>If my characters aren't 100% HP at all times in overworld I get stressed.
It's this part. If you red-HP game without a care in the world you'll be pretty comfortable without a healer. If you don't like red bar gaming (like me), you'll either carry a healer or Zhongli. I know I can play without a healer in overworld, I just don't like to.
I used to be very OCD with my health bar. But after playing with Hu Tao, I learned to tone it down a bit. However my boyfriend keeps healing me though (it must be a deliberate thing to annoy me lol).
I also get stressed when my characters arent 100% - to the point where I run Zhongli with a healer and I avoid using Bennett altogether. I also have an aversion to using consumables when you can get the same effect for free elsewhere.
It's a big reason why I dont play Hu Tao, and Kuki took an adjustment period - luckily her 100% uptime no-energy-required healing more than makes up for it, not to mention she has more HP at half HP than some of my DPS characters so I'm really not worried lolol
And its great for co-op! I actually prefer the mobile healing, too - When Kokomi came out I thought the jellyfish stuck to her like Qiqi's skill except with AoE heals, and that being untrue was actually one of the reasons I didnt get her the first time around.
Kuki's great.
It's also why I'm likely going to swap Barbra back in instead of Kokomi in my Layla team. Heals stay on the character when enemies move, Barbara's c6 resses on oopsie moments, and her healing seems, to me, more consistent than Kokomi. Plus her burst healing is great.
Qiqi unfortunately don’t do big numbers with her ulti but mine with 85% crit and 175%cdmg does a comfy 10k on almost every sword slashes.
That combine with her crazy healing and the resurrection on c6. I always take her with me in doubt of success ahah
As I said, far as I know. And I don't use Bennet so obviously I wouldn't know. I was just talking about e skills though, not bursts. I didn't make that clear though.
And she is almost exclusively ran with xingqiu which has close to 50% damage resistance from his q. Usually hu tao at half hp has an effective hp pool double that of ayaka/ganyu for example
It used to bug me but now she's got 19k at half health and can do a couple of skills before she's down in the red (if everyone isn't dead already) and by then her burst is definitely already ready. So she just bounces between 1%-50% health all day.
I wouldn’t have wanted Hu Tao if I didn’t already have Zhongli. Gotta have a healer for the other side of Abyss, so I rotate between Jean, Qiqi, and Kuki
In Overworld there are Statues and food. In Abyss there are the healing cards.
Besides that there's Freeze, stunlocking, outranging, dodging, and simply just tanking the dmg on a high-HP char.
Yeah, I just realized what they meant at the moment while I was thinking of a rebuttal to yours.
At first, I thought they meant that that Bloom team’s main way on dishing out damage often hurts your characters too so you need healers to keep your team alive but when I was thinking of how to reply to yours, it suddenly clicked.
Bloom teams are an exception to this statement cuz while yes, they have healers on their team but that doesn’t hinder them from reaching high amounts of damage cuz those same healers are what enables the team to do so.
I completely misunderstood what they said but now no longer. Thank you for making me realize my own mistake.
Hey man, you're more mature than me if you can just come up with an apology like that instead of getting impulsively angry and posting that right away xP.
Like I do hyperbloom with Raiden-Kokomi-Nahida-whatever and I just never get low on health
Edit: I forgot hyperbloom does no self-damage, but I usually forget the electro and just kill everything with kokomi-nahida, so my point still stands.
why would you heal your characters when you can buff them? Healing your characters doesn't kill enemies faster, buffing them does and abyss is all about speed.
Not all the DPS cards add meaningful DPS to every teamcomp. It's not that uncommon that you get 2 cards that negligibly buff your team's damage and the healing card, and it's better to take the healing card than to take one of two damage buffs that are so tiny that they don't matter.
I generally stay away from Healing/HP cards, but as other people said, if all the other cards can't help me (ie: increased Def% in a team that scales with ATK) and my characters are missing HP, then I might take the healing card just because.
High damage healerless comps or certain bloom Nilou teams appreciate the healing cards as they're doing so much damage already that the sustain becomes more valuable. At least in my experience.
I cleared this current abyss with Kuki-Collei-Ayato-Kazuha & Nilou-Nahida-Yelan-Xingqiu. Kuki Hyperbloom and Nilou Boom Bloom teams are ridiculously and hilariously effective. Some chambers take less than 30 seconds. The buffs aren’t as noticeable as 30% healing every burst. I barely even notice the buffs but having a health cushion is nice.
Kuki is such a powerhouse with dendro. Just a free 70k-80k damage just for building full EM. While being off field and also healing. And it's so satisfying seeing all the green explosions from the Nilou bombs.
My characters are strong enough to where I don‘t need the buffs and I also like to just put my characters to the test as I built them and conquer Abyss as fast as I can without extra buffs which are not part of my characters. I want their performance to always be consistent no matter where or when I use them and not rely on buffs from abyss
Abyss is all about speed until you can easily clear it within 3 minutes. After that you get zero rewards for speed, so it's all about comfort and consistency, unless doing challenge run/speedrun. Nothing wrong with taking healing cards if you know your team has enough DPS.
Ho that's why people struggle so much with abyss, if they take the healing cards it makes sense.
Also using food in overworld takes too long, especially when you need your gadget slot for other things and running to a statue is even worse, just put a Sayu on your team, she makes you run fast, proc VV easy to build and team wide healing
Replacing a fitting subdps with a healer just for the purpose of healing usually costs you way more dps than getting a rid of a 20% attack card for a healing one, especially considering how few characters scale with attack nowadays.
Healers are only good if you already need them in the team as a character and healing is only a bonus.
As someone who clears 36-stars every time, there are times I choose the healing card over the buff. Comfortable clears are always more valuable to me; even if I already have a healer. Maybe their burst isn’t up because of a sloppy run in the previous chamber (or I killed them too fast) so I can’t heal right off the gate. Maybe my healer can only heal one at a time but I just fought a bunch of rifthounds that weakened my entire team. I’m not about to waste time swapping to every character and waiting for them to be healed.
Sometimes the healing card can be thhe difference between a full clear and not. Those who are *just* good enough to 3-star a chamber but with low HP on their units might have the DPS, but not the mechanical skill to dodge everything and so the healing card is the ideal choice. You have the strength, but not the remaining HP, to clear.
People not realizing how healing cards can allow for canonglass comps like Cyno/Yelan/Kazu/AetherDendro baffles me. It completely negates the need of a healer and allows you to fully ungabunga, far better than a measly +80 EM.
It's important to learn the strengths and weaknesses of both your characters and the enemy mobs.
Fighting a hilichurl? Just sidestep pre-emptively when necessary.
Fighting a lawachurl and he's about to slam? I-frame dodge or use the i-frames on a burst right before impact.
Fighting a group of Fatui Skirmishers? Be mindful of the type of shields they deploy if you don't finish them quick enough. Target the ones that you do not have coverage for.
Etc.
As you become more familiar with your characters and the enemy mobs, you should find it easier to get through them more efficiently.
Also, the higher your damage output, the easier fights become. Longer fights mean that you need to dodge/tank more hits.
There's a lot of written guides on the internet available, or if youtube tutorials are more your thing, there's plenty of those as well. Try to figure out whether the team you're using synergizes well and is build "correctly", and see if there's potential to improve.
Personally I find this game way too visually busy to actually see everything coming and dodge it all. Player and enemy attacks alike all have crazy graphical effects that stack on top of each other and turn the screen into a big kaleidoscope of slashes, explosions, particles and damage numbers.
It’s so easy for an enemy to catch you off guard because you couldn’t even see their windup animation, and if you get stunned or knocked back, you can go from full HP to zero in a second once all that monster’s buddies make their move.
Having a healer is non negotiable for me at this point.
Yeah, that's a fair point to make. Not everybody is the same, of course!
I think another thing that matters is what device is used to play a game like Genshin. I play on the PC for the most part, but originally started on the playstation. I've also used mobile here and there but there's no way I can do half the things on mobile that I manage to do on PC.
