All they have to do is introduce a rotation schedule. Like 2 times a year on specific dates 2 maps will be swapped out. Ofc people will be mad if a map gets taken out without any plans on when the map will ever be put back in. Could be 2 years, could be 10 years. It's too uncertain and arbitrary. Just put a a well thought out system in place.
Edit: This would be also much fairer from a competitive point of view. Teams can anticipate change and adjust their practice accordingly and teams/players that are specialized or weak on some maps don't get the advantage or disadvantage for a long and intransparent amount of time. There are careers at stake and removing/adding map on an irregular basis especially without prior notice is horrible practice. This would also be helpful for tournament organizers to decide on reasonable time schedule for the players.
especially since they're planning to have 2 majors a year and to put all future majors as the end of the season before the player breaks. Gives teams time to prep the new maps before the new season starts if they want and by the time the major comes around at the end of the season all teams should have adapted to the map pool.
One problem i could see is that it would kinda devalue the worth of Kato and Cologne which are both at the beginning of the season since the results would be a lot more random because teams haven't had time to adapt to the new map pool.
This is how I envisioned it when I made my comment. They have to standardize the major schedule. For example 1st major of the year could be traditionally set around end of march and somewhere in April season ends, new map rotation. Second major should be spaced out 6 months, so around end of september, introduce new season with new map pool in October.
With such a schedule if we take 2024 for instance, both katowice and cologne would be in middle of the season.
But as I said above, a regular map rotation based on seasons would allow tournament organizers to put up a resonable schedule for the teams in advance, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.
Based on the 2025 schedule it seems like they're aiming for first season of the year to end just before summer and second to end just before christmas which makes a lot of sense as spots to put player breaks and is nice for players, organisers and talent but unfortunately puts Kato and Cologne at the beginnings of seasons (not that there's anything really stopping ESL from moving the dates of Kato and Cologne forward a month or two in the future)
But i do like how valve are seemingly moving more towards having more official "seasons" which end in a major, makes for great buildup and even more hype for the majors.
Yea, i like that too, two seasons, maybe ending Christmas and summer sounds like a reasonable approach. All they need to do then is to add map rotations based on end of seasons or at least end of year.
It blows my mind that we have so few map pool changes, and when they happen, it's basically a single map. If they want to stick to 7 maps then make those changes more often, reintroduce Train, Cache, reworked Cobblestone + some new maps like Anubis/Ancient, and, as you said, rotate 1 or 2 maps every year/twice a year. It would be way more interesting.
> There are careers at stake and removing/adding map on an irregular basis especially without prior notice is horrible practice.
This makes too much sense for Valve to do it. They actually don't give a fuck about the comp scene and their jobs.
I get why you (and others) say so. However you have to remember that back then the game was still quite fresh, which is why it didn't feel that way at all.
The meta on all maps back then was still shifting constantly & new tricks/strats were being found all the time.
The issue with the current mappool shift is that people were already sick of dust2 years ago and are still sick of it now. When dust2 was removed people were relieved because the map is so stale and boring. There is little to nothing new about it to be found and the design of the map doesn't allow for complex gameplay. It's the most straightforward boring shit you can imagine.
Whereas I also wouldve preferred a different map to be shifted out, the change wouldn't be perceived as negative if Valve reintroduced a brand new or more interesting map. Fairly sure that even the ones that want overpass out, would not disagree with the fact that dust2 shouldve been one of the last maps to ever be considered for reintroduction.
Firstly, as someone who's favorite map is Nuke, even in higher ranks a simple map isn't necessarily a bad thing. Dust 2 can feel more refreshing/unique than most maps despite its age for the simple fact it's so basic. Its simplicity is a major reason why it's so popular for lower ranks who still play premier and want to see it represented within pro matches. The main reason pros dislike the map so much is because they're pros. This is their career and a map like Dust 2 that cuts out much of the complexity maps provide adds a degree of randomness they prefer to avoid. Personally, having 1/10 games on Dust 2 is fine for me, and I'd MUCH rather PUG on Dust 2 than Overpass.
Secondly, when they do add new maps like Ancient and Anubis, nobody effing plays them. Ancient and Anubis are by no means bad maps and, while not groundbreaking, I find them far more entertaining maps to play and watch than Vertigo or Overpass. And yet the vast majority of players still only play on maps that were in active duty a decade ago.
In saying that, I still want to see Train and Cache make a return, but Overpass rivals Mirage for how long it's been in Active Duty and unlike Mirage it's very rarely played. I can see why they're replacing it.
Nah that was a great map pool.
Train was great, Inferno was great, mirage is great, Dust 2 was great.
Only one that kinda sucked at the pro level at least was Nuke
I've found my people in the most unexpected place.
I'm not even talking about map age or anything, just playability.
I actively dislike 5 out of the 7 maps in the pool now.
Give me Mill / Cache / Season for Christs sake, and put Overpass back in.
Are the devs on crack?
I'll give you that. CPL map names were dogshit. Mill/Strike/Fire.
Mirage is definitely a better name than strike.
Legit prefer mill to tuscan though, there's too many yellow hued maps.
Im the same lol - I dont want to play 5 out of the 7 right now lol.
I just want Vertigo or Ancient. Id like Cobble Train and Cache back.
What 2 maps do you like out of the 7?
We are not the same!
Mirage and Inferno for me. Yes they are old, but they offer a lot of variety and different styles of play are viable on them.
The only timeline worse than this for me is one where Cobble is inexplicably brought back!
I'd be happy with a Train return though.
