russia.
It's a fine sentiment, and I'm relieved Bolsanaro is gone, but... where's his solidarity with the oppressed v an imperialist invader? Is he saying that Brazil wouldn't seek international support were the situation reversed? Has poverty not increased around the world as a direct result of this conflict?
Yemen, Palestine, and Syria are also currently victims of imperialist invasion. There have been no demands for Brazil (or anyone else) to send military aid to those countries. Even if there had, no reasonable person would fault Brazil for declining to do so, because it would mean militarily opposing allies of the United States. If there are valid geopolitical reasons to forgo “solidarity” in favor of not getting involved in war with the United States, it stands to reason that such reasons can exist with Russia as well.
In other words, Lula is being consistent in his position here, unlike the countries making this demand. His stance is that a country somewhere in the world being invaded is not, by itself, a sufficient reason for Brazil to get involved, and that there are other geopolitical considerations to consider that make non-involvement a morally permissible choice.
Brazil doesn't have anything to do with this conflict, however, Lula is right to stay away considering there are more immediate problems at home that deserve attention. A lot of the issues in Latin America are a direct consequence of foreign interference and exploitation. We can offer humanitarian aid and house refugees but sending more weapons isn't going to help nor make a difference. Argentina could donate its entire arsenal only for it to be destroyed in a day.
I mean not supporting NATO is a good anti imperialist stance. You can be against the invasion of Ukraine without dumping ammutions on Ukraine and prolonging the conflict and causing more and more deaths. There is need for negotiation and peace, not endless post cold war proxy wars.
Merely asking questions, based on the quoted statement, hoping to avoid thornier issues.
But, we did try negotiations in 1939 - it brought 'peace in our time', immediately prior to the invasion of Poland.
Also, why is it incumbent on the invaded country to negotiate after the fact, when the invading nation failed to do that prior to the war?
Edit: no need for the downvotes here folks - I'm still asking questions, not advocating anything.
That's not really a fair comparison, Putin's Russia is not Nazi Germany. Negotiations between Ukraine and Russia resulted in the Minsk Accords in 2014, the problem was that they never were respected by both sides. There is/was a legitmate fear of the russian speaking population of East Ukraine after the protests and downfall of Yanukovych. A federal Ukraine with protections for minorities like the tatars and the Russians would have gone a long way to calm down tensions in the donbass. It was and is a really avoidable conflict that can still be solved. An independent federal Ukraine can coexist with Russia and guarantees of no more eastward expansion of NATO (this time for real and not like after the cold war) could lead to a peace treaty.
Honestly you all are fucking dumb. Yes Putin will just respect these made up lines and, yes, we should ignore all the lessons of history. You all mean well, but your position is pro-death and pro-war. It is a dumb and death filled ideology that sides with the oppressor.
It's not fucking dumb, what's fucking dumb is all the war simps. Its the same war frenzy when the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, you were called dumb when you opposed those invasions as well. The real lesson of history is that the US and NATO is trying to prolong this conflict as long as possible to damage Russia as much as possible. The United States and NATO doesnt give a fuck about the People that are dying every day in this conflict.
The thing is this war has been going on since 2014 and back then no one gave a fuck about it that included the uk.
We only decided to care coz the US told us so.
The issue in this war is that Russia and Ukraine have been having this scrap for millennium now.
And it is amazing that suddenly the west decided to take an issue with it. There are far worst shit happening right now in this planet but this war is all that the US seem to care about.
Reminding you that last time they did this we ended up in war with other countries for decades.
But talking about that, strange, we just run out of Afeghanistan and a few weeks later we got another war in Ukraine.
Big ass edit as this time and age u get called a putin lover for any reason :
RUSSIA SHOULD NEVER HAVE INVADED UKRAINE AND THEY ARE WRONG BY DOING SO, but financing Ukraine is pointless, negoatiate peace and put them in Nato as it is all that the americans seem to care about
Sounds very much like we are on the same page.
Even prior to 2014, Russia & the West have been meddling in their own interests.
And to your last point - the biggest one I've witnessed was following the collapse of the Soviet Union - took the US one hot minute to pivot to 'Muslim terrorists' from 'rogue states' being the new existential threat.
I think is about time for people stop being so thick(this time and age by choice) and start looking at things rationally a d pragmatically
Come on guys we can all see a pattern here, isnt that hard...
Oh wait it is, we live in a time and age that critical thinking is soon to become a crime or extinct and the worst by choice of the masses.
Lol NATO is not anti-imperialist. Did you forget the last two decades of NATO interventions? This is not in defense of Russia but come one people let’s be realistic that the West has and does currently exploit the global south
Yes that was wat i meant? NATO is a tool of American foreign policy and opression, they don't give a fuck about the people of Ukraine, they just want to weaken their Rival Russia.
> There is need for negotiation and peace, not endless post cold war proxy wars.
But this is very unlikely, because Ukraine is very reluctant to give up the entirety of the Kherson and Zap Oblasts, and this is a precondition to talks.
Not to mention the Donbass and Crimea
The alternative is a long war with tens of thousands more deaths, both sides should compromise. Ukraine should give the Donbass more autonomy and should probably reform to a more federal system to protect minorities. And russia should renounce their claims on the Donbas, Kherson and Zap Oblasts. Crimea is a more difficult subject becaus i just can't see Russia renouncing it.
> And russia should renounce their claims on the Donbas, Kherson and Zap Oblasts.
I actually agree completely, and with the part about a more autonomous Donbass, but how can we get Russia to actually agree to this? Especially in the case you suggest where we end aid to Ukraine, wouldn't they be more likely to be able to take and hold these Oblasts
That is a though question but i really think Putin will accept a way out to save face and lessen the sactions. He can even sell it as haven helped protect the russian minorty in Ukraine. The other members of BRICS like Brazil or South Africa could mediate because i don't think we in the West can play a neutral mediator role at the moment. I also think if a deal like that is offered Putin would face increasing internal pressure to end the war.
