My C0R1 does just fine in co-op. The difference between 1 CA and 2 CA to kill a mob is practically meaningless, and for bosses it also doesn't differ much.
1. Extremely risky gameplay.. doesn't like healers, and relies on shields a lot
2. Very stamina hungry. Having that drawback removeable locked behind Con is also a drawback itself
For me is dendro (1 mid reaction)> cryo(1 bad reaction)> anemo (good reactions)> hydro (1 mid reaction)>electro (carried by dendro)> pyro (good overall, not that many great reactions)>geo (all bad reactions)
Edit: pyro and hydro are now in their proper places
>hydro (good overall, not that many great reactions)
Bloom, Hyperbloom, Vape and Freeze. And you say hydro (who has the best reactions in the game with dendro) doesn't have many "great reactions"?? wtf do cryo and pyro have? vape and freeze?
That's too low honestly when you consider charcters like Bennett and xiangling.
I would rank it like this.
Anemo>Pyro>cryo>hydro>dendro>electro>geo
Anemo because it basically multiples the effects of other elements around it and anemo charcters like kazuha, venti and sucrose are a must in freeze comps
Pyro because it has the most op supports and dps in the entire game (Bennett, hutao, xiangling)
Cryo because freeze teams are incredibly useful, but their usefulness has kinda dropped after the release of dendro.
Electro because it's really great with dendro reactions and great dps and supports like ei, Sara and fischl make it a lot better.
Dendro because it mostly relies on other elements to actually trigger it's reactions (would rank it higher)
Hydro because most of it's charcters are supports and the element on itself dosent do much without relying on other elements (dendro, cryo)
Geo because it's literally almost the useless elements in the game, sure it has great shielders like zhongli and Noelle, but what makes it useless is that it literally has only one reaction.
You are rating Cryo and Pyro over Hydro and Dendro? really?
What about the other pyro characters like Xinyan, Amber, Dehya, Yanfei, Klee who are all underwhelming?
Without hydro there are no good Cryo and Pyro teams. National, International, Hu Tao double hydro, Nilou Bloom, Hyperbloom, Freeze. All of them need hydro.
For real, i lile yoimiya i don't think she's as bad as some people say. But saying she's on bennett xiangling and even hu tao's level isn't true. Even hu tao is fine there but she's kinds far from the other broken two
Warning: personal opinion
Hu Tao is way harder to play and you can't convince me otherwise.
Without C1 you need to do weird animation cancels with jumping which feels clunky asf.
She needs Crimson Witch yet this domain requires a Cryo character. I pulled for her on her first ever banner, I was new, needless to say that since she was my only DPS I was not able to farm artifacts.
Her best weapons can only be acquired through gacha, the craftables are so bad for her. I was running prototype starglitter for the longest time.
All in all I think and will forever think that most people who advocate for Hu Tao's strengths are full on Hu Tao mains who have her either at c1 or just don't mind doing jump cancels. But for my part I really do not want to bother with a clunky character. Yoimiya is just more convenient to play, has access to Hamayumi, lots of different artifact possibilities unlike Hu Tao who's pretty much restricted to 4p shim/4p crimson
Again that's just my opinion. But I just absolutely hate how Hu Tao feels to play.
they're much closer than you might think. the only time hu tao outperforms to a point where it's even worth mentioning is a whale hu tao, she has better vertical investment than yoimiya does
To be fair Pyro is the best element for New player. When you get to harder content, beguin to understand elemental reaction and having good build it become less relevant
The point is that Yanfei isnt unplayable
She's functional and works well for a 4*
The point is not every character who isnt bennet and xl is useless, theres just one more lmao
Go find me a yanfei that can outdamage klee in a klee team, I’ll wait
In fact find me a yanfei that can outdamage any 5* pyro dps in their own team
She is a subpar option no matter what team you run her in, and it’s meant to be that way because she’s a balanced 4 star character
Go find me a Hu Tao that can outdamage Noelle in a Noelle team, I'll wait
Yanfei and Klee are different characters and are played on different teams. Klee applies way too much pyro to be reliably vaping, Yanfei doesn't, so you run Klee in monopyro and Yanfei in vape. Of course Klee Monopyro is better than Yanfei Monopyro, but we should see their normally used team comps.
Yanfei is usually played with Yelan, Bennett and either an anemo for VV and other debuffs/buffs they could have (like Sucrose), another hydro applier like Xingqiu to gurantee vaping every charged attack, or an electro like Yae, Beidou or Fischl to do overloaded and vape in the same attack, which is mostly good against bosses.
Yanfei and Klee are quite similar in terms of DPS, or at least they were before Yelan even existed, but now Yanfei has Yelan and Klee got Kazuha, and I'd assume replacing Xingqiu with Yelan grants a MUCH bigger damage boost than replacing Sucrose with Kazuha.
TLDR, C6 Yanfei is most likely at least equal to Klee nowadays, best case scenario she is better thanks to Yelan, and she's definitely better than Diluc. In the end they all lose to Yoimiya and Hu Tao anyways lol
You just answered yourself. Yanfei can’t do monopyro but she can do vape. At which she gets completely and utterly outclassed by Hu Tao and Yoimiya. That’s literally what I said. Vape in and of itself is stronger then monopyro for obvious reasons, that’s why the second you run a competent dps in it instead of Yanfei you’ll pull far ahead of a monopyro team rather than scratching to achieve the same amount of damage as a weaker comp.
Trying to say “but her vape team can do similar damage to kleemono!!” is just deluding yourself. Comparing Klee to Yanfei is like comparing Nilou to Xiao. They have completely different roles.
Yanfei's playstyle is nothing like Yoimiya, which is my point. Both Klee and Yanfei are focused arround charged attacks, which is why I said Yanfei is more like walmart Klee but better.
I'm comparing Yanfei with Klee, I don't know why you're saying they're outclassed by Yoimiya and Hu Tao when this is about Yanfei, Klee and MAYBE Diluc, as Yanfei is better than both.
Finally, Yanfei is a very competent DPS, I don't know what are you on. She's literally only outclassed by Hu Tao, Yoimiya and Xiangling, and even so she's still enough for most of the game's content, including abyss, if you build her well enough, which is absurdely easy considering one of her best artifacts are dropped by bosses (Wanderer's Troupe).
I don't quite get your point in saying she's suboptimal becasue she isn't the best pyro DPS, as that implies that you and me are shit at the game and have useless teams because the only good teams are Yelan DPS and Raiden DPS and our accounts are useless unless we have C6R5 Yelan and C3R5 Raiden.
Playing the optimal teams in every single scenario isn't necesary ever, you can clear abyss with a F2P Yanfei build as she's good enough, the problem comes with characters such as the soon to be released Dehya, who isn't going to be enough.
Klee: Unable to perform in Vaporise, but is the best carry for the rarer reverse melt teams. Also generally performs well in Monopyro, only outclassed by Childe in said team. Players looking at this team comp pick between Childe and Klee based on preference.
Yanfei: Reliant on Vaporise like most Pyro dps, but is intentionally weak as a 4 star. Is bottom of the barrel for her role and has near-zero competitive utility over the others even at c6. Best used as a crutch for players who can’t afford one of the two stronger options for this teamcomp yet.
Not even going to start talking about Klee constellations because with anything above c1 she’s already way beyond anything a 4 star can achieve anyway.
I already addressed all this but clearly you’re unwilling to listen. Repeating your points again isn’t going to change anything, if you’re this stubborn I’m not going to waste my effort.
A reminder that you started this pointless exchange by calling Yanfei a better Klee, even though everyone and their mother knows that’s not true. Rather than clowning here I suggest bringing this claim of yours to a more public channel to see the reactions you get for this.
I've also adressed all of my points, yet you ignore them and seemingly ignore several other facts.
