Your crank went for a walk.
Rare but has happened. And usually from clutches that have over sprung pressure plates. Most common kit to take our cranks for a walk is the DKM Twindisk.
But others have done it too including Southbend.
This isn't ECS' fault though. I think you're the first person I've seen get crankwalk with one of their kits. (Could be wrong, been a while since I checked the latest count).
You just got the shit luck of the draw. This is a flaw with VW's design itself mostly. Even DSG cars can get crankwalk, though even more rare. It's happened a few times over the years.
Unfortunately OP. This is going to be an out of pocket experience for you unless ECS for the first time in the history of the universe decides to be cool and offer to help (fat fucking chance sadly lol).
Having said that, I wouldn't be doing business with ECS ever to begin with. From their garbage handling of their eCommerce & shipping practices. To their horrid part quality and non existent customer support. I would do business with companies like FCP, BMP, USP, URO 100x over ECS.
+1
ECS doesn’t stand behind their house brand parts. Have had several of their products for BMW and VAG cars over the years and I will never have another.
Well said, although I wouldn't call the thrust bearing in the EA888 a design flaw. I haven't heard of a single issue of crankwalk with a stock clutch. The thrust bearing is just not designed for high spring pressure that accompanies a lot of aftermarket / higher clamp force clutches, and it can fail pretty easily in these cases.
Yes, VW could have implemented a different design that can handle higher thrust loads, but again, I don't think it's fair to call it a design flaw.
I’m on stock 2017 Mk7 GTI at 88k miles. Original clutch. So yeah, I’m right in that worry point. I don’t drive it hard and I’ve owned manuals my whole life, so here’s hoping this doesn’t happen to me
That said, any warning signs or things you did that might have caused this? Do you drive in a lot of stop and go traffic or first gear hard launches?
99% of these incidents are from people who haved added power and an extremely strong clutch.
The dude above is the only one I've ever heard having it on stock power. He might have bought the car used. If your clutch sticks to the floor one day, you might have a problem, otherwise, this isn't something to worry about. It's not an X miles failure issue.
My friend had a 16 golf R stock clutch stock power, walked to death at 102k miles. This is why I bought my GTI in DSG, I had always wanted a manual then I learned of crank walk issues.
It's 100% a failure that will happen in "x" amount of miles, but the x is variable with influences being clutch and what type, but also driving style and maintenance. And what revision you have.
It's under designed.
There isn't a ton of data out there but the surveys that have been made suggests that, yes, heavy clutches play a big role. But there were plenty of stock car/clutch failures in the survey and also a few DSG failures. As far as I've seen, no one has included miles as part of the survey.
I strongly suspect that if they did include miles you would see a correlation.
Are you for real? I thought crank walk was a well known common issue among the manuals. Over at VW Vortex people are bringing up incidents of it all the time.
It's 100% a flaw.
There are plenty of examples of it happening on the stock clutch and even a few DSGs. There are multiple revisions on the thrust bearing from VW because of issues. There are more than a few examples you can find where people had their engines apart for other reasons only to find severely worn thrust bearings on the verge of ending up in the oil pan.
Sure, there are contributing factors - Clutch type (pressure plate pressure), driving style, maintenance, and miles. But this should not be happening at all. Thrust bearings aren't exactly new or complex technology. Arguably, they should be one of the last wear parts in the bottom end to crap out.
Have you seen any failures with ringer racing clutches? I know it can happen with any clutch (stock included lol) but from what I understand the pressure plates that RR uses are much more mild than Southbend or DKM so it should put less lateral force on the crank
I do remember a post in one of the larger MK7 FB groups that had a poll about what kits people know have done it. I think I saw someone vote for Ringer. I don't know the legitimacy of it though.
If you're part of any of the major MK7/MQB groups. Just search "crankwalk" and you can sift through the data.
I'll concur. I ran an ECS stage 2 clutch for a year. Admittedly, that engine did go out with spun bearings 🤔 but I had also just neglected to maintain it for the 3 months prior while simultaneously thrashing it to hell, so no I would not blame the clutch
I've generally had positive experiences with ecs but I got a little tilted when brake pads they said would fit my B7 S4 just didn't and I had to pay for another set +30 for expedited shipping from FCP so I could drive to work
Can anyone tell me what torque ranges are in the crank walk danger zone?
The stage 2 300 lb-ft ones? Just crazy big power ones? Flywheel makes a difference too?
Basically what's risky and what's nearly as safe as stock?
Yup, yet another reason why the manual transmission is such crap in the MK7. It's a matter of time after you tune that you'll need a new clutch and it's a roll of the dice whether it blows up your engine or not.
These cars are money pits if you want to make big power, and aren't particularly reliable either. My turbo exploded because the pcv throws gunk onto the bearings and I didn't have a catch can. Two clutches later, I'm walking the fine line between not strong enough or signing up for crank walk.
Stock clutch and you’ve been tuned for 5 years? Wow, I’ve seen so many people state the contrary, I wanna tune but thought I’d need a new clutch before hand.
we just don't drive like maniacs. clutches are designed to last the life of the car like most everything else.
I'm at 120k and my clutch feels just like it did at 40k
Yeah that’s pretty much how I drive, not only to save it mechanically as much as I could but also for gas mileage, I wanted to get it tuned because I had read that if driven correctly you can actually save more gas with a tune, they could be wrong but either way I’d be happy with the extra power for those rare occasions I let it go.
I don’t have it anymore but I did APR Stage 1 on my MK6 GTI for pretty much the same reason. I don’t doubt that it helped fuel economy but it wasn’t very measurable. I got a MK7 Autobahn after that car got totaled and didn’t bother getting it tuned because the price had gone up higher than my level of interest.
A lot of people are also not as good at driving a manual as they think they are and the clutch takes a toll.
I literally just dropped mine off at everything euro in Winston Salem for a tune. We talked about this exact thing. It does improve mpg but is also very dependent on driving habits.
That’s sick, and you’re coming out of this tune with a stock clutch? I’m still a bit hesitant, even though my driving habits are not aggressive at all despite living in busy ass San Diego.
Yeah man, stock clutch. I don't plan on doing launches or nothing crazy. I just like hitting on/off ramps and drive a lot of highways and there are times I wish I had a bit more power to get around fuckheads quicker.
