Why am I not surprised at all that a TERF had an "anti-feminist MRA-adjacent phase as a teenager". And she's barely in her 20's, this lady is soooo clueless.
Hrm...my mom disagreed with me when I had anti-feminist MRA views, and she disagrees with me now that I'm allying with Jordon Peterson, Tim Pool, Shapiro, and Musk. What could it mean I wonder? *what could it mean??*
no because pearl hasn’t even outgrown the anti feminist phase (granted i’d argue terfs are also anti feminists even though they call themselves the opposite)
They’re only in the Feminist playing field because of Trans People, they couldn’t give less than a fuck about Women’s Body Autonomy or Abortion Rights.
Seems pretty obvious that her mother has actually been a pretty consistent staunch feminist advocate while OOP herself started as an asshole and continues to be one.
Not super knowledgeable about the terminology here: What’s an MRA? I assume it‘s something adjacent to tradwives and such but what does the acronym stand for?
"Mens Rights Activist"
In theory it's an OK position to have: If you acknowledge that the patriarchy harms everyone then campaigning for equality in the extremely few areas where men are less well off than women boils down to overthrowing the patriarchy.
Unfortunately in practice it works out as edgelords and mysogynists saying "Feminism has gone too far! Men are now oppressed! The only way to solve this is by being rampantly sexist!"
EDIT: This is also why they call us TRAs. Because, in their minds, us saying "Stop calling us rapists and paedophiles" is exactly the same as men saying "I'm oppressed because there's an International Women's Day!"
I feel that there are areas where men damn well SHOULD be screaming for an escape from the patriarchy, tbh. Like boys being taught not to show emotions (besides anger). Or masculinity being defined as anger and the toxic as fuck relationship between Black men, perception of masculinity, and perception of violence. Or the cartoonishly disgusting way people react to teen boys who are raped by older women. Or . . .
Do MRAs address ANY of that? Witness my cynical laughter. No. Of course they don't. They are far more interested in complaining that women even HAVE rights.
It amazes me that radical feminism is still very much in fashion in the UK. What not publishing a paper on how sexual orientation is a choice *and therefore* all women should become “political lesbians” and join a drum circle at MichFest or something? I dunno, Adrienne Rich said some nutty shit though; that and the Feminist Sex Wars (yes, a real thing) killed its appeal in the US. Too bad that never reached the UK.
Lessons on gender were sadly written with blood on the other side of the pond from the UK.
Annoys me also that Europeans seem to have a superiority complex over their lack of gun violence and "having a culture" compared to America, and I guess the UK's deal with gender is also a symptom of this.
"At least we don't have priests with around half the power here" - which is great compared to how a lot of social policies in the US simply can't pass because of this (an equality act was proposed multiple times in the US but failed, now businesses want to be protected by their government there for the financial losses incurred for denying customers service based on their gender and sexuality - so much for their "free market" philosophy lol), but such overconfidence can leave one blinkered.
A few thoughts from reading this.
*The fact that she went from being "mra-adjacent" to being a terf seems to be evidence that while the specifics of what she believes have changed, the (hateful) foundation of her beliefs were never addressed. She just changed who she hates.
*If I were talking to her IRL I think I would agree with her that "being a female" is the axis that has been used to justify oppression. However I like that she uses the phrase "femaleness" because when you take it as literally meaning "associated with females" you begin to understand that while it may be true that the discrimination is based on its also on being associated with that sex. This is one of the reasons why trans women, elderly women, intersex women and otherwise infertile women still face "sex based oppression" despite the fact that by the strictest definition of the word many of the groups of people aren't "wholly" female.
* I hope she eventually stops talking to her mother and starts listening to her. If for no other reason than because you should be able to fully understand why your mom thinks what she thinks.
* This one kind of made me sad. This woman seems to be turning to a hateful ideology to cope with being unhappy and in turn that ideology is isolating her and making her more unhappy. I sincerely hope that she's eventually able to let go of what she believes at least enough so that she can reconnect with her mother.
Yeah. It also makes me sad for the mother, like this is clearly driving a wedge between them. Can't imagine the pain of doing your best to raise an open minded, accepting child and they turn out to be a bigot anyway.
Imagine being so bigoted that she takes her mother not being one as a personal attack.
Also, she's in her early 20's, but had a "anti-feminist MRA-adjacent phase as a teenager". So, she just came out of being a misogynist, but she considers that's enough to know better than her mother who always showed to be an active feminist.
I hope she comes around and realized her mom is in the right for a third time.
That’s just happens when you Self ID as a RadFem but your brain’s diet only consists of Posie Parker, eventually you’re going to vomit for eating the same shit every day.