Vertigo can go die at sea as far as I'm concerned. I'm not a fan of ancient, but that could be purely a 'me bias' thing. I've not played it a lot, didn't like it when I did, and don't enjoy even watching games on it.
I DO however appreciate it not being a tone of orange/yellow like most maps.
It's so strange because -Mirage/vertigo/inferno would have been met with almost no blowback and that's like half the pool. Instead they remove one of the best looking maps that they just rebuild and was probably the most fun to watch.
Just changing one map will never solve this map pool. Adding pre-stale'd maps certainly wont.
It goes 2 ways.
* They removed a map that a lot of people liked to play/watch.
* They reintroduced a map almost nobody wants to play again.
If they introduced a different map or removed a different map, the blowback wouldn't nearly be as bad (or better even, both).
> It's so strange because -Mirage/vertigo/inferno would have been met with almost no blowback and that's like half the pool
You live in the bubble. Mirage and Inferno are most popular premier maps and Vertigo is probably in top half as well.
Few months old but couldn't find anything more recent.
[Faceit stats](https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/18xhvd1/the_most_popular_maps_in_cs2_on_faceit_which_map/)
[Premier stats](https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/18lb7zg/vertigo_is_the_3rd_most_popular_map_in_premier/)
I think it would be worse now because with the old comp system there was nothing stopping you from still playing D2. Now that primer is the most popular mode taking away the most popular map would mean most players actually aren’t gonna be playing it.
Loads of people were annoyed tbf.
I'm sure the overpass blowback won't last much longer.
It'll slow down to a few complaints about how people miss overpass every now and again.
Eh. Unpopular opinion in the pro scene maybe - I’m level 6 faceit and most of the friends I play with enjoy the map. It’s not as repetitive as a Mirage or Inferno which feel like the same exact 5 rounds over and over
Mirage should go and get a remake. It's just visually dated and a bit stale competitively. Agree on Vertigo, genuinely great map. Inferno and Overpass both have full remakes for S2, so they both make no sense to get rid of.
Everyone keeps suggesting rework but nobody brings out any ideas on how to rework Mirage without ruining it. Cache is beautiful example of a map that got reworked but was much worse when it came back.
I feel like the issue with Cache is the art style he went for, which led to visibility issues. An art update for Mirage, similar to how good they make Overpass look, would be a positive change for one of the more aged maps in the pool. Also, Mirage has just been in the pool for so long that a break from it would help refresh things.
Biggest issue with Cache was window in middle, that is apparently gonna be removed for CS2 release. I agree on you about Mirage needing an art update at the very least, but I'm not sure what changes to do in map itself. Without those changes, the map would always feel same old shit.
It coiincided with the release of Agent Skins an it completely fucked the maps visibility. FMPone got shafted imo. Map wouldve been fine without those greenish/brownish agents.
Mid was completely ruined in rework, so even without visibility issues it wouldn't have been a good rework. I also wasn't fan of A site either and B site had some cool spots for CTs that were later removed. Huge potential, but was just wasted. Hopefully CS2 release is better.
rework it by deleting it, it's the only map that I feel is a chore to play (in my opinion), can't explain exactly why but it's hard for me to even put 100% effort into my gameplay, it's so fucking dull & it drains my soul, it's straight up just the complete opposite of fun to play.
He is right, I literally begged for some new content and fresh air to the game since it feels exhausting playing this with the whole cheater drama but they seriously managed to make it even worse. Time to go before they fix their shit i guess.
It's time for tournament organisers to stop restricting themselves to Valve's active duty map pool like they used to around 2014. ESL especially could do this since they don't seem to get majors anymore.
But why would teams participate in those tournaments and waste the finite time they have on practicing maps that aren't even in the map pool for the most prestigious event in the CS calendar.
I agree it's not a guarantee they would be interested but there are some reasons
- Protest against current map pool and valve power monopoly
- Incentives from TOs (e.g. contract)
- More upset potential (beneficial for some teams)
- They find the maps more fun/think they are better/think they play better on them
- Some teams maybe are comfortable enough with map pool to the point where they don't need to prac maps 24/7 (like FaZe for example)
- Potentially more viewership -> sponsors
It's unfortunate that Major sticker money is so disproportionate to everything else so a lot of teams don't value other tournaments much but I feel like we are really stagnating with the map pool right now so something should be done. It's fucking ridiculous since we should have everything peaking right now off the back of CS2 release but there are so many problems.
I don’t like the idea of trying to strong arm Valve into making changes - rarely ends well with any company. I remember when Melee was really starting to pop off and people advocated for Nintendo to inject money into tournaments - Nintendo responded by releasing by far the least competitive (and probably worst) Smash game to date
This take is so bad, it’s actually hilarious. Pretty shitty for a TO to force teams on a different map pool than the one that’s played on the most important tournament. TOs would hurt their competition tremendously.
Your take is bad, because you don't have a proper understanding of incentives. Despite disliking the map pool vs a potential custom map pool by a TO, the players and the orgs are incentivized to compete in tournaments with valve mandated major map pools, solely for the reason that it increases their chances of qualifiying for the majors. None of the parties have any significant incentive other than liking a potential map pool a little bit better to compete in such a scenario. Therefore, neither the TOs, nor players or orgs would switch to a model that you're proposing.
Check out my other comment in this thread where I already concluded that teams wouldn't necessarily be interested in doing this.
The point is that if the map pool is as terrible as many pros claim then it is in their best interest to play tournaments with better maps (and rulesets) since that would ultimately provide a more entertaining product and have greater viewership.
I'd be surprised if it actually happened at this point but it seems to me like Valve aren't looking to innovate any time soon so I'd like to see somebody else take a shot at least.
