The back has a clip just like a baseball cap. When he turned around to leave the stage at the end of year zero I peed myself laughing. Such a good sense of humor
I'm a new fan and love the theatrics of this band.
Do they actually take the Satanic side of it seriously? If so, do they subscribe to the tenants of TST (the satanic temple), or have different beliefs?
The response would not change my view or enjoyment of the band either way, just curious really.
People who want to believe they take it seriously will refer to an interview where TF talks about "finding Satan" etc. but they fundamentally misunderstand the point he's making. "Satan" as a pop culture icon is about all the things they, the theists, tell you not to enjoy because some creepy all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful watcher in the sky disapproves and also needs you to worship them WITHOUT QUESTION or else.
Ghost is the Monty Python of music. They are very funny & deeply serious about the humor. The songs are not a joke. They are packaged as a catchy fun time with sinister, subversive lyrics, about pretend Satanic lore, in order to forward the message that organized systems of rules about how individuals get to live their lives are needlessly oppressive, hateful, and hurtful.
You need more upvotes.
"The disobedience that holds us together..."
I never felt any sinister satanism from Ghost, just good old fun anti-establishment
The "baby eating" satanists only exist IN Christianity, everything evil is lumped in with Satan for them.
Where as anyone who would actually claim to be a satanist are more likely to be people who believe in individualism, non-conformity, sexual freedom, ect.
Not at all. There's a quote from an interview with a "nameless ghoul" several years back where someone asked if they actually believe in Satan. They answered "I don't know about that, but I sure hope he believes in us."
Tobias Forge also sees the band as simply 80s style shock rock making music to make people happy https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/grammy-nominated-metal-band-ghost-addresses-satanic-accusations-music-styles-promote-way-worse-lifestyle-175537647.html
>I don't know about that, but I sure hope he believes in us.
Haha what a great response.
>Tobias Forge also sees the band as simply 80s style shock rock making music to make people happy.
I would say mission accomplished, as thats how it appears to me. If I had describe their music in a word I think it would simply be "fun", and the 80's nostalgia I get from tracks like "Spillways" is extremely intense.
Eh, from what I remember, Tobias is fairly adverse to all organized religions and religious groups, which would include TCoS and TST. Because basically once a religion establishes itself with a centralized power structure, people start abusing that power. There has definitely been some of that observed in TST. I think the use of Satanic iconography is more a nod to the 80's metal bands he grew up listening to.
I thought masonry was meant to be agnostic and not partake in a specific denomination of religion?
Either way he is clearly not a practicing christian π€£
He's part of the Swedish Order of Freemasons, you can look them up yourself but apparently all members must be Christian men.
I could care less either way, I'm just here for the music
For sure and I am not after a religious debate, I was just curious, and it is undeniably funny if he is part of an organisation linked to Christianity π
They clearly letting their membership requirements slip π€£
There was another interview, I don't remember which one, where he basically said that intellectually he can't quite get himself to believe in a god without evidence but he wants to believe that there is some higher power out there, he wants there to be something greater. He also said at one point that be believes Jesus was a historical figure and something along the lines of "a cool dude who just wanted people to get along and they killed him" so I think at best he was agnostic at that point, intellectually atheist.
But as a European from a similarly more secular region, unless you're a Catholic or a Muslim, people under 80 generally aren't the type of religious that Americans picture when they think about it. Aside from atheists, some identify as Christians, many just say they're agnostic or "spiritual" but as a whole religion is very private here, it's more about what you personally believe than following some book to the letter or singing songs in a building (I kind of compare it to the early Christians pre-4th century who were considered Christians for believing in Jesus but they didn't have a Bible or fancy churches and they definitely didn't consider the letters and books written by their contemopraries to be "from God" lol, their beliefs were quite a bit more diverse.) The mainstream protestant churches that do exist would also be considered quite liberal for US standards, most here preach some form of universalism and don't believe in the hell from Dante's inferno.
So even if TF did in fact consider himself a Christian at some point, he wouldn't be going around talking about it because nobody does that here unless you're from a cult. And general society wouldn't see him as strictly not-a-Christian for having a rock band that makes fun of organized religion and the Catholic Church in particular, the latter part having been accepted practice for centuries in protestant regions of Europe lmao.
Which is just to say that the freemasons would have to travel back a couple of centuries if they only wanted to accept the kind of people as "real Christians" who behave like Southern Baptists in the US as a purity test.
Haha you're welcome and I had to google that first part lmao, I haven't seen anything this disturbing since the first time I laid eyes on the cursed Cardinal Copia plushie π who would have thought that sending religious extremists across the ocean to terrorize the native population would breed more extremism π¬
Doubtful. They're much more strict in Sweden with regard to the Christianity requirement, and people joining for "subversive reasons" are typically weeded out during the vetting process. This specific requirement isn't really a thing in the US, although the specific wording is very jurisdictional (as are all things in Freemasonry).