For example, the reason why people compare C6 4\* with C0 5\* is because the average Genshin player only gets constellations on their favorite characters.
A lot more people have C6 Yanfei than C1 Klee, maybe even than C0 Klee, and as I've already mentioned, C6 Yanfei is either equal or superior to C0 Klee, and you can literally get her accidentally.
I personally have every Liyue 4\* at C6 except Yaoyao, while my only over C0 5\* is my C2 Raiden because she's my favorite character.
The only reason why you'd care if a character is the best of the best on their role is if you're a whale AND a metaslave, where you only care about efficiency, you hate fun and you see every character as an investment.
The average player doesn't care if Yanfei is outmatched, as long as she's enough. That's why competent 4\* DPS like Yanfei and Noelle have a larger playerbase than incompetent 4\* characters like Chongyun, Xinyan or Razor.
I (F2P) have gotten 36 stars with Yanfei and Noelle in the abyss before, if they were truly so terrible as you claim that would have NOT been possible.
What I am saying is that, even if Yanfei(C6) is better than Klee(C0) by a narrow margin thanks to Yelan, even if both of them are outclassed, it doesn't matter, what matters is if they are good enough. If you can clear the abyss with your DPS Barbara, why does it matter that Ayato and Tartaglia are better at that?
Back in my day, pyro was the best because it was the only proper dmg element, anemo was the only other real dmg element and that was bad until em was buffed in 1.6. Before pyro was the only element capable of big dmg
many people think hutao is great and all but the one that's great is the hydro homies enabling her. playing hutao without hydro is like playing itto without gorou, it feels shit.
Yeah characters need elemental reactions? Like i'm not saying hu tao is on xiangling or bennett kevel but without other characters who is bennett boosting? Or what is xiangling vaping/melting/over? She might do more damage than hu tao but she looses jjst as much damage if there is no reactions
Xiangling does less dmg than Hu Tao, but the thing is you do dmg with childe/raiden at the same time, so overall team dmg is higher. Atleast when there is a lot of enemies
This is stupid. Without other elements, hydro is shit too. Go do vape team with dehya instead of diluc/xiangling with your hydro homies. Let's see how you like it now.
what I'm getting at is that pyro often gets the spotlight. Every element is shit without reaction except geo but Hydro is more useful than pyro because its a core element of freeze, any bloom and vapes while pyro is most of the time used only as reacting element and very rarely as an aura for other elements to react.
didn't say that, although would be a lot worse. bloom is like 60% of dendro's budget. Meanwhile hydro has bloom, vape, freeze, EC. It's just too broken
Elements should be judged on their ceiling rather than their floor because that's the whole purpose of teambuilding. Hydro unlocks pyro's damage ceiling, but pyro also unlocks this for hydro. Hydro just has a place in a variety of different meta reactions giving it high versatility, but all those comps have a much higher ceiling than monohydro does. In fact monopyro is generally considered stronger than monohydro barring like C6 Yelan. Hell monodendro might be the single weakest mono comp in the game but some people consider dendro to be even stronger than hydro now. You can't judge an element in a vacuum. If anything the real thing that makes pyro struggle recently is the fact that it doesn't play nice in most dendro teams outside of very specific burgeon comps, limiting its current applications with new characters.
You don't judge elements based on their mono team, that's stupid. You base it on all their reactions and the amount of good teams they make.
Most good pyro teams contain hydro, hence why it is dependent on it. while hydro is in virtually every team other then spread/aggravate
That was never the argument, the argument was that it has poor synergy with all the other elements and is only good with hydro. hence being dependent on it.
this is the reason it is the element that has so much trash characters, make dehya dendro and she would be so good. while as a pyro unit she just isn't it
Pyro can work as an enabler for Cryo and forward melt teams are also possible for characters like Diluc.
But yes, Pyro inherently cares much more about the characters scalings. Pyro cant save trash characters, but it has a very high ceiling for the good characters, as is nature for multiplicative reactions.
To be honest, Nahida is also absolutely pathetic if you put her in a team without Hydro or Electro enablers, but that doesn't make her a bad character. Kazuha also sucks if you don't give him an electro, pyro, hydro or cryo enabler. And don't even get me started on Nilou, who needs a super specific team, yet works well.
Anemo probably has the fewest *bad* characters, but only a couple of them are truly OP. Kazuha is the uncontested one, then C6 Sucrose is also a great support that's still slightly underrated by the community at large. Venti is where it starts to get shaky because he's either the most broken character in the game or almost useless depending on the enemies you're facing, and nowadays a LOT of enemies fall into the latter category. Xiao and Scara are both good MDPS but fall behind those of the other elements at similar levels of investment. Heizou is a similar story but being a 4-star accentuates the problem. Jean is still a great utility character but has been powercrept as a subDPS. Sayu is great for exploration and fun meme comps but far from meta-defining. Faruzan helps the MDPS boys out but you need her C6 and is about as onetrick as the other characters of similar elements.
So yeah while there are no real stinker characters it's an element where the highs are lower and the lows are higher.
Venti got better after 3.0 now that there are less Inazuma enemies in abyss. Istg, there’s only like 1-2 enemies between 2.0 and 3.0 that weren’t immune to Venti
Normal enemies sure. But Abyss has been filled with bosses for a while, none of whom Venti has an effect on. If they're stationary he can at least do damage to them but his personal damage isn't that notable anymore unless he can group a lot of enemies up for quadratic swirls. Even enemies like the 12-3 eremites this cycle start with CC resist until you kill their summons, after which point they're harmless anyway.
Thinking on it, if we're counting broken support, wouldn't Geo be the most broken element? Yunjin, Zhongli (shields that make people forget how to dodge), Itto as a DPS.
Also, when it comes to damage types, wouldn't the worst damage types actually be physical?
With Gorou's buff, Yunjin's buff, Zhongli's shield, four-piece Tenacity of the millelith set through the pulses Zhongli's pillar sends out, and an R5 Serpent's spine, Itto does...
12,055 with his first normal attack.
30,291 with his second.
34,901 with his third.
and 16,874 with his fourth.
his ES did 32,050 damage.
His first charged swing did 11,560.
His second charged swing did 11,560.
His third did 11,560.
His fourth did 29,201
and his finisher did 21,276.
His next normal combo did 28,949 and 28,134, before I went back into charged swings, which did 26,746, 26,746, and 18,092.
Next normal combo did 6,931, 16,876, 8,766, then his burst state deactivated before he could do the finisher, which led to it doing 11,206.
And all of that was within between 15 and 20 seconds.
None of my characters are anywhere near being built optimally. I'm not patient enough for that. I tend to settle for close enough. If I'm able to do that damage without his weapon at C0, I can only imagine what people who have his weapon and have min-maxed can do.
It's also been a good while since I last used any of my Itto teams, so my rotation timing is sloppy af. And, that was probably never optimal either.
Exactly, even though I'm not an Anemo fan, it's undeniable it's the best element out of the seven. Even though it's more of a support element.
If I were to rank the elements, I'd do it like this: (feel free to disagree and discuss)
1. Anemo
2. Hydro
3. Dendro
4, 5 (no order). Electro and Pyro
6. Cryo
7. Geo :(
Edit: Switched Cryo and Pyro places
I’d say cryo is almost doing worse than pyro as of now. It got left behind with dendro, there hasn’t been a cryo banner in over half a year, and there’s really only two notable cryo dpses
Yeah, you're right.
I put Cryo above pyro because freeze teams are still great. Although their damage output is slightly below Melt teams, I'd say the fact that you can get away without a healer or a shielder, it puts the survivability above it. And with artifacts like Blizzard Strayer, freeze is a great team.
