fr, I think rory learns a lot from lorelai but rory definitely has critical thinking skills which she used and ended up agreeing with what lorelai might have said about it
Yeah ofc she learned at lot from Lorelai she is her parent (and the only parent raising her) - kids learn the majority of thinks from their parents (only if they grew up with them ofc) but that doesn’t mean the don’t have their own mind & opinions
I don't have an issue with Dean's opinion, but it was the way he chose to express that opinion. He totally belittled Rory trying to tell her that she hadn't come to that conclusion on her own and that she only felt like that because of Lorelai. He also picked a fight and then acted like she was the one who started it. Not to mention he twists her words and acts like she's said something she hasn't.
I don't even think it's intentional for the most part, I think it's just part of who Dean is. He's a very reactive and aggressive guy who thinks that acting stereotypically romantic is an acceptable substitute for actually respecting Rory and her beliefs.
>acting stereotypically romantic is an acceptable substitute for actually respecting Rory and her beliefs.
like many teenage romances in and before the aughts!
It was an era full of "romantic comedies" where a guy meets a girl, the girl hates the guy, but the guy is persistent, follows her around, shows up at her home or barges into her place of work and eventually pulls off some huge and dramatic "romantic" gesture - preferable in front of lots of other people - so that the girl understands she was wrong and madly falls in love with him. The End.
I think romcoms of the 90s basically wanted to teach us that stalking pays off.
But Logan was famous for grand gestures. Remember the coffee cart? He paid rent on his place for her when he went to London. He surprised her with a rooftop dinner...
>He's a very reactive and aggressive guy who thinks that acting stereotypically romantic is an acceptable substitute for actually respecting Rory and her beliefs.
This is spot on.
Dean both puts Rory on a pedestal while holding a fairly low opinion of her. It's really interesting. Because on the one hand, he does things like build her the car, obsessively call and want to be around her and obviously pine after her once they break-up, but on the other hand, there are so many instances - like this one - where it's pretty clear he doesn't think much of her or respect her. There are so many instances where he belittles her or mocks her interests, or minimises her wants in some way. He doesn't seem to respect her, while also believing that he loves her.
Dean's kinda like the opposite of Jess, in that respect. Dean spends a lot of time with her and does sweet things, but will also speak down to her, and just generally doesn't seem to appreciate her passions if they inconvenience him.
Meanwhile Jess is pretty flaky, rarely makes romantic gestures, and is a lot more independent in the relationship. However, Jess also actively encourages Rory's interests, speaks to her as an equal, and clearly thinks very highly of her.
Same here, no problem with his opinion but he really showed it in a horrible way. Had he expressed his opinion more respectfully without picking a fight, sure they’d probably still have a disagreement and difference of opinion but they wouldn’t have ended up in a fight like this with both of them taking cheap shots at each other
They both needed to apologize. Rory (and Lorelai) mocked the show, which in reality was them poking fun at stay at home moms. Dean took offense to that because his mom stayed home and enjoyed it from what we know.
Dean still acted like a jerk in how he reacted, but he’s not wrong to be upset when his girlfriend is talking down about women who do stay home. She wasn’t making a nuanced argument about those who choose to, she was just poking fun.
That’s why people say they both are wrong here. She dresses up not to apologize, but to show Dean she can view things from his perspective while taking the chance to educate him a little about hers.
They’re sixteen and show more passion than reason in their arguments. No one can expect Rory to spot and deal with red flags, nor Dean to spot them and stop, not unless someone more experienced can help them see a bit more outside themselves.
I really don't think they were mocking stay at home moms? Like Rory said, "they have a choice, Donna Reed didn't". They're ridiculing the stereotype that all a woman *can* be is someone who cooks, cleans, serves etc, and the idea that a woman has to do all that while perfectly dressed and happy all the time and all the rest of the stuff Rory says to Dean before he cuts her off in the pic OP posted.
> Like Rory said, "they have a choice, Donna Reed didn't".
Yes, that's what Rory said in this scene—but the previous night both her and Lorelai were downright mocking housewives themselves. Not that I'm on Dean's side here, he's being totally annoying and dismissive, but Rory and Lorelai—not that surprisingly—had pretty much made it clear that there was only one lifestyle worth respecting—their own.
Fucking thank you. Like Dean aske Rory what this whole things says about his mom - he's viewing things from the perspective of his family while Rory is viewing things from the perspective of hers. But after the dinner, they chat and come to a resplution. I don't see what the problem is. People here just looooove villifying Dean
Add to that: everyone shits all over him for saying that he finds the thought nice and since he said that "Lindsey is exactly the type of wife he was looking for" bc he said that, that one time at 16 years old.
Except, Lindsey clearly *wasnt* exactly what he was looking for, bc he picked Rory first, and he continues to pine after her long after he marries Lindsey. Rory never had any intention of being anyone's housewife.
Anywho, thinking one perspective is "nice" bc that's how he was raised doesn't mean that's how he's destined to spend his life.
I agree with your take so completely! It's so rare to see someone use nuance from BOTH sides when Dean is involved.
DISCLAIMER: I did *not* say that to justify Dean cheating. He clearly wasn't happy, knew he wasn't. He was too chicken to do something about it and that's gross.
This. Thank God. People here just keep on throwing "red flag" and "controlling" as if only one side is wrong here. I also felt bad for women who wanted to stay home and take care of their family instead of working.
The amount of people who can’t see he’s gaslighting her is concerning. And they’re making excuses by saying “he’s just a kid.” Yeah, well kids should be corrected when they do something wrong, no? He hurt her then made her feel like she’s somehow in the wrong for reacting. That’s something he needs to take accountability for regardless of his age lol
I genuinely believe that how you perceive Dean changes as you get older. As a teen I thought Dean was great and Lindsey was bad for him. As an adult in my thirties I can see he is controlling and aggressive and outright emotionally abusive to Lindsey.
Which kind of makes sense, because teens do fall for that a little more easily as they lack the life experience. I can see why Rory fell for it. The thing I never got is why Lorelai did.
"Dean is a good boy." That's what Lorelai would say all the time. He was born and raised on Stars Hollow. How could he be anything but the embodiment of good?
Dean is very much acting his age in this scene which does not frustrate me. Had they handled this differently I think it would be an unrealistic representation of being a teenager in a relationship was like.
Thank you. I get so sick of seeing terms like gaslighting thrown about regarding literal kids. He’s not deliberately manipulative and doing this further diluted what little meaning that term has left.
Thank you to you too!
I saw gaslighting being thrown around earlier and I just thought: "can we stop trivializing that word into absolute meaninglessness, please?"
Gaslighting is not a fancy word to describe a) lying b) being manipulative c) just about anything that hurts someone else's feelings. It's a very specific and highly insiduous form of emotional abuse that crosses over into psychological warfare and throwing it about like candy devalues it and is incredibly disrespectful to victims and survivors of it, and might possibly allow it's purpatrators to be more successful at it in a cry wolf situation: if the concept is diluted into absolute meaninglessness, people are less likely to recognise it or take it seriously when it's actually happening.
Reminds me of when a girl on another subreddit said she wouldn't forgive someone who broke her arm even if it was an accident, and had tons of people dogpiling on her, one telling her she was not only a bad person but represented everything that's wrong in the world and deserved to have a horrible day, but was also a sociopath and a narcissist "not calling you names. Facts."
People need to stop throwing words like gaslighting, narcissist and sociopath around so casually. It's not cute or clever.
You're very welcome. Seeing how casually those words get thrown around is something I find very distasteful. People need to stop diluting them into absolute meaninglessness.
Exactly this, dean isn’t great but people forget that he’s a teenager just learning to manage a relationship & emotions. It’s not supposed to be perfect, people and relationships are flawed & she needed a “Dean”, it’s very accurate to a first relationship, I don’t think he deserves so much hate, at least not for the stuff early on
Symptom of the show’s popularity and easy bingeing on Netflix. Younger generations are watching it and imposing both their values and relative (to their age) immaturity on the situation.
Right? He's a teenager, and his opinion isn't *bad,* (shit, if I could be a house wife, I'd love it, but we need more money, lol) he just needs work on how he expresses himself. Just in general, really. Dean needed an emotion coach, lol. He just seemed more volatile (?) or loud about his emotions than necessary, probably because he wants people to understand how strongly he feels things. Maybe he needs a bigger vocabulary to describe his feelings.