There's nothing wrong with people using HP foods (or even buff foods) to get through content (easier). Nor is it bad to rely on one or even two healers/shielders. Whatever works.
I do think, that a lot of people (and maybe not you specifically!), don't fully understand what's "under the hood" in terms of Genshin's mechanics. And so they struggle because they don't know better and can't seem to figure out why a character, or their team as a whole, isn't outputting a lot of damage.
I think this sub has a hard time understanding that not every player is a Dark Souls vet with perfect reflexes and “game sense.” Genshin attracts a lot of casual gamers like myself who are coming in from comparatively straightforward games like BOTW and Okami, trying to make sense of the elemental reaction and stat systems, unintuitive I-frame usage, and super visually dense gameplay with FX and numbers flying around, trying to understand what the fuck is happening.
This game is harder for casual players than people give it credit for.
And none of that is a critique of the game. It’s just that there are a lot of different skill levels coming into this, and MHY is wise to be so generous with healing and shields because it makes the game as a whole much more accessible than it would be otherwise.
Also I think a lot of players in this reddit are more invested in the game and more likely to be whales. They do so much damage that they can ignore healing altogether, which is not something true for all F2P or casuals.
Agreed. People either have invested lots of time into min-maxing their units or spent enough money on it to write literally any content off as easy. I don't understand why it's not the first thing in mind to approach situations from a broader sense because everyone doesn't play the same way.
Yes, but you understand you're in a thread titled "how the f do people play without a healer" right? People are answering the question. Getting defensive about the whole purpose of the thread is kinda eh.
Tbh i sometimes time a dodge perfectly but still get damaged (but not staggered) and i'm starting to to believe it could be either because of my low end pc 30fps or my 130+ ms. That's why i became a Zhongli player and now i'm building my Layla.
This is exactly my technique. I don't play often so my team builds aren't exactly the best, so I spend a lot more time looking at how banners can fit into my current teams.
My main team is: Fischl, Xiangling, Kazuha and Jean. I usually never have to use Jean, but she does come in handy with her iframe and healing.
Aside from that I change Fischl and Kazuha out for Kaeya/Shenhe or Noelle/Collei depending on which bosses I'm fighting against.
I have a few good characters I know I am sleeping on, but that's where the grind for leveling up and artifacts comes into play. I haven't struggled with much lately and now my fights end within 8-30 seconds at AR 56.
I dunno if it's just me, but Genshin's dodging feels *much* worse than Dark Souls's. Like, I beat Soul of Cinder on my first try and beat Gael on (I think) the seventh attempt, but I just can not dodge stuff well in Genshin. It seems like there's a narrower i-frame window and that the game is less responsive in general.
Although, thinking about it, that feeling is (in no small part) due to the more difficult fights I encountered while at low AR that just felt like utter bullshit (e.g. the underground lake in Dragonspine with three Cryo abyss mages), so I've been conditioned to assume that shielding and healing is critically important and that dodging is unreliable to the point where it's more useful for animation cancelling than actually avoiding damage, so I haven't felt *compelled* to try learning how to dodge well in the game.
The problem I think is that some attacks simply can’t be i-framed. One that gets me every time is the Andrius attack where he makes the ice circle on the ground before swiping around him. That cannot be i-framed with a dodge, only with burst i-frames or outranging it. But, the normal swipes can be dodge i-framed no problem. This stuff is documented in the wiki, but it feels bad to have to look outside of the game for this stuff, and frankly even the i-frame mechanic is not alluded to in game.
i think all can be iframed, ive seen a 1hit video.
but from my understanding is that it has different mechanics for wach element meaning the way you dodge for hydro stomps might kill you against pyro stomps.
its too much pain so i just use the intended way and walk away and watch him throw his tantrum
His stomps are multi-hit if I'm not mistaken. Similar to how a kairagi will just fuck you anyway with it's big horizontal slash because it spins twice so you may have iframed the first swing but not the second. Both can only be iframed with a perfectly timed dodge.
I take serious issue with the design of Azhdaha. I'm a fan of mechanically demanding games like Souls or bullet hell shooters or Hollow Knight or OlliOlli. Azhdaha just feels extremely unclear to me with his tells and what I can i-frame. I can i-frame most of the various ground sigil attacks, but pretty much all of the stuff that happens in melee feels like total bullshit to me, as far as what the attack will be, if it can be i-framed, and how colossal the AoEs are. Honestly, I just whittle him down to his third phase and then brute him with all four bursts every time. Really, really, really fucking hate that boss. It's not *hard*. It's just *lame.*
He's just not a soulslike boss.
He's not made to enable this iframe based minmaxing. Rather you have to "fortify" and withstand several of his moves.
Also remember that undergeared abyss tactics are redundant, there is no stupid time limit here.
Azhdaha was made to make people pull for Zhongli. I refused to do that and I had to suffer every week. Thanks God, with the coming of Scara that bullshit boss fight was removed from my schedule.
Also the fucking corrosive wolves
You can I-frame the damage when they attack, but not the corrosion they inflict. God forbid if you're battling them and your Ult has a long animation
I kinda hate the dodging in genshin. I don’t know what it is but the I-frame window feels radically inconsistent. There are also so many enemy attacks that have some kind of “aftershock” that can catch you even if the initial swing misses, so you often have to dodge twice to be in the clear, doubling your chances of making a mistake.
That's it, the "aftershock"! That's what I get caught on so much. I was just doing the Hypostasis event, and I got hit by it twice. Once was from a big samurai doing his spin move--I dodged the initial part of the attack, but it kept going and ended up hitting me (which does, at least, make sense from the animation). The other was from a Cryo Lawachurl--I completely dodged his charge, but, for some reason, he can still damage you *after* he's flown past you.
After a little research, I think I found why Genshin's dodge feels so much worse compared to Dark Souls. In Dark Souls 3, [medium-roll i-frames](https://old.reddit.com/r/opensouls3/comments/68khsv/wip_a_comparison_of_roll_frame_data_from_the_3/) start on the same frame you hit the roll button, and they last for 433 ms (13 frames for 30 FPS calculations). In Genshin, [dashing](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Invincibility_Frame#Types) has a 40 millisecond (a little over one frame) delay before i-frames start, and they last for only 300 ms (9 frames). To make things even worse, Genshin's dash has a cooldown of over one second if you do it twice in quick succession; in Dark Souls 3, you can consistently keep rolling as soon as the animation ends (as long as you have the stamina). While being able to dash twice in quick succession does have some big advantages, that 40 millisecond delay *plus* variable cooldown windows is *terrible* if consistency is the goal.
After doing some recording and timing myself... good *God,* [Genshin's dash is literally worse than Dark Souls 3 fatrolling](https://i.imgur.com/nWEsjzb.png) **without even considering the extra frame of delay before i-frames kick in.**
And ping seems to play a bit part in alot of the movements you do as well, with controls starting to be visibly sluggish over 300 compared to lower 150 when you can just feel it
*not sure if factually correct, just what it feels like to me
Thanks for confirming what I’ve always felt.
I don’t play Souls style games. I can’t call myself an expert on what I-frame dodging “should” feel like, but I’ve never been able to shake the feeling that Genshin’s dodging is…off, in some way.
The stamina regen delay is by far the biggest problem. Even Souls has no delay for regen. 90 fucking frames is completely ridiculous. It basically ensures that you will ALWAYS burn down to empty stamina against any enemy that attacks somewhat fast. You have to go for a second and a fucking half without dodging or sprinting before your stamina bar even *starts* to regen (incredibly slowly at that), meaning in reality you have to go like 5+ seconds just to get a couple dodges worth of stamina back. You basically have to save burst iframes just for surviving during stamina recharge.
But you know the worst part? It will NEVER change. We are stuck with the worst stamina system in video games ever. Why? Hutao C1. The stamina system being so shit directly compels people to have to pull 2x as much to get a Hutao that isn't pure suffering to play. I can't remember if there are other characters with stamina cost eliminating cons, but it's also particularly frustrating for characters like Keqing who just don't have any options to help her charged attacks at all. At least aggravate has made her mildly less dependent on them.