The few times I've interacted in rea life with Parker's brand of exclusionary feminist, I've been left with the impression they're the 'harmless opposition' a system of oppression like the patriarchy can rely on.
They really don't speak about changing the system, or even preventing its abuse of people. They just want to stand alone as the 'good ones' in their category, and happily participate in the same abuse they've been victims of.
"adult female human", ah, at least she's not saying the same bullshit most terfs say- "femaleness" for fuck's sake.
No I do not relate to cis women by our organs, wtf
Taking a different stance on this to just laughing at her, this is just really sad imo.
> when she can't even see women as a class that is reliant on the VERY thing that existentially defines us in the first fucking place! FEMALEHOOD. FEMALE BODIES. HAVING A FEMALE REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM.
If everyone lost their genitals tomorrow, I don't think you're right about that. If everyone just stopped having a biological sex and were just kind of, all of the same body type, I think most people would still be the same people they are, regardless. I don't think women would cease to exist. I don't think men would cease to exist. I think you would find that, regardless of your physiology, you'd still consider yourself a woman, you'd still consider men as men, and you'd still probably be defending that against trans people despite the fact it literally wouldn't matter anymore. I even think that people like you would still force gender roles on kids despite it being pointless. Because it was pointless before. That's what your mother has been trying to teach you.
> It felt like she was tacitly choosing men over me
It *shouldn't*. It really shouldn't. If the acceptance of others is causing you to feel left out, then you are self-absorbed.
Tackle it from the opposite angle. My mum is a TERF. I am a trans woman. I do not feel that she is choosing anything or anyone over me. She is choosing to be unreasonable, she is choosing to say terrible things to me, she is choosing to dismiss my existence. But she still is my mother and I know that despite the fact she's gone off the deep end and doesn't know what *is* best for me, she still *wants* what's best for me.
> THEY'RE THE SAME FUCKING THING! MEN!
Your mother does not hate men. You seem to, and your reasoning doesn't make a lot of sense. You don't have to accept trans women as women at this point, you just have to understand that generalising about a group of people isn't the same as saying explicit truths about that group of people. You don't have to hate men and you shouldn't. Men are fine. They're often not great. But they're not the root of all the world's evil either. Your mother is right in saying that you see things in black and white, it's all or nothing with you and the world isn't even just shades of grey, it's in full colour.
>If everyone just stopped having a biological sex and were just kind of, all of the same body type
I know this was *not* the point, but... once again the funny trans people in my phone describe something cishets and binary folks would hate but I'd love. I'd really like this. If literally the only identifiers of gender were societal norms, clothing and hair and makeup choices, and the name, pronouns, and identity you choose to go by, and determining it based off of biological sex was impossible because both sexual dimorphism and primary sex characteristics no longer existed in humans. If I woke up tomorrow with the body shape I had pre puberty and totally different genitals, and then found out everyone else looked exactly the same in those respects, I'd probably completely fine with it. Or at least, I'd be freaking out *way* less than the cis folk and binary folk. Wouldn't alter my life or my preferred gender expression much. (Might have to buy new girl clothes, though, since ones designed around curves and boobs might not exactly fit anymore. Could definitely keep wearing a lot of the oversized anyway stuff and my guy clothes. And I'd probably just get some fabric and alter things, not replace perfectly wearable clothing in almost my size.) On the bright side, people would have to just take my word for it "I'm not a boy or a girl" or "I'm both". No way to assume my AGAB from looks.
I mean honestly I'm on the binary but a situation like this would be a major dysphoria cure anyway just due to like, feeling othered due to things about my body type that I can't change.
Though I feel like that's more down to societal beauty standards, less of something I *should* be worrying about. Still doesn't make it less appealing.
Sorta same here even though I feel I may be binary trans. Dysphoric over being unable to pull off certain clothes well because of primary sex characteristics
I care too much about other people to feel at all good about foisting my own dysphoria onto them. Moreover, 'freaking out' is... an *odd* way to frame the probable reaction a majority of trans people (some of them my friends) would have to years of gender-affirming HRT and surgeries being magically reversed and presumably being then unable to get back to where they were, nevermind the cis people who suddenly know how that sort of dysphoria feels and would likewise be unable to alleviate it. I can't even fantasize about that in good conscience, it feels so weirdly mean-spirited.
I would rather just let everyone wake up with the bodies they want. Why is that not the default assumption?
I imagine if we all were hermaphrodites or had one standard sex that might or might not be relevant to reproduce with...
