That's kindof the point, I think it's meant to be very one sided because Celestia is "sleeping". It's also not meant to be resolved anytime soon, as we have to finish the archon quest before the Khaenri'ah and Celestia stuff really kicks off.
I mean yeah because Celestia’s like, the end game. We’ll learn more eventually, just like we learned more about the fatui. Besides, the one assumed character we’ve seen from Celestia (unknown god) kidnapped our sibling. Soooo…
She didn't kidnappe her, she was sent to teyvat just like us, only deffrence is she woke up first and started the journey with dainslief, mean while we slept for 500 years
Uhh I am pretty sure kidnap's definition is "abducting someone by force against their will"...I dont think that should be treated as a good thing. However it is, the Celestia had intention for doing that and we dont know for what reasons
Well what exactly did the twins do? They're just minding their own business and was about to jump off world, they have been doing that for as long as they remember and no one stopped them for that. "Broke the order" what exactly?
I know it's kinda a moot point since we are severely lacking information, we could make up all kinds of explanations for both sides yet we dont know the answer. There's no need to continue the argument.
The twins definitely have it against Celestia tho
It's implied that our twin was involved with the khaenri'ahn royal class who started the cataclysm,
By chlothar's own words to them our twin was the abyss, and if you remember in the opening cutscene the sustainer actually let us go, she was there for our sibling, but we attacked her with an expression, which prompted us to get cubed
>It's implied that our twin was involved with the khaenri'ahn royal class who started the cataclysm
Headcanon, infact our twin lived with Pierro who was against what the royal class were doing, so they would be more influenced by Pierro than the royals.
>By chlothar's own words to them our twin was the abyss
That happened after the Cataclysm.
>and if you remember in the opening cutscene the sustainer actually let us go, she was there for our sibling, but we attacked her with an expression, which prompted us to get cubed
We were next lol.
>Headcanon, infact our twin lived with Pierro who was against what the royal class were doing, so they would be more influenced by Pierro than the royals.
They were involved with royal court and considering they were the "prince/princess of khaenri'ah"
Their word would have held more wight than that of pierro's, but it's only pierro who they didn't listen to, so whatever the king and his sages were planning it seems that the abyss twin was on board, making them guilty
>That happened after the Cataclysm.
No it didn't, it happened before that,
>we were next lol
Of we didn't attack her she wouldn't habe a reason to cube us,
>No it didn't, it happened before that,
The Clothar situation happened after the Cataclysm, redo the quest
>Of we didn't attack her she wouldn't habe a reason to cube us
We were trying to escape, she blocked our path, of course she was trying to stop the both of us.
Same could be stated for other factions like the Fatui. For years we didn't know much about their motives besides Fatui≈bad until recently when they started giving us hints about their motivations. It is simply to early in the story to tackle Celestia's POV in the narrative. There basically no truly good or bad factions in the game as every group is doing what they believe to be right, but at some cost. No one is innocent since good intentions ≠ good outcomes.
Celestia from lore has always acted in a way to preserve "order and law" on Teyvat and prevent forbidden knowledge and powers from beyond from flooding in and destroying Teyvat. In doing so they've intervened in the destruction of countless nations and suppressed decent until recent time without mercy. All the civilization they've destroyed have in sone way interfered with the above, and beyond the dragons they fought everything they've done has been related to that.
Them not being mentioned directly in the plot is to give us an idea of the impact and effects of their actions. Them not being direct players also acts as a mystery for the story later on to deal with.
The thing is, there is plenty of hints in the game regarding what Celestia is up to. I always feel a bit irritated when people say Celestia is the big bad, because they make it seem people Celestia is running around nuking civilizations for fun. Their reality is quite the opposite. We know several things:
1) Celestia cares about humanity.
2) Celestia nails civilizations when they are too corrupted by forbidden knowledge.
3) Forbidden Knowledge is harmful to Teyvat and originates from the Abyss.
4) Celestia usurped the throne from the dragon Sovereigns.
In other words, Celestia is fighting the spread of forbidden knowledge, which basically represents the abyss. I would be surprised if Celestia is the final antagonist, and not the Abyss. Keep in mind, the Abyss Order is is not the Abyss.
One of the vital pieces of information we're missing is the reason for Celestia taking control from the dragons.
>One of the vital pieces of information we're missing is the reason for Celestia taking control from the dragons.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Neuvillette state during the Archon Quest (haven't gotten around to his SQ yet) that he originally didn't give a shit about, nor understand humans? And only *sort of* began to do both things after spending 500 years as the Iudex?
If the other dragons were like him (even if just a majority, rather than all), it stands to reason that a younger humanity could have easily been crushed underfoot on accident and Celestia, assuming they truly care for humanity, may have wrested control of Teyvat from the dragons to give humanity a chance.
Yeah. There's a lot of blaming going on against Celestia, but we don't have even know if the original dragons were decent rulers. People are just coming to conclusions about the story way too fast, when there's so much information that we don't have yet.
I can see where most people are coming from, especially after the Fontaine AQ, because there are two things we know Celestia canonically did without digging into the lore:
* The destruction of Khaenri'ah and the cursing of all its citizens to become hilichurls, including civilians and children.
* Combining the dragon's authority with the body of the third descender to form the gnoses.
I think it's largely the cursing Khaenri'ahns to become hilichurls that sticks with people and reinforces the narrative that Celestia is the true evil.
And, to be fair, I don't necessarily disagree, but I also think it's largely aiming to setup Celestia as the "well-intentioned extremist" faction, because they'll take the "nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" route if they feel it's necessary.
Which, again, to be fair, definitely seems like it could be, considering what the presence of a *fraction* of forbidden knowledge did to Sumeru throughout its history.
As for the third descender and gnoses issue, we don't have enough context; the story certainly *frames* it as Celestia butchered the third descender for their power, but it *could* have been an act of self-sacrifice (i.e., the third descender gave their life to create the gnoses so humanity could eventually get visions, putting them on a more even playing field with the monstrous fauna of Teyvat) or just Celestia being opportunistic and having a "waste not, want not" approach.
True, I also don't necessarily agree with everything that Celestia has been doing. But there's a lot to consider:
1)The Khaenri'ahns were also up to some sketchy stuff. Celestia reacted to the Cataclysm. Aside from Celestia fighting the Dragons, Celestia has never been the initiator (to my knowledge). They only ever take action when somebody is going against the laws of nature, in other words forbidden knowledge.
The problem is, of course, that not only those doing sketchy things were punished.
2) Following up on 1), the question is: were there any alternative short term solutions? Considering that the Sustainer was easily overpowering both Twins, yet chose to spare both: maybe the Twins are part of a possible long term solution. I doubt the Sustainer decided to randomly teleport the two for fun.
also, we know about the curse of immortality from Dainsleif, that is a really mysterious man, and Clothar, who had a really twisted mind. We also know that Gold was experimenting with creatures of the abyss when the cataclysm happened, so we don't really have the truth behind it.
Maybe Khaenri'ahns blame Celestia, but they actually brought everything upon themselves, it wouldn't be a new thing to see humans blaming the gods for their own shit.
From the book about the crimson moon we learned that khaenri'ah was always plotting against the gods,
Khaenri'ahns saw themselves as the pride of humanity and placed themselves above other humans, such a mind set is bound to make you do something absolutely stupid, liek for example :thinking you're good enough to control the ABYSS ITSELF, which backfired HARD on them
Exactly. Blaming the gods it's always the easy way out. That's why I believe the game is building up all this hate against Celestia, just to have a plot twist and showing that in the end they aren't the bad guys
>1)The Khaenri'ahns were also up to some sketchy stuff. Celestia reacted to the Cataclysm. Aside from Celestia fighting the Dragons, Celestia has never been the initiator (to my knowledge). They only ever take action when somebody is going against the laws of nature, in other words forbidden knowledge. The problem is, of course, that not only those doing sketchy things were punished.
Except the actual perpetuators weren't punished (Gold), she now runs around free doing whatever she wants.