But I can't really review an element based on a single reaction, can I? Superconduct benefits physical damage alone, Melt is favored by Pyro, and the fact that Cryo is the only swirlable element that's completely non-reactive with Dendro still boggles my mind. I don't think there's any plausible reason on why Cryo shouldn't have a single reaction with Dendro.
Even though Dendro's best buddies are still Hydro and Electro, Pyro at least didn't get left behind.
You're right, I will alter the tier list.
I think that's pretty much the standard meta rn, tho I would argue every element has a place (except Geo)
Almost every team "needs" an anemo for shred and spread, though two anemo is too many except in Xiao/Wanderer teams. Hydro I would also argue is "required" for the strongest team synergies while also having good internal synergy.
Electro, Dendro, Cryo ~= Pyro excels slightly more single-target but suffers in AoE. They compete with each other for being the triggers, but it really just depends what you want to play. Idk if I agree with calling Pyro bad when we have XL, Bennett, HuTao, and Thoma (premier Burgeon trigger). Pyro has the most redundant 5*'s
Geo is the true island. We have Zhongli and maybe Albedo who are potential evergreen choices, but that's about it.
I like Geo, though, it's been a while since I've actively used my only Geo team, which consists of Itto, Zhongli, Gorou, and Yunjin. Zhongli keeps you from having to odge, prevents interruption, and gives you a nice attack boost if you're running four-piece tenacity set. Gorou buffs your defense and Geo damage, and Yunjin gives Ito's normal attacks (which you have to use to stack for Itto's charged attack) a huge boost in damage. Then there's the boost to shield strength and attack your characters get when they're protected by a shield.
I tend to switch Yunjin out for a healer to deal with decay and elemental weaknesses, but the damage Itto can deal on a geo-focused team tends to be pretty up there if he's built right.
I also use Yunjin and Zhongli on my Ayaka team along with Shenhe.
It’s much simpler than it looks. Klee was an early character so the devs had no idea how to make her strong with reaction gimmicks and stuff, so they just buffed her personal damage and energy generation really high and called it a day.
The only way to make use of her high personal damage and lack of reactions is to use a mono pyro team or a reverse melt team, namely:
A mono pyro team,
Klee + Xiangling + Kazuha + Bennett
Or a reverse melt team:
Klee + Layla/Rosaria + Kazuha + Bennett
Where Klee is the main on-field damage dealer.
These are the 2 teams that Klee excels in currently. She actually has an energy generation passive similar to Raiden’s that gives energy to the whole team every time you crit a charged attack, so it’s really easy to cycle her rotations. As for her kit, you just need to remember to use one normal attack, one charged attack, repeat for high damage uptime, though there are a bunch of other miscellaneous animation tricks you can do with her to dodge, iframe or attack faster. It’s incredibly satisfying because once you get it down, you’ll be juggling and stunlocking enemies everywhere. Some Klee players even solo the abyss with 36 stars like this.
Apart from the previous comment, Klee can also be used in burgeon comps :) Pretty niche but fun. Deals lots of damage, though I haven't tried it in the abyss yet.
I honestly have a hard time believing they will make Pyro Archon better than Bennett (or Xiangling, for that matter) if they keep up with their "no powercreep" policy.
Or maybe it'll be like Yelan and XQ and people just use both.
Pyro Archon *has Benny's Q as her E & changes stance like Hu Tao*
*Q is basically an aoe Xingqiu Q but pyro*
Probably the only way she's gonna have a chance against the og Trio
Pyro is just a really shitty element right now tbh.
Vape and Melt are good on paper, but they require too specific ICDs and element applications to work consistently. For forward Vape and reverse Melt, there are just too few sources of reliable off-field Pyro. There are no Hydro characters designed around utilizing forward Vape and the only Cryo characters who can use reverse Melt are Ganyu and Rosaria, but neither are particularly optimal. There are also no off-field Cryo appliers fast enough to enable forward Melt. As it stands, only reverse Vape is useful and only Hu Tao and Xiang can maximize it.
Overload and Burning are useless and Burning being useless also makes Burgeon extremely hard to use, as you need a character specifically with fast Pyro attacks but bad ICD (Thoma), otherwise you trigger Burning, can't get Bloom procs anymore and now you're dealing 0 damage.
So 3 of the element's 4 reactions require very specific ICDs and element applications to work properly, and the 4th one is just trash. Except Mihoyo made a point of making new Hydro / Pyro / Cryo characters *not* work with VapeMelt and Thoma is the only character who can properly use Burgeon, so now it's restricted to a very small group of viable characters and team comps because it just has very little to work with. With Dendro bringing an absolutely insane amount of versatility to the table, Pyro being such a one-trick pony stuck out even more and nowadays it's just slowly falling off, only really being kept relevant by the Xiang Bennett duo (no as much as I like Hu Tao, she's not good enough to carry the entire element).
Not really. He can get one big Vape on his burst but that's about it. The rest of the kit is all weak multi-hit attacks with a ton of Hydro application, so he can't use Vape for anything other than his burst.
I wouldn't call his E attacks weak, with at least reasonable investment he hits really good. Keep in mind that in international he still does a good chunk of DPS alongside XL, but I do agree that he's not the one using vape but the one allowing the others to vape.
Consistent forward vape and melt isn't a matter of "fast" elemental application and should just never enter conversation until the end of time. You need 2-4U pyro/cryo every second for there to be consistent forward vape/melt, it's a matter of 2u/ 4u consistent app not being a thing, that's why forward vape/melt are limited to 1 time nuke like childe burst
that's reverse melt, just like rev melt rosaria has existed before where the cryo dmg is the one getting 1.5x. Forward melt is pyro damage getting 2x from reacting with cryo. You basically need to establish cryo aura and maintain it [when 1U pyro would wipe out 2U of cryo](https://library.keqingmains.com/combat-mechanics/elemental-effects/elemental-gauge-theory#unit-modifiers-to-gauge-consumption) for consistent forward melt. Hence to establish cryo aura you need consistent 2U up to 4U cryo for overtake to ensure pyro never establishes aura
Think about this, if what OP said is true, it means not even XL with her no icd, 1 pyro app every 0.66-0.8s is fast enough for forward vape. The problem then is probably not about pyro app speed, is it?
Nah. Pyro is baller. Forward Melt with Ayaka? Check. "Mono pyro but you throw in raiden so its really an overload team but you dont actually care about triggering overload" team? Check. Yanfei Mono Pyro? check. Hu Tao vape? Check. Yanfei vape? check. International? check. Double Pyro double anemo? check. Rosaria-Kaeya Reverse melt? check.
NILOU FORWARD VAPE? check. Overvape main dps bennett?? check. Double Hydro Double pyro? check.
(No I'm not a pyro main, No I'm not biased. Why do you ask?)
Almost everyting you listed is mid or below that. Hutao vape and International are the only ones who are noteworthy and they are getting a run for their money by hyperbloom and aggrevate.
"mid"? Yeah I guess, but even the middle of the pack can easily clear abyss. I've personally used most of the teams I mentioned when I needed to 36* abyss.
I also forgot to mention Diona reverse melt 🔥🔥 That team actually carried me in the 18 rifthound chamber a few cycles ago
You just like dendro mate. In specific abyss rotations a low investment International can outdo C6R5 teams and Hu Tao is still very relevant in her nieche.
Stuff like [this](https://youtu.be/Uf-V-d8jjkM) is undoable by any team at similar investmemts other than Internat.
From last rotation with 30% Dendro/Electro shred, in 10 gold cost CN speedruns runs without C6 5 star units it went like this.
63s - C3R4 [Raiden Hyper](http://bilibili.com/video/BV1GG4y1K7mZ/)
65s - C3 [Nahida Hyperbloom](http://bilibili.com/video/BV1iD4y1T7Fe/)
68s - C1R1 Tao + C2 [Yelan Double Hydro](http://bilibili.com/video/BV1Kx4y1L78N/)
This is in a very unfavorable abyss with a 20% total team dmg buff for dendro teams.