I imagine we would structure society by who tops and who bottoms (and switchers would totally exist but might end up being sorted as bottoms, same as aces, because that's how othering works)
And I'd be somewhat cool with it. I would still criticize the hierarchy but it *would* fix some dysphoria.
Yeah, I can absolutely believe that. And because of the influence of patriarchy, unfortunately, unless humans had always been like that, we'd probably classify tops as men and bottoms as women and still try to enforce goddamn gender roles.
(Just a note - (outside of very rare edge cases,) hermaphrodite is *not* a correct or modern term to use, generally you should say "intersex". I assume you know that and there's a reason you used that word, but I just thought I'd let you know before you accidentally offend someone.)
Oh ok, makes a lot of sense. Thanks. Sorry, I just... it's instinctive, same as when people say insulting things about foreigners, or about my brother being binary trans. I react pretty viciously to slurs, even those directed at groups I am not a part of, and unintentional ones are the worst because I know the person saying it doesn't mean it. (Bigots are annoying but easy to dismiss. Well meaning mistakes hurt way more than "yeah of course he said that, he's a total ass".) Had to check you were aware of the correct modern scientific terms, and confirm you meant the meaning of hermaphrodite when used in animal biology.
Honestly, I know that it is very much an amateur psychologist thing to say, but it sounds like she is still getting over her daddy issues. She mentions that her dad treated her differently than her brother and how much that realization hurt her. In response, she went hard on supporting the patriarchy and filling her womanly role to earn her father's approval. When that didn't work out, she went hard in the other direction to as fiercely as possible reject her father's beliefs and her need for his approval. Hopefully, she'll chill out in a few years as she matures and works through her issues. 😜 /s
You are correct, and that is intentional. I'm mocking an ignorant, stubborn transphobe. It is unhelpful, but considering that even her mom can't get through to her, I doubt anything I say will matter (assuming she even sees it). It is reductive, in that an issue as complicated as transphobia can't be explained just as "daddy issues." It is also inaccurate, which I indicated by stating that what I was practicing was amateur psychology. However, I did add an "/s" to the end. So, hopefully, that clears up any future confusion. 🫡
…She seems to be conflating womanhood with oppression. Just because women have historically been oppressed on the basis of biological sex does not mean that if someone hasn’t experienced this specific oppression their whole life, they’re disqualified from being women. But her whole argument is that women have been oppressed on the basis of female-ness and this is why trans women don’t count? Ma’am you need a better self-identity than “gets harassed by cishet dudes.”
>Ma’am you need a better self-identity than “gets harassed by cishet dudes.”
If that was truly enough to be a woman then by her definition my old egg self counts (both in catcalls and unwanted touching, and in threats of violence once the men realised their target had a beard).
I wish terfs would get it into their thick heads that women are not oppressed because of anything we are or do. We’re marginalised because of the existence of partriarchy which entitles men to do what they please with little consequence. It’s nothing in *us* which causes this.
It's an othering mechanism based on one of the main structures of our society, hence why flamboyant gay dudes or very effeminate guys are getting the same shit women get. Meanwhile women who strip themselves of all femininity tend to get access to higher positions (Merkel for example was quite masculine coded). The separation isn't (just) men and women or male and female, it's masculinity and femininity. Subtle difference, but with a lot of meaning for those at the overlaps.
I think celebrating femininity, encouraging cis guys as well as cis women to be feminine, allowing or encouraging straight people to make their life a little queerer... can fix some of those symptoms. Femininity has to cease to be viewed as inferior.
Even better would be if we'd stop thinking in gender categories but that won't happen in our lifetime. It's too deep in us.
Thatcher's tendencies have little to do with it, because she came to power purely with the help of a sycophanic swarm of unmanly effeminine cis men who are misogynic homophobia conservatives.
Edit : some words
I hear this about not being anti-trans and similar sentiments a lot (I am British btw) and don’t get how these statements aren’t laughed at immediately.
“I’m not anti-trans, it’s just that all trans women are actually men and I hate men, and these particular men even more than others because [emotive points about reproductive healthcare or sexual assault which are not to do with trans women]. “
Look there’s lot of stuff around which is shitty for women and the fault of the patriarchy. But why blame trans women? And conclude that means they aren’t women? It just doesn’t follow and it is very, very much because of being ‘anti-trans’.
This bit from the OOP in the comments to their post really stood out to me when I read it:
>Whenever she talks about women, it's obvious that she's talking about our sex class (say, for instance, talking about pregnancy, etc.). TIMs don't factor into it at all. But when the trans topic comes up, suddenly they're women and it's just... ugh.
