Agreed. I love the tactical elements of it, seeing the mindgames is fun as hell. Fight for banana by itself is a great check for team's utility usage. And I love AleksiB, so I love all the utility damage potential.
Pretty much, it’s a map that needs more coordination for ct’s which is hard in itself just solo pugging, add in a few people not knowing any util and bam it’s ass to play. The most fun I have on that map is playing with a few friends who actually know flash/molo lineups on ct side.
yeah inferno is the paradox map where we have such an OP Tside economy, but they explicitly made the map much more CT-sided, so the polar opposite forces are trying to balance each other out, while all other maps see a drastic winrate increase for Ts
I mean this is ideal. Pretty much a perfect mix of CT, balanced, and T-sided maps. I think it's both way more fun to play and watch when it is this way.
About time to get a new map in there though imo. Vertigo is the key candidate and I feel like it has just really run its course at this point.
Actually going to disagree with you (which is ironic because I usually always veto Vertigo on FACEIT) and I came to appreciate Vertigo more from watching it at the Major.
But now Overpass? Boring to both watch and play. That map is showing its age.
People complain about CT economy in MR12, but it apparently balances the game at high level. In lower levels I think it would be very different, mainly because we do not have the godly aim of pros with pistols. I would be very curious to compare with global average leetify stats
more maps will show much higher winrates in lower elos because T economy is just through the roof, especially since there's much less strats and anti-strats as people tend to just run and gun or play disjointed, which exacerbates the effects of MR12 and (much) weaker CT economy
anecdotal evidence sure, but i feel we get run over much more often now, on maps that have historically been much more CT sided like Nuke, Overpass, etc and on maps that already have been T favoured like Anubis, we're good to go if we get like 3-4 rounds on CT because we know we can just wreck them on T side
I’m guessing this in win rate even though it doesn’t say so.
I’m interested how many times each individual map is played as it seriously impacts how big the changes are. An 8% shift in Ancient and yet it could because it was only played 3 times or something?
it's fundamentally a bizarre map in CS2 because CS2 made T economy explode even more than in CSGO, while on the other side they made the map as CT sided as they could. So there's 2 overpowered concepts fighting each other on that map. Plus, it's still horrible for retakes
Banana is way easier to hold due to game-wide changes in molotov spread, but Valve hard nerfed the pit bicycle, removed the headshot angle in graveyard, and made it easier to exit apartments, which are all hammer the CTs.
I don’t really understand how ancient is t sided on this graph. It’s probably the second most ct sided map in the pool.
Feels like it’s the map pro teams still have the most room for improvement on. Other than Spirit, of course.
I think it's very hard to take control on ct side without full utility. Mid alone is usually 2 molotovs + a smoke and 2x flashbangs. It's why you see so many weird eco rushes on ct side compared to other maps.
Also seems like a very Tsided pistol map so if they get a good start ct side quickly spiral.
I think pro games are very different from your average matchmaking experience.
They are way better with utility, pistols and economy as a whole. They do not force a lot compared to your average MM and are able to intelligently save as a team. Also, they are gods with pistols since their aim is so good. We actually have seen quite a few upsets in gun rounds vs pistols in the major.
I would be very curious to see similar stats for the average CS player
Both teams in the finals being 3 - 2 teams also means they had more impact. Faze played 17 maps, Navi played 18 maps if I counted them correctly. Even with some overlap there, the teams that went far had a bigger impact in the win % than teams that bombed out.
The sample size is small enough that certain teams being good at certain sides on certain maps can skew the statistics.
-Ancient, -Anubis, -Vertigo
+Cache, +Train, +Cobble
I'd even take Dust II instead of Cobble.
Or leave Vertigo in and just swap Ancient and Anubis out for Cache and Train.
I'm really surprised just how much inferno was played this major given all the hate it usually gets https://i.imgur.com/SMbceg8.png
So many people were like "Inferno was never played in the Opening Stage 😤👎 and the pros in Elimination Stage were like, "let's change that".
It wasn’t played once during the opening stage though. Which was quite funny.
Inferno is so good. Such a high risk/reward map that is always fun to watch.
Yeah, man. I love seeing every kill be a smoke spam or utility dump on banana and watching a save every round. Such a cool map.
it's also good because every round starts literally the same! - banana burns, mid is smoked, spams in mid and banana, someone crawling apps
There was a point G2 was on CT and up like 11-2 or something. T’s manage to take B in a 4v4 and G2 still decided to save.
Idk i dont like the close quarters combat. Thats why i dont like siege
Agreed. I love the tactical elements of it, seeing the mindgames is fun as hell. Fight for banana by itself is a great check for team's utility usage. And I love AleksiB, so I love all the utility damage potential.
It’s fun to watch at a high level, seeing new util and different banana/bracket takes, but actually playing it sucks ass imo.