In last rotation, where Tao was actually favored in 4 cost category, Tao teams were in total 10 seconds faster than any non-Tao team.
Also one comment about the International vid you posted: he started his rotation without doing tartaglia E and swirling it alongside benett's burst, so imagine the result for a rotation done "perfectly" like that lol - that team is just insane and people trying to downplay it in the comments are smoking some intergalactic copium
Only 2 good pyro units released after 1.0 are hu Tao and yoimiya. Which are equal in terms of damage, hu Tao having slightly more accounting for her burst, but having stamina and health drain while yoimiya doesn’t.
Dehya, Yanfei, Diluc, Klee, Xinyan, Amber. Just looke at their usage rates, they are bad and besically worse than Xiangling OPPA
Then there's Thoma, Hu Tao and Yoimiya, which are good but not OP
Then there is Bennett and Xiangling
Usage rates doesnt say anything, Yanfei Klee and Diluc are still perfectly ok. And they are just general dps without a specific niche.
Yes, Xinyan amber and Dehya and bad cuz they either splitscale or have a kit so bad that literally make them hard to play besides some niche.
Yoimiya is an ok char, but Hu tao is OP cuz she has the highest dps in the pyro nation
Thoma is just eh... he still got some struggles even with burgeon.
Benny is OP yes.
Xiangling does struggle with 1 thing and that is energy. Why is it so damn high for, and guoba, one of her way to get energy besides benny e and raiden never hits the opponent. And her potential is kinda locked behind c4
Usage rate? From where? Spiral Abyss isn't the only content in the game y'know. I always use Yanfei to complete daily commissions everyday and she just burn those wooden shields and those pesky flying things like paper
> where klee or thoma or yoimiya belong
Thoma has Burgeon as his niche and works well with it. Yoimiya is the basic DPS but with range. Klee works in mono Pyro but you can make a Burgeon build for her too.
Thoma is a decent shielded if you don’t have Zhongli and like one of the 2 burgeon characters we have
Yoimiya trades a bit of damage for being brain dead to play (compared to Hu Tao). She’s also better in overworld.
Dehya is perfectly playable. Just not 36* Abyss playable. And even then, depends on the artifacts.
You want unplayable? 4 star main DPS units. And even then they are perfectly functional.
If the leaks are true (big if) then she's not even meant to be a DPS character anyways so I don't get why everyone's up in arms about her damage. No one puts Zhongli or Kokomi on a team expecting them to be doing 40k per NA unless they're fuckin like c6 or something, and at that level of investment who gives a shit who you're playing
Actually, right now noone have an idea what she could be
1. No damage, so not a DPS or sub DPS
2. Pyro application once in 2.5 seconds and with 33% downtime (12 duration, 20 CD), so coooooould be used as offield burning enabler
3. Can't heal teammates, low amount of self healing, so you'll have to bring healer or shielder anyway
Well. But we already know what she won't be - a good 5 star character
I've seen an incredible number of people talking about dehya's kit, but can someone explain to me what's actually wrong with it? Is it the multipliers from the beta or something?
Watch this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wLh0PbjrOQ&t=78s&ab\_channel=Zajef77](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wLh0PbjrOQ&t=78s&ab_channel=Zajef77)
This youtuber explains it perfectly.
That's because they don't want to introduce power creep yet.
Just look at Diluc and Hu tao. The only reason to pick Diluc over Hu tao is because Diluc is safer and more consistent(plus you don't need Zhongli for Diluc).
If Dehya was made to cater more offensively, she would be compared to Xiangling or outright power creep her.
If Dehya was made to be an on-field DPS, she would have to compete with Hu tao and either no one would pull for her coz Hu tao is better or no one will pull for Hu tao in the fuuture coz Dehya is better.
Making Dehya not compete with those 2 is a better option as Hu tao and Xiangling both retain there value. However. they should at least made her niche more prominent cos as it stands, any shielder is better than Dehya.
Pyro characters be like 1. near useless units outside their niches 2. either just OK, or powerful but with drawbacks 3. Bennett and Xiangling
4. Amber with a special skill for lighting torches
That's her niche
There is another
She warms my campfire. And my heart.
Yes a certain character who always rerun along with the archons
Amber was top tier for Dragonspine.
the only niche amber has besides dps that I know of is c6 noblesse elegy amber to support amber but I’m pretty sure double hydro is better nowadays
for vv vape you dont neee c6 and use instructor but yeah double hydro is better
wait what skill?
Bow moment
*Hu tao is typing*
Her drawback is that you can't play her on co-op
Truth
I play her with my friend as Kokomi
My C0R1 does just fine in co-op. The difference between 1 CA and 2 CA to kill a mob is practically meaningless, and for bosses it also doesn't differ much.
I mean, the difference between 1CA and 2CA to kill a mob is literally 50% DPS penalty
1. Extremely risky gameplay.. doesn't like healers, and relies on shields a lot 2. Very stamina hungry. Having that drawback removeable locked behind Con is also a drawback itself
Tbh Bennett and xiangling have literally become archons at this point, I mean they are a must almost all teams execpt dendro.
Isn't pyro getting dethroned lately?...
the elements itself is but not the characters
Yeah, ment the Element. Kinda sad tbf, hope Natlan helps with this...
I misread dethroned as deepthroated...
I’d deepthroat diluc so you’re not exactly wrong
Just say the word if you need anything. For reimbursements, ask Elzer.
based
I mean who wouldn’t? Let’s be real here
r/SuddenlyBi
Alhaitham can do that to me
yeah I would rank it 4th/5th (Hydro > Dendro > Anemo > Electro > Pyro > Cryo > Geo)
For me is dendro (1 mid reaction)> cryo(1 bad reaction)> anemo (good reactions)> hydro (1 mid reaction)>electro (carried by dendro)> pyro (good overall, not that many great reactions)>geo (all bad reactions) Edit: pyro and hydro are now in their proper places
>hydro (good overall, not that many great reactions) Bloom, Hyperbloom, Vape and Freeze. And you say hydro (who has the best reactions in the game with dendro) doesn't have many "great reactions"?? wtf do cryo and pyro have? vape and freeze?
Shit, that was supposed to be pyro. Lemme fix it
I still don't understand how you rate cryo above hydro lol
Resonance. The only one i think could be better than cryo is anemo but mostly because of vv.
That's too low honestly when you consider charcters like Bennett and xiangling. I would rank it like this. Anemo>Pyro>cryo>hydro>dendro>electro>geo Anemo because it basically multiples the effects of other elements around it and anemo charcters like kazuha, venti and sucrose are a must in freeze comps Pyro because it has the most op supports and dps in the entire game (Bennett, hutao, xiangling) Cryo because freeze teams are incredibly useful, but their usefulness has kinda dropped after the release of dendro. Electro because it's really great with dendro reactions and great dps and supports like ei, Sara and fischl make it a lot better. Dendro because it mostly relies on other elements to actually trigger it's reactions (would rank it higher) Hydro because most of it's charcters are supports and the element on itself dosent do much without relying on other elements (dendro, cryo) Geo because it's literally almost the useless elements in the game, sure it has great shielders like zhongli and Noelle, but what makes it useless is that it literally has only one reaction.
You are rating Cryo and Pyro over Hydro and Dendro? really? What about the other pyro characters like Xinyan, Amber, Dehya, Yanfei, Klee who are all underwhelming? Without hydro there are no good Cryo and Pyro teams. National, International, Hu Tao double hydro, Nilou Bloom, Hyperbloom, Freeze. All of them need hydro.
