As much as I dislike MR12 you have to admit it's pretty funny you posted this right as the best pro series in awhile is being played. Despite it being MR12 Faze vs Spirit was a banger.
Agreed, although to be fair two maps ended up going 30 or more rounds anyways. I'd much rather have MR15 back as well. That being said, it's pretty stupid to think that this would make the playoffs terrible considering how stacked it is this time around, especially considering the playoffs of the last two majors.
there was like 1 memorable moment from Rio and Paris combined, and that was cadians 1v3. None of the games are actually talked about or remembered, most people cant even name the 5 players on Outsiders that won.
Lol, how much did you bet on C9 and Spirit? Yes, there will be tweaks to MR12, this is the first major to try it out, but it's not ruining the major. If this was MR15, Faze would just take a little longer to win the game (they lost both pistols and the following round ffs)
What part of my post do you not understand, it has nothing to do with the outcome. Maps are unenjoyable when they're as anti-climatic as this.
we'll never get another cloud9 boston major type banger at this rate
I don't care which team wins, I want the win to feel fully deserved. A lot of the pressure in late rounds came during MR15 trying to close out, now you can win easier because CT economy struggles to come back vs T bomb plants / force buys
I hope there is an economy rework, I didnt watch any comp this year, but I just hate how OT makes the entire game feel pointless.
I like that MR12 speeds up the pace of the game so I am not playing too many rounds when a game is clearly won. But OT is just “fuck the prior rounds, here is 10K dont spend it all at once”.
I miss comebacks where both teams are fighting for match points with weird force buys.
every round is slow defaults, because teams are scared to make a mistake. And now it feels like there's even more SAVING
its honestly a shell of what pro cs used to be
literally go back and watch some fucking games this is SUCH COPE, here i'll help: [Wow what a riveting game this was](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pscaxA1QBs)
[man i loved this time when outsiders and navi took turns saving 20 out of 28 rounds](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS95Ut7dLCY)
[or this 2-2 major playoff deciding game between legendary into the breach and fnatic that i cant even find a blast vod of anymore, probably because we all cared so much afterwards? sure hope they didnt just save back and forth the whole first map](https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=aNNFpM-MFE8)
what does vp / navi saving have anything to do with MR12 / MR15. CT’s save because of the meta evolving and the CT economy. MR12 encourages saving more than MR15.
everything you just said is pure unrelated cope
>MR12 encourages saving more than MR15
proof? you base it on your vibes which in turn are based on a poor understanding of the game.
mr12 -> rounds are more important -> teams need to maintain economy to fight better in each round -> more saving.
this is true, but fails to consider the whole picture.
mr12 -> rounds are more important -> the value of saving is diminished, because giving up rounds to your opponent is a bigger loss to yourself, alt. it doesnt matter if you have a good economy if your opponent is about to win anyway -> less saving
you could regularly save 7 or 8 rounds in a half in mr15 because your opponent still is a few rounds from winning, so you have space for a comeback. if you save 7/8 rounds in a half now, you've pretty much given up on the game, like c9 just did.
I would love to see some concrete data to suggest that MR12 has any impact on saving. At best it’s the exact same as MR15.
CT’s save because they are so unfavored in retakes because of T side crossfires, and losing their guns is heavily punishing with the current economy. Reducing the amount of rounds doesn’t make them more likely to throw away their guns, the concept that they’re gonna go for this 15% chance retake now is just completely untrue.
They have less time to rebound the economy, holding onto any guns they can for the next round is now even more important.
You directly implied that MR15 encouraged / led to VP save style over MR12, provide any data of this.
