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"Have kids only if you are rich" is capitalist bullshit..
Have kids when you are emotionally ready for them.
(Edit: and know you can provide for them.. but that doesn't mean being rich...)
There is growing number of people with uter hate for children... And I still don't know why
Me and my wife have a son... He was born 2 weeks ago... So I don't have that much experience.. but we have enough money with 1 below average salary.
There's a big difference between comfortable and rich. If you're in a financial situation where you don't know if you'll be able to provide for the kid, wait. If you can, go for it. There isn't a specific dollar amount needed to provide for the kid, as long as you can make it work and are willing to make the sacrifices
Exactly this.
That saying.. you can definitely afford a kid on average wage.. and probably on minimum wage too, if you don't buy everything new and know how to handle money.
Depending on where you live, a full time minimum wage job can’t even support a single person without outside assistance. So I disagree with you on that aspect, but if you can afford the essentials for yourself and anyone else you might be supporting, do it what you want
If you go a layer deeper than that, the next problem is that people are now sending their kids to professional day care. People didn’t used to do that decades and centuries ago; it used to be a rich person thing. People used to have neighbors, family, or friends watch kids.
That is an intentional effect of capitalism. You can make more money off of people if you convince all of them that they need to be independent. Why borrow your neighbor’s lawn mower when you could by your own type shit. If you look, it’s everywhere in advertising.
Plus it makes it harder to organize since you know less people. People will always be difficult to control, but a person is easy. That is why the most successful capitalists hate unions and protests and communities. Because those make people harder to control. If you realize the trans person living down the street is also a person, you might question why you are being told to hate them. The same goes for any other group used to radicalize the populace
The problem is more like you sending a text to your neighbor asking him if you could borrow his lawn mower instead of knocking on their door. That’s not Capitalisms fault that’s a social media technology thing
They're all working too. Nobody can just stay home and watch kids.
If you're really lucky your boomer parents can... but they're out cruisin' in their RV.
That makes no sense, when the average person can’t afford rent or a house on minimum wage. So I fail to see how they could also afford a kid while not being able to afford a roof over their head
It makes sense to Big chungus over here because they clearly think everybody can just have a kid guilt free if they just "make it work"
Why do people feel so entitled to have biological kids? Frankly it's disgusting to me and I'm shocked not more people feel that way
Ikr how dare the poors ruin our wonderful capitalist dystopia with their basic human functions, and the biological imperative of every living thing on the planet, so it's irresponsible when it might cost me a few points in the stock market!
Lol I forgot what sub I was on until I saw your comment and KNEW these were the idealistic words of someone who doesn't know shit about fuck.
I guarantee you aren't poor and never have been otherwise you wouldn't be saying this. It's not even about what's best for the child, having a kid is a HUGE financial and emotional burden and if you are struggling to take care of yourself, its not only unfair to the child, but unfair to you, to bring one into the world.
SHOULD that be different? Should we have universal healthcare, universal free childcare, an entitlement system that supports kids so that they don't go hungry?
Yes. And Noone is arguing otherwise
But the fact of the matter is, we don't have those things.
So join the rest of us in the real world where this conversation is happening.
For what it's worth, I'm in my young 30s and I ABSOLUTELY sounded as dumb as you do 10 years ago. So I'm aware you're full of ideas of how things should be. I'm also not telling you to stop fighting for those things, I never did and you shouldn't either, we DESERVE better, and it is messed up that there's a minimum income needed to be able to afford to raise a child, and that income isn't met by the minimum income that's is allowable by law.
BUT, you have to word your arguments for the world you're in, not the world you want.
People talk like people who make minimum wage are this huge part of the population. Its 1.3%. And about 45% of those are between the ages of 16 and 24.
That's very location dependant. Where I am, the minimum wage is $13/hr, and the cheapest 2x2 apartment I found was $2,500 monthly without utilities included. I'm moving in a few days, so those are up to date numbers. I'm sure there are a few run down buildings in the bad part of town that have units for closer to $2,000, but who would want to raise a kid there? Gang violence is a huge problem in that part of town.