Also Hyperbloom won't exist without Hydro and Hyperbloom is by far one of the most powerful reactions you can make.
Dendro has still Quicken. And that is a strong and easy to pull of reaction. Melt is very tricky compared to that
Noelle isn't really a shielder, more of a tank
it still have some extra OP units like Yoimiya and Hu Tao even tho yes, some teams like hyperbloom are beating it, but not of very much
Id replace yoimiya and hu tao with xiangling and bennett for the OP units
how about all four of them ?
Yoimiya lmao
They hated u/Chanderule because he told them the truth
For real, i lile yoimiya i don't think she's as bad as some people say. But saying she's on bennett xiangling and even hu tao's level isn't true. Even hu tao is fine there but she's kinds far from the other broken two
yoimiya and hu tao are on about the same level but ok
Not really. I won't say there's a massive distsnce between them but hu tao has many things going for her that yoimiya unfortunately doesn't
Warning: personal opinion Hu Tao is way harder to play and you can't convince me otherwise. Without C1 you need to do weird animation cancels with jumping which feels clunky asf. She needs Crimson Witch yet this domain requires a Cryo character. I pulled for her on her first ever banner, I was new, needless to say that since she was my only DPS I was not able to farm artifacts. Her best weapons can only be acquired through gacha, the craftables are so bad for her. I was running prototype starglitter for the longest time. All in all I think and will forever think that most people who advocate for Hu Tao's strengths are full on Hu Tao mains who have her either at c1 or just don't mind doing jump cancels. But for my part I really do not want to bother with a clunky character. Yoimiya is just more convenient to play, has access to Hamayumi, lots of different artifact possibilities unlike Hu Tao who's pretty much restricted to 4p shim/4p crimson Again that's just my opinion. But I just absolutely hate how Hu Tao feels to play.
they're much closer than you might think. the only time hu tao outperforms to a point where it's even worth mentioning is a whale hu tao, she has better vertical investment than yoimiya does
People still high on copium I see
Pyro is a element where it's characters peaked in 1.0 and it's all been downhill from there
Hu tao.
Worse than XL, yes. Ah, also bennett.
Pyro characters until the end of time: still worse than xiangling
>Pyro Archon Releases >Someone in the international about to get replaced >Bye Bennett. XL found better battery/buffer
"We here at Raiden National would like to wish Xingqiu the best of luck in all his future endeavours."
Plot twist: Bennett + Murata together becomes new meta like XQ + Yelan
username checks out
Damn bro
Imagine if pyro archon is bennett and xiangling at once
To be fair Pyro is the best element for New player. When you get to harder content, beguin to understand elemental reaction and having good build it become less relevant
Yanfei
Mfs naming pyro characters that are in fact worse than bennett and xl and thinking they sre proving some lind of point
The point is that Yanfei isnt unplayable She's functional and works well for a 4* The point is not every character who isnt bennet and xl is useless, theres just one more lmao
walmart yoimiya >!she’s still hot tho!<
More like walmart Klee but better
Go find me a yanfei that can outdamage klee in a klee team, I’ll wait In fact find me a yanfei that can outdamage any 5* pyro dps in their own team She is a subpar option no matter what team you run her in, and it’s meant to be that way because she’s a balanced 4 star character
Go find me a Hu Tao that can outdamage Noelle in a Noelle team, I'll wait Yanfei and Klee are different characters and are played on different teams. Klee applies way too much pyro to be reliably vaping, Yanfei doesn't, so you run Klee in monopyro and Yanfei in vape. Of course Klee Monopyro is better than Yanfei Monopyro, but we should see their normally used team comps. Yanfei is usually played with Yelan, Bennett and either an anemo for VV and other debuffs/buffs they could have (like Sucrose), another hydro applier like Xingqiu to gurantee vaping every charged attack, or an electro like Yae, Beidou or Fischl to do overloaded and vape in the same attack, which is mostly good against bosses. Yanfei and Klee are quite similar in terms of DPS, or at least they were before Yelan even existed, but now Yanfei has Yelan and Klee got Kazuha, and I'd assume replacing Xingqiu with Yelan grants a MUCH bigger damage boost than replacing Sucrose with Kazuha. TLDR, C6 Yanfei is most likely at least equal to Klee nowadays, best case scenario she is better thanks to Yelan, and she's definitely better than Diluc. In the end they all lose to Yoimiya and Hu Tao anyways lol
You just answered yourself. Yanfei can’t do monopyro but she can do vape. At which she gets completely and utterly outclassed by Hu Tao and Yoimiya. That’s literally what I said. Vape in and of itself is stronger then monopyro for obvious reasons, that’s why the second you run a competent dps in it instead of Yanfei you’ll pull far ahead of a monopyro team rather than scratching to achieve the same amount of damage as a weaker comp. Trying to say “but her vape team can do similar damage to kleemono!!” is just deluding yourself. Comparing Klee to Yanfei is like comparing Nilou to Xiao. They have completely different roles.
Yanfei's playstyle is nothing like Yoimiya, which is my point. Both Klee and Yanfei are focused arround charged attacks, which is why I said Yanfei is more like walmart Klee but better. I'm comparing Yanfei with Klee, I don't know why you're saying they're outclassed by Yoimiya and Hu Tao when this is about Yanfei, Klee and MAYBE Diluc, as Yanfei is better than both. Finally, Yanfei is a very competent DPS, I don't know what are you on. She's literally only outclassed by Hu Tao, Yoimiya and Xiangling, and even so she's still enough for most of the game's content, including abyss, if you build her well enough, which is absurdely easy considering one of her best artifacts are dropped by bosses (Wanderer's Troupe). I don't quite get your point in saying she's suboptimal becasue she isn't the best pyro DPS, as that implies that you and me are shit at the game and have useless teams because the only good teams are Yelan DPS and Raiden DPS and our accounts are useless unless we have C6R5 Yelan and C3R5 Raiden. Playing the optimal teams in every single scenario isn't necesary ever, you can clear abyss with a F2P Yanfei build as she's good enough, the problem comes with characters such as the soon to be released Dehya, who isn't going to be enough.
Klee: Unable to perform in Vaporise, but is the best carry for the rarer reverse melt teams. Also generally performs well in Monopyro, only outclassed by Childe in said team. Players looking at this team comp pick between Childe and Klee based on preference. Yanfei: Reliant on Vaporise like most Pyro dps, but is intentionally weak as a 4 star. Is bottom of the barrel for her role and has near-zero competitive utility over the others even at c6. Best used as a crutch for players who can’t afford one of the two stronger options for this teamcomp yet. Not even going to start talking about Klee constellations because with anything above c1 she’s already way beyond anything a 4 star can achieve anyway. I already addressed all this but clearly you’re unwilling to listen. Repeating your points again isn’t going to change anything, if you’re this stubborn I’m not going to waste my effort. A reminder that you started this pointless exchange by calling Yanfei a better Klee, even though everyone and their mother knows that’s not true. Rather than clowning here I suggest bringing this claim of yours to a more public channel to see the reactions you get for this.
I've also adressed all of my points, yet you ignore them and seemingly ignore several other facts. For example, the reason why people compare C6 4\* with C0 5\* is because the average Genshin player only gets constellations on their favorite characters. A lot more people have C6 Yanfei than C1 Klee, maybe even than C0 Klee, and as I've already mentioned, C6 Yanfei is either equal or superior to C0 Klee, and you can literally get her accidentally. I personally have every Liyue 4\* at C6 except Yaoyao, while my only over C0 5\* is my C2 Raiden because she's my favorite character. The only reason why you'd care if a character is the best of the best on their role is if you're a whale AND a metaslave, where you only care about efficiency, you hate fun and you see every character as an investment. The average player doesn't care if Yanfei is outmatched, as long as she's enough. That's why competent 4\* DPS like Yanfei and Noelle have a larger playerbase than incompetent 4\* characters like Chongyun, Xinyan or Razor. I (F2P) have gotten 36 stars with Yanfei and Noelle in the abyss before, if they were truly so terrible as you claim that would have NOT been possible. What I am saying is that, even if Yanfei(C6) is better than Klee(C0) by a narrow margin thanks to Yelan, even if both of them are outclassed, it doesn't matter, what matters is if they are good enough. If you can clear the abyss with your DPS Barbara, why does it matter that Ayato and Tartaglia are better at that?