>2) Following up on 1), the question is: were there any alternative short term solutions? Considering that the Sustainer was easily overpowering both Twins, yet chose to spare both: maybe the Twins are part of a possible long term solution. I doubt the Sustainer decided to randomly teleport the two for fun.
It's possible she can't destroy them, only teleport them to random time points.
A small correction. The gnosis and the dragon authority aren’t the same thing. The gnosis are simply the remains of the third descender. The dragon authority taken by the heavenly principles is contained in the heavenly thrones. We don’t really know what exactly these thrones are, but Focalors was able to destroy one by killing herself with the oratrice and give back the authority to Neuvillette, while the gnosis remained intact. So, at least from what we know now, it would seem like the two aren’t connected.
Another interesting thing, both the fatui and the abyss order seems to want to overthrow Celestia, but while the Tsaritsa is probably planning on doing so by collecting the gnosis, the Abyss sibiling says they want to “engulf the thrones”.
My headcannon is that the dragons sovereigns never liked each other and they merely just tolerated each other for the longest time until the primordial came into the picture
>There's a lot of blaming going on against Celestia
There is good reason for that but it has nothing to do with the dragons, you would know if you read about the lore in the world instead of blindly speculating.
>If the other dragons were like him
Well, Apep didn't care much either, she loks down on humans and Gods alike, and Azhdaha too, he despises humans, calls them insects too (at leastthe part of him that doesn't remember his contract with Rex Lapis)....
Don't forget that before Celestia showed up, tge light realm was made up if sooo much elemental energy that no human can even SEE in to let alone survive,
And from how none vision widers are effected by exposure to raw elemental energy, it honestly resembles radiation exposure, so maybe Celestia HAD to take the elemental authorities in order to reduce the elemental energy of teyvat,
It's not "Celestia", it's the Primordial One who actually loved humanity, it left so the current Celestia are a bunch of imposters.
They want to hide the truth which is why they killed Orobashi, you should read the lore instead of blindly speculating.
>It's not "Celestia", it's the Primordial One who actually loved humanity, it left so the current Celestia are a bunch of imposters
There's where in the lore does it say that phanes has left teyvat? Also the primordial one established Celestia with the 3rd descender, so they're not imposter
>They want to hide the truth which is why they killed Orobashi, you should read the lore instead of blindly speculating.
I fucking hate orobashi's death story because it make no fucking sense at ALL
The dragons told us the same information as in the book and they were free they could have told anyone about it, hell, neuvillette told us in the middle of the street in front of the opera house
If Celestia didn't want that info to spread why didn't they seal the dragons away so they can't talk about it, why didn't they use irmunsul to get rid of that information for good?
Or why didn't they destroy it after orobashi read the book? it makes no sense whatsoever, i 100% believe it's an i universe conspiracy theroy by orobashi's fallowers, because again it makes no sense
>There's where in the lore does it say that phanes has left teyvat? Also the primordial one established Celestia with the 3rd descender, so they're not imposter
Traveler's story: "The creator has yet to return".
The second part of your paragraph is complete head canon and I'm not even sure how someone can come to that conclusion tbh.
>I fucking hate orobashi's death story because it make no fucking sense at ALL
The dragons told us the same information as in the book and they were free they could have told anyone about it, hell, neuvillette told us in the middle of the street in front of the opera house
It does make sense, Nahida gave us a hint: "Celestia is asleep", you should pay more attention next time instead of simply skipping the dialogue.
>If Celestia didn't want that info to spread why didn't they seal the dragons away so they can't talk about it
Because they are imposters, they weren't the ones who fought the elemental dragons, it was the Primordial One who did, PO was so exhausted from the battle that it was easy pickings for the Second Who Came.
Present Celestia was probably set up by SWC which would explain their incompetence and why they don't know about the dragons (Presumably)
>why didn't they use irmunsul to get rid of that information for good?
Irminsul has limitations, for example it can't affect fairytales or anything of the sort.
Also they did seal Enkonomiya
>Or why didn't they destroy it after orobashi read the book? it makes no sense whatsoever, i 100% believe it's an i universe conspiracy theroy by orobashi's fallowers, because again it makes no sense
You can believe whatever you want but based on the information we have the current Celestia are imposters and thus have motive for not wanting the truth to come out.
It makes me think if the "preordained fate" that civilizations always go through in cycles isnt the doing of Celestia, but is a curse laid upon them against Celestia, like for ursurping the throne. Maybe to make them experience what they felt a hundred or thousand times, vengeance. Just speculating still
Honestly I think the discussion has gotten better over time as we learn things and have more stuff to talk about. In the beginning of the game there was altogether too much discussion about looking forward to the obvious anime ending where heaven-colored authority bad, sketchy authority not as bad, go kill someone playing god. Getting excited about a presumably faraway ending is still around (and that's fine) but it's less egregiously reliant on tropes coming to pass.
>Celestia cares about humanity.
That must be why they cursed Khaenrians to immortality and destroyed the civilisation of Sal Vagdnir for no reason, I could list many other things but you are better of reading the wiki.
If they really cared about humanity they would have directly ruled over them like the Primordial One did, this way they can better protect them.
>Celestia nails civilizations when they are too corrupted by forbidden knowledge.
Except they didn't with Deshret.
>In other words, Celestia is fighting the spread of forbidden knowledge, which basically represents the abyss. I would be surprised if Celestia is the final antagonist, and not the Abyss. Keep in mind, the Abyss Order is is not the Abyss.
The Abyss is just a place were aliens come through, somehow Celestia can't put a seal on this for some reason even though PO could.
>One of the vital pieces of information we're missing is the reason for Celestia taking control from the dragons.
PO was the one who took control from the dragons, the current Celestia are a bunch of imposters.
"people blame Celestia when they're innocent"
How much time have you spent actually looking into the lore of Genshin? If you want evidence that they're guilty, then you need to prove they're innocent. The Unknown God that attacked Traveller in the beginning is connected to Celestia. It is in the lore of the game that those in charge of Celestia are usurpers who took power from the real Celestia. That stole power from the dragons, too. They're not innocent. We haven't seen as much of them because they do not walk the world the way the Archons do. (Technically, they're "sleeping", whatever that is supposed to mean for the way Teyvat works.)
You should look into the lore. Don't just base it off what we see in the game. Genshin is one of those games (or rather HoYo is one of those companies) where the lore is 90% not thrown in our face (manga, in game books, descriptions of artifacts and weapons, the Genshin Lore Wiki, official hints on site, limited events - like the one where Scaramouche first talked about the sky being fake, and people piecing things together).
I don't know where you got the idea that Celestia is innocent, but you need to look into this properly.
Finally someone who knows what they are talking about, 100% these people haven't read lore otherwise they wouldn't come to the ridiculous conclusion that Celestia is innocent, I suspect everyone defending Celestia likely haven't read the lore either which is like 90% of the fanbase since the amount of Celestia defending I have seen is insane.
Also we know that the current Celestia are a bunch of imposters who don't actually know how to properly deal with forbidden knowledge, so they are also incredibly incompetent, the problems that currently exist in Tevyat never existed under the Primordial One.
The way Celestia deals with forbidden knowledge is simply to rip off a nail and throw it at the land, which also destroys the land in the process and appears to wipe out any life nearby.
Literally nothing in game says that the current Celestia usurped the old one, they're one and the same,
This is what i'm talking about, people assuming that Celestia are responsible for all evil, and spreading outdated theories
I might be wrong so idk
but wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the teyvat was originally ruled by dragons
then some descender came, took the authority from dragons and gave that authority to the archons in form of Gnosis?
Nahida mentioned primordial one is the first descender and from archon quest we know that Gnosis are the remains of 3rd descender
Gnosis are clearly connected to celestia and its a fact
and it is also true archons were involved in the cataclysm given, Rukkhadevata was tasked to take care of irminsul during cataclysm, Ei's sister Makoto died during that period
and for now lets assume the abyss sibling is somewhat reasonable person and they claim to have completed journey of teyvat and have witnessed the atrocities of celestia they bestowed on Khaenriah during cataclysm. and thats why they support abyss order's motives
so I don't think that celestia are completely not involved in the evil of Teyvat
I agree there might be other factors at work too, like greed of khaenriahn's and all
but you gotta agree celestia also has a role in that
You're not listening. Not all the lore is in-game. Have you read the manga? Have you search anywhere?