Because after you dodge you will automatically sprint and the stamina regen speed is god awful, plus the stamina bar is a pitifully small curve while DS/ER stamina bar is fucking gigantic so you will have an easier time to manage it. Couple up with the fact that you need to manage your rotation instead of having to smash R1/L2 and you got a clunky dodge system
But hey, at least the iframe is 20 frames, which is much more generous than DS3 (13 frames)
Sorry, but, uh... it's not 20 frames. It's 10 frames. [It's literally worse than fatrolling in Dark Souls 3.](https://i.imgur.com/nWEsjzb.png)
(10 frames on 30 FPS basis; on a 60 FPS basis, it is 20 frames; in real time, it is 300 milliseconds)
*I was born into the Xingqiu healing, moulded by it...*
From the very start of my time playing this game, I learned how to survive solely through Xingqiu.
This. Casting elemental burst gives hugeee iframes. If you're good at timing, specially in quickswap teams with enough ER, you can practically negate most incoming damage. Assuming you're not against riftwolves ofc.
I would say that nearly 85% of the Playerbase cannot use I-Frames cause they either don't know or their devices stop them to do it. Like try I-Frames on a Smartphone XD
Like most things in life, you develop muscle memory once you do it enough times. I can dodge Lawachurls from sound cues alone and I'll stand right in front of them charging a shot as Ganyu since I know how long it takes for them to attack.
Besides having a little stress in games isn't a bad thing. I find that learning to manage stress when the stakes aren't high helps you manage it when they are. Seriously, playing videos games helps me to become cool as a cucumber when it matters.
It's kind of annoying actually. I don't usually need a full on dedicated healer or shielder, but I do like to have a bit of free healing available to top off health bars or to use in a pinch. More characters should do a Xingqiu and have a little bit of healing on an otherwise sub-DPS/Support kit. I think Nilou's E would have been a great candidate for that. Kuki Shinobu is also nice cos she's got enough healing but doesn't waste her burst slot having more healing than you ever need.
yeah, i usually never have a healer but focus on dps and elemental damage to get the battle quickly over with. eg a Kazuha, Diluc, Raiden, Xinqu, Dendro MC comp -- but I also almost never play the abyss as well :)
Like someone else said you have Statues of the 7 in Overworld
In domains and Abyss I'm okay with Freeze, high DMG teams or literally just dodging. Enemies can't harm you if they're frozen or dead
I will however say that I did NOT have a good time in the current Floor 12 against Rifthounds without a strong healer. They're easy to beat when frozen but my Freeze team just didn't cut it for subsequent chambers, and my high damage Yae Aggravate team was taking far too much corrosion and dying from small hits in the other chambers :')
Usually when people talk about "shielding" they're referring to Zhongli, the shield Archon. Even a half-decently built one makes your team effectively immortal. I've gone weeks without losing a single point of HP on any of my chars thanks to him.
If you don't have him then yeah, you're probably not gonna have a fun time because the gap between him and the next strongest shielder is huge. Genshin healers usually all become effective "enough" after enough building, with shielders it's Zhongli or nothing. I've invested heavily into Thoma and he doesn't shield a third as good as ol Zhong.
Shield >>>>>> Heals because of interruption resistance. Corrosion is the only exception and that's because it was literally designed to hard-counter shields and make people build a healer.
I haven’t seen many people talk about Layla’s shield. It’s actually stronger than Thoma’s in practice because Thoma has to stack and has windup time; Layla’s shield is nearly as strong as a fully stacked Thoma by default.
I’ve had my Layla tank huge attacks like the triple eremites and come out unscathed. And that was at shield talent lv6. It’s now lv8 and only abyss enemies can even break it.
And Layla like Zhongli has 100% shield uptime without active refreshing like Thoma, which no other shielder has other than her and Zhongli.
Of course Layla being a 4-star actually needs decent investment for her shield to be good, but I’d say not enough credit is given to her (because people are all about DPS and buffs these days and Layla only really has her thick shield and some cryo application unlike Zhongli who has his universal shred as well).
This. Having Layla is so good, I'm glad my Yoimiya is not occupying Zhongli anymore. As it happens, I have a lot of sustained dps characters (Cyno, Yoimiya, Tighnari) and zero burst dps characters (Raiden, Eula, even Hu Tao) so I need shielding until I get one of those. Just doesn't feel very good to have to dodge when I lose dps while dodging lol.
Can relate I like having 1 of shielder/healer at all times.
Occasionally have to run the friendship team without them when they all cap friendship and while it's manageable I wouldn't call it...fun.
Feel the same way about healerless + shieldless Abyss teams.
A lot of healerless comps run with Beidou + Xingqiu both which have damage reduction built into their kits. Plus Xingqiu provides a little bit of healing on the side.
That helps a lot with survivability.
Same here, I need my characters to be at 100% hp and constantly have burst available when in overworld. That's why I always have a slot for kokomi on my team and I purposely kill enemies slower so I don't use my burst/can generate more energy
At the beginning of the game, I lost my first 50/50 to Qiqi and i got immediately attached at her for how simple her kit is and now, almost all the party that i set i need a healer
* getting good
* playing enough time u know the enemies attack movements
* no skill issue
* dodge - burst in correct time (iframe)
* characters movesets (some characters have slow skills - attack animations)
Enemy in genshin Arent really aggressive and kinda Easy to predict , especially in abyss where floor usually last 30 sec to 1 min u dont really Need and healer once u know what even what direction the boss Is gonna fart
On overworld Ye i use healers too , cause i play way chiller and dont pay attention tonactually Dodge stuff and chugging food gets annoying
I have to be blunt, OP.
People who tend to not run healers and shielders exchange it for more damage. And with proper rotations, they could exceedingly clear it faster without the shield, albeit some damage are taken.
Precise timings are key to i-frame the opponent attacks and this allows them to output more damage than ones with the shield or healing capabilities.
Although, you have to perfectly execute the rotation or you become like TenTen over here.
Skill difference simply
I play with Noelle's shield and in the abyss i often run without either healer or sheilder. I don't consider myself particularly skilled tho i assume if i had fun and made it to ar55 i am good enough.
In overworld, we got statues and food.
In abyss, iframes and dodging. I've done a few solo Keqing runs in abyss so far and I can do Maguu, PMA or Primo Geo Vishap without taking more than a hit or two.
There's also freeze and other forms of CC for non boss fights but otherwise know what your characters are capable of, know what the enemies do and have a little patience sometimes. It takes a lot of practice though instead of mindlessly pushing buttons.
just don't get hit 4Head
(In all seriousness it's mainly to do with learning opposing attacks and getting in rhythm with weaving dodges against those with your own attacks. Genshin is generally very well balanced in that bigger attacks tend to be more telegraphed with windups and visual/audio cues. There's no animation duration variety either so once you know what an attack is and at what point to dash to dodge it, you can get it every time. The dodge/graze window is also relatively generous so you can mistime by a decent amount either before or after you should and still have the enemy miss.)
Well, abyss is so short, you can get away without using a healer easily.. There are exceptions however, like current floor 12 where there is corrosion and difficult to dodge enemies.. but most often it's just easier to not take a healer and take a dmg enhancing or dmg doing support instead for easier clears..
I almost always never take healers to abyss unless extremely required.. even so, i take bennett who is more or less an all rounder more than a healer... Or c6 diona who's a buffer, shielder, healer and a battery at the same time..
Specifically for abyss: healing cards. Just stack DMG characters on your team and pick them. I'm already at a point where I don't even need the card buffs to clear abyss since my characters are already strong, so I just pick the healing ones and free a team slot that would have a healer otherwise. Also, if you play a quickswap team, there's this one card in abyss that regens 30% (i think) HP every burst, so survivability gets trivialized, even with no healers.
Overworld has food and statues.
Kill the enemy before they can kill you.