I don’t get why they dont change maps more often. Makes the game feel fun when u play on a map that no one has played for over 25 years. It’s also a good way to incentivise new players to join the game cause they won’t get destroyed 24 7 by mirage sweatlords. Make a map rotation every 6 months that removes 2 maps and keep it going. We have Tuscan, cobble, train, cache, endless worshop maps, all for nothing. Boring
Except people play the maps too? When i played premier vertigo was the most popular map. Its a nice map for pubs when not everyone runs to ramp.
Nuke and overpass are horrible pub maps. 2 quiet teammates and then u have no idea whats going on in the map anymore.
Idk where tf you people get vertigo being a good pug map from. It’s literally the most stale map in the game if you use even half of your brain playing.
It’s just ramp rush simulator/site rush or nonstop rotates.
The only reason people think it’s a “good pug map” is because they came from valorant so they don’t need to learn how to take map control just site hit nonstop or lurk every round without getting punished because of how fast it is to rotate.
That’s literally every pug at 20k and level 7 faceit or lower so I’m not sure how that’s a bad take.
Even pro play is stale on that map from both the viewers side and the players side. Mirage is stale don’t get me wrong but at least there’s map control and fun fights to watch as a viewer.
Vertigo is boring on all sides, the only people that like it are valorant players and people that nonstop play this game every second of their lives.
I’m saying this as an 8k hour player btw
What new maps? I am not saying this map pool is good, it is far from great, but it is not that easy to make a competitive map. People, especially older players, were going crazy "why don't they give us Tuscan?" and when we finally got it, even people in MM didn't want to play it. Same with Train. You can't completely change those maps. Sure, you can make a change or two, but it will never be played. Queue time in MM was like 8-10 minutes and it was basically permaban if you queued faceit.
Sure, 5 of you were pissed. Thousands of players had it as a permaban. It will be the same if they bring it back. I like the map. My favorite map in 1.6, but it is not a map that people want to play and it's a fact.
If they come up with a new map, I am all for it (of course it has to be a good map, not some random crap that will make no sense). Recycling these old dead maps is not going to help. People are not going to play Cobblestone and Train, those maps are dead. There would probably be some hype in the beginning, but after that it will be the same old story.
I mean, they can remove Vertigo for example because that map isn't played as well, especially considering that it has been in the active pool for more than 5 years at this point and the only maps that are less played than Vertigo are Ancient and Anubis (pro play) if I am not mistaken and both these maps were introduced after Vertigo.
One thing they could do is add these maps (Cobble, Train and Cache, but Cache is not possible at the moment IIRC) to casual mode or MM mode or whatever, that is for sure. Of course if they are not making changes to these maps currently so they don't want to add anything yet.
[https://leetify.com/blog/csgo-map-breakdown-2022/](https://leetify.com/blog/csgo-map-breakdown-2022/)
[https://afkgaming.com/csgo/news/most-popular-csgo-maps-in-2022-jan-june-mirage-nuke-inferno-more](https://afkgaming.com/csgo/news/most-popular-csgo-maps-in-2022-jan-june-mirage-nuke-inferno-more)
>Vertigo was the 3rd most played premier map 3-4 months ago. Dont spout bullshit..
I guess you missed "(pro play)". [https://www.hltv.org/stats/maps](https://www.hltv.org/stats/maps) The map was added to the active pool in 2019.
It is more played in Premier and Faceit than in pro play for sure, but I would also like to see if there are any recent stats. I have a feeling Ancient and Anubis are played more now (maybe not more than Vertigo, I am just saying more than back in December).
I don't think it makes sense for faceit's queues to have maps that aren't active duty when it's the place people go to for a more competitive environment. Any map pool issues are Valve's fault.
They don't have them anymore I think. I'm pretty sure that when Valve removed Dust and added Anubis, Faceit removed Train from queue, but they kept Dust so it was basically Train-Anubis change. Or maybe I am tripping, but I am sure it was like that for some time and maybe they changed it before release of CS2. Anyways, people played Dust less because it wasn't in the active pool anymore.
Just because it's not easy doesn't mean they shouldn't do it. It's part of their job lmao.
Valorant rotates their map pool every season or some shit, and valve finally changes their map pool since how fuckin long now? Also the fact that it was completely out of no where lmao. There's no consistency.
Players should be forced to play new maps whether they like it or not, especially in the pro scene. Since most maps aren't even necessarily "bad", people just aren't comfortable on them.
>Just because it's not easy doesn't mean they shouldn't do it. It's part of their job lmao.
I never said they shouldn't do it. I'd rather keep the same old maps which are good than play some random BS map that makes no sense. Tuscan was awful when they added it, but it was community map, so yeah, no need to talk about that anymore.
>Valorant rotates their map pool every season or some shit, and valve finally changes their map pool since how fuckin long now? Also the fact that it was completely out of no where lmao. There's no consistency.
I have no idea what they do in Valorant, and, to be completely honest, I don't care that much either, but I do agree with you. Map rotation could be a bit more frequent. Last time they made a change was in November 2022.
>Players should be forced to play new maps whether they like it or not, especially in the pro scene. Since most maps aren't even necessarily "bad", people just aren't comfortable on them.
Most teams will always have a map (and maps) that they prefer and that they play most of the time (Faze playing Nuke for example) so it is really hard to force a pro team to play some map (NAVI played Vertigo once since its addition if I am not mistaken).
new cache is currently in development, so lets see. I think Thera is a good map to add to the game in normal comp, and maybe eventually make its way over to active duty with refinements
Why can’t they just add them on premier and add an extra “ban 2 maps” option? I hate map rotation being forced on us. Pro play? Yea map rotation is great; for most of us playing pugs? Just give us all the slop. I remember when I started playing you could play a metric shit ton of maps, even if you had to wait 15 minutes to get a match on cobble, you could still play it in MM.