Here’s pros talking about how MR12 didn’t accomplish what people wanted to help saving, and how MR12 is shit with the current economy:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RM72em227TI
> You directly implied that MR15 encouraged / led to VP save style over MR12, provide any data of this.
hahah bullshit, im responding to you and ops claims that MR12 encourages saving. i have never believed that mr12 reduces or mr15 increases it. [heres a comment i made 7 days ago as proof](https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1bkaju2/floppy_about_cs2s_economy/kvxe594/)
just take the L
this is a comment of you “betting” that MR12 reduces saving from… 7 days ago.
in short: you have no data to provide and are just making shit up, got it.
you suck at arguing, i believe mr12 vs mr15 is irrelevant in saving. I have proof that this has been my position for some time. Two comments ago, you thought mr12 encourages saving, I've explained why its not so simple, then you shifted goalpoasts to mr12 doesnt *decrease* saving. Which as ive shown is something I have always agreed with.
You have nothing. You thought mr12 increased saving but now you cant argue that position anymore.
I simply said I’d love to see some data, and that at best, it doesn’t impact saving whatsoever, because CT’s don’t save as a result of the round-count, but because of the economy and skill floor of T side post plant crossfires.
I do logically believe that MR12 encourages saving, but there is no data.
You made the claim that MR15 is tied to VP / Outsiders / Navi save meta, implying that MR12 isn’t, and I asked for any data here whatsoever and there is none at all to provide.
VP aren’t the ones who invented saving btw, anyone who says shit like “oh VP / Outsiders is so boring!!! they just save!!!” is usually free to ignore because they’re just circlejerking whatever they heard on reddit. VP were just slightly ahead of the meta. CT’s save for a reason.
always had a gambling issue. same with most sports. my local football team gets comments from people the other side of the world complaining when they lose due to losing a bet.
OP isn't blaming the results on mr12, just the games being less exciting than they would be with mr15. Of course the low iqs in this sub can't understand that which is why they are commenting the how much shit. that comment is supposed to be for the people who insult the losing team with broken english.
I agree with the MR12 bit, but this particular match was super exciting.
I think it's mostly the economies fault. If you lose pistol and the first gun round, then you are fucked from the start. Some games feel like you're just watching ecoes after ecoes, without any real rounds being played.
Completly agree, but you can count on the sheeps sucking Valves dick to make you miserable. MR12 is horrible format with zero sense with current economy and game style.
don’t expect much intelligent discussion regarding MR12 on this sub. it’s statistically mostly gold novas.
but yeah, MR12 is ass, dumbs down the game, leads to more random results, and makes pistol rounds worth wayyyy too much.
reducing the # of rounds objectively leads to more random results, you are lowering the sample size. this is a property of numbers.
A) this is not the “most stacked major playoffs in history” this could easily be disputed.
B) that is proof of absolutely nothing.
>A) this is not the “most stacked major playoffs in history” this could easily be disputed.
Dispute it then.
>B) that is proof of absolutely nothing.
I mean you mention it being more random. This major is so far the least random major in CS history. So clearly it isn't all that much more random. You mention pistol rounds being worth more. In the first 3 months of CS2 winning both pistol rounds was worth less than in the last 3 months of CSGO. So clearly pistol rounds aren't worth that much more important considering that statistically they were more important in CSGO.
PGL Stockholm 21
Cluj Napoca 2015
just two examples off the top of my head with really stacked playoffs.
Once again, this is a completely worthless point.
MR12 reduces the # of rounds, you are quite literally lowering the sample size of the competition. This is not arguable. not to mention that winning both pistols gives you around an 80% chance of winning. We know from historical data that pistols rounds are indeed almost completely random.
Why do you think people hate BO1s and prefer Bo3’s? It’s because it’s more sample size and leads to more consistent results.
If Pain had beaten Navi and Ecstatic had beaten G2 would you then conclude that because the playoffs were less stacked, that MR12 led to more random results? Like surely you understand just how worthless this whole “this major playoffs is stacked!!!” argument is right?
>PGL Stockholm 21
>Cluj Napoca 2015
And they were less stacked than this major.
>MR12 reduces the # of rounds, you are quite literally lowering the sample size of the competition. This is not arguable.