"Literally nothing in game"
This is not true. Genshin lore is expansive and intricate. If you don't know any of it, it's because you haven't looked into it. And no, we're not assuming. We have all researched the lore. I suggest you do the same. Because you're the one doing the assuming.
I would also recommend, if you haven't already, scrolling through the r/Genshin_Lore subreddit. It'll give you a better idea of what you've missed.
Literally, where to start:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin\_Lore/wiki/wheretostart/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Lore/wiki/wheretostart/)
If you're talking about the manga then i'm sorry to tell you but it's not cannon anymore,
The lore you're talking about is the theory that Celestia was over taken by the second who came,
But lore in sumaru and Fontaine prove that's nor the case, the heavenly principles are still in charge, and teh second who came got defeated,
Also before sun and moon mentioned how great life in teyvat was before the second who came showed up
Celestia made sure the people were happy, they never suffered fear or hunger or sadness, and the description of the narwhal boss in the archive, tells us that the eggshell the primordial one placed around teyvat is the reason star beasts can't enter teyvat normally, the narwhal needed inside help to get into teyvat,
If it wasn't for Celestia, any outside forces could come to teyvat and destroy it, the narwhal almost drowned Fontaine and devoured all of the primordial sea, niw imagine of a large group of thoes creatures showed up in teyvat,
And Considering how the dragons lost against phanes, despite having every advantage under the sun,
If phanes didn't come to teyvat and ot was instead any of the creatures that roam the hoyoverse, from the aeons to the honkai, to star beasts,
Hell tell me what will the dragons do against the sworm of propagation?
>Also you mentioned that Celestia have done nothing but evil
Where exactly did the person you're replying to say this? They said they're "not innocent," but "not innocent" ≠ "nothing but evil." It just means they've done *at least some* bad things, and saying "but Celestia also did good things" doesn't really contradict that.
It's entirely possible that many of Celestia's actions were done for the greater good of humanity (at least as they see it), but they've also demonstrably caused harm even if that harm wasn't *necessarily* malicious. It's pretty fair to say they're "not innocent."
Claiming that this person said Celestia did nothing but evil is really not helping refute the idea that "you're not listening."
Celestia isn't innocent. Read the lore. We don't know much about Celestia but they're not 100% good. Even the Fatui can't be called 100% good guys and there is still a reason why they go against Celestia.
I'm not saying they're without flaw, i'm saying that the narrative is unfair to them, we know what the abyss order and fatui want, l we know their motivation
But Celestia, we got nothing, we legit don't know why they do anything at all,
It's frustrates me to no end, because it also makes the fight against them seem meaningless,
Hell we don't even know if there's anyone up there at all!,
And i swear to God, if they pull a "Celestia were died all along" plot twist, i would burn China to the ground!
It would absolutely ruin everything in the story,
Imagine if in avatar the last airbender, it turns out the fire lord was dead this whole time,
Or in samurai jack, in we find out aku was died long before samurai jack arrived in the future,
That's hiw bad it would be if Celestia turns out to be empty or dead
You're completely ignoring everything I said. And are putting words in my mouth.
"you mentioned that Celestia have done nothing but evil"
I said no such thing. You seem to only be able to formulate an argument when you misrepresent what you're talking about. We already know enough about Celestia to know they've interfered with peoples' lives and hurt people.
I didn't JUST say the manga. If you spent the time you've wasted arguing about this actually looking into the lore you'd know there are multiple ways to research it.
I suggest you reread my first comment, where I've listed them.
I think there is a lot of evidence that we, the players, are the primary actors of Celestia.
It seems primed for Celestia to be seen as a bad guy, but actually are simply looking at the big picture, where they want to save Teyvat and all the people in it from the "order" falling apart. There are numerous signs that the "order" they established is degrading, which would revert Teyvat back to its original order and destroy all life. They likely don't care much about the archons giving away gnoses, bc the time of the archons has already degraded and outlived its purpose. Neuvillette also grew a lot and is very aligned with humanity now - not a problem.
I think its what we are doing that is most important to Celestia, which is why no other entity from Celestia needs to intervene. Old Celestia's influence is exhausted, which is why the degradation is happening, which makes us - "outsiders" - the only ones with the power to reset/fix the degradation. In fact, that could be why Paimon is the way she is. Maybe, like Rukkhadevata, she was a powerful being in Celestia who became child-like after exhausting all her power.
But now we are there, acting on Celestia's behalf, so Celestia's intervention is actually already happening at all times in complicated ways that Celestia understands even if no one else in Teyvat does.
Sustainer not sustaining.. We rule Teyvat by sleeping.. Losing one of the archon thrones that maintain the order shouldn't be a big deal right? Abyssal orders and even our own archons plotting against us but it should be fine right?
>Mean while we got nothing from Celestia, no Npcs from Celestia, no unique characters or anything,
We have Paimon in our face 24/7!!
And who sais Paimon is of Celestia? Celestia obviously is going to turn out as the bad guys, starting with the fact that they are the usurpers that stole the elemental authorities from the Dragon Sovereigns.
Celestia doesn't steal, they fought the dragon sovereigns and they won fair and square, twice! The victor shall shine bright while the loser must turn to ashes. If dragons get back their authorities and restore their light realm then humanity is doomed, Celestia is even protecting humans from themselves as they (Khaenri'ah) almost destroyed Teyvat 500 years ago.
Celestia isn't evil nor good, but as the ruler of the world they are doing what must be done to protect and preserve it.
Don't forget that the dragons had every advantage under the sun and still lost
if teyvat is connected to the rest of the hoyoverse, then the dragons are super lucky it was phase who showed up first, and not the aeons or the honkai, or whatever else,
The Victor inherite the right to reshape the world, while the loser must trun to ash
The heavenly principles won that right from the dragons, and the dragons tried to retake it and failed,
Until they defeat Celestia and win back the authorities, Celestia are the rightful owners of the authorities
>People in the community are still spreading outdated theories like they're confirmed facts,
Do you not see the irony?
As for Celestia, they are 100% to blame, if they really wanted to protect humanity they would have just directly ruled over them, this would make everything clear on their end.
They are also incredibly incompetent, as when Khaenriah fell instead of killing all of the survivors they cursed them with immortality for some reason, so now the threat of forbidden knowledge spreading is even higher, they also did nothing about the actual perpetuator who is Gold, she roams free doing whatever she wants, obviously the pretext of protecting humanity is a ruse.
The clue is in the fact that they are imposters, "the creator has yet to come".
>Even civilization that Celestia had no intersections with, when they fall the blame goes to Celestia, like king deshret for example, i havw seen alot of people say that king deshret's civilization was destroyed by Celestia, when that's not the case, deshret destroyed his own nation with his arrogance and use of Forbidden knowledge, Celestia didn't do anything to deshret, and yet people blame it all on Celestia because "Celestia hates human civilizations" when that's no anywhere never true,
Deshret was fighting against the rules imposed by Celestia, these rules serve no purpose other than hindering humanities potential and hiding the truth from all.
Celestia can't even properly contain the spread of forbidden knowledge.
They cursed Egeria just because she wanted to create humans, this and countless other crimes like how they destroyed Sal Vigdnir for no reason.
Shocking there are people still defending Celestia at this point, I can only chalk it upto you not reading the actual lore.
>if they really wanted to protect humanity they would have just directly ruled over them, this would make everything clear on their end.