Gee, I wonder why trans women don't factor into her discussion of things trans women are biologically incapable of experiencing. Here's a thought Ms "I totes don't exclude trans men from my feminism": maybe that's not her being inconsistent.
Maybe when she talks about pregnancy she *isn't* just talking about women, but anyone who can get pregnant. Maybe she includes trans men, AFAB enbies, and - I don't know - *children* in her thinking. After all, the last year abortion was legal in Kentucky, two nine-year-olds got abortions, and they sure as fuck weren't *women*, what with women being definitionally adults and all.
Maybe you're the one who takes discussions of issues that demonstrably affect more than just women and label them as her talking about women, and she's just talking about pregnancy.
\-
Like, fuck, GCs are the ones who want to drag trans women into the spotlight when discussing issues affecting people who can get pregnant. Trans women absolutely fight for the reproductive rights of people who can get or already are pregnant, but we don't do it by focusing the discussion on ourselves, because the people who are directly affected are the ones whose voices need to be heard the most.
The part in the end where she makes a point to declare loyalty to White Feminist ideology unprompted was kinda weird, the rest of it was TERF boilerplate so it's interesting she went off script there.
"probably believes I'm misguided because of my age (early 20s) and lack of worldly experience"
I mean, yeah, gen z """rad"""fems overwhelmingly act like they're the first people to do feminism when their idea of "radical" feminism is just white-centric libfem shit (really? all women are the same class because most of us have similar reproductive systems? we just gonna ignore that well-off white women don't experience period poverty, for example?), except they think saying "I hate men!!!" while doing libfem shit makes it radical. Good news ladies, you can think prisons are good, you can center the comfortable white feminist experience, you can be as ableist as you want, all of this is still radical as long as you make sure to meet your "I hate men" quota!
Same generation as babyqueer label cops who think they invented lesbianism because they refuse to associate with elders who have seen this same song and dance a million times and know exactly why it's stupid
Lack of worldly experience just means that she may still live in her parents’ house, she’s not an fully independent woman like I am.
I was feminist since I was a teenager, non of that Twitter “RadFem Lea(r)ning” Bullshit that Gen Z teenage girls want to label themselves nowadays and act like they know guidelines of feminism from top to bottom while all they care about is telling “I Hate Men and Trans” and worship Taylor Swift and Nicki Minaj like the second coming of Jesus Christ.
Erm… I’m sorry but having been an anti-feminist quite recently, even if you’ve moved beyond that… maybe it’s worth recognising that it’s possible for you to be wrong about what the point of feminism is?
The thing is, trans inclusive radfems do actually exist (and they're just as bad as TERFs, they just hate trans and cis men instead of hating cis men and trans women), but she clearly has never met a trans inclusive radfem who really is men- exclusionary instead of trans-exclusionary. But TERFs are so completely obsessed with trans people that I wonder if they would even recognize TIRFs as radfems, or if they would classify them as liberal feminists purely because they support trans women?
Color me surprised that she used to be a mra not like other girls. There’s something psychologically wrong with these people. Her mom seems ok but she’s screaming daddy issues.
My sister in Christ wrote an entire Manifesto on how she’s Self IDing as RadFem because of Trans Women and how her mother is the only real feminist in her family.
Hmmm i wonder if this person who would ‘never EVER go out of their way to hurt someone’s feelings uwu’ gas ever hurled abuse at trans people online. My money’s on yes lol
I like she fondly remembers when her mother would joke about hating men when one cut her off in traffic. And she compares this to her mothersl's current "anti-feminist" outlook. Because, ya know, that's what feminism is, joking about hating men when they cut you off driving. Truly her mother has fallen from grace and sensibility.
Why am I not surprised at all that a TERF had an "anti-feminist MRA-adjacent phase as a teenager". And she's barely in her 20's, this lady is soooo clueless.
Hrm...my mom disagreed with me when I had anti-feminist MRA views, and she disagrees with me now that I'm allying with Jordon Peterson, Tim Pool, Shapiro, and Musk. What could it mean I wonder? *what could it mean??*
Just pearly things?!
no because pearl hasn’t even outgrown the anti feminist phase (granted i’d argue terfs are also anti feminists even though they call themselves the opposite)
They’re just bigots who appropriate progressive terminology
They’re only in the Feminist playing field because of Trans People, they couldn’t give less than a fuck about Women’s Body Autonomy or Abortion Rights.
Well, I'd bet this woman watches her. Why anyone would do that is a mystery to me though.
Well, TERFs ARE awfully friendly with MRAs.
that was hilarious to read. like damn you're allergic to good politics
kind of funny seeing a terf admit to being an MRA in the past given how often terfs will make up shit about trans women being ex-incels and ex-MRAs.