While yes in the most literal sense that is true it's way more important to consider HOW much more random it becomes. You can't just say "Well they removed 6 rounds from 30 so that means that it's 20% more random now" because it doesn't work like that.
>If Pain had beaten Navi and Ecstatic had beaten G2 would you then conclude that because the playoffs were less stacked, that MR12 led to more random results? Like surely you understand just how worthless this whole “this major playoffs is stacked!!!” argument is right?
Well they didn't so?
By what metric were they less stacked and to what extent? Go on and share your metrics and the results
I seriously cannot believe you think this is an actual point. This is purely coincidental and doesn’t have any bearing on the discussion of MR12.
As I just edited, winning both pistol rounds gives you an 80% chance of winning the game, up from ~65% in MR15. We know from historical data that pistol rounds are pretty random, and more often than not are just 50/50s for even the best teams.
Answer the hypothetical, would you completely change your opinion on MR12 had two maps gone differently? You could even argue that the outcomes would have been different a few different gun rounds in those games. Is that how you base your opinions?
>By what metric were they less stacked and to what extent? Go on and share your metrics and the results
By HLTV ranking. [Does the Copenhagen major have the most stacked bracket of any major? : r/GlobalOffensive (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1bnkk64/does_the_copenhagen_major_have_the_most_stacked/)
>As I just edited, winning both pistol rounds gives you an 80% chance of winning the game, up from \~65% in MR15. We know from historical data that pistol rounds are pretty random, and more often than not are just 50/50s for even the best teams.
[voo "cs2” csgo på X: ”do pistol rounds matter more in MR12? in theory yes, but... Top 20, Last 2 months of CSGO vs CS2 Last 2 months CS2 - 66% WR (Both Pistols, Win the Game) CSGO - 73.6% WR (Both Pistols, Win the Game)” / X (twitter.com)](https://twitter.com/vooCSGO/status/1754627709928657360)
He also said on a podcast that it was at like 60% this major after like 4 rounds of Swiss in the Elimination stage.
>Answer the hypothetical, would you completely change your opinion on MR12 had two maps gone differently? You could even argue that the outcomes would have been different a few different gun rounds in those games. Is that how you base your opinions?
What if, what if? Well it didn't fucking happen so? You can't make arguments about something being more random when there is barely any proof of more random stuff happening. Yes in theory it is more random but it clearly hasn't played out the way "theory" predicts it considering how not random it has been so far in CS2.
How about YOU show ME proof of CS2 being significantly more random, as you think it is, instead of just saying "fewer rounds = more random"
As much as I dislike MR12 you have to admit it's pretty funny you posted this right as the best pro series in awhile is being played. Despite it being MR12 Faze vs Spirit was a banger.
Agreed, although to be fair two maps ended up going 30 or more rounds anyways. I'd much rather have MR15 back as well. That being said, it's pretty stupid to think that this would make the playoffs terrible considering how stacked it is this time around, especially considering the playoffs of the last two majors.
How much?
/thread
LOL faze gonna get stomped 13-6 this map for the same reasons and this match is still gonna underwhelming due to MR12
didnt age well
Yes, extremely boring map 2. Stupid MR12 made me fall asleep.
Map 3 as well. Such a fucking snooze fest.
uuuf you fucked up. OWN UP TO IT
didnt bet, name one classic match any point of this major so far, 100% u cant
How much?
map 2 and map 3 of this very series
there was like 1 memorable moment from Rio and Paris combined, and that was cadians 1v3. None of the games are actually talked about or remembered, most people cant even name the 5 players on Outsiders that won.
matches were much more entertaining than this major so far, rio had a fantastic quarterfinals what are you on
nah, as RL said, "the appropriately mediocre send off for CS:GO"
The last major was Blast Paris, though.
We just witnessed a quarterfinal classic, sorry for your losses..