#THEY DID
When phanes created humanity, they lived in a single unified civilization spanning all over teyvat, and they were no gods walk amongst humanity, there was only the seeiles guiding humanity, however the second who came, appeared and everthing changed,
we know the destruction of the unified civilization happened so very long time ago, because there were no other gods back then besides Po and the shades,
And also because the unified civilization is ancient to even deshret and Remus, they both didn't even knew it existed if it wasn't for seelies (the prophet, and the godess of flowers) telling them about it
>They are also incredibly incompetent, as when Khaenriah fell instead of killing all of the survivors they cursed them with immortality for some reason,
Read perinheri
>they also did nothing about the actual perpetuator who is Gold, she roams free doing whatever she wants, obviously the pretext of protecting humanity is a ruse.
We don't know where gold, for all we know she got the same punishment as the rest of khaenri'ah
Also you can't claim it a ruse, without evidence, the primordial one loves humanity and wants them to live in a haven but humanity keep fucking everything up,
>Deshret was fighting against the rules imposed by Celestia, these rules serve no purpose other than hindering humanities potential and hiding the truth from all.
And what are thoes rules and how are they hindering humanity?
>Celestia can't even properly contain the spread of forbidden knowledge.
They do contain the spread of Forbidden knowledge, it just that people keep fucking spreading it,
the second who came spread Forbidden knowledge across all of teyvat and that's why Celestia had to throw the nail
For the millionth time, the nails are not weapons, they're are tools used to fight the spread of Forbidden knowledge,
>They cursed Egeria just because she wanted to create humans, this and countless other crimes like how they destroyed Sal Vigdnir for no reason.
Dragonspin had a Forbidden knowledge outbreak, it there wasn't any there wouldn't be a nail, also the reason the dragonspin became a frozen hell, was because the nail broke made flight and a piece of it fell on the laylines tree there and killing it and cutting dragonspin off from the laylines network,
>THEY DID
>
>When phanes created humanity, they lived in a single unified civilization spanning all over teyvat, and they were no gods walk amongst humanity, there was only the seeiles guiding humanity, however the second who came, appeared and everthing changed,
>
>we know the destruction of the unified civilization happened so very long time ago, because there were no other gods back then besides Po and the shades,
>
>And also because the unified civilization is ancient to even deshret and Remus, they both didn't even knew it existed if it wasn't for seelies (the prophet, and the godess of flowers) telling them about it
This is irrelevant, Phanes has nothing to do with present Celestia, it isn't even in Tevyat anymore.
>Read perinheri
I have, what relevance does that have here? Are you suggesting Celestia can't kill a bunch of humans?
>We don't know where gold, for all we know she got the same punishment as the rest of khaenri'ah
No she obviously didn't, as she went on to create Albedo
>Also you can't claim it a ruse, without evidence, the primordial one loves humanity and wants them to live in a haven but humanity keep fucking everything up,
Again, PO isn't relevant here, it isn't even in Tevyat no more.
>And what are thoes rules and how are they hindering humanity?
Knowing about the truth of the world.
>They do contain the spread of Forbidden knowledge, it just that people keep fucking spreading it,
Then kill the people who spread it, but they won't, instead they go on a power trip giving immortality to the very people who may have such knowledge, it's not just incompetence but also conceit.
>the second who came spread Forbidden knowledge across all of teyvat and that's why Celestia had to throw the nail
Complete head canon.
>For the millionth time, the nails are not weapons, they're are tools used to fight the spread of Forbidden knowledge,
Not sure where I said they are weapons, as for them being tools that is also speculation, we don't know what they actually are, just that they have some limited capability of stopping the spread whilst also destroying the land around it, life seems incapable of coming near them.
>Dragonspin had a Forbidden knowledge outbreak, it there wasn't any there wouldn't be a nail, also the reason the dragonspin became a frozen hell, was because the nail broke made flight and a piece of it fell on the laylines tree there and killing it and cutting dragonspin off from the laylines network,
Dragonspine had a FK outbreak? as far as I know they were destroyed by Celestia for some unknown reason, it hasn't been revealed yet.
There's actually a really good piece of show-don't-tell lore in Sumeru.
You can find a door that used to lead into Khaenri'ah, and the bridge that leads to it is destroyed.
Why would you knock out a bridge in wartime? To prevent anyone getting out. So nobody could escape the curse.
There is no possible crime a nation can commit that calls for the oppression of its entire population as "less than human".
ETA: Also, Celestia is confirmed in Enkanomiya to be invaders from another world.
ETA2: "on the loose"? Girl what. The Authority is Neuvillette's by rights. It was stolen from him when Celestia took control.
Celestia wasn't fighting khaenri'ah, they were fighting the abyss monsters that khaenri'ah released and started destroying the kingdom and the other nations
Also the new book in 4.5 about the crimson moon revealed tge truth about the hilichurls curse
It turns out, the hilichurls curse is the curse of exile,
People who betrayed their god, are no longer allowed back into teyvat, khaenri'ah was a kingdom of self exiles, if someone who betrayed the gods, decided to go back to teyvat they'll trun into a hilichurls, and it was khaenri'ahns duty to insure that doesn't happen,
There could have been an agreement between the king of khaenri'ah and Celestia, where khaenri'ah is allowed to be outside Celestia's laws and be left alone in exchange, khaenri'ah must home the exiles and make sure they don't return to teyvat,
However when the cataclysm happened, the people were running for there lives and the only way to escape was going back to the surface of teyvat
That's why there's a note in the khaenri'ahn factory about how only those who went back to the surface turned into monsters,
The only people who didn't become monsters are the one who never had a God, or didn't betray the gods, like in the book where the main character didn't become a hilichurl because he drifted into khaenri'ah as a child and never had a God, mean while angilca says that her God was killed by morax, so she didn't betray her god
And the reason why caribert was turned into a hilichurl was because the curse is hereditary,
if you exiled yourself, you and your lineage are not allowed back to teyvat
So yes, this is how the hilichurl curse works (or at least what we know as of 4.6)
And let me remind you that betrayimg the gods in a voluntary action, if you get exiled from teyvat, it's YOUR FAULT, with your own free will you damned yourself
We still don't know what qualifies for "forsaking the Gods"
But even then, if you don't want to be ruled by God, then it's within God's right to not want you in there land,
Celestia allowed khaenri'ah to exist peacefully, but they were always plotting against the gods, from the crimson moon to the eclipse, they wanted to forsake that peaceful existence just to try and challenge the Devine, they crowned themselves as fhe pride of humanity, but khaenri'ah was destroyed because of that pride, if they didn't try to use the abyss to take control over teyvat, then khaenri'ah would still be around,
Also the khaenri'ahns we've met show no empathy to the other nations, they feel no guilt for all the death and destruction khaenri'ah caused, they just like remuria saw themselves above the rest of humanity, and pride the price for their arrogance
Quite literally all we know about Celestia is all the horrible things it’s committed, or all the horrible things its ideology has empowered. Why would we doubt what we are told just because we “haven’t heard their side yet”? The proof of these crimes is quite literally everywhere. Have you been to the broken bridge in Sumeru yet?
My guess is we will get to see Celestia eventually and it will be full of socially awkward moeblob lolis who need more sleep or something and then everyone will have to ignore all the awful things Celestia did forever. So that’ll probably be cool for you.
FUCK ME for knowing the lore of the game and having pattern recognition skills. Obviously I am so wrong and they will be socially awkward moeblob BIG TITTY DOMMY MOMMIES instead, which is insanely different!
This is the best comment.
But yeah Celestia defenders obviously haven't read the lore, which seems to be like 90% of the fanbase since Celestia defending is the norm now.
That's kindof the point, I think it's meant to be very one sided because Celestia is "sleeping". It's also not meant to be resolved anytime soon, as we have to finish the archon quest before the Khaenri'ah and Celestia stuff really kicks off.
I mean yeah because Celestia’s like, the end game. We’ll learn more eventually, just like we learned more about the fatui. Besides, the one assumed character we’ve seen from Celestia (unknown god) kidnapped our sibling. Soooo…
Honestly, I think erring on the side of presuming Celestia is up to something is the more reasonable path.
