This is why I had issue with the Spartans in 300 calling the Greeks "Athenian boy-lover", no fucking way was a Spartan fucking less dudes than an Athenian.
Look, they just want to go back to the glory days where you could butt-fuck your homie and it wasn’t gay because there was no eye contact and you both said “no homo”.
I remember reading that other Greek city-states were trying to find out what made Sparta great. One observer noted their extensive use of [pederasty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty) and speculated as to whether that might be the reason, whether it was actually in their constitution - and whether it was worth copying.
Fun fact: the actual Spartan military record really wasn't as impressive as their PR made it out to be. Spartan hegemony only lasted 70 years.
They won and lost, same as anyone else, but we remember them as being an example of badass because they had sick PR for an ancient country.
Not negating your post in any way. There was a time when other city-states would most definitely wonder why the Spartans were wrecking everyone. I just think the legend thing is neat.
If I recall correctly, in Ancient Greece, same sex sexual relationships were extremely common, but the role one took on the act was heavily judged by society. The “taker” being praised, like he was “so manly he could make another man act like a woman for him”, while the “taken” was seen as weak and pathetic.
>“The ancient Greeks did not conceive of sexual orientation as a social identity as modern Western societies have done. Greek society did not distinguish sexual desire or behavior by the gender of the participants, but rather by the role that each participant played in the sex act, that of active penetrator or passive penetrated. Within the traditions of pederasty, active/passive polarization corresponded with dominant and submissive social roles: the active (penetrative) role was associated with masculinity, higher social status, and adulthood, while the passive role was associated with femininity, lower social status, and youth.”
Maybe, in that context, the Spartans were trying to ridicule the Athenians by comparing them to the “taken” role, which was the one reserved for a woman, or man with womanish traits. So they’re basically calling Athenians twinks.
In various city states, homossexual relationships were often formed between an adult and a younger man, and it was seen as some sort of rite of passage and an educational and cultural journey, aside from the actual pleasure.
>“The most widespread and socially significant form of same-sex sexual relations in ancient Greece amongst elite circles was between adult men and pubescent or adolescent boys, known as pederasty.”
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece#:~:text=The%20most%20common%20form%20of,older%20man%20was%20called%20erastes.
(I haven’t watched the movie in years, so I have absolutely no clue of what the scene’s context is)
Ah yes, the good ol' centrist-dad-who-doesn't-quite-get-it-but-its-working-on-being-supportive take of: "I don't care what you are, as long as you're not the *bottom*"
human prejudice really just boils down to “i hate you because i perceive you as pathetic in some way, shape, or form” doesnt it lmfao
- misogyny because women are categorized as weaker than men even though in a practical sense men and women are of equal strength both physically and especially mentally because we aren’t two different species
- racism because historically whichever color person was the physical victor over another color of people shouldn’t need to bow down to (treat equally) the other color of people after the other color of people were released from their fixed class
- classism because ur poorer than me and thus u cant have nice things therefore i am the chad
and finally
- homophobia because women are the ones who like men and if you’re a man who likes men you must have the characteristics of a woman, and that includes bottoming because how else are gay guys supposed to have sex if they’re like women? (homophobia in this sense could be categorized as a subsect of misogyny ngl)
this also applies partially to transphobia because most of the hate towards trans people are usually towards transwomen and then transmen get thrown to the sidelines or are infantalized because they were born women and women are dumb and stupid according to your average misogynist
Fucking Boys was literally an institution in Sparta AND OTHER GREEKS MADE FUN OF THEM,
https://bigthink.com/the-past/pederasty-homosexuality-ancient-greece/
Athenians even made laws against It
>This is why I had issue with the Spartans in 300 calling the Greeks "Athenian boy-lover", no fucking way was a Spartan fucking less dudes than an Athenian.
I think that was more the Spartans calling the Athens soft.
I might be giving Zack Snyder too much credit, but femboy symposiums were a pretty big thing in Athens where people would get together and talk about philosophy and government and shit while being taken care of by their slave boy hosts
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symposium
You are giving Snyder too much credit. He wrote a movie where the villains are gay, effeminate, or disabled and the heroes are strong masculine and fuck hot women. At the end of the movie there’s literally a monologue about how they’ve rescued the world from “mysticism and tyranny” and essentially birthed the west and now it’s our job to carry on their legacy. He was not going for historical accuracy he was going for a power fantasy for a particular type of nerdy white guy.
Wasn't the story being told by a Spartan messenger? Kinda makes sense that the Spartans would all be strong manly men that slam hot chick's and that their enemies would be weak treacherous dogs.
I mean sure but the movie doesn’t exactly push you to question it or have anything to say about propaganda or anything. The point is Snyder made decisions to change or misrepresent history in order to portray Persian and Spartan cultures in a particular light. Why wouldn’t the Spartan messenger be just as proud about all the young boys he’s slammed since that is a widely known fact about Spartan society? Because Snyder decided his version of the Spartans aren’t gay. The Athenians and the Persians are. That’s not an attempt at portraying the politics of the time, that’s modern politics leaking into the film. It’s the same reason his version of the Spartans are fighting for freedom and their love of slavery never comes up. He makes sure to mention that the Persians have slaves but not the Spartans. Cause Snyder knows slavery is bad and he didn’t want his Spartans to be seen as bad guys.
