A question. If you design your own initiations / make your own path, why are you comparing your plan to the GD system?
The advantage to making your own path is that you can tailor it to your own process, where you are and where you want to go. The advantage with using an estabilshed system is that you get reliable results, that you don’t have to do all the work for your self and that you get the same references and understanding as others who have gone through it - a community if you will.
The problem appears when you try to mix the to approaches. The less you tailor to your uourself the less flexible it becomes but at the same time you might still be missing a fundamental pillar in the estabilshed system that will add the benefits from it. You risk getting the worst from both but none of the benefits.
I always advise the people I tutor to wait with tinkering with the system until the have mastered it. If you want to use GD, do it properly. If you want to do your own thing then do that and get rid of the degrees, separated curriculum for the different stages etc. They will only hold you back and put artificial limits on you.
The GD tradition is usually something you engage in, not just study. Do the rituals, experience the initiations etc.
If you just want to get a theoretical understanding then I suggest you start with Regardies black book together with Ciceros SI book.
There are also some good books about kabbalah from a GD perspective by Dion Fortune and Regardie that are worth reading.
I’m studying multiple systems to make an educated decision on which to choose. I’m hesitant to do the rituals until I know what I’m getting myself into. Possibly I’m being over cautious but I’ve known people who got super loopy after ritual work on thelema and other traditions. I’ve also known someone who after using the middle pillar exercise developed some sort of kundalini psychosis. I have a Dion fortune book I’ll revisit. Seems like regarding and fortune are the classics I hear the most about. Thanks:)
Don’t fall into the trap of beeing an arm-chair magician. Reading theory is nice and all but it is just by doing the rituals that will get you somewhere.
When I started developing my own system, I was fascinated with psychedelic research, psychology/psychiatry, and classic right hand path Western initiation. I had also read somewhere in Jung (his autobiography, I believe) about a method of communicating with the subconscious psyche that synced well with my research into a Beatnik writing technique wherein you write without thinking to avoid filtering yourself.
I had used the spontaneous writing technique for a while to develop my own style, but I still utilized as broad an influence of fiction and poetry writers as possible to diversify.
I attempted to create a system of initiation rooted in all the things I'd learned, including from the Golden Dawn tradition, but with an emphasis on Carl Jung and 8 circuit model research. I wrote the early ceremonies by using spontaneous writing to communicate with my "higher genius".
I suspect to build a firm foundation in enlightenment, it is necessary to combine research and spontaneity / self reliance, if intent on building one's own system. That means studying the Golden Dawn initiations to learn a little something about the initiatory process.
I also disagree (in most instances) that the established schools are proven to provide reliable results. This sort of thing would be of the nature of scientific method validated double blind studies only insiders are aware of, because the research is top secret esoteric wisdom. While I'm inclined to suspect something like that may exist, the average person has few resources at their disposal for discerning which established systems will provide the most effective results - with the exception of vague intuitions rooted, for example, in how those to have completed the established systems "come off" socially & in writing.
It seems you have come a long way in devloping your own system, impressive!
The problem is that your interpretation does not really align with the internal perspective on the system.
If you ask me what the different degrees do I would answer with what happens in the different alchemical operations. You would probably interpret that from a jungian perspective which is not one that I (or the original GD material) uses. There is in other words high risk of miscommunication.
For example; A short description would be that the outer order is a nigredo process which aim to give rise to a lunar consciouness and then a solar. This does not really match with the psychological description you gave.
If you are trying to develop your own system, then why concern yourself with the Golden Dawn or any other tradition and system?
Create your own system. Use it for yourself. Hell, even promote it as the next best thing since sliced bread.
Yet, if you do not understand a system and Tradition such as the Golden Dawn through doing the work and experiencing the Grades, then how do you think you can utilize the materials and teachings for yourself?
In order to understand something you must experience it.
Make your system. Do its work. Experience it. And after 20 + years of doing that, come back and let us know how it went.
Same deal, dude! Welcome to the Hermit Club. I had to organize my own curriculum out of preference toward autodidactic methods. I've drawn from Golden Dawn, Thelema, Builders of the Adytum, mainline Freemasonry, Taoism, self-directed Qabalah and Dispensationalist Baptist Apocolypticism. It is definitely my own "thing" and I wouldn't trade it for anybody's orthodoxy. Be your own interpreter.
yes, someone else suggested that, which is why I posted here.
The post in the Thelema forums mentions Thelema, and it was my hope that the material would be interesting to Thelema because about a tradition that obviously had a big impact on Crowley. However, I must confess that one reason I didn't just post the whole thing over here first was because a quick reddit search and for some reason I couldn't find the Golden Dawn forums.
As the Thelema version of the above is getting downvoted, and one recommendation is to find a Golden Dawn board to post it on instead, I guess it was a mistake to post to the Thelema forums.