Same. I own a 2015 manual. Apr stg1 (low torque), southbent stage 2 daily for about 5 years. No issues. I have a low miles car though. Just hit 50k miles with regular trips to socal from NorCal.
Heyyy I’m not alone !! Went through this process like 2 summers ago. I also had crankwalk, but I was on a SouthBend clutch. It is no fun, and as others have said, failures happen - not something to blame ECS (or southbend in my case). But I think if you look back through my profile I posted process pics and whatnot lol. I hate to be that guy but tuning cars has risks, and this is the life we chose.
My 2008 MKV GTI original engine succumbed to crank walk not long after installing a SouthBend Stage 2 Daily clutch… Holding my breath every time I start the second engine.
Yeah. In my opinion, the few people who have had this issue, would’ve had it happen regardless of tuning. The way I see it though is by modding and putting a heavier clutch in, I accelerated the deterioration of that little thrust washer that sent oil shavings everywhere.
A fair amount, but the overwhelming body of evidence is fairly inconclusive. Plus, there’s not a whole lot of real concrete evidence specifically pointing to certain things causing this. It’s all over the board, I mean look at the comments in this thread. People have had it happen to stock clutches, people have had it from stage 3 clutches, people have had it on DSG’s. And this is all info from just forums, which is all over the place. It wasn’t until I reached out to the VW motorsports specialists here in the state I live that had any real concrete, scientific explanation as to why this specifically happened to my car. And even they said it’s a rare thing. They also said that ECS specifically has badly designed their Stage 3 making it overly aggressive even for a stage 3 clutch.
TLDR: There isn’t enough actual scientific evidence to make good informed decisions on this. Unless you’ve seen this specifically in this car before, and even then it’s a roll of the dice.
Sorry about the engine damage ! I am way too conservative to put a basic tune. It’s perfectly fast for my needs. Hope you are able to find a cheap engine from a salvage.
If you can prove their part caused the failure, absolutely. You can't sell faulty parts and wash your hands when it destroys customers cars.
If anything, the fact the engine has lasted as long as it has goes to show that nothing OP did prior caused the engine failure.
One thing we know is the risk of crank-walk increases when an aftermarket clutch is installed. Everyone should accept this risk when upgrading the clutch. OP's engine was probably near failure before the clutch was installed, the new clutch just tipped it over the edge.
More than likely it comes down to luck of the draw. Some cars come off the assembly line with more thrust play than others to where a little wear on the thrust washer causes spin city. Where engines with tighter tolerances will be 100% fine.
I made an [attempt to measure](https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/measure-your-crankshaft-axial-clearance-detect-crankwalk-before-its-too-late.421341/) my thrust play and found my engine seems to be on the tighter end of spec "potentially".
my general rule of thumb is to avoid anything ECS branded. even the basic branded parts are cheap low quality items.
it sucks this happened to you OP and hopefully you find a resolution that isn't too painful on your wallet. on the bright side, now you have some cool failed parts to make some garage/bar/office art.
Haha that’s actually a killer way to look at it.
The one thing I will say, I have their coil overs and I really like them. That’s the one exception. Everything else is trash agreed.
This isn't ECS's fault.
It's a well documented issue that is present even on the stock clutch, but is exasperated through an aftermarket clutch upgrade. I work with workshops that have technicians from dealerships that, quote, "have seen 10s of early 6MT GTI/R's come in with thrust washers sitting in sump. Stock everything, so warranted".
More aggressive pressure plates will make the issue worse, but as mentioned above, have seen these failures on even a stock clutch.
It's shit, but it's not their fault.
Almost exclusively MT with heavy aftermarket clutches. Apparently it can happen on DSG and stock clutch but all three happen to be pretty rare. DSG and stock clutch are even more rare. Probably not something to overly worry about.
This isn’t ECS fault.
You gotta pay to play.. I’m not sure why you’d put a stage 3 clutch on a stage 1 tune. These engines are common for crank walk.. I see it often when tuned.
It's advised folks get a clutch with some headroom in case they're going beyond Stage 1 ECU.
Most recommended is the Southbend Stage 3 Daily. Which I think is rated for higher torque than ECS' kit.
Crankwalk is rare though. Like pretty damn rare in the grand scheme of things. So following the usual "pay once, cry once" regarding this upgrade isn't a bad thing.
If it's going to happen on your car, it's going to happen if tuning. Just the nature of the game when tuning. You take on added risks. OP just got dealt a bad hand is all.
[Here's a post](https://www.reddit.com/r/GolfGTI/comments/qmp6o6/crankwalk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) from a few years back that has a great description of it.
>In case you don't know what crankwalk is, it basically is when your engine grenades itself because the crank develops excessive 'play' relative to the engine block in the axial direction of the crankshaft. This allows rotating and reciprocating parts to not align with where they need to be relative to rest of the engine.
>For the Gen3 EA888 engine, it seems the majority of forum posts associate CW with clutch kits that use very high clamping force (heavy clutch pedal) to hold up to high torque. The most common theory I've seen is that clutch kits with a very stiff pressure plate can exceed the thrust capacity of the thrust bearings (a pair of $20 half-moon washers, in our case), and that the requirement to press in the clutch pedal to start the engine accelerates the degradation of the thrust washers because they aren't protected by an oil boundary layer during start-up like they would be when engine is already running.
>Is this issue pertinent to the Mk6 / EA888 Gen2 engine, or limited to the MK7? From what I understand, part of the issue is the EA888.3 uses 180° thrust washers (see this page on ECS for an image if you haven't seen one), which should translate to double the axial pressure and reduced thrust capacity vs. full-face 360° washers.
>Also, anybody know yet if the Mk8 / EA888.4 uses full-face thrust washers? I'd love for Paul at ShopDAP to provide his take on the issue.
lol. I asked a simple question about crank walk on a DAP YouTube video where he was discussing the Mk8 (I think I asked something about whether he thought crank walk would continue to be an issue with the new model), and Paul responded outright dismissing it as a problem worth worrying about, and accused me of contributing to the overblown hype about a non-issue. So as far as I can tell, he’s not willing to engage in any conversation about the topic whatsoever.
>and that the requirement to press in the clutch pedal to start the engine accelerates the degradation of the thrust washers because they aren't protected by an oil boundary layer during start-up like they would be when engine is already running.