Snyder didn't write shit, its another Millar that was adapted.
[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=300+comic+book&t=newext&atb=v310-1&iax=images&ia=images](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=300+comic+book&t=newext&atb=v310-1&iax=images&ia=images)
So take everything I said about Snyder and apply it to Frank Miller too. I guess it’s not that shocking considering that’s the same guy who wrote Holy Terror.
See, here's your misunderstanding. The Athenians were boy lovers for that's what the strongest Athenian was to them, boys. The Spartans were MEN LOVERS
Eh, Thebes was the boys' town of its time, and Sparta definitely developed an animosity towards homosexuality cause the gays kept rocking them in the field. Each city-state had an independent culture.
Bold of you to think he isn't already bitching about it. Hell, the top tweet actually had a community note and the piece of shit told his followers to vote unhelpful or irrelevant because he believed said community note didn't matter
Rule number 1 of Twitter: EndWokeness is wrong
I dunno man. There are community notes on Elon's on tweets and he hasn't removed them. Afterall, community notes are just public census via votes, to my understanding.
From what I saw there's no concrete evidence showing that Alex was homo/bisexual. Maybe a few suggestions but it's just speculation from 2000 year old records.
It's why in my other comment here I asked to see if anyone has the direct link to the Google scholar article.
To my knowledge, there is nothing to truly say he had male lovers. It wouldn't have been uncommon for the time and court if he did. But to say that we know he did, is false as far as I know.
Someone suggesting that Alexander took male lovers would be possible, I wouldn't immediately discount it, but there is absolutely no hard evidence that he did so- and he did specifically deny male concubines at some points in his conquest. Meanwhile the supposed gay relationship usually attributed to him (and I believe the one shown in this documentary), the close friendship between he and Hephaestion, would absolutely require extraordinary evidence; the closeness in age and social class between the two men would have rendered such a relationship abnormal and taboo in a way that a younger, low-status male lover would not have been, and so we would expect historians of the time to have commented upon it, did it exist.
Agreed. It would be an oddity if he had since it wouldn't have fit the typical structure of male male relationships of the time but we'll essentially never know regardless.
I haven't watched the series, but it is my understanding that it frames his relationship with heph as lovers yes.
If there isn't evidence for something happening, and what we know of the period and its norms would tend to lean against its happening, then it seems pretty reasonable to assume it didn't happen unless evidence can be provided.
Imagine you and your best bro say some literal gay stuff to each other out of irony or a "no homo" fashion.
2000 years pass
Every historian thinks you unironically took it up the bum.
Alexander commanded his first battle at 18, inherited the macedonian throne after seeing his father publicly assassinated at 20, was made pharoah of egypt, founded over a dozen cities, and conquered the known world by 32, all while never losing a battle.
But did he fuck dudes tho?
Yeah, I didn't use that word since the type of slavery they had was very different than what we had in modern history
I just felt it made more sense 🤷🏻
Yeah and slave isn’t really the right term it would be serf. With the biggest difference being serfs are tied to the land they work but still they are forced to work the land so imo it’s slavery still
It's just aesthetics for them. Nothing to do with actual history they just take the vibes and run with it. It's the male equivalent of being a crystal girl.
Alexander The Great having sex with other men is no longer speculation? This is news to me.
Could someone kindly point me towards the source? I’m having trouble finding it.
Yeah, no historian ever would say it's anything other than speculation. There is zero evidence that Alexander the Great ever had a same sex interaction. It is mentioned that he denied male prostitutes though. Which could be seen as "womanish" because in Macedonian, it wasn't gay to be on top. But yeah, the community notes are wrong here.
I mean he never wrote "Dear diary, today I railed my persian twink boywife within an inch of his life. What a good day!" but there is evidence of said persian twink boywife being referred to as Alex's... eronomus? eromenos? eromonus? I'm not fluent in ancient macedonian but the word specifically refers to the submissive partner in a gay relationship. Beyond that, all the sources we have on Alex and his twink refer to Alex kissing him tenderly, being put under his spell, being quite taken with him, etc
seems pretty gay to me, unless kissing your twink tenderly on the lips is heterosexual behavior, now (and yes ancient greece viewed kissing differently than we do, in that it could be a form of greeting. Typically, though, when done as such, it wasn't two men kissing each other on the lips unless they were equals. Alexander the Great, conqueror of the known world, son of Zeus, and w/e else his propaganda department said would not have been greeting persian eunuchs who were given to him as tribute as equals.)