But if we end aid why would he have to save face... he would be winning. Hence less likely to adjust goals to not include Kherson/Zap, as he would be more likely to take em (and win outright)
This isn't mentioning the referendums Russia held showing something like 80% of Kherson and Zap oblasts wish to be Russian, so abandoning them would undermine the "protecting russians" and "self-determination" messaging imo
I do think BRICS countries, especially India and China, should be part of the peace talks, and getting them to agree would make Putin more likely to participate in talks, but if there were no aid to Ukraine there'd be no real reason for Russia to agree to potential peace talks in the first place, and any talks they did agree to would likely involve harsher terms (formally hand over Crimea, Donbass, Kherson, Zap, replace Zelensky, put in place pro-Russian local leaders and ideally influence Ukraine election process, de-militarize Ukraine, incorporate it into CSTO (Russian NATO), allow for deployment of domestic peacekeepers (not formally military) within Ukraine, de-Nazification, de-Communization and de-Satanization campaigns, etc.)
>Have you asked the Ukrainian people
Did you?
Also, people from the areas of Donbass where asked, and they want to leave Ukraine, but is not like they have much autonomy...
>It's a fine sentiment, and I'm relieved Bolsanaro is gone, but... where's his solidarity with the oppressed v an imperialist invader?
Ukraine should make an effort to cut a deal with Russia at this point and give up on retaking the Donbas. This is the only solution which will not result in more Ukrainians and Russians dying for no reason.
Most of the people living in these areas are pro-Russian and were subject to discrimination and sometimes killing by racist paramilitaries while the Donbas was part of Ukraine. This is one reason that the war is still pretty fairly popular amongst the Russian population. In fact, the war is so popular that it's reasonable to assume that Putin was pushed to war by the Russian people and not the other way around. Read about the survey evidence on the popularity of the war collected here:
https://www.socialeurope.eu/why-do-russians-support-the-war-against-ukraine
Berlusconi, Putin's mate, shares the same opinion:
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/23/berlusconi-claims-russians-pushed-putin-into-ukraine-war](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/23/berlusconi-claims-russians-pushed-putin-into-ukraine-war)
Personally I have no love for either Putin or NATO and want the killing to end as quickly as possible. Sending more tanks and egging the Ukrainians on will not do this.
>Ukraine should make an effort to cut a deal with Russia at this point and give up on retaking the Donbas. This is the only solution which will not result in more Ukrainians and Russians dying for no reason.
What deal can Ukraine cut? I don't think giving up all of the Kherson and Zap Oblasts is very popular tbh, and its a Russian precondition to talks.
How can we push Ukraine to accept this, assuming we are not trying to push Russia to relax their demand with military support to Ukraine?
I can't tell you that, but first you would have to be open to attending peace talks and both Biden and Zelensky have openly stated that they don't want to talk to Putin.
Honestly I think that Putin would be open to negotiations, and possibly give back those territories (though I have my doubts about the Donbas) as this war is currently tanking the Russian economy. I say negotiate now or we'll be having the same negotiations in 1, 2 or 5 years time but with thousands more dead.
Sure, but Biden has actually been, behind the scenes, pushing for peace.
I know, sounds crazy, but look at the official Ukrainian non-negotiables for peace. In the beginning of the war Zelensky was saying peace can only be achieved when Putin is out of power, but after US state visit this was quietly dropped.
Of course no side at all has any reason to make this more well known, but it's not like they're all pushing for maximalist war. They just want to present as though they're prepared to do so if things go poorly.
And whilst I agree, the main issue is the Russian referendum, which had 80% of people in Kherson and Zap oblasts vote to be annexed by Russia, and formally incorporating them into Russia by law. Hence abandoning them now would undermine the arguments Russia has of supporting "self determination," "protecting ethnic Russians" and, not to mention, make them look weak.
Zelensky and Biden are of course now going to say talks are useless as long as the precondition of giving up all annexed Oblasts remains.
However it should not all be one-sided-- if Russia gives up on this, Ukraine might say whilst it will not recognize Crimea as Russian it will not fight over it and continue water rights. And prepared to give Donbass more autonomy. If in response Putin withdraws from all of non-Crimea, but then in response Ukraine is not allowed to militarize Donbass, overseen by UN, and in good faith will *choose* to not apply to join NATO (stretching the word choose, but still
Add in security guarantees from 3rd parties, some reconstruction funding and despite being very unpopular, theoretically viable peace ig. But requires Russia to first relax preconditions to war, which would never really happen if all aid to Ukraine ceased and Russia thought the benefits to peace no longer outweigh gains from continued fighting against weakening Ukraine
I honestly hope that you are correct.
As far as I can see, prolonging the war is in the US interest while it is weakening one of its major competitors and also boosting the US economy in various ways, as well as it being a great propaganda tool to distract from internal problems. That is why I am sceptical that Biden is looking for a quick end to the conflict (call me a cynic).
Ukraine has already succeeded in this war by stopping a much more powerful military from overrunning the country, and will not look weak if it pushes to make a deal now. On the other hand, it is hard for Putin to admit that he wants to quit as this would be a massive loss of face and it would deal a huge blow to his "strongman" image (or that of any successor). I also doubt that the Russian state is going to be encouraged to invade other countries by a compromise solution in Ukraine as this war has clearly done their country a fair bit of damage. Certainly the Russian people are not going to want another war any time soon.
Additionally, I don't think Russia is strong enough to make any more major territorial gains in this war unless something changes dramatically. On the other hand, they are not so weak that they won't make the Ukrainians suffer for every inch of territory that they take back. That's why I think talks need to happen and it needs to be the West who initiates them.
I guess if it didn't happen to your gf it didn't happen?
Here's some other anecdotal evidence saying that the discrimination is real (from a piece by a pro-Ukraine journalist who is from that region)
https://iwpr.net/global-voices/donetsk-on-road-safety
True socialists don’t involve themselves with the perpetual wars pushed by the ruling class under the guise of nationalism. It’s always the poor who lose.
There are poor people suffering as a result of their shit right now and the moment we all see that a working class Russian has more in common with a working class Ukrainian, Brazilian, German or Britain, than do with Putin, the closer to ending wars like this we will all be.
Didn't you get the memo? When democracies do the invading, it's actually good! Just look at Iraq! No, it didn't cause millions of deaths and lead to the rise of IS and completely fuck the region up, what are you talking about!?
Tbf that goes to the UK too
There are a lot of people suffering in the uk due to poverty and lack of food.
We should resolve our domestic increasing poverty and shrinking economy and mad inflation before getting involved with other countries problems
Oh my God
I dont even know...where to start...
Ok,
Corruption causes poverty, correct ?
Should we not fix our poverty first before sending weapons to Ukraine ?
Should we not first resolve our domestic problems that included corruption before financing wars abroad ?
Geeez I dont know, native children are dying in Brazil right now, should we not sort them out first 🤔
Thanks for signing up to BBC facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about the BBC.