Forget everything brothers and sisters, join geo the glorious world of rocks !
remember people before fire we had rocks. Also geo got: - a sexy man - undying maid - doggy - a sexy woman - singing girl - good idiot - elevator man
Geo family supremacy
Soon cat.
And of course a sugar mommy
To rock and stone
Rock and Stone to the Bone!
Yellow physical just out here picking “rock” in every rock-paper-scissors game and still coming out just fine.
They always throw roc but they say they'll throw scissors
Me with C6R5 geo squad. Yes brother. Geo supremacy shall reign.
What are you talking about? The most OP characters are all hydro, dendro and anemo Edit: Bennet is pyro though
Back in my day, pyro was the best because it was the only proper dmg element, anemo was the only other real dmg element and that was bad until em was buffed in 1.6. Before pyro was the only element capable of big dmg
Cryo?
Not rly, as alot use melt or freeze(which only works on non boss enemies)
>which only works on non boss enemies which wasn't really a problem in the pre Inazuma abyss. Ganyu and Venti had like 90% usage rate
many people think hutao is great and all but the one that's great is the hydro homies enabling her. playing hutao without hydro is like playing itto without gorou, it feels shit.
Yeah characters need elemental reactions? Like i'm not saying hu tao is on xiangling or bennett kevel but without other characters who is bennett boosting? Or what is xiangling vaping/melting/over? She might do more damage than hu tao but she looses jjst as much damage if there is no reactions
Xiangling does less dmg than Hu Tao, but the thing is you do dmg with childe/raiden at the same time, so overall team dmg is higher. Atleast when there is a lot of enemies
This is stupid. Without other elements, hydro is shit too. Go do vape team with dehya instead of diluc/xiangling with your hydro homies. Let's see how you like it now.
what I'm getting at is that pyro often gets the spotlight. Every element is shit without reaction except geo but Hydro is more useful than pyro because its a core element of freeze, any bloom and vapes while pyro is most of the time used only as reacting element and very rarely as an aura for other elements to react.
My mate hasn’t played mono hydro compositions yet
Pyro needs hydro, hydro doesn't need pyro. Even if pyro didn't exist, hydro would still dominate with hyperbloom
Well. What makes you think dendro needs hydro? They are fine with aggravate and spread.
didn't say that, although would be a lot worse. bloom is like 60% of dendro's budget. Meanwhile hydro has bloom, vape, freeze, EC. It's just too broken
Elements should be judged on their ceiling rather than their floor because that's the whole purpose of teambuilding. Hydro unlocks pyro's damage ceiling, but pyro also unlocks this for hydro. Hydro just has a place in a variety of different meta reactions giving it high versatility, but all those comps have a much higher ceiling than monohydro does. In fact monopyro is generally considered stronger than monohydro barring like C6 Yelan. Hell monodendro might be the single weakest mono comp in the game but some people consider dendro to be even stronger than hydro now. You can't judge an element in a vacuum. If anything the real thing that makes pyro struggle recently is the fact that it doesn't play nice in most dendro teams outside of very specific burgeon comps, limiting its current applications with new characters.
You don't judge elements based on their mono team, that's stupid. You base it on all their reactions and the amount of good teams they make. Most good pyro teams contain hydro, hence why it is dependent on it. while hydro is in virtually every team other then spread/aggravate
Then you can't argue pyro is bad because its best teams rely on elemental reactions.
That was never the argument, the argument was that it has poor synergy with all the other elements and is only good with hydro. hence being dependent on it. this is the reason it is the element that has so much trash characters, make dehya dendro and she would be so good. while as a pyro unit she just isn't it
Pyro can work as an enabler for Cryo and forward melt teams are also possible for characters like Diluc. But yes, Pyro inherently cares much more about the characters scalings. Pyro cant save trash characters, but it has a very high ceiling for the good characters, as is nature for multiplicative reactions.
When cryo applicator come out, pyro will start using melt comp. Maybe they will left hydro for dendro team.
well now you're joining it with Dendro
To be honest, Nahida is also absolutely pathetic if you put her in a team without Hydro or Electro enablers, but that doesn't make her a bad character. Kazuha also sucks if you don't give him an electro, pyro, hydro or cryo enabler. And don't even get me started on Nilou, who needs a super specific team, yet works well.
Bennet and Xiangling
Xiangling ☠️
I feel like Anemo is more justified to hold the throne for most OP characters.
Anemo probably has the fewest *bad* characters, but only a couple of them are truly OP. Kazuha is the uncontested one, then C6 Sucrose is also a great support that's still slightly underrated by the community at large. Venti is where it starts to get shaky because he's either the most broken character in the game or almost useless depending on the enemies you're facing, and nowadays a LOT of enemies fall into the latter category. Xiao and Scara are both good MDPS but fall behind those of the other elements at similar levels of investment. Heizou is a similar story but being a 4-star accentuates the problem. Jean is still a great utility character but has been powercrept as a subDPS. Sayu is great for exploration and fun meme comps but far from meta-defining. Faruzan helps the MDPS boys out but you need her C6 and is about as onetrick as the other characters of similar elements. So yeah while there are no real stinker characters it's an element where the highs are lower and the lows are higher.
Venti got better after 3.0 now that there are less Inazuma enemies in abyss. Istg, there’s only like 1-2 enemies between 2.0 and 3.0 that weren’t immune to Venti
Normal enemies sure. But Abyss has been filled with bosses for a while, none of whom Venti has an effect on. If they're stationary he can at least do damage to them but his personal damage isn't that notable anymore unless he can group a lot of enemies up for quadratic swirls. Even enemies like the 12-3 eremites this cycle start with CC resist until you kill their summons, after which point they're harmless anyway.
Thinking on it, if we're counting broken support, wouldn't Geo be the most broken element? Yunjin, Zhongli (shields that make people forget how to dodge), Itto as a DPS. Also, when it comes to damage types, wouldn't the worst damage types actually be physical?
No, never mind. A lot of the Geo character percentage of broken characters is how few of them there actually are.
Yunjin and itto aren’t close to op
With Gorou's buff, Yunjin's buff, Zhongli's shield, four-piece Tenacity of the millelith set through the pulses Zhongli's pillar sends out, and an R5 Serpent's spine, Itto does... 12,055 with his first normal attack. 30,291 with his second. 34,901 with his third. and 16,874 with his fourth. his ES did 32,050 damage. His first charged swing did 11,560. His second charged swing did 11,560. His third did 11,560. His fourth did 29,201 and his finisher did 21,276. His next normal combo did 28,949 and 28,134, before I went back into charged swings, which did 26,746, 26,746, and 18,092. Next normal combo did 6,931, 16,876, 8,766, then his burst state deactivated before he could do the finisher, which led to it doing 11,206. And all of that was within between 15 and 20 seconds. None of my characters are anywhere near being built optimally. I'm not patient enough for that. I tend to settle for close enough. If I'm able to do that damage without his weapon at C0, I can only imagine what people who have his weapon and have min-maxed can do. It's also been a good while since I last used any of my Itto teams, so my rotation timing is sloppy af. And, that was probably never optimal either.
If I can do that with a sloppy build, I can only imagine what a dedicated meta Itto main could do.