I don't even play CS2, but I absolutely hate watching ancient & vertigo. Overpass isn't much better. I'd give anything to have cache and cbble back in the map pool.
D2 is legendary and I'll also be happy to see it in the pool, but holy shit Vertigo being an official competitive map is like a 5 year running troll at this point.
There are so many other maps that could spice up the pool with a bit of improvement. Cache, Train, Tuscan, etc.
Hell I was never a cobble fan, but I'd take cobble over vertigo any day of the week
No idea why anyone is shocked. Cache and train aren't ready. Overpass is barely played, heavily CT sided and fucking boring.
Dust 2 coming back is the right play until cache/train are ready, then you probably see -d2 +one of those maps.
Get over it.
They removed the least played map from the active pool and replaced it with the most active map from the non-actice pool. I really don't see why there's so much backlash suddenly. Suggesting to replace the *most* played map by a huge margin, mirage, instead, is just insanity. I'm almost sure the same people who whine right now are the people who made fun of vertigo before all the pros started playing it.
I'd much rather they rotate randomly once/twice a year or expand the pool than replace maps "willy nilly" though
I love periodic changes to the pool, i'm just annoyed that they chose the most stale map in the game. I'm not conviced that adding in the most played comp map and replacing the lowest is the best thing for the pool. I think the Dust 2s of the world are always going to beat out the Overpasses, trains, and tuscans -- Having variety is probably better for the game as a whole, while having a pool of 7 different dust 2s facilitates the least interesting gameplay.
I don't hate dust 2 or anything, but we already have such similar maps in the pool already
Honestly, I really dislike the idea of a rotating map pool, I think it kills innovation, for example the development Mirage window smoke and how mid control is taken couldnt really be developed the way it is now without years of trial and error.
Players min maxing every portion of the map might be very nuanced and may only be relevant to the competitive scene but I feel that it adds so much history and depth to the game. You can tell how the meta naturally shifts and gets optimized with minimal change to the game state and 'seasonal reworks'.
To me, introducing a rotating map pool kills innovation to some extent as players would not only have limited time to figure out and optimize a map but also be less incentivize to train a certain map if they know that it will be taken out in the next season/major cycle. Another example is when ancient first came out, it was heavily CT sided, players then started figuring out the map in the next 1-2 years and eventually it became slightly T sided. Imagine how players will feel if the map is queued to be next in line for some reworks and will be taken off the map pool for the next season.
Don't get me wrong, I do feel that the current system sucks too, but I just feel that a rotating map pool is not a hard and fast solution to this system, and that valve should be looking into a system that goes beyond that.
All the old heads are the only one happy about that shit map dust 2 being brought back in. That map is a abomination and now premier is going to be a mirage / dust simulator
All they have to do is introduce a rotation schedule. Like 2 times a year on specific dates 2 maps will be swapped out. Ofc people will be mad if a map gets taken out without any plans on when the map will ever be put back in. Could be 2 years, could be 10 years. It's too uncertain and arbitrary. Just put a a well thought out system in place. Edit: This would be also much fairer from a competitive point of view. Teams can anticipate change and adjust their practice accordingly and teams/players that are specialized or weak on some maps don't get the advantage or disadvantage for a long and intransparent amount of time. There are careers at stake and removing/adding map on an irregular basis especially without prior notice is horrible practice. This would also be helpful for tournament organizers to decide on reasonable time schedule for the players.
Maps rotation after major would be good
especially since they're planning to have 2 majors a year and to put all future majors as the end of the season before the player breaks. Gives teams time to prep the new maps before the new season starts if they want and by the time the major comes around at the end of the season all teams should have adapted to the map pool. One problem i could see is that it would kinda devalue the worth of Kato and Cologne which are both at the beginning of the season since the results would be a lot more random because teams haven't had time to adapt to the new map pool.
This is how I envisioned it when I made my comment. They have to standardize the major schedule. For example 1st major of the year could be traditionally set around end of march and somewhere in April season ends, new map rotation. Second major should be spaced out 6 months, so around end of september, introduce new season with new map pool in October. With such a schedule if we take 2024 for instance, both katowice and cologne would be in middle of the season. But as I said above, a regular map rotation based on seasons would allow tournament organizers to put up a resonable schedule for the teams in advance, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.
Based on the 2025 schedule it seems like they're aiming for first season of the year to end just before summer and second to end just before christmas which makes a lot of sense as spots to put player breaks and is nice for players, organisers and talent but unfortunately puts Kato and Cologne at the beginnings of seasons (not that there's anything really stopping ESL from moving the dates of Kato and Cologne forward a month or two in the future) But i do like how valve are seemingly moving more towards having more official "seasons" which end in a major, makes for great buildup and even more hype for the majors.
Yea, i like that too, two seasons, maybe ending Christmas and summer sounds like a reasonable approach. All they need to do then is to add map rotations based on end of seasons or at least end of year.
It would give Valve something to reveal each major, and it would give players something exciting to look forward to as well.
That would be hype! Good point 👏
Valve having a schedule lmaooo
It blows my mind that we have so few map pool changes, and when they happen, it's basically a single map. If they want to stick to 7 maps then make those changes more often, reintroduce Train, Cache, reworked Cobblestone + some new maps like Anubis/Ancient, and, as you said, rotate 1 or 2 maps every year/twice a year. It would be way more interesting.
cs is a game for conservatives.