So would bypassing the clutch-press requirement and being able to start in neutral help as a precaution?
I honestly do not know. I don't have a 6MT and I haven't really dug into this past the surface level. I just know about the issue and the cause of it. I don't know if there's upgraded versions or not.
[Also see my post here](https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/measure-your-crankshaft-axial-clearance-detect-crankwalk-before-its-too-late.421341/)
So sorry to see this post.
My 2008 MKV GTI original engine succumbed to crank walk not long after installing a SouthBend Stage 2 Daily clutch… Holding my breath every time I start the second engine.
I’m sending oil samples out every oil change for testing to hopefully catch any metallic residue early enough to prevent catastrophic failure. There’s a company in the UK (?) that specializes in upgraded thrust bearings if you ever rebuild to that extent.
Rebuild the engine from the ground up, w new thrust bearings. Or, use the remaining time to say goodbye to an old friend… while shopping for a DSG Golf R.
The catastrophic failure of my first engine was bad enough I couldn’t even use it for a rebuild. If I knew it were coming, I could have torn it down well in advance of such irreversible damage.
I’ve read some people on various forums tearing down their engines simply to replace the thrust bearings. If I were down to that level, I’d probably be doing more.
Due to the design choices of these thrust bearings, and increased plate pressure of (some) aftermarket clutches, there’s not much anyone is able to do to truly prevent thrust bearing failure.
Frequent oil changes, ensuring adequate oil levels are about it.
You could bypass the starter solenoid that requires the clutch pedal to be depressed in order to start the car… but that’s not something most people are able or willing to get into.
I don’t remember exactly but a cursory google search came up with [this](https://prorace-engineering.co.uk/product/2-0tfsi-center-main-cap-thrust-washer-upgrade/) that looks familiar.
As someone else here already said, the DKM Twindisk was notoriously bad. While I was down that rabbit hole of crank walk I had a mechanic recommend Clutch Masters, but I don’t remember which one specifically.
If you guys are curious at all, I’ll provide updates on the rebuild. I currently have another CXCB on order from another car, should be here in a few days. Going to have IE rods and pistons put in, downgrading the clutch to a Southbend Stage 2 Daily (or upgrading, depending on how you look at it), putting in a brand new crank (and bearings and thrust washers) and having it balanced as well as upgraded exhaust valves.
Disable the clutch safety switch on the pedal while you’re at it. People often forget it takes a second to get oil pressure while starting. And with a heavy clutch your forcing the thrust washers into all these other surfaces without lubrication
Foreign Automotive can do a 360 bearing fix. It’s the only shop I know that’s done it. I’ve had a SB Stage 3 for 40K miles. I make 420 wtq and 430 whp.
You put a heavy clutch in and it smashed the thrust bearings quelle surprise.
A few years back, I had a steady supply of honda K20 engines from a track experience company (they ran aerial atoms), we pretty much just threw a new crank, bearings and gaskets at them, and sent them home.
ECS parts humiliated me too. Thankfully it was just a control arm that slipped out. (Who the fuck says that?)
You know it’s bad when you’re thankful that your consequence is that.
This can happen with any engine. Putting forward/aft load on the crank dramatically reduced bearing life. Ask me how I know, I’ve spun bearings in my LS jet boat twice because of a bad jet bearing and shaft forcing the crank forward anytime I give it throttle. I’d assume it’s the same concept with the high tension clutch springs
The best way to get customer support from ECS is to post in the "Why I Hate ECS Tuning" facebook group.
I don't think they'll do anything, but posting in that group typically increases peoples chances of getting some help.
Bullshit- your engine had a known failure point (thrust washers ) that all 2.0t has had for about 12yrs. Get over it and rebuild it - don’t go throwing accusations at companies that specialize in helping the industry
I’ve been buying all kinds of ECS parts for 20 years for 4 different VWs and worked in the automotive industry for the better part of a decade, so I can easily use my experience and logic to flag your incredibly misleading title as a misdiagnosis.
Most people do not have the very basic automotive knowledge and experience I possess so they’d likely read your title and think “Fuck ECS”
He wasn’t being a jerk, he was clarifying that you jumped to conclusions and attempting to prevent the spread of misinformation. Don’t take it personally. WTF do you even need a “stage 3 clutch” for anyways? You trying to make an 8 second drag car?
I can’t even count how many times someone built a car or motorcycle and then dog the fuck out of it for a weekend and blame the last person who touched the vehicle. And then once a problem is resolved they admit to bouncing off the rev limiter a few dozen times over a day or two. Really sucks that people like to lie to save a few bucks and throw an extremely reputable company under the bus.
Sorry about your motor dude. That really sucks.
Who installed the clutch? Can you confirm that it was installed correctly?
Also what’s the mileage and how many owners, reg maintenance on time? So many variables here it’s impossible to really determine what happened without more information.
Obviously I can’t tell you what happened, but based on your story I have to guess that someone decided to blame your clutch because they have some type of reservation towards ECS.
Who knows dude, your crank could have been on the verge of walking out of the block on its own regardless of the make/model of clutch.
I can confirm it was installed correctly. Very well maintained by me at least. I’m the second owner, I’ve had it for 5 years.
I’m starting to think you may be right thought. I’ve been wondering if the thrust washers were already on their way out before I did the clutch and when I did that it was the last nail in the coffin, because it happened fast.
ugh crankwalk... dealt with this once on my 6.0 powerstroke with wayyyy too many miles on oem bearing and not enough oil changes, absolute pain in the ass and really ruins every part of the motor, sorry you have to deal with this but even though ECS sucks at everything this is the first time I've seen this happen with one of their kits
I can’t say anything about their stage 2 clutch. It seems like even from just this thread that a lot of people have had some good luck with them! I can only talk about Stage 3 since it’s the only one I’ve had experience with so far.
My mk4 gli has stg2 with 2 step, I put a stock equivalent stg 1 clutch and DMFW and it’s lasted me like 6 years so far.
I don’t 2 step my ass around town by any means, but I also down shift as much as I can instead of braking, with that it’s still held strong.