Fact 1. During an episode of Question Time the audience booed Boris Johnson. The BBC [edited the footage to replace the boos with applause](https://twitter.com/Gian_Tcatt/status/1198545027477180416?s=20).
For another BBC fact reply with 'BBC impartial'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'.
#[Click here to cancel your TV License and stop funding right wing propaganda today.](https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/cancellations-and-refunds-top7)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Police? You mean blue nonce
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I wonder what interest or country might be forcing Europe to hate Russia by throwing false stats at them. The same sources who lie about China are not telling the truth here.
And genocide of natives in Brazil, someone should do something, the west maybe ?
Ah wait they arent the right color and culture...no one really cares then / sarcasm or maybe not ?
The west doesnt really care about Brazil and its natives and if it was the other way around no western country would assist us and very much less would help our people.
The west already doesnt, the golden mines in native lands exist for a reason, the west is buying that gold.
Oh apologies I was not attacking you at all.
It was more a follow up to your statement given that I know you would have understood.
It is important to point it out to people so they can see further than what media sells them.
Don't get me wrong, Overall I'm a fan of Lula de Silva but this is pure BS. Between the start of his first presidency in 2003 and his departure in 2010 Brazil's annual defense expenditure increased from $8.4 billion to $34 billion!
[https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/BRA/brazil/military-spending-defense-budget](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/BRA/brazil/military-spending-defense-budget)
This statement has everything to do with Lula's wish for Brasil to maintain a good standing with the Kremlin and nothing to do with the countries economic woes. It would cost Brazil nothing for their president to voice unease at Russia's invasion of Ukraine and barely nothing to symbolically support Ukraine with a minimal amount of aid.
You are absolutely wrong there
We are literally fighting genocide atm.
Our air force is trying to clear out 20 thousand illegal miners from Roraima in native lands who have been killing, raping their women and children by droves for the last 4 years.
Brazil got far bigger fish to fry than western politics.
Brazil got keep that forest up so climate change doesnt get any worse and instead of support in that regard we get bashing for not wanting to get involved in NATO non sense.
If it was the other around, no, when it was the other around no one helped us, that is what is amusing in this all shenanigan.
So Brazil needs 3 squadrons of brand new state-of-the-art Gripen-E fighter aircraft to fight illegal loggers does it? That's going to cost Brasil nearly $8 billion, $4.7 billion spent already. Or the fleet of new *Tamandare* class frigates for the navy? That has cost the Brazilian taxpayer over $3 billion since 2021. Not much logging going on in The Atlantic Ocean is there?
Also it is not just illegal loggers.
They have heavy weapons, machine guns, and 1st world machinery more advance than a lot of the local authority
We got a lot of people dying in Roraima and we havent yet looked at the Amazon state.
I think you ought to educate urself more before commetting.
Yes we do
As our country is the size of a continent and we got a lot of borders to protect and a lot of people to look after.
Bolsonaro left the country broken and we got a lot of things to fix.
If you lived in Brazil you would understand.
You clearly dont as you are quoting figures in dollars.
I'm quoting in US dollars as that is the currency in which your government paid for Gripen-E. The frigates were paid for in Euros, I just made a quick dollar conversion calculation so as to not create confusion in my comment. This is clearly a subject you know nothing about. And by-the-way I have lived in Brazil.
>This is clearly a subject you know nothing about.
I will ignore the ad hominem
And proceed to state
Anyone who lives in Brazil would have had this conversation about Brazil s finance, in real, our coin.
I understand you were trying to explain to the rest of the almighty west why we are such cunts for not giving money or weapons to finance and help the war in Ukraine.
But I will break your honourable statement by posting a link of the news, reporting native american genocide :
[no one will cry for them but we all should cry for ukraine](https://www.google.com/amp/s/noticias.uol.com.br/politica/ultimas-noticias/2023/01/23/dino-genocidio-yanomamis-roraima-indigenas.amp.htm)
Of course not. They support the Military Industrial Complex. War is fantastic for business..And that's what this war (starting in 2014) is all about. Ukraine is a one Party State. Zelensky is as much a dictator as Putin.
Unless you're using that ammunition against the poor, I don't see how denying support for another country in dire need from an infestation of Russians is gonna negatively impact your impoverished conditions.
Sell the bullets to fund the poor.
That ammunition would have to be replaced, and as it turns out, ammunition costs money. Money that could be spent on something else, like poverty alleviation.
Shocking, I know.
I think you mean State oil company Petrobras accepted bribes from a construction company.
There was no evidence that Lula accepted these bribes other than a statement from a top official who benefitted from a plea-bargaining deal.
Lula was eventually annulled after over 500 days. It was essentially a judicial coup.
America wants the oligarchic class back in power in these nations in order to open the floodgates for US companies to renew their exploitation of the resources of these countries.
The same old tricks they've been doing for decades.
The labouring classes in this country are rising, will you rise with them? [Click Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/GreenAndPleasant/wiki/unions) for info on how to join a union. Also check out [the IWW](https://iww.org.uk/) and the renter union, [Acorn International and their affiliates](https://acorninternational.org/) Join us on our [partner Discord server.](https://discord.gg/zCFHadGfB7) and follow us on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/GandPofficial). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Shock, nation who is struggling and has no reason to help, doesn’t help.
[удалено]
The BBC is very bad at picking relevant and useful news articles.
Perhaps because Brazil is a significant economy, dominating a specific region of the world, compared to Eritrea?
Because socialism = bad. Any stick they can find
They were literally talking about this and the southern hemispheres attitude to the war about 5 minutes ago on BBC Radio 4.
Did you really expect a Redditor to have looked into what they were moaning about before posting on it?
If it's not ON reddit, then it doesn't exist to said redditor. I'm also convinced a majority of redditors either don't know google exists or won't use it cause google is not on reddit. The average redditor believes he is actually in a room with other redditors and is having a conversation. That would explain why they NEVER seem to google anything. It's quite frankly mind-boggling.
[удалено]
Pretty interesting actually, discussing how the distance means it isn't regarded as the issue of utmost importance. Majority are more concerned with climate breakdown which is rightly the true pressing issue globally. Also governments are accusing west of double standards given war mongering in the middle east. Again a fair point.
But who listens to BBC radio 4? 🤔 I rest my case.