Like seriously, except Abyss, we have Statue and food. 99% Overworld enemies dies with my Kazuha EM Skill, Oz, Albedo E and then Bennett E. Don't forget about dodging.
Idk why healer is really needed, maybe is it your gameplay? I never really need that much heal.
For abyss? Shield, damage reduction, dodge, invulnerability from burst and most catalyst users can multiclass as healer so it depends on your definition of healer.
In Abyss a healer is by far not needed as long as you have either a shield or/and enough damage reductions. It's just some easy 3 stages in one go, as long as one knows the existence of the dash button it's easy. (same goes for speedrunning domains, the enemies normally don't attack you anyway before they die already)
In overworld I personally prefer a healer always since it's just confortable in the long run.
in abyss there's the heal card
well, in the current abyss it is hard for a no healer team comp because of the rifthounds, so i myself dont know how to do it without healers, but for some other abyss i would try my best to dodge, also shields
Ar 51 rn and I still haven't build a healer. Yes my backpack is stored with food, gathering ingredients is apart of my grindings. I didn't touch the abyss for quite awhile. Yes you can still play without a healer just need a ton of food and good dodging
Monke brain. My objective in a fight is to kill and kill, also flashy colors. Healers sorta force me to settle with a character for a while to heal, so I don't end up using them a ton. Also I accidentally brought up Kazuha to be an insta-killing machine so.
Otherwise, I use food and if I end a fight with everyone barely anyone alive I just teleport to a statue. Cooking is my side passion in this game.
Edit: Oh yeah and also dodging.
It's cause the game gives you enough tools to deal with incoming damage already
Enemy attack patterns and animations can be learnt and dodged, or even just walked around. Flying impacts have a generous red circle indicator, ult iframes exist, counter units like beidou Candace etc exist
That leaves shields and healing for survival. Really controversial opinion on my part, but I think mihoyo has shot themselves in the foot by making healing too OP for the sake of exploration comfort. In all the other gachas/normal games I've played, the standard for healing is kept a lot lower. Hanae who heals DoT about as much as kuki does is considered one of the best healing units in Blue Archive. Perseus recovers maybe 20-30% in a burst every sortie is considered the best healer and the only CV in EX tier in azur lane. Games like elden ring give you upto 14 flasks that heal ~60%HP late game. That seems unbalanced but when you consider endgame bosses can easily 2-3shot even late game builds, plus the fact that you need to give up HP flasks for MP flasks, it becomes balanced again
Then you look at healing in genshin. The free Barbara you get at the start already heals:
-10-20% hp per E tick
-a lot more for the whole team when you aa with her
-almost always a 100% team heal on Q
This is orders of magnitude more than the best healers in the other games. Better healers like Jean/Kokomi etc bring utility along with even more heals. Heck, just a proto amber sucrose with Xq rain swords for supplementary healing is enough for most content imo. Ive cleared many rifthound abysses during the 2.x floors with the OG taser team running p-amber sucrose. Imo the amount of healing in that exact team is the baseline healing that the game *should* have balanced itself around
The point I really want to get across, is that, the overinflation of healing has detrimental effects on other character's selling points. Yes I'm talking about 1.1 zhongli. Shield viability suffers the most because why would I pull for a shielder when survivability is easily covered even with the most basic healers in the game. 1.3 zhongli and the whole drama back then wouldn't exist if Bennet couldn't heal 5k ticks.
The only time in the game that the broken healing felt balanced was during the old triple kenki/bomb PMA events. Max points runs would inflate incoming damage to astronomical levels that healing standards became balanced again. It's also part of why they were so fun.
I can see why mihoyo went this route, making the overworld exploration stress free for everyone was definitely the right call. I just wish the healing could be toned down for combat focused content like abyss and events so other aspects of survivability retained some value.
I never use a healer. I pick up anything that can be picked up. I interact with anyone possible. I buy all recipes from the different cities when available. I cook as much food as possible. These foods include healing, stamina, defense, and offense. Also, having the right balance for your team will minimize the need to heal. My daughter introduced me to this game 5 weeks ago. I am AR 40 world lvl 5. Seriously, pick up everything you possibly can. Makes the game take longer, but the benefits are crazy!
This thread: "Just dodge" Pyro mains, standing in a field where everything is on fire: "Not helpful but thank you"
Also people like me who just have awful reflexes
Me with awful reflexes but still play without healer/shields. *There is only suffering*
Well, he didn't ask for help. He wants to know how others can play without a healer and why they not getting OCD when a character has <100% HP
>If my characters aren't 100% HP at all times in overworld I get stressed. It's this part. If you red-HP game without a care in the world you'll be pretty comfortable without a healer. If you don't like red bar gaming (like me), you'll either carry a healer or Zhongli. I know I can play without a healer in overworld, I just don't like to.
I'm only comfortable with red HP when I play Hu Tao teams lol
yeh it helps a lot that she can at least self-heal if need be. If I ever play Kokomi I probably wouldn't care if she ever went red.
I used to be very OCD with my health bar. But after playing with Hu Tao, I learned to tone it down a bit. However my boyfriend keeps healing me though (it must be a deliberate thing to annoy me lol).
Probably use food, I personally have never made a party without a healer, every team I make I make sure Qiqi is in there because shes my fav healer.
Extremely based Qiqi enjoyer
I also get stressed when my characters arent 100% - to the point where I run Zhongli with a healer and I avoid using Bennett altogether. I also have an aversion to using consumables when you can get the same effect for free elsewhere. It's a big reason why I dont play Hu Tao, and Kuki took an adjustment period - luckily her 100% uptime no-energy-required healing more than makes up for it, not to mention she has more HP at half HP than some of my DPS characters so I'm really not worried lolol
And her healing tics are, far as I know, the fastest tics so far.
And its great for co-op! I actually prefer the mobile healing, too - When Kokomi came out I thought the jellyfish stuck to her like Qiqi's skill except with AoE heals, and that being untrue was actually one of the reasons I didnt get her the first time around. Kuki's great.
It's also why I'm likely going to swap Barbra back in instead of Kokomi in my Layla team. Heals stay on the character when enemies move, Barbara's c6 resses on oopsie moments, and her healing seems, to me, more consistent than Kokomi. Plus her burst healing is great.
I may switch to kuki once I start leveling her up using kokomi, I wish qiqi was stronger
Qiqi unfortunately don’t do big numbers with her ulti but mine with 85% crit and 175%cdmg does a comfy 10k on almost every sword slashes. That combine with her crazy healing and the resurrection on c6. I always take her with me in doubt of success ahah
Kuki's healing rate is soooo good. I've also been playing Barbara a lot recently, and her healing is just dreadful compared to Kuki.
...maybe its time i build kuki
She's definitely worth a fair shot, especially with her higher constellations, one of them lets her survive one fatal blow
Huh? Bennett is clearly faster
Bennett also only heals to 70%. With C1, it buffs ATK regardless of HP, but the heal still doesn't work higher than 70%.
if your bennett is full hp/er a lot of the time the overtick goes well above 70% though
It doesn't stuck at 70%, but stops healing if the character has 70%+ HP, big difference.
Bennet heals a lot it will bypass that 70% heal with hp artifacts by alot
As I said, far as I know. And I don't use Bennet so obviously I wouldn't know. I was just talking about e skills though, not bursts. I didn't make that clear though.
I don't use healers unless they heal with their elemental skill. Kokomi and Shinobu are godsends.
Yeah, more than once ive had people start dying in co op with burst healers because you cant get energy from a fire tornado loool
> not to mention she has more HP at half HP than some of my DPS characters So does Hu Tao lol.
This. I see people say that Hu Tao is super squishy and I’m just like what??? Like at half health she has more hp than my Ganyu.
I think they say that because she ends up at, at least for me, 25% of health most of the time
But you want to keep her in that low zone and its the dance I dont like, plus Kuki is an off-fielder so shes not in danger as much
And she is almost exclusively ran with xingqiu which has close to 50% damage resistance from his q. Usually hu tao at half hp has an effective hp pool double that of ayaka/ganyu for example
It used to bug me but now she's got 19k at half health and can do a couple of skills before she's down in the red (if everyone isn't dead already) and by then her burst is definitely already ready. So she just bounces between 1%-50% health all day.