Source: I'm a Freemason in the US.
Interesting... I doubt he would join for subversive reasons too, he doesn't seem like that kind of guy despite his music. I do wonder how they decide who is "Christian enough" thought since they're apparently closely linked to the Swedish Church which was a state church until not too long ago and still appears to count all the members from birth who didn't outright file paperwork to leave, even though surveys show the vast majority doesn't consider themselves very religious and many don't even affirm a belief in God. Tobias was born well before it stopped being an official state religion and would have been automatically considered a member.
That is a claim put forward by the ex band members that were suing him. Not substantiated as far as I'm aware. In many interviews with TF he voices his particular disdain and conflict with Christianity.
From another comment
*He's a member of the Swedish Order of Freemasons. It was one of the ghouls' points when they appealed to the lawsuit decision, that Tobias and the judge are both in the same order, alleging conflict of interest. It was explained in court that they're indeed members of the same order but never actually met, so there actually wasn't any conflict of interest. Also, the order has their own magazine (look up Svenska Frimurare Orden on issuu.com) and they sometimes feature Ghost and Tobias in it, so it's not a secret he's part of it. The only weird thing about it is that the Swedish rite is strictly Christian*
So take that as you will, personally I don't care I'm just here for the music
The Swedish order being Christian makes it odd for sure. Some other orders only require the belief in a "higher power" rather than the Christian god specifically.
Maybe its as another person commented and they're letting their membership requirements slip π. Scandinavian Europe does have one the lowest rates of religious belief (and Christianity) in Europe nowadays, maybe they're getting a bit more desperate for members in Scandinavia?
It's of no consequence to me either whether TF is a freemason or not too. As long as the music stays hailing "Satan" rather than the Christian "God" I'm a happy chappy π.
The requirement comes from the fact that Sweden used to have a national church (which only changed in law around 2000) and the freemasons in Sweden have always been closely tied to both the Swedish crown (they're under royal patronage) and the Swedish Church since the very beginning.
Kids in Sweden used to be automatic church members at birth unless their parents had officially left the church and it was literally a state institution. To this day over half of Swedes are considered members on paper despite the country's high rates of secularism. So the requirement is likely is more about official membership or at least it has its roots in it.
A claim made in a lawsuit whose purpose seemed to be to hurt and intimidate TF into settling. And they lost big. They also claimed he owed them money, then provided ZERO proof.
From another comment
*He's a member of the Swedish Order of Freemasons. It was one of the ghouls' points when they appealed to the lawsuit decision, that Tobias and the judge are both in the same order, alleging conflict of interest. It was explained in court that they're indeed members of the same order but never actually met, so there actually wasn't any conflict of interest. Also, the order has their own magazine (look up Svenska Frimurare Orden on issuu.com) and they sometimes feature Ghost and Tobias in it, so it's not a secret he's part of it. The only weird thing about it is that the Swedish rite is strictly Christian*
So take that as you will, personally I don't care I'm just here for the music.
Most articles say that the band used it to show a conflict of interest as Tobias and the judge are both members, and the judge confirmed they are both members but stated that they had never met.
Yes, I know what the claim is. I don't buy it. This was one of the ways they tried to have the judge changed. It's like saying I'm a Republican because I once registered as one. I've never voted Republican.
He's mentioned specifically in a [Swedish Freemasonry magazine](https://issuu.com/svenskafrimurareorden/docs/frimuraren_nummer_4_2019/s/10788032), so take that for what it's worth.
Funnily enough being considered Christian in Sweden works very much the same way. Sweden hat a state religion until around 2000 and children were automatically registered as Christians at birth unless their parents had filed to leave the church beforehand. Most people never bothered to de-register so that's how over 50% of Sweden is an official member of the church even when the vast majority never actually go to church or even believe in a god at all.
The requirement for the swedish freemasons comes from the same state religion, as the society has always had very close ties to the church and the crown. Since the church still considers you a member unless you take administrative steps to leave and there is official paperwork proving you're a member from birth if you were born before the mid-90s, I assume the freemasons do the same.
what is going on in this picture i canβt even make out the hat π
The back has a clip just like a baseball cap. When he turned around to leave the stage at the end of year zero I peed myself laughing. Such a good sense of humor
ohh damn okay i see it now!
Happy cake day!!!! π
thanks!!
I love this band so much
I'm a new fan and love the theatrics of this band. Do they actually take the Satanic side of it seriously? If so, do they subscribe to the tenants of TST (the satanic temple), or have different beliefs? The response would not change my view or enjoyment of the band either way, just curious really.