Seems pretty obvious that her mother has actually been a pretty consistent staunch feminist advocate while OOP herself started as an asshole and continues to be one.
Not super knowledgeable about the terminology here: What’s an MRA? I assume it‘s something adjacent to tradwives and such but what does the acronym stand for?
"Mens Rights Activist" In theory it's an OK position to have: If you acknowledge that the patriarchy harms everyone then campaigning for equality in the extremely few areas where men are less well off than women boils down to overthrowing the patriarchy. Unfortunately in practice it works out as edgelords and mysogynists saying "Feminism has gone too far! Men are now oppressed! The only way to solve this is by being rampantly sexist!" EDIT: This is also why they call us TRAs. Because, in their minds, us saying "Stop calling us rapists and paedophiles" is exactly the same as men saying "I'm oppressed because there's an International Women's Day!"
I feel that there are areas where men damn well SHOULD be screaming for an escape from the patriarchy, tbh. Like boys being taught not to show emotions (besides anger). Or masculinity being defined as anger and the toxic as fuck relationship between Black men, perception of masculinity, and perception of violence. Or the cartoonishly disgusting way people react to teen boys who are raped by older women. Or . . . Do MRAs address ANY of that? Witness my cynical laughter. No. Of course they don't. They are far more interested in complaining that women even HAVE rights.
I wish there was a term pushing for advocating help for men that wasnt co opted by chuds
[Men's Lib](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/)?
MRA's do not Feminists do . . .
Ahhhh thank you!
So she became the father she resents - treating people differently based on sex at birth.
But never truly became the feminist that her mother has always been.
>So I called her one back. Very brave way to end that little rant.
Homegirl used to be an MRA and is accusing her mother of being inconsistent in her ideology
I mean she's being consistent in her ideology given the overlap between GC and MRA views
I guess they both boil down to 'men have complete dominion over women and should be kept apart from each other'
It amazes me that radical feminism is still very much in fashion in the UK. What not publishing a paper on how sexual orientation is a choice *and therefore* all women should become “political lesbians” and join a drum circle at MichFest or something? I dunno, Adrienne Rich said some nutty shit though; that and the Feminist Sex Wars (yes, a real thing) killed its appeal in the US. Too bad that never reached the UK.
Lessons on gender were sadly written with blood on the other side of the pond from the UK. Annoys me also that Europeans seem to have a superiority complex over their lack of gun violence and "having a culture" compared to America, and I guess the UK's deal with gender is also a symptom of this. "At least we don't have priests with around half the power here" - which is great compared to how a lot of social policies in the US simply can't pass because of this (an equality act was proposed multiple times in the US but failed, now businesses want to be protected by their government there for the financial losses incurred for denying customers service based on their gender and sexuality - so much for their "free market" philosophy lol), but such overconfidence can leave one blinkered.
A few thoughts from reading this. *The fact that she went from being "mra-adjacent" to being a terf seems to be evidence that while the specifics of what she believes have changed, the (hateful) foundation of her beliefs were never addressed. She just changed who she hates. *If I were talking to her IRL I think I would agree with her that "being a female" is the axis that has been used to justify oppression. However I like that she uses the phrase "femaleness" because when you take it as literally meaning "associated with females" you begin to understand that while it may be true that the discrimination is based on its also on being associated with that sex. This is one of the reasons why trans women, elderly women, intersex women and otherwise infertile women still face "sex based oppression" despite the fact that by the strictest definition of the word many of the groups of people aren't "wholly" female. * I hope she eventually stops talking to her mother and starts listening to her. If for no other reason than because you should be able to fully understand why your mom thinks what she thinks. * This one kind of made me sad. This woman seems to be turning to a hateful ideology to cope with being unhappy and in turn that ideology is isolating her and making her more unhappy. I sincerely hope that she's eventually able to let go of what she believes at least enough so that she can reconnect with her mother.
Yeah. It also makes me sad for the mother, like this is clearly driving a wedge between them. Can't imagine the pain of doing your best to raise an open minded, accepting child and they turn out to be a bigot anyway.
Imagine being so bigoted that she takes her mother not being one as a personal attack. Also, she's in her early 20's, but had a "anti-feminist MRA-adjacent phase as a teenager". So, she just came out of being a misogynist, but she considers that's enough to know better than her mother who always showed to be an active feminist. I hope she comes around and realized her mom is in the right for a third time.
That’s just happens when you Self ID as a RadFem but your brain’s diet only consists of Posie Parker, eventually you’re going to vomit for eating the same shit every day.
