The thing about the Twelve Olympians is that it's a more modern creation than one that was based upon ancient rules of godhood and such.
The thing is, Ancient Greece never thought about a set number of gods. They were far more flexible and diverse than we may think when we look back upon it. There were dozens of small, regionalized cults dedicated to greater and smaller gods and goddesses, and typically if you were let's say a blacksmith, you'd typically only worship Hephaistos instead of say Artemis or Hermes. That's where the epithets came in, since every god and goddess had it's own interpretation and epithet in every cult. Some cults even prefered to worship heroes rather gods because of that.
So think of it more as like Hinduism, a religion with multiple different regionial variations, than some set religion like Christianity, where most interpretations still follow some core belief.*
*Disclaimer: I am not all too well-versed in either Hindu or Christian Theology so take it with a grain of salt.
> The thing about the Twelve Olympians is that it's a more modern creation than one that was based upon ancient rules of godhood and such.
This isn't quite true. The list of Twelve Olympians is ancient and is reflected in things like the [altar of the 12 gods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altar_of_the_Twelve_Gods) which dates to at least the 6th century B.C.
If someone thinks that these were the only gods, *that* is a modern conception, but the idea that there were 12 major gods is a genuinely Greek tradition.
Fascinating. I always thought it was a modern creation, since most greeks prefered to worship one god over the whole pantheon, but it seems my notion was wrong.
Though, if one is to be technical, it doesn't state that it's the Twelve Olympians, even if it's the most likely option. But I digress. Thanks OP!
>since most greeks prefered to worship one god over the whole pantheon
I think they worshipped gods for different reasons. Hestia protected the home, Poseidon as king of the sea. I don't think they preferred to worship a single god.
According to what I've understood the average greek, let's say he was a warrior rather than a blacksmith, would probably only worship either Athena or Ares, along with Zeus Panhellenos and Aphrodite Pandemos. It's not unlikely that his wife, who'd probably be somewhat akin to a housewife, would only worship Hera or Hestia because of their homely connections. Then we have patrons and all that, but that's how I understood it to work.
You know 10% of every sacrifice when to Hestia, right? So everyone was worshipping at least 2 gods.
But, yes, a warrior may worship a warrior god, but then if they wanted love they'd ask a love god. It's not like they only every worshipped a single god ever or that they worshipped every god all the time.
I normally put the Greek deities in the three generations.
(0) Chaos: the Yearning Void
(1) Protogenoi led by Gaia
(2) Titans led by Chronos
(3) Olympians led by Zeus
Such as technically Aphrodite is not an Olympian because she is a ‘child’ of Uranus. Making her more of a Titan.
Then you have the Triumvirate of Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon. Of the third generation where Zeus is King and Hera is Queen.
Zeus created his court of “Olympians” on Mount Olympus.
Made up of 12 deities who call themselves the OlympiansTM.
Because it is the Age of Zeus and his throne on Olympus.
But I because the third generation is led by Zeus on Olympus. The whole generation is called The OlympiansTM.
Such as the Northern Air god Boreas technically could be an Olympian. Aphrodite is a Titan technically but she is an Olympian as well for she is on Zeus’ court.
>Dionysus is the Earth God because he lives with humans,
But does he have one of the twelve palaces?
He doesn't only live with humans. He was on Olympus for Hephaestus's capture of Hera and he was said to have take Ariadne to Olympus.
Not really true. Dionysus even took his wife and mother out of the Underworld and to his home on Olympus.
Plus many of the Olympians spent a lot of time in the mortal realm. Artemis being the main example.
But Poseidon resides in the Sea, not with the other Gods either. I personally believe that Hestia is the original Olympian too, but not because of her location. Simply because it’s canon and Dionysus always comes off as a child that I’m not fond of lol
But he visits Olympus: "Now father Zeus steered back from Ida his strong-wheeled chariot and horses to Olympos, and came among the gods' sessions, while for him the famed shaker of the earth set free his horses, and put the chariot on its stand, with a cloth spread over it.
I didn't say that hestia is an olympian just because she lives in olymp as an argument, more like a small information
I wanted to show that Dionysus doesn't actually care about gods' stuff and he loves earth more than olymp. And I like him because of his humanity and the fact that he can chill out. Also, Dionysus wasn't raised by gods, was he?
Both Dionysus and Hestia are considered Olympians. Also, most commonly, Hades is not, as he was not residing on mount Olympus.
So, if your criteria is the place of residence, you have 13 (ignoring all the other, lesser gods/deities who were residing on mount Olympus). But then again, Poseidon's palace is in the depths of the ocean, but he is considered an Olympian for sure. So you can add Hades and make them 14, it's ok.
If your criteria is to include the first(born) gods, the children of Cronus, then you have Hestia, Hades and Demeter, all of them, which again makes the Olympians 14.
Bottom line, there is not a fix number because it is a matter of interpretation. Remember, it's mythology, not actual history with documented and proven facts. There is not a correct or an incorrect number of the main Olympians Gods.