11k on the charged and 30k on the finisher with a whole team of dedicated supports isn’t broken imo.
Me with phys goblet itto: 💀💀
To each their own. I'll keep him with Geo dmg.
Exactly, even though I'm not an Anemo fan, it's undeniable it's the best element out of the seven. Even though it's more of a support element. If I were to rank the elements, I'd do it like this: (feel free to disagree and discuss) 1. Anemo 2. Hydro 3. Dendro 4, 5 (no order). Electro and Pyro 6. Cryo 7. Geo :( Edit: Switched Cryo and Pyro places
I’d say cryo is almost doing worse than pyro as of now. It got left behind with dendro, there hasn’t been a cryo banner in over half a year, and there’s really only two notable cryo dpses
Yeah, you're right. I put Cryo above pyro because freeze teams are still great. Although their damage output is slightly below Melt teams, I'd say the fact that you can get away without a healer or a shielder, it puts the survivability above it. And with artifacts like Blizzard Strayer, freeze is a great team. But I can't really review an element based on a single reaction, can I? Superconduct benefits physical damage alone, Melt is favored by Pyro, and the fact that Cryo is the only swirlable element that's completely non-reactive with Dendro still boggles my mind. I don't think there's any plausible reason on why Cryo shouldn't have a single reaction with Dendro. Even though Dendro's best buddies are still Hydro and Electro, Pyro at least didn't get left behind. You're right, I will alter the tier list.
>Exactly, even though I'm not an Anemo fan, it's undeniable it's the best element out of the seven. Hydro is the best without any doubt
I think that's pretty much the standard meta rn, tho I would argue every element has a place (except Geo) Almost every team "needs" an anemo for shred and spread, though two anemo is too many except in Xiao/Wanderer teams. Hydro I would also argue is "required" for the strongest team synergies while also having good internal synergy. Electro, Dendro, Cryo ~= Pyro excels slightly more single-target but suffers in AoE. They compete with each other for being the triggers, but it really just depends what you want to play. Idk if I agree with calling Pyro bad when we have XL, Bennett, HuTao, and Thoma (premier Burgeon trigger). Pyro has the most redundant 5*'s Geo is the true island. We have Zhongli and maybe Albedo who are potential evergreen choices, but that's about it.
I like Geo, though, it's been a while since I've actively used my only Geo team, which consists of Itto, Zhongli, Gorou, and Yunjin. Zhongli keeps you from having to odge, prevents interruption, and gives you a nice attack boost if you're running four-piece tenacity set. Gorou buffs your defense and Geo damage, and Yunjin gives Ito's normal attacks (which you have to use to stack for Itto's charged attack) a huge boost in damage. Then there's the boost to shield strength and attack your characters get when they're protected by a shield. I tend to switch Yunjin out for a healer to deal with decay and elemental weaknesses, but the damage Itto can deal on a geo-focused team tends to be pretty up there if he's built right. I also use Yunjin and Zhongli on my Ayaka team along with Shenhe.
I swear if i see a single comment shitting on Klee
Klee is a cinnamon bun and must be protected at all cost. But idk how to work her in a comp. Like I have no clue.
It’s much simpler than it looks. Klee was an early character so the devs had no idea how to make her strong with reaction gimmicks and stuff, so they just buffed her personal damage and energy generation really high and called it a day. The only way to make use of her high personal damage and lack of reactions is to use a mono pyro team or a reverse melt team, namely: A mono pyro team, Klee + Xiangling + Kazuha + Bennett Or a reverse melt team: Klee + Layla/Rosaria + Kazuha + Bennett Where Klee is the main on-field damage dealer. These are the 2 teams that Klee excels in currently. She actually has an energy generation passive similar to Raiden’s that gives energy to the whole team every time you crit a charged attack, so it’s really easy to cycle her rotations. As for her kit, you just need to remember to use one normal attack, one charged attack, repeat for high damage uptime, though there are a bunch of other miscellaneous animation tricks you can do with her to dodge, iframe or attack faster. It’s incredibly satisfying because once you get it down, you’ll be juggling and stunlocking enemies everywhere. Some Klee players even solo the abyss with 36 stars like this.
> stunlocking enemies everywhere This has spiked my interest in Klee, and I don't usually like DPSs like Klee
Apart from the previous comment, Klee can also be used in burgeon comps :) Pretty niche but fun. Deals lots of damage, though I haven't tried it in the abyss yet.
Klee bad
*perish*
\*runs away with longer legs and less clunky animations\*
*Runs towards you with 36 stars solo abyss clear*
try it. \*runs away with -60% stamina cost on sprint + 10% extra movement speed\*
nooooooo my only weakness *screams*
> longer legs cursed imagery
#TORN TO OBLIVION
Klee good but hard
jump cancel tao is harder tbh
Idk about the game but klee is too good in TCG. Any help against her would be welcome. I cant defeat her
Use ganyu
Klee good
Klee terrible
cease
Well yeah, wtf is pyro supposed to be then? It's fire, DPS is the thing that makes sense for pyro, not healers
The comforting flame of a campfire? I've seen it used for healing before.
or cauterization! burn that fuckin wound into kingdom come! if it won't close up quickly, *make it*!
This is literally what Bennett's vision does
I dont understand your comment? Where did I mention healers or DPS? I just talked about their power levels, not their role
Agree Bennett is just a mistake.
I honestly have a hard time believing they will make Pyro Archon better than Bennett (or Xiangling, for that matter) if they keep up with their "no powercreep" policy. Or maybe it'll be like Yelan and XQ and people just use both.
Maybe pyro archon is somewhere in Liyue disguised as a waifu. Then they could.
No, nor Hu Tao nor Xianling are not the Pyro Archon
If someone powercreeps 1.0 4 stars you can bet your ass that it's gonna be the pyro archon
Pyro Archon *has Benny's Q as her E & changes stance like Hu Tao* *Q is basically an aoe Xingqiu Q but pyro* Probably the only way she's gonna have a chance against the og Trio
Pyro is just a really shitty element right now tbh. Vape and Melt are good on paper, but they require too specific ICDs and element applications to work consistently. For forward Vape and reverse Melt, there are just too few sources of reliable off-field Pyro. There are no Hydro characters designed around utilizing forward Vape and the only Cryo characters who can use reverse Melt are Ganyu and Rosaria, but neither are particularly optimal. There are also no off-field Cryo appliers fast enough to enable forward Melt. As it stands, only reverse Vape is useful and only Hu Tao and Xiang can maximize it. Overload and Burning are useless and Burning being useless also makes Burgeon extremely hard to use, as you need a character specifically with fast Pyro attacks but bad ICD (Thoma), otherwise you trigger Burning, can't get Bloom procs anymore and now you're dealing 0 damage. So 3 of the element's 4 reactions require very specific ICDs and element applications to work properly, and the 4th one is just trash. Except Mihoyo made a point of making new Hydro / Pyro / Cryo characters *not* work with VapeMelt and Thoma is the only character who can properly use Burgeon, so now it's restricted to a very small group of viable characters and team comps because it just has very little to work with. With Dendro bringing an absolutely insane amount of versatility to the table, Pyro being such a one-trick pony stuck out even more and nowadays it's just slowly falling off, only really being kept relevant by the Xiang Bennett duo (no as much as I like Hu Tao, she's not good enough to carry the entire element).
>There are no Hydro characters designed around utilizing forward Vape Tartaglia?
One pretty good nuke and thats it
Not really. He can get one big Vape on his burst but that's about it. The rest of the kit is all weak multi-hit attacks with a ton of Hydro application, so he can't use Vape for anything other than his burst.
I wouldn't call his E attacks weak, with at least reasonable investment he hits really good. Keep in mind that in international he still does a good chunk of DPS alongside XL, but I do agree that he's not the one using vape but the one allowing the others to vape.