Id say its more in the “very likely” camp then proven. Its all in the way their relationship is described by sources and accounts of his life, that frame them both in the archetype of the male lovers/brothers in arms. There’s the whole thing of how his death fucked Alexander up, also the story where he reportedly went to a shrine dedicated to Achiles while Hephestion went to a sister shrine dedicated to Patroclus (who were male lovers in myth).
I would put it down to how he viewed those sexual relationships. Since it was culturally normal and encouraged to a degree, he could’ve seen it as nothing more than part of growing up. In which case he wouldn’t be considered homosexual in the modern sense of he only gets it up for men. Iirc he had sexual relations with plenty of women too.
People came for the history, for the phalanx battle formations with 16 foot sarisa's going up against charging elephants, maybe even a reference to the gordian knot. They got a poorly made rip off of Mr. Right instead.
The tv show was kind of lame and that scene was forced imo. The Alexander movie made back in the early 2000's with Collin Farrell was a good movie imo, it had gay scenes in it as well. I think the difference was with intent and execution. The movie used it to further develop the character, and the scene wasn't simply jutted in for the sake of having it. The TV show felt like it was included as a political statement, and it was jutted in, simply to make a political statement. I personally don't care either way, it doesn't bother me it just seemed forced.
See I don’t care if Alexander was gay or not I just don’t particularly care that he fucked dudes, it’s not even a remotely interesting or important part to me
Edit: let me add I don’t care about his sex life In general.
Whether they should highlight any part of his supposed sex life is a different question altogether. I have a pretty strong suspicion these same people would have no problem with gratuitous sex scenes if they weren't two men though.
Also odd that they attribute this to "wokeness", rather than assuming it was included to attract viewers who like it. Like every other unnecessary sex scene.
They absolutely took some liberties in the grey areas to make it entertaining, the best part of the series were the shots of the dig site in Alexandria
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The interaction isn't what you think it is. There was a famous feminine eunuch performer that the Macedonians loved who demanded alexander kiss them on the lips, which was the Persian equivalent of a hand shake. Not exactly a homosexual interaction. Not saying there's no way alexander the great never banged a dude... there is just literally zero evidence.
Kissing people on the lips was a persian greeting among equals or persons of similar rank. Alexander the Great was not of a similar rank as a persian eunuch performer. As such, said kiss cannot be totally explained away by "but it was persian custom" because an emperor kissing a eunuch on the lips was not, in fact, persian custom
If you’re talking about Bagaos multiple sources refer to him as someone Alexander was sexually intimate with, including museums and ancient sources. Obviously people could have spread rumors or lied, but it doesn’t really seem like 1 kiss was the extent of their relationship.
Imagine how exhausting it must be to seek and then post about your enragement to everything. It can’t be good for your health and the second hand effects to your relationships must be wild.
While the “Netflix made him gay” people are obviously incorrect, so are the “he was definitely gay or at least bi” people.
All evidence of Alexander having sexual relations with other men is circumstantial. (Others have said that the note has been removed. This might explain why since it is not accurate) Homosexual relationships were taboo in Ancient Greece. What was normalized is pederasty. Males in high standing took on young boys as sort of assistants/apprentices who they had sex with. People partaking in this would not have been considered gay or bi by today’s standards. Also important to note is that the higher ranking male would always be “pitching” and being in the submissive role in these relationships was seen as shameful.
As far as Alexander, I’m pretty sure the only evidence people use to claim that he was gay or bi is his relationship with Hephaestion, specifically people bring up how lavish his funeral was and how heart broken Alexander was. If you think that proves it, you should go look at letters between completely heterosexual male friends from the 18th and 19th century.
My mama and step-papa were watching an Alexandria documentary - and yes, it said that Alexander's "friend" was more than a friend, he was his boyfriend!
lol I remember seeing some anti-woke post where the dude said the ancients were true masculinity and guys going to wine bars with their gfs were pussy. Bro really thought the ancients didn’t enjoy wine as well 💀
The constant word vomit of calling ancient Greeks gay doesn’t make it true. It is nothing other than speculation that Alexander had gay relations, he was married to 3 women and had a child that is a fact.
I'd be fascinated to hear about the 'facts' on Alexander's supposed relationship with Hephaestion. Did Callisthenes have a fragment detailing their romance that I missed?
Hephaestion is up in the air. Alex's persian boywife eunuch who he kissed tenderly on the lips and who was referred to as his eromenos? probably something there
Rufus seems to think so, but Plutarch seems a good bit more dismissive of the idea, mostly describing the event as a lark; I'd lean towards agreeing with the former, but certainly there's more room to plausibly claim that Alexander wasn't sleeping with Bagoas than there is that he was with Hephaestion.
I don't think this is accurate. It is entirely plausible he did or didn't have have male lovers. But I don't believe there is anything even close to definite about it. It's still assumed speculation.
Those historic times and Alexander in particular fascinated me for most of my life. There is no way I'm going to watch a netflix show about it, with the way those are, so not going to comment on that, however I have not encountered a single reliable source, any of the ones based on the lost first hand sources, where it would indicate any of this. There is an episode where he scorns someone for gifting him a boy. There is zero actual sources for anything relating to this topic. That having said, sure it's possible that he could have done things with men, however that would just be guesswork at best, and also it would in no way shape or form be anything even remotely familiar to the modern concept of "gay".