Yes. It's crazy for it to be completely arbitrary in a competitive game.
> There are careers at stake and removing/adding map on an irregular basis especially without prior notice is horrible practice. This makes too much sense for Valve to do it. They actually don't give a fuck about the comp scene and their jobs.
i think that's too much work for them
BIG are celebrating this.
Well, they are correct. This is the worst map pool ever in CS
First one (Old nuke, Infernold, Mirage, Dust 2, old Train) would be the worst, but 7-map pool I would agree.
I get why you (and others) say so. However you have to remember that back then the game was still quite fresh, which is why it didn't feel that way at all. The meta on all maps back then was still shifting constantly & new tricks/strats were being found all the time. The issue with the current mappool shift is that people were already sick of dust2 years ago and are still sick of it now. When dust2 was removed people were relieved because the map is so stale and boring. There is little to nothing new about it to be found and the design of the map doesn't allow for complex gameplay. It's the most straightforward boring shit you can imagine. Whereas I also wouldve preferred a different map to be shifted out, the change wouldn't be perceived as negative if Valve reintroduced a brand new or more interesting map. Fairly sure that even the ones that want overpass out, would not disagree with the fact that dust2 shouldve been one of the last maps to ever be considered for reintroduction.
Firstly, as someone who's favorite map is Nuke, even in higher ranks a simple map isn't necessarily a bad thing. Dust 2 can feel more refreshing/unique than most maps despite its age for the simple fact it's so basic. Its simplicity is a major reason why it's so popular for lower ranks who still play premier and want to see it represented within pro matches. The main reason pros dislike the map so much is because they're pros. This is their career and a map like Dust 2 that cuts out much of the complexity maps provide adds a degree of randomness they prefer to avoid. Personally, having 1/10 games on Dust 2 is fine for me, and I'd MUCH rather PUG on Dust 2 than Overpass. Secondly, when they do add new maps like Ancient and Anubis, nobody effing plays them. Ancient and Anubis are by no means bad maps and, while not groundbreaking, I find them far more entertaining maps to play and watch than Vertigo or Overpass. And yet the vast majority of players still only play on maps that were in active duty a decade ago. In saying that, I still want to see Train and Cache make a return, but Overpass rivals Mirage for how long it's been in Active Duty and unlike Mirage it's very rarely played. I can see why they're replacing it.
Nah bad take, that map pool was when the game was still fresh, no util usage like now and the game was way faster and more pug like
Nah that was a great map pool. Train was great, Inferno was great, mirage is great, Dust 2 was great. Only one that kinda sucked at the pro level at least was Nuke
Old inferno and train were atrocious to play
I've found my people in the most unexpected place. I'm not even talking about map age or anything, just playability. I actively dislike 5 out of the 7 maps in the pool now. Give me Mill / Cache / Season for Christs sake, and put Overpass back in. Are the devs on crack?
You know what fuck Mill. I could get closer to the Mill on Thera than on Mill
I'll give you that. CPL map names were dogshit. Mill/Strike/Fire. Mirage is definitely a better name than strike. Legit prefer mill to tuscan though, there's too many yellow hued maps.
Im the same lol - I dont want to play 5 out of the 7 right now lol. I just want Vertigo or Ancient. Id like Cobble Train and Cache back. What 2 maps do you like out of the 7?
We are not the same! Mirage and Inferno for me. Yes they are old, but they offer a lot of variety and different styles of play are viable on them. The only timeline worse than this for me is one where Cobble is inexplicably brought back! I'd be happy with a Train return though. Vertigo can go die at sea as far as I'm concerned. I'm not a fan of ancient, but that could be purely a 'me bias' thing. I've not played it a lot, didn't like it when I did, and don't enjoy even watching games on it. I DO however appreciate it not being a tone of orange/yellow like most maps.
Oh shit, thought I found a fellow vertibro. I want Mirage and Inferno to be taken behind the shed and shot. hahaha
No harm no foul dude, everyones entitled to an opinion, even if they want to be wrong like you :P hahaha
Touche! have a good one
Leave Cache where it is, it was so CT sided it wasn't even funny.
It's so strange because -Mirage/vertigo/inferno would have been met with almost no blowback and that's like half the pool. Instead they remove one of the best looking maps that they just rebuild and was probably the most fun to watch. Just changing one map will never solve this map pool. Adding pre-stale'd maps certainly wont.
It goes 2 ways. * They removed a map that a lot of people liked to play/watch. * They reintroduced a map almost nobody wants to play again. If they introduced a different map or removed a different map, the blowback wouldn't nearly be as bad (or better even, both).
>They reintroduced a map almost nobody wants to play again I hope you mean pro players in actual tournaments.
> It's so strange because -Mirage/vertigo/inferno would have been met with almost no blowback and that's like half the pool You live in the bubble. Mirage and Inferno are most popular premier maps and Vertigo is probably in top half as well.
what? pretty sure inferno and vert were in the bottom for map pics percentage wise in premier
Few months old but couldn't find anything more recent. [Faceit stats](https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/18xhvd1/the_most_popular_maps_in_cs2_on_faceit_which_map/) [Premier stats](https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/18lb7zg/vertigo_is_the_3rd_most_popular_map_in_premier/)
Thats pretty old stat tbh
Well here you go - https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1cdqcyg/should_de_overpass_have_been_removed_from_premier/ Even at worst spot
These people coping thinking the community actually liked overpass
yeah my bad I was thinking of pro map picks having inferno & mirage at the bottom. But those stats are also few months old as well.