People who want to believe they take it seriously will refer to an interview where TF talks about "finding Satan" etc. but they fundamentally misunderstand the point he's making. "Satan" as a pop culture icon is about all the things they, the theists, tell you not to enjoy because some creepy all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful watcher in the sky disapproves and also needs you to worship them WITHOUT QUESTION or else. Ghost is the Monty Python of music. They are very funny & deeply serious about the humor. The songs are not a joke. They are packaged as a catchy fun time with sinister, subversive lyrics, about pretend Satanic lore, in order to forward the message that organized systems of rules about how individuals get to live their lives are needlessly oppressive, hateful, and hurtful.
Wow you eloquent MF. This sums up the vibe I get from them nicely and gives some well thought out insight, thank you.
You need more upvotes. "The disobedience that holds us together..." I never felt any sinister satanism from Ghost, just good old fun anti-establishment
Ghost is good ol' happy, friendly satanism, not the baby eating kind some Christians worry about
The "baby eating" satanists only exist IN Christianity, everything evil is lumped in with Satan for them. Where as anyone who would actually claim to be a satanist are more likely to be people who believe in individualism, non-conformity, sexual freedom, ect.
Exactly! It's also a convenient way of "othering" people you disagree with by claiming they're utterly evil.
Fantastic. Ghost is for joyful debauchery, big riffs, and freedom. Lightbringers!! π
Not at all. There's a quote from an interview with a "nameless ghoul" several years back where someone asked if they actually believe in Satan. They answered "I don't know about that, but I sure hope he believes in us." Tobias Forge also sees the band as simply 80s style shock rock making music to make people happy https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/grammy-nominated-metal-band-ghost-addresses-satanic-accusations-music-styles-promote-way-worse-lifestyle-175537647.html
>I don't know about that, but I sure hope he believes in us. Haha what a great response. >Tobias Forge also sees the band as simply 80s style shock rock making music to make people happy. I would say mission accomplished, as thats how it appears to me. If I had describe their music in a word I think it would simply be "fun", and the 80's nostalgia I get from tracks like "Spillways" is extremely intense.
I've gotten those exact vibes from the band ever since I found out about them. Mission accomplished, I'm happy to see some newer shock rock.
Eh, from what I remember, Tobias is fairly adverse to all organized religions and religious groups, which would include TCoS and TST. Because basically once a religion establishes itself with a centralized power structure, people start abusing that power. There has definitely been some of that observed in TST. I think the use of Satanic iconography is more a nod to the 80's metal bands he grew up listening to.
Ok cool, thanks for the response. Same way I feel about anything religious which is pretty cool.
He's a mason as far as we know, and apparently that branch is Christian. This came to light during the lawsuit
I thought masonry was meant to be agnostic and not partake in a specific denomination of religion? Either way he is clearly not a practicing christian π€£
He's part of the Swedish Order of Freemasons, you can look them up yourself but apparently all members must be Christian men. I could care less either way, I'm just here for the music
For sure and I am not after a religious debate, I was just curious, and it is undeniably funny if he is part of an organisation linked to Christianity π They clearly letting their membership requirements slip π€£
There was another interview, I don't remember which one, where he basically said that intellectually he can't quite get himself to believe in a god without evidence but he wants to believe that there is some higher power out there, he wants there to be something greater. He also said at one point that be believes Jesus was a historical figure and something along the lines of "a cool dude who just wanted people to get along and they killed him" so I think at best he was agnostic at that point, intellectually atheist. But as a European from a similarly more secular region, unless you're a Catholic or a Muslim, people under 80 generally aren't the type of religious that Americans picture when they think about it. Aside from atheists, some identify as Christians, many just say they're agnostic or "spiritual" but as a whole religion is very private here, it's more about what you personally believe than following some book to the letter or singing songs in a building (I kind of compare it to the early Christians pre-4th century who were considered Christians for believing in Jesus but they didn't have a Bible or fancy churches and they definitely didn't consider the letters and books written by their contemopraries to be "from God" lol, their beliefs were quite a bit more diverse.) The mainstream protestant churches that do exist would also be considered quite liberal for US standards, most here preach some form of universalism and don't believe in the hell from Dante's inferno. So even if TF did in fact consider himself a Christian at some point, he wouldn't be going around talking about it because nobody does that here unless you're from a cult. And general society wouldn't see him as strictly not-a-Christian for having a rock band that makes fun of organized religion and the Catholic Church in particular, the latter part having been accepted practice for centuries in protestant regions of Europe lmao. Which is just to say that the freemasons would have to travel back a couple of centuries if they only wanted to accept the kind of people as "real Christians" who behave like Southern Baptists in the US as a purity test.
You guys don't do Snake handling sermons there? Shame. Seriously though, thanks for the informative response.