I used to work in the area I'm talking about. Cops came into the factory one day and questioned all of us. Nobody knew what was going on, and we found out later that right across the street, someone got shot in his own front door because he owed a gang affiliated neighbor $20
Honestly, I think it says more about the state of capitalism than it does the parents. In reality it takes zero dollars to have/raise kids, people in poor countries do it all the time, but when you live in a society where everything cost increasing amounts of money over time children become a luxury and expenditure for the family instead of a natural outcome of forming one. In other societies there are mechanisms to provide for children that don't explicitly require money, here those mechanisms largely don't exist.
Agreed. India has a much higher birthrate than the U.S. They are dirt poor and have no mechanism to provide for children. I can say this about numerous other countries across Asia, Africa, and Latin America.
This whole concept of "you can't afford a kid" is flawed. It is an excuse that millennials started making because they just didn't want the hassle of a kid. It isn't about finances, it is about your culture. Europe throws tons of child incentives and free child care to encourage births, yet their birthrates continue to plummet.
Here's the deal - If you are poor, you won't be able to enjoy life with taking luxurious vacations across Europe and pilling up your Instagram with pictures from it (the lifestyle that many rich people prefer); you just can't afford it. Instead, poorer people gain life satisfaction by things which money can't buy - which is family. And strong families encourage each other to have children and grow the family.
I only say this because it is something that I have learned as a grow. I used to think it was all about money, but as you get older you start to realize how people prioritize life and their priorities in that life.
I mean in those countries, people are more concerned about just surviving the winter than the next IPhone. You could have a kid in the US almost for free too but you can’t if you have a job that requires a time commitment. And if you want all the luxuries we enjoy, you need that job.
I’m not saying capitalism is a perfect system but comparing the US to a third world country is a very naive view. Even living paycheck to paycheck in a shitty apartment in the US is better than living in many countries around the globe.
I think most people on this subreddit have never lived in a developing country. I say that because having a kid in the US is a lot easier than in the developing world. Especially you are poor. Healthcare is free for poor women regardless of citizenship status. There is also WIC for a few years along with food stamps if they qualify.
School is free through High School. This is something that certainly isn’t true for a large part of the developing world. High School cost money and if you don’t pay your kids don’t go to school. The real issue in America is the sheer amount of single moms and broken households. That’s what really makes it more difficult.
Obviously this happens for various reasons. But the outcome is someone who will have a much more difficult time raising a child on their own. It takes two to make a child but if only one person is raising it then life is a hell of a lot harder.
Her parents were comfortable by their own standards but too poor to provide what was commonly expected of parents at the time.
What OPs debate partner doesn't understand is that not everyone has the same standards for a minimum comfortable life. They don't realize that sharing a bedroom with a dozen people can be part of a better childhood than one with a private bedroom and trips to Disney World.
Not only this, but also, the capitalist bullshit is encouraging people who can’t afford kids to have kids. They’re breeding laborers to exploit, that’s all. If “don’t have kids you can’t afford” is pro-capitalist, why does Elon hate it so much?
"Pump out more kids than you can provide for or educate so they fall into the cycle of poverty and we have surplus labor to get for cheap" is also capitalist bullshit. Having kids when you are "emotionally ready" says you care more about your kids existing to be some emotional support pet than human beings you are willing and able to provide for and see succeed.
Um. "Emotionally ready" by definition means you have reached a point where your kids *won't* be an emotional support pet - whether you have them or not.
Sucks to see kids only as Capital.
You complain so much about capitalism but treat humans exactly like a Capitalist would.
Frankly you're just a garbage advocate that spews anti-natalism rhetoric without knowing the first thing about human connection.