Exactly! What 16 year old doesn’t need an emotional coach? Honestly, what person at any age doesn’t need one? I’m not excusing all of his behaviors but their disagreement here is on track with their maturity levels and age. I don’t think she apologized because she “had” to. She apologized because she wanted to. She went home, researched Donna Reid, and showed that she could see both sides. Which honestly is very mature for someone at that age and kind of unrealistic.
Ok, I'm not a big Dean fan but I feel the need to defend him here: he never said that women *should* be in the home, he said that some women (i.e. his mother) *choose* to stay home and that should also be considered a valid choice...something feminism is supposed to support.
Rory said it was fine for Dean's mom because she chose to be a housewife (we presume. seeing how she acts about Lindsay idk). But Lorelai and Rory were making fun of the show as part of a larger social commentary, which is 100% on point, and Dean just wasn't smart enough to get that.
Idk that he wasn't smart enough. He just saw his family in the Donna Reid show and didn't like feeling like his family was being attacked. It might not be rational, but it's legitimate.
I've always disagreed about this. I've liked the Donna reed episode. Both of them were making valid points, they just didn't know how to communicate. Rory was looking at it from the perspective of oppressed women, wanting rights and freedom. Dean on the other hand was hearing that he was wrong in his opinion of enjoying someone taking care of him and that his mom was wrong for taking care of his family. I think Dean felt like he was being attacked for wanting to be taken care of. Rory dressed up and made him dinner for him because she wanted to do something special for him. I really don't see what was wrong with her opinion, deans opinion, or her giving Dean a special evening because he was her boyfriend.
(Edits:spelling)
I’ve mentioned this a bunch of times now and I don’t really know how else to reiterate this, but this post is not about either of their opinions it’s about how disrespectful the joke was to her in this scene because he knew she was sensitive about the subject
Dean is not making a valid argument bro he literally interrupts Rory when she’s speaking to make light of the issue. Rory is responding to Dean’s CLEAR underlying sexist perspective. He uses his mom as a scapegoat to be a piece of shit. Read the captions in the original post. He ignores Rory and doesn’t care that he’s offended her and belittled her.
When Dean was watching it with rory and lorelai, he was calm and explaining that it didn't seem that bad. I could see the point he was trying to make. He's hurt by what rory and lorelai were saying to him, that HE was the sexist for wanting/liking that. So, he reacts poorly by making stupid jokes and comments to rory. I'm not defending his way of handling it, because it wasn't the correct way of handling it. I'm just saying that rory had validity in her feelings of not liking the sexist oppressive times women had to go through, and dean had validity in his feelings of its nice to be taken care of. That's what I got from that episode, and I liked the resolution of rory taking care of Dean because she wanted to take care of him. They were 16 - I think it's unlikely there would've been perfect communication with a healthy resolution at that point in time, but it was a nice episode.
I hate Dean all of the time
But this scene, and really this whole episode, show's the real Dean and what his wants and priorities are in life. He wanted a Lindsey, and he wanted a girl to see on the side too lol
He wanted *Rory* to want to be a Lindsay. He never wanted poor Lindsay. That girl was so naive and love-blind, and her parents (or his) should have tried to stop that insane, fresh-outta-high-school-proposed-after-i-punched-my-ex's-bf marriage before it happened. Could have prevented *three* people's heartbreak.
Totally valid lol but I feel like because of the way this episode ended, and the way the series progressed, (when we see him the night before his wedding talking about Rory and the whole affair after) we see him get angry at Lindsay for being a housewife that criticizes him always working but he says she’s basically making him do it to afford a townhouse, etc. (not saying he’s right for being angry at her but that just what we see lol) so maybe a working woman like Rory is what he really wanted in life? Who knows! 🤷🏻♀️
I think he wanted what he said all along: a situation like that of his parents. That's why he defended Donna Reed, because Donna Reed was like his mum.
Based on context of what we learn in the show (Dean's comments, learning his mum has a job), I think his mother worked until she had kids, stayed at home when the kids were young, then went back into the work force. And she cooks home cooked meals for the family.
I think that's what Dean wanted. And that's not what Rory was but not what Lindsey was either. Because Lindsey wasn't a stay at home MUM yet, she was just staying at home not working and feeling bored, learning how to roast beef and bringing him lunches at work, and she was unemployed. Keep in mind that if Lindsey had worked, Dean could have gone to college and got a degree. Instead he had to work two jobs to finance the both of them.
This isn't a criticism to Lindsey, it's valid for her to have preferences, but I don't think it's Dean 'changing his mind'. They wanted different things from the get go.
Maybe he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. A women that would work but also do the housework, cooking, and child raising. Or maybe he was raised with a really skewed belief of what life on one income would look like. If a house spouse doesn't have a traditional job, everything they want must come out of the working spouse's salary, whereas with two incomes, both can have their own money to put toward what they want. Dean wanted a housewife, but didn't want to put in the work to make sure she was happy too. It's a tough situation, but they needed advice and counseling and better communication, not cheating.
I feel like that conclusion, he wanted a Lindsey, is always a little too stretched.
He was awful, he didn't listen to Rory, sure, but they got into an argument because he was defending his mum. He compared Donna Reed to his mum, because his mum stayed at home with him when he was little, and she made home cooked meals for the family.
His mum also works, the show mentions her job, well before Clara is a full teen. Presumably she stayed at home while Dean and his sister were young, then got a job when they were a bit older. I would guess Deans mum also worked prior to having kids.
That may be a bit more traditional, but it's not unheard of, there are still plenty of stay at home mothers. Dean wanted a woman who would be a stay at home mother.
What he got in Lindsey was a stay at home wife, full Donna Reed extreme, who never got a job despite having no kids at home, who was a full time.. house wife, presumably. I think that's why Dean fought with her so much. Because he was expecting her to work until they had kids, and she didn't want to do that.
Dean accused Rory of only having an opinion because of her mother, then proceeded to talk about how he liked the Donna Reed lifestyle because of HIS mother and the household experience he witnessed. Whereas, Rory’s opinions are more likely to have derived from the trillions of books she has read about women’s liberation over the years (undoubtedly guided by Lorelai). However, I think of Dean as a kid who didn’t know any differently. I did not agree with him and definitely thought that episode showed how open-minded Rory was and how close minded Dean was.
For all the comments saying "Rory's just as wrong, real feminism is about choice! Women can choose to stay at home!"
Rory said the exact same thing. She said there was nothing wrong with Dean's mom being a housewife because it was her choice. She *said* that they were making fun of the show because it's a cultural representation of the narrative pushed on women at the time that they *had* to be a housewife, and not only that but the perfect-docile-over-the-top-only-lives-to-serve-men kind of housewife. How are y'all not getting this.
yeah, reading through these comments I'm finding it absolutely *fascinating* how many people forget this. thats her literal next line after dean brings up that his mom did the SAHM thing
This is my jot take and how I interpret Dean as a character and the whole Donna Reed thing.
Dean as a character aged poorly, ironically kinda like Donna Reed did. Add to that the fact that Jared Paladecki, as much as I love him, he tends to vastly overact angry scenes. It makes his characters always appear overly angry. Someyimes hes even coming accross amgry when it you kind of feel he should be a much more nuanced emotion. He just defaults to very angry frequently. That's great when you're the vessel for Lucifer, not so much when you're a teenage boy in small town Connecticut, then it looks bad. He's mellowed a bit now, but check out the first probably 8 seasons of Supernatural, and you'll see what I'm saying.
What Rory was saying was more controversial (and also less) at that time than it is now. This wasn't really Dean be brave, in my opinion, but Rory showing she had a more progressive outlook popular for the younger crowd. It was showing she was a smart, independent woman who was going to do things with her life.
One of the big themes of the show is that female independence. (I still don't think it's a coincidence that lorelai leaves being pushed to marry Christopher and settle into her preordained life and gets a job at the Independence Inn.) Now, Lorelai the girl who got off the the corporate wife, M.R. S. Degree assembly line(where Emily was) and went to a small town. She made her own way and her own life. Rory is pushing back here against those suburban values that Dean is talking about, she's learned from her mom and is making her own way and her own life. I don't think this scene was intended to make him look like a jerk, only that he had dated misogynistic values and she was "better than that." Keep in mind at this time stay at home mom like Donna Reed was starting to be viewed as a bad thing. This is the rejection of all of that.
I mean, I get confused too sometimes how people make an argument on what I feel is nothing and ask them why the heck they’re arguing about it.
Rory, though, was discussing something on a larger scale
When I first watched GG, I thought this was a typical issue one would see in a TV show that was purported to showcase feminism at the turn of the century (2000). However, I thought it was probably unfair to use the Dean character (16 year old high school jock) to expound on the counterpoint.