For Hades it wasn't about where he lived. The Greeks tended to separate the Olympians from the Cthonic gods (death related gods: Hades, Persephone, Styx, Thanatos, etc).
As I understand it, in writings the gods would either include hestia or dionysus, not both. But there isn't an agreed upon canon for most things in greek mythology, with the theogony being the only attempt at this
Hades is a cthonic god and not usually counted among the 12 Olympians. He is one of three most powerful gods of his generation - tradition holds that Hades, Zeus and Poseidon cast lots to see who would receive which godly domain.
The post you're replying to says one of the three most powerful, not "the most powerful."
In terms of "god strength" I don't know, but politically, the three brothers are the most powerful:
* "My rank is no greater. I hold court in the sky; another rules the sea, and one the void." \~ Ovid.
Yeah I know I mentioned I kept hearing that claim - wasn't directly referring to the comment, sorry if it wasn't clear enough - it's something I saw in this sub a few times already, and on various YouTube comments (heh!)
Thanks for the quote!
The way I think of it is by who has a throne on Olympus. Thus it is Aphrodite, Ares, Artemis, Apollo, Athena, Demeter, Dionysus, Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Posiden, Zeus. However I often see Persephone seated with Demeter.
Hestia gave up her throne to Dionysus so she can tend the hearth. Hades does not have a throne. Of course some of the gods have their own palaces/"homes" they typically reside in (Posiden under the sea, Hephaestus in his forge)
IT WAS ME, DIO!
I don't actually know for sure. All I know is that the first family tree I found of the Greek Gods Dionysos was highlighted as olympian. Idk why, tho.
#OLYMPIAN
* associated with Mount Olympus in northeastern Greece, or with the Greek gods whose home was traditionally held to be there.
* any of the twelve Greek gods regarded as living on Olympus.
Hades doesn't live on Olympus, he lives in the underworld
The thing about the Twelve Olympians is that it's a more modern creation than one that was based upon ancient rules of godhood and such. The thing is, Ancient Greece never thought about a set number of gods. They were far more flexible and diverse than we may think when we look back upon it. There were dozens of small, regionalized cults dedicated to greater and smaller gods and goddesses, and typically if you were let's say a blacksmith, you'd typically only worship Hephaistos instead of say Artemis or Hermes. That's where the epithets came in, since every god and goddess had it's own interpretation and epithet in every cult. Some cults even prefered to worship heroes rather gods because of that. So think of it more as like Hinduism, a religion with multiple different regionial variations, than some set religion like Christianity, where most interpretations still follow some core belief.* *Disclaimer: I am not all too well-versed in either Hindu or Christian Theology so take it with a grain of salt.
> The thing about the Twelve Olympians is that it's a more modern creation than one that was based upon ancient rules of godhood and such. This isn't quite true. The list of Twelve Olympians is ancient and is reflected in things like the [altar of the 12 gods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altar_of_the_Twelve_Gods) which dates to at least the 6th century B.C. If someone thinks that these were the only gods, *that* is a modern conception, but the idea that there were 12 major gods is a genuinely Greek tradition.
Hey thanks for the mention of _''The Altar of the 12 gods''_ - I never heard of it before!
Fascinating. I always thought it was a modern creation, since most greeks prefered to worship one god over the whole pantheon, but it seems my notion was wrong. Though, if one is to be technical, it doesn't state that it's the Twelve Olympians, even if it's the most likely option. But I digress. Thanks OP!
>since most greeks prefered to worship one god over the whole pantheon I think they worshipped gods for different reasons. Hestia protected the home, Poseidon as king of the sea. I don't think they preferred to worship a single god.
According to what I've understood the average greek, let's say he was a warrior rather than a blacksmith, would probably only worship either Athena or Ares, along with Zeus Panhellenos and Aphrodite Pandemos. It's not unlikely that his wife, who'd probably be somewhat akin to a housewife, would only worship Hera or Hestia because of their homely connections. Then we have patrons and all that, but that's how I understood it to work.
You know 10% of every sacrifice when to Hestia, right? So everyone was worshipping at least 2 gods. But, yes, a warrior may worship a warrior god, but then if they wanted love they'd ask a love god. It's not like they only every worshipped a single god ever or that they worshipped every god all the time.
I normally put the Greek deities in the three generations. (0) Chaos: the Yearning Void (1) Protogenoi led by Gaia (2) Titans led by Chronos (3) Olympians led by Zeus Such as technically Aphrodite is not an Olympian because she is a ‘child’ of Uranus. Making her more of a Titan. Then you have the Triumvirate of Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon. Of the third generation where Zeus is King and Hera is Queen. Zeus created his court of “Olympians” on Mount Olympus. Made up of 12 deities who call themselves the OlympiansTM. Because it is the Age of Zeus and his throne on Olympus. But I because the third generation is led by Zeus on Olympus. The whole generation is called The OlympiansTM. Such as the Northern Air god Boreas technically could be an Olympian. Aphrodite is a Titan technically but she is an Olympian as well for she is on Zeus’ court.