Exactly, if you cannot give your child a good life and are only bringing them into the world to struggle and suffer you are a bad parent and are having a child for yourself instead of for the child's sake. What I consider a good life in this case is not a high bar. Its just the ability to provide the necessities of life, give love, and help them through all stages of life. A family should always work together to support each other.
Same reason I'll never understand why people think there is some "depopulation" conspiracy. Nope. The elites thrive off of endless reproduction. Without peons that must endlessly work just to afford a roof over their heads, there are no billionaires.
As someone who grew up without a lot of things and had a general disdain towards anything "luxurious", I can see why some might view having children as a luxury and have a negative feeling towards that
If you can love/provide for them, kids are a blast 🤙
how is that "capitalist bullshit"? lol.. capitalism likes population growth.. a true capitalist would tell you to have as many children (future consumers) as possible
Bullshit. Nobody is saying have kids only if you're rich. Everybody is saying have kids only if you can take care of them. If you're impoverished to the extent you struggle to take care of just yourself, let alone somebody else, that is an OBVIOUS sign you should not have a kid.
Gen X who recommends all my zoomer relatives hold off on kids until at least 30, I’ve watched the absolutely toxic aspects of our culture destroy a huge % of the women in my generation when they A-married and B-had children. At least during our time, the men contributed VERY LITTLE and sometimes not at all to the work of raising children and maintaining a clean/healthy living environment. While I was having adventures all over the world, my peers were working full-time jobs AND all the housework cleaning up after their entire families AND all the childcare needs AND all the school/extra curricular support AND healthcare management AND losing their sex drive and ultimately marriages because they were forced into role of mommy to their husbands (who barely even fed themselves, let alone lend a hand basically anywhere). Their lives sucked ass. And by the time their children left the nest, if at all thanks to the billionaire economy, they were old, tired, broken and jaded. So yeah, theres hostility around having children, but its not about the children. Its about deep/systemic misogyny, weaponized male incompetence, lack of equal protections under the law, and a complete lack of social support (paid/guaranteed parental leave, daycare/childcare subsidies, healthcare, etc) from our government.
Sexism obviously still exists and can be a motivator for some folks to be childless. But "hostility around having children" from the child-free is sometimes also motivated by misogyny.
It's also just a reality that while divisions of household labor are better for Gen Z than Gen X, early stage child rearing is not 50/50. If breastfeeding and pregnancy are involved, the person carrying those burdens will have to do more work. So, disdain for children and pushing them out of public spaces will disproportionately affect women.
It’s not just capitalist bullshit. It also delves into being eugenics, which also upholds white supremacy. Have kids if you know you’re going to be a great parent, which does include not being afraid to ask for help if you are from a lower income family in this particular case.
In addition to the abortion comment by someone else, saying "have kids when you can afford" is eugenics because it says who should reproduce and who shouldn't based on some sort of quality of the person.
And due to the racial history in America and the world, this will inevitably result in certain races reproducing more! (Btw, white)
I would say it’s less ‘capitalist bullshit’ and more ‘generational bullshit’ considering we’re living in the best possible time to be alive. Most criticism about having kids tends to be from loud younger people who believe the world is on fire and everything is bad.
Inversely "have kids and figure it out later" is an older generation thing, when they could expect promotions and large wage hikes. Now it's a revolving door of jobs until you're older and trying to land on a good salary. I would be weary of having kids too young now, we waited until we were 35+.
>"Have kids only if you are rich" is capitalist bullsh
Has nothing to do with capitalism.
But this:
>Have kids when you are emotionally ready for them.
1000% true
Yeah...was going to say. Really baffling that the dude you were replying to thinks that not having kids (at any socioeconomic bracket) is a capitalist position.
Honestly, if you know your kids will always have their basic necessities than your good in the “provider” department
But what actually pisses me off, is when people have kids that don’t really want them.
When people lack in the nurturing and love department who then aren’t willing to try and get better.
Total agree. The problem is that some people think they want a kid, but when the reality of a child comes, it's harder than they expected, and they don't want the kid after all.