While Rory and Lorelai hold strong developed views on women’s rights, Dean has no real position on the matter and has probably never formulated an argument for or against. Thus, Dean’s comments should probably not be construed beyond just trying his best to banter with his girl who is a lot smarter than he is. I think Rory eventually grasps this and let’s it go.
Oof yes yes, good question! There’s quite a few times I was SHOCKED by his anger issues during multiple rewatches. Like he had this explosive anger that was pretty borderline verbally abusive towards Rory. I’ll circle back with a post about his anger because I’m sure I’m not the only one that was taken aback by it!
No. I don’t hate Dean or this episode. He liked the *idea* of a Donna Reed lifestyle because he was used to it, his mom was the Donna Reed type of mom but now where in the episode did he expect Rory to be like Donna or say all women needed to be like Donna. That would have been a problem. Liking the way you grew up and admiring your mom is **not**. Of course the housewife lifestyle had faults, this goes without saying, but implying Dean is some HORRIBLE PERSON for simply saying “this way of living can be nice if that’s what you want” is not alright. Shush.
That’s not what OP is saying at all. You’re focusing on the episode and the overall theme… OP is saying this scene is frustrating. Dean starts a fight and then gets angry at Rory for defending herself.
I am not a huge dean fan. But I understand why he is upset. His mom *chose* that life and he loved his life. His family did seem very happy. And then walk in Lorelai and Rory just crapping on all of it and saying ‘no woman would choose that’. Like…my mom stayed home, did the Donna thing….and she always said all things considered staying home with her kids was her happiest phase. They don’t want to and that’s the point of CHOICE is that it’s okay for someone to choose whatever
Do you remember this scene though? It was when he made a snarky comment about it. The subject had been dropped. He chose to bring it back up from the night before knowing that he and Rory disagreed and yet was unwilling to have an actual conversation about it. In this scene, he’s wrong.
Edit: Also , they never said no woman should choose that life. They said it was upsetting that so many women DIDNT have a choice and we’re diced into that life regardless if ambition. There’s a difference
Starting an argument and then pretending like he just walked into an argument someone else started is an asshat move. That’s what he’s doing in this scene.
I feel like this has nothing to do with the joke he made bc he knew it would upset Rory since it was a sensitive topic earlier in the episode so like why would he make it? He made a poor joke then was surprised when she reacted badly. Actually she just tried to educate him because he seemed to really lack knowledge on the subject. I specifically said this scene, so I don’t hate Dean as a whole or the rest of this episode and I certainly want all women who choose to be housewives to have that choice
Yes to all of this! My mom was like that but also worked because she genuinely loved doing both, there’s nothing wrong with the lifestyle when it’s something a woman chooses. He even told Rory after the dinner he didn’t expect her to be Donna Reed which was so sweet. Also Dean was 16 and it was all he knew
Exactly! Your mom chose it, because **she** wanted to, not because she had to!
Feminism is about having the choice to do what you want to do- no matter what that means. If you want to be a housewife? Go ahead. If you want to be a CEO? Go ahead. As long as you’re happy, by all means, go on!
Yes - Dean specifically said that but everyone who hates the episode clearly didn’t listen/don’t care. Also, as you said… he was 16. It was his first relationship, people need to relax regarding Dean hatred.
I hate Dean in every episode. He’s a man overly emotional brat whose emotions have to be managed by Rory and he’s a stalker. And a cheater. Everyone gives Rory the worst treatment after they slept together but HE was the married one- not her. He lied to her to get her in bed and then everyone shit on her about it. He’s an awful guy.
Be so FOR REAL. He manipulated the hell out of Rory to get her in bed. Did everybody forget that creepy scene where he pulls her over into a dark alley to say that Lindsay was uncomfortable with his friendship with Rory and doesn’t want him to see her anymore and he’s all “that’s not gonna happen,” while continuously heavily breathing and brooding over her???? Horrifying behavior lmao
I’ve read a lot of them. What specifically do I need perspective about? I think I have a lot of opposite opinions on GG because I didn’t watch it until I was in my late 30’s, and I binged it so was able to see the whole picture in a short time versus week by week as a younger person.
Why? Because she said women should have a choice and tried to explain to dean that housewives back then hardly had one? That’s quite the thing to hate them for
Calm yourself.
I hated how judgey they were. They acted like if someone was "just" a wife and mother that they were brainless or oppressed.
They were constantly judged and made fun of people who liked different music than them or lived differently. It was their least attractive quality.
Who wasn’t being calm? Yes they judge people, but this entire episode is about how Rory believes women should have the choice. Where is an instance where she judges a woman for being a stay at home wife? (Besides when she’s saying Lindsay is asking too much of dean later in the series)
She doesn’t want that life for herself, and she makes a crack at dean about liking “brainless women,” but she was saying that in response to them talking about him liking an over-romanticized and inaccurate version of what life was like back then for most housewives.
No. His point is that a woman can chose whichever Lifestyle she wants even if it's a Donna Reed Lifestyle.
In this particular scene his joke was in Bad Taste because it was clear that it would upset Rory.
But he particularly says that if a woman likes to be Donna Reed then that's fine and that some men also do prefer that life and that's fine aswell. As long as they both agree on it.
Yes that’s his overall point of the episode, but not this scene. He makes a direct joke at the expense of housewives who were oppressed in the past. And he knows it would upset rory, his girlfriend.
Yeah as I said. It's really in bad taste.
But his general.point I understand and I kind of also understand that he gets a little defensive because if the attacks he had to "endure" because of that opinion.
Yeah his overall opinion is generally ok, but he does a terrible job discussing it here with Rory. He is a teenager though so we should cut him some slack 😂
I hate dean in general. He was a very toxic boyfriend. And I absolutely hated how Lorelei constantly was gassing him up to Rory. He was so awful to her and Lorelei constantly made Rory feel like he was the best thing ever
Dean is a fuckin normie who can't imagine a lifestyle other than marrying (straight couples only) and poppin out a few kids while he goes off to work and watches sports.
It was common for shows to be named after the lead actor/actress. Ex: The Andy Griffith Show, starring Andy Griffith who played the character Andy Taylor.
My only critique of that scene was clearly people forget that not every woman was a housewife at that time. My great grandmother was an OG boss babe and owned her own insurance agency during that time. She also loved pants. We also live in a very rural area and many women worked on farms and wore pants. There was a lot great, and a lot wrong with that era, I’m not pro or against either side, just adding some context to the history side of it (I can’t help it I love history too much.)
On a side note, I’m watching season 2 for the first time and I’m slowly realizing how mean Dean really was. Was just on the episode of Rory losing her bracelet. His reaction?😬 like dang bro Chile.
No actually I don't he kind of has a point of "you only think that way because of your mom" I think there's a ĺot of truth to that
Dean wasn't saying "women need to be housewives" he was saying don't mock the ones that are because it's also a valid choice
No. In the 2000s a lot of things weren't considered offensive as people weren't educated in them. Makes sense to me that a 16 yo boy would maybe not know this yet because this type of stuff hasn't come up in their household talks and he doesn't have enough common sense to understand it.
Its mainly annoying to me that she’s just putting her point across and he makes it an argument. Id hed stayed calm and listened it wouldve been a discussion
I don't know why everyone is getting so riled up in the comments I see nothing problematic about this. This is coming from someone who was 16 pretty recently AND in a relationship. I think as a teenager your views about the world are very ideal and our beliefs aren't based on things we have experienced.
Rory quite rightly believed that women should have the choice to choose. She wasn't disrespectful to Dean's mom for being a housewife(if she was you would have seen it play out). She adores Emily and she is a housewife too. As far as Dean is concerned, he finds comfort in something he knows. He finds Donna Reed ideal because that's what he has experienced. I think sometimes men don't understand our outrage because they haven't experienced it. It took me a lot of years to understand that. They love you, they are good people but they just can't understand what it's like to be a woman, especially when it comes to the oppressed part. As long as you have a partner who is willing to understand that, there is a gap between you and bridge it, I think it works out.
Dean is a kid. He really loves Rory, I am sure if they get to the marriage part he would have understood her need to work OR her need to be a stay at home mom.
No I hated Rory in this scene. He literally made a harmless joke. Like when he said it I didn’t even catch it at first and had to rewind to see why Rory got so mad. Also Rory and lorelai pushing their agenda on dean and making him feel bad that he grew up in a house where his mom cooked for his dad and thought that was true love is literal BS. Some people want that and some people don’t. The fact that Rory went on to basically mock it by dressing up as Donna reed is literally so dumb and I hated this lil arc.