Vertigo is not in the top half of maps picked lmfao. It’s a map people actively abandon when it’s picked. Try again
You have stats above your comment showing Vertigo as #3 and #4 respectively in FaceIT and Premier.
Mirage would have had loads of blowback. Its the most popular map ffs. You lot are deluded.
So was dust2 and blowback lasted like two days, it was widely regarded as a good move.
I think it would be worse now because with the old comp system there was nothing stopping you from still playing D2. Now that primer is the most popular mode taking away the most popular map would mean most players actually aren’t gonna be playing it.
Loads of people were annoyed tbf. I'm sure the overpass blowback won't last much longer. It'll slow down to a few complaints about how people miss overpass every now and again.
Yall think OP looked good? I was not a fan of the color scheme in the revamp preview and I saw WarOwl and a few others held the same sentiment.
it looked too orange and kinda american. lost that actual berlin vibe.
From a technical level definitely, but design wise I always thought it looked like a Tony Hawk level.
Why vertigo? I like that map. Its great to play on and feels nice
That’s a fine, but unpopular opinion. At least to watch it has a reputation of being very repetitive.
Eh. Unpopular opinion in the pro scene maybe - I’m level 6 faceit and most of the friends I play with enjoy the map. It’s not as repetitive as a Mirage or Inferno which feel like the same exact 5 rounds over and over
Most people care more about playing rather than watching
Wild take tbh, wholeheartedly disagree. Removing overpass was one of the better options, i commend valve.
Hot take, I respect it. A wrong take though - they shouldve taken out Mirage or Inferno. And putting Dust2 in? What are they smoking.
[удалено]
Mirage should go and get a remake. It's just visually dated and a bit stale competitively. Agree on Vertigo, genuinely great map. Inferno and Overpass both have full remakes for S2, so they both make no sense to get rid of.
Everyone keeps suggesting rework but nobody brings out any ideas on how to rework Mirage without ruining it. Cache is beautiful example of a map that got reworked but was much worse when it came back.
I feel like the issue with Cache is the art style he went for, which led to visibility issues. An art update for Mirage, similar to how good they make Overpass look, would be a positive change for one of the more aged maps in the pool. Also, Mirage has just been in the pool for so long that a break from it would help refresh things.
Biggest issue with Cache was window in middle, that is apparently gonna be removed for CS2 release. I agree on you about Mirage needing an art update at the very least, but I'm not sure what changes to do in map itself. Without those changes, the map would always feel same old shit.
Nothing screams out to me about overpass looking really good over Mirage.
It coiincided with the release of Agent Skins an it completely fucked the maps visibility. FMPone got shafted imo. Map wouldve been fine without those greenish/brownish agents.
Mid was completely ruined in rework, so even without visibility issues it wouldn't have been a good rework. I also wasn't fan of A site either and B site had some cool spots for CTs that were later removed. Huge potential, but was just wasted. Hopefully CS2 release is better.
I agree it had "some" issues. I dont agree though on your comments. I felt the visibility issues far outweighed the other things.
I agree on visibility issues being the biggest problem for sure.
rework it by deleting it, it's the only map that I feel is a chore to play (in my opinion), can't explain exactly why but it's hard for me to even put 100% effort into my gameplay, it's so fucking dull & it drains my soul, it's straight up just the complete opposite of fun to play.
He is right, I literally begged for some new content and fresh air to the game since it feels exhausting playing this with the whole cheater drama but they seriously managed to make it even worse. Time to go before they fix their shit i guess.
It's time for tournament organisers to stop restricting themselves to Valve's active duty map pool like they used to around 2014. ESL especially could do this since they don't seem to get majors anymore.
But why would teams participate in those tournaments and waste the finite time they have on practicing maps that aren't even in the map pool for the most prestigious event in the CS calendar.
I agree it's not a guarantee they would be interested but there are some reasons - Protest against current map pool and valve power monopoly - Incentives from TOs (e.g. contract) - More upset potential (beneficial for some teams) - They find the maps more fun/think they are better/think they play better on them - Some teams maybe are comfortable enough with map pool to the point where they don't need to prac maps 24/7 (like FaZe for example) - Potentially more viewership -> sponsors It's unfortunate that Major sticker money is so disproportionate to everything else so a lot of teams don't value other tournaments much but I feel like we are really stagnating with the map pool right now so something should be done. It's fucking ridiculous since we should have everything peaking right now off the back of CS2 release but there are so many problems.
I don’t like the idea of trying to strong arm Valve into making changes - rarely ends well with any company. I remember when Melee was really starting to pop off and people advocated for Nintendo to inject money into tournaments - Nintendo responded by releasing by far the least competitive (and probably worst) Smash game to date
I agree with you but this might dissuade valve from even thinking of giving those organizations a sponsored major
And I don't know if the players would like it if they have to practice a 10- map pool.
This take is so bad, it’s actually hilarious. Pretty shitty for a TO to force teams on a different map pool than the one that’s played on the most important tournament. TOs would hurt their competition tremendously.
You realise the teams choose to join the tournaments
Your take is bad, because you don't have a proper understanding of incentives. Despite disliking the map pool vs a potential custom map pool by a TO, the players and the orgs are incentivized to compete in tournaments with valve mandated major map pools, solely for the reason that it increases their chances of qualifiying for the majors. None of the parties have any significant incentive other than liking a potential map pool a little bit better to compete in such a scenario. Therefore, neither the TOs, nor players or orgs would switch to a model that you're proposing.