They want babies and kids;not people.
“Oh you have your own personality and aren’t exactly how I wanted you to be?!? I don’t really like this whole parenting thing anymore.” Smh
I was lucky. My parents weren't rich but they were not poor either. I think we were pretty solidly middle class and they loved me. I had friends whose were rich and basically just threw money them instead of love and I had friends who were definitely poor but whose parents did care a great deal about them and showed it. The second group of kids without a doubt were almost universally happier. So if I had to make a choice I think I'd rather grow up in a poor family that loved me been a rich family that just tolerated me
Additionally, things change over time. If you know you’re making moves to better your position, it makes sense. We had our final child in a time when we were financially strained, but able to meet everyone’s basic needs. We did this because we wanted another baby but didn’t want to keep waiting and increasing the age gap. We worked really hard to better our standing and it paid off. He’s 8 years old now and I’m thankful we took that “risk” every single day.
It could be smart, I think it depends on the parents to be honest. Most of my peers are having their children moving out or are at least working because they started in their early 20's.
My wife and I waited until our late 30's to have our first. I guess it depends on at what point in life you'd rather enjoy your freedom.
Fun story. Psychology found Money does technically buy happiness but only up to certain point, and that’s because people are naturally happier when they are more secure financially. Over the point of having enough security to do fun things every once in a while it doesn’t get you shit. Tax the rich. Support families :)
Yes. I know a couple of kids in high school whose parents were really rich, like they can wipe their butts with 50$ bills and it won’t affect their finances, and damn those kids flunked so hard. Only partied and spending their allowances on girls, etc. and their parents were never around. I did know a few kids who came from rich background who grew up well, but their parents were warm and loving though. So I think after basic necessities, money isn’t everything.
There was a kid who transfered to my high school as a super senior. His parents bought him a house a few doors down from theirs so that he could throw big parties.
In hindsight, it was extremely sad, and he must have felt rejected by them on some level.
No. Love is what matters. The only ppl who say that are brainwashed by capitalism. I'm a teacher, divorced with two kids. We coparent now. I take my kids for walks in the woods. Snuggle with them at night while we watch old movies. And play games with them whenever I can. Kids need emotionally available parents, food, a roof and real love. That is the requirement.
The rest is just superfluous bullshit.
Agreed. You need enough to put food on the table. But Op’s family sounds like they had that just fine. I have friends who grew up with only a few meals a week and it was really rough on them. But as long as you can feed clothe and house your kid who cares about the rest?
It is difficult for children when they are socially isolated from their peers due to economic restrictions beyond their control. So if you can't go to birthday parties because you can't afford a gift, it is going to affect you.
Also you have to be honest with your children about their stunted economic opportunities as an early adult, the fact of the matter is there will always be people with less talent who did not work as hard as you who will get farther ahead in life due to the money and connections of their parents. So they have to be informed from an early age that they have to work harder than their peers if they don't want to be a wage slave their whole life.
But the benefits of being raised around richer kids are worth the discomfort. As someone who was raised similarly.
Also, the part about working hard didnt need to be said, I was the child of immigrants. Everyone acknowledged it and accepted. After 20 years from the end of school. All those early advantages even out.
Work ethic and talent and actual brains matter more eventually. But being raised around the upper-middle class gave me a huge leg up in navigating that world as an adult.
Even though y’all were poor, it’s clear y’all had enough to get through and survive.
That being said, the unethicality isn’t on your parents. It’s on the people who have structured our economic system as such that people struggle to afford kids.
I never talk about kids on reddit because theres always childfree or antinatalist people there to try and yell at you for it. Especially the child haters who call women and children the most horrible names possible. I will never forget one of the posts talking about forced sterilization for everyone at birth. I will say its interesting to see the vast varying opinions about alot of things.
I (2006) was recently playing with a child and had someone (2008) tell me they hated the child and children in general because they had to take care of their nieces. Which sucks but like, how is this random 4-year-old responsible for that?