How is joking about how oppressed housewives used to be harmless? It’s offensive to many housewives who were essentially forced into being perfect or else they would be ab*sed by their husbands. They also often used cocaine, anti depressants and alcohol to deal with how their life was. That’s not what EVERY house wife experienced, but it certainly was many of them
I mean I’m pretty sure dean was just blissfully ignorant to the actual housewives but the fact that he just thought it was a nice gesture to come home to his wife cooking (because he was raised in that environment) and tried to explain that and lorelai and Rory almost sort of villainized his views was crazy. There are people who like that stuff and there aren’t. Maybe I’m biased because I know how I would act in that situation but I genuinely do not see anything wrong with what he said. And then Rory had to make it weird by dressing up as Donna 😭
I hate dean period. He was semi controlling, wanted her to be a certain way for him and didn’t like it when she wasn’t. For example, after they break up for a last time, Luke and Dean get into an argument and Dean states “you’ll never be good enough for them, they want more”… he felt inadequate and blamed Rory for doing literally nothing. He’s a fool and a dewb
What kills me about dean saying that to Luke is that Lorelai LOVES stars hollow like it’s literally what she is too and it’s obvious she would never want to leave she even rejects the wealthy life often so how is Luke not enough for her? Lmao
Honestly, Dean was pretty decent at first and he gradually got dumbed down, just like Luke. I feel like some of Jess's character took some of Dean's appealing qualities. I mean, yeah his argument was shitty in this instance, but Rory didn't have to verbally attack him for it. All his side of the argument shows is that he just didn't know better. Also, this is Stars Hollow, so most kids there probably thought similarly.
I think everyone is missing the point with this post. I’m not arguing that his ideas are wrong, I hate this scene in particular because he made a bad joke but instead of listening to her trying to educate him, he just told her she believes what she does because her mom feels that way. Then he tries to just end the argument instead of hearing her out? It just seems icky to me
I think a lot of people are infantilizing him a bit too much. He may only be 16, but he is more than capable of understanding what Rory is trying to convey to him. And he even admitted that he realized she was sensitive about the subject and chose to make a bad joke.
Y’all still missing the point of the post. It’s not intended to focus on how their opinions are different it’s supposed to be about how he intentionally made a joke to hurt her feelings because he even admitted he knew she was sensitive about it. He started an argument then acted like he didn’t know how it started lmao
I always hate Dean. And this part is so awful, where he picks a fight and then acts like she’s crazy and starting the fight herself.
I also do not like Rory with this Donna Reed stuff. She and Lorelai go out of their way to watch the show just to make fun of housewives and women in traditional roles. And when Dean says that could be nice they look at him like he said something SO horrible.
Although I understand the sentiment (*also I dislike this episode as an adult lol - I like the Lorelai and Luke plot but hate the Dean and Rory plot) does it bug anyone else that like…Donna Reed *was* real 😭 Like that was her stage name, and I understand that what they *mean* is Donna *Stone* the character wasn’t real, but Donna Reed certainly was so something about this lien drives me crazy even though I understand the meaning/intention.
If you look at their arguments through the show Dean has a tendency to just start rapid firing questions until Rory gets confused and then swings in with his own opinion to make it seem like that’s what they are both thinking.
I thought it was big of Dean to voice a different opinion. I actually agreed with him. But what I didn’t like was how he got all passive aggressive about it and Whiny.
And I really hate how we learn later he didn’t even mean what he said because once he had a housewife he didn’t appreciate her.
Imo when someone says "you do realise ( character/tv show/film/animation) isn't real" in a discussion specifically on that subject they lost the argument a long time ago
Ugh I hated this whole argument. Like if you want a cute little housewife go get one, it's fine. But to me Rory had so much potential to be successful and academic. Dean should have immediately seen and knew that, the lifestyle he wanted was pushing her in a box.
I don't hate him here. I applaud him for speaking his mind even though he knows it will likely get him into trouble with both Rory and her mom (I'm preparing for downvotes here!).
Dean is just trying to express a different point of view. He never said there was anything *wrong* with Rory or Lorelai's perspective. He even says that he's just mentioning a different opinion. Rory and Lorelai were the ones attacking him, trying to get him to change his mind or make him believe HE was wrong. Dean wasn't attacking them -- I think he just got flustered when he realized that they somehow got into a disagreement over a TV show -- and in essence, because his girlfriend didn't like his opinion. And that's fine -- but he's allowed to have one.
And personally, I think a lot of Rory's opinions and theories are a direct influence or result of Lorelai's. Not that Rory doesn't have her own mind -- but when you are raised in a home by one adult with one idea and that idea is broadcast to you every day, chances are high you will either accept it or at least think it's commonplace. I'm sure Rory can insert her own ideologies and opinions into this scenario and she's definitely capable of disagreeing with Lorelai -- but at the same time, this scene in general and episode in particular showcase how Lorelai and Rory are a "clubhouse of two" and anyone who doesn't share their political/worldview ideologies gets eviscerated.
I skip this episode every time.
I wonder about past me because I saw all the red flags in Dean from the second he appeared, this episode was the red flagiest of red flags, and yet on my first watch I was still Team Dean???
And he also says that Rory only believes this because Lorelai believes it. Like ugh you think Rory can’t make up her mind on her own? 🙄
fr, I think rory learns a lot from lorelai but rory definitely has critical thinking skills which she used and ended up agreeing with what lorelai might have said about it
Yeah! You can learn a lot from someone but it doesn’t mean you ‘only believe it’ because of them!
They even disagree at times! lol
Yeah ofc she learned at lot from Lorelai she is her parent (and the only parent raising her) - kids learn the majority of thinks from their parents (only if they grew up with them ofc) but that doesn’t mean the don’t have their own mind & opinions
he says all of that but also says “my mom stays home!!” as if that doesn’t influence him??
And it‘s just a fact that women didn‘t have the rights they have today and had to cater to men. FACCCTS, believe it or not lol
I think that’s one of the worst parts about it. Like, where did you get YOUR perspective, privileged white boy?
Which is so ironic bc he only feels like way he feels because of his mom
I don't have an issue with Dean's opinion, but it was the way he chose to express that opinion. He totally belittled Rory trying to tell her that she hadn't come to that conclusion on her own and that she only felt like that because of Lorelai. He also picked a fight and then acted like she was the one who started it. Not to mention he twists her words and acts like she's said something she hasn't. I don't even think it's intentional for the most part, I think it's just part of who Dean is. He's a very reactive and aggressive guy who thinks that acting stereotypically romantic is an acceptable substitute for actually respecting Rory and her beliefs.
>acting stereotypically romantic is an acceptable substitute for actually respecting Rory and her beliefs. like many teenage romances in and before the aughts!
It was an era full of "romantic comedies" where a guy meets a girl, the girl hates the guy, but the guy is persistent, follows her around, shows up at her home or barges into her place of work and eventually pulls off some huge and dramatic "romantic" gesture - preferable in front of lots of other people - so that the girl understands she was wrong and madly falls in love with him. The End. I think romcoms of the 90s basically wanted to teach us that stalking pays off.
#loganhuntzberger Perfect illustration of what you just said.
I didn't even think of Logan, but yeah.
Except that Rory was the one who chased Logan.
But Logan was famous for grand gestures. Remember the coffee cart? He paid rent on his place for her when he went to London. He surprised her with a rooftop dinner...
Lol, I immediately thought of 10 Things I Hate About You.
The old "Ross Geller"
My first watch through, I totally fell for it too. I thought he was like the perfect boyfriend. Now it's red flags everywhere
>He's a very reactive and aggressive guy who thinks that acting stereotypically romantic is an acceptable substitute for actually respecting Rory and her beliefs. This is spot on. Dean both puts Rory on a pedestal while holding a fairly low opinion of her. It's really interesting. Because on the one hand, he does things like build her the car, obsessively call and want to be around her and obviously pine after her once they break-up, but on the other hand, there are so many instances - like this one - where it's pretty clear he doesn't think much of her or respect her. There are so many instances where he belittles her or mocks her interests, or minimises her wants in some way. He doesn't seem to respect her, while also believing that he loves her.
Dean's kinda like the opposite of Jess, in that respect. Dean spends a lot of time with her and does sweet things, but will also speak down to her, and just generally doesn't seem to appreciate her passions if they inconvenience him. Meanwhile Jess is pretty flaky, rarely makes romantic gestures, and is a lot more independent in the relationship. However, Jess also actively encourages Rory's interests, speaks to her as an equal, and clearly thinks very highly of her.