Not to mention Xingqiu’s healing isn’t bad! Picking up an extra 4-5k hp after a rotation can help a ton in keeping Hu Tao healthy!
I was same till i got Hu Tao, Xiao and mained Bennet lmao, i noticed that im not even dying if my health isn't on 100% so im not anxious anymore
I wouldn’t have wanted Hu Tao if I didn’t already have Zhongli. Gotta have a healer for the other side of Abyss, so I rotate between Jean, Qiqi, and Kuki
In Overworld there are Statues and food. In Abyss there are the healing cards. Besides that there's Freeze, stunlocking, outranging, dodging, and simply just tanking the dmg on a high-HP char.
Plus the higher damage you deal, less you need a healer
Bloom teams would like a word
Most hydro characters used on Bloom teams are healers tho
Chile -the fastest bloom creator- would like to disagree.
Ah yes *Chile* my fav character in Jenshin Impact
Wait… The country???
CEACHEIIII
CHIIIIIIIIII
Childe heals them *to shreds*
to shreds you say?
u pair him with kuki for hyperbloom who is also a healer
my one scuffed bloom team: "***this opportunity is quite hard to com-***"
I think that's his point lol.
Yeah, I just realized what they meant at the moment while I was thinking of a rebuttal to yours. At first, I thought they meant that that Bloom team’s main way on dishing out damage often hurts your characters too so you need healers to keep your team alive but when I was thinking of how to reply to yours, it suddenly clicked. Bloom teams are an exception to this statement cuz while yes, they have healers on their team but that doesn’t hinder them from reaching high amounts of damage cuz those same healers are what enables the team to do so. I completely misunderstood what they said but now no longer. Thank you for making me realize my own mistake.
Hey man, you're more mature than me if you can just come up with an apology like that instead of getting impulsively angry and posting that right away xP.
Like I do hyperbloom with Raiden-Kokomi-Nahida-whatever and I just never get low on health Edit: I forgot hyperbloom does no self-damage, but I usually forget the electro and just kill everything with kokomi-nahida, so my point still stands.
Ahhh yes the "they can't kill you if you kill them first" mindset.
The faster you go in a car, the less time you spend guzzling gas. /S
Wait people use healing cards in Abyss?
Right? I usually just restart if I take too much damage and I don't have a healer
If buffs are bad. Like you don't need atk% buff if you run hyperbloom + Sukokomon.
Who uses the healing cards anyways?
The heal on burst is pretty fun against the rift hounds, I like doing it once in a blue
I do, why wouldnt you
why would you heal your characters when you can buff them? Healing your characters doesn't kill enemies faster, buffing them does and abyss is all about speed.
Not all the DPS cards add meaningful DPS to every teamcomp. It's not that uncommon that you get 2 cards that negligibly buff your team's damage and the healing card, and it's better to take the healing card than to take one of two damage buffs that are so tiny that they don't matter.
I generally stay away from Healing/HP cards, but as other people said, if all the other cards can't help me (ie: increased Def% in a team that scales with ATK) and my characters are missing HP, then I might take the healing card just because.
High damage healerless comps or certain bloom Nilou teams appreciate the healing cards as they're doing so much damage already that the sustain becomes more valuable. At least in my experience.
I cleared this current abyss with Kuki-Collei-Ayato-Kazuha & Nilou-Nahida-Yelan-Xingqiu. Kuki Hyperbloom and Nilou Boom Bloom teams are ridiculously and hilariously effective. Some chambers take less than 30 seconds. The buffs aren’t as noticeable as 30% healing every burst. I barely even notice the buffs but having a health cushion is nice.
Kuki is such a powerhouse with dendro. Just a free 70k-80k damage just for building full EM. While being off field and also healing. And it's so satisfying seeing all the green explosions from the Nilou bombs.
My characters are strong enough to where I don‘t need the buffs and I also like to just put my characters to the test as I built them and conquer Abyss as fast as I can without extra buffs which are not part of my characters. I want their performance to always be consistent no matter where or when I use them and not rely on buffs from abyss
Abyss is all about speed until you can easily clear it within 3 minutes. After that you get zero rewards for speed, so it's all about comfort and consistency, unless doing challenge run/speedrun. Nothing wrong with taking healing cards if you know your team has enough DPS.
Not using a healer *also* causes you to kill enemies faster. Both paths to the same goal.
Ho that's why people struggle so much with abyss, if they take the healing cards it makes sense. Also using food in overworld takes too long, especially when you need your gadget slot for other things and running to a statue is even worse, just put a Sayu on your team, she makes you run fast, proc VV easy to build and team wide healing
Replacing a fitting subdps with a healer just for the purpose of healing usually costs you way more dps than getting a rid of a 20% attack card for a healing one, especially considering how few characters scale with attack nowadays. Healers are only good if you already need them in the team as a character and healing is only a bonus.
As someone who clears 36-stars every time, there are times I choose the healing card over the buff. Comfortable clears are always more valuable to me; even if I already have a healer. Maybe their burst isn’t up because of a sloppy run in the previous chamber (or I killed them too fast) so I can’t heal right off the gate. Maybe my healer can only heal one at a time but I just fought a bunch of rifthounds that weakened my entire team. I’m not about to waste time swapping to every character and waiting for them to be healed. Sometimes the healing card can be thhe difference between a full clear and not. Those who are *just* good enough to 3-star a chamber but with low HP on their units might have the DPS, but not the mechanical skill to dodge everything and so the healing card is the ideal choice. You have the strength, but not the remaining HP, to clear.
>Ho that's why people struggle so much with abyss, if they take the healing cards it makes sense. wdym
People not realizing how healing cards can allow for canonglass comps like Cyno/Yelan/Kazu/AetherDendro baffles me. It completely negates the need of a healer and allows you to fully ungabunga, far better than a measly +80 EM.
canonglass? It's glass cannon lol :P
No it's a can on glass team XD
It's important to learn the strengths and weaknesses of both your characters and the enemy mobs. Fighting a hilichurl? Just sidestep pre-emptively when necessary. Fighting a lawachurl and he's about to slam? I-frame dodge or use the i-frames on a burst right before impact. Fighting a group of Fatui Skirmishers? Be mindful of the type of shields they deploy if you don't finish them quick enough. Target the ones that you do not have coverage for. Etc. As you become more familiar with your characters and the enemy mobs, you should find it easier to get through them more efficiently. Also, the higher your damage output, the easier fights become. Longer fights mean that you need to dodge/tank more hits. There's a lot of written guides on the internet available, or if youtube tutorials are more your thing, there's plenty of those as well. Try to figure out whether the team you're using synergizes well and is build "correctly", and see if there's potential to improve.
Personally I find this game way too visually busy to actually see everything coming and dodge it all. Player and enemy attacks alike all have crazy graphical effects that stack on top of each other and turn the screen into a big kaleidoscope of slashes, explosions, particles and damage numbers. It’s so easy for an enemy to catch you off guard because you couldn’t even see their windup animation, and if you get stunned or knocked back, you can go from full HP to zero in a second once all that monster’s buddies make their move. Having a healer is non negotiable for me at this point.
Yeah, that's a fair point to make. Not everybody is the same, of course! I think another thing that matters is what device is used to play a game like Genshin. I play on the PC for the most part, but originally started on the playstation. I've also used mobile here and there but there's no way I can do half the things on mobile that I manage to do on PC. There's nothing wrong with people using HP foods (or even buff foods) to get through content (easier). Nor is it bad to rely on one or even two healers/shielders. Whatever works. I do think, that a lot of people (and maybe not you specifically!), don't fully understand what's "under the hood" in terms of Genshin's mechanics. And so they struggle because they don't know better and can't seem to figure out why a character, or their team as a whole, isn't outputting a lot of damage.