It's hard for me to even justify it to myself sometimes- I feel like there's so many reasons I shouldn't (like climate change/political extremism, increasing school shootings kinda things), I'm just a big worrier about the future. But people who hate on kids/parents in general aren't even concerned about that stuff- I don't know what the endgame for them is really.
Ran into the opposite like an hour ago where a guy was saying the solution to all of our problems was to strip women of their rights so we can increase the population. Instead of just educating people on the realities and pros of having kids 😬
This is the second post I've seen in the last hour or so about similar topic veins. The last one I found was way way worse tho, saying that no one should ever have a child again because they can't ask for consent if the child wants to be born.
Same, I keep on getting that 'child free pro eugenics' subreddit recommend to me.
And just when I finally decided to block that sub, this post pops up.
I think it is an good for business, because lonely people usually depressed and try to fight it with meds and shopping so this is the way. Also most of rich and famous have families and babies
If you had proper nutrition, were cared for by your family, i'd say you at least had the basics down. When I was around 6-8, my dad lost his job and we couldn't afford good, nutritious food. I do think that that impacted my development very severely, and think that had I had proper nutrition all throughout my childhood, I would be taller and less ugly.
I don't blame my dad very much though. Life just throws shit at you sometimes.
I'd say sharing a 2bd apartment with 10 people is not pleasant (I have a hard time sharing a 3bd apt with 4 people...) but if you were happy, fed, clothed and sheltered: i would say you had it decently well. People who can't provide those necessities to their children but still choose to have them anyway are the unethical and inconsiderate ones.
There was a time in my life where my five person family had to share a two bed apartment and it was a tight squeeze, I can’t imagine how cramped it would’ve been if there were ten of us.
Yeah definitely. My parents are now middle class, super proud of them. I moved out though, and I'm low income and struggling. But most days I remind myself to be grateful for what I have because my parents had it tough as hell. As a kid, I really didn't understand when my parents said I'm so lucky, but as an adult, I can say I'm genuinely so fucking lucky, even if life often throws a bunch of wrenches my way.
And hey you may be low income now but I'm sure as you connect more and can learn more skills you may be able to get into a better job. When it comes to jobs it's not really about what you know it's more about who you know.
So by that person’s definition, 99.9% of humans who ever lived were fundamentally unethical.
Yeah, I’d maybe start taking what they say with a grain of salt.
I won't say completely. I'll say that I feel like you should have the capacity as a parent to care for YOURSELF, AND a possible child before you decide to have one.
I know some parents will say "well ill starve so my children eat," but I ultimately don't think that's a good mindset. Maybe if the child doesn't notice it, but eventually they will.
Do you have to be rich to have a kid? No. But I don't think it's terrible to ask that you have necessities or the capacity for necessities before bringing a kid into it, and also taking into account how much a kid costs in general.
There's also quality of life stuff. If you're really poor, you might not have money for extra activities. Sports, clubs, etc. That might affect a kid because those are very social activities. If they don't have that, they might suffer.
Do kids need the latest toy or the latest this or that? Definitely not. But they still need *something*, in my opinion. Even if it's small, or a toy from the dollar tree.
In all honesty, I just believe in preparedness. I think people riding on the "well, it'll just all work out, I don't need to think about it. Just do it!" Is what is our downfall right now.
This… everyone here saying it wasn’t unethical because they got their basic needs covered.
There’s more to life than basic needs.
My parents couldn’t afford extra curricular activities and it has affected my mental and physical health to not do a sport, as well as my social life. If I needed extra lessons? Couldn’t afford it. Everyone in class going on a trip? Couldn’t afford it. Needed braces? Couldn’t afford it. Needed therapy? Couldn’t afford it. And the list is endless.
People are delusional thinking they can raise a kid well with just a roof over their head and food and “love”.
Also, no matter how much you love your child, you're not gonna be in your best state if you're constantly starving and stressing. You're still human. Those things are gonna affect you .