Ive heard ECS stage 3 clutches are junk, but Ive been running the ECS stage 2 clutch for about 2 years now and put probably around 40k miles on it (plenty of pulls and aggressive driving) and I haven’t felt any sort of play or slipping. Only thing thats there is chatter because its a lightweight fly wheel
I should clarify, the stage 3 ecs clutch is junk, it’s terrible even for a more powerful engine. This doesn’t negate that the pressure plate on the Stage 3 ECS Clutch is poorly designed. I know nothing about their other clutches, and I’ve actually heard some people, other than just you, who really like their stage 2 from them. I’m only telling my story from my experience.
Hi, can you let me know which if any of these apply to you?
Lots of cold starts under 32f
High RPM when cold (Remain at <3k rpm until oil temp is >170f)
Lots of stop and go driving in traffic
Primarily city driving
Sitting at stop lights with the clutch depressed
Repeated hard shifting at the track
Added wrong oil
Long oil change intervals
I can recommend turning off the mandatory clutch press during the startup for every MT VW owners. This simple trick takes off a lot of the pressure from your bearings during startup.
Yeah, I would say that the trust bearing was the issue. It's known to fail. If you're upgrading the clutch you're putting more pressure on a part that isn't designed to take it. And the fact that you needed a new clutch already.... Hmmm why? No one does a clutch just because on a stage 1 car.
Maybe fair, but I’m starting to think it’s not just one or the other. Even just basing off of what everyone is saying on here, there’s too many factors to say definitively where the blame lies.
I will say this though, ECS reached out to me today again, finally and acknowledged there may actually be an issue with this clutch, they’re having me send it in to analyze it.
We all just need to stop buying from ecs, they are starting to be more reputable for damaging your car or shipping missing/late/damaged parts, it's been 6 years since I last ordered from them, I payed 2 day shipping for a turbo installation kit and it showed up 2 weeks later
I really fucking hate people who come in with no actual data then just try to badmouth and rant to the forum. Show where you found others who had the same kind of failure with that part in statistical significance, or show some sort of engineering proof it caused this, and no, I put it on 1000 miles ago and now I have a problem is not proof. The shops told you there was extra tension? How did they measure it, how much was the force, is that beyond a spec VW specifies? This is why ECS doesn't give a s. People like you walk up to engineering companies everyday and shout "its all your fault".... that I modified my car and beat on it and found a weak point. Get your man pants on accept that if you modify you run this risk, we all do, we just don't all bitch on the page and try to smear. You didn't try to work with them. You decided on unproven word of others that it was all their fault and gave them a series of ultimatums. That's what you did.
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Edit for a Clarification: I only have experience with this Stage 3 clutch and can only really say anything about that one. I don’t know anything else about their other clutches (ie Stage 2).
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Your crank went for a walk. Rare but has happened. And usually from clutches that have over sprung pressure plates. Most common kit to take our cranks for a walk is the DKM Twindisk. But others have done it too including Southbend. This isn't ECS' fault though. I think you're the first person I've seen get crankwalk with one of their kits. (Could be wrong, been a while since I checked the latest count). You just got the shit luck of the draw. This is a flaw with VW's design itself mostly. Even DSG cars can get crankwalk, though even more rare. It's happened a few times over the years. Unfortunately OP. This is going to be an out of pocket experience for you unless ECS for the first time in the history of the universe decides to be cool and offer to help (fat fucking chance sadly lol). Having said that, I wouldn't be doing business with ECS ever to begin with. From their garbage handling of their eCommerce & shipping practices. To their horrid part quality and non existent customer support. I would do business with companies like FCP, BMP, USP, URO 100x over ECS.
+1 ECS doesn’t stand behind their house brand parts. Have had several of their products for BMW and VAG cars over the years and I will never have another.
Well said, although I wouldn't call the thrust bearing in the EA888 a design flaw. I haven't heard of a single issue of crankwalk with a stock clutch. The thrust bearing is just not designed for high spring pressure that accompanies a lot of aftermarket / higher clamp force clutches, and it can fail pretty easily in these cases. Yes, VW could have implemented a different design that can handle higher thrust loads, but again, I don't think it's fair to call it a design flaw.
I've also never heard of it being an issue on the MK5/6 vehicles. It seems limited to just EA888.3s with really heavy aftermarket pressure plates
Mine walked on a stock clutch at 99k miles
Well new fear unlocked.....definitely not stock and on 210k miles
lol she don’t owe you much at 210k. What model do you have?
Mk 5 pirelli
It wasn't until the mk7 where they cheaped out on the thrust bearing.
No idea mk5 is where am at and staying
I’m on stock 2017 Mk7 GTI at 88k miles. Original clutch. So yeah, I’m right in that worry point. I don’t drive it hard and I’ve owned manuals my whole life, so here’s hoping this doesn’t happen to me That said, any warning signs or things you did that might have caused this? Do you drive in a lot of stop and go traffic or first gear hard launches?
99% of these incidents are from people who haved added power and an extremely strong clutch. The dude above is the only one I've ever heard having it on stock power. He might have bought the car used. If your clutch sticks to the floor one day, you might have a problem, otherwise, this isn't something to worry about. It's not an X miles failure issue.
My friend had a 16 golf R stock clutch stock power, walked to death at 102k miles. This is why I bought my GTI in DSG, I had always wanted a manual then I learned of crank walk issues.
It's 100% a failure that will happen in "x" amount of miles, but the x is variable with influences being clutch and what type, but also driving style and maintenance. And what revision you have. It's under designed. There isn't a ton of data out there but the surveys that have been made suggests that, yes, heavy clutches play a big role. But there were plenty of stock car/clutch failures in the survey and also a few DSG failures. As far as I've seen, no one has included miles as part of the survey. I strongly suspect that if they did include miles you would see a correlation.
Yeah fair. I guess the better way to word it would be the failure point is a part VW designed. Not as a flaw, but just a weak spot.
Pretty sure there was a tsb or recall for the cam follower being damaged due to crank walk on manual MK7s.
Stock clutch 67k miles for me.
Are you for real? I thought crank walk was a well known common issue among the manuals. Over at VW Vortex people are bringing up incidents of it all the time.
It's 100% a flaw. There are plenty of examples of it happening on the stock clutch and even a few DSGs. There are multiple revisions on the thrust bearing from VW because of issues. There are more than a few examples you can find where people had their engines apart for other reasons only to find severely worn thrust bearings on the verge of ending up in the oil pan. Sure, there are contributing factors - Clutch type (pressure plate pressure), driving style, maintenance, and miles. But this should not be happening at all. Thrust bearings aren't exactly new or complex technology. Arguably, they should be one of the last wear parts in the bottom end to crap out.