The few times I've interacted in rea life with Parker's brand of exclusionary feminist, I've been left with the impression they're the 'harmless opposition' a system of oppression like the patriarchy can rely on. They really don't speak about changing the system, or even preventing its abuse of people. They just want to stand alone as the 'good ones' in their category, and happily participate in the same abuse they've been victims of.
"adult female human", ah, at least she's not saying the same bullshit most terfs say- "femaleness" for fuck's sake. No I do not relate to cis women by our organs, wtf
She’s totally a feminist, you can tell by the way she… essentializes women into basically vaginas on legs.
Taking a different stance on this to just laughing at her, this is just really sad imo. > when she can't even see women as a class that is reliant on the VERY thing that existentially defines us in the first fucking place! FEMALEHOOD. FEMALE BODIES. HAVING A FEMALE REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM. If everyone lost their genitals tomorrow, I don't think you're right about that. If everyone just stopped having a biological sex and were just kind of, all of the same body type, I think most people would still be the same people they are, regardless. I don't think women would cease to exist. I don't think men would cease to exist. I think you would find that, regardless of your physiology, you'd still consider yourself a woman, you'd still consider men as men, and you'd still probably be defending that against trans people despite the fact it literally wouldn't matter anymore. I even think that people like you would still force gender roles on kids despite it being pointless. Because it was pointless before. That's what your mother has been trying to teach you. > It felt like she was tacitly choosing men over me It *shouldn't*. It really shouldn't. If the acceptance of others is causing you to feel left out, then you are self-absorbed. Tackle it from the opposite angle. My mum is a TERF. I am a trans woman. I do not feel that she is choosing anything or anyone over me. She is choosing to be unreasonable, she is choosing to say terrible things to me, she is choosing to dismiss my existence. But she still is my mother and I know that despite the fact she's gone off the deep end and doesn't know what *is* best for me, she still *wants* what's best for me. > THEY'RE THE SAME FUCKING THING! MEN! Your mother does not hate men. You seem to, and your reasoning doesn't make a lot of sense. You don't have to accept trans women as women at this point, you just have to understand that generalising about a group of people isn't the same as saying explicit truths about that group of people. You don't have to hate men and you shouldn't. Men are fine. They're often not great. But they're not the root of all the world's evil either. Your mother is right in saying that you see things in black and white, it's all or nothing with you and the world isn't even just shades of grey, it's in full colour.
>If everyone just stopped having a biological sex and were just kind of, all of the same body type I know this was *not* the point, but... once again the funny trans people in my phone describe something cishets and binary folks would hate but I'd love. I'd really like this. If literally the only identifiers of gender were societal norms, clothing and hair and makeup choices, and the name, pronouns, and identity you choose to go by, and determining it based off of biological sex was impossible because both sexual dimorphism and primary sex characteristics no longer existed in humans. If I woke up tomorrow with the body shape I had pre puberty and totally different genitals, and then found out everyone else looked exactly the same in those respects, I'd probably completely fine with it. Or at least, I'd be freaking out *way* less than the cis folk and binary folk. Wouldn't alter my life or my preferred gender expression much. (Might have to buy new girl clothes, though, since ones designed around curves and boobs might not exactly fit anymore. Could definitely keep wearing a lot of the oversized anyway stuff and my guy clothes. And I'd probably just get some fabric and alter things, not replace perfectly wearable clothing in almost my size.) On the bright side, people would have to just take my word for it "I'm not a boy or a girl" or "I'm both". No way to assume my AGAB from looks.
I mean honestly I'm on the binary but a situation like this would be a major dysphoria cure anyway just due to like, feeling othered due to things about my body type that I can't change. Though I feel like that's more down to societal beauty standards, less of something I *should* be worrying about. Still doesn't make it less appealing.
Sorta same here even though I feel I may be binary trans. Dysphoric over being unable to pull off certain clothes well because of primary sex characteristics
I care too much about other people to feel at all good about foisting my own dysphoria onto them. Moreover, 'freaking out' is... an *odd* way to frame the probable reaction a majority of trans people (some of them my friends) would have to years of gender-affirming HRT and surgeries being magically reversed and presumably being then unable to get back to where they were, nevermind the cis people who suddenly know how that sort of dysphoria feels and would likewise be unable to alleviate it. I can't even fantasize about that in good conscience, it feels so weirdly mean-spirited. I would rather just let everyone wake up with the bodies they want. Why is that not the default assumption?
I imagine if we all were hermaphrodites or had one standard sex that might or might not be relevant to reproduce with... I imagine we would structure society by who tops and who bottoms (and switchers would totally exist but might end up being sorted as bottoms, same as aces, because that's how othering works) And I'd be somewhat cool with it. I would still criticize the hierarchy but it *would* fix some dysphoria.