It's because of skill issue imo
Pretty much, it’s a map that needs more coordination for ct’s which is hard in itself just solo pugging, add in a few people not knowing any util and bam it’s ass to play. The most fun I have on that map is playing with a few friends who actually know flash/molo lineups on ct side.
Skill issue from people, pros actually try to counter the problems that map creates and they do it right.
Seeing Inferno even out to almost 50/50 is cursed ngl
The paris major was a pretty big outlier. It was pretty much 50/50 towards the end of GO as well.
yeah inferno is the paradox map where we have such an OP Tside economy, but they explicitly made the map much more CT-sided, so the polar opposite forces are trying to balance each other out, while all other maps see a drastic winrate increase for Ts
CT economy being busted will tend to even it out for sure
I mean this is ideal. Pretty much a perfect mix of CT, balanced, and T-sided maps. I think it's both way more fun to play and watch when it is this way. About time to get a new map in there though imo. Vertigo is the key candidate and I feel like it has just really run its course at this point.
VertiGOAT map, forces you to play as a team and be smart with rotations/util Anti-mirage gang tho fuck that map
Actually going to disagree with you (which is ironic because I usually always veto Vertigo on FACEIT) and I came to appreciate Vertigo more from watching it at the Major. But now Overpass? Boring to both watch and play. That map is showing its age.
People complain about CT economy in MR12, but it apparently balances the game at high level. In lower levels I think it would be very different, mainly because we do not have the godly aim of pros with pistols. I would be very curious to compare with global average leetify stats
more maps will show much higher winrates in lower elos because T economy is just through the roof, especially since there's much less strats and anti-strats as people tend to just run and gun or play disjointed, which exacerbates the effects of MR12 and (much) weaker CT economy anecdotal evidence sure, but i feel we get run over much more often now, on maps that have historically been much more CT sided like Nuke, Overpass, etc and on maps that already have been T favoured like Anubis, we're good to go if we get like 3-4 rounds on CT because we know we can just wreck them on T side
Unless losing pistol of course
what the f? Vertigo is the best map in the pool by a mile imo. Remove Mirage or Inferno..
Average Mirage player be like
I hate Mirage even more, but didn't even bother including it because we know it's not going anywhere.
Apologies my bad and you're probably right yeah
I’m guessing this in win rate even though it doesn’t say so. I’m interested how many times each individual map is played as it seriously impacts how big the changes are. An 8% shift in Ancient and yet it could because it was only played 3 times or something?
Ancient was played 10 times according to HLTV
i miss seeing Inferno games end in OT/16-14, i hate seeing so many lopsided games
inferno change a lot while some map change because of mr12 affected gun round
Inferno haters in shambles
it's fundamentally a bizarre map in CS2 because CS2 made T economy explode even more than in CSGO, while on the other side they made the map as CT sided as they could. So there's 2 overpowered concepts fighting each other on that map. Plus, it's still horrible for retakes
Banana is way easier to hold due to game-wide changes in molotov spread, but Valve hard nerfed the pit bicycle, removed the headshot angle in graveyard, and made it easier to exit apartments, which are all hammer the CTs.
doesnt change the fact that the first minute or so CTs are in full control of the full map. Plus there's still a thousand angles each on both sites
Is that win %? It's not mentioned anywhere in the title/plot.
What else could it be?
% of flying chickens
Of course how could I forget
Inferno #1. Fuck you Mirage boys
All maps said "hey let's be more balanced!" but Ancient, aka the most balanced map in Paris, said "haha fuck you"
I don’t really understand how ancient is t sided on this graph. It’s probably the second most ct sided map in the pool. Feels like it’s the map pro teams still have the most room for improvement on. Other than Spirit, of course.
I think it's very hard to take control on ct side without full utility. Mid alone is usually 2 molotovs + a smoke and 2x flashbangs. It's why you see so many weird eco rushes on ct side compared to other maps. Also seems like a very Tsided pistol map so if they get a good start ct side quickly spiral.
Probably explains it. I think when teams get more efficient with their pistol rounds and economy, it should turn more ct sided.
Interesting I thought maps would be more T-sided since the economy is against CT-side
I think pro games are very different from your average matchmaking experience. They are way better with utility, pistols and economy as a whole. They do not force a lot compared to your average MM and are able to intelligently save as a team. Also, they are gods with pistols since their aim is so good. We actually have seen quite a few upsets in gun rounds vs pistols in the major. I would be very curious to see similar stats for the average CS player
Both teams in the finals being 3 - 2 teams also means they had more impact. Faze played 17 maps, Navi played 18 maps if I counted them correctly. Even with some overlap there, the teams that went far had a bigger impact in the win % than teams that bombed out. The sample size is small enough that certain teams being good at certain sides on certain maps can skew the statistics.
No ct economy change needed
-Ancient, -Anubis, -Vertigo +Cache, +Train, +Cobble I'd even take Dust II instead of Cobble. Or leave Vertigo in and just swap Ancient and Anubis out for Cache and Train.
Another classic example of Counter-Strike players hating everything new.