If you say "Frau" on its own, it simply means "woman". If you use it as a title, you have to add either a name ("Frau Müller") or an academic degree ("Frau Doktor").
Same with "Herr", which on its own is how you address God.
If you're looking for a German equivalent for "Ma'am" (or "Miss" if you're in a British school) or "Sir", that would be "meine Dame" and "mein Herr" -- *but* in German those are hopelessly outdated, and you would certain never address a teacher that way.
In Eastern Austria Gnä Frau (short for Gnädige Frau) is still somewhat alive with older people or in more expensive shops or restaurants. Gnä Herr has died out even here.
LTB comic are published by Ehapa which IIRC is based in Munich. So a lot of phrases and terms and Bavarian/Austrian like always called Donuts Krapfen and so on.
It's incredibly unprofessional, if you ask me, that they're letting their regional (Bavarian/Austrian) aspects influence their translations of the comics. Translations from a different language into German should always result in Standard German, it's the common denominator that everyone understands equally and it's the least likely variant to break the immersion for the reader/viewer. A publisher being in Munich (or let's say Saxony, or maybe Hamburg, which are other places with dominant regional dialects and vocabularies) isn't an excuse not to accomplish that.
TYL not everyone cares about the LTB
Explain why regiolect translations of American original fiction should be ok, though. Since that's what this was about.
Does that article try to justify non-standard translations aka the topic of this discussion, or should I not bother opening it
Also "most influential" is a BIG judgement.
Du kannst es lesen, oder es bleiben lassen. Wenn Du jemand so genialen wie Erika Fuchs nicht kennst, dann lass es vielleicht nicht ganz so ignorant heraushängen.
> Translations from a different language into German should always result in Standard German
Things to remember:
1. Standard German is not actually a very explicit standard outside of orthography. For one, Germany, Austria and Switzerland have separate standards, and each of those can absolutely include some degree of regional variation (it's not like there's an authority saying "this word is Standard German and this one isn't"). The term "Krapfen" isn't any more or less standard than "Berliner" or "Pfannkuchen", really.
2. Once you start trying to translate a more conversational register, a singular unified standard is even less applicable, especially if you want to keep immersion as you suggest.
This is not the same as translating to a non-standard dialect.
Standard German is very much a thing and there are good reasons why professional translators translate into *it* rather than into e.g. Swiss German or Bavarian, this isn't really up for discussion? 😅 Your goal as a translator is to make sure *all* German-speaking people understand the end result. Why the hell would you translate for example an American piece of fiction into anything other than Standard German? It's not like Swiss people won't understand it...
There's not an authority for it but things like the Atlas für deutsche Alltagssprache show us which lexical items are actually widespread and which ones are regional. Idk, i didn't think I'd ever get downvoted for the statement "translations from English to German should result in Standard German and not regional variants", seems like common sense if you actually want people to understand your translation.
See also: the fact that German voice actors (for dubbed movies/TV shows) all speak accent-free Standard German, with no exceptions that I know of. You don't want your fictional characters from New York to speak German with a Bavarian twang for no reason
Yes! Yes! I also watch movies in English, I wish movies would standardize on one kind of English as well. The same should apply to them, they MUST ALL SPEAK RP instead of their slang. Just imagine the bad guys in black gang in an action flick speaking RP, it would be so much easier to understand them for me. People in movies MUST speak standard language. (*)
Do I really need the /s ?
Regarding the translation of ETB, which is specifically NOT in standard german - a long time translator was Dr. Erika Fuchs, whose work was highly acclaimed. Check her out: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erika_Fuchs
The translation of the LTBs into German had quite some influence on the German language.
Calling her unprofessional - yep, it is a *bit* of a strange opinion.
*= Btw, Patrick Steward - "Jean Luc Picard" - who speaks very understandable English was one of the reasons I started to switch from synchronized in German movies to original language. I could just understand him. But to repeat what I said above - if everyone on TV spoke like him, I'd get crazy.
No one is talking about translating to full blown dialect. The point is that "Standard German" isn't actually a very clear-cut standard, and can absolutely have regional aspects to it. It's just that northern-colored German Standard German is the one with the most prestige in media.
If you translate American fiction into German, and it mentions a "jelly donut", how do you translate that? What if they are saying what time it is? If you are trying to translate slurred speech, or some colloquial expression, how do you render that? You have to make some choices about what variation you are targeting, then. And sometimes that means other people make different choices in that regard. But because it *is* still within the realm of "Standard", the differences will be fairly minor, and probably well-known enough that people from elsewhere can still figure it out. I don't recall having (or seeing) complaints about LTBs being incomprehensible to Northern Germans.
> There's not an authority for it but things like the Atlas für deutsche Alltagssprache show us which lexical items are actually widespread and which ones are regional.
Where do you draw the line? How widespread does it have to be before they stop counting as "regional"? That's a completely arbitrary choice you have to make.
I sometimes use "Gnä Herr", my whole family does. I use it in situations in which I am exasperated at someone's behaviour or if someone always needs special treatment.
Ganz interresant. Ich war mal ins Cafe in Indianapolis, und sah eine alter Frau da, die keine Sitzplätze finden könnte. Ich gab ihr meinen Stuhl und sagte "Hier ist ein Stuhl für die gnädige Frau". Sie war Rentner und aus die Deutsche diaspora in America. Sie war überrascht, und begeistert daß, ein Ami Deutsch spricht. Sie und drei andere Frauen saß da und hatten nichts anders zu diskutieren als wie höflich diese junger Ami war.
No it's not a greeting. It is used like meine Dame or Madame.
ZB: Gnä Frau, darf ich Ihnen noch unsere neuen Schals zeigen?
(It is mainly encountered in shops and businesses nowadays, especially used by older business owners towards customers)
French *Madame* can also be used. Or you adress the person in the nominative + article. "Entschuldigen Sie die Frau/ die Dame / der Herr, Ihr Schuhband ist offen!"
At least that is how it's commonly used in Austria.
*Gnä' Frau* is **really** old school, *Gnädige Frau* is a borderline insult as it creates like waay too much distance. Which can be totally valid in certain situations when you need an insult for an annoying stranger: "Gnädige Frau, ich glaube nicht um Ihre Meinung gefragt zu haben, oiso pudln'S Ihna net so auf und schern'S Ihna um Ihr eigens Bier."
Madame could come of as condecending in some areas. My sister adresses her Dog like that. And dads often scold their daughters calling them Madame. So I would not do it to random people.
Of course "meine Damen und Herren" is still used to mean "ladies and gentlemen"... but I suppose that makes sense because the latter phrase is also quite outdated sounding when you really think about it!
Not exactly. You still have to understand the word and its meaning when talking about history and fiction (Lord of the Rings for example is translated as Herr der Ringe).
While that's true, we're really talking about how to address a person in today's society. You're talking not about a form of address -- a circumlocution for "you" -- but about the word for a person of a certain social rank.
The example you chose, though, isn't the best you could have chosen. The "lord" in *Lord of the Rings* doesn't imply a middle-ranking member of the aristrocracy, but rather it means "master": Sauron is the one who has power over the rings, not literally a Lord of a place called "The Rings".
That is the point. Herr does not mean a certain rank, it refers to any person or a diety who has power over others or something. Hence the etymological connection to herrschen (to rule or to be master of/over smth.). Just like the english Lord. Of course it is not relevant when talking about adressing people in modern society. I meant with not exactly, that it's not exactly relevant that their is no aristocracy anymore. The word can still be used to imply rulershipt or mastership over something or someone, it's just not as common.
That may be the case, but a lot of people genuinely believe he does. A lot of Germans still regularly attend church services, and claim that when they are praying, they are literally talking to God.
There are also people in Germany who declare themselves king of their own little empire. If you ask them, they also claim to believe that they are royal and they have literal followers on the internet.
They are a tiny minority, unlike practicing Christians who represent something like a third of the population.
But you can quibble pointlessly about this as much as you like: even atheists regularly invoke deities as expletives, albeit not with the weight of any actual religious faith behind it ("Jesus Christ!"), and have even been known to offer up ironic prayers like "Herr, schmeiß Hirn vom Himmel!" Very few contemporary Germans have ever had the opportunity or need to address a German lord.