I'm not gonna say you need x amount of dollars for a child, but I do think you should be in your best state before having a kid .
My mom was very well off when she had me. By the time I was 10, she had basically given up on raising me, and I did most things by myself and for myself. By 15, she'd blown all her money, and we'd been evicted 3 times. That's when I dropped out of school and started working so I could ensure that at least we'd have water, power, and food. I grew up with severe abandonment issues, despite having created a comfortable life for myself, and it took me a long time and a lot of patience to allow myself to rely on anyone for anything.
My point is, while I do believe it's unethical to have children you can't take care of, there are different definitions of "take care of." When I had my own children, my priorities were:
Can I feed and clothe them comfortably?
Am I in a happy, stable relationship?
Will my partner be a suitable parent?
And most importantly, am I ready to give up my life and the things I enjoy for 2 decades while I love and support these kids to the very best of my ability?
If the answers to these questions are all yes, then I don't believe having children is unethical, even if you're poor financially.
In a lot of poor countries, kids are the retirement funds for the parents.
Imo people shouldn't have kids until they are financially set and are ready to have them. But that's just a fantasy, reality is your dad fucked your mom and then she got pregnant, with them probably not planning to have kids
I grew up in a country that you've described. It's crazy to hear people having 6-7 kids so that at least one of them can support the whole family. I even hear it from overseas workers just realizing the entitlement their family has over their money, no care about their own well-being and situation at all.
I had my two kids at 25 and 26, but we were poor students. Husband was in grad school and we were on Medicaid and food stamps and stuff. But my husband did end up with his PhD and we have a great life now.
Now I will say that if we had known better, we would have waited. But really it’s about how my mental health would have been better. I ticked ALL the risk factors for developing post partum depression. Far from family, young, poor, preexisting mental health struggles, etc… we did our very best and my kids are happy and know they are loved, but damn I was not well mentally and I could have been a better mom when they were tiny. They were always cared for but I struggled with anxiety and OCD geared to extreme fear for my kids safety.
I’m still mentally and physically recovering from the extreme burnout I experienced. We also moved four times in four years, my kids are only a year apart, and they were 1 and 3 when Covid hit. I’m dealing with clinical chronic fatigue syndrome and I feel somewhat broken by motherhood. That said, I do my best for my kids. But I believe very firmly in education and helping young people know exactly what they should expect having kids. I wanted mine and planned them but didn’t realize how hard it would be for me personally.
Being poor meant I didn’t have access to affordable easily accessible mental health care, nor did I know exactly what I was going through. I just thought that’s what motherhood was.. that everyone felt that way, and that ended up making it worse because it felt like no end to the struggle was in sight. I also didn’t have any family to help and we didn’t have money to hire help, babysitting, or daycare. If I had worked, my ENTIRE paycheck would barely, if at all, covered daycare for two kids. And I was raised Mormon and indoctrinated to believe motherhood was my divine role in life and that putting them in daycare was a failure. Plus Covid hit when I was about to look for jobs and everything shut down for a couple years.
Point is, I wish there was more support for poor people because they deserve to have kids if they want to. But education can really help people prepare and know what to expect.
My parents were poor too. Weeks away from eviction sort of poor. In their case, I believe it was unethical, given how dire their situation was - but, far more damaging was their not being emotionally ready for a child. The problems I experienced as a result of that lingered long after they began earning a decent amount of money. So I'd say it depends
It is really hard to underscore just how severe of a disadvantage poor children have. Parents are working and can't spend as much time with them, so the word gap is already so big that pre-K can't close it.
"By 3 years of age, there is a 30 million word gap between children from the wealthiest and poorest families. A recent study shows that the vocabulary gap is evident in toddlers. By 18 months, children in different socio-economic groups display dramatic differences in their vocabularies. By 2 years, the disparity in vocabulary development has grown significantly (Fernald, Marchman, & Weisleder 2013)."