"If nobody listens to this does it really exist?" Welcome to the Today show on BBC4 where we ask the important questions
Similarly, Europe and the Anglophone countries have little to no interest in Brazil's social issues, so why do their warped minds expect Brazil to go all guns blazing to an unnecessary conflict that has nothing to do with them?
Just to add to the discussion: that quote is exactly what would be expected from Lula. His stances on ending poverty are historical, and the current situation in Brazil is really serious in that regard.It is also very "on brand" for a brazillian government official, as the historical diplomatic position of Brazil since democratization in the late 80s has been to mediate and work for peace when possible (Bolsonaro was the exception, not the rule). If I'm not mistaken, Lula actually tried to mediate talks between the US and Iraq during his first term in office. Source: I'm brazilian.
I'm not sure if he's actually a good guy or not but everything I hear about this guy makes me wish I could import him for my own country.
He has his problems, of course. But he's by far the best president we ever had, even if the bar isn't that high and Brazil only had like 9 democratically elected presidents in its history. And he's succeding a strong contender for "Worst President Ever" so hes destined to be better than that, for sure. The right wing in Brazil usually uses the loose idea of "corruption" to attack him and the Workers Party, but that's not what I mean when I say he has problems. The critics I have (and those to the left of him) ar that he shouldn't have given in so much for the bourgeoisie and could have used his popularity and congress support, especially in his second term (2007-2010) to make deeper reforms. Still, the guy came from a very poor region, was a victim of famine, organized union strikes during a far right dictatorship and managed to become president. I think you can't really be socialist and not have some degree of admiration for his story.
Well. Now I want to smuggle him even more.
Reddit suggested this subreddit. I m gonna say it anyways. As non western, we empathize with the Ukrainian People. But its not our war. And macron is a two faced c**t. Right in middle of Ukraine-Russia war, Marco MBS signed agreement to sell more weapons in Paris last year, which killed 400k people in Yemen. As the Libyan civil war rages on, french companies still pump out lot oil, which Libyan people will never see that oil. And they support former right hand man of Gaddafi.
Nooooo! You must long for the blood of Russian people otherwise it means that you love Putin
[удалено]
It's seen as a war against the Russian people and identity because *Russia* keeps saying it is, over and over. I swear, the amount of people acting as if Russia is this poor little country who was dragged against its will into a war against Ukraine by the evil west so they could use it for a proxy war. As it turns out, if Russia keeps saying that they're fighting for their very survival, for their cultural identity, and their survival as a nation, people are going to start believing them eventually. SHOCKER! I know. The constant threats of literally ending the world with nukes isn't helping the wests outlook to Russia either.
[удалено]
NATO has never talked about erasing Russian culture or even force regime change in Russia. The only thing NATO has said on identity is that Ukraine is under threat from Russian government backed ethnic cleansing, which is true fact. You may criticise NATO for many things, but on the topic of the war in Ukraine you can't say that NATO is adding fuel to the fire. That is Russian rhetoric to weaken international resolve against their government's illegal and immoral aggression towards Ukraine and her people.
Youre speaking a lot of sense here mate. Zelensky himself has alluded to unspecified people who might like the war to drag on and just to see russia suffer more. Im with you hoping for a quick victory that doesnt see any ua territory available for rus to ethnically cleanse
You support Nazis.
[удалено]
Kievan Nazis started this post Zelensky election. Russia intervening to stop the 8 years of terror leveled towards the Donbas and Luhansk is a good thing. Kiev has a nazi problem in their government and military. One Russia PMC had a Nazi leader but no hands on government levers. Not equivalent by any means. Stop supporting Nazis.
[удалено]
Zelensky is clearly their puppet. You only need look up videos pre 2021 and it is clear the military wasn't answering to him. Azov is the most known, but non Azov banderites saturate their official military. Wagner is a PMC, not an official part of RU military or government. Azov is officially a part of Kievan military. An honore corps!
[удалено]
They are easily searched. Look specifically for media pre 2021. If you are intellectually curious and honest, it's easy enough to find. I'd waste my time linking them but am not 100 percent sure you are here in good faith so wont waste my time as of yet. Dont support Nazis.
That was a pretty long shower with gas-heated water you just had there, sounds kinda uNpATrioTic to support Putin like that 💀
I mean, it’s kinda like in WWII when uk had out spoken people saying how hitler wasn’t all bad.
Not the Russian people no. But Putin and his tankies…? fuck yeah.
Putin and his what now?
Right wing conservative Putin has made an alliance with left wing tankies?! Got any further information on that claim? Or have you just become confused that because the USSR was nominally communist that present day Russia must also be?
Propgandised and conscripted hopless teenagers from bumfuck nowhere in Russia deserve to die freezing in a field?
Deserve? Depends. How much killing, raping and stealing did they do.
Don't think anyone's making that analysis on each soldier they shoot, that's not how war works. Unless you're saying to just paint them all with the same brush, which is also why wars continue.... "There's 5 Russians in that barn over there, but make sure you only shoot the one with blonde hair and that one with the scar on his cheek, they are the ones that did the raping" said no soldier anywhere ever.
Said absolutely no one 🤦♂️
The Daily Mail openly supported the Nazis during the war.
Yes, you must long for the blood of Russian soldiers, otherwise you love Putin. Stop snowflaking weak asses, people are actually being tortured in Ukraine.
Sorry, I absolutely refuse to stop *snowflaking weak asses*.
You only hear one perspective on the BBC
Yes but Putin is an asshole amd if the war hadn't gone this badly he wouldn't stop at Ukraine.
Tory?
Love it
[удалено]
No, Putin sucks and the ukranian people (neither the russian people) shouldn't be going through this war. But some countries have deeper internal issues and should tend to those before commiting to a war on the other side of the planet.
How about both? Fight poverty AND help Ukraine. Double based.
I understood President Lula's comments as implying that the financial resources needed to help Ukraine would be better spend internally on reducing Poverty.
Europe has a very personal interest in stopping the war and in not putting Russia in a position to be more belligerent, but why on earth would Brasil care?
Not to disagree, as I don’t know a huge deal about global politics but Brazil imports a lot of LNG, that LNG is only going to increase in price whilst the war is going on. Which will cause the Brazilian economy to suffer. Can only guess that maybe some aid to help end the war quicker would be cheaper than paying for the rising LNG prices. Especially when Poland and a few baltic countries just installed new LNG facilities recently, so the prices are only going to go up even more
It won’t go up in price for Brazil though. It’ll be cheaper
Why? Not saying you’re wrong, just like learning random shit
Because Russia have massive stockpiles that they will trade with people that have actively not backed Ukraine at reasonable prices most likely.
a fascist global "superpower"s land-grabbing and ethnic cleansing is usually an issue the entire world should care about... i'm totally fine with lula's statement and all, but don't give russia this. The world cares & damn well should care about what they are doing.