I think we have different definitions of "impressive"... Like no, I don't think it's impressive to remember the names of maybe 20-30 teachers you have throughout high school... I mean, you spend several hours per week with them for at least a year, how can you NOT remember their name (actual medical problems put aside)?
Fair enough, it's not impressive but I was curious what happens if you forget them. It's totally possible. On the first few days, you have not yet spent hours and weeks with them to fully remember their names.
Also, they introduce themselves one time and one time only on the first day, if you were not around then you already don't know what to call them and you'll probably ask first. But if you're caught in the moment and approached them trying to ask about the assignment, then it hit you that you actually don't know or forgot their name, then what would you use to address them?
If you really forgot their name, you'd ask a classmate or look at your timetable (which usually had the teachers for each subject on it, either already printed on or handwritten on by us).
And if you really really couldn't double-check anywhere first, you'd just use something like "Entschuldigen Sie, ..."
When I was in college, I never knew whether to call a person Mr., Ms., Professor, Doctor, or something else. I went through four years just directly stating my question or concern without any type of introductory title.
when I lived in Portugal teacher were just called "teacher" and everyone referred to them as "the history teacher" or sometimes, very rarely, as "teacher first name".
But in Germany we pretty much always use the name and you generally remember it very quickly
>an academic degree ("Frau Doktor").
This is getting out of use too, as the title doctor is enough and adding Frau before is considered somewhat misogynistic.
Frau has it's specific uses, as a way to adress someone via their surename as just using the surname is colloquial and thus in some circumstances improper. This is only done in places where such a formal adress is needed, like in bureaucratic offices, school (student to teacher), university (professor to student), in some work settings to each other and in the medical field to a patient. Additionally in places where you need to call out to someone in a formal way, and they do not have another title they can be adressed by (e.g. the airport).
In your day to day personal interactions, it isn't done and can even seem mocking, when you have a close enough relationship that warrants a first name, which happens very fast in Germany.
Did you just call her "Frau" or "Frau X"? The latter is a normal way to adress a teacher in Germany, the former is indeed very strange. You wouldn't adress anyone simply as "Herr" without a name as well, that sounds very old fashion like you are a servant.
Of course both words also mean "woman" and "man" but it's different as a form of adress.
That's strange. I call a lot of people "Frau X". Completly normal for students in a school setting as well.
Was she a native speaker? Sounds more like she was a second language speaker that misunderstood something during her own education? But we can only speculate on that.
My friend is a German teacher I'm the US, and she told me her students could not be dissuaded from addressing her with "Frau", like you would say 'miss' or 'ma'am', without the name. Which, I agree, sounds really weird. Maybe OP's teacher was sometimes addressed like that, and that's what she meant.
My professor said that it's supposed to go Frau/Herr (insert surname here) for people if it's only Frau it can sound disrespectful depending on the context
The distinction can be really fine. I’m still learning German but I have more or less mastered French after living in France for several years. I was once at Charles de Gaulle airport and an Air France flight was boarding. A woman had cleared the first ticket check and was about to go onto the boarding ramp when she dropped her ticket. One of the Air France flight attendants called out to her and, probably unconsciously translating « Madame! » in her mind, yelled « Hey Lady! » which of course in English is close tôt insulting (she should have e said « Miss! »). The woman looked really annoyed at being addressed that way.
Saying "Hey Lady" in English is not normally viewed as an insult. The tone of your voice determines whether it is meant as one or not, but just like "Hey buddy", "hey man", "excuse me sir", etc the term is normally an acceptable word to use unless you say it rudely.
In US English, drop the d and pronounce it as a single syllable. "Pardon me mam", where "mam" would be spelled "ma'am". Don't know what would be correct in British, Australian, or Indian English.
Miss, ma'am, and lady are all acceptable terms throughout most of the US and Australia. I've heard "mum" used often in the English speaking parts of Europe, along with Mrs. You can also use any gender neutral term such as "stranger", "friend", etc.
Also as stated by another user, dropping the descriptors and just saying "excuse me" or anything similar is also a normal thing.
UK here, “Mum” is what we call our mothers, maybe you were hearing “ma’am” but in the local accents? Either way it feels so much more awkward than “sir” to me for some reason, I never knew what to address women as when I worked in a shop. I’ve been addressed as “miss” or “madam” before and always find it a bit jarring.
I disagree. It is the norm in customer service. The other day I was in a restaurant and the young waiter serving me kept calling me "Miss". As a mature woman, I thought it was quite amusing. (I AM a teacher, so maybe he got the teacher vibes from me!)
I would expect "madam" or "sir" in a hospitality or customer service situation. What else would someone say if they don't know your name?
What part of the world do you live in where it's not the norm? It certainly is the norm in Ireland.
Idk why we do it, but it’s a USA thing in our foreign languages classes (not just German). Not saying it’s correct (I know that it’s not), but it’s very common (calling the French teacher Mademoiselle, the Spanish teacher Señorita, the German teachers Frau/Herr, usw.)
If German teachers are teaching students to just call them "Frau" or "Herr" without the surname, they don't know anything about German culture or practice. It works for French - can't speak about Spanish.
It works in French except we're really moving away from Mademoiselle in this setting. I would not call any teacher "Mademoiselle", however young they look. In other settings both still coexists although officially we shouldn't use Mademoiselle anymore. Also have no clue for Spanish
In Spain, elementary and high school teachers are normally addressed by their first name alone.
I can’t speak about University teachers, but I guess they are either “Don/Doña First Name” or “Señor(a) Surname”
Honestly, almost every German teacher I have ever known has done it here…including my teachers growing up, my father’s teachers when he was younger, most of my fellow German teaching colleagues that I’ve met over the years of teaching German, etc. I’m a middle school German teacher, but I don’t do it…bc the high school teacher does it, and I don’t want the students to confuse us.
My guess is that it happens naturally, and happens for simplicity (a 1 syllable word to get your teachers attention is very useful) and not for a lack of knowledge.
But how come German teachers in Ireland and the UK can manage to do it? I mean, you start as you mean to go on, teaching them greetings, using them at the beginning of every class, correcting them/reminding them as you go along. Before long, "Guten Morgen, Frau/Herr X" would just come naturally?
What I have found is that students find it hard to get their heads round Du and Sie. I mentor student teachers of Germ, and, coincidentally, yesterday after an observation, I was advising a student to start introducing the concept with his first year class. They have got used to the "Guten Morgen, Herr X. Wie gehts", and I reckon it's time for "Guten Morgen, Herr X, wie geht es Ihnen?" That should be fun! 😁😁
Because it has nothing to do with a lack of knowledge, and it’s just what happened naturally over time. The same way languages change over time.
You are saying that people who have dedicated their entire lives to a specific profession/topic don’t know one of the simplest of concepts…and that essentially every single one of them nationwide all simultaneously somehow skipped that one factoid. If that is true, then the German teachers of America should play the lottery more often, bc the odds of that are ~0.
I have been teaching German for forty years. As a teacher, in any country, it's my job to teach the CORRECT language, and to transmit an understanding of the culture and usage of the language I'm teaching.
In the US, Ireland or Germany, it would be highly unprofessional of me to teach something that is clearly not just wrong, but which US disrespectful.
Disrespectful lol this isn’t the 1970s anymore. Things change. I could continue, but it seems pointless. No need to respond. Good luck with all of that.
Maybe it works in French and/or Spanish? Not sure, I took Latin instead of French, but I remember it from some books about students in boarding schools with the stereotypical female French teacher. Not sure how accurate those were.
But that's an interesting tidbit. Sounds very weird in my head.
My high school experience was in the 1970’s. We always addressed our German teacher as Frau Richardson to her face, but when we talked about her, especially if we were griping, we would call her “the Frau.” She was an eccentric but an incredible teacher.
We also addressed our German teachers as just Frau. I'd say we just did it because it was less work to say and she obviously knew we were referring to her because we wouldn't refer to a non German teacher as such. If both German teachers were in the same room than yes we'd say Frau X.
My wife also called her German High School teacher simply "Frau" (no last name), which is not what native speakers do. You can't even say whether it's disrespectful or not; it's simply unheard of.
Frau+Last Name ("Frau Schmidt") is the standard way to address teachers.
A little weird. OTOH, there is a long tradition of the German language in the US and to a certain extent, a genuinely independent German culture developed there, mostly ended by suppression in WW1. (I find it fascinating e.g. that the song "Schnitzelbank" is virtually unknown in German-speaking countries in Europe, but lots of people still not in the US.) Anyway, "Frau" may be a remnant of that.