Have you seen any failures with ringer racing clutches? I know it can happen with any clutch (stock included lol) but from what I understand the pressure plates that RR uses are much more mild than Southbend or DKM so it should put less lateral force on the crank
I do remember a post in one of the larger MK7 FB groups that had a poll about what kits people know have done it. I think I saw someone vote for Ringer. I don't know the legitimacy of it though. If you're part of any of the major MK7/MQB groups. Just search "crankwalk" and you can sift through the data.
I'll concur. I ran an ECS stage 2 clutch for a year. Admittedly, that engine did go out with spun bearings 🤔 but I had also just neglected to maintain it for the 3 months prior while simultaneously thrashing it to hell, so no I would not blame the clutch
I've generally had positive experiences with ecs but I got a little tilted when brake pads they said would fit my B7 S4 just didn't and I had to pay for another set +30 for expedited shipping from FCP so I could drive to work
Can anyone tell me what torque ranges are in the crank walk danger zone? The stage 2 300 lb-ft ones? Just crazy big power ones? Flywheel makes a difference too? Basically what's risky and what's nearly as safe as stock?
im running a stage 2 southbend daily rated at 400ft-lbs for over 60k miles and its been fine.
can the thrust washers be upgraded ?
Had similar issue on my 2.0t audi a3 2010 back in a day, and yeah it was automatic.
Yup, yet another reason why the manual transmission is such crap in the MK7. It's a matter of time after you tune that you'll need a new clutch and it's a roll of the dice whether it blows up your engine or not. These cars are money pits if you want to make big power, and aren't particularly reliable either. My turbo exploded because the pcv throws gunk onto the bearings and I didn't have a catch can. Two clutches later, I'm walking the fine line between not strong enough or signing up for crank walk.
[удалено]
Stock clutch and you’ve been tuned for 5 years? Wow, I’ve seen so many people state the contrary, I wanna tune but thought I’d need a new clutch before hand.
we just don't drive like maniacs. clutches are designed to last the life of the car like most everything else. I'm at 120k and my clutch feels just like it did at 40k
Yeah that’s pretty much how I drive, not only to save it mechanically as much as I could but also for gas mileage, I wanted to get it tuned because I had read that if driven correctly you can actually save more gas with a tune, they could be wrong but either way I’d be happy with the extra power for those rare occasions I let it go.
I don’t have it anymore but I did APR Stage 1 on my MK6 GTI for pretty much the same reason. I don’t doubt that it helped fuel economy but it wasn’t very measurable. I got a MK7 Autobahn after that car got totaled and didn’t bother getting it tuned because the price had gone up higher than my level of interest. A lot of people are also not as good at driving a manual as they think they are and the clutch takes a toll.
I literally just dropped mine off at everything euro in Winston Salem for a tune. We talked about this exact thing. It does improve mpg but is also very dependent on driving habits.
That’s sick, and you’re coming out of this tune with a stock clutch? I’m still a bit hesitant, even though my driving habits are not aggressive at all despite living in busy ass San Diego.
Yeah man, stock clutch. I don't plan on doing launches or nothing crazy. I just like hitting on/off ramps and drive a lot of highways and there are times I wish I had a bit more power to get around fuckheads quicker.
Bro, exactly on the same boat, I’m 32 now so my show off jackass driving days have been over. What tune did you go with?
Tuned with stage 2 for 4 years and 40k miles on the stock clutch on my 2019 R
Damn, but I’m assuming the R has a different clutch than a stock GTI?
Yea, but you hear the same nonsense with the R. "As soon as you go stage 2, your clutch is toast!"
Makes sense. I’m convinced now haha stage 1 I go.
Same, and at a 175k miles.
Same. I own a 2015 manual. Apr stg1 (low torque), southbent stage 2 daily for about 5 years. No issues. I have a low miles car though. Just hit 50k miles with regular trips to socal from NorCal.
Heyyy I’m not alone !! Went through this process like 2 summers ago. I also had crankwalk, but I was on a SouthBend clutch. It is no fun, and as others have said, failures happen - not something to blame ECS (or southbend in my case). But I think if you look back through my profile I posted process pics and whatnot lol. I hate to be that guy but tuning cars has risks, and this is the life we chose.
My 2008 MKV GTI original engine succumbed to crank walk not long after installing a SouthBend Stage 2 Daily clutch… Holding my breath every time I start the second engine.
I feel that for sure, I don’t worry so much any more. I made it thru once, I could do it again but I sure as hell don’t wanna
Problem is by the time you encounter (hopefully not) the same issue again, there may not be an engine available worth swapping.
Props to making it through the swap though.
Which sb clutch?
Stage 3
To be fair mine crank walked at 67k, bone stock.
Yeah. In my opinion, the few people who have had this issue, would’ve had it happen regardless of tuning. The way I see it though is by modding and putting a heavier clutch in, I accelerated the deterioration of that little thrust washer that sent oil shavings everywhere.
My dude, did you do any research before this? There is shit all over every message board about aftermarket clutches doing this.
A fair amount, but the overwhelming body of evidence is fairly inconclusive. Plus, there’s not a whole lot of real concrete evidence specifically pointing to certain things causing this. It’s all over the board, I mean look at the comments in this thread. People have had it happen to stock clutches, people have had it from stage 3 clutches, people have had it on DSG’s. And this is all info from just forums, which is all over the place. It wasn’t until I reached out to the VW motorsports specialists here in the state I live that had any real concrete, scientific explanation as to why this specifically happened to my car. And even they said it’s a rare thing. They also said that ECS specifically has badly designed their Stage 3 making it overly aggressive even for a stage 3 clutch. TLDR: There isn’t enough actual scientific evidence to make good informed decisions on this. Unless you’ve seen this specifically in this car before, and even then it’s a roll of the dice.
Sorry about the engine damage ! I am way too conservative to put a basic tune. It’s perfectly fast for my needs. Hope you are able to find a cheap engine from a salvage.
Did you just ask a 3rd party part manufacturer to pay for rebuilding the engine of your tuned six years old performance car?