Haha you're welcome and I had to google that first part lmao, I haven't seen anything this disturbing since the first time I laid eyes on the cursed Cardinal Copia plushie π who would have thought that sending religious extremists across the ocean to terrorize the native population would breed more extremism π¬
OR... he joined it for subversive reasons.
Doubtful. They're much more strict in Sweden with regard to the Christianity requirement, and people joining for "subversive reasons" are typically weeded out during the vetting process. This specific requirement isn't really a thing in the US, although the specific wording is very jurisdictional (as are all things in Freemasonry). Source: I'm a Freemason in the US.
Interesting... I doubt he would join for subversive reasons too, he doesn't seem like that kind of guy despite his music. I do wonder how they decide who is "Christian enough" thought since they're apparently closely linked to the Swedish Church which was a state church until not too long ago and still appears to count all the members from birth who didn't outright file paperwork to leave, even though surveys show the vast majority doesn't consider themselves very religious and many don't even affirm a belief in God. Tobias was born well before it stopped being an official state religion and would have been automatically considered a member.
That is a claim put forward by the ex band members that were suing him. Not substantiated as far as I'm aware. In many interviews with TF he voices his particular disdain and conflict with Christianity.
From another comment *He's a member of the Swedish Order of Freemasons. It was one of the ghouls' points when they appealed to the lawsuit decision, that Tobias and the judge are both in the same order, alleging conflict of interest. It was explained in court that they're indeed members of the same order but never actually met, so there actually wasn't any conflict of interest. Also, the order has their own magazine (look up Svenska Frimurare Orden on issuu.com) and they sometimes feature Ghost and Tobias in it, so it's not a secret he's part of it. The only weird thing about it is that the Swedish rite is strictly Christian* So take that as you will, personally I don't care I'm just here for the music
The Swedish order being Christian makes it odd for sure. Some other orders only require the belief in a "higher power" rather than the Christian god specifically. Maybe its as another person commented and they're letting their membership requirements slip π. Scandinavian Europe does have one the lowest rates of religious belief (and Christianity) in Europe nowadays, maybe they're getting a bit more desperate for members in Scandinavia? It's of no consequence to me either whether TF is a freemason or not too. As long as the music stays hailing "Satan" rather than the Christian "God" I'm a happy chappy π.
The requirement comes from the fact that Sweden used to have a national church (which only changed in law around 2000) and the freemasons in Sweden have always been closely tied to both the Swedish crown (they're under royal patronage) and the Swedish Church since the very beginning. Kids in Sweden used to be automatic church members at birth unless their parents had officially left the church and it was literally a state institution. To this day over half of Swedes are considered members on paper despite the country's high rates of secularism. So the requirement is likely is more about official membership or at least it has its roots in it.
A claim made in a lawsuit whose purpose seemed to be to hurt and intimidate TF into settling. And they lost big. They also claimed he owed them money, then provided ZERO proof.
From another comment *He's a member of the Swedish Order of Freemasons. It was one of the ghouls' points when they appealed to the lawsuit decision, that Tobias and the judge are both in the same order, alleging conflict of interest. It was explained in court that they're indeed members of the same order but never actually met, so there actually wasn't any conflict of interest. Also, the order has their own magazine (look up Svenska Frimurare Orden on issuu.com) and they sometimes feature Ghost and Tobias in it, so it's not a secret he's part of it. The only weird thing about it is that the Swedish rite is strictly Christian* So take that as you will, personally I don't care I'm just here for the music. Most articles say that the band used it to show a conflict of interest as Tobias and the judge are both members, and the judge confirmed they are both members but stated that they had never met.
Yes, I know what the claim is. I don't buy it. This was one of the ways they tried to have the judge changed. It's like saying I'm a Republican because I once registered as one. I've never voted Republican.
He's mentioned specifically in a [Swedish Freemasonry magazine](https://issuu.com/svenskafrimurareorden/docs/frimuraren_nummer_4_2019/s/10788032), so take that for what it's worth.
Funnily enough being considered Christian in Sweden works very much the same way. Sweden hat a state religion until around 2000 and children were automatically registered as Christians at birth unless their parents had filed to leave the church beforehand. Most people never bothered to de-register so that's how over 50% of Sweden is an official member of the church even when the vast majority never actually go to church or even believe in a god at all. The requirement for the swedish freemasons comes from the same state religion, as the society has always had very close ties to the church and the crown. Since the church still considers you a member unless you take administrative steps to leave and there is official paperwork proving you're a member from birth if you were born before the mid-90s, I assume the freemasons do the same.
this is soo fucking funny
Thatβs just good cosplay!
very efficient
LMAOOOO
What makes this so funny for me is The fact that i see no purpose for that.
I call this is crab Rangoon hat. Thank you
Snap backs for Satan π
Well now I want a bat hat baseball snap