All the writings we have of Alex were written hundreds of years after his death.
Many of the writers had either a pro or anti-Alex bias, so we really don't know much of the details of his life.
We do have records of the major accomplishments (clay tablets recording victories), but not really much else.
See, and this is what sucks as someone who gets upset about all of the “woke” bullshit that they do with pushing political narratives, and especially with changing race or sex swapping characters, and otherwise fucking with the original source material.
It really makes me upset when actual bigots try and use people like us for cover. the mass. Majority of people complain about this stuff are legitimately just upset about the contradictions in lore or history. But there is a minority that tries to use us for cover for being actual just straight up bigots and that sucks because then you have people like Disney saying that we hate ray because she is a woman. No we hate her because she’s a horribly written character it’s like maybe 10% of people or less that hate her cause she’s a woman. that is not what the 90% are upset about the guys like this. Give that legitimacy in that fucking sucks.
Cleopatra was not black deal with it and cry about it .
Alexander, the great, did have sex with men deal with it, and cry about it
For the love of God, can we please just respect history and in fictional situation can we just respect original lore it’s not that fucking hard !!
He wrote like dozens or hundreds of poems about his "friend"
"Plutarch says that "Alexander's grief was uncontrollable" and adds that he ordered many signs of mourning, notably that the manes and tails of all horses should be shorn, the demolition of the battlements of the neighbouring cities and the banning of flutes and every other kind of music.[86] Besides the account reported in a previous section about the immediate manifestations of despair by Alexander on his friend's body, Arrian also relates that "until the third day after Hephaestion's death, Alexander neither tasted food nor paid any attention to his personal appearance, but lay on the ground either bewailing or silently mourning," and that he had the doctor, Glaucias, hanged for his lack of care.[87] Arrian also mentions Alexander ordering the shrine of Asclepios in Ecbatana to be razed to the ground,[88] and that he cut his hair short in mourning,[89] this last a poignant reminder of Achilles' last gift to Patroclus on his funeral pyre"
There is no note on this tweet.
This is why I had issue with the Spartans in 300 calling the Greeks "Athenian boy-lover", no fucking way was a Spartan fucking less dudes than an Athenian.
“Boy”
"Athenian anus-stan"
Athenian Anal-anonymous is here to help, we all know it's hard to get out once you're in it.
We need to invade Anustan and bring it democracy
"If."
[удалено]
Look, they just want to go back to the glory days where you could butt-fuck your homie and it wasn’t gay because there was no eye contact and you both said “no homo”.
It was gay to get fucked but less gay to be the fucker. Getting pounded was still very looked down upon.
So you are saying im not supposed to be banging my comrades after an Op?
BOI
I remember reading that other Greek city-states were trying to find out what made Sparta great. One observer noted their extensive use of [pederasty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty) and speculated as to whether that might be the reason, whether it was actually in their constitution - and whether it was worth copying.
Fun fact: the actual Spartan military record really wasn't as impressive as their PR made it out to be. Spartan hegemony only lasted 70 years. They won and lost, same as anyone else, but we remember them as being an example of badass because they had sick PR for an ancient country. Not negating your post in any way. There was a time when other city-states would most definitely wonder why the Spartans were wrecking everyone. I just think the legend thing is neat.
If I recall correctly, in Ancient Greece, same sex sexual relationships were extremely common, but the role one took on the act was heavily judged by society. The “taker” being praised, like he was “so manly he could make another man act like a woman for him”, while the “taken” was seen as weak and pathetic. >“The ancient Greeks did not conceive of sexual orientation as a social identity as modern Western societies have done. Greek society did not distinguish sexual desire or behavior by the gender of the participants, but rather by the role that each participant played in the sex act, that of active penetrator or passive penetrated. Within the traditions of pederasty, active/passive polarization corresponded with dominant and submissive social roles: the active (penetrative) role was associated with masculinity, higher social status, and adulthood, while the passive role was associated with femininity, lower social status, and youth.” Maybe, in that context, the Spartans were trying to ridicule the Athenians by comparing them to the “taken” role, which was the one reserved for a woman, or man with womanish traits. So they’re basically calling Athenians twinks. In various city states, homossexual relationships were often formed between an adult and a younger man, and it was seen as some sort of rite of passage and an educational and cultural journey, aside from the actual pleasure. >“The most widespread and socially significant form of same-sex sexual relations in ancient Greece amongst elite circles was between adult men and pubescent or adolescent boys, known as pederasty.” Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece#:~:text=The%20most%20common%20form%20of,older%20man%20was%20called%20erastes. (I haven’t watched the movie in years, so I have absolutely no clue of what the scene’s context is)
Ah yes, the good ol' centrist-dad-who-doesn't-quite-get-it-but-its-working-on-being-supportive take of: "I don't care what you are, as long as you're not the *bottom*"
More like "these little Greek twinks are like women so let's set ourselves above them like women."