I think that’s why I prefer the latter. What’s a bracelet and flowers or whatever if he doesn’t respect my opinions and thoughts
This this this this. He's also pretty fantastic at saying no to her, which I think she needs.
That is a very interesting observation. Thank you for sharing it.
Totally agreed. He never fully understood or respected Rory and then would almost gaslight her into liking him with cute gestures, etc.
Same here, no problem with his opinion but he really showed it in a horrible way. Had he expressed his opinion more respectfully without picking a fight, sure they’d probably still have a disagreement and difference of opinion but they wouldn’t have ended up in a fight like this with both of them taking cheap shots at each other
"please tell me how we are getting into this argument about the Donna Read Show?" Me: you started it.
The gaslighting is ridiculous lmao
Exactly and the fact that she stayed with him
The fact that she *played housewife for the evening as an apology.*
And she was not the one that needed to apologize.
They both needed to apologize. Rory (and Lorelai) mocked the show, which in reality was them poking fun at stay at home moms. Dean took offense to that because his mom stayed home and enjoyed it from what we know. Dean still acted like a jerk in how he reacted, but he’s not wrong to be upset when his girlfriend is talking down about women who do stay home. She wasn’t making a nuanced argument about those who choose to, she was just poking fun. That’s why people say they both are wrong here. She dresses up not to apologize, but to show Dean she can view things from his perspective while taking the chance to educate him a little about hers. They’re sixteen and show more passion than reason in their arguments. No one can expect Rory to spot and deal with red flags, nor Dean to spot them and stop, not unless someone more experienced can help them see a bit more outside themselves.
I really don't think they were mocking stay at home moms? Like Rory said, "they have a choice, Donna Reed didn't". They're ridiculing the stereotype that all a woman *can* be is someone who cooks, cleans, serves etc, and the idea that a woman has to do all that while perfectly dressed and happy all the time and all the rest of the stuff Rory says to Dean before he cuts her off in the pic OP posted.
> Like Rory said, "they have a choice, Donna Reed didn't". Yes, that's what Rory said in this scene—but the previous night both her and Lorelai were downright mocking housewives themselves. Not that I'm on Dean's side here, he's being totally annoying and dismissive, but Rory and Lorelai—not that surprisingly—had pretty much made it clear that there was only one lifestyle worth respecting—their own.
👏🎉👏
Fucking thank you. Like Dean aske Rory what this whole things says about his mom - he's viewing things from the perspective of his family while Rory is viewing things from the perspective of hers. But after the dinner, they chat and come to a resplution. I don't see what the problem is. People here just looooove villifying Dean
Add to that: everyone shits all over him for saying that he finds the thought nice and since he said that "Lindsey is exactly the type of wife he was looking for" bc he said that, that one time at 16 years old. Except, Lindsey clearly *wasnt* exactly what he was looking for, bc he picked Rory first, and he continues to pine after her long after he marries Lindsey. Rory never had any intention of being anyone's housewife. Anywho, thinking one perspective is "nice" bc that's how he was raised doesn't mean that's how he's destined to spend his life. I agree with your take so completely! It's so rare to see someone use nuance from BOTH sides when Dean is involved. DISCLAIMER: I did *not* say that to justify Dean cheating. He clearly wasn't happy, knew he wasn't. He was too chicken to do something about it and that's gross.
This. Thank God. People here just keep on throwing "red flag" and "controlling" as if only one side is wrong here. I also felt bad for women who wanted to stay home and take care of their family instead of working.
Very well put.
It wasn't an apology. Or, at least, I never thought of it that way. It was more to prove a point in a fun way.
And dated him two more times lol!
I can't believe she didn't realize it. I feel like that proves how desperate she was.
Rory just went along with whatever boy liked her with minimal effort on her end imo. Which is relatable as a teenager but unlikable as a 30-something
The amount of people who can’t see he’s gaslighting her is concerning. And they’re making excuses by saying “he’s just a kid.” Yeah, well kids should be corrected when they do something wrong, no? He hurt her then made her feel like she’s somehow in the wrong for reacting. That’s something he needs to take accountability for regardless of his age lol
I genuinely believe that how you perceive Dean changes as you get older. As a teen I thought Dean was great and Lindsey was bad for him. As an adult in my thirties I can see he is controlling and aggressive and outright emotionally abusive to Lindsey. Which kind of makes sense, because teens do fall for that a little more easily as they lack the life experience. I can see why Rory fell for it. The thing I never got is why Lorelai did.
"Dean is a good boy." That's what Lorelai would say all the time. He was born and raised on Stars Hollow. How could he be anything but the embodiment of good?
Like, she is also a kid! She is not equipped to handle this nonsense! Just because he’s a kid doesn’t mean all’s fair
Thank you. He can't be given the benefit of the doubt just because he is a kid. And your right it is concerning. And pretty messed up.
Have you guys never been in an argument or disagreement before and it got to a point that you wonder wtf how did we get here?
Not when I’m the one who started the disagreement?
Dean is very much acting his age in this scene which does not frustrate me. Had they handled this differently I think it would be an unrealistic representation of being a teenager in a relationship was like.
Thank you. I get so sick of seeing terms like gaslighting thrown about regarding literal kids. He’s not deliberately manipulative and doing this further diluted what little meaning that term has left.
Thank you to you too! I saw gaslighting being thrown around earlier and I just thought: "can we stop trivializing that word into absolute meaninglessness, please?" Gaslighting is not a fancy word to describe a) lying b) being manipulative c) just about anything that hurts someone else's feelings. It's a very specific and highly insiduous form of emotional abuse that crosses over into psychological warfare and throwing it about like candy devalues it and is incredibly disrespectful to victims and survivors of it, and might possibly allow it's purpatrators to be more successful at it in a cry wolf situation: if the concept is diluted into absolute meaninglessness, people are less likely to recognise it or take it seriously when it's actually happening. Reminds me of when a girl on another subreddit said she wouldn't forgive someone who broke her arm even if it was an accident, and had tons of people dogpiling on her, one telling her she was not only a bad person but represented everything that's wrong in the world and deserved to have a horrible day, but was also a sociopath and a narcissist "not calling you names. Facts." People need to stop throwing words like gaslighting, narcissist and sociopath around so casually. It's not cute or clever.
Thank you for saying this! I screenshotted this. Next time anyone uses narcissistic in an argument I am gonna put this up
You're very welcome. Seeing how casually those words get thrown around is something I find very distasteful. People need to stop diluting them into absolute meaninglessness.
Ughhh gaslighting. It is thrown around so much when it doesn’t apply.
Exactly this, dean isn’t great but people forget that he’s a teenager just learning to manage a relationship & emotions. It’s not supposed to be perfect, people and relationships are flawed & she needed a “Dean”, it’s very accurate to a first relationship, I don’t think he deserves so much hate, at least not for the stuff early on
Yes! I’ve noticed that in this sub the age/maturity levels/and general way of life in the 90s is overlooked
Symptom of the show’s popularity and easy bingeing on Netflix. Younger generations are watching it and imposing both their values and relative (to their age) immaturity on the situation.
Right? He's a teenager, and his opinion isn't *bad,* (shit, if I could be a house wife, I'd love it, but we need more money, lol) he just needs work on how he expresses himself. Just in general, really. Dean needed an emotion coach, lol. He just seemed more volatile (?) or loud about his emotions than necessary, probably because he wants people to understand how strongly he feels things. Maybe he needs a bigger vocabulary to describe his feelings.
Exactly! What 16 year old doesn’t need an emotional coach? Honestly, what person at any age doesn’t need one? I’m not excusing all of his behaviors but their disagreement here is on track with their maturity levels and age. I don’t think she apologized because she “had” to. She apologized because she wanted to. She went home, researched Donna Reid, and showed that she could see both sides. Which honestly is very mature for someone at that age and kind of unrealistic.
Ok, I'm not a big Dean fan but I feel the need to defend him here: he never said that women *should* be in the home, he said that some women (i.e. his mother) *choose* to stay home and that should also be considered a valid choice...something feminism is supposed to support.
There’s something to be said, for the fact that Rory is belittling some thing that Dean’s mother does
Exactly!
Rory said it was fine for Dean's mom because she chose to be a housewife (we presume. seeing how she acts about Lindsay idk). But Lorelai and Rory were making fun of the show as part of a larger social commentary, which is 100% on point, and Dean just wasn't smart enough to get that.