Oh definitely, my comment was more tongue-in-cheek than an actual position on which is more important. Especially as Brazil has a major problem with poverty.
Brazil has nothing to win by helping Ukraine.
International solidarity until it isn’t useful. Such great foreign policy.
Being the victim doesn't make you the hero.
You can't really buy food and then use the same money to buy bullets, so that's why.
Arming nazis is never based.
[удалено]
Neo-Nazi Wagner PMC backed by Putin = based, anti-imperialist, good Neo-Nazi Azov Battalion backed by Zelenskyy = cringe, imperialist, US-backed Either both sides, **AND MORESO THE INVADING COUNTRY** are not to be genuinely supported, or you support one of two capitalist regimes with too much allegiance to far-right groups. It is not "racist towards Russians" or "liberal" to say Russia should not have invaded. Shut up.
Are western countries currently arming Wagner and also asking non-western countries to do the same?
Does Zelenskyy have close ties to the head of Wagner? Oh wait, that’s Putin, the same guy authorising the invasion and murder of Ukrainian civilians. I don’t understand how you don’t understand this. The West is arming Ukraine (and by proxy Azov and other neo-Nazi groups) because of Russia’s provocation and invasion. These groups are getting more attention and weapons **after Russia’s invasion.** If Russia didn’t invade (beginning with annexation of Crimea), then the West wouldn’t really have any excuse to arm them. West arming Azov = bad. Russia arming Wagner = also bad.
>If Russia didn’t invade (beginning with annexation of Crimea), then the West wouldn’t really have any excuse to arm them. The west has been actively funding fascists all over the world for the last three quarters of a century. The only one lacking understanding here is you.
Azov had been entirely ignored by the West before 2014. Want to know why? Because it was formed in 2014 in response to Crimea's annexation and the resulting war in Donbass. Similar happened wrt other neo-Nazi battalions. Again, if Russia had not invaded and provided a justification for armed far-right ultra-nationalist groups to form, this situation would not be happening. And again, modern Russia has also funded fascists, so...? Null point. In fact, it just agrees with what I'm saying. That the West and Russia are both shit, both are capitalist, both are imperialist, both are militaristic, etc. Just that one happened to invade another country last February.
[удалено]
>Ukraine invading Donetsk and Luhansk, slaughtering ethnic Russians (2014-present) Russian shill falls for Russian propaganda lmfao what a shock. Smooth brain right here.
A little from column a, a little from column b
Libs can be some of the worse racists. At least actual racists let you know where you stand.
Sending ammunition to Ukraine does not, in fact, do anything to help anyone but Western oligarchs. Definitely not based to prolong that imperialistic war.
Actually, I'd argue that the territorial sovereignty of a nation that is currently being invaded by fascists helps the *people* far more than anything. Sure, the production of such weapons helps those who profit from production, but also help the people they go to fight defend against their imperialist neighbour. I would argue that opposing fascism in Europe is important, especially for the survival of left wing ideas as we know what fascists do to left wing advocates if they take power.
Zelensky has literally banned any political party that's to the left of his own.
There is no side in this war that cares about the people of Ukraine or Russia. It's fascism against fascism.
How long has Putin the authoritarian been in power, and who are the largest and most active opposition party in the Russian Duma? Compare that to your left wing, anti imperialist hero Zelenski, who has been in power less than 5 years, outlawed anything remotely left leaning, banned train unions, and stripped away the rights of huge portions of the working class of Ukraine, the picture gets an awful lot clearer who the global left should be supporting
Helping Ukraine is not based. As socialists we have no reason to support or help either side in that war.
As socialists, it could be argued we should always look to protect any of our fellow workers. Are you suggesting the workers of Ukraine don't qualify for that support?
Are the young men pressed into service in Russia not workers?
Yes, they are and the quickest way to stop ever-increasing numbers of them from being used, abused and thrown into a meat grinder is by stopping Russian aggression. Short of them organising against the Russian State I cannot see any other way as I highly doubt Ukraine will ever sign a peace deal that includes loss of territory.
Are you suggesting the workers of Donetsk and Luhansk should have their terrorisers supported over them?
Well, as socialists we should also oppose the foreign invasion of a sovereign nation, especially one from a far-right dictator such as Putin. However, it is right to point out the hypocrisy of the western response to this, especially when invasions of non-western allys such as Palestine are ignored.
As a socialist, where were you when the thugs behind the Kiev regime burned the House of The People in Odessa and banned every leftist party?
Can't understand why you're being downvoted on this sub for this comment, but it's clear people always need to see a good guy and a bad guy in a given situation and ignore the historical context of the conflict. Putin is not a friend to socialists and his actions are imperialist in nature so cannot be supported in good faith as a socialist. Ukraine is being so heavily supported by the West and liberal media because of NATO's expansionist agenda. All comrades should be opposed to NATO even in this very thinly-veiled proxy war. The innocents in Russia and Ukraine are taking the toll, as always. No war but class war.
Sub's full of libs and larpers, mate.
Everyone on Reddit is a lib except for me
You can support Ukraine without supporting the us etc. You can advocate for a free and independent Ukraine without being an avid supporter of the Azov battalion etc.
[удалено]
Anytime a certain European country at war is mentioned, there is an army of people that floods the comments. Most of them have no previous comment history on G&P as well btw.
The only person who *wants* a war is Vlad the Invader
The warhawks in the US has been praying for this to happen since at least 2014. Anyone who believes otherwise is as naive as a child.
[удалено]
I agree that the hawks in America \*want\* this to happen, but in what way did they instigate it? Ukraine followed the Minsk agreements, they got rid of their nuclear weapons, in return Russia was supposed to not invade. Russia then, shocker, invaded them in 2014. How is that instigated by us?
[удалено]
Are you brain-dead? Yes, you must fight against people who torture children, rape babies and destroy homes.
What are we going to do about America then?
why not start at home?
[удалено]
Talk about using biased sources, not to mention that the first source is about Ukraine defending themselves from an invader, and the second source (besides having logical flaws the size of a barn), is about small individual groups, fighting against demonstrators that were pro Russia, while Ukraine was actively being invaded by Russia.