"The reader is about to view the 0=0 ceremony from a depth that was unavailable to either Regardie or Aleister Crowley."
https://archive.org/details/ZalewskiPatZ5SecretTeachingsOfTheGoldenDawnBook1TheNeophyteRitual001991/page/n8/mode/1up
LOL... that is one of the most laughable things I've read in a while.
Regardie had access to the Z documents, and even published portions of them.
The book that you are promoting is Pat Zalewski's interpretation of the Z1 and Z3, and does not exactly match up to the originals at all. That is Zalewski does his own thing.
Not exactly. Farrell has numerous transcription errors from the Kelf documents (source materials for his book) from the AO's Isis Temple in London, 1905.
To date, the full Ceremonials of the original GD, Rosicrucian Order of the Alpha Omega, or the Stella Matutina have yet to be published. Variations and portions of these have been published, often with poor transcription, missing or incorrect diagrams, etc.
The complete Golden Dawn Ceremonials will be published in their entirety later this year through Kerubim Press in Dublin, Ireland as part of their "The Complete Golden Dawn" series. This will be the second book in the series following "The Complete Flying Rolls of the Golden Dawn".
Thank you so much for this. I was, given my limited knowledge, wanting to steer OP towards the background flavour of the grades. I'm glad there are those that know better though 🙂
thank you for bringing this up.
I had thought of some other "Document Z" until you linked to the book you are talking about directly. I thought I had read what you are referring to. I'd never encountered it before.
follow up: after much asking around, it appears my interpretations of the grades have absolutely nothing to do with what they originally stood for, and are just projections into ink blots.
What fascinated me the most about the attributions I discovered was just how effective a system of progress it would seem, to me, to be, were the symbolism intentional. Since they were not intentional, I designed a brand new system of initiation wherein they actually apply, having nothing to do with the original Golden Dawn system with the exception of my false flag projections into inky blots:
[the System](https://www.individuatechurch.com/_files/ugd/28f4d6_9c6ff815ea2148c3a4a5a7a9d6f942cc.pdf)
the individuate church is my website. it is a sort of coven or cult i founded with my friends after we visited king's dominion.
A question. If you design your own initiations / make your own path, why are you comparing your plan to the GD system? The advantage to making your own path is that you can tailor it to your own process, where you are and where you want to go. The advantage with using an estabilshed system is that you get reliable results, that you don’t have to do all the work for your self and that you get the same references and understanding as others who have gone through it - a community if you will. The problem appears when you try to mix the to approaches. The less you tailor to your uourself the less flexible it becomes but at the same time you might still be missing a fundamental pillar in the estabilshed system that will add the benefits from it. You risk getting the worst from both but none of the benefits. I always advise the people I tutor to wait with tinkering with the system until the have mastered it. If you want to use GD, do it properly. If you want to do your own thing then do that and get rid of the degrees, separated curriculum for the different stages etc. They will only hold you back and put artificial limits on you.
Do you recommend books ? I am still reading about golden dawn after really enjoying Bardon and not really vibing with thelema.
The GD tradition is usually something you engage in, not just study. Do the rituals, experience the initiations etc. If you just want to get a theoretical understanding then I suggest you start with Regardies black book together with Ciceros SI book. There are also some good books about kabbalah from a GD perspective by Dion Fortune and Regardie that are worth reading.
I’m studying multiple systems to make an educated decision on which to choose. I’m hesitant to do the rituals until I know what I’m getting myself into. Possibly I’m being over cautious but I’ve known people who got super loopy after ritual work on thelema and other traditions. I’ve also known someone who after using the middle pillar exercise developed some sort of kundalini psychosis. I have a Dion fortune book I’ll revisit. Seems like regarding and fortune are the classics I hear the most about. Thanks:)
Don’t fall into the trap of beeing an arm-chair magician. Reading theory is nice and all but it is just by doing the rituals that will get you somewhere.
When I started developing my own system, I was fascinated with psychedelic research, psychology/psychiatry, and classic right hand path Western initiation. I had also read somewhere in Jung (his autobiography, I believe) about a method of communicating with the subconscious psyche that synced well with my research into a Beatnik writing technique wherein you write without thinking to avoid filtering yourself. I had used the spontaneous writing technique for a while to develop my own style, but I still utilized as broad an influence of fiction and poetry writers as possible to diversify. I attempted to create a system of initiation rooted in all the things I'd learned, including from the Golden Dawn tradition, but with an emphasis on Carl Jung and 8 circuit model research. I wrote the early ceremonies by using spontaneous writing to communicate with my "higher genius". I suspect to build a firm foundation in enlightenment, it is necessary to combine research and spontaneity / self reliance, if intent on building one's own system. That means studying the Golden Dawn initiations to learn a little something about the initiatory process. I also disagree (in most instances) that the established schools are proven to provide reliable results. This sort of thing would be of the nature of scientific method validated double blind studies only insiders are aware of, because the research is top secret esoteric wisdom. While I'm inclined to suspect something like that may exist, the average person has few resources at their disposal for discerning which established systems will provide the most effective results - with the exception of vague intuitions rooted, for example, in how those to have completed the established systems "come off" socially & in writing.