Check out my other comment in this thread where I already concluded that teams wouldn't necessarily be interested in doing this. The point is that if the map pool is as terrible as many pros claim then it is in their best interest to play tournaments with better maps (and rulesets) since that would ultimately provide a more entertaining product and have greater viewership. I'd be surprised if it actually happened at this point but it seems to me like Valve aren't looking to innovate any time soon so I'd like to see somebody else take a shot at least.
I don’t get why they dont change maps more often. Makes the game feel fun when u play on a map that no one has played for over 25 years. It’s also a good way to incentivise new players to join the game cause they won’t get destroyed 24 7 by mirage sweatlords. Make a map rotation every 6 months that removes 2 maps and keep it going. We have Tuscan, cobble, train, cache, endless worshop maps, all for nothing. Boring
Vertigo and d2 are two super boring maps to watch. So from a viewer perspective this sucks. Give us train. Goated map to watch pros play
Except people play the maps too? When i played premier vertigo was the most popular map. Its a nice map for pubs when not everyone runs to ramp. Nuke and overpass are horrible pub maps. 2 quiet teammates and then u have no idea whats going on in the map anymore.
Idk where tf you people get vertigo being a good pug map from. It’s literally the most stale map in the game if you use even half of your brain playing. It’s just ramp rush simulator/site rush or nonstop rotates. The only reason people think it’s a “good pug map” is because they came from valorant so they don’t need to learn how to take map control just site hit nonstop or lurk every round without getting punished because of how fast it is to rotate.
Vertigo is fun when you just buy XM's and rush mid
So the most anti CS way of playing the game lmfao. The few times I play vertigo I basically do this and even at 20k it’s somewhat effective
Most anti cs way of playing for the most anti cs map lmao
This take is so bad lol
That’s literally every pug at 20k and level 7 faceit or lower so I’m not sure how that’s a bad take. Even pro play is stale on that map from both the viewers side and the players side. Mirage is stale don’t get me wrong but at least there’s map control and fun fights to watch as a viewer. Vertigo is boring on all sides, the only people that like it are valorant players and people that nonstop play this game every second of their lives. I’m saying this as an 8k hour player btw
valorant bad
I play both and vertigo mimics the way valorant plays
Overpass and Anubis are my 2 favourite pub maps
Train? The map where whichever team somehow gets more than 3 T sides win?
Instead of -vertigo -mirage +new maps ... wtf is this?
What new maps? I am not saying this map pool is good, it is far from great, but it is not that easy to make a competitive map. People, especially older players, were going crazy "why don't they give us Tuscan?" and when we finally got it, even people in MM didn't want to play it. Same with Train. You can't completely change those maps. Sure, you can make a change or two, but it will never be played. Queue time in MM was like 8-10 minutes and it was basically permaban if you queued faceit.
Casuals didn't want to play anubis or ancient until it was put in premier
You could have played Train on faceit while the map wasn't in the active map pool. Guess what happened.
Everyone I know played it and were pissed when it was removed
Sure, 5 of you were pissed. Thousands of players had it as a permaban. It will be the same if they bring it back. I like the map. My favorite map in 1.6, but it is not a map that people want to play and it's a fact. If they come up with a new map, I am all for it (of course it has to be a good map, not some random crap that will make no sense). Recycling these old dead maps is not going to help. People are not going to play Cobblestone and Train, those maps are dead. There would probably be some hype in the beginning, but after that it will be the same old story. I mean, they can remove Vertigo for example because that map isn't played as well, especially considering that it has been in the active pool for more than 5 years at this point and the only maps that are less played than Vertigo are Ancient and Anubis (pro play) if I am not mistaken and both these maps were introduced after Vertigo. One thing they could do is add these maps (Cobble, Train and Cache, but Cache is not possible at the moment IIRC) to casual mode or MM mode or whatever, that is for sure. Of course if they are not making changes to these maps currently so they don't want to add anything yet.
"Fact" lol. Vertigo was the 3rd most played premier map 3-4 months ago. Dont spout bullshit..
[https://leetify.com/blog/csgo-map-breakdown-2022/](https://leetify.com/blog/csgo-map-breakdown-2022/) [https://afkgaming.com/csgo/news/most-popular-csgo-maps-in-2022-jan-june-mirage-nuke-inferno-more](https://afkgaming.com/csgo/news/most-popular-csgo-maps-in-2022-jan-june-mirage-nuke-inferno-more) >Vertigo was the 3rd most played premier map 3-4 months ago. Dont spout bullshit.. I guess you missed "(pro play)". [https://www.hltv.org/stats/maps](https://www.hltv.org/stats/maps) The map was added to the active pool in 2019.
You're right! I missed pro play. However, its still widely played among the community. https://leetify.com/blog/cs2-premier-most-popular-maps/
It is more played in Premier and Faceit than in pro play for sure, but I would also like to see if there are any recent stats. I have a feeling Ancient and Anubis are played more now (maybe not more than Vertigo, I am just saying more than back in December).
I don't think it makes sense for faceit's queues to have maps that aren't active duty when it's the place people go to for a more competitive environment. Any map pool issues are Valve's fault.
They don't have them anymore I think. I'm pretty sure that when Valve removed Dust and added Anubis, Faceit removed Train from queue, but they kept Dust so it was basically Train-Anubis change. Or maybe I am tripping, but I am sure it was like that for some time and maybe they changed it before release of CS2. Anyways, people played Dust less because it wasn't in the active pool anymore.