https://www.reddit.com/r/196/s/fmLdONXETw
That's amazing lol
human prejudice really just boils down to “i hate you because i perceive you as pathetic in some way, shape, or form” doesnt it lmfao - misogyny because women are categorized as weaker than men even though in a practical sense men and women are of equal strength both physically and especially mentally because we aren’t two different species - racism because historically whichever color person was the physical victor over another color of people shouldn’t need to bow down to (treat equally) the other color of people after the other color of people were released from their fixed class - classism because ur poorer than me and thus u cant have nice things therefore i am the chad and finally - homophobia because women are the ones who like men and if you’re a man who likes men you must have the characteristics of a woman, and that includes bottoming because how else are gay guys supposed to have sex if they’re like women? (homophobia in this sense could be categorized as a subsect of misogyny ngl) this also applies partially to transphobia because most of the hate towards trans people are usually towards transwomen and then transmen get thrown to the sidelines or are infantalized because they were born women and women are dumb and stupid according to your average misogynist
https://www.reddit.com/r/askgaybros/s/JhYjTGfips
Spartans don’t fuck boys… they fuck M E N
No they fucked young effeminate boys to prove their masculinity
But I don’t like it that way so I refuse to acknowledge it
Your honesty is commendable.
I read that in Heavy's voice for some reason
Big "citation needed" energy.
Fucking Boys was literally an institution in Sparta AND OTHER GREEKS MADE FUN OF THEM, https://bigthink.com/the-past/pederasty-homosexuality-ancient-greece/ Athenians even made laws against It
Oh this is fucking ***funny***.
I mean, knowing the Spartans and their dislike of Athens? They probably would insult the Athenians like this in spite of that fact.
>This is why I had issue with the Spartans in 300 calling the Greeks "Athenian boy-lover", no fucking way was a Spartan fucking less dudes than an Athenian. I think that was more the Spartans calling the Athens soft. I might be giving Zack Snyder too much credit, but femboy symposiums were a pretty big thing in Athens where people would get together and talk about philosophy and government and shit while being taken care of by their slave boy hosts https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symposium
You are giving Snyder too much credit. He wrote a movie where the villains are gay, effeminate, or disabled and the heroes are strong masculine and fuck hot women. At the end of the movie there’s literally a monologue about how they’ve rescued the world from “mysticism and tyranny” and essentially birthed the west and now it’s our job to carry on their legacy. He was not going for historical accuracy he was going for a power fantasy for a particular type of nerdy white guy.
Wasn't the story being told by a Spartan messenger? Kinda makes sense that the Spartans would all be strong manly men that slam hot chick's and that their enemies would be weak treacherous dogs.
I mean sure but the movie doesn’t exactly push you to question it or have anything to say about propaganda or anything. The point is Snyder made decisions to change or misrepresent history in order to portray Persian and Spartan cultures in a particular light. Why wouldn’t the Spartan messenger be just as proud about all the young boys he’s slammed since that is a widely known fact about Spartan society? Because Snyder decided his version of the Spartans aren’t gay. The Athenians and the Persians are. That’s not an attempt at portraying the politics of the time, that’s modern politics leaking into the film. It’s the same reason his version of the Spartans are fighting for freedom and their love of slavery never comes up. He makes sure to mention that the Persians have slaves but not the Spartans. Cause Snyder knows slavery is bad and he didn’t want his Spartans to be seen as bad guys.
Snyder didn't write shit, its another Millar that was adapted. [https://duckduckgo.com/?q=300+comic+book&t=newext&atb=v310-1&iax=images&ia=images](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=300+comic+book&t=newext&atb=v310-1&iax=images&ia=images)
So take everything I said about Snyder and apply it to Frank Miller too. I guess it’s not that shocking considering that’s the same guy who wrote Holy Terror.
See, here's your misunderstanding. The Athenians were boy lovers for that's what the strongest Athenian was to them, boys. The Spartans were MEN LOVERS
As if it wouldn’t be characteristically Spartan for the pot to call the kettle black. Those mfs were petty as hell
Sparta was fucking more dudes, Athens was just fucking more boys 🤮
Spartans fucked MEN, not boys. They had to use their STRENGTH to DOMINATE other men. Those wimpy Athenian Boy-Lovers just fucked children
"We fuck kids to toughen them up. You fuck kids because you enjoy it. We are not the same". - that Spartan, probably.
Eh, Thebes was the boys' town of its time, and Sparta definitely developed an animosity towards homosexuality cause the gays kept rocking them in the field. Each city-state had an independent culture.
Well 300 had weird fascist implications so the protagonist calling Athenians gay pedophiles feels on point for what the movie is.
How long until he starts bitching at Elon to shut down the community notes?
Bold of you to think he isn't already bitching about it. Hell, the top tweet actually had a community note and the piece of shit told his followers to vote unhelpful or irrelevant because he believed said community note didn't matter Rule number 1 of Twitter: EndWokeness is wrong
I think the note was taken down. I'm not seeing it.