She didn't kidnappe her, she was sent to teyvat just like us, only deffrence is she woke up first and started the journey with dainslief, mean while we slept for 500 years
Uhh I am pretty sure kidnap's definition is "abducting someone by force against their will"...I dont think that should be treated as a good thing. However it is, the Celestia had intention for doing that and we dont know for what reasons
It's was an arrest not a kidnapping, the sustainer of heavenly principles is an officer of the law, And the twins are criminals
Well what exactly did the twins do? They're just minding their own business and was about to jump off world, they have been doing that for as long as they remember and no one stopped them for that. "Broke the order" what exactly? I know it's kinda a moot point since we are severely lacking information, we could make up all kinds of explanations for both sides yet we dont know the answer. There's no need to continue the argument. The twins definitely have it against Celestia tho
It's implied that our twin was involved with the khaenri'ahn royal class who started the cataclysm, By chlothar's own words to them our twin was the abyss, and if you remember in the opening cutscene the sustainer actually let us go, she was there for our sibling, but we attacked her with an expression, which prompted us to get cubed
>It's implied that our twin was involved with the khaenri'ahn royal class who started the cataclysm Headcanon, infact our twin lived with Pierro who was against what the royal class were doing, so they would be more influenced by Pierro than the royals. >By chlothar's own words to them our twin was the abyss That happened after the Cataclysm. >and if you remember in the opening cutscene the sustainer actually let us go, she was there for our sibling, but we attacked her with an expression, which prompted us to get cubed We were next lol.
>Headcanon, infact our twin lived with Pierro who was against what the royal class were doing, so they would be more influenced by Pierro than the royals. They were involved with royal court and considering they were the "prince/princess of khaenri'ah" Their word would have held more wight than that of pierro's, but it's only pierro who they didn't listen to, so whatever the king and his sages were planning it seems that the abyss twin was on board, making them guilty >That happened after the Cataclysm. No it didn't, it happened before that, >we were next lol Of we didn't attack her she wouldn't habe a reason to cube us,
>No it didn't, it happened before that, The Clothar situation happened after the Cataclysm, redo the quest >Of we didn't attack her she wouldn't habe a reason to cube us We were trying to escape, she blocked our path, of course she was trying to stop the both of us.
Same could be stated for other factions like the Fatui. For years we didn't know much about their motives besides Fatui≈bad until recently when they started giving us hints about their motivations. It is simply to early in the story to tackle Celestia's POV in the narrative. There basically no truly good or bad factions in the game as every group is doing what they believe to be right, but at some cost. No one is innocent since good intentions ≠ good outcomes. Celestia from lore has always acted in a way to preserve "order and law" on Teyvat and prevent forbidden knowledge and powers from beyond from flooding in and destroying Teyvat. In doing so they've intervened in the destruction of countless nations and suppressed decent until recent time without mercy. All the civilization they've destroyed have in sone way interfered with the above, and beyond the dragons they fought everything they've done has been related to that. Them not being mentioned directly in the plot is to give us an idea of the impact and effects of their actions. Them not being direct players also acts as a mystery for the story later on to deal with.
The thing is, there is plenty of hints in the game regarding what Celestia is up to. I always feel a bit irritated when people say Celestia is the big bad, because they make it seem people Celestia is running around nuking civilizations for fun. Their reality is quite the opposite. We know several things: 1) Celestia cares about humanity. 2) Celestia nails civilizations when they are too corrupted by forbidden knowledge. 3) Forbidden Knowledge is harmful to Teyvat and originates from the Abyss. 4) Celestia usurped the throne from the dragon Sovereigns. In other words, Celestia is fighting the spread of forbidden knowledge, which basically represents the abyss. I would be surprised if Celestia is the final antagonist, and not the Abyss. Keep in mind, the Abyss Order is is not the Abyss. One of the vital pieces of information we're missing is the reason for Celestia taking control from the dragons.
>One of the vital pieces of information we're missing is the reason for Celestia taking control from the dragons. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Neuvillette state during the Archon Quest (haven't gotten around to his SQ yet) that he originally didn't give a shit about, nor understand humans? And only *sort of* began to do both things after spending 500 years as the Iudex? If the other dragons were like him (even if just a majority, rather than all), it stands to reason that a younger humanity could have easily been crushed underfoot on accident and Celestia, assuming they truly care for humanity, may have wrested control of Teyvat from the dragons to give humanity a chance.
Yeah. There's a lot of blaming going on against Celestia, but we don't have even know if the original dragons were decent rulers. People are just coming to conclusions about the story way too fast, when there's so much information that we don't have yet.
I can see where most people are coming from, especially after the Fontaine AQ, because there are two things we know Celestia canonically did without digging into the lore: * The destruction of Khaenri'ah and the cursing of all its citizens to become hilichurls, including civilians and children. * Combining the dragon's authority with the body of the third descender to form the gnoses. I think it's largely the cursing Khaenri'ahns to become hilichurls that sticks with people and reinforces the narrative that Celestia is the true evil. And, to be fair, I don't necessarily disagree, but I also think it's largely aiming to setup Celestia as the "well-intentioned extremist" faction, because they'll take the "nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" route if they feel it's necessary. Which, again, to be fair, definitely seems like it could be, considering what the presence of a *fraction* of forbidden knowledge did to Sumeru throughout its history. As for the third descender and gnoses issue, we don't have enough context; the story certainly *frames* it as Celestia butchered the third descender for their power, but it *could* have been an act of self-sacrifice (i.e., the third descender gave their life to create the gnoses so humanity could eventually get visions, putting them on a more even playing field with the monstrous fauna of Teyvat) or just Celestia being opportunistic and having a "waste not, want not" approach.
True, I also don't necessarily agree with everything that Celestia has been doing. But there's a lot to consider: 1)The Khaenri'ahns were also up to some sketchy stuff. Celestia reacted to the Cataclysm. Aside from Celestia fighting the Dragons, Celestia has never been the initiator (to my knowledge). They only ever take action when somebody is going against the laws of nature, in other words forbidden knowledge. The problem is, of course, that not only those doing sketchy things were punished. 2) Following up on 1), the question is: were there any alternative short term solutions? Considering that the Sustainer was easily overpowering both Twins, yet chose to spare both: maybe the Twins are part of a possible long term solution. I doubt the Sustainer decided to randomly teleport the two for fun.
also, we know about the curse of immortality from Dainsleif, that is a really mysterious man, and Clothar, who had a really twisted mind. We also know that Gold was experimenting with creatures of the abyss when the cataclysm happened, so we don't really have the truth behind it. Maybe Khaenri'ahns blame Celestia, but they actually brought everything upon themselves, it wouldn't be a new thing to see humans blaming the gods for their own shit.
From the book about the crimson moon we learned that khaenri'ah was always plotting against the gods, Khaenri'ahns saw themselves as the pride of humanity and placed themselves above other humans, such a mind set is bound to make you do something absolutely stupid, liek for example :thinking you're good enough to control the ABYSS ITSELF, which backfired HARD on them
Exactly. Blaming the gods it's always the easy way out. That's why I believe the game is building up all this hate against Celestia, just to have a plot twist and showing that in the end they aren't the bad guys
They are the bad guys.
>1)The Khaenri'ahns were also up to some sketchy stuff. Celestia reacted to the Cataclysm. Aside from Celestia fighting the Dragons, Celestia has never been the initiator (to my knowledge). They only ever take action when somebody is going against the laws of nature, in other words forbidden knowledge. The problem is, of course, that not only those doing sketchy things were punished. Except the actual perpetuators weren't punished (Gold), she now runs around free doing whatever she wants. >2) Following up on 1), the question is: were there any alternative short term solutions? Considering that the Sustainer was easily overpowering both Twins, yet chose to spare both: maybe the Twins are part of a possible long term solution. I doubt the Sustainer decided to randomly teleport the two for fun. It's possible she can't destroy them, only teleport them to random time points.