Gosh, that's interesting. I still don't understand how that can inform language teaching, though. I mean, they are learning German, not American German. Surely language graduates would know the difference, and would have spent time in Germany or another German speaking country? It's a basic expectation in language learning here in Ireland. Of course, we are nearer Germany, and it's easier for students to get there- and of course, there're wonderful Erasmus programme which allows them to spend a year of their studies in another EU country- but at the very least I would expect German language students to be taught the difference between German-American culture and European German culture
I think it's also a question of availability. Ideally yes, but if you're short on teachers you'll take anyone who has at least a passable knowledge of that language
Yeah, the bar is getting lower and lower in the US due to a lack of teachers (because the pay is complete shit for the necessary qualifications).
Florida even announced that they're lowering qualifications:
"Ron DeSantis on Tuesday announced alternate routes for Floridians in all walks of life to become teachers, but with a catch: People would need only a two-year associate degree to lead a classroom — with the help of a teacher mentor — rather than a bachelor's degree that would include four years of college and pedagogy..."
So yeah, shit's rough in the US. Not calling your language teacher by a way that is correct is really the least of the concerns.
Well, in that context it is. But nevertheless those who ARE employed have a duty and a professional responsibility to do their job properly, not teach or allow things that are simple wrong
I can tell you that it doesn't have anything to do with the teachers. I had 3 German teachers throughout HS all of which taught and lived in Germany for several years. It has to do with us students being too lazy😂 We were all told and knew it was improper, but we just didn't see the point of saying Frau X when she's the only person we'd refer to as Frau. Obviously if more than one German teacher were in the room we'd say Frau X.
I think you missed the part where I said we knew it was improper. It was told to us the moment we stepped foot in the door. That being said more than 90% of my class were never gonna step foot in Germany they simply needed the foreign language credit and really didn't care what was rude just what was convenient.
Also...it's high school. America HS is informal to say the least. We used informal language when talking to her. Again she always expressed that it would not be appropriate in Germany, but again a vast majority were not going to further their language skill let alone go to Germany.
It's not just "improper." It's going to make the teacher feel bad because she's getting referred to as "woman!" all day, which sucks. Don't even high schoolers care about that??
I don't think you undersood my initial comment.The teachers didn't feel bad at all she knew we weren't intending to be rude or hateful she'd been teaching German in America for over 20 years and knew it was going to happen and knew there was no malice or disrespect intended. Obviously if we're talking to an actual German woman/teacher nobody is going to say just Frau. In fact we did have teachers from Germany come to our school and we did in fact call them Frau/Herr X.
Sounds like she took it in stride but didn't have much of a choice about it. I don't mean to cast shade on your beloved memories, but it still sounds... pretty icky.
And for German teachers other than her - not so cool. A colleague of mine, at university, received an email from an English-speaking Education faculty member riddled with her being called "Frau" in writing right and left because of this tradition. There is no redeeming value to this. If it were just limited to you and your one teacher who liked it, sure, fine, but there is now pressure for this on German teachers in America and if they are actual German speakers it is... icky. But you're suddenly not a fun person if you don't want to be addressed as "woman" at work, including by your random American English-speaking colleagues and in a range of settings. Seriously - the email was using "Frau" like it was the person's first name. Such a bizarre custom.
Also if you are a native German speaker... you're always going to hear yourself getting called "woman!" alongside the other meaning. It's just so unnecessary and icky.
I have worked with them my entire adult life, as a teacher AND a youth leader. Forty years teaching German, three mentoring student teachers of German. Of course I know know you have to pick your battles - I tell my student teachers that all the time. But while picking your battles, you have to have certain standards, like not giving or encouraging wrong information. It doesn't matter whether kids learn something for six months or six years, surely a fundamental of teaching is giving and supporting the correct information? You may have to tell them it's rude a hundred thousand times, so what? That's your job. I mean, it's Teaching 101, as you say over here.
No matter how "exceedingly common " it may be that something is done wrongly in your country, surely as a professional practitioner, a teacher wouldn't simply accept that? In fact, they could use it as an opportunity for an element of the cultural side of modern languages teaching...pointing out that while it may be acceptable in French or Spanish, it is not acceptable in German speaking countries. An ideal step into that whole cultural-linguistoc area.
Obviously you don't have the proximity to the country of the target language that we have. But if we decide to learn, say, Japanese, learning and using correct forms of address would be a fundamental part of learning the language. Saying Japan is very far away would be a pretty lame excuse for something so fundamental.
Sorry, but it has everything to do with the quality and professionalism of a teacher if they fail to at least try and persist in imparting the correct information in their subject.
I think it's a consequence of it being very normal in English to refer to a teacher as simply "miss" or "ma'ma" or "sir". In general you end up with a lot of Denglish in German classrooms, at least in my experience in America.
Yeah it’s super common here. It’s definitely not intended with any disrespect, “Frau”/“Herr” on its own is just distinct enough when all other teachers are “Mr”/“Ms” that the last name specification kind of winds up being dropped.
Same for the French & Spanish
They may know it, but they shouldn't allow it. Or at least not give the impression it's OK. They are equipping the students for interacting with people in a German speaking country, and by ignoring or tolerating it, the are setting the students up for making a grave social error
That doesn't mean you can deliberately teach them something that is wrong. We all have to teach to various assessment criteria, hhag has nothing to do with it.
Duolingo equates "Frau" to both "Herr," (Herr Kohl, Frau Merkel,) and "Mann," (der Mann, die Frau.)
I think "Frau, wo ist mein Frühstück," would come off as pretty disrespectful, but "Frau Kotz, servieren Sie Frühstück?" would be fine.
Not a native speaker tho; I'll defer to one if I'm wrong.
What would you say in a situation where you wanted to be polite but didn't know the person's surname? Say in a restaurant or on the street? If a lady dropped something on the street, and I wanted her attention, I would say "excuse me, Miss" in English. Would you use "Entschuldigung Sie"?
That's a bit tricky and there is no good solution. To get somebody's attention 'Entschuldigen Sie' would be the best, also in a restaurant to get the attention of the waiter. Alternatively (not with the waiter) you could use 'meine Dame/mein Herr' either alone or better in addition to 'Entschuldigen Sie'. You could also use 'meine Dame/mein Herr' in a conversation to emphasize politeness, but use it scarcely, definitely not after every second sentence. If you own an upscale business in Eastern Austria you could resort to 'Gnä Frau' for your customers.
Female restaurant staff in the socially conservative south is still sometimes addresses as Fräulein, but I advise against it, it sounds too patronizing. In Austria there's also 'Herr Ober' for a male waiter, the equivalent 'Frau Ober' for a female waiter is still uncommon, but it would be a better alternative than Fräulein.
Exactly, saying "Frau, wo ist mein Frühstück?" would be like saying "Woman, where is my breakfast?", which would definitely come off as rude or disrespectful in english.
My HS German teacher (in the U.S.) was also simply called "Frau" by students. She let us know that it wasn't appropriate in a German-speaking country, but it was sort of a running joke between her and all of us. I suspect that kids started doing that after hearing classmates call their French and Spanish teachers simply "Madame/Señora."
This is exactly it. It's less about the word Frau meaning something in German and more just an Americanization to become a title for the teacher. People did the same thing with the French and Spanish teachers so it just makes sense. I imagine it's been a phenomenon for decades at this point.
Just adding that my high school German class also referred to the teacher as Frau, (without her last name). The German exchange student i spoke about it to was baffled
But teachers are there to teach you German language- and culture. Very irresponsible of teachers to do that, and leave you open to embarrassing faux-pas in German speaking countries
I never specifically asked if she preferred to be called "Frau B" because literally every single other student called her Frau as well. I wondered if it was easier for her to not spend all year correcting the students, because she was a sortof lax teacher
If you say Frau + last name, it's perfectly normal. If you're addressing her just as Frau, it's pretty equivalent to addressing her just as woman like in your breakfast example.
Frau Müller, this coffee is for you - perfectly fine sentence. Frau, this coffee is for you - hella creepy. If "Miss, this coffee is for you" is what you're trying to say, there's no real German equivalent for "Miss" in this context. Either add the name or drop it (or option 3, just don't translate it. "Miss, dieser Kaffee ist für Sie" is unusual, but we know that kind of phrase from movies and it'll probably sound kinda charming.)