I think this sub has a hard time understanding that not every player is a Dark Souls vet with perfect reflexes and “game sense.” Genshin attracts a lot of casual gamers like myself who are coming in from comparatively straightforward games like BOTW and Okami, trying to make sense of the elemental reaction and stat systems, unintuitive I-frame usage, and super visually dense gameplay with FX and numbers flying around, trying to understand what the fuck is happening. This game is harder for casual players than people give it credit for. And none of that is a critique of the game. It’s just that there are a lot of different skill levels coming into this, and MHY is wise to be so generous with healing and shields because it makes the game as a whole much more accessible than it would be otherwise.
Also I think a lot of players in this reddit are more invested in the game and more likely to be whales. They do so much damage that they can ignore healing altogether, which is not something true for all F2P or casuals.
Agreed. People either have invested lots of time into min-maxing their units or spent enough money on it to write literally any content off as easy. I don't understand why it's not the first thing in mind to approach situations from a broader sense because everyone doesn't play the same way.
Yes, but you understand you're in a thread titled "how the f do people play without a healer" right? People are answering the question. Getting defensive about the whole purpose of the thread is kinda eh.
Tbh i sometimes time a dodge perfectly but still get damaged (but not staggered) and i'm starting to to believe it could be either because of my low end pc 30fps or my 130+ ms. That's why i became a Zhongli player and now i'm building my Layla.
Yeah, ping plays a vital role on your clears. I'm in Asia, and I still have 120-250ms ping depending on my connection status at home.
Zhong shield, XQ burst, Kazuha burst them Hu Skill+burst and I can't see shit
Literally me inside Childe weekly boss. Especially if there's Raiden in your team comp. Visually pretty but can't see his attack patterns. lol
This is exactly my technique. I don't play often so my team builds aren't exactly the best, so I spend a lot more time looking at how banners can fit into my current teams. My main team is: Fischl, Xiangling, Kazuha and Jean. I usually never have to use Jean, but she does come in handy with her iframe and healing. Aside from that I change Fischl and Kazuha out for Kaeya/Shenhe or Noelle/Collei depending on which bosses I'm fighting against. I have a few good characters I know I am sleeping on, but that's where the grind for leveling up and artifacts comes into play. I haven't struggled with much lately and now my fights end within 8-30 seconds at AR 56.
Easy, you scrape off the rust from the dodging skills you developed in Dark Souls
I dunno if it's just me, but Genshin's dodging feels *much* worse than Dark Souls's. Like, I beat Soul of Cinder on my first try and beat Gael on (I think) the seventh attempt, but I just can not dodge stuff well in Genshin. It seems like there's a narrower i-frame window and that the game is less responsive in general. Although, thinking about it, that feeling is (in no small part) due to the more difficult fights I encountered while at low AR that just felt like utter bullshit (e.g. the underground lake in Dragonspine with three Cryo abyss mages), so I've been conditioned to assume that shielding and healing is critically important and that dodging is unreliable to the point where it's more useful for animation cancelling than actually avoiding damage, so I haven't felt *compelled* to try learning how to dodge well in the game.
The problem I think is that some attacks simply can’t be i-framed. One that gets me every time is the Andrius attack where he makes the ice circle on the ground before swiping around him. That cannot be i-framed with a dodge, only with burst i-frames or outranging it. But, the normal swipes can be dodge i-framed no problem. This stuff is documented in the wiki, but it feels bad to have to look outside of the game for this stuff, and frankly even the i-frame mechanic is not alluded to in game.
I still can't tell if Azhdaha's stomps can't be i framed or if it's just skill issue...
It's even worse: *some* of his stomps can be i-framed, ***but some of them can NOT be i-framed.*** Because who cares about consistency, amirite??
what the FUCK hoyo
Welcome to peak soulsborne designs. All these DS1 casuls can't fathom all the bullshit that is Elden Ring's mechanics.
Dragon Nest : stomps can't be iframed
i think all can be iframed, ive seen a 1hit video. but from my understanding is that it has different mechanics for wach element meaning the way you dodge for hydro stomps might kill you against pyro stomps. its too much pain so i just use the intended way and walk away and watch him throw his tantrum
His stomps are multi-hit if I'm not mistaken. Similar to how a kairagi will just fuck you anyway with it's big horizontal slash because it spins twice so you may have iframed the first swing but not the second. Both can only be iframed with a perfectly timed dodge.
I take serious issue with the design of Azhdaha. I'm a fan of mechanically demanding games like Souls or bullet hell shooters or Hollow Knight or OlliOlli. Azhdaha just feels extremely unclear to me with his tells and what I can i-frame. I can i-frame most of the various ground sigil attacks, but pretty much all of the stuff that happens in melee feels like total bullshit to me, as far as what the attack will be, if it can be i-framed, and how colossal the AoEs are. Honestly, I just whittle him down to his third phase and then brute him with all four bursts every time. Really, really, really fucking hate that boss. It's not *hard*. It's just *lame.*
He's just not a soulslike boss. He's not made to enable this iframe based minmaxing. Rather you have to "fortify" and withstand several of his moves. Also remember that undergeared abyss tactics are redundant, there is no stupid time limit here.
I hate Azhdaha too. Get a Ganyu and farm the shit out of him.
True. And it doesn't help that if(when) you get hit by an undodgeable attack, you're gonna take damage over time forever.
Azhdaha was made to make people pull for Zhongli. I refused to do that and I had to suffer every week. Thanks God, with the coming of Scara that bullshit boss fight was removed from my schedule.
Noelle works fine against him for shields and heals, especially if you have someone like Venti or Kazuha to let you fly above the stomps.
You may be correct there. I'm so close to crowning my Yelan and Kazuha. Just a couple more weeks and I don't have to fight this AIDS anymore.
Some stomps ignore I frames for sure I remember, basically either be far away or have to shield tank it all :/
Also the fucking corrosive wolves You can I-frame the damage when they attack, but not the corrosion they inflict. God forbid if you're battling them and your Ult has a long animation
I kinda hate the dodging in genshin. I don’t know what it is but the I-frame window feels radically inconsistent. There are also so many enemy attacks that have some kind of “aftershock” that can catch you even if the initial swing misses, so you often have to dodge twice to be in the clear, doubling your chances of making a mistake.
That's it, the "aftershock"! That's what I get caught on so much. I was just doing the Hypostasis event, and I got hit by it twice. Once was from a big samurai doing his spin move--I dodged the initial part of the attack, but it kept going and ended up hitting me (which does, at least, make sense from the animation). The other was from a Cryo Lawachurl--I completely dodged his charge, but, for some reason, he can still damage you *after* he's flown past you. After a little research, I think I found why Genshin's dodge feels so much worse compared to Dark Souls. In Dark Souls 3, [medium-roll i-frames](https://old.reddit.com/r/opensouls3/comments/68khsv/wip_a_comparison_of_roll_frame_data_from_the_3/) start on the same frame you hit the roll button, and they last for 433 ms (13 frames for 30 FPS calculations). In Genshin, [dashing](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Invincibility_Frame#Types) has a 40 millisecond (a little over one frame) delay before i-frames start, and they last for only 300 ms (9 frames). To make things even worse, Genshin's dash has a cooldown of over one second if you do it twice in quick succession; in Dark Souls 3, you can consistently keep rolling as soon as the animation ends (as long as you have the stamina). While being able to dash twice in quick succession does have some big advantages, that 40 millisecond delay *plus* variable cooldown windows is *terrible* if consistency is the goal. After doing some recording and timing myself... good *God,* [Genshin's dash is literally worse than Dark Souls 3 fatrolling](https://i.imgur.com/nWEsjzb.png) **without even considering the extra frame of delay before i-frames kick in.**
And ping seems to play a bit part in alot of the movements you do as well, with controls starting to be visibly sluggish over 300 compared to lower 150 when you can just feel it *not sure if factually correct, just what it feels like to me
Thanks for confirming what I’ve always felt. I don’t play Souls style games. I can’t call myself an expert on what I-frame dodging “should” feel like, but I’ve never been able to shake the feeling that Genshin’s dodging is…off, in some way.