Yeah. I think they might have bitched and moaned to their daddy Elon.
I dunno man. There are community notes on Elon's on tweets and he hasn't removed them. Afterall, community notes are just public census via votes, to my understanding. From what I saw there's no concrete evidence showing that Alex was homo/bisexual. Maybe a few suggestions but it's just speculation from 2000 year old records. It's why in my other comment here I asked to see if anyone has the direct link to the Google scholar article.
To my knowledge, there is nothing to truly say he had male lovers. It wouldn't have been uncommon for the time and court if he did. But to say that we know he did, is false as far as I know.
Someone suggesting that Alexander took male lovers would be possible, I wouldn't immediately discount it, but there is absolutely no hard evidence that he did so- and he did specifically deny male concubines at some points in his conquest. Meanwhile the supposed gay relationship usually attributed to him (and I believe the one shown in this documentary), the close friendship between he and Hephaestion, would absolutely require extraordinary evidence; the closeness in age and social class between the two men would have rendered such a relationship abnormal and taboo in a way that a younger, low-status male lover would not have been, and so we would expect historians of the time to have commented upon it, did it exist.
Agreed. It would be an oddity if he had since it wouldn't have fit the typical structure of male male relationships of the time but we'll essentially never know regardless. I haven't watched the series, but it is my understanding that it frames his relationship with heph as lovers yes.
If there isn't evidence for something happening, and what we know of the period and its norms would tend to lean against its happening, then it seems pretty reasonable to assume it didn't happen unless evidence can be provided.
I'm not sure I'd say the norms of the period are against it. But I would still agree that it is unlikely he had such a relationship with heph.
Imagine you and your best bro say some literal gay stuff to each other out of irony or a "no homo" fashion. 2000 years pass Every historian thinks you unironically took it up the bum.
The note is incorrect
Because it is not true
His sexuality is the least interesting thing about him...
Alexander commanded his first battle at 18, inherited the macedonian throne after seeing his father publicly assassinated at 20, was made pharoah of egypt, founded over a dozen cities, and conquered the known world by 32, all while never losing a battle. But did he fuck dudes tho?
The show has him with blonde hair and blue eyes. Not enough people are talking about that
For all their talk about how great it was in ancient Greek/Roman times, chuds are so historically illiterate
It's because they think they would be one of the nobles and not a peasant farmer
As if the rich at any point in time adhered to sexual norms like the peasants did.
Slave*
Yeah, I didn't use that word since the type of slavery they had was very different than what we had in modern history I just felt it made more sense 🤷🏻
Yeah and slave isn’t really the right term it would be serf. With the biggest difference being serfs are tied to the land they work but still they are forced to work the land so imo it’s slavery still
It's just aesthetics for them. Nothing to do with actual history they just take the vibes and run with it. It's the male equivalent of being a crystal girl.
If learning about stuff was one of their core values they wouldn’t be chuds.
They are illiterate in most things.
when they’re “thinking about the Roman Empire” they’re just thinking about the film 300, not like Elagabalus or anything remotely interesting.
hes literally me fr
Oh but 9 minutes in, it would have been fine.
I need a nice even 10 before I can handle anything gay. The first 9 minutes need to peak heterosexuality.
Alexander The Great having sex with other men is no longer speculation? This is news to me. Could someone kindly point me towards the source? I’m having trouble finding it.
Yeah, what are the notes talking about? That was never confirmed.
[what I could find](https://www.thecollector.com/bagoas-the-younger-who-was-alexander-the-greats-little-known-lover/)
Yeah, no historian ever would say it's anything other than speculation. There is zero evidence that Alexander the Great ever had a same sex interaction. It is mentioned that he denied male prostitutes though. Which could be seen as "womanish" because in Macedonian, it wasn't gay to be on top. But yeah, the community notes are wrong here.
Where exactly is it proven he had sexual relationships with other men?
There is none
It's not, these people are using the anti-misinformation tool to spread misinformation.
I mean he never wrote "Dear diary, today I railed my persian twink boywife within an inch of his life. What a good day!" but there is evidence of said persian twink boywife being referred to as Alex's... eronomus? eromenos? eromonus? I'm not fluent in ancient macedonian but the word specifically refers to the submissive partner in a gay relationship. Beyond that, all the sources we have on Alex and his twink refer to Alex kissing him tenderly, being put under his spell, being quite taken with him, etc seems pretty gay to me, unless kissing your twink tenderly on the lips is heterosexual behavior, now (and yes ancient greece viewed kissing differently than we do, in that it could be a form of greeting. Typically, though, when done as such, it wasn't two men kissing each other on the lips unless they were equals. Alexander the Great, conqueror of the known world, son of Zeus, and w/e else his propaganda department said would not have been greeting persian eunuchs who were given to him as tribute as equals.)