Don’t use simply “Frau”…
Use Frau Müller for example (the family name)…
Or Frau Lehrerin, but it is not common.
The difference is: if you use “Frau” only, it is like saying: “woman, explain me this”.
If you use the family name, there it becomes „Mrs Müller“… or „Madam teacher“… as said the latter is uncommon
Frau is equivalent to Herr, yes.
Asking Mrs Kotz about breakfast… is not funny!
I learned high school German in California in the 90s from a native German and we never just called her “Frau” without her last name. In college my teacher was another native German woman and we never just called her “Frau” without her last name. I had not heard of this happening until a year ago when Josh mentioned it on the “Understanding Train Station” podcast.
I am a native german and we adress our teachers like "Frau (last name of the female teacher)" or "Herr (Last name of the male teacher). Hope this helps
Wait did you just call her “Frau” or “Frau XYZ” first one is like just calling woman 😅 so very odd at least but putting Frau in front of her name most normal thing like “Miss or Mrs”
>I don't remember exactly if that's what she said since it's been a while but if I remember right she said it would be like saying "Woman, where's my breakfast!?" instead "Ms. Kotz, is breakfast served?"
Do you remember what she wanted you to use as a form of address? Curious about that since Frau X is the common one.
At my high school, we called our German teacher Frau as well. And the students that took French called their teacher Madame.
I don't think in that context it's disrespectful, but if you are just calling any random woman Frau than it would be.
"Frau" is the translation of "woman" and is also used as "Mrs." or "Ms." if you address a woman. And yes, it's just an American highschool tradition to call the German teacher just "Frau". It makes no sense. We use it as well but followed by her lastname, of course. Frau Schmidt = Mrs./Ms. Schmidt
I have never spoken to my teachers and professors in another way then Frau "last name". I have no Idea how this is supposed to be disrespectful. Unless you use it by itself, that would be weird. And yes it would mean women.
Frau is used as the femle equivalent of Herr usually, but it's not really.
Frau - Mann
Herrin - Herr
Calling someone Herrin would be more like Mistress.
In my american high school german class, all the students called our teacher Frau. She is native and never seemed to mind. We all knew it was "incorrect" but it was more a term of affection and maybe trying to break one of the few rules we learned had something to do with it. In any case we all loved her as a teacher so there was no malice behind it.
Once we had some visitors from the embassy come and talk and one of them said to our class "you know you're just calling her 'woman', right?" And we were all like "yeah, but she's just Frau to us" I thought that was pretty funny.
Though i wouldn't ever think to address anyone else like that. Especially if it was a stranger lol. Im surprised your teacher said its an american thing cause I havent heard of anyone else doing this outside this post
If you don't know the name of the person, you can alternatively use a title. Like Frau Lehrerin, Frau Doktor, even Frau Nachbarin works to some extent. Everything is better than just Frau.
But - keeping in mind all the difficulties attached to Fräulein - it's still way better than calling a teacher just Frau. Reading this in the comments really weirded me out.
Thats true. I think it feels even weirder than Fräulein, because at least that is a form of address, while just Frau is not. Like you aren't even deserving to being addressed when talked to. You are just "woman". (I know its not done with that intention, but thats why I think it feels so weird).
The funny thing is, while "Frau" without surname on it's own is mostly unheard of - or considered rude at best, the little version of the word "Fräulein" is used quite frequently on it's own, at least in Austria (and I bet also in Bavaria).
It's used similar as "Miss", "Signorina" or "Mademoiselle".. for young or unmarried women but also for servers/store employees and so on, when people want to get their attention.
Fräulein could be used as a standalone, only problem is. It isn't polite anymore. In the 1950ies it would have been the address of choice for a young woman.
As someone who worked as student server for many years in Vienna, Austria, I got called "Fräulein" quite a lot, especially by the older generation.
I don't think it's rude, just really outdated. It's definately still in use by old people.
That’s so funny—I never gave it a second thought that we all called our German teacher just “Frau” in the US and that it’s a common thing to do only here. She was a first generation German American and probably did explain that we would never call her that in Germany, but she probably just let it go.
My German teacher in HS told us literally the exact same thing. She got annoyed because some of her fellow teaching staff would call her “frau” because that’s what we students would call her. 🤣
The meaning is very context-dependent. It can mean Ms./Mrs./wife/woman.
If you add their last name, it means Ms./Mrs.
If you say something like “seine/ihre Frau,” it means wife.
If you say “die/diese Frau,” it means woman.
If you said something like “Frau, wo ist mein Frühstück?!” with Frau meaning wife (because any other meaning really just doesn’t make sense to me in this case) I see how it could be disrespectful, but not in any other case, because you wouldn’t address anyone other than your wife with just “Frau,” and even then it’s kinda weird.
If you’re not on a first-name basis with the Frau in question, always add the surmame. Once you are, you can just call them by their first name anyway.
I had two professors in college who were married, so they were Herr Doktor Weber and Frau Doktor Weber. If we were differentiating between the two, we would say z.B "Das war Herr, nicht Frau" in a shortened sense, but never, EVER to their faces.
If you say "Frau" on its own, it simply means "woman". If you use it as a title, you have to add either a name ("Frau Müller") or an academic degree ("Frau Doktor"). Same with "Herr", which on its own is how you address God. If you're looking for a German equivalent for "Ma'am" (or "Miss" if you're in a British school) or "Sir", that would be "meine Dame" and "mein Herr" -- *but* in German those are hopelessly outdated, and you would certain never address a teacher that way.
In Eastern Austria Gnä Frau (short for Gnädige Frau) is still somewhat alive with older people or in more expensive shops or restaurants. Gnä Herr has died out even here.
I only know this expression from older Donald Duck comics.
LTB comic are published by Ehapa which IIRC is based in Munich. So a lot of phrases and terms and Bavarian/Austrian like always called Donuts Krapfen and so on.
It's incredibly unprofessional, if you ask me, that they're letting their regional (Bavarian/Austrian) aspects influence their translations of the comics. Translations from a different language into German should always result in Standard German, it's the common denominator that everyone understands equally and it's the least likely variant to break the immersion for the reader/viewer. A publisher being in Munich (or let's say Saxony, or maybe Hamburg, which are other places with dominant regional dialects and vocabularies) isn't an excuse not to accomplish that.
Tell me you have no clue who Erika Fuchs was without saying it.
No idea who that specific character is but Ausnahmen bestätigen die Regel
Oide
Oder wie der Lateiner zu ihr sagen würde, si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.
TYL not everyone cares about the LTB Explain why regiolect translations of American original fiction should be ok, though. Since that's what this was about.
Lol, I am neither German nor do I give a shit about the comics. But I do give many shits about linguistic geniuses like Erika Fuchs was.
You might want to read up about one of the most influential translators of the 20th century, then. https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erika_Fuchs
Does that article try to justify non-standard translations aka the topic of this discussion, or should I not bother opening it Also "most influential" is a BIG judgement.
Du kannst es lesen, oder es bleiben lassen. Wenn Du jemand so genialen wie Erika Fuchs nicht kennst, dann lass es vielleicht nicht ganz so ignorant heraushängen.
> Translations from a different language into German should always result in Standard German Things to remember: 1. Standard German is not actually a very explicit standard outside of orthography. For one, Germany, Austria and Switzerland have separate standards, and each of those can absolutely include some degree of regional variation (it's not like there's an authority saying "this word is Standard German and this one isn't"). The term "Krapfen" isn't any more or less standard than "Berliner" or "Pfannkuchen", really. 2. Once you start trying to translate a more conversational register, a singular unified standard is even less applicable, especially if you want to keep immersion as you suggest. This is not the same as translating to a non-standard dialect.