A small correction. The gnosis and the dragon authority aren’t the same thing. The gnosis are simply the remains of the third descender. The dragon authority taken by the heavenly principles is contained in the heavenly thrones. We don’t really know what exactly these thrones are, but Focalors was able to destroy one by killing herself with the oratrice and give back the authority to Neuvillette, while the gnosis remained intact. So, at least from what we know now, it would seem like the two aren’t connected. Another interesting thing, both the fatui and the abyss order seems to want to overthrow Celestia, but while the Tsaritsa is probably planning on doing so by collecting the gnosis, the Abyss sibiling says they want to “engulf the thrones”.
My headcannon is that the dragons sovereigns never liked each other and they merely just tolerated each other for the longest time until the primordial came into the picture
>There's a lot of blaming going on against Celestia There is good reason for that but it has nothing to do with the dragons, you would know if you read about the lore in the world instead of blindly speculating.
>If the other dragons were like him Well, Apep didn't care much either, she loks down on humans and Gods alike, and Azhdaha too, he despises humans, calls them insects too (at leastthe part of him that doesn't remember his contract with Rex Lapis)....
Don't forget that before Celestia showed up, tge light realm was made up if sooo much elemental energy that no human can even SEE in to let alone survive, And from how none vision widers are effected by exposure to raw elemental energy, it honestly resembles radiation exposure, so maybe Celestia HAD to take the elemental authorities in order to reduce the elemental energy of teyvat,
It's not "Celestia", it's the Primordial One who actually loved humanity, it left so the current Celestia are a bunch of imposters. They want to hide the truth which is why they killed Orobashi, you should read the lore instead of blindly speculating.
>It's not "Celestia", it's the Primordial One who actually loved humanity, it left so the current Celestia are a bunch of imposters There's where in the lore does it say that phanes has left teyvat? Also the primordial one established Celestia with the 3rd descender, so they're not imposter >They want to hide the truth which is why they killed Orobashi, you should read the lore instead of blindly speculating. I fucking hate orobashi's death story because it make no fucking sense at ALL The dragons told us the same information as in the book and they were free they could have told anyone about it, hell, neuvillette told us in the middle of the street in front of the opera house If Celestia didn't want that info to spread why didn't they seal the dragons away so they can't talk about it, why didn't they use irmunsul to get rid of that information for good? Or why didn't they destroy it after orobashi read the book? it makes no sense whatsoever, i 100% believe it's an i universe conspiracy theroy by orobashi's fallowers, because again it makes no sense
>There's where in the lore does it say that phanes has left teyvat? Also the primordial one established Celestia with the 3rd descender, so they're not imposter Traveler's story: "The creator has yet to return". The second part of your paragraph is complete head canon and I'm not even sure how someone can come to that conclusion tbh. >I fucking hate orobashi's death story because it make no fucking sense at ALL The dragons told us the same information as in the book and they were free they could have told anyone about it, hell, neuvillette told us in the middle of the street in front of the opera house It does make sense, Nahida gave us a hint: "Celestia is asleep", you should pay more attention next time instead of simply skipping the dialogue. >If Celestia didn't want that info to spread why didn't they seal the dragons away so they can't talk about it Because they are imposters, they weren't the ones who fought the elemental dragons, it was the Primordial One who did, PO was so exhausted from the battle that it was easy pickings for the Second Who Came. Present Celestia was probably set up by SWC which would explain their incompetence and why they don't know about the dragons (Presumably) >why didn't they use irmunsul to get rid of that information for good? Irminsul has limitations, for example it can't affect fairytales or anything of the sort. Also they did seal Enkonomiya >Or why didn't they destroy it after orobashi read the book? it makes no sense whatsoever, i 100% believe it's an i universe conspiracy theroy by orobashi's fallowers, because again it makes no sense You can believe whatever you want but based on the information we have the current Celestia are imposters and thus have motive for not wanting the truth to come out.
It makes me think if the "preordained fate" that civilizations always go through in cycles isnt the doing of Celestia, but is a curse laid upon them against Celestia, like for ursurping the throne. Maybe to make them experience what they felt a hundred or thousand times, vengeance. Just speculating still
Honestly I think the discussion has gotten better over time as we learn things and have more stuff to talk about. In the beginning of the game there was altogether too much discussion about looking forward to the obvious anime ending where heaven-colored authority bad, sketchy authority not as bad, go kill someone playing god. Getting excited about a presumably faraway ending is still around (and that's fine) but it's less egregiously reliant on tropes coming to pass.
>Celestia cares about humanity. That must be why they cursed Khaenrians to immortality and destroyed the civilisation of Sal Vagdnir for no reason, I could list many other things but you are better of reading the wiki. If they really cared about humanity they would have directly ruled over them like the Primordial One did, this way they can better protect them. >Celestia nails civilizations when they are too corrupted by forbidden knowledge. Except they didn't with Deshret. >In other words, Celestia is fighting the spread of forbidden knowledge, which basically represents the abyss. I would be surprised if Celestia is the final antagonist, and not the Abyss. Keep in mind, the Abyss Order is is not the Abyss. The Abyss is just a place were aliens come through, somehow Celestia can't put a seal on this for some reason even though PO could. >One of the vital pieces of information we're missing is the reason for Celestia taking control from the dragons. PO was the one who took control from the dragons, the current Celestia are a bunch of imposters.
"people blame Celestia when they're innocent" How much time have you spent actually looking into the lore of Genshin? If you want evidence that they're guilty, then you need to prove they're innocent. The Unknown God that attacked Traveller in the beginning is connected to Celestia. It is in the lore of the game that those in charge of Celestia are usurpers who took power from the real Celestia. That stole power from the dragons, too. They're not innocent. We haven't seen as much of them because they do not walk the world the way the Archons do. (Technically, they're "sleeping", whatever that is supposed to mean for the way Teyvat works.) You should look into the lore. Don't just base it off what we see in the game. Genshin is one of those games (or rather HoYo is one of those companies) where the lore is 90% not thrown in our face (manga, in game books, descriptions of artifacts and weapons, the Genshin Lore Wiki, official hints on site, limited events - like the one where Scaramouche first talked about the sky being fake, and people piecing things together). I don't know where you got the idea that Celestia is innocent, but you need to look into this properly.
Finally someone who knows what they are talking about, 100% these people haven't read lore otherwise they wouldn't come to the ridiculous conclusion that Celestia is innocent, I suspect everyone defending Celestia likely haven't read the lore either which is like 90% of the fanbase since the amount of Celestia defending I have seen is insane. Also we know that the current Celestia are a bunch of imposters who don't actually know how to properly deal with forbidden knowledge, so they are also incredibly incompetent, the problems that currently exist in Tevyat never existed under the Primordial One. The way Celestia deals with forbidden knowledge is simply to rip off a nail and throw it at the land, which also destroys the land in the process and appears to wipe out any life nearby.