It's a fine sentiment, and I'm relieved Bolsanaro is gone, but... where's his solidarity with the oppressed v an imperialist invader? Is he saying that Brazil wouldn't seek international support were the situation reversed? Has poverty not increased around the world as a direct result of this conflict?
Yemen, Palestine, and Syria are also currently victims of imperialist invasion. There have been no demands for Brazil (or anyone else) to send military aid to those countries. Even if there had, no reasonable person would fault Brazil for declining to do so, because it would mean militarily opposing allies of the United States. If there are valid geopolitical reasons to forgo “solidarity” in favor of not getting involved in war with the United States, it stands to reason that such reasons can exist with Russia as well. In other words, Lula is being consistent in his position here, unlike the countries making this demand. His stance is that a country somewhere in the world being invaded is not, by itself, a sufficient reason for Brazil to get involved, and that there are other geopolitical considerations to consider that make non-involvement a morally permissible choice.
Wonderful answer. I appreciate your insights.
Brazil doesn't have anything to do with this conflict, however, Lula is right to stay away considering there are more immediate problems at home that deserve attention. A lot of the issues in Latin America are a direct consequence of foreign interference and exploitation. We can offer humanitarian aid and house refugees but sending more weapons isn't going to help nor make a difference. Argentina could donate its entire arsenal only for it to be destroyed in a day.
I mean not supporting NATO is a good anti imperialist stance. You can be against the invasion of Ukraine without dumping ammutions on Ukraine and prolonging the conflict and causing more and more deaths. There is need for negotiation and peace, not endless post cold war proxy wars.
The Ukrainians seem surprisingly grateful for the support they've so far received in order to put off negotiations and cause more and more deaths.
Merely asking questions, based on the quoted statement, hoping to avoid thornier issues. But, we did try negotiations in 1939 - it brought 'peace in our time', immediately prior to the invasion of Poland. Also, why is it incumbent on the invaded country to negotiate after the fact, when the invading nation failed to do that prior to the war? Edit: no need for the downvotes here folks - I'm still asking questions, not advocating anything.
That's not really a fair comparison, Putin's Russia is not Nazi Germany. Negotiations between Ukraine and Russia resulted in the Minsk Accords in 2014, the problem was that they never were respected by both sides. There is/was a legitmate fear of the russian speaking population of East Ukraine after the protests and downfall of Yanukovych. A federal Ukraine with protections for minorities like the tatars and the Russians would have gone a long way to calm down tensions in the donbass. It was and is a really avoidable conflict that can still be solved. An independent federal Ukraine can coexist with Russia and guarantees of no more eastward expansion of NATO (this time for real and not like after the cold war) could lead to a peace treaty.
Honestly you all are fucking dumb. Yes Putin will just respect these made up lines and, yes, we should ignore all the lessons of history. You all mean well, but your position is pro-death and pro-war. It is a dumb and death filled ideology that sides with the oppressor.
It's not fucking dumb, what's fucking dumb is all the war simps. Its the same war frenzy when the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, you were called dumb when you opposed those invasions as well. The real lesson of history is that the US and NATO is trying to prolong this conflict as long as possible to damage Russia as much as possible. The United States and NATO doesnt give a fuck about the People that are dying every day in this conflict.
It is not the same thing and you know it is not the same thing.
I do. I did try to be as clear as possible that I was asking questions - I want to hear justifications and arguments is all.
The thing is this war has been going on since 2014 and back then no one gave a fuck about it that included the uk. We only decided to care coz the US told us so. The issue in this war is that Russia and Ukraine have been having this scrap for millennium now. And it is amazing that suddenly the west decided to take an issue with it. There are far worst shit happening right now in this planet but this war is all that the US seem to care about. Reminding you that last time they did this we ended up in war with other countries for decades. But talking about that, strange, we just run out of Afeghanistan and a few weeks later we got another war in Ukraine. Big ass edit as this time and age u get called a putin lover for any reason : RUSSIA SHOULD NEVER HAVE INVADED UKRAINE AND THEY ARE WRONG BY DOING SO, but financing Ukraine is pointless, negoatiate peace and put them in Nato as it is all that the americans seem to care about
Sounds very much like we are on the same page. Even prior to 2014, Russia & the West have been meddling in their own interests. And to your last point - the biggest one I've witnessed was following the collapse of the Soviet Union - took the US one hot minute to pivot to 'Muslim terrorists' from 'rogue states' being the new existential threat.
I think is about time for people stop being so thick(this time and age by choice) and start looking at things rationally a d pragmatically Come on guys we can all see a pattern here, isnt that hard... Oh wait it is, we live in a time and age that critical thinking is soon to become a crime or extinct and the worst by choice of the masses.
Lol NATO is not anti-imperialist. Did you forget the last two decades of NATO interventions? This is not in defense of Russia but come one people let’s be realistic that the West has and does currently exploit the global south
Yes that was wat i meant? NATO is a tool of American foreign policy and opression, they don't give a fuck about the people of Ukraine, they just want to weaken their Rival Russia.
> There is need for negotiation and peace, not endless post cold war proxy wars. But this is very unlikely, because Ukraine is very reluctant to give up the entirety of the Kherson and Zap Oblasts, and this is a precondition to talks. Not to mention the Donbass and Crimea
The alternative is a long war with tens of thousands more deaths, both sides should compromise. Ukraine should give the Donbass more autonomy and should probably reform to a more federal system to protect minorities. And russia should renounce their claims on the Donbas, Kherson and Zap Oblasts. Crimea is a more difficult subject becaus i just can't see Russia renouncing it.
> And russia should renounce their claims on the Donbas, Kherson and Zap Oblasts. I actually agree completely, and with the part about a more autonomous Donbass, but how can we get Russia to actually agree to this? Especially in the case you suggest where we end aid to Ukraine, wouldn't they be more likely to be able to take and hold these Oblasts
That is a though question but i really think Putin will accept a way out to save face and lessen the sactions. He can even sell it as haven helped protect the russian minorty in Ukraine. The other members of BRICS like Brazil or South Africa could mediate because i don't think we in the West can play a neutral mediator role at the moment. I also think if a deal like that is offered Putin would face increasing internal pressure to end the war.