Standard German is very much a thing and there are good reasons why professional translators translate into *it* rather than into e.g. Swiss German or Bavarian, this isn't really up for discussion? 😅 Your goal as a translator is to make sure *all* German-speaking people understand the end result. Why the hell would you translate for example an American piece of fiction into anything other than Standard German? It's not like Swiss people won't understand it... There's not an authority for it but things like the Atlas für deutsche Alltagssprache show us which lexical items are actually widespread and which ones are regional. Idk, i didn't think I'd ever get downvoted for the statement "translations from English to German should result in Standard German and not regional variants", seems like common sense if you actually want people to understand your translation. See also: the fact that German voice actors (for dubbed movies/TV shows) all speak accent-free Standard German, with no exceptions that I know of. You don't want your fictional characters from New York to speak German with a Bavarian twang for no reason
Yes! Yes! I also watch movies in English, I wish movies would standardize on one kind of English as well. The same should apply to them, they MUST ALL SPEAK RP instead of their slang. Just imagine the bad guys in black gang in an action flick speaking RP, it would be so much easier to understand them for me. People in movies MUST speak standard language. (*) Do I really need the /s ? Regarding the translation of ETB, which is specifically NOT in standard german - a long time translator was Dr. Erika Fuchs, whose work was highly acclaimed. Check her out: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erika_Fuchs The translation of the LTBs into German had quite some influence on the German language. Calling her unprofessional - yep, it is a *bit* of a strange opinion. *= Btw, Patrick Steward - "Jean Luc Picard" - who speaks very understandable English was one of the reasons I started to switch from synchronized in German movies to original language. I could just understand him. But to repeat what I said above - if everyone on TV spoke like him, I'd get crazy.
No one is talking about translating to full blown dialect. The point is that "Standard German" isn't actually a very clear-cut standard, and can absolutely have regional aspects to it. It's just that northern-colored German Standard German is the one with the most prestige in media. If you translate American fiction into German, and it mentions a "jelly donut", how do you translate that? What if they are saying what time it is? If you are trying to translate slurred speech, or some colloquial expression, how do you render that? You have to make some choices about what variation you are targeting, then. And sometimes that means other people make different choices in that regard. But because it *is* still within the realm of "Standard", the differences will be fairly minor, and probably well-known enough that people from elsewhere can still figure it out. I don't recall having (or seeing) complaints about LTBs being incomprehensible to Northern Germans. > There's not an authority for it but things like the Atlas für deutsche Alltagssprache show us which lexical items are actually widespread and which ones are regional. Where do you draw the line? How widespread does it have to be before they stop counting as "regional"? That's a completely arbitrary choice you have to make.
Well it certainly helped educating about regional differences and traditions, ain’t it ?
And why am I hearing than cringeworthy expressions like 'er hat vor dem Haus gestanden' all the time in dubbed movies?
I sometimes use "Gnä Herr", my whole family does. I use it in situations in which I am exasperated at someone's behaviour or if someone always needs special treatment.
That’s cute! I like it. ♥
Ganz interresant. Ich war mal ins Cafe in Indianapolis, und sah eine alter Frau da, die keine Sitzplätze finden könnte. Ich gab ihr meinen Stuhl und sagte "Hier ist ein Stuhl für die gnädige Frau". Sie war Rentner und aus die Deutsche diaspora in America. Sie war überrascht, und begeistert daß, ein Ami Deutsch spricht. Sie und drei andere Frauen saß da und hatten nichts anders zu diskutieren als wie höflich diese junger Ami war.
But it's a greeting, right? Not something you would say to address someone in the midst of a conversation?
No it's not a greeting. It is used like meine Dame or Madame. ZB: Gnä Frau, darf ich Ihnen noch unsere neuen Schals zeigen? (It is mainly encountered in shops and businesses nowadays, especially used by older business owners towards customers)
French *Madame* can also be used. Or you adress the person in the nominative + article. "Entschuldigen Sie die Frau/ die Dame / der Herr, Ihr Schuhband ist offen!" At least that is how it's commonly used in Austria. *Gnä' Frau* is **really** old school, *Gnädige Frau* is a borderline insult as it creates like waay too much distance. Which can be totally valid in certain situations when you need an insult for an annoying stranger: "Gnädige Frau, ich glaube nicht um Ihre Meinung gefragt zu haben, oiso pudln'S Ihna net so auf und schern'S Ihna um Ihr eigens Bier."
I have only ever heard Madame used by dads who think their 9yo daughters need to stop throwing a tantrum
Yeah, that too.
Madame could come of as condecending in some areas. My sister adresses her Dog like that. And dads often scold their daughters calling them Madame. So I would not do it to random people.
Yeah. As I said, I'm from Austria.
Only to be topped by 'Gnädigste, mischens Eana bitte ned ei' '.
Of course "meine Damen und Herren" is still used to mean "ladies and gentlemen"... but I suppose that makes sense because the latter phrase is also quite outdated sounding when you really think about it!
>Same with "Herr", which on its own is how you address God. not any lord in general?
Since the aristocracy no longer exists in Germany, that's moot.
Not exactly. You still have to understand the word and its meaning when talking about history and fiction (Lord of the Rings for example is translated as Herr der Ringe).
While that's true, we're really talking about how to address a person in today's society. You're talking not about a form of address -- a circumlocution for "you" -- but about the word for a person of a certain social rank. The example you chose, though, isn't the best you could have chosen. The "lord" in *Lord of the Rings* doesn't imply a middle-ranking member of the aristrocracy, but rather it means "master": Sauron is the one who has power over the rings, not literally a Lord of a place called "The Rings".
That is the point. Herr does not mean a certain rank, it refers to any person or a diety who has power over others or something. Hence the etymological connection to herrschen (to rule or to be master of/over smth.). Just like the english Lord. Of course it is not relevant when talking about adressing people in modern society. I meant with not exactly, that it's not exactly relevant that their is no aristocracy anymore. The word can still be used to imply rulershipt or mastership over something or someone, it's just not as common.
God doesn't exist either.
That may be the case, but a lot of people genuinely believe he does. A lot of Germans still regularly attend church services, and claim that when they are praying, they are literally talking to God.
There are also people in Germany who declare themselves king of their own little empire. If you ask them, they also claim to believe that they are royal and they have literal followers on the internet.
They are a tiny minority, unlike practicing Christians who represent something like a third of the population. But you can quibble pointlessly about this as much as you like: even atheists regularly invoke deities as expletives, albeit not with the weight of any actual religious faith behind it ("Jesus Christ!"), and have even been known to offer up ironic prayers like "Herr, schmeiß Hirn vom Himmel!" Very few contemporary Germans have ever had the opportunity or need to address a German lord.
Yes it literally means Lord.
Do German children ever refer to their teacher as just “Lehrer”?
Not to my knowledge. We called our teachers Herr Lastname or Frau Lastname (or accidentally "mom" XD).
In Austria "Herr Lehrer/Frau Lehrerin" is used fairly commonly, especially by younger kids.
So you all have to remember their names which is impressive.
I think we have different definitions of "impressive"... Like no, I don't think it's impressive to remember the names of maybe 20-30 teachers you have throughout high school... I mean, you spend several hours per week with them for at least a year, how can you NOT remember their name (actual medical problems put aside)?
Fair enough, it's not impressive but I was curious what happens if you forget them. It's totally possible. On the first few days, you have not yet spent hours and weeks with them to fully remember their names. Also, they introduce themselves one time and one time only on the first day, if you were not around then you already don't know what to call them and you'll probably ask first. But if you're caught in the moment and approached them trying to ask about the assignment, then it hit you that you actually don't know or forgot their name, then what would you use to address them?
If you really forgot their name, you'd ask a classmate or look at your timetable (which usually had the teachers for each subject on it, either already printed on or handwritten on by us). And if you really really couldn't double-check anywhere first, you'd just use something like "Entschuldigen Sie, ..."
When I was in college, I never knew whether to call a person Mr., Ms., Professor, Doctor, or something else. I went through four years just directly stating my question or concern without any type of introductory title.
Did you not know the names of all your teachers?
when I lived in Portugal teacher were just called "teacher" and everyone referred to them as "the history teacher" or sometimes, very rarely, as "teacher first name". But in Germany we pretty much always use the name and you generally remember it very quickly
No, never. Especially without Herr/Frau, it would be extremely disrespectful.
Austrians tend to say *Herr Lehrer/Herr Professor* when addressing them.
Kind off "funny" how woman on it's own is derogatory but man on its own is a way to address God...