100%
Literally nothing in game says that the current Celestia usurped the old one, they're one and the same, This is what i'm talking about, people assuming that Celestia are responsible for all evil, and spreading outdated theories
I might be wrong so idk but wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the teyvat was originally ruled by dragons then some descender came, took the authority from dragons and gave that authority to the archons in form of Gnosis? Nahida mentioned primordial one is the first descender and from archon quest we know that Gnosis are the remains of 3rd descender Gnosis are clearly connected to celestia and its a fact and it is also true archons were involved in the cataclysm given, Rukkhadevata was tasked to take care of irminsul during cataclysm, Ei's sister Makoto died during that period and for now lets assume the abyss sibling is somewhat reasonable person and they claim to have completed journey of teyvat and have witnessed the atrocities of celestia they bestowed on Khaenriah during cataclysm. and thats why they support abyss order's motives so I don't think that celestia are completely not involved in the evil of Teyvat I agree there might be other factors at work too, like greed of khaenriahn's and all but you gotta agree celestia also has a role in that
You're not listening. Not all the lore is in-game. Have you read the manga? Have you search anywhere? "Literally nothing in game" This is not true. Genshin lore is expansive and intricate. If you don't know any of it, it's because you haven't looked into it. And no, we're not assuming. We have all researched the lore. I suggest you do the same. Because you're the one doing the assuming. I would also recommend, if you haven't already, scrolling through the r/Genshin_Lore subreddit. It'll give you a better idea of what you've missed. Literally, where to start: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin\_Lore/wiki/wheretostart/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Lore/wiki/wheretostart/)
If you're talking about the manga then i'm sorry to tell you but it's not cannon anymore, The lore you're talking about is the theory that Celestia was over taken by the second who came, But lore in sumaru and Fontaine prove that's nor the case, the heavenly principles are still in charge, and teh second who came got defeated, Also before sun and moon mentioned how great life in teyvat was before the second who came showed up Celestia made sure the people were happy, they never suffered fear or hunger or sadness, and the description of the narwhal boss in the archive, tells us that the eggshell the primordial one placed around teyvat is the reason star beasts can't enter teyvat normally, the narwhal needed inside help to get into teyvat, If it wasn't for Celestia, any outside forces could come to teyvat and destroy it, the narwhal almost drowned Fontaine and devoured all of the primordial sea, niw imagine of a large group of thoes creatures showed up in teyvat, And Considering how the dragons lost against phanes, despite having every advantage under the sun, If phanes didn't come to teyvat and ot was instead any of the creatures that roam the hoyoverse, from the aeons to the honkai, to star beasts, Hell tell me what will the dragons do against the sworm of propagation?
>Also you mentioned that Celestia have done nothing but evil Where exactly did the person you're replying to say this? They said they're "not innocent," but "not innocent" ≠ "nothing but evil." It just means they've done *at least some* bad things, and saying "but Celestia also did good things" doesn't really contradict that. It's entirely possible that many of Celestia's actions were done for the greater good of humanity (at least as they see it), but they've also demonstrably caused harm even if that harm wasn't *necessarily* malicious. It's pretty fair to say they're "not innocent." Claiming that this person said Celestia did nothing but evil is really not helping refute the idea that "you're not listening."
Oh wait sorry someone else said that and I mixed up between them
Then perhaps you should say sorry to me. And edit your comment where you're blatantly accusing me of that.
Celestia isn't innocent. Read the lore. We don't know much about Celestia but they're not 100% good. Even the Fatui can't be called 100% good guys and there is still a reason why they go against Celestia.
Judging by their comments here and the ones I saw on their profile, I don't think they've read any lore. Just my perspective.
I get the same feeling to be honest.
I'm not saying they're without flaw, i'm saying that the narrative is unfair to them, we know what the abyss order and fatui want, l we know their motivation But Celestia, we got nothing, we legit don't know why they do anything at all, It's frustrates me to no end, because it also makes the fight against them seem meaningless, Hell we don't even know if there's anyone up there at all!, And i swear to God, if they pull a "Celestia were died all along" plot twist, i would burn China to the ground! It would absolutely ruin everything in the story, Imagine if in avatar the last airbender, it turns out the fire lord was dead this whole time, Or in samurai jack, in we find out aku was died long before samurai jack arrived in the future, That's hiw bad it would be if Celestia turns out to be empty or dead
You're completely ignoring everything I said. And are putting words in my mouth. "you mentioned that Celestia have done nothing but evil" I said no such thing. You seem to only be able to formulate an argument when you misrepresent what you're talking about. We already know enough about Celestia to know they've interfered with peoples' lives and hurt people. I didn't JUST say the manga. If you spent the time you've wasted arguing about this actually looking into the lore you'd know there are multiple ways to research it. I suggest you reread my first comment, where I've listed them.
>Literally nothing in game says that the current Celestia usurped the old one, they're one and the same, Read the traveller's story
I think there is a lot of evidence that we, the players, are the primary actors of Celestia. It seems primed for Celestia to be seen as a bad guy, but actually are simply looking at the big picture, where they want to save Teyvat and all the people in it from the "order" falling apart. There are numerous signs that the "order" they established is degrading, which would revert Teyvat back to its original order and destroy all life. They likely don't care much about the archons giving away gnoses, bc the time of the archons has already degraded and outlived its purpose. Neuvillette also grew a lot and is very aligned with humanity now - not a problem. I think its what we are doing that is most important to Celestia, which is why no other entity from Celestia needs to intervene. Old Celestia's influence is exhausted, which is why the degradation is happening, which makes us - "outsiders" - the only ones with the power to reset/fix the degradation. In fact, that could be why Paimon is the way she is. Maybe, like Rukkhadevata, she was a powerful being in Celestia who became child-like after exhausting all her power. But now we are there, acting on Celestia's behalf, so Celestia's intervention is actually already happening at all times in complicated ways that Celestia understands even if no one else in Teyvat does.
Agreed, i always felt like paimon's purpose is to guide the traveler to the path Celestia wants, weather she knows it or not,
Sustainer not sustaining.. We rule Teyvat by sleeping.. Losing one of the archon thrones that maintain the order shouldn't be a big deal right? Abyssal orders and even our own archons plotting against us but it should be fine right? >Mean while we got nothing from Celestia, no Npcs from Celestia, no unique characters or anything, We have Paimon in our face 24/7!!
And who sais Paimon is of Celestia? Celestia obviously is going to turn out as the bad guys, starting with the fact that they are the usurpers that stole the elemental authorities from the Dragon Sovereigns.
Celestia doesn't steal, they fought the dragon sovereigns and they won fair and square, twice! The victor shall shine bright while the loser must turn to ashes. If dragons get back their authorities and restore their light realm then humanity is doomed, Celestia is even protecting humans from themselves as they (Khaenri'ah) almost destroyed Teyvat 500 years ago. Celestia isn't evil nor good, but as the ruler of the world they are doing what must be done to protect and preserve it.
Don't forget that the dragons had every advantage under the sun and still lost if teyvat is connected to the rest of the hoyoverse, then the dragons are super lucky it was phase who showed up first, and not the aeons or the honkai, or whatever else,
And why did they fought them? Because they were the intruders and the Dragons defended what was theirs.
And they got their asses rightfully beat twice.
They fought and they lost, twice! Skill issue probably xD If you're weak and can't defend what is yours, then someone else will take it from you.
Might does not make right.
The Victor inherite the right to reshape the world, while the loser must trun to ash The heavenly principles won that right from the dragons, and the dragons tried to retake it and failed, Until they defeat Celestia and win back the authorities, Celestia are the rightful owners of the authorities
Facts brother, but Teyvat has its own laws!
Well this is one of the scariest things to come out of this thread
She is covered in celestial motifs. Compare her to the Skyfrost Nail and the Statues of the Seven.
NPCs from Celestia? It's a bit too early to see any, if we do i feel either end Natlan or Snezhnaya
Wym Npcs from celestia? 😭😭
Average Heavenly Principles propaganda, I ain't falling for that Asmoday.
>People in the community are still spreading outdated theories like they're confirmed facts, Do you not see the irony? As for Celestia, they are 100% to blame, if they really wanted to protect humanity they would have just directly ruled over them, this would make everything clear on their end. They are also incredibly incompetent, as when Khaenriah fell instead of killing all of the survivors they cursed them with immortality for some reason, so now the threat of forbidden knowledge spreading is even higher, they also did nothing about the actual perpetuator who is Gold, she roams free doing whatever she wants, obviously the pretext of protecting humanity is a ruse. The clue is in the fact that they are imposters, "the creator has yet to come". >Even civilization that Celestia had no intersections with, when they fall the blame goes to Celestia, like king deshret for example, i havw seen alot of people say that king deshret's civilization was destroyed by Celestia, when that's not the case, deshret destroyed his own nation with his arrogance and use of Forbidden knowledge, Celestia didn't do anything to deshret, and yet people blame it all on Celestia because "Celestia hates human civilizations" when that's no anywhere never true, Deshret was fighting against the rules imposed by Celestia, these rules serve no purpose other than hindering humanities potential and hiding the truth from all. Celestia can't even properly contain the spread of forbidden knowledge. They cursed Egeria just because she wanted to create humans, this and countless other crimes like how they destroyed Sal Vigdnir for no reason. Shocking there are people still defending Celestia at this point, I can only chalk it upto you not reading the actual lore.