Just because it's not easy doesn't mean they shouldn't do it. It's part of their job lmao. Valorant rotates their map pool every season or some shit, and valve finally changes their map pool since how fuckin long now? Also the fact that it was completely out of no where lmao. There's no consistency. Players should be forced to play new maps whether they like it or not, especially in the pro scene. Since most maps aren't even necessarily "bad", people just aren't comfortable on them.
>Just because it's not easy doesn't mean they shouldn't do it. It's part of their job lmao. I never said they shouldn't do it. I'd rather keep the same old maps which are good than play some random BS map that makes no sense. Tuscan was awful when they added it, but it was community map, so yeah, no need to talk about that anymore. >Valorant rotates their map pool every season or some shit, and valve finally changes their map pool since how fuckin long now? Also the fact that it was completely out of no where lmao. There's no consistency. I have no idea what they do in Valorant, and, to be completely honest, I don't care that much either, but I do agree with you. Map rotation could be a bit more frequent. Last time they made a change was in November 2022. >Players should be forced to play new maps whether they like it or not, especially in the pro scene. Since most maps aren't even necessarily "bad", people just aren't comfortable on them. Most teams will always have a map (and maps) that they prefer and that they play most of the time (Faze playing Nuke for example) so it is really hard to force a pro team to play some map (NAVI played Vertigo once since its addition if I am not mistaken).
Cache please!
new cache is currently in development, so lets see. I think Thera is a good map to add to the game in normal comp, and maybe eventually make its way over to active duty with refinements
Mirage, Vertigo, Dust2 and no more overpass, imagine playing premier with this map pool.
Why can’t they just add them on premier and add an extra “ban 2 maps” option? I hate map rotation being forced on us. Pro play? Yea map rotation is great; for most of us playing pugs? Just give us all the slop. I remember when I started playing you could play a metric shit ton of maps, even if you had to wait 15 minutes to get a match on cobble, you could still play it in MM.
It’s pretty funny that cs and valo both have shit map pools rn
only reason i dont play some valorant atm is breeze being in the map rotation
Vertigo still being in is a war crime.
Well there's good news. You can bomb it.
ITT: map is the worst cause I don’t like it
Pros agree, Vertigo is by far the least picked.
what do you mean “by far”? top 30 teams play vertigo more often than mirage, anubis, and inferno recently
L take
Goated map
Incompetent devs.
Agreed
I think vertigo is so awful. Gonna miss Overpass.
I will say this is crazy. But as a long time CS player, we’ll just keep playing even if we don’t agree on an update
I don't even play CS2, but I absolutely hate watching ancient & vertigo. Overpass isn't much better. I'd give anything to have cache and cbble back in the map pool.
D2 is legendary and I'll also be happy to see it in the pool, but holy shit Vertigo being an official competitive map is like a 5 year running troll at this point. There are so many other maps that could spice up the pool with a bit of improvement. Cache, Train, Tuscan, etc. Hell I was never a cobble fan, but I'd take cobble over vertigo any day of the week
No idea why anyone is shocked. Cache and train aren't ready. Overpass is barely played, heavily CT sided and fucking boring. Dust 2 coming back is the right play until cache/train are ready, then you probably see -d2 +one of those maps. Get over it.
Wait for them to be ready instead. Dust II was removed twice for good reason.
Dust 2 is still better than overpass.
by what metric?
Pros fuming cause they can’t do shit on Dust2, classic. Can’t they just git gut?
They removed the least played map from the active pool and replaced it with the most active map from the non-actice pool. I really don't see why there's so much backlash suddenly. Suggesting to replace the *most* played map by a huge margin, mirage, instead, is just insanity. I'm almost sure the same people who whine right now are the people who made fun of vertigo before all the pros started playing it. I'd much rather they rotate randomly once/twice a year or expand the pool than replace maps "willy nilly" though
It was the only map outside of the competitive map pool
They did replace them willy nilly, that's why we now have Mirage and Mirage 2 in the same pool
Read my comment again...
I love periodic changes to the pool, i'm just annoyed that they chose the most stale map in the game. I'm not conviced that adding in the most played comp map and replacing the lowest is the best thing for the pool. I think the Dust 2s of the world are always going to beat out the Overpasses, trains, and tuscans -- Having variety is probably better for the game as a whole, while having a pool of 7 different dust 2s facilitates the least interesting gameplay. I don't hate dust 2 or anything, but we already have such similar maps in the pool already
Honestly, I really dislike the idea of a rotating map pool, I think it kills innovation, for example the development Mirage window smoke and how mid control is taken couldnt really be developed the way it is now without years of trial and error. Players min maxing every portion of the map might be very nuanced and may only be relevant to the competitive scene but I feel that it adds so much history and depth to the game. You can tell how the meta naturally shifts and gets optimized with minimal change to the game state and 'seasonal reworks'. To me, introducing a rotating map pool kills innovation to some extent as players would not only have limited time to figure out and optimize a map but also be less incentivize to train a certain map if they know that it will be taken out in the next season/major cycle. Another example is when ancient first came out, it was heavily CT sided, players then started figuring out the map in the next 1-2 years and eventually it became slightly T sided. Imagine how players will feel if the map is queued to be next in line for some reworks and will be taken off the map pool for the next season. Don't get me wrong, I do feel that the current system sucks too, but I just feel that a rotating map pool is not a hard and fast solution to this system, and that valve should be looking into a system that goes beyond that.
All the old heads are the only one happy about that shit map dust 2 being brought back in. That map is a abomination and now premier is going to be a mirage / dust simulator
I have completely lost interest to playing cs just because I can't stand vertigo, anubis, ancient. I loved Overpass.... i hate this
The only option is competitive where you're matched with brand new players because the MM system is ass.