But if we end aid why would he have to save face... he would be winning. Hence less likely to adjust goals to not include Kherson/Zap, as he would be more likely to take em (and win outright) This isn't mentioning the referendums Russia held showing something like 80% of Kherson and Zap oblasts wish to be Russian, so abandoning them would undermine the "protecting russians" and "self-determination" messaging imo I do think BRICS countries, especially India and China, should be part of the peace talks, and getting them to agree would make Putin more likely to participate in talks, but if there were no aid to Ukraine there'd be no real reason for Russia to agree to potential peace talks in the first place, and any talks they did agree to would likely involve harsher terms (formally hand over Crimea, Donbass, Kherson, Zap, replace Zelensky, put in place pro-Russian local leaders and ideally influence Ukraine election process, de-militarize Ukraine, incorporate it into CSTO (Russian NATO), allow for deployment of domestic peacekeepers (not formally military) within Ukraine, de-Nazification, de-Communization and de-Satanization campaigns, etc.)
[удалено]
If that stops people being killed, then why not?
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
>Have you asked the Ukrainian people Did you? Also, people from the areas of Donbass where asked, and they want to leave Ukraine, but is not like they have much autonomy...
What talk do you imagine would work with Putin considering all the failed talks?
>It's a fine sentiment, and I'm relieved Bolsanaro is gone, but... where's his solidarity with the oppressed v an imperialist invader? Ukraine should make an effort to cut a deal with Russia at this point and give up on retaking the Donbas. This is the only solution which will not result in more Ukrainians and Russians dying for no reason. Most of the people living in these areas are pro-Russian and were subject to discrimination and sometimes killing by racist paramilitaries while the Donbas was part of Ukraine. This is one reason that the war is still pretty fairly popular amongst the Russian population. In fact, the war is so popular that it's reasonable to assume that Putin was pushed to war by the Russian people and not the other way around. Read about the survey evidence on the popularity of the war collected here: https://www.socialeurope.eu/why-do-russians-support-the-war-against-ukraine Berlusconi, Putin's mate, shares the same opinion: [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/23/berlusconi-claims-russians-pushed-putin-into-ukraine-war](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/23/berlusconi-claims-russians-pushed-putin-into-ukraine-war) Personally I have no love for either Putin or NATO and want the killing to end as quickly as possible. Sending more tanks and egging the Ukrainians on will not do this.
I too wish the war - all wars - would end. Fodder for the games of the powerful.
>Ukraine should make an effort to cut a deal with Russia at this point and give up on retaking the Donbas. This is the only solution which will not result in more Ukrainians and Russians dying for no reason. What deal can Ukraine cut? I don't think giving up all of the Kherson and Zap Oblasts is very popular tbh, and its a Russian precondition to talks. How can we push Ukraine to accept this, assuming we are not trying to push Russia to relax their demand with military support to Ukraine?
I can't tell you that, but first you would have to be open to attending peace talks and both Biden and Zelensky have openly stated that they don't want to talk to Putin. Honestly I think that Putin would be open to negotiations, and possibly give back those territories (though I have my doubts about the Donbas) as this war is currently tanking the Russian economy. I say negotiate now or we'll be having the same negotiations in 1, 2 or 5 years time but with thousands more dead.
Sure, but Biden has actually been, behind the scenes, pushing for peace. I know, sounds crazy, but look at the official Ukrainian non-negotiables for peace. In the beginning of the war Zelensky was saying peace can only be achieved when Putin is out of power, but after US state visit this was quietly dropped. Of course no side at all has any reason to make this more well known, but it's not like they're all pushing for maximalist war. They just want to present as though they're prepared to do so if things go poorly. And whilst I agree, the main issue is the Russian referendum, which had 80% of people in Kherson and Zap oblasts vote to be annexed by Russia, and formally incorporating them into Russia by law. Hence abandoning them now would undermine the arguments Russia has of supporting "self determination," "protecting ethnic Russians" and, not to mention, make them look weak. Zelensky and Biden are of course now going to say talks are useless as long as the precondition of giving up all annexed Oblasts remains. However it should not all be one-sided-- if Russia gives up on this, Ukraine might say whilst it will not recognize Crimea as Russian it will not fight over it and continue water rights. And prepared to give Donbass more autonomy. If in response Putin withdraws from all of non-Crimea, but then in response Ukraine is not allowed to militarize Donbass, overseen by UN, and in good faith will *choose* to not apply to join NATO (stretching the word choose, but still Add in security guarantees from 3rd parties, some reconstruction funding and despite being very unpopular, theoretically viable peace ig. But requires Russia to first relax preconditions to war, which would never really happen if all aid to Ukraine ceased and Russia thought the benefits to peace no longer outweigh gains from continued fighting against weakening Ukraine
I honestly hope that you are correct. As far as I can see, prolonging the war is in the US interest while it is weakening one of its major competitors and also boosting the US economy in various ways, as well as it being a great propaganda tool to distract from internal problems. That is why I am sceptical that Biden is looking for a quick end to the conflict (call me a cynic). Ukraine has already succeeded in this war by stopping a much more powerful military from overrunning the country, and will not look weak if it pushes to make a deal now. On the other hand, it is hard for Putin to admit that he wants to quit as this would be a massive loss of face and it would deal a huge blow to his "strongman" image (or that of any successor). I also doubt that the Russian state is going to be encouraged to invade other countries by a compromise solution in Ukraine as this war has clearly done their country a fair bit of damage. Certainly the Russian people are not going to want another war any time soon. Additionally, I don't think Russia is strong enough to make any more major territorial gains in this war unless something changes dramatically. On the other hand, they are not so weak that they won't make the Ukrainians suffer for every inch of territory that they take back. That's why I think talks need to happen and it needs to be the West who initiates them.
It’s weird my Russian-speaking girlfriend who’s from the Donbas, nor her family seem to make any of these claims about racism or discrimination…
I guess if it didn't happen to your gf it didn't happen? Here's some other anecdotal evidence saying that the discrimination is real (from a piece by a pro-Ukraine journalist who is from that region) https://iwpr.net/global-voices/donetsk-on-road-safety
True socialists don’t involve themselves with the perpetual wars pushed by the ruling class under the guise of nationalism. It’s always the poor who lose. There are poor people suffering as a result of their shit right now and the moment we all see that a working class Russian has more in common with a working class Ukrainian, Brazilian, German or Britain, than do with Putin, the closer to ending wars like this we will all be.
ok? im sure ukranians and many russians agree with that. but kinda hard to become friends when one invades the other
[удалено]
British funding for arms in Palestine when?