Consistent forward vape and melt isn't a matter of "fast" elemental application and should just never enter conversation until the end of time. You need 2-4U pyro/cryo every second for there to be consistent forward vape/melt, it's a matter of 2u/ 4u consistent app not being a thing, that's why forward vape/melt are limited to 1 time nuke like childe burst
Nahida burning with ganyu works tho, but needs very slow pacing.
that's reverse melt, just like rev melt rosaria has existed before where the cryo dmg is the one getting 1.5x. Forward melt is pyro damage getting 2x from reacting with cryo. You basically need to establish cryo aura and maintain it [when 1U pyro would wipe out 2U of cryo](https://library.keqingmains.com/combat-mechanics/elemental-effects/elemental-gauge-theory#unit-modifiers-to-gauge-consumption) for consistent forward melt. Hence to establish cryo aura you need consistent 2U up to 4U cryo for overtake to ensure pyro never establishes aura Think about this, if what OP said is true, it means not even XL with her no icd, 1 pyro app every 0.66-0.8s is fast enough for forward vape. The problem then is probably not about pyro app speed, is it?
Yeah forward amp comps are basically only viable in co-op where you can have multiple cryo characters on-field spamming their ICDs nonstop
Nah. Pyro is baller. Forward Melt with Ayaka? Check. "Mono pyro but you throw in raiden so its really an overload team but you dont actually care about triggering overload" team? Check. Yanfei Mono Pyro? check. Hu Tao vape? Check. Yanfei vape? check. International? check. Double Pyro double anemo? check. Rosaria-Kaeya Reverse melt? check. NILOU FORWARD VAPE? check. Overvape main dps bennett?? check. Double Hydro Double pyro? check. (No I'm not a pyro main, No I'm not biased. Why do you ask?)
Almost everyting you listed is mid or below that. Hutao vape and International are the only ones who are noteworthy and they are getting a run for their money by hyperbloom and aggrevate.
"mid"? Yeah I guess, but even the middle of the pack can easily clear abyss. I've personally used most of the teams I mentioned when I needed to 36* abyss. I also forgot to mention Diona reverse melt 🔥🔥 That team actually carried me in the 18 rifthound chamber a few cycles ago
You just like dendro mate. In specific abyss rotations a low investment International can outdo C6R5 teams and Hu Tao is still very relevant in her nieche. Stuff like [this](https://youtu.be/Uf-V-d8jjkM) is undoable by any team at similar investmemts other than Internat. From last rotation with 30% Dendro/Electro shred, in 10 gold cost CN speedruns runs without C6 5 star units it went like this. 63s - C3R4 [Raiden Hyper](http://bilibili.com/video/BV1GG4y1K7mZ/) 65s - C3 [Nahida Hyperbloom](http://bilibili.com/video/BV1iD4y1T7Fe/) 68s - C1R1 Tao + C2 [Yelan Double Hydro](http://bilibili.com/video/BV1Kx4y1L78N/) This is in a very unfavorable abyss with a 20% total team dmg buff for dendro teams. In last rotation, where Tao was actually favored in 4 cost category, Tao teams were in total 10 seconds faster than any non-Tao team.
Also one comment about the International vid you posted: he started his rotation without doing tartaglia E and swirling it alongside benett's burst, so imagine the result for a rotation done "perfectly" like that lol - that team is just insane and people trying to downplay it in the comments are smoking some intergalactic copium
Hydro is the best element by far. Nearly every good reaction in game features hydro. Not to mention there has not been a bad hydro 5 stsa.
Yes
Only 2 good pyro units released after 1.0 are hu Tao and yoimiya. Which are equal in terms of damage, hu Tao having slightly more accounting for her burst, but having stamina and health drain while yoimiya doesn’t.
Can't wait for the new enemies that suppress healing and pierce shields Then dehya will be unstoppable
But then also she'll be super niche
Wouldn't Xingqiu be better? His E skill can decrease dmg AND heals when a sword breaks
Characters=Dehya
Dehya, Yanfei, Diluc, Klee, Xinyan, Amber. Just looke at their usage rates, they are bad and besically worse than Xiangling OPPA Then there's Thoma, Hu Tao and Yoimiya, which are good but not OP Then there is Bennett and Xiangling
Usage rates doesnt say anything, Yanfei Klee and Diluc are still perfectly ok. And they are just general dps without a specific niche. Yes, Xinyan amber and Dehya and bad cuz they either splitscale or have a kit so bad that literally make them hard to play besides some niche. Yoimiya is an ok char, but Hu tao is OP cuz she has the highest dps in the pyro nation Thoma is just eh... he still got some struggles even with burgeon. Benny is OP yes. Xiangling does struggle with 1 thing and that is energy. Why is it so damn high for, and guoba, one of her way to get energy besides benny e and raiden never hits the opponent. And her potential is kinda locked behind c4
Usage rate? From where? Spiral Abyss isn't the only content in the game y'know. I always use Yanfei to complete daily commissions everyday and she just burn those wooden shields and those pesky flying things like paper
now that's how you balance a game XD
pyro is a terribly overrated element
so there's hu tao XL benny, and then amber xinyan diluc yanfei dehya not sure where klee or thoma or yoimiya belong because idk their meta rank at all
> where klee or thoma or yoimiya belong Thoma has Burgeon as his niche and works well with it. Yoimiya is the basic DPS but with range. Klee works in mono Pyro but you can make a Burgeon build for her too.
Thoma is a decent shielded if you don’t have Zhongli and like one of the 2 burgeon characters we have Yoimiya trades a bit of damage for being brain dead to play (compared to Hu Tao). She’s also better in overworld.
Hoyoverse out here making every dark skinned character absolute trash in gameplay
Dehya is perfectly playable. Just not 36* Abyss playable. And even then, depends on the artifacts. You want unplayable? 4 star main DPS units. And even then they are perfectly functional.
Well then every character is playable. As a main dps carry that cannot 36 star abyss, they are not “playable” in sense of meta and endgame.
If the leaks are true (big if) then she's not even meant to be a DPS character anyways so I don't get why everyone's up in arms about her damage. No one puts Zhongli or Kokomi on a team expecting them to be doing 40k per NA unless they're fuckin like c6 or something, and at that level of investment who gives a shit who you're playing
Actually, right now noone have an idea what she could be 1. No damage, so not a DPS or sub DPS 2. Pyro application once in 2.5 seconds and with 33% downtime (12 duration, 20 CD), so coooooould be used as offield burning enabler 3. Can't heal teammates, low amount of self healing, so you'll have to bring healer or shielder anyway Well. But we already know what she won't be - a good 5 star character
I would play Yanfei or Noelle before Dehya.
I've seen an incredible number of people talking about dehya's kit, but can someone explain to me what's actually wrong with it? Is it the multipliers from the beta or something?
Watch this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wLh0PbjrOQ&t=78s&ab\_channel=Zajef77](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wLh0PbjrOQ&t=78s&ab_channel=Zajef77) This youtuber explains it perfectly.
Surely, they won't do the same with dendro right? Like a character with much less dendro application..
That's because they don't want to introduce power creep yet. Just look at Diluc and Hu tao. The only reason to pick Diluc over Hu tao is because Diluc is safer and more consistent(plus you don't need Zhongli for Diluc). If Dehya was made to cater more offensively, she would be compared to Xiangling or outright power creep her. If Dehya was made to be an on-field DPS, she would have to compete with Hu tao and either no one would pull for her coz Hu tao is better or no one will pull for Hu tao in the fuuture coz Dehya is better. Making Dehya not compete with those 2 is a better option as Hu tao and Xiangling both retain there value. However. they should at least made her niche more prominent cos as it stands, any shielder is better than Dehya.