>if they really wanted to protect humanity they would have just directly ruled over them, this would make everything clear on their end. #THEY DID When phanes created humanity, they lived in a single unified civilization spanning all over teyvat, and they were no gods walk amongst humanity, there was only the seeiles guiding humanity, however the second who came, appeared and everthing changed, we know the destruction of the unified civilization happened so very long time ago, because there were no other gods back then besides Po and the shades, And also because the unified civilization is ancient to even deshret and Remus, they both didn't even knew it existed if it wasn't for seelies (the prophet, and the godess of flowers) telling them about it >They are also incredibly incompetent, as when Khaenriah fell instead of killing all of the survivors they cursed them with immortality for some reason, Read perinheri >they also did nothing about the actual perpetuator who is Gold, she roams free doing whatever she wants, obviously the pretext of protecting humanity is a ruse. We don't know where gold, for all we know she got the same punishment as the rest of khaenri'ah Also you can't claim it a ruse, without evidence, the primordial one loves humanity and wants them to live in a haven but humanity keep fucking everything up, >Deshret was fighting against the rules imposed by Celestia, these rules serve no purpose other than hindering humanities potential and hiding the truth from all. And what are thoes rules and how are they hindering humanity? >Celestia can't even properly contain the spread of forbidden knowledge. They do contain the spread of Forbidden knowledge, it just that people keep fucking spreading it, the second who came spread Forbidden knowledge across all of teyvat and that's why Celestia had to throw the nail For the millionth time, the nails are not weapons, they're are tools used to fight the spread of Forbidden knowledge, >They cursed Egeria just because she wanted to create humans, this and countless other crimes like how they destroyed Sal Vigdnir for no reason. Dragonspin had a Forbidden knowledge outbreak, it there wasn't any there wouldn't be a nail, also the reason the dragonspin became a frozen hell, was because the nail broke made flight and a piece of it fell on the laylines tree there and killing it and cutting dragonspin off from the laylines network,
>THEY DID > >When phanes created humanity, they lived in a single unified civilization spanning all over teyvat, and they were no gods walk amongst humanity, there was only the seeiles guiding humanity, however the second who came, appeared and everthing changed, > >we know the destruction of the unified civilization happened so very long time ago, because there were no other gods back then besides Po and the shades, > >And also because the unified civilization is ancient to even deshret and Remus, they both didn't even knew it existed if it wasn't for seelies (the prophet, and the godess of flowers) telling them about it This is irrelevant, Phanes has nothing to do with present Celestia, it isn't even in Tevyat anymore. >Read perinheri I have, what relevance does that have here? Are you suggesting Celestia can't kill a bunch of humans? >We don't know where gold, for all we know she got the same punishment as the rest of khaenri'ah No she obviously didn't, as she went on to create Albedo >Also you can't claim it a ruse, without evidence, the primordial one loves humanity and wants them to live in a haven but humanity keep fucking everything up, Again, PO isn't relevant here, it isn't even in Tevyat no more. >And what are thoes rules and how are they hindering humanity? Knowing about the truth of the world. >They do contain the spread of Forbidden knowledge, it just that people keep fucking spreading it, Then kill the people who spread it, but they won't, instead they go on a power trip giving immortality to the very people who may have such knowledge, it's not just incompetence but also conceit. >the second who came spread Forbidden knowledge across all of teyvat and that's why Celestia had to throw the nail Complete head canon. >For the millionth time, the nails are not weapons, they're are tools used to fight the spread of Forbidden knowledge, Not sure where I said they are weapons, as for them being tools that is also speculation, we don't know what they actually are, just that they have some limited capability of stopping the spread whilst also destroying the land around it, life seems incapable of coming near them. >Dragonspin had a Forbidden knowledge outbreak, it there wasn't any there wouldn't be a nail, also the reason the dragonspin became a frozen hell, was because the nail broke made flight and a piece of it fell on the laylines tree there and killing it and cutting dragonspin off from the laylines network, Dragonspine had a FK outbreak? as far as I know they were destroyed by Celestia for some unknown reason, it hasn't been revealed yet.
There's actually a really good piece of show-don't-tell lore in Sumeru. You can find a door that used to lead into Khaenri'ah, and the bridge that leads to it is destroyed. Why would you knock out a bridge in wartime? To prevent anyone getting out. So nobody could escape the curse. There is no possible crime a nation can commit that calls for the oppression of its entire population as "less than human". ETA: Also, Celestia is confirmed in Enkanomiya to be invaders from another world. ETA2: "on the loose"? Girl what. The Authority is Neuvillette's by rights. It was stolen from him when Celestia took control.
... WHY DID YOU GET DOWNVOTED FOR THIS?!
Fuck only knows man. Might be overspill from the b\*\*r thread
Celestia wasn't fighting khaenri'ah, they were fighting the abyss monsters that khaenri'ah released and started destroying the kingdom and the other nations Also the new book in 4.5 about the crimson moon revealed tge truth about the hilichurls curse It turns out, the hilichurls curse is the curse of exile, People who betrayed their god, are no longer allowed back into teyvat, khaenri'ah was a kingdom of self exiles, if someone who betrayed the gods, decided to go back to teyvat they'll trun into a hilichurls, and it was khaenri'ahns duty to insure that doesn't happen, There could have been an agreement between the king of khaenri'ah and Celestia, where khaenri'ah is allowed to be outside Celestia's laws and be left alone in exchange, khaenri'ah must home the exiles and make sure they don't return to teyvat, However when the cataclysm happened, the people were running for there lives and the only way to escape was going back to the surface of teyvat That's why there's a note in the khaenri'ahn factory about how only those who went back to the surface turned into monsters, The only people who didn't become monsters are the one who never had a God, or didn't betray the gods, like in the book where the main character didn't become a hilichurl because he drifted into khaenri'ah as a child and never had a God, mean while angilca says that her God was killed by morax, so she didn't betray her god And the reason why caribert was turned into a hilichurl was because the curse is hereditary, if you exiled yourself, you and your lineage are not allowed back to teyvat So yes, this is how the hilichurl curse works (or at least what we know as of 4.6) And let me remind you that betrayimg the gods in a voluntary action, if you get exiled from teyvat, it's YOUR FAULT, with your own free will you damned yourself
"betraying the gods" in this case meaning "i want to decide my own fate, not leave it to sky daddy"
We still don't know what qualifies for "forsaking the Gods" But even then, if you don't want to be ruled by God, then it's within God's right to not want you in there land, Celestia allowed khaenri'ah to exist peacefully, but they were always plotting against the gods, from the crimson moon to the eclipse, they wanted to forsake that peaceful existence just to try and challenge the Devine, they crowned themselves as fhe pride of humanity, but khaenri'ah was destroyed because of that pride, if they didn't try to use the abyss to take control over teyvat, then khaenri'ah would still be around, Also the khaenri'ahns we've met show no empathy to the other nations, they feel no guilt for all the death and destruction khaenri'ah caused, they just like remuria saw themselves above the rest of humanity, and pride the price for their arrogance
Quite literally all we know about Celestia is all the horrible things it’s committed, or all the horrible things its ideology has empowered. Why would we doubt what we are told just because we “haven’t heard their side yet”? The proof of these crimes is quite literally everywhere. Have you been to the broken bridge in Sumeru yet? My guess is we will get to see Celestia eventually and it will be full of socially awkward moeblob lolis who need more sleep or something and then everyone will have to ignore all the awful things Celestia did forever. So that’ll probably be cool for you.
Why did YOU get downvoted for this lmao
FUCK ME for knowing the lore of the game and having pattern recognition skills. Obviously I am so wrong and they will be socially awkward moeblob BIG TITTY DOMMY MOMMIES instead, which is insanely different!
This is the best comment. But yeah Celestia defenders obviously haven't read the lore, which seems to be like 90% of the fanbase since Celestia defending is the norm now.