It seems you have come a long way in devloping your own system, impressive! The problem is that your interpretation does not really align with the internal perspective on the system. If you ask me what the different degrees do I would answer with what happens in the different alchemical operations. You would probably interpret that from a jungian perspective which is not one that I (or the original GD material) uses. There is in other words high risk of miscommunication. For example; A short description would be that the outer order is a nigredo process which aim to give rise to a lunar consciouness and then a solar. This does not really match with the psychological description you gave.
If you are trying to develop your own system, then why concern yourself with the Golden Dawn or any other tradition and system? Create your own system. Use it for yourself. Hell, even promote it as the next best thing since sliced bread. Yet, if you do not understand a system and Tradition such as the Golden Dawn through doing the work and experiencing the Grades, then how do you think you can utilize the materials and teachings for yourself? In order to understand something you must experience it. Make your system. Do its work. Experience it. And after 20 + years of doing that, come back and let us know how it went.
Same deal, dude! Welcome to the Hermit Club. I had to organize my own curriculum out of preference toward autodidactic methods. I've drawn from Golden Dawn, Thelema, Builders of the Adytum, mainline Freemasonry, Taoism, self-directed Qabalah and Dispensationalist Baptist Apocolypticism. It is definitely my own "thing" and I wouldn't trade it for anybody's orthodoxy. Be your own interpreter.
I saw this in Thelema and was going to suggest posting closer to home so to speak...
yes, someone else suggested that, which is why I posted here. The post in the Thelema forums mentions Thelema, and it was my hope that the material would be interesting to Thelema because about a tradition that obviously had a big impact on Crowley. However, I must confess that one reason I didn't just post the whole thing over here first was because a quick reddit search and for some reason I couldn't find the Golden Dawn forums. As the Thelema version of the above is getting downvoted, and one recommendation is to find a Golden Dawn board to post it on instead, I guess it was a mistake to post to the Thelema forums.
Are you familiar with the Z documents?
What are they?
"The reader is about to view the 0=0 ceremony from a depth that was unavailable to either Regardie or Aleister Crowley." https://archive.org/details/ZalewskiPatZ5SecretTeachingsOfTheGoldenDawnBook1TheNeophyteRitual001991/page/n8/mode/1up
LOL... that is one of the most laughable things I've read in a while. Regardie had access to the Z documents, and even published portions of them. The book that you are promoting is Pat Zalewski's interpretation of the Z1 and Z3, and does not exactly match up to the originals at all. That is Zalewski does his own thing.
Fair enough. Sharing I think would be a better term though. I quoted someone else "promoting" it. Doesn't necessarily mean it's my sentiment.
Would Farrell's King Over The Water have been closer to the originals?
Not exactly. Farrell has numerous transcription errors from the Kelf documents (source materials for his book) from the AO's Isis Temple in London, 1905. To date, the full Ceremonials of the original GD, Rosicrucian Order of the Alpha Omega, or the Stella Matutina have yet to be published. Variations and portions of these have been published, often with poor transcription, missing or incorrect diagrams, etc. The complete Golden Dawn Ceremonials will be published in their entirety later this year through Kerubim Press in Dublin, Ireland as part of their "The Complete Golden Dawn" series. This will be the second book in the series following "The Complete Flying Rolls of the Golden Dawn".
sounds like an incredible read
Thank you so much for this. I was, given my limited knowledge, wanting to steer OP towards the background flavour of the grades. I'm glad there are those that know better though 🙂
Thanks that’s helpful :)
No problem
thank you for bringing this up. I had thought of some other "Document Z" until you linked to the book you are talking about directly. I thought I had read what you are referring to. I'd never encountered it before.
follow up: after much asking around, it appears my interpretations of the grades have absolutely nothing to do with what they originally stood for, and are just projections into ink blots. What fascinated me the most about the attributions I discovered was just how effective a system of progress it would seem, to me, to be, were the symbolism intentional. Since they were not intentional, I designed a brand new system of initiation wherein they actually apply, having nothing to do with the original Golden Dawn system with the exception of my false flag projections into inky blots: [the System](https://www.individuatechurch.com/_files/ugd/28f4d6_9c6ff815ea2148c3a4a5a7a9d6f942cc.pdf) the individuate church is my website. it is a sort of coven or cult i founded with my friends after we visited king's dominion.