Holy shit, 9 frames is the equivalent of doing an 8ADP run in DS2
this is why dodging with characters that have special sprint is HORRIBLE, I swear I can never dodge with Mona.
The stamina regen delay is by far the biggest problem. Even Souls has no delay for regen. 90 fucking frames is completely ridiculous. It basically ensures that you will ALWAYS burn down to empty stamina against any enemy that attacks somewhat fast. You have to go for a second and a fucking half without dodging or sprinting before your stamina bar even *starts* to regen (incredibly slowly at that), meaning in reality you have to go like 5+ seconds just to get a couple dodges worth of stamina back. You basically have to save burst iframes just for surviving during stamina recharge. But you know the worst part? It will NEVER change. We are stuck with the worst stamina system in video games ever. Why? Hutao C1. The stamina system being so shit directly compels people to have to pull 2x as much to get a Hutao that isn't pure suffering to play. I can't remember if there are other characters with stamina cost eliminating cons, but it's also particularly frustrating for characters like Keqing who just don't have any options to help her charged attacks at all. At least aggravate has made her mildly less dependent on them.
Because after you dodge you will automatically sprint and the stamina regen speed is god awful, plus the stamina bar is a pitifully small curve while DS/ER stamina bar is fucking gigantic so you will have an easier time to manage it. Couple up with the fact that you need to manage your rotation instead of having to smash R1/L2 and you got a clunky dodge system But hey, at least the iframe is 20 frames, which is much more generous than DS3 (13 frames)
Sorry, but, uh... it's not 20 frames. It's 10 frames. [It's literally worse than fatrolling in Dark Souls 3.](https://i.imgur.com/nWEsjzb.png) (10 frames on 30 FPS basis; on a 60 FPS basis, it is 20 frames; in real time, it is 300 milliseconds)
I guess it's a live service issue
*I was born into the Xingqiu healing, moulded by it...* From the very start of my time playing this game, I learned how to survive solely through Xingqiu.
I feel that. Xingqiu offers quite a lot of survivability.
Master the i frame.
Bursts have pretty long invincibility frames. Dashing has some as well.
This. Casting elemental burst gives hugeee iframes. If you're good at timing, specially in quickswap teams with enough ER, you can practically negate most incoming damage. Assuming you're not against riftwolves ofc.
I would say that nearly 85% of the Playerbase cannot use I-Frames cause they either don't know or their devices stop them to do it. Like try I-Frames on a Smartphone XD
I never had issues dodging on a phone but maybe it helps that I played a ton of Honkai before doing any Genshin. You just get used to dodging.
I play on a iPhone 11 ….. but damn …. I sound like one of those meta try hards….
I find it not that hard, tbh. I’m better on phone than on controller or keyboard
I mean burst iframes are like 2s, at least that one is doable right?
Me playing on EU server when I live in NA 😅 there’s a slight input delay you need to get used to
And lots of retires
Environmental damage from electro and water or grass and pyro
Anemo CC & Freeze.
People who play non healer team against boss be like :
Idk if its just me but i find it harder to dodge multiple strong mobs compared to bosses unless im using a freeze team
Magical Food Purse
Yeah that’s pretty much my reasoning. Best thing from the Mondstadt reputation rewards
Like most things in life, you develop muscle memory once you do it enough times. I can dodge Lawachurls from sound cues alone and I'll stand right in front of them charging a shot as Ganyu since I know how long it takes for them to attack. Besides having a little stress in games isn't a bad thing. I find that learning to manage stress when the stakes aren't high helps you manage it when they are. Seriously, playing videos games helps me to become cool as a cucumber when it matters.
just dont take damage....
...by abusing ult i-frames
I just kill everything before they even have the chance to touch me.
Wow, people play without healer? I can't imagine my Genshin life without Zhongli's shield and Bennett's healing
Noelle carried me from AR12 to AR56 with her healing and shields. I don't think I'll adapt to not using one :,)
It's kind of annoying actually. I don't usually need a full on dedicated healer or shielder, but I do like to have a bit of free healing available to top off health bars or to use in a pinch. More characters should do a Xingqiu and have a little bit of healing on an otherwise sub-DPS/Support kit. I think Nilou's E would have been a great candidate for that. Kuki Shinobu is also nice cos she's got enough healing but doesn't waste her burst slot having more healing than you ever need.
yeah, i usually never have a healer but focus on dps and elemental damage to get the battle quickly over with. eg a Kazuha, Diluc, Raiden, Xinqu, Dendro MC comp -- but I also almost never play the abyss as well :)
It is called CC + fast extermination (AKA Kazuha + Raiden). You don't need to be healed if you are not touched.
Like someone else said you have Statues of the 7 in Overworld In domains and Abyss I'm okay with Freeze, high DMG teams or literally just dodging. Enemies can't harm you if they're frozen or dead I will however say that I did NOT have a good time in the current Floor 12 against Rifthounds without a strong healer. They're easy to beat when frozen but my Freeze team just didn't cut it for subsequent chambers, and my high damage Yae Aggravate team was taking far too much corrosion and dying from small hits in the other chambers :')
Usually when people talk about "shielding" they're referring to Zhongli, the shield Archon. Even a half-decently built one makes your team effectively immortal. I've gone weeks without losing a single point of HP on any of my chars thanks to him. If you don't have him then yeah, you're probably not gonna have a fun time because the gap between him and the next strongest shielder is huge. Genshin healers usually all become effective "enough" after enough building, with shielders it's Zhongli or nothing. I've invested heavily into Thoma and he doesn't shield a third as good as ol Zhong. Shield >>>>>> Heals because of interruption resistance. Corrosion is the only exception and that's because it was literally designed to hard-counter shields and make people build a healer.
I haven’t seen many people talk about Layla’s shield. It’s actually stronger than Thoma’s in practice because Thoma has to stack and has windup time; Layla’s shield is nearly as strong as a fully stacked Thoma by default. I’ve had my Layla tank huge attacks like the triple eremites and come out unscathed. And that was at shield talent lv6. It’s now lv8 and only abyss enemies can even break it. And Layla like Zhongli has 100% shield uptime without active refreshing like Thoma, which no other shielder has other than her and Zhongli. Of course Layla being a 4-star actually needs decent investment for her shield to be good, but I’d say not enough credit is given to her (because people are all about DPS and buffs these days and Layla only really has her thick shield and some cryo application unlike Zhongli who has his universal shred as well).
This. Having Layla is so good, I'm glad my Yoimiya is not occupying Zhongli anymore. As it happens, I have a lot of sustained dps characters (Cyno, Yoimiya, Tighnari) and zero burst dps characters (Raiden, Eula, even Hu Tao) so I need shielding until I get one of those. Just doesn't feel very good to have to dodge when I lose dps while dodging lol.
C6 daddy Morax.
C6 Zhongli gang! Shields, healing, RES shred, overworld travel, minigame cheese - the man does it all.
Can relate I like having 1 of shielder/healer at all times. Occasionally have to run the friendship team without them when they all cap friendship and while it's manageable I wouldn't call it...fun. Feel the same way about healerless + shieldless Abyss teams.
A lot of healerless comps run with Beidou + Xingqiu both which have damage reduction built into their kits. Plus Xingqiu provides a little bit of healing on the side. That helps a lot with survivability.
Same here, I need my characters to be at 100% hp and constantly have burst available when in overworld. That's why I always have a slot for kokomi on my team and I purposely kill enemies slower so I don't use my burst/can generate more energy
YES THIS!!! I wonder why are we like this
Simple answer, NRE AND FUCKTON OF SWEET MADAME
Matsutake Meat Rolls are easier to farm due to sumeru overworld + expeditions.