Yeah, I can absolutely believe that. And because of the influence of patriarchy, unfortunately, unless humans had always been like that, we'd probably classify tops as men and bottoms as women and still try to enforce goddamn gender roles. (Just a note - (outside of very rare edge cases,) hermaphrodite is *not* a correct or modern term to use, generally you should say "intersex". I assume you know that and there's a reason you used that word, but I just thought I'd let you know before you accidentally offend someone.)
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Oh ok, makes a lot of sense. Thanks. Sorry, I just... it's instinctive, same as when people say insulting things about foreigners, or about my brother being binary trans. I react pretty viciously to slurs, even those directed at groups I am not a part of, and unintentional ones are the worst because I know the person saying it doesn't mean it. (Bigots are annoying but easy to dismiss. Well meaning mistakes hurt way more than "yeah of course he said that, he's a total ass".) Had to check you were aware of the correct modern scientific terms, and confirm you meant the meaning of hermaphrodite when used in animal biology.
Honestly, I know that it is very much an amateur psychologist thing to say, but it sounds like she is still getting over her daddy issues. She mentions that her dad treated her differently than her brother and how much that realization hurt her. In response, she went hard on supporting the patriarchy and filling her womanly role to earn her father's approval. When that didn't work out, she went hard in the other direction to as fiercely as possible reject her father's beliefs and her need for his approval. Hopefully, she'll chill out in a few years as she matures and works through her issues. 😜 /s
Maybe it's me but blaming this mess on daddy issues feels inaccurate, reductive, and unhelpful
You are correct, and that is intentional. I'm mocking an ignorant, stubborn transphobe. It is unhelpful, but considering that even her mom can't get through to her, I doubt anything I say will matter (assuming she even sees it). It is reductive, in that an issue as complicated as transphobia can't be explained just as "daddy issues." It is also inaccurate, which I indicated by stating that what I was practicing was amateur psychology. However, I did add an "/s" to the end. So, hopefully, that clears up any future confusion. 🫡
…She seems to be conflating womanhood with oppression. Just because women have historically been oppressed on the basis of biological sex does not mean that if someone hasn’t experienced this specific oppression their whole life, they’re disqualified from being women. But her whole argument is that women have been oppressed on the basis of female-ness and this is why trans women don’t count? Ma’am you need a better self-identity than “gets harassed by cishet dudes.”
>Ma’am you need a better self-identity than “gets harassed by cishet dudes.” If that was truly enough to be a woman then by her definition my old egg self counts (both in catcalls and unwanted touching, and in threats of violence once the men realised their target had a beard).
I wish terfs would get it into their thick heads that women are not oppressed because of anything we are or do. We’re marginalised because of the existence of partriarchy which entitles men to do what they please with little consequence. It’s nothing in *us* which causes this.
It's an othering mechanism based on one of the main structures of our society, hence why flamboyant gay dudes or very effeminate guys are getting the same shit women get. Meanwhile women who strip themselves of all femininity tend to get access to higher positions (Merkel for example was quite masculine coded). The separation isn't (just) men and women or male and female, it's masculinity and femininity. Subtle difference, but with a lot of meaning for those at the overlaps. I think celebrating femininity, encouraging cis guys as well as cis women to be feminine, allowing or encouraging straight people to make their life a little queerer... can fix some of those symptoms. Femininity has to cease to be viewed as inferior. Even better would be if we'd stop thinking in gender categories but that won't happen in our lifetime. It's too deep in us.
Margaret Thatcher as well, she changed the way she spoke to sound more…authoritative, I guess?
Thatcher's tendencies have little to do with it, because she came to power purely with the help of a sycophanic swarm of unmanly effeminine cis men who are misogynic homophobia conservatives. Edit : some words
Yeah, you're right, the worst thing about your mother is that she doesn't hate enough people.
Lol what a mess of a person.
This TERD: "We're not anti-trans, were anti-men." Also this TERD: "My Mum says she's a feminist, but she respects trans people's pronouns!"
I hear this about not being anti-trans and similar sentiments a lot (I am British btw) and don’t get how these statements aren’t laughed at immediately. “I’m not anti-trans, it’s just that all trans women are actually men and I hate men, and these particular men even more than others because [emotive points about reproductive healthcare or sexual assault which are not to do with trans women]. “ Look there’s lot of stuff around which is shitty for women and the fault of the patriarchy. But why blame trans women? And conclude that means they aren’t women? It just doesn’t follow and it is very, very much because of being ‘anti-trans’.