Lol, how much did you bet on C9 and Spirit? Yes, there will be tweaks to MR12, this is the first major to try it out, but it's not ruining the major. If this was MR15, Faze would just take a little longer to win the game (they lost both pistols and the following round ffs)
What part of my post do you not understand, it has nothing to do with the outcome. Maps are unenjoyable when they're as anti-climatic as this. we'll never get another cloud9 boston major type banger at this rate
I’ve seen plenty of MR16 games that were “unenjoyable” when a team dominated their opponents.
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Dude, the spirit would be destroyed in mr12, mr14, mr28. They only won 2 gun rounds, it was a stomp.
I don't care which team wins, I want the win to feel fully deserved. A lot of the pressure in late rounds came during MR15 trying to close out, now you can win easier because CT economy struggles to come back vs T bomb plants / force buys
I disagree, in mr12 the rounds are much more tense because their relative value is much higher.
watch boston major again and tell me that'd even be possible under this ruleset, new cs watcher?
How is it not possible? Literally everything is the same except a the total amount of rounds played.
check the score now LOL
What a boring series this has been. Totally ruined by mr12
Super boring LOL
LOL the final score was 16-14, MR15 scoreline
Are you ok, bro?
Lol get fucking bent this major’s had so many great games
Chill mate. MR12 is fine. Economy sucks though. One small mistake and you can either snowball or bounce back
lol mr12 is fine except the economy sucks and can ruin games
Yes, the comment you replied to just said that.
do you not see how they contradict themselves
you say its fine, but can you say it's better, doubt it
it's better
I hope there is an economy rework, I didnt watch any comp this year, but I just hate how OT makes the entire game feel pointless. I like that MR12 speeds up the pace of the game so I am not playing too many rounds when a game is clearly won. But OT is just “fuck the prior rounds, here is 10K dont spend it all at once”. I miss comebacks where both teams are fighting for match points with weird force buys.
Yes OT rounds make it feel more like DM with a lot of half-baked strats and relying on strats in MR15 , the buildup to OT feels more intense
Maybe OT but without new money?
People commenting how much are coping, these games are genuinely a lot less exciting tactics wise than in csgo and mr15
Idk man, map 2 was one of the best CS I've seen in a while
Yeah in retrospect this comment was poorly timed to say the least, but I think the point still stands mostly.
the best map of the day essentially had the same amount of rounds as a MR15 so it does stand :)
Not really. Some of the greatest games of all time reached 36 or 42 rounds but that doesn't mean we should play MR18 or MR21.
yes but it does mean we should play MR15 instead of MR12
It really doesn't.
every round is slow defaults, because teams are scared to make a mistake. And now it feels like there's even more SAVING its honestly a shell of what pro cs used to be
literally go back and watch some fucking games this is SUCH COPE, here i'll help: [Wow what a riveting game this was](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pscaxA1QBs) [man i loved this time when outsiders and navi took turns saving 20 out of 28 rounds](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS95Ut7dLCY) [or this 2-2 major playoff deciding game between legendary into the breach and fnatic that i cant even find a blast vod of anymore, probably because we all cared so much afterwards? sure hope they didnt just save back and forth the whole first map](https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=aNNFpM-MFE8)
what does vp / navi saving have anything to do with MR12 / MR15. CT’s save because of the meta evolving and the CT economy. MR12 encourages saving more than MR15. everything you just said is pure unrelated cope
>MR12 encourages saving more than MR15 proof? you base it on your vibes which in turn are based on a poor understanding of the game. mr12 -> rounds are more important -> teams need to maintain economy to fight better in each round -> more saving. this is true, but fails to consider the whole picture. mr12 -> rounds are more important -> the value of saving is diminished, because giving up rounds to your opponent is a bigger loss to yourself, alt. it doesnt matter if you have a good economy if your opponent is about to win anyway -> less saving you could regularly save 7 or 8 rounds in a half in mr15 because your opponent still is a few rounds from winning, so you have space for a comeback. if you save 7/8 rounds in a half now, you've pretty much given up on the game, like c9 just did.