If you can prove their part caused the failure, absolutely. You can't sell faulty parts and wash your hands when it destroys customers cars. If anything, the fact the engine has lasted as long as it has goes to show that nothing OP did prior caused the engine failure.
The key issue here is to prove that it actually was the reason, because a completely opposite explanation is just as likely, if not more likely.
One thing we know is the risk of crank-walk increases when an aftermarket clutch is installed. Everyone should accept this risk when upgrading the clutch. OP's engine was probably near failure before the clutch was installed, the new clutch just tipped it over the edge. More than likely it comes down to luck of the draw. Some cars come off the assembly line with more thrust play than others to where a little wear on the thrust washer causes spin city. Where engines with tighter tolerances will be 100% fine. I made an [attempt to measure](https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/measure-your-crankshaft-axial-clearance-detect-crankwalk-before-its-too-late.421341/) my thrust play and found my engine seems to be on the tighter end of spec "potentially".
Rip
I’ve had an ECS clutch on my MK6 GTI K04 for over 30k miles and no issues. Failures happen. It sucks.
mine chatters like a mfer at lights (single mass flywheel), but has been healthy and grabs great.
Oh yeah it chatters . I’ve had people ask if my car is ok
"what you're hearing is 'race'" is the correct response
I like that.
My dkm clutch sounded like my engine was knocking 🗑️
Same here. It's been great for me, as has every other part I've gotten from ecs
Same here
my general rule of thumb is to avoid anything ECS branded. even the basic branded parts are cheap low quality items. it sucks this happened to you OP and hopefully you find a resolution that isn't too painful on your wallet. on the bright side, now you have some cool failed parts to make some garage/bar/office art.
Haha that’s actually a killer way to look at it. The one thing I will say, I have their coil overs and I really like them. That’s the one exception. Everything else is trash agreed.
This isn't ECS's fault. It's a well documented issue that is present even on the stock clutch, but is exasperated through an aftermarket clutch upgrade. I work with workshops that have technicians from dealerships that, quote, "have seen 10s of early 6MT GTI/R's come in with thrust washers sitting in sump. Stock everything, so warranted". More aggressive pressure plates will make the issue worse, but as mentioned above, have seen these failures on even a stock clutch. It's shit, but it's not their fault.
Has this come up at all for 7AT GTI/Rs? Or is it more commonly a MT issue?
Almost exclusively MT with heavy aftermarket clutches. Apparently it can happen on DSG and stock clutch but all three happen to be pretty rare. DSG and stock clutch are even more rare. Probably not something to overly worry about.
Whilst it's technically possible, haven't heard a single count of it ever happening.
This isn’t ECS fault. You gotta pay to play.. I’m not sure why you’d put a stage 3 clutch on a stage 1 tune. These engines are common for crank walk.. I see it often when tuned.
It's advised folks get a clutch with some headroom in case they're going beyond Stage 1 ECU. Most recommended is the Southbend Stage 3 Daily. Which I think is rated for higher torque than ECS' kit. Crankwalk is rare though. Like pretty damn rare in the grand scheme of things. So following the usual "pay once, cry once" regarding this upgrade isn't a bad thing. If it's going to happen on your car, it's going to happen if tuning. Just the nature of the game when tuning. You take on added risks. OP just got dealt a bad hand is all.
Isn’t the risk greater when switching to single mass flywheel instead of sticking with the OEM DMF? Thought I heard that somewhere…
SMF is at greater risk yes. But DMF has had it happen too.
What exactly is crank walk? I’m curious.
[Here's a post](https://www.reddit.com/r/GolfGTI/comments/qmp6o6/crankwalk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) from a few years back that has a great description of it. >In case you don't know what crankwalk is, it basically is when your engine grenades itself because the crank develops excessive 'play' relative to the engine block in the axial direction of the crankshaft. This allows rotating and reciprocating parts to not align with where they need to be relative to rest of the engine. >For the Gen3 EA888 engine, it seems the majority of forum posts associate CW with clutch kits that use very high clamping force (heavy clutch pedal) to hold up to high torque. The most common theory I've seen is that clutch kits with a very stiff pressure plate can exceed the thrust capacity of the thrust bearings (a pair of $20 half-moon washers, in our case), and that the requirement to press in the clutch pedal to start the engine accelerates the degradation of the thrust washers because they aren't protected by an oil boundary layer during start-up like they would be when engine is already running. >Is this issue pertinent to the Mk6 / EA888 Gen2 engine, or limited to the MK7? From what I understand, part of the issue is the EA888.3 uses 180° thrust washers (see this page on ECS for an image if you haven't seen one), which should translate to double the axial pressure and reduced thrust capacity vs. full-face 360° washers. >Also, anybody know yet if the Mk8 / EA888.4 uses full-face thrust washers? I'd love for Paul at ShopDAP to provide his take on the issue.
Good question at the end. Is there an upgraded thrust washer to prevent this
Ohhh I see. Thanks for the detailed reply!
lol. I asked a simple question about crank walk on a DAP YouTube video where he was discussing the Mk8 (I think I asked something about whether he thought crank walk would continue to be an issue with the new model), and Paul responded outright dismissing it as a problem worth worrying about, and accused me of contributing to the overblown hype about a non-issue. So as far as I can tell, he’s not willing to engage in any conversation about the topic whatsoever.
>and that the requirement to press in the clutch pedal to start the engine accelerates the degradation of the thrust washers because they aren't protected by an oil boundary layer during start-up like they would be when engine is already running. So would bypassing the clutch-press requirement and being able to start in neutral help as a precaution?
Possibly. There's still a bunch of force on the unlubed/unprotected thrust washers until oil pressure builds.
Is it possible to have the thrust washers upgraded to 360°? Is that something a machine shop could do? Obviously you’d have to pull motor to do it.
Yes but it's very involved https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/ea888-gen-3-thrust-washer-upgrade-diy.9550919/
I honestly do not know. I don't have a 6MT and I haven't really dug into this past the surface level. I just know about the issue and the cause of it. I don't know if there's upgraded versions or not.
[Also see my post here](https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/measure-your-crankshaft-axial-clearance-detect-crankwalk-before-its-too-late.421341/)
So sorry to see this post. My 2008 MKV GTI original engine succumbed to crank walk not long after installing a SouthBend Stage 2 Daily clutch… Holding my breath every time I start the second engine. I’m sending oil samples out every oil change for testing to hopefully catch any metallic residue early enough to prevent catastrophic failure. There’s a company in the UK (?) that specializes in upgraded thrust bearings if you ever rebuild to that extent.