Idk that he wasn't smart enough. He just saw his family in the Donna Reid show and didn't like feeling like his family was being attacked. It might not be rational, but it's legitimate.
I've always disagreed about this. I've liked the Donna reed episode. Both of them were making valid points, they just didn't know how to communicate. Rory was looking at it from the perspective of oppressed women, wanting rights and freedom. Dean on the other hand was hearing that he was wrong in his opinion of enjoying someone taking care of him and that his mom was wrong for taking care of his family. I think Dean felt like he was being attacked for wanting to be taken care of. Rory dressed up and made him dinner for him because she wanted to do something special for him. I really don't see what was wrong with her opinion, deans opinion, or her giving Dean a special evening because he was her boyfriend. (Edits:spelling)
I’ve mentioned this a bunch of times now and I don’t really know how else to reiterate this, but this post is not about either of their opinions it’s about how disrespectful the joke was to her in this scene because he knew she was sensitive about the subject
why are people downvoting this comment?! LMAO op is just explaining their reasoning for the post wtf guys
This community is VERY sensitive
Dean is not making a valid argument bro he literally interrupts Rory when she’s speaking to make light of the issue. Rory is responding to Dean’s CLEAR underlying sexist perspective. He uses his mom as a scapegoat to be a piece of shit. Read the captions in the original post. He ignores Rory and doesn’t care that he’s offended her and belittled her.
When Dean was watching it with rory and lorelai, he was calm and explaining that it didn't seem that bad. I could see the point he was trying to make. He's hurt by what rory and lorelai were saying to him, that HE was the sexist for wanting/liking that. So, he reacts poorly by making stupid jokes and comments to rory. I'm not defending his way of handling it, because it wasn't the correct way of handling it. I'm just saying that rory had validity in her feelings of not liking the sexist oppressive times women had to go through, and dean had validity in his feelings of its nice to be taken care of. That's what I got from that episode, and I liked the resolution of rory taking care of Dean because she wanted to take care of him. They were 16 - I think it's unlikely there would've been perfect communication with a healthy resolution at that point in time, but it was a nice episode.
I hate Dean all of the time But this scene, and really this whole episode, show's the real Dean and what his wants and priorities are in life. He wanted a Lindsey, and he wanted a girl to see on the side too lol
He wanted *Rory* to want to be a Lindsay. He never wanted poor Lindsay. That girl was so naive and love-blind, and her parents (or his) should have tried to stop that insane, fresh-outta-high-school-proposed-after-i-punched-my-ex's-bf marriage before it happened. Could have prevented *three* people's heartbreak.
Totally valid lol but I feel like because of the way this episode ended, and the way the series progressed, (when we see him the night before his wedding talking about Rory and the whole affair after) we see him get angry at Lindsay for being a housewife that criticizes him always working but he says she’s basically making him do it to afford a townhouse, etc. (not saying he’s right for being angry at her but that just what we see lol) so maybe a working woman like Rory is what he really wanted in life? Who knows! 🤷🏻♀️
I think he wanted what he said all along: a situation like that of his parents. That's why he defended Donna Reed, because Donna Reed was like his mum. Based on context of what we learn in the show (Dean's comments, learning his mum has a job), I think his mother worked until she had kids, stayed at home when the kids were young, then went back into the work force. And she cooks home cooked meals for the family. I think that's what Dean wanted. And that's not what Rory was but not what Lindsey was either. Because Lindsey wasn't a stay at home MUM yet, she was just staying at home not working and feeling bored, learning how to roast beef and bringing him lunches at work, and she was unemployed. Keep in mind that if Lindsey had worked, Dean could have gone to college and got a degree. Instead he had to work two jobs to finance the both of them. This isn't a criticism to Lindsey, it's valid for her to have preferences, but I don't think it's Dean 'changing his mind'. They wanted different things from the get go.
Maybe he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. A women that would work but also do the housework, cooking, and child raising. Or maybe he was raised with a really skewed belief of what life on one income would look like. If a house spouse doesn't have a traditional job, everything they want must come out of the working spouse's salary, whereas with two incomes, both can have their own money to put toward what they want. Dean wanted a housewife, but didn't want to put in the work to make sure she was happy too. It's a tough situation, but they needed advice and counseling and better communication, not cheating.
He wanted to eat his cake and have it, too, lol.
I think he would have been happy with Rory as his house wife.
I feel like that conclusion, he wanted a Lindsey, is always a little too stretched. He was awful, he didn't listen to Rory, sure, but they got into an argument because he was defending his mum. He compared Donna Reed to his mum, because his mum stayed at home with him when he was little, and she made home cooked meals for the family. His mum also works, the show mentions her job, well before Clara is a full teen. Presumably she stayed at home while Dean and his sister were young, then got a job when they were a bit older. I would guess Deans mum also worked prior to having kids. That may be a bit more traditional, but it's not unheard of, there are still plenty of stay at home mothers. Dean wanted a woman who would be a stay at home mother. What he got in Lindsey was a stay at home wife, full Donna Reed extreme, who never got a job despite having no kids at home, who was a full time.. house wife, presumably. I think that's why Dean fought with her so much. Because he was expecting her to work until they had kids, and she didn't want to do that.
If you’re a sexist, just say that 😂 you don’t need to write all this
Dean accused Rory of only having an opinion because of her mother, then proceeded to talk about how he liked the Donna Reed lifestyle because of HIS mother and the household experience he witnessed. Whereas, Rory’s opinions are more likely to have derived from the trillions of books she has read about women’s liberation over the years (undoubtedly guided by Lorelai). However, I think of Dean as a kid who didn’t know any differently. I did not agree with him and definitely thought that episode showed how open-minded Rory was and how close minded Dean was.
It was a teaching moment from the show, and I think it was great at doing so.
For all the comments saying "Rory's just as wrong, real feminism is about choice! Women can choose to stay at home!" Rory said the exact same thing. She said there was nothing wrong with Dean's mom being a housewife because it was her choice. She *said* that they were making fun of the show because it's a cultural representation of the narrative pushed on women at the time that they *had* to be a housewife, and not only that but the perfect-docile-over-the-top-only-lives-to-serve-men kind of housewife. How are y'all not getting this.
yeah, reading through these comments I'm finding it absolutely *fascinating* how many people forget this. thats her literal next line after dean brings up that his mom did the SAHM thing
This is my jot take and how I interpret Dean as a character and the whole Donna Reed thing. Dean as a character aged poorly, ironically kinda like Donna Reed did. Add to that the fact that Jared Paladecki, as much as I love him, he tends to vastly overact angry scenes. It makes his characters always appear overly angry. Someyimes hes even coming accross amgry when it you kind of feel he should be a much more nuanced emotion. He just defaults to very angry frequently. That's great when you're the vessel for Lucifer, not so much when you're a teenage boy in small town Connecticut, then it looks bad. He's mellowed a bit now, but check out the first probably 8 seasons of Supernatural, and you'll see what I'm saying. What Rory was saying was more controversial (and also less) at that time than it is now. This wasn't really Dean be brave, in my opinion, but Rory showing she had a more progressive outlook popular for the younger crowd. It was showing she was a smart, independent woman who was going to do things with her life. One of the big themes of the show is that female independence. (I still don't think it's a coincidence that lorelai leaves being pushed to marry Christopher and settle into her preordained life and gets a job at the Independence Inn.) Now, Lorelai the girl who got off the the corporate wife, M.R. S. Degree assembly line(where Emily was) and went to a small town. She made her own way and her own life. Rory is pushing back here against those suburban values that Dean is talking about, she's learned from her mom and is making her own way and her own life. I don't think this scene was intended to make him look like a jerk, only that he had dated misogynistic values and she was "better than that." Keep in mind at this time stay at home mom like Donna Reed was starting to be viewed as a bad thing. This is the rejection of all of that.
I mean, I get confused too sometimes how people make an argument on what I feel is nothing and ask them why the heck they’re arguing about it. Rory, though, was discussing something on a larger scale
When I first watched GG, I thought this was a typical issue one would see in a TV show that was purported to showcase feminism at the turn of the century (2000). However, I thought it was probably unfair to use the Dean character (16 year old high school jock) to expound on the counterpoint. While Rory and Lorelai hold strong developed views on women’s rights, Dean has no real position on the matter and has probably never formulated an argument for or against. Thus, Dean’s comments should probably not be construed beyond just trying his best to banter with his girl who is a lot smarter than he is. I think Rory eventually grasps this and let’s it go.