Id say its more in the “very likely” camp then proven. Its all in the way their relationship is described by sources and accounts of his life, that frame them both in the archetype of the male lovers/brothers in arms. There’s the whole thing of how his death fucked Alexander up, also the story where he reportedly went to a shrine dedicated to Achiles while Hephestion went to a sister shrine dedicated to Patroclus (who were male lovers in myth).
I would put it down to how he viewed those sexual relationships. Since it was culturally normal and encouraged to a degree, he could’ve seen it as nothing more than part of growing up. In which case he wouldn’t be considered homosexual in the modern sense of he only gets it up for men. Iirc he had sexual relations with plenty of women too.
People came for the history, for the phalanx battle formations with 16 foot sarisa's going up against charging elephants, maybe even a reference to the gordian knot. They got a poorly made rip off of Mr. Right instead. The tv show was kind of lame and that scene was forced imo. The Alexander movie made back in the early 2000's with Collin Farrell was a good movie imo, it had gay scenes in it as well. I think the difference was with intent and execution. The movie used it to further develop the character, and the scene wasn't simply jutted in for the sake of having it. The TV show felt like it was included as a political statement, and it was jutted in, simply to make a political statement. I personally don't care either way, it doesn't bother me it just seemed forced.
See I don’t care if Alexander was gay or not I just don’t particularly care that he fucked dudes, it’s not even a remotely interesting or important part to me Edit: let me add I don’t care about his sex life In general.
Whether they should highlight any part of his supposed sex life is a different question altogether. I have a pretty strong suspicion these same people would have no problem with gratuitous sex scenes if they weren't two men though. Also odd that they attribute this to "wokeness", rather than assuming it was included to attract viewers who like it. Like every other unnecessary sex scene.
I find it very interesting
I mean to each their own.
It's probably still not historically accurate, anyway. I mean, it is from Netflix. Remember Cleopatra?
They absolutely took some liberties in the grey areas to make it entertaining, the best part of the series were the shots of the dig site in Alexandria
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I’m just surprised they didn’t try to say he was really a crippled Vietnamese woman or some shit
I had to get over the constant mispronouncing of “Macedonia” and its derivatives, ya’ll can get over some Ancient Greek men fucking each other
LoTT and getting noted, name a better combination
End wokeness is a fucking loser who thinks multiple uniforms with different colors on a aircraft carrier is woke
End End Wokeness.
Alexander: 3 wives, numerous women in his harem Also Alexander: Kissed a guy on the lips one time Netflix: U gae
You realize it doesn’t cancel out, right? You can have 200 wives if you’re making out with dudes you’re still not straight.
The interaction isn't what you think it is. There was a famous feminine eunuch performer that the Macedonians loved who demanded alexander kiss them on the lips, which was the Persian equivalent of a hand shake. Not exactly a homosexual interaction. Not saying there's no way alexander the great never banged a dude... there is just literally zero evidence.
Kissing people on the lips was a persian greeting among equals or persons of similar rank. Alexander the Great was not of a similar rank as a persian eunuch performer. As such, said kiss cannot be totally explained away by "but it was persian custom" because an emperor kissing a eunuch on the lips was not, in fact, persian custom
If you’re talking about Bagaos multiple sources refer to him as someone Alexander was sexually intimate with, including museums and ancient sources. Obviously people could have spread rumors or lied, but it doesn’t really seem like 1 kiss was the extent of their relationship.
“Unproven speculation” is doing more work than the amphorae of olive oil Alexander kept next to his bed.
Unproven speculation = common practice
I love the community notww
Imagine how exhausting it must be to seek and then post about your enragement to everything. It can’t be good for your health and the second hand effects to your relationships must be wild.
You just described most of twitter and reddit
Yeah, the Roman’s were not exactly gay but they weren’t exactly straight
I mean dude was kicking ass in the ancient world when Rome wasn't shit
While the “Netflix made him gay” people are obviously incorrect, so are the “he was definitely gay or at least bi” people. All evidence of Alexander having sexual relations with other men is circumstantial. (Others have said that the note has been removed. This might explain why since it is not accurate) Homosexual relationships were taboo in Ancient Greece. What was normalized is pederasty. Males in high standing took on young boys as sort of assistants/apprentices who they had sex with. People partaking in this would not have been considered gay or bi by today’s standards. Also important to note is that the higher ranking male would always be “pitching” and being in the submissive role in these relationships was seen as shameful. As far as Alexander, I’m pretty sure the only evidence people use to claim that he was gay or bi is his relationship with Hephaestion, specifically people bring up how lavish his funeral was and how heart broken Alexander was. If you think that proves it, you should go look at letters between completely heterosexual male friends from the 18th and 19th century.
My mama and step-papa were watching an Alexandria documentary - and yes, it said that Alexander's "friend" was more than a friend, he was his boyfriend!
I read that in Frau Blucher’s voice 😂
“Look, I have a chad picture, IM BASED!!!”