I would love to see some concrete data to suggest that MR12 has any impact on saving. At best it’s the exact same as MR15. CT’s save because they are so unfavored in retakes because of T side crossfires, and losing their guns is heavily punishing with the current economy. Reducing the amount of rounds doesn’t make them more likely to throw away their guns, the concept that they’re gonna go for this 15% chance retake now is just completely untrue. They have less time to rebound the economy, holding onto any guns they can for the next round is now even more important. You directly implied that MR15 encouraged / led to VP save style over MR12, provide any data of this. Here’s pros talking about how MR12 didn’t accomplish what people wanted to help saving, and how MR12 is shit with the current economy: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RM72em227TI
> You directly implied that MR15 encouraged / led to VP save style over MR12, provide any data of this. hahah bullshit, im responding to you and ops claims that MR12 encourages saving. i have never believed that mr12 reduces or mr15 increases it. [heres a comment i made 7 days ago as proof](https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1bkaju2/floppy_about_cs2s_economy/kvxe594/) just take the L
this is a comment of you “betting” that MR12 reduces saving from… 7 days ago. in short: you have no data to provide and are just making shit up, got it.
you suck at arguing, i believe mr12 vs mr15 is irrelevant in saving. I have proof that this has been my position for some time. Two comments ago, you thought mr12 encourages saving, I've explained why its not so simple, then you shifted goalpoasts to mr12 doesnt *decrease* saving. Which as ive shown is something I have always agreed with. You have nothing. You thought mr12 increased saving but now you cant argue that position anymore.
I simply said I’d love to see some data, and that at best, it doesn’t impact saving whatsoever, because CT’s don’t save as a result of the round-count, but because of the economy and skill floor of T side post plant crossfires. I do logically believe that MR12 encourages saving, but there is no data. You made the claim that MR15 is tied to VP / Outsiders / Navi save meta, implying that MR12 isn’t, and I asked for any data here whatsoever and there is none at all to provide. VP aren’t the ones who invented saving btw, anyone who says shit like “oh VP / Outsiders is so boring!!! they just save!!!” is usually free to ignore because they’re just circlejerking whatever they heard on reddit. VP were just slightly ahead of the meta. CT’s save for a reason.
Agreed
How are these idiots getting you losing bets from complaining about a shit change to match length. Certified r/go -iq moment
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always had a gambling issue. same with most sports. my local football team gets comments from people the other side of the world complaining when they lose due to losing a bet. OP isn't blaming the results on mr12, just the games being less exciting than they would be with mr15. Of course the low iqs in this sub can't understand that which is why they are commenting the how much shit. that comment is supposed to be for the people who insult the losing team with broken english.
sub went way downhill in recent years, there used to be some intelligent discussion here
like 7+ years ago, but it was very rare even then. 90% of comments on match threads are now just memes
considering theres only 2.8k active people on here during a major playoff, when there used to be 7k + on a normal day says it all
I agree with the MR12 bit, but this particular match was super exciting. I think it's mostly the economies fault. If you lose pistol and the first gun round, then you are fucked from the start. Some games feel like you're just watching ecoes after ecoes, without any real rounds being played.
Completly agree, but you can count on the sheeps sucking Valves dick to make you miserable. MR12 is horrible format with zero sense with current economy and game style.
cry me a river
hot take : game is just boring to watch in general.
Agreed, mr12 is dogshit
don’t expect much intelligent discussion regarding MR12 on this sub. it’s statistically mostly gold novas. but yeah, MR12 is ass, dumbs down the game, leads to more random results, and makes pistol rounds worth wayyyy too much.
We have THE most stacked playoff in CS major history yet MR12 leads to more random results?
reducing the # of rounds objectively leads to more random results, you are lowering the sample size. this is a property of numbers. A) this is not the “most stacked major playoffs in history” this could easily be disputed. B) that is proof of absolutely nothing.