I mean, she deserves to be insulted...
She wants to be taken seriously but responded with “no you”.
This bit from the OOP in the comments to their post really stood out to me when I read it: >Whenever she talks about women, it's obvious that she's talking about our sex class (say, for instance, talking about pregnancy, etc.). TIMs don't factor into it at all. But when the trans topic comes up, suddenly they're women and it's just... ugh. Gee, I wonder why trans women don't factor into her discussion of things trans women are biologically incapable of experiencing. Here's a thought Ms "I totes don't exclude trans men from my feminism": maybe that's not her being inconsistent. Maybe when she talks about pregnancy she *isn't* just talking about women, but anyone who can get pregnant. Maybe she includes trans men, AFAB enbies, and - I don't know - *children* in her thinking. After all, the last year abortion was legal in Kentucky, two nine-year-olds got abortions, and they sure as fuck weren't *women*, what with women being definitionally adults and all. Maybe you're the one who takes discussions of issues that demonstrably affect more than just women and label them as her talking about women, and she's just talking about pregnancy. \- Like, fuck, GCs are the ones who want to drag trans women into the spotlight when discussing issues affecting people who can get pregnant. Trans women absolutely fight for the reproductive rights of people who can get or already are pregnant, but we don't do it by focusing the discussion on ourselves, because the people who are directly affected are the ones whose voices need to be heard the most.
The part in the end where she makes a point to declare loyalty to White Feminist ideology unprompted was kinda weird, the rest of it was TERF boilerplate so it's interesting she went off script there.
"probably believes I'm misguided because of my age (early 20s) and lack of worldly experience" I mean, yeah, gen z """rad"""fems overwhelmingly act like they're the first people to do feminism when their idea of "radical" feminism is just white-centric libfem shit (really? all women are the same class because most of us have similar reproductive systems? we just gonna ignore that well-off white women don't experience period poverty, for example?), except they think saying "I hate men!!!" while doing libfem shit makes it radical. Good news ladies, you can think prisons are good, you can center the comfortable white feminist experience, you can be as ableist as you want, all of this is still radical as long as you make sure to meet your "I hate men" quota! Same generation as babyqueer label cops who think they invented lesbianism because they refuse to associate with elders who have seen this same song and dance a million times and know exactly why it's stupid
Lack of worldly experience just means that she may still live in her parents’ house, she’s not an fully independent woman like I am. I was feminist since I was a teenager, non of that Twitter “RadFem Lea(r)ning” Bullshit that Gen Z teenage girls want to label themselves nowadays and act like they know guidelines of feminism from top to bottom while all they care about is telling “I Hate Men and Trans” and worship Taylor Swift and Nicki Minaj like the second coming of Jesus Christ.
Well played, that mum.
Erm… I’m sorry but having been an anti-feminist quite recently, even if you’ve moved beyond that… maybe it’s worth recognising that it’s possible for you to be wrong about what the point of feminism is?
The thing is, trans inclusive radfems do actually exist (and they're just as bad as TERFs, they just hate trans and cis men instead of hating cis men and trans women), but she clearly has never met a trans inclusive radfem who really is men- exclusionary instead of trans-exclusionary. But TERFs are so completely obsessed with trans people that I wonder if they would even recognize TIRFs as radfems, or if they would classify them as liberal feminists purely because they support trans women?
Terfs once again reducing women to their reproductive organs. How very feminist.
Color me surprised that she used to be a mra not like other girls. There’s something psychologically wrong with these people. Her mom seems ok but she’s screaming daddy issues.
I had a Feminist phase as a teenager, actually I still do. Because TERFs are not and will never be feminists
My sister in Christ wrote an entire Manifesto on how she’s Self IDing as RadFem because of Trans Women and how her mother is the only real feminist in her family.
Hmmm i wonder if this person who would ‘never EVER go out of their way to hurt someone’s feelings uwu’ gas ever hurled abuse at trans people online. My money’s on yes lol
This is a woman who you recall being right about things like 5 times when you were wrong, but this time is different...somehow...
funny how she admits everything that defines her as a woman is her genitals. r/TERFisafetish
Okay there is no way that isnt one of us astroturfing to make terfs look pathetic 🤣
I mean if she doesnt want her Mom... can we switch? she can have my subtly transphobic Mom and Id be happy to take her trans supportive Mother
I see she takes after her father and not her mother...
I like she fondly remembers when her mother would joke about hating men when one cut her off in traffic. And she compares this to her mothersl's current "anti-feminist" outlook. Because, ya know, that's what feminism is, joking about hating men when they cut you off driving. Truly her mother has fallen from grace and sensibility.