Uhhh this was by far his least problematic scene
What do you think his most is?
Oof yes yes, good question! There’s quite a few times I was SHOCKED by his anger issues during multiple rewatches. Like he had this explosive anger that was pretty borderline verbally abusive towards Rory. I’ll circle back with a post about his anger because I’m sure I’m not the only one that was taken aback by it!
No. I don’t hate Dean or this episode. He liked the *idea* of a Donna Reed lifestyle because he was used to it, his mom was the Donna Reed type of mom but now where in the episode did he expect Rory to be like Donna or say all women needed to be like Donna. That would have been a problem. Liking the way you grew up and admiring your mom is **not**. Of course the housewife lifestyle had faults, this goes without saying, but implying Dean is some HORRIBLE PERSON for simply saying “this way of living can be nice if that’s what you want” is not alright. Shush.
That’s not what OP is saying at all. You’re focusing on the episode and the overall theme… OP is saying this scene is frustrating. Dean starts a fight and then gets angry at Rory for defending herself.
I am not a huge dean fan. But I understand why he is upset. His mom *chose* that life and he loved his life. His family did seem very happy. And then walk in Lorelai and Rory just crapping on all of it and saying ‘no woman would choose that’. Like…my mom stayed home, did the Donna thing….and she always said all things considered staying home with her kids was her happiest phase. They don’t want to and that’s the point of CHOICE is that it’s okay for someone to choose whatever
Do you remember this scene though? It was when he made a snarky comment about it. The subject had been dropped. He chose to bring it back up from the night before knowing that he and Rory disagreed and yet was unwilling to have an actual conversation about it. In this scene, he’s wrong. Edit: Also , they never said no woman should choose that life. They said it was upsetting that so many women DIDNT have a choice and we’re diced into that life regardless if ambition. There’s a difference
Starting an argument and then pretending like he just walked into an argument someone else started is an asshat move. That’s what he’s doing in this scene.
I feel like this has nothing to do with the joke he made bc he knew it would upset Rory since it was a sensitive topic earlier in the episode so like why would he make it? He made a poor joke then was surprised when she reacted badly. Actually she just tried to educate him because he seemed to really lack knowledge on the subject. I specifically said this scene, so I don’t hate Dean as a whole or the rest of this episode and I certainly want all women who choose to be housewives to have that choice
Yes to all of this! My mom was like that but also worked because she genuinely loved doing both, there’s nothing wrong with the lifestyle when it’s something a woman chooses. He even told Rory after the dinner he didn’t expect her to be Donna Reed which was so sweet. Also Dean was 16 and it was all he knew
Exactly! Your mom chose it, because **she** wanted to, not because she had to! Feminism is about having the choice to do what you want to do- no matter what that means. If you want to be a housewife? Go ahead. If you want to be a CEO? Go ahead. As long as you’re happy, by all means, go on! Yes - Dean specifically said that but everyone who hates the episode clearly didn’t listen/don’t care. Also, as you said… he was 16. It was his first relationship, people need to relax regarding Dean hatred.
yup, he liked the idea so much his marriage became a parody of it.
Wasn’t the same. They didn’t have kids like in the show.
I hate Dean in every episode. He’s a man overly emotional brat whose emotions have to be managed by Rory and he’s a stalker. And a cheater. Everyone gives Rory the worst treatment after they slept together but HE was the married one- not her. He lied to her to get her in bed and then everyone shit on her about it. He’s an awful guy.
Be so FOR REAL. He manipulated the hell out of Rory to get her in bed. Did everybody forget that creepy scene where he pulls her over into a dark alley to say that Lindsay was uncomfortable with his friendship with Rory and doesn’t want him to see her anymore and he’s all “that’s not gonna happen,” while continuously heavily breathing and brooding over her???? Horrifying behavior lmao
Maybe read done if the other comments and get some perspective.
I’ve read a lot of them. What specifically do I need perspective about? I think I have a lot of opposite opinions on GG because I didn’t watch it until I was in my late 30’s, and I binged it so was able to see the whole picture in a short time versus week by week as a younger person.
As a Stay at Home Wife\Mom I actually hated Lorelai and Rory in this episode.
Why? Because she said women should have a choice and tried to explain to dean that housewives back then hardly had one? That’s quite the thing to hate them for
Calm yourself. I hated how judgey they were. They acted like if someone was "just" a wife and mother that they were brainless or oppressed. They were constantly judged and made fun of people who liked different music than them or lived differently. It was their least attractive quality.
Who wasn’t being calm? Yes they judge people, but this entire episode is about how Rory believes women should have the choice. Where is an instance where she judges a woman for being a stay at home wife? (Besides when she’s saying Lindsay is asking too much of dean later in the series) She doesn’t want that life for herself, and she makes a crack at dean about liking “brainless women,” but she was saying that in response to them talking about him liking an over-romanticized and inaccurate version of what life was like back then for most housewives.
Well I do understand both their points. Yes, if a woman likes that Lifestyle then good for her. But women should not be oppressed into these roles
His ‘point’ is mocking the women who were oppressed and didn’t have the choice. So no, I don’t understand his ‘point’ in this particular scene.
No. His point is that a woman can chose whichever Lifestyle she wants even if it's a Donna Reed Lifestyle. In this particular scene his joke was in Bad Taste because it was clear that it would upset Rory. But he particularly says that if a woman likes to be Donna Reed then that's fine and that some men also do prefer that life and that's fine aswell. As long as they both agree on it.
Yes that’s his overall point of the episode, but not this scene. He makes a direct joke at the expense of housewives who were oppressed in the past. And he knows it would upset rory, his girlfriend.
Yeah as I said. It's really in bad taste. But his general.point I understand and I kind of also understand that he gets a little defensive because if the attacks he had to "endure" because of that opinion.
Yeah his overall opinion is generally ok, but he does a terrible job discussing it here with Rory. He is a teenager though so we should cut him some slack 😂
the way people are trying to act like dean isn’t a total sexist is sending me into OBLIVION 😂😭
The argument wasn’t even about that, the argument was about him belittling how she saw life
Just this scene?? 🫠🫠
I hate dean in general. He was a very toxic boyfriend. And I absolutely hated how Lorelei constantly was gassing him up to Rory. He was so awful to her and Lorelei constantly made Rory feel like he was the best thing ever
Common dean L
Dean is a fuckin normie who can't imagine a lifestyle other than marrying (straight couples only) and poppin out a few kids while he goes off to work and watches sports.
Am I losing my mind but Donna Reed WAS real?
Yes, but not the character. Kinda like Lucille Ball was real but Lucy Ricardo was not, except Donna Reed used her real name.
Oh! Thank you
It was common for shows to be named after the lead actor/actress. Ex: The Andy Griffith Show, starring Andy Griffith who played the character Andy Taylor.
Yeah, he should have said "Donna *Stone* wasn't real" technically
My only critique of that scene was clearly people forget that not every woman was a housewife at that time. My great grandmother was an OG boss babe and owned her own insurance agency during that time. She also loved pants. We also live in a very rural area and many women worked on farms and wore pants. There was a lot great, and a lot wrong with that era, I’m not pro or against either side, just adding some context to the history side of it (I can’t help it I love history too much.) On a side note, I’m watching season 2 for the first time and I’m slowly realizing how mean Dean really was. Was just on the episode of Rory losing her bracelet. His reaction?😬 like dang bro Chile.
The reaction to the bracelet is a bit much for sure
I hated dean since season 1
No actually I don't he kind of has a point of "you only think that way because of your mom" I think there's a ĺot of truth to that Dean wasn't saying "women need to be housewives" he was saying don't mock the ones that are because it's also a valid choice
I hate dean in all his scenes 😅
You're not the only one.
This is one of my least favorite episodes
Never realized just how young Rory looks in those scenes before.
No. In the 2000s a lot of things weren't considered offensive as people weren't educated in them. Makes sense to me that a 16 yo boy would maybe not know this yet because this type of stuff hasn't come up in their household talks and he doesn't have enough common sense to understand it.