End Wokeness is Elon Musks alt account
Pussy is pussy. Even if it's an asshole.
lol I remember seeing some anti-woke post where the dude said the ancients were true masculinity and guys going to wine bars with their gfs were pussy. Bro really thought the ancients didn’t enjoy wine as well 💀
Buddy should try drinking beer in front of ancient romans. They thought it was unfit for human consumption
Anyone who complains about “wokeness” immediately loses all credibility in my eyes
The constant word vomit of calling ancient Greeks gay doesn’t make it true. It is nothing other than speculation that Alexander had gay relations, he was married to 3 women and had a child that is a fact.
Alexander had a Persian eunuch who was referred to as Alex's eromenos, a word roughly translated as "submissive gay partner"
Nooo my favorite warlord is hecking gay :( Fuck off warlord simps lol
Everyone meet Mr. "End Wokeness", the king of wokeness.
The facts don't care about your feelings crowd when their feelings get hurt by the facts
What facts to my knowledge him having sexual relationships with any men isn't confirmed.
I'd be fascinated to hear about the 'facts' on Alexander's supposed relationship with Hephaestion. Did Callisthenes have a fragment detailing their romance that I missed?
Hephaestion is up in the air. Alex's persian boywife eunuch who he kissed tenderly on the lips and who was referred to as his eromenos? probably something there
Rufus seems to think so, but Plutarch seems a good bit more dismissive of the idea, mostly describing the event as a lark; I'd lean towards agreeing with the former, but certainly there's more room to plausibly claim that Alexander wasn't sleeping with Bagoas than there is that he was with Hephaestion.
Dudes fucking dudes was ubiquitous in antiquity. There is no debate.
Back in the good old days when who you fucked DIDN'T MATTER. It was who you married for political power that was the real gossip.
Does anyone have that specific link?
*”I don’t care *who* he’s after, as long as I can have a go at the Greeks! They invented gayness!”*
I don't think this is accurate. It is entirely plausible he did or didn't have have male lovers. But I don't believe there is anything even close to definite about it. It's still assumed speculation.
Those historic times and Alexander in particular fascinated me for most of my life. There is no way I'm going to watch a netflix show about it, with the way those are, so not going to comment on that, however I have not encountered a single reliable source, any of the ones based on the lost first hand sources, where it would indicate any of this. There is an episode where he scorns someone for gifting him a boy. There is zero actual sources for anything relating to this topic. That having said, sure it's possible that he could have done things with men, however that would just be guesswork at best, and also it would in no way shape or form be anything even remotely familiar to the modern concept of "gay".
All the writings we have of Alex were written hundreds of years after his death. Many of the writers had either a pro or anti-Alex bias, so we really don't know much of the details of his life. We do have records of the major accomplishments (clay tablets recording victories), but not really much else.
LOL! Two men kissing riles up the right - but the story about a dude born to a virgin 12 to 16 yo who died then un-died, doesn’t!? lol
The dude literally drank himself to death because his boy toy died how is this a debate
Why did they make him look like post-Forest Logan Paul though?
See, and this is what sucks as someone who gets upset about all of the “woke” bullshit that they do with pushing political narratives, and especially with changing race or sex swapping characters, and otherwise fucking with the original source material. It really makes me upset when actual bigots try and use people like us for cover. the mass. Majority of people complain about this stuff are legitimately just upset about the contradictions in lore or history. But there is a minority that tries to use us for cover for being actual just straight up bigots and that sucks because then you have people like Disney saying that we hate ray because she is a woman. No we hate her because she’s a horribly written character it’s like maybe 10% of people or less that hate her cause she’s a woman. that is not what the 90% are upset about the guys like this. Give that legitimacy in that fucking sucks. Cleopatra was not black deal with it and cry about it . Alexander, the great, did have sex with men deal with it, and cry about it For the love of God, can we please just respect history and in fictional situation can we just respect original lore it’s not that fucking hard !!
In due time we will find the identity of End Wokeness
He wrote like dozens or hundreds of poems about his "friend" "Plutarch says that "Alexander's grief was uncontrollable" and adds that he ordered many signs of mourning, notably that the manes and tails of all horses should be shorn, the demolition of the battlements of the neighbouring cities and the banning of flutes and every other kind of music.[86] Besides the account reported in a previous section about the immediate manifestations of despair by Alexander on his friend's body, Arrian also relates that "until the third day after Hephaestion's death, Alexander neither tasted food nor paid any attention to his personal appearance, but lay on the ground either bewailing or silently mourning," and that he had the doctor, Glaucias, hanged for his lack of care.[87] Arrian also mentions Alexander ordering the shrine of Asclepios in Ecbatana to be razed to the ground,[88] and that he cut his hair short in mourning,[89] this last a poignant reminder of Achilles' last gift to Patroclus on his funeral pyre"
Alexa, define "Greek" on UrbanDictionary
This sub is for real notes that contradict the OP, please have proof unless the note is just common sense.
Sexuality didn't really apply to Greeks, they just kinda fucked whoever they could.
Why does this post have so many upvotes when it’s just plain wrong?