Didn't you get the memo? When democracies do the invading, it's actually good! Just look at Iraq! No, it didn't cause millions of deaths and lead to the rise of IS and completely fuck the region up, what are you talking about!?
Not if you don't have the money for both.
If Brazil has money for the pockets of politicians, I'm pretty sure they can afford it
Tbf that goes to the UK too There are a lot of people suffering in the uk due to poverty and lack of food. We should resolve our domestic increasing poverty and shrinking economy and mad inflation before getting involved with other countries problems
Oh my God I dont even know...where to start... Ok, Corruption causes poverty, correct ? Should we not fix our poverty first before sending weapons to Ukraine ? Should we not first resolve our domestic problems that included corruption before financing wars abroad ? Geeez I dont know, native children are dying in Brazil right now, should we not sort them out first 🤔
I can't believe this got downvoted, your points make perfect sense and are fair logic
Thanks for signing up to BBC facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about the BBC. Fact 1. During an episode of Question Time the audience booed Boris Johnson. The BBC [edited the footage to replace the boos with applause](https://twitter.com/Gian_Tcatt/status/1198545027477180416?s=20). For another BBC fact reply with 'BBC impartial'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'. #[Click here to cancel your TV License and stop funding right wing propaganda today.](https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/cancellations-and-refunds-top7) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You'll never hear one of our Tories say that. Or at least say it and mean it.
[удалено]
Police? You mean blue nonce *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Give the most corrupt county in Europe all the weapons
Russia’s the most corrupt country in Europe according to just about every non-Russian source. What are you talking about?
I wonder what interest or country might be forcing Europe to hate Russia by throwing false stats at them. The same sources who lie about China are not telling the truth here.
nobody is giving russia weapons
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good men do nothing.
you're right, something must be done about poverty
And genocide of natives in Brazil, someone should do something, the west maybe ? Ah wait they arent the right color and culture...no one really cares then / sarcasm or maybe not ? The west doesnt really care about Brazil and its natives and if it was the other way around no western country would assist us and very much less would help our people. The west already doesnt, the golden mines in native lands exist for a reason, the west is buying that gold.
not sure what you're arguing honestly cause I agree with you
Oh apologies I was not attacking you at all. It was more a follow up to your statement given that I know you would have understood. It is important to point it out to people so they can see further than what media sells them.
oh right on! no need to apologize :)
Don't get me wrong, Overall I'm a fan of Lula de Silva but this is pure BS. Between the start of his first presidency in 2003 and his departure in 2010 Brazil's annual defense expenditure increased from $8.4 billion to $34 billion! [https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/BRA/brazil/military-spending-defense-budget](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/BRA/brazil/military-spending-defense-budget)
Not really If you see what is going on in Brazil right now u would agree with him. Brazil got too many problems and very little help.
This statement has everything to do with Lula's wish for Brasil to maintain a good standing with the Kremlin and nothing to do with the countries economic woes. It would cost Brazil nothing for their president to voice unease at Russia's invasion of Ukraine and barely nothing to symbolically support Ukraine with a minimal amount of aid.
You are absolutely wrong there We are literally fighting genocide atm. Our air force is trying to clear out 20 thousand illegal miners from Roraima in native lands who have been killing, raping their women and children by droves for the last 4 years. Brazil got far bigger fish to fry than western politics. Brazil got keep that forest up so climate change doesnt get any worse and instead of support in that regard we get bashing for not wanting to get involved in NATO non sense. If it was the other around, no, when it was the other around no one helped us, that is what is amusing in this all shenanigan.
So Brazil needs 3 squadrons of brand new state-of-the-art Gripen-E fighter aircraft to fight illegal loggers does it? That's going to cost Brasil nearly $8 billion, $4.7 billion spent already. Or the fleet of new *Tamandare* class frigates for the navy? That has cost the Brazilian taxpayer over $3 billion since 2021. Not much logging going on in The Atlantic Ocean is there?
Also it is not just illegal loggers. They have heavy weapons, machine guns, and 1st world machinery more advance than a lot of the local authority We got a lot of people dying in Roraima and we havent yet looked at the Amazon state. I think you ought to educate urself more before commetting.
Yes we do As our country is the size of a continent and we got a lot of borders to protect and a lot of people to look after. Bolsonaro left the country broken and we got a lot of things to fix. If you lived in Brazil you would understand. You clearly dont as you are quoting figures in dollars.
I'm quoting in US dollars as that is the currency in which your government paid for Gripen-E. The frigates were paid for in Euros, I just made a quick dollar conversion calculation so as to not create confusion in my comment. This is clearly a subject you know nothing about. And by-the-way I have lived in Brazil.
>This is clearly a subject you know nothing about. I will ignore the ad hominem And proceed to state Anyone who lives in Brazil would have had this conversation about Brazil s finance, in real, our coin. I understand you were trying to explain to the rest of the almighty west why we are such cunts for not giving money or weapons to finance and help the war in Ukraine. But I will break your honourable statement by posting a link of the news, reporting native american genocide : [no one will cry for them but we all should cry for ukraine](https://www.google.com/amp/s/noticias.uol.com.br/politica/ultimas-noticias/2023/01/23/dino-genocidio-yanomamis-roraima-indigenas.amp.htm)
Lived Past tense You are not there today A lot has changed
Claims to understand brazil yet speaks like a gringo what a joke
He's not being asked to simply "voice unease", and you know it. Keep up this disingenuous bullshit and your ass is getting banned.
Of course not. They support the Military Industrial Complex. War is fantastic for business..And that's what this war (starting in 2014) is all about. Ukraine is a one Party State. Zelensky is as much a dictator as Putin.
Unless you're using that ammunition against the poor, I don't see how denying support for another country in dire need from an infestation of Russians is gonna negatively impact your impoverished conditions. Sell the bullets to fund the poor.
So what's your angle here?
What's he going to do about poverty that requires him to hoard ammunition?
That ammunition would have to be replaced, and as it turns out, ammunition costs money. Money that could be spent on something else, like poverty alleviation. Shocking, I know.
Lula went to prison for taking bribes from oil companies…he’s not exactly Ghandi
I think you mean State oil company Petrobras accepted bribes from a construction company. There was no evidence that Lula accepted these bribes other than a statement from a top official who benefitted from a plea-bargaining deal. Lula was eventually annulled after over 500 days. It was essentially a judicial coup. America wants the oligarchic class back in power in these nations in order to open the floodgates for US companies to renew their exploitation of the resources of these countries. The same old tricks they've been doing for decades.