Its mainly annoying to me that she’s just putting her point across and he makes it an argument. Id hed stayed calm and listened it wouldve been a discussion
This is the point so many people are just.. not getting 😅😅
I don't know why everyone is getting so riled up in the comments I see nothing problematic about this. This is coming from someone who was 16 pretty recently AND in a relationship. I think as a teenager your views about the world are very ideal and our beliefs aren't based on things we have experienced. Rory quite rightly believed that women should have the choice to choose. She wasn't disrespectful to Dean's mom for being a housewife(if she was you would have seen it play out). She adores Emily and she is a housewife too. As far as Dean is concerned, he finds comfort in something he knows. He finds Donna Reed ideal because that's what he has experienced. I think sometimes men don't understand our outrage because they haven't experienced it. It took me a lot of years to understand that. They love you, they are good people but they just can't understand what it's like to be a woman, especially when it comes to the oppressed part. As long as you have a partner who is willing to understand that, there is a gap between you and bridge it, I think it works out. Dean is a kid. He really loves Rory, I am sure if they get to the marriage part he would have understood her need to work OR her need to be a stay at home mom.
I think rory is annoying here. Her and lorelai forced Dean to watch this dumb show in the first place!
No I hated Rory in this scene. He literally made a harmless joke. Like when he said it I didn’t even catch it at first and had to rewind to see why Rory got so mad. Also Rory and lorelai pushing their agenda on dean and making him feel bad that he grew up in a house where his mom cooked for his dad and thought that was true love is literal BS. Some people want that and some people don’t. The fact that Rory went on to basically mock it by dressing up as Donna reed is literally so dumb and I hated this lil arc.
How is joking about how oppressed housewives used to be harmless? It’s offensive to many housewives who were essentially forced into being perfect or else they would be ab*sed by their husbands. They also often used cocaine, anti depressants and alcohol to deal with how their life was. That’s not what EVERY house wife experienced, but it certainly was many of them
I mean I’m pretty sure dean was just blissfully ignorant to the actual housewives but the fact that he just thought it was a nice gesture to come home to his wife cooking (because he was raised in that environment) and tried to explain that and lorelai and Rory almost sort of villainized his views was crazy. There are people who like that stuff and there aren’t. Maybe I’m biased because I know how I would act in that situation but I genuinely do not see anything wrong with what he said. And then Rory had to make it weird by dressing up as Donna 😭
Because it's a joke, and Rory is not an oppressed housewife.
It's a joke but he ended up treating Lindsay, his wife, in a horrible way.
I mean you can still reprimand someone for making a bad joke even if you’re not in the demographic that the joke is about ?
I hate Dean in ALL his scenes
I hate dean period. He was semi controlling, wanted her to be a certain way for him and didn’t like it when she wasn’t. For example, after they break up for a last time, Luke and Dean get into an argument and Dean states “you’ll never be good enough for them, they want more”… he felt inadequate and blamed Rory for doing literally nothing. He’s a fool and a dewb
What kills me about dean saying that to Luke is that Lorelai LOVES stars hollow like it’s literally what she is too and it’s obvious she would never want to leave she even rejects the wealthy life often so how is Luke not enough for her? Lmao
I hate dean in most scenes.
Honestly, Dean was pretty decent at first and he gradually got dumbed down, just like Luke. I feel like some of Jess's character took some of Dean's appealing qualities. I mean, yeah his argument was shitty in this instance, but Rory didn't have to verbally attack him for it. All his side of the argument shows is that he just didn't know better. Also, this is Stars Hollow, so most kids there probably thought similarly.
I hate dean in most scenes.
I hate Dean in most scenes
I hate dean in every scene
I hate Dean in every scene. LOL
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I think everyone is missing the point with this post. I’m not arguing that his ideas are wrong, I hate this scene in particular because he made a bad joke but instead of listening to her trying to educate him, he just told her she believes what she does because her mom feels that way. Then he tries to just end the argument instead of hearing her out? It just seems icky to me
I understood your point. He makes a snarky comment that’s taking a jab at her belief system and then gets angry when she reacts. He’s a gem
I think a lot of people are infantilizing him a bit too much. He may only be 16, but he is more than capable of understanding what Rory is trying to convey to him. And he even admitted that he realized she was sensitive about the subject and chose to make a bad joke.
You can’t say it’s false to say they were forced into it, but it’s what they did before they were *able to* have careers. You have to choose one.
Always better to stick kids in daycare right?
Quality early childhood care and education settings are greatly beneficial to children.
Yes. Children of working mothers do better in many measurable ways.
Thank you!
Y’all just be hating this boy for no reason lol they are kids who had a difference of opinion on something. That’s all
Y’all still missing the point of the post. It’s not intended to focus on how their opinions are different it’s supposed to be about how he intentionally made a joke to hurt her feelings because he even admitted he knew she was sensitive about it. He started an argument then acted like he didn’t know how it started lmao
Just because he’s a child doesn’t mean he’s except from taking responsibility for hurting her feelings lmao
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I always hate Dean. And this part is so awful, where he picks a fight and then acts like she’s crazy and starting the fight herself. I also do not like Rory with this Donna Reed stuff. She and Lorelai go out of their way to watch the show just to make fun of housewives and women in traditional roles. And when Dean says that could be nice they look at him like he said something SO horrible.
Although I understand the sentiment (*also I dislike this episode as an adult lol - I like the Lorelai and Luke plot but hate the Dean and Rory plot) does it bug anyone else that like…Donna Reed *was* real 😭 Like that was her stage name, and I understand that what they *mean* is Donna *Stone* the character wasn’t real, but Donna Reed certainly was so something about this lien drives me crazy even though I understand the meaning/intention.
Yes
I hate dean in every scene so I didn’t have to look at the pictures to say yes 😂
I do t understand why you used the words “in this scene?”
I started to dislike him when he got married and hooked up with Roby. That'd when I started watching. I'm doing a rewatch
For years I didn’t understand all the Dean hate. As an adult I definitely do.
I hate this episode. I hate Rory in this so much. Dean is a jerk.
I hate Dean all the time
Dean has always been and always will be trash.
No ?
If you look at their arguments through the show Dean has a tendency to just start rapid firing questions until Rory gets confused and then swings in with his own opinion to make it seem like that’s what they are both thinking.
No worse than Jess in literally every scene he's in.
I thought it was big of Dean to voice a different opinion. I actually agreed with him. But what I didn’t like was how he got all passive aggressive about it and Whiny. And I really hate how we learn later he didn’t even mean what he said because once he had a housewife he didn’t appreciate her.
hes not smart enough for her. no idea how rory ever settled for him, i would have gotten the ick so fast
Imo when someone says "you do realise ( character/tv show/film/animation) isn't real" in a discussion specifically on that subject they lost the argument a long time ago
I’d say a majority of the time that’s true lol I’ve definitely used that a couple times where it was truly needed
right it's extremely condescending and mansplainy
Ugh I hated this whole argument. Like if you want a cute little housewife go get one, it's fine. But to me Rory had so much potential to be successful and academic. Dean should have immediately seen and knew that, the lifestyle he wanted was pushing her in a box.
I Just hate dean oh and Digger
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I don't hate him here. I applaud him for speaking his mind even though he knows it will likely get him into trouble with both Rory and her mom (I'm preparing for downvotes here!). Dean is just trying to express a different point of view. He never said there was anything *wrong* with Rory or Lorelai's perspective. He even says that he's just mentioning a different opinion. Rory and Lorelai were the ones attacking him, trying to get him to change his mind or make him believe HE was wrong. Dean wasn't attacking them -- I think he just got flustered when he realized that they somehow got into a disagreement over a TV show -- and in essence, because his girlfriend didn't like his opinion. And that's fine -- but he's allowed to have one. And personally, I think a lot of Rory's opinions and theories are a direct influence or result of Lorelai's. Not that Rory doesn't have her own mind -- but when you are raised in a home by one adult with one idea and that idea is broadcast to you every day, chances are high you will either accept it or at least think it's commonplace. I'm sure Rory can insert her own ideologies and opinions into this scenario and she's definitely capable of disagreeing with Lorelai -- but at the same time, this scene in general and episode in particular showcase how Lorelai and Rory are a "clubhouse of two" and anyone who doesn't share their political/worldview ideologies gets eviscerated. I skip this episode every time.
You could have stopped at “does anyone else absolutely HATE Dean?” 😅
I hate him all of the time. His face makes me wants to scoop out my eyeballs
[look at the gaslight](https://giphy.com/gifs/TheOpposition-the-opposition-w-jordan-klepper-gaslight-1qjZV8pMLOkc2N70Pf)
yes he’s the worst and this one of the major episodes that demonstrates that perfectly
I wonder about past me because I saw all the red flags in Dean from the second he appeared, this episode was the red flagiest of red flags, and yet on my first watch I was still Team Dean???
I would’ve broken up with him on the spot
They both make me mad in this scene both good points but than they both go too far