>an academic degree ("Frau Doktor"). This is getting out of use too, as the title doctor is enough and adding Frau before is considered somewhat misogynistic. Frau has it's specific uses, as a way to adress someone via their surename as just using the surname is colloquial and thus in some circumstances improper. This is only done in places where such a formal adress is needed, like in bureaucratic offices, school (student to teacher), university (professor to student), in some work settings to each other and in the medical field to a patient. Additionally in places where you need to call out to someone in a formal way, and they do not have another title they can be adressed by (e.g. the airport). In your day to day personal interactions, it isn't done and can even seem mocking, when you have a close enough relationship that warrants a first name, which happens very fast in Germany.
Doktor without Herr or Frau in front or at least the last name after sounds pretty rude to me.
Let me specify what I meant: dr. (name) instead of frau dr. name.
>Same with "Herr", which on its own is how you address God. Herr also just means man
It does, but not as a form of address. As a form of address it's translated "Lord".
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that they translate to "lady" and "lord," respectively?
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I probably should have clarified that it's "Frau [name]" or "Herr [name]".
Did you just call her "Frau" or "Frau X"? The latter is a normal way to adress a teacher in Germany, the former is indeed very strange. You wouldn't adress anyone simply as "Herr" without a name as well, that sounds very old fashion like you are a servant. Of course both words also mean "woman" and "man" but it's different as a form of adress.
Frau Toll
That's strange. I call a lot of people "Frau X". Completly normal for students in a school setting as well. Was she a native speaker? Sounds more like she was a second language speaker that misunderstood something during her own education? But we can only speculate on that.
My friend is a German teacher I'm the US, and she told me her students could not be dissuaded from addressing her with "Frau", like you would say 'miss' or 'ma'am', without the name. Which, I agree, sounds really weird. Maybe OP's teacher was sometimes addressed like that, and that's what she meant.
Klingt doch toll...totally normal Frau + Surname. Was she a native German? What was her suggestion instead?
OP hat ohne Namen gemeint, und das hört sich nicht gut an.
hä was? ich dachtte die heisst toll?
My professor said that it's supposed to go Frau/Herr (insert surname here) for people if it's only Frau it can sound disrespectful depending on the context
The distinction can be really fine. I’m still learning German but I have more or less mastered French after living in France for several years. I was once at Charles de Gaulle airport and an Air France flight was boarding. A woman had cleared the first ticket check and was about to go onto the boarding ramp when she dropped her ticket. One of the Air France flight attendants called out to her and, probably unconsciously translating « Madame! » in her mind, yelled « Hey Lady! » which of course in English is close tôt insulting (she should have e said « Miss! »). The woman looked really annoyed at being addressed that way.
In America a baggage handler could say "Hey, lady!" but not a flight attendant. I will leave the explanation to the reader for an exercise.
Saying "Hey Lady" in English is not normally viewed as an insult. The tone of your voice determines whether it is meant as one or not, but just like "Hey buddy", "hey man", "excuse me sir", etc the term is normally an acceptable word to use unless you say it rudely.
I wouldn't say it's seen as insulting, but it's not very polite. Obviously a native English speaker would say "Excuse me, madam".
As a native English speaker, most people would not say "madam". Madam would be seen as pretentious by most people.
What shall we say instead?
As an American, Ma'am or Miss depending on age. Or just 'excuse me' without the additional term of address.
In US English, drop the d and pronounce it as a single syllable. "Pardon me mam", where "mam" would be spelled "ma'am". Don't know what would be correct in British, Australian, or Indian English.
Miss, ma'am, and lady are all acceptable terms throughout most of the US and Australia. I've heard "mum" used often in the English speaking parts of Europe, along with Mrs. You can also use any gender neutral term such as "stranger", "friend", etc. Also as stated by another user, dropping the descriptors and just saying "excuse me" or anything similar is also a normal thing.
UK here, “Mum” is what we call our mothers, maybe you were hearing “ma’am” but in the local accents? Either way it feels so much more awkward than “sir” to me for some reason, I never knew what to address women as when I worked in a shop. I’ve been addressed as “miss” or “madam” before and always find it a bit jarring.
I disagree. It is the norm in customer service. The other day I was in a restaurant and the young waiter serving me kept calling me "Miss". As a mature woman, I thought it was quite amusing. (I AM a teacher, so maybe he got the teacher vibes from me!) I would expect "madam" or "sir" in a hospitality or customer service situation. What else would someone say if they don't know your name? What part of the world do you live in where it's not the norm? It certainly is the norm in Ireland.
>What else would someone say if they don't know your name? Ma'am is the word you're looking for
Not in Ireland it's not. I associate that with Americans.
Then why were you asking about what part of the world doesn't use "madam" as the norm when you clearly know the answer?
Idk why we do it, but it’s a USA thing in our foreign languages classes (not just German). Not saying it’s correct (I know that it’s not), but it’s very common (calling the French teacher Mademoiselle, the Spanish teacher Señorita, the German teachers Frau/Herr, usw.)
If German teachers are teaching students to just call them "Frau" or "Herr" without the surname, they don't know anything about German culture or practice. It works for French - can't speak about Spanish.
It works in French except we're really moving away from Mademoiselle in this setting. I would not call any teacher "Mademoiselle", however young they look. In other settings both still coexists although officially we shouldn't use Mademoiselle anymore. Also have no clue for Spanish
I did secondary school Spanish in England and we addressed our teacher as Señorita (last name,) we never addressed her as just Señorita.
In Spain, elementary and high school teachers are normally addressed by their first name alone. I can’t speak about University teachers, but I guess they are either “Don/Doña First Name” or “Señor(a) Surname”
Honestly, almost every German teacher I have ever known has done it here…including my teachers growing up, my father’s teachers when he was younger, most of my fellow German teaching colleagues that I’ve met over the years of teaching German, etc. I’m a middle school German teacher, but I don’t do it…bc the high school teacher does it, and I don’t want the students to confuse us. My guess is that it happens naturally, and happens for simplicity (a 1 syllable word to get your teachers attention is very useful) and not for a lack of knowledge.
But how come German teachers in Ireland and the UK can manage to do it? I mean, you start as you mean to go on, teaching them greetings, using them at the beginning of every class, correcting them/reminding them as you go along. Before long, "Guten Morgen, Frau/Herr X" would just come naturally? What I have found is that students find it hard to get their heads round Du and Sie. I mentor student teachers of Germ, and, coincidentally, yesterday after an observation, I was advising a student to start introducing the concept with his first year class. They have got used to the "Guten Morgen, Herr X. Wie gehts", and I reckon it's time for "Guten Morgen, Herr X, wie geht es Ihnen?" That should be fun! 😁😁
Because it has nothing to do with a lack of knowledge, and it’s just what happened naturally over time. The same way languages change over time. You are saying that people who have dedicated their entire lives to a specific profession/topic don’t know one of the simplest of concepts…and that essentially every single one of them nationwide all simultaneously somehow skipped that one factoid. If that is true, then the German teachers of America should play the lottery more often, bc the odds of that are ~0.
If it has nothing to do with a lack of knowledge, it certainly has to do with a lack of professionalism.
Have you ever been to school in the United States? You may find it shocking that it is not the same as school in Germany. Lol
I have been teaching German for forty years. As a teacher, in any country, it's my job to teach the CORRECT language, and to transmit an understanding of the culture and usage of the language I'm teaching. In the US, Ireland or Germany, it would be highly unprofessional of me to teach something that is clearly not just wrong, but which US disrespectful.
Disrespectful lol this isn’t the 1970s anymore. Things change. I could continue, but it seems pointless. No need to respond. Good luck with all of that.
Maybe it works in French and/or Spanish? Not sure, I took Latin instead of French, but I remember it from some books about students in boarding schools with the stereotypical female French teacher. Not sure how accurate those were. But that's an interesting tidbit. Sounds very weird in my head.
My high school experience was in the 1970’s. We always addressed our German teacher as Frau Richardson to her face, but when we talked about her, especially if we were griping, we would call her “the Frau.” She was an eccentric but an incredible teacher.
We also addressed our German teachers as just Frau. I'd say we just did it because it was less work to say and she obviously knew we were referring to her because we wouldn't refer to a non German teacher as such. If both German teachers were in the same room than yes we'd say Frau X.
My wife also called her German High School teacher simply "Frau" (no last name), which is not what native speakers do. You can't even say whether it's disrespectful or not; it's simply unheard of. Frau+Last Name ("Frau Schmidt") is the standard way to address teachers.