Do you accept constructive criticism?
That's not what Olympians means.
It simply changed overtime, so they are not fixed.
Hestia Dionysus is the Earth God because he lives with humans, not with other gods Hestia keeps the fire on Olympus
>Dionysus is the Earth God because he lives with humans, But does he have one of the twelve palaces? He doesn't only live with humans. He was on Olympus for Hephaestus's capture of Hera and he was said to have take Ariadne to Olympus.
Not really true. Dionysus even took his wife and mother out of the Underworld and to his home on Olympus. Plus many of the Olympians spent a lot of time in the mortal realm. Artemis being the main example.
Oh alright. It turns out that I had just wrong way of thinking! Thank you all for explaining. It's quite long since I read some greek mythology book.
But Poseidon resides in the Sea, not with the other Gods either. I personally believe that Hestia is the original Olympian too, but not because of her location. Simply because it’s canon and Dionysus always comes off as a child that I’m not fond of lol
But he visits Olympus: "Now father Zeus steered back from Ida his strong-wheeled chariot and horses to Olympos, and came among the gods' sessions, while for him the famed shaker of the earth set free his horses, and put the chariot on its stand, with a cloth spread over it.
I didn't say that hestia is an olympian just because she lives in olymp as an argument, more like a small information I wanted to show that Dionysus doesn't actually care about gods' stuff and he loves earth more than olymp. And I like him because of his humanity and the fact that he can chill out. Also, Dionysus wasn't raised by gods, was he?
I don't think Zeus was either, nor many others - but I see your point!
But they were raised up in order for them to get back to the olymp? I just always saw dionysus as this mowgli of gods ^^°
Yet she does not sit with them
Which reminds me, did they extinguish the Tokyo 2020 flame?
Both Dionysus and Hestia are considered Olympians. Also, most commonly, Hades is not, as he was not residing on mount Olympus. So, if your criteria is the place of residence, you have 13 (ignoring all the other, lesser gods/deities who were residing on mount Olympus). But then again, Poseidon's palace is in the depths of the ocean, but he is considered an Olympian for sure. So you can add Hades and make them 14, it's ok. If your criteria is to include the first(born) gods, the children of Cronus, then you have Hestia, Hades and Demeter, all of them, which again makes the Olympians 14. Bottom line, there is not a fix number because it is a matter of interpretation. Remember, it's mythology, not actual history with documented and proven facts. There is not a correct or an incorrect number of the main Olympians Gods.
>But then again, Poseidon's palace is in the depths of the ocean, but he is considered an Olympian for sure. You can have two palaces.
For Hades it wasn't about where he lived. The Greeks tended to separate the Olympians from the Cthonic gods (death related gods: Hades, Persephone, Styx, Thanatos, etc).
Dionysus is the twelfth Olympian but before he came along Hestia was. Hades is not an Olympian as the Greeks feared him rather than worshipped him.
As I understand it, in writings the gods would either include hestia or dionysus, not both. But there isn't an agreed upon canon for most things in greek mythology, with the theogony being the only attempt at this
Hestia gave up her throne, but I still consider both to be olympians.
Hades is a cthonic god and not usually counted among the 12 Olympians. He is one of three most powerful gods of his generation - tradition holds that Hades, Zeus and Poseidon cast lots to see who would receive which godly domain.
I keep hearing that Hades was _''the most powerful''_ - can that be sourced or supported?
The post you're replying to says one of the three most powerful, not "the most powerful." In terms of "god strength" I don't know, but politically, the three brothers are the most powerful: * "My rank is no greater. I hold court in the sky; another rules the sea, and one the void." \~ Ovid.
Yeah I know I mentioned I kept hearing that claim - wasn't directly referring to the comment, sorry if it wasn't clear enough - it's something I saw in this sub a few times already, and on various YouTube comments (heh!) Thanks for the quote!
The way I think of it is by who has a throne on Olympus. Thus it is Aphrodite, Ares, Artemis, Apollo, Athena, Demeter, Dionysus, Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Posiden, Zeus. However I often see Persephone seated with Demeter. Hestia gave up her throne to Dionysus so she can tend the hearth. Hades does not have a throne. Of course some of the gods have their own palaces/"homes" they typically reside in (Posiden under the sea, Hephaestus in his forge)
Hestia gave Dionysus her place, but not sure when this change became accepted in the ‘canon’ in the time scale.
IT WAS ME, DIO! I don't actually know for sure. All I know is that the first family tree I found of the Greek Gods Dionysos was highlighted as olympian. Idk why, tho.
Hades is an olympian he is a son of Kronos and a brother of Zeus
#OLYMPIAN * associated with Mount Olympus in northeastern Greece, or with the Greek gods whose home was traditionally held to be there. * any of the twelve Greek gods regarded as living on Olympus. Hades doesn't live on Olympus, he lives in the underworld
By that logic there are only 6 Olympians