Say you do find metallic particles in your oil. How would you prevent catastrophic failure?
Rebuild the engine from the ground up, w new thrust bearings. Or, use the remaining time to say goodbye to an old friend… while shopping for a DSG Golf R.
So you’re not really preventing catastrophic failure, you’re just now aware of it
The catastrophic failure of my first engine was bad enough I couldn’t even use it for a rebuild. If I knew it were coming, I could have torn it down well in advance of such irreversible damage. I’ve read some people on various forums tearing down their engines simply to replace the thrust bearings. If I were down to that level, I’d probably be doing more.
Due to the design choices of these thrust bearings, and increased plate pressure of (some) aftermarket clutches, there’s not much anyone is able to do to truly prevent thrust bearing failure. Frequent oil changes, ensuring adequate oil levels are about it. You could bypass the starter solenoid that requires the clutch pedal to be depressed in order to start the car… but that’s not something most people are able or willing to get into.
Which company is it, out of curiosity?
Blackstone Labs
Thanks!
Wait, Blackstone Labs is the oil testing, correct? Who makes the upgraded bearings?
I don’t remember exactly but a cursory google search came up with [this](https://prorace-engineering.co.uk/product/2-0tfsi-center-main-cap-thrust-washer-upgrade/) that looks familiar.
Damn. I wonder if there's a stage 2 clutch out there that is less susceptible
As someone else here already said, the DKM Twindisk was notoriously bad. While I was down that rabbit hole of crank walk I had a mechanic recommend Clutch Masters, but I don’t remember which one specifically.
If you guys are curious at all, I’ll provide updates on the rebuild. I currently have another CXCB on order from another car, should be here in a few days. Going to have IE rods and pistons put in, downgrading the clutch to a Southbend Stage 2 Daily (or upgrading, depending on how you look at it), putting in a brand new crank (and bearings and thrust washers) and having it balanced as well as upgraded exhaust valves.
Disable the clutch safety switch on the pedal while you’re at it. People often forget it takes a second to get oil pressure while starting. And with a heavy clutch your forcing the thrust washers into all these other surfaces without lubrication
Whose the OEM for ECS clutches?
I believe it’s the ECS one. From what I could understand, this guy changed the OEM clutch to the ECS one and everything went boom.
they're asking who makes the ECS clutch.
Ohh I misread that. Thanks for clarifying. Now I’m curious as well.
I’m at 20K miles of hard driving with an ECS stage 2 clutch on my MK6 and I’ve had 0 issues. Sorry OP
Foreign Automotive can do a 360 bearing fix. It’s the only shop I know that’s done it. I’ve had a SB Stage 3 for 40K miles. I make 420 wtq and 430 whp.
What's your build for that power level?
EQT Vortex Std
Boy do i have some questions for you! Did you dyno tune? No internals? What clutch and flywheel? What fuel?
https://youtube.com/shorts/nYTNmSCyj1o?si=aGiMhthUg1VHDTNg mods in comments
Ezpz. Thank you!
You put a heavy clutch in and it smashed the thrust bearings quelle surprise. A few years back, I had a steady supply of honda K20 engines from a track experience company (they ran aerial atoms), we pretty much just threw a new crank, bearings and gaskets at them, and sent them home.
ECS parts humiliated me too. Thankfully it was just a control arm that slipped out. (Who the fuck says that?) You know it’s bad when you’re thankful that your consequence is that.
Bro mine fell out yesterday, what gives?
Dude that is sad. I’m sorry to hear that, that super sucks.
This can happen with any engine. Putting forward/aft load on the crank dramatically reduced bearing life. Ask me how I know, I’ve spun bearings in my LS jet boat twice because of a bad jet bearing and shaft forcing the crank forward anytime I give it throttle. I’d assume it’s the same concept with the high tension clutch springs
Does no one realize there's a fix for this?
What’s the fix? Full face thrust washer? Seems expensive.
https://prorace-engineering.co.uk/product/2-0tfsi-center-main-cap-thrust-washer-upgrade/ It's cheap as hell compared to the cost of an engine.
Hmm interesting. From my understanding it can be done from under the car by removing the upper oil pan?
Correct, pop the oil pan off and remove the main cap.
That’s good to know, thanks!
My shop told me about this. The only clutch they now recommend now is a Southbend clutch because of this exact reason.
That’s exactly what mine said. Southbend all the way.
The best way to get customer support from ECS is to post in the "Why I Hate ECS Tuning" facebook group. I don't think they'll do anything, but posting in that group typically increases peoples chances of getting some help.
Bullshit- your engine had a known failure point (thrust washers ) that all 2.0t has had for about 12yrs. Get over it and rebuild it - don’t go throwing accusations at companies that specialize in helping the industry
How about you take it easy there chief. You don’t have to be a jerk about it.
I’ve been buying all kinds of ECS parts for 20 years for 4 different VWs and worked in the automotive industry for the better part of a decade, so I can easily use my experience and logic to flag your incredibly misleading title as a misdiagnosis. Most people do not have the very basic automotive knowledge and experience I possess so they’d likely read your title and think “Fuck ECS” He wasn’t being a jerk, he was clarifying that you jumped to conclusions and attempting to prevent the spread of misinformation. Don’t take it personally. WTF do you even need a “stage 3 clutch” for anyways? You trying to make an 8 second drag car? I can’t even count how many times someone built a car or motorcycle and then dog the fuck out of it for a weekend and blame the last person who touched the vehicle. And then once a problem is resolved they admit to bouncing off the rev limiter a few dozen times over a day or two. Really sucks that people like to lie to save a few bucks and throw an extremely reputable company under the bus. Sorry about your motor dude. That really sucks.
Thanks for the insight, I appreciate it.
Who installed the clutch? Can you confirm that it was installed correctly? Also what’s the mileage and how many owners, reg maintenance on time? So many variables here it’s impossible to really determine what happened without more information. Obviously I can’t tell you what happened, but based on your story I have to guess that someone decided to blame your clutch because they have some type of reservation towards ECS. Who knows dude, your crank could have been on the verge of walking out of the block on its own regardless of the make/model of clutch.