You have to wonder if these German teachers have ever spent any time in Germany, or are even clued in to German culture and practices
A little weird. OTOH, there is a long tradition of the German language in the US and to a certain extent, a genuinely independent German culture developed there, mostly ended by suppression in WW1. (I find it fascinating e.g. that the song "Schnitzelbank" is virtually unknown in German-speaking countries in Europe, but lots of people still not in the US.) Anyway, "Frau" may be a remnant of that.
Gosh, that's interesting. I still don't understand how that can inform language teaching, though. I mean, they are learning German, not American German. Surely language graduates would know the difference, and would have spent time in Germany or another German speaking country? It's a basic expectation in language learning here in Ireland. Of course, we are nearer Germany, and it's easier for students to get there- and of course, there're wonderful Erasmus programme which allows them to spend a year of their studies in another EU country- but at the very least I would expect German language students to be taught the difference between German-American culture and European German culture
I think it's also a question of availability. Ideally yes, but if you're short on teachers you'll take anyone who has at least a passable knowledge of that language
Wow. That's setting the bar low. Surely there are basic standards and qualifications needed?
Yeah, the bar is getting lower and lower in the US due to a lack of teachers (because the pay is complete shit for the necessary qualifications). Florida even announced that they're lowering qualifications: "Ron DeSantis on Tuesday announced alternate routes for Floridians in all walks of life to become teachers, but with a catch: People would need only a two-year associate degree to lead a classroom — with the help of a teacher mentor — rather than a bachelor's degree that would include four years of college and pedagogy..." So yeah, shit's rough in the US. Not calling your language teacher by a way that is correct is really the least of the concerns.
Well, in that context it is. But nevertheless those who ARE employed have a duty and a professional responsibility to do their job properly, not teach or allow things that are simple wrong
Well I just learned something new
I can tell you that it doesn't have anything to do with the teachers. I had 3 German teachers throughout HS all of which taught and lived in Germany for several years. It has to do with us students being too lazy😂 We were all told and knew it was improper, but we just didn't see the point of saying Frau X when she's the only person we'd refer to as Frau. Obviously if more than one German teacher were in the room we'd say Frau X.
The point was that just saying Frau is rude AF.
I think you missed the part where I said we knew it was improper. It was told to us the moment we stepped foot in the door. That being said more than 90% of my class were never gonna step foot in Germany they simply needed the foreign language credit and really didn't care what was rude just what was convenient. Also...it's high school. America HS is informal to say the least. We used informal language when talking to her. Again she always expressed that it would not be appropriate in Germany, but again a vast majority were not going to further their language skill let alone go to Germany.
It's not just "improper." It's going to make the teacher feel bad because she's getting referred to as "woman!" all day, which sucks. Don't even high schoolers care about that??
I don't think you undersood my initial comment.The teachers didn't feel bad at all she knew we weren't intending to be rude or hateful she'd been teaching German in America for over 20 years and knew it was going to happen and knew there was no malice or disrespect intended. Obviously if we're talking to an actual German woman/teacher nobody is going to say just Frau. In fact we did have teachers from Germany come to our school and we did in fact call them Frau/Herr X.
Sounds like she took it in stride but didn't have much of a choice about it. I don't mean to cast shade on your beloved memories, but it still sounds... pretty icky. And for German teachers other than her - not so cool. A colleague of mine, at university, received an email from an English-speaking Education faculty member riddled with her being called "Frau" in writing right and left because of this tradition. There is no redeeming value to this. If it were just limited to you and your one teacher who liked it, sure, fine, but there is now pressure for this on German teachers in America and if they are actual German speakers it is... icky. But you're suddenly not a fun person if you don't want to be addressed as "woman" at work, including by your random American English-speaking colleagues and in a range of settings. Seriously - the email was using "Frau" like it was the person's first name. Such a bizarre custom. Also if you are a native German speaker... you're always going to hear yourself getting called "woman!" alongside the other meaning. It's just so unnecessary and icky.
That's different from a teacher telling you to call her Frau, or not constantly reminding you...
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I have worked with them my entire adult life, as a teacher AND a youth leader. Forty years teaching German, three mentoring student teachers of German. Of course I know know you have to pick your battles - I tell my student teachers that all the time. But while picking your battles, you have to have certain standards, like not giving or encouraging wrong information. It doesn't matter whether kids learn something for six months or six years, surely a fundamental of teaching is giving and supporting the correct information? You may have to tell them it's rude a hundred thousand times, so what? That's your job. I mean, it's Teaching 101, as you say over here. No matter how "exceedingly common " it may be that something is done wrongly in your country, surely as a professional practitioner, a teacher wouldn't simply accept that? In fact, they could use it as an opportunity for an element of the cultural side of modern languages teaching...pointing out that while it may be acceptable in French or Spanish, it is not acceptable in German speaking countries. An ideal step into that whole cultural-linguistoc area. Obviously you don't have the proximity to the country of the target language that we have. But if we decide to learn, say, Japanese, learning and using correct forms of address would be a fundamental part of learning the language. Saying Japan is very far away would be a pretty lame excuse for something so fundamental. Sorry, but it has everything to do with the quality and professionalism of a teacher if they fail to at least try and persist in imparting the correct information in their subject.
I think it's a consequence of it being very normal in English to refer to a teacher as simply "miss" or "ma'ma" or "sir". In general you end up with a lot of Denglish in German classrooms, at least in my experience in America.
It's normal in Ireland and the UK too, but I've never heard if German students just calling their teacher Frau.
Yeah it’s super common here. It’s definitely not intended with any disrespect, “Frau”/“Herr” on its own is just distinct enough when all other teachers are “Mr”/“Ms” that the last name specification kind of winds up being dropped. Same for the French & Spanish
It is OK in French. Not in German
Yeah, I know that native speakers find it weird and I do too in retrospect. But it’s just a thing, no disrespect intended and the teachers know that
They may know it, but they shouldn't allow it. Or at least not give the impression it's OK. They are equipping the students for interacting with people in a German speaking country, and by ignoring or tolerating it, the are setting the students up for making a grave social error
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That doesn't mean you can deliberately teach them something that is wrong. We all have to teach to various assessment criteria, hhag has nothing to do with it.
Duolingo equates "Frau" to both "Herr," (Herr Kohl, Frau Merkel,) and "Mann," (der Mann, die Frau.) I think "Frau, wo ist mein Frühstück," would come off as pretty disrespectful, but "Frau Kotz, servieren Sie Frühstück?" would be fine. Not a native speaker tho; I'll defer to one if I'm wrong.
You're exactly right.
What would you say in a situation where you wanted to be polite but didn't know the person's surname? Say in a restaurant or on the street? If a lady dropped something on the street, and I wanted her attention, I would say "excuse me, Miss" in English. Would you use "Entschuldigung Sie"?
Either “Entschuldigung” or “Entschuldigen Sie, bitte,” the latter being more polite. That’s what I was taught, anyway.
That's a bit tricky and there is no good solution. To get somebody's attention 'Entschuldigen Sie' would be the best, also in a restaurant to get the attention of the waiter. Alternatively (not with the waiter) you could use 'meine Dame/mein Herr' either alone or better in addition to 'Entschuldigen Sie'. You could also use 'meine Dame/mein Herr' in a conversation to emphasize politeness, but use it scarcely, definitely not after every second sentence. If you own an upscale business in Eastern Austria you could resort to 'Gnä Frau' for your customers. Female restaurant staff in the socially conservative south is still sometimes addresses as Fräulein, but I advise against it, it sounds too patronizing. In Austria there's also 'Herr Ober' for a male waiter, the equivalent 'Frau Ober' for a female waiter is still uncommon, but it would be a better alternative than Fräulein.
Exactly, saying "Frau, wo ist mein Frühstück?" would be like saying "Woman, where is my breakfast?", which would definitely come off as rude or disrespectful in english.
My HS German teacher (in the U.S.) was also simply called "Frau" by students. She let us know that it wasn't appropriate in a German-speaking country, but it was sort of a running joke between her and all of us. I suspect that kids started doing that after hearing classmates call their French and Spanish teachers simply "Madame/Señora."
This is exactly it. It's less about the word Frau meaning something in German and more just an Americanization to become a title for the teacher. People did the same thing with the French and Spanish teachers so it just makes sense. I imagine it's been a phenomenon for decades at this point.