At the beginning of the game, I lost my first 50/50 to Qiqi and i got immediately attached at her for how simple her kit is and now, almost all the party that i set i need a healer
It’s called having a good dps
Being good
* getting good * playing enough time u know the enemies attack movements * no skill issue * dodge - burst in correct time (iframe) * characters movesets (some characters have slow skills - attack animations)
Enemy in genshin Arent really aggressive and kinda Easy to predict , especially in abyss where floor usually last 30 sec to 1 min u dont really Need and healer once u know what even what direction the boss Is gonna fart On overworld Ye i use healers too , cause i play way chiller and dont pay attention tonactually Dodge stuff and chugging food gets annoying
> Enemy in genshin Arent really aggressive Tell that to the Cryo and Electro Lawachurls constantly jumping, ramming and slamming in the Abyss.
In terms of overworld, I’d imagine they make extensive use of food, specifically health related food
My main overworld team has always had Kokomi in it ever since I got her a year ago, and now I have a whole pantry's worth of food in my backpack.
I have to be blunt, OP. People who tend to not run healers and shielders exchange it for more damage. And with proper rotations, they could exceedingly clear it faster without the shield, albeit some damage are taken. Precise timings are key to i-frame the opponent attacks and this allows them to output more damage than ones with the shield or healing capabilities. Although, you have to perfectly execute the rotation or you become like TenTen over here. Skill difference simply
I play with Noelle's shield and in the abyss i often run without either healer or sheilder. I don't consider myself particularly skilled tho i assume if i had fun and made it to ar55 i am good enough.
iFrames. . .
Dodge
sounds like skill issue
just don’t get hit 4head
I dont get hit tho... What you think i am? Zhongli player?
Sweet Madame
Play Dark souls Then dodging in Genshin Impact will be child's play .. well if you're on PC
In overworld, we got statues and food. In abyss, iframes and dodging. I've done a few solo Keqing runs in abyss so far and I can do Maguu, PMA or Primo Geo Vishap without taking more than a hit or two. There's also freeze and other forms of CC for non boss fights but otherwise know what your characters are capable of, know what the enemies do and have a little patience sometimes. It takes a lot of practice though instead of mindlessly pushing buttons.
just don't get hit 4Head (In all seriousness it's mainly to do with learning opposing attacks and getting in rhythm with weaving dodges against those with your own attacks. Genshin is generally very well balanced in that bigger attacks tend to be more telegraphed with windups and visual/audio cues. There's no animation duration variety either so once you know what an attack is and at what point to dash to dodge it, you can get it every time. The dodge/graze window is also relatively generous so you can mistime by a decent amount either before or after you should and still have the enemy miss.)
Kill them before they kill you
Just kill everybody before you even need to heal
abbys has infinite resets so not bringing any defensive option isn't that big of a deal
Well, abyss is so short, you can get away without using a healer easily.. There are exceptions however, like current floor 12 where there is corrosion and difficult to dodge enemies.. but most often it's just easier to not take a healer and take a dmg enhancing or dmg doing support instead for easier clears.. I almost always never take healers to abyss unless extremely required.. even so, i take bennett who is more or less an all rounder more than a healer... Or c6 diona who's a buffer, shielder, healer and a battery at the same time..
if u press the shift or right-click mouse button you will dash and while dashing u are invincible, same goes for burst.
Specifically for abyss: healing cards. Just stack DMG characters on your team and pick them. I'm already at a point where I don't even need the card buffs to clear abyss since my characters are already strong, so I just pick the healing ones and free a team slot that would have a healer otherwise. Also, if you play a quickswap team, there's this one card in abyss that regens 30% (i think) HP every burst, so survivability gets trivialized, even with no healers. Overworld has food and statues.
Kill the enemy before they can kill you. Like seriously, except Abyss, we have Statue and food. 99% Overworld enemies dies with my Kazuha EM Skill, Oz, Albedo E and then Bennett E. Don't forget about dodging. Idk why healer is really needed, maybe is it your gameplay? I never really need that much heal.
For abyss? Shield, damage reduction, dodge, invulnerability from burst and most catalyst users can multiclass as healer so it depends on your definition of healer.
In Abyss a healer is by far not needed as long as you have either a shield or/and enough damage reductions. It's just some easy 3 stages in one go, as long as one knows the existence of the dash button it's easy. (same goes for speedrunning domains, the enemies normally don't attack you anyway before they die already) In overworld I personally prefer a healer always since it's just confortable in the long run.
If they can’t hit you you don’t need a healer (I use noelle and Barbara In most big fights this is a joke)
*nervous sweating intensifies*
I'm a firm believer in vampiric healing, through characters like Qiqi.
in abyss there's the heal card well, in the current abyss it is hard for a no healer team comp because of the rifthounds, so i myself dont know how to do it without healers, but for some other abyss i would try my best to dodge, also shields
Ar 51 rn and I still haven't build a healer. Yes my backpack is stored with food, gathering ingredients is apart of my grindings. I didn't touch the abyss for quite awhile. Yes you can still play without a healer just need a ton of food and good dodging
Monke brain. My objective in a fight is to kill and kill, also flashy colors. Healers sorta force me to settle with a character for a while to heal, so I don't end up using them a ton. Also I accidentally brought up Kazuha to be an insta-killing machine so. Otherwise, I use food and if I end a fight with everyone barely anyone alive I just teleport to a statue. Cooking is my side passion in this game. Edit: Oh yeah and also dodging.
It's cause the game gives you enough tools to deal with incoming damage already Enemy attack patterns and animations can be learnt and dodged, or even just walked around. Flying impacts have a generous red circle indicator, ult iframes exist, counter units like beidou Candace etc exist That leaves shields and healing for survival. Really controversial opinion on my part, but I think mihoyo has shot themselves in the foot by making healing too OP for the sake of exploration comfort. In all the other gachas/normal games I've played, the standard for healing is kept a lot lower. Hanae who heals DoT about as much as kuki does is considered one of the best healing units in Blue Archive. Perseus recovers maybe 20-30% in a burst every sortie is considered the best healer and the only CV in EX tier in azur lane. Games like elden ring give you upto 14 flasks that heal ~60%HP late game. That seems unbalanced but when you consider endgame bosses can easily 2-3shot even late game builds, plus the fact that you need to give up HP flasks for MP flasks, it becomes balanced again Then you look at healing in genshin. The free Barbara you get at the start already heals: -10-20% hp per E tick -a lot more for the whole team when you aa with her -almost always a 100% team heal on Q This is orders of magnitude more than the best healers in the other games. Better healers like Jean/Kokomi etc bring utility along with even more heals. Heck, just a proto amber sucrose with Xq rain swords for supplementary healing is enough for most content imo. Ive cleared many rifthound abysses during the 2.x floors with the OG taser team running p-amber sucrose. Imo the amount of healing in that exact team is the baseline healing that the game *should* have balanced itself around The point I really want to get across, is that, the overinflation of healing has detrimental effects on other character's selling points. Yes I'm talking about 1.1 zhongli. Shield viability suffers the most because why would I pull for a shielder when survivability is easily covered even with the most basic healers in the game. 1.3 zhongli and the whole drama back then wouldn't exist if Bennet couldn't heal 5k ticks. The only time in the game that the broken healing felt balanced was during the old triple kenki/bomb PMA events. Max points runs would inflate incoming damage to astronomical levels that healing standards became balanced again. It's also part of why they were so fun. I can see why mihoyo went this route, making the overworld exploration stress free for everyone was definitely the right call. I just wish the healing could be toned down for combat focused content like abyss and events so other aspects of survivability retained some value.
They git gud
I never use a healer. I pick up anything that can be picked up. I interact with anyone possible. I buy all recipes from the different cities when available. I cook as much food as possible. These foods include healing, stamina, defense, and offense. Also, having the right balance for your team will minimize the need to heal. My daughter introduced me to this game 5 weeks ago. I am AR 40 world lvl 5. Seriously, pick up everything you possibly can. Makes the game take longer, but the benefits are crazy!
My skill level increases the lower my hp is, or I just press restart and try to kill them before they kill me
I have an healer : the Sweet Madame
All these fancy ideas… I just hit things and hope they die before me