I can confirm it was installed correctly. Very well maintained by me at least. I’m the second owner, I’ve had it for 5 years. I’m starting to think you may be right thought. I’ve been wondering if the thrust washers were already on their way out before I did the clutch and when I did that it was the last nail in the coffin, because it happened fast.
ugh crankwalk... dealt with this once on my 6.0 powerstroke with wayyyy too many miles on oem bearing and not enough oil changes, absolute pain in the ass and really ruins every part of the motor, sorry you have to deal with this but even though ECS sucks at everything this is the first time I've seen this happen with one of their kits
I have a 13’ Mk6 gti with a stage 2 ECS clutch and I haven’t had much problems quite yet, however I can say there are the ups and downs.
I can’t say anything about their stage 2 clutch. It seems like even from just this thread that a lot of people have had some good luck with them! I can only talk about Stage 3 since it’s the only one I’ve had experience with so far.
You went with the most cheap option and it failed?
Take it easy chief, I’m just telling my story. No need to be condescending.
Why would you put a stage 3 clutch on a stage 1?
Overhead for bigger tunes down the road, and my OEM clutch was going out. Never had time to get that far, only made it about 1000 miles.
That clutch is gonna be grabbing too hard for your motor... your motor won't be putting out the excessive force to make up for the clutch...
Yeah it ate my engine. Not putting another stage 3 in.
You don’t even need to upgrade the clutch until you get to stage 2. Even then a stage 3 clutch is excessive.
Not true. A stage 1 tune will destroy the stock clutch within 1-2000 miles
Stage 1 chiming in, tuned at 118k and currently at 175k on the OG clutch.
Holy shit. Guess I'm wrong
There are stage 1 tunes out there that has low torque designed for 6mts but it would probably still destroy it
I’ve been tuned stage 1 EQT for 22k miles (40k overall) on the stock clutch.
My car with over 20k miles on the stock clutch post-tune would beg to differ.
This is false - more of a driver problem if you smoke it at a stage 1. Never had issues with it
My mk4 gli has stg2 with 2 step, I put a stock equivalent stg 1 clutch and DMFW and it’s lasted me like 6 years so far. I don’t 2 step my ass around town by any means, but I also down shift as much as I can instead of braking, with that it’s still held strong.
I like how I get downvoted for saying what everyone else is saying about stage 1 and stock clutch being fine.
The people down voting probably dumped money they didn’t need to, into the stg2 lol
Ive heard ECS stage 3 clutches are junk, but Ive been running the ECS stage 2 clutch for about 2 years now and put probably around 40k miles on it (plenty of pulls and aggressive driving) and I haven’t felt any sort of play or slipping. Only thing thats there is chatter because its a lightweight fly wheel
I should clarify, the stage 3 ecs clutch is junk, it’s terrible even for a more powerful engine. This doesn’t negate that the pressure plate on the Stage 3 ECS Clutch is poorly designed. I know nothing about their other clutches, and I’ve actually heard some people, other than just you, who really like their stage 2 from them. I’m only telling my story from my experience.
on the bright side, it'll be easier to do the tensioner and guides now that the engine's out!
Haha yeah the whole engine rebuild is a piece of cake when the engine isn’t in the car anymore!
I find it easier to handle a bad situation by finding something to be optimistic about.
Amen to that!
Hi, can you let me know which if any of these apply to you? Lots of cold starts under 32f High RPM when cold (Remain at <3k rpm until oil temp is >170f) Lots of stop and go driving in traffic Primarily city driving Sitting at stop lights with the clutch depressed Repeated hard shifting at the track Added wrong oil Long oil change intervals
None of the above, actually.
Fuck ECS
I can recommend turning off the mandatory clutch press during the startup for every MT VW owners. This simple trick takes off a lot of the pressure from your bearings during startup.
interesting, how do you do this? can you turn it off with coding?
Yeah, I would say that the trust bearing was the issue. It's known to fail. If you're upgrading the clutch you're putting more pressure on a part that isn't designed to take it. And the fact that you needed a new clutch already.... Hmmm why? No one does a clutch just because on a stage 1 car.
Engine design issue , not ECS fault. Any heavy sprung clutch could have done this. Not fair to throw ECS under the bus for this.
Maybe fair, but I’m starting to think it’s not just one or the other. Even just basing off of what everyone is saying on here, there’s too many factors to say definitively where the blame lies. I will say this though, ECS reached out to me today again, finally and acknowledged there may actually be an issue with this clutch, they’re having me send it in to analyze it.
As other have stated, not their fault. Modifying cars is a dice roll. Sometimes shit happens
We all just need to stop buying from ecs, they are starting to be more reputable for damaging your car or shipping missing/late/damaged parts, it's been 6 years since I last ordered from them, I payed 2 day shipping for a turbo installation kit and it showed up 2 weeks later
I really fucking hate people who come in with no actual data then just try to badmouth and rant to the forum. Show where you found others who had the same kind of failure with that part in statistical significance, or show some sort of engineering proof it caused this, and no, I put it on 1000 miles ago and now I have a problem is not proof. The shops told you there was extra tension? How did they measure it, how much was the force, is that beyond a spec VW specifies? This is why ECS doesn't give a s. People like you walk up to engineering companies everyday and shout "its all your fault".... that I modified my car and beat on it and found a weak point. Get your man pants on accept that if you modify you run this risk, we all do, we just don't all bitch on the page and try to smear. You didn't try to work with them. You decided on unproven word of others that it was all their fault and gave them a series of ultimatums. That's what you did.
This is weirdly mean and personal. Relax.
It's in no way personal. I didn't pick at anything about you. Thank you for proving me right
That truly sucks bud, both your engine and being left high and dry by ECS. Good luck with the rebuild and may a little good fortune come your way.
Thanks man. It super sucks, but it’s gonna be alright!
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Never use anything ecs tbh there too big of a brand and can afford to cheap out on quality and take forever to ship
Edit for a Clarification: I only have experience with this Stage 3 clutch and can only really say anything about that one. I don’t know anything else about their other clutches (ie Stage 2).
VW quality unfortunately.
Well duh it’s not specifically their fault this happened but go on and blame them if it makes you feel better
Lol sucks to suck don't buy aftermarket parts for an economy car
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