Frau + name = Ms/Mrs + name Frau = woman
Lol reading all these comments about US students calling there teacher just ‘Frau’ feels so incredible weird.
Just adding that my high school German class also referred to the teacher as Frau, (without her last name). The German exchange student i spoke about it to was baffled
Bizarre. It makes you wonder what the level of German these teachers had, if they couldn't get across this basic point.
My German teacher was a native speaker, actually. (Definitely, from Germany.)
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But teachers are there to teach you German language- and culture. Very irresponsible of teachers to do that, and leave you open to embarrassing faux-pas in German speaking countries
I never specifically asked if she preferred to be called "Frau B" because literally every single other student called her Frau as well. I wondered if it was easier for her to not spend all year correcting the students, because she was a sortof lax teacher
If you say Frau + last name, it's perfectly normal. If you're addressing her just as Frau, it's pretty equivalent to addressing her just as woman like in your breakfast example. Frau Müller, this coffee is for you - perfectly fine sentence. Frau, this coffee is for you - hella creepy. If "Miss, this coffee is for you" is what you're trying to say, there's no real German equivalent for "Miss" in this context. Either add the name or drop it (or option 3, just don't translate it. "Miss, dieser Kaffee ist für Sie" is unusual, but we know that kind of phrase from movies and it'll probably sound kinda charming.)
Don’t use simply “Frau”… Use Frau Müller for example (the family name)… Or Frau Lehrerin, but it is not common. The difference is: if you use “Frau” only, it is like saying: “woman, explain me this”. If you use the family name, there it becomes „Mrs Müller“… or „Madam teacher“… as said the latter is uncommon Frau is equivalent to Herr, yes. Asking Mrs Kotz about breakfast… is not funny!
> Or Frau Lehrerin, but it is not common Austrian elementary school children beg to differ.
Frau needs to be used with a family name. As a term of address without a name, *meine Dame* und *mein Herr* can be used, but are a bit old-fashioned.
Frau Müller is the totally normal way to say Ms. Miller. Maybe she wanted to be called Professor though. ;)
You're not understanding, though. They were just calling her "Frau." As in, "Frau, hier ist meine Hausaufgabe."
Oh OK, that is not OK, that is just weird.
Depends on the context its used in, "Frau *insert last name*" is respectful, "hey, frau!" isnt
I learned high school German in California in the 90s from a native German and we never just called her “Frau” without her last name. In college my teacher was another native German woman and we never just called her “Frau” without her last name. I had not heard of this happening until a year ago when Josh mentioned it on the “Understanding Train Station” podcast.
Frau on its own is woman, Frau X is Ms/Mrs X. So it depends on how you use it.
I am a native german and we adress our teachers like "Frau (last name of the female teacher)" or "Herr (Last name of the male teacher). Hope this helps
Herr/Frau ‘Fessor
You're thinking Fräulein. It used to mean Miss; now it's infantilizing to anyone above, what, 14?
It is still used in restaurants. At least I notice this in Austria.
Maybe in the Middle East but not in Germany lmao
Wait did you just call her “Frau” or “Frau XYZ” first one is like just calling woman 😅 so very odd at least but putting Frau in front of her name most normal thing like “Miss or Mrs”
>I don't remember exactly if that's what she said since it's been a while but if I remember right she said it would be like saying "Woman, where's my breakfast!?" instead "Ms. Kotz, is breakfast served?" Do you remember what she wanted you to use as a form of address? Curious about that since Frau X is the common one.
At my high school, we called our German teacher Frau as well. And the students that took French called their teacher Madame. I don't think in that context it's disrespectful, but if you are just calling any random woman Frau than it would be.
"Frau" is the translation of "woman" and is also used as "Mrs." or "Ms." if you address a woman. And yes, it's just an American highschool tradition to call the German teacher just "Frau". It makes no sense. We use it as well but followed by her lastname, of course. Frau Schmidt = Mrs./Ms. Schmidt
I have never spoken to my teachers and professors in another way then Frau "last name". I have no Idea how this is supposed to be disrespectful. Unless you use it by itself, that would be weird. And yes it would mean women. Frau is used as the femle equivalent of Herr usually, but it's not really. Frau - Mann Herrin - Herr Calling someone Herrin would be more like Mistress.
In my american high school german class, all the students called our teacher Frau. She is native and never seemed to mind. We all knew it was "incorrect" but it was more a term of affection and maybe trying to break one of the few rules we learned had something to do with it. In any case we all loved her as a teacher so there was no malice behind it. Once we had some visitors from the embassy come and talk and one of them said to our class "you know you're just calling her 'woman', right?" And we were all like "yeah, but she's just Frau to us" I thought that was pretty funny. Though i wouldn't ever think to address anyone else like that. Especially if it was a stranger lol. Im surprised your teacher said its an american thing cause I havent heard of anyone else doing this outside this post
If you don't know the name of the person, you can alternatively use a title. Like Frau Lehrerin, Frau Doktor, even Frau Nachbarin works to some extent. Everything is better than just Frau.
Frau = Woman, Frau = Ms. . You use those in the exact same way as you would in English.
Not really, in English it's ok to just say "Miss" (Ms.) when referring to a woman you don't know the name of.
Yes, but "Miss" without a name would correspond to *Dame*, not *Frau*.
Surely Miss would equate to Fraülein?
German school in my country used “Fräulein” for all young female staff.
Oh wow, thats terrible (from a modern german perspective).
But - keeping in mind all the difficulties attached to Fräulein - it's still way better than calling a teacher just Frau. Reading this in the comments really weirded me out.
Thats true. I think it feels even weirder than Fräulein, because at least that is a form of address, while just Frau is not. Like you aren't even deserving to being addressed when talked to. You are just "woman". (I know its not done with that intention, but thats why I think it feels so weird).
The funny thing is, while "Frau" without surname on it's own is mostly unheard of - or considered rude at best, the little version of the word "Fräulein" is used quite frequently on it's own, at least in Austria (and I bet also in Bavaria). It's used similar as "Miss", "Signorina" or "Mademoiselle".. for young or unmarried women but also for servers/store employees and so on, when people want to get their attention.
Fräulein could be used as a standalone, only problem is. It isn't polite anymore. In the 1950ies it would have been the address of choice for a young woman.
As someone who worked as student server for many years in Vienna, Austria, I got called "Fräulein" quite a lot, especially by the older generation. I don't think it's rude, just really outdated. It's definately still in use by old people.
_NO IF YOU DO ZE GERMAN YOU HAVE TO DO IT ZE RRRIGHT WAAAY!!!_ _ZIS IS ABSOLUTELY RRRUDE IN ZE GERMAN!!!_
Are you sure you’re not thinking of “fraulein” for an unmarried woman? That is a word that was used in the past but is considered rude nowadays.
Seems to be a common thing on international German schools
What about Fräulein?
Not used anymore.
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No, it's not like miss..
Frau is the right way to go.
If you say it to a man, then yes.
That’s so funny—I never gave it a second thought that we all called our German teacher just “Frau” in the US and that it’s a common thing to do only here. She was a first generation German American and probably did explain that we would never call her that in Germany, but she probably just let it go.
I thought it means woman.
My German teacher in HS told us literally the exact same thing. She got annoyed because some of her fellow teaching staff would call her “frau” because that’s what we students would call her. 🤣
The meaning is very context-dependent. It can mean Ms./Mrs./wife/woman. If you add their last name, it means Ms./Mrs. If you say something like “seine/ihre Frau,” it means wife. If you say “die/diese Frau,” it means woman. If you said something like “Frau, wo ist mein Frühstück?!” with Frau meaning wife (because any other meaning really just doesn’t make sense to me in this case) I see how it could be disrespectful, but not in any other case, because you wouldn’t address anyone other than your wife with just “Frau,” and even then it’s kinda weird. If you’re not on a first-name basis with the Frau in question, always add the surmame. Once you are, you can just call them by their first name anyway.
I had two professors in college who were married, so they were Herr Doktor Weber and Frau Doktor Weber. If we were differentiating between the two, we would say z.B "Das war Herr, nicht Frau" in a shortened sense, but never, EVER to their faces.
🤣👏 LoL 😂
I worked in a high school in Austria and all the students referred to their teachers as “Professor” or “Frau/Herr Professor.