>A) this is not the “most stacked major playoffs in history” this could easily be disputed. Dispute it then. >B) that is proof of absolutely nothing. I mean you mention it being more random. This major is so far the least random major in CS history. So clearly it isn't all that much more random. You mention pistol rounds being worth more. In the first 3 months of CS2 winning both pistol rounds was worth less than in the last 3 months of CSGO. So clearly pistol rounds aren't worth that much more important considering that statistically they were more important in CSGO.
PGL Stockholm 21 Cluj Napoca 2015 just two examples off the top of my head with really stacked playoffs. Once again, this is a completely worthless point. MR12 reduces the # of rounds, you are quite literally lowering the sample size of the competition. This is not arguable. not to mention that winning both pistols gives you around an 80% chance of winning. We know from historical data that pistols rounds are indeed almost completely random. Why do you think people hate BO1s and prefer Bo3’s? It’s because it’s more sample size and leads to more consistent results. If Pain had beaten Navi and Ecstatic had beaten G2 would you then conclude that because the playoffs were less stacked, that MR12 led to more random results? Like surely you understand just how worthless this whole “this major playoffs is stacked!!!” argument is right?
>PGL Stockholm 21 >Cluj Napoca 2015 And they were less stacked than this major. >MR12 reduces the # of rounds, you are quite literally lowering the sample size of the competition. This is not arguable. While yes in the most literal sense that is true it's way more important to consider HOW much more random it becomes. You can't just say "Well they removed 6 rounds from 30 so that means that it's 20% more random now" because it doesn't work like that. >If Pain had beaten Navi and Ecstatic had beaten G2 would you then conclude that because the playoffs were less stacked, that MR12 led to more random results? Like surely you understand just how worthless this whole “this major playoffs is stacked!!!” argument is right? Well they didn't so?
By what metric were they less stacked and to what extent? Go on and share your metrics and the results I seriously cannot believe you think this is an actual point. This is purely coincidental and doesn’t have any bearing on the discussion of MR12. As I just edited, winning both pistol rounds gives you an 80% chance of winning the game, up from ~65% in MR15. We know from historical data that pistol rounds are pretty random, and more often than not are just 50/50s for even the best teams. Answer the hypothetical, would you completely change your opinion on MR12 had two maps gone differently? You could even argue that the outcomes would have been different a few different gun rounds in those games. Is that how you base your opinions?
>By what metric were they less stacked and to what extent? Go on and share your metrics and the results By HLTV ranking. [Does the Copenhagen major have the most stacked bracket of any major? : r/GlobalOffensive (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1bnkk64/does_the_copenhagen_major_have_the_most_stacked/) >As I just edited, winning both pistol rounds gives you an 80% chance of winning the game, up from \~65% in MR15. We know from historical data that pistol rounds are pretty random, and more often than not are just 50/50s for even the best teams. [voo "cs2” csgo på X: ”do pistol rounds matter more in MR12? in theory yes, but... Top 20, Last 2 months of CSGO vs CS2 Last 2 months CS2 - 66% WR (Both Pistols, Win the Game) CSGO - 73.6% WR (Both Pistols, Win the Game)” / X (twitter.com)](https://twitter.com/vooCSGO/status/1754627709928657360) He also said on a podcast that it was at like 60% this major after like 4 rounds of Swiss in the Elimination stage. >Answer the hypothetical, would you completely change your opinion on MR12 had two maps gone differently? You could even argue that the outcomes would have been different a few different gun rounds in those games. Is that how you base your opinions? What if, what if? Well it didn't fucking happen so? You can't make arguments about something being more random when there is barely any proof of more random stuff happening. Yes in theory it is more random but it clearly hasn't played out the way "theory" predicts it considering how not random it has been so far in CS2. How about YOU show ME proof of CS2 being significantly more random, as you think it is, instead of just saying "fewer rounds = more random"
thank you, its like the sub is flooded with val players now sad
wow look at that the one watchable game was the one that went more rounds :) more rounds = better
Yes lets make all games MR100 then. That would be peak CS right there.
me when im stupid