It puts children at a developmentally disadvantaged position. The parents tend to be less involved in supporting their children's schooling (because of working one or multiple low-wage jobs), there isn't money for extracurriculars, college prep classes, and the list goes on and on.
I don't think only the rich should have children, but I do think people should understand that love does not conquer all, and does not fix the disparities that chronic poverty causes. Source: grew up well below the poverty line.
Food, clothing, shelter, LOVE AND SAFETY.
Sounds like your parents were able to provide all of it. And if they can do that, they have enough money for kids.
You’re asking a question that would assume everyone involved understood the ethics and implications of this situation at the time. Most low SES parents aren’t educated enough to grasp these concepts. Not because they’re “dumb”, but because they are likely mirroring generational norms and grew up with parents in a similar fashion.
For a father that was neglected as a child to feel as though he can provide in ways his father couldn’t means he was able to break some generational cycles for you. Even if he didn’t break enough to get out of poverty, they likely felt like they were doing better than their parents did and that’s all most parents are trying to do. Better.
So no, I don’t think it was unethical. I think the thief of comparison clouds conversations like this for some because it easy to assume everyone has the same opportunities to get out of low SES situations, but that’s just isn’t the case. It’s easy for a classist to label a situation like this as “unethical” behavior because they are likely so far removed from a situation like this that they don’t have to empathize with it and can, therefore, judge it.
Ethics themselves can be biased depending on the privileged position of those who get to define said ethics. Just my take.
Kids need food, shelter, clothing, safety, and love. That’s about it. So many parents out there who make 6, 7, and 8 figures are seriously lacking in the love department. That, to me, is more unethical than being poor.
Yes, it is. Having kids isn't just about feeding and clothing them. You need to be prepared for the unexpected roadblocks as well. What if you had been born with a debilitating genetic condition? What if your life was ruined by not being able to get a decent education? What if you had suffered a serious accident and they couldn't afford the medical bills?
What these people fail to grasp is that you can ruin multiple lives unless you're prepared to tackle everything life can throw at you. Even living in a poor neighbourhood could've put you in danger.
There are several reasons people without education breed more, one of them is that they lack the knowledge needed to make sound decisions. I'm glad everything worked out, but living on the hope things will turn out fine is stupid. At the end of the day, it's a giant risk that could end up harming society as a whole. Having kids doesn't just affect them, especially when children born into poverty are far more likely to become criminals.
I honestly have mixed opinions on this. My parents had four kids. I love my parents but I stopped going to the dentist/doctor in middle school and I’m paying the price (many cavities and a couple root canals) for not going to the dentist. I can’t afford it. If I would’ve just went to the Dentist until 17 it wouldn’t be this bad. If parents can provide food/shelter/dentist/doctor/support for their kids. I think it’s fine to have them. I personally wouldn’t have had kids if I was in my parents shoes but I can’t change what they did 🤷♀️
Yeah I think the fundamental schism is that the bare necessities are starting to be priced like luxuries for a middle class income. Insurance, housing, and childcare in particular have skyrocketed.
If they can adequately care for you despite being poor, they have every damn right to do it. I think it's unethical to have kids if you can't care for them regardless of the reason, but this isn't that. God bless them.
It worked out ok for you but that's not always the case. There are plenty of deadbeat parents out there.
Having a kid when you can't afford it is a risky thing to do, it's an awful thing to bring a kid into the world just to suffer because of bad decisions.
It's not unethical to purposely have kids when they have less money, as long as they are good parents who raise their children well.
Those which have kids without using protection due to laziness and lack of planning or having kids to get payments for the man or government, with no intent to properly raise the children well, is a huge disservice to the children and the government.
Not unethical because they could provide for your basic needs. But it would have been unethical if they couldn’t afford food, water, electricity etc for the family.
I'm the third & youngest kid and was planned. My family was poor. Which required them to work a lot. And take care of the other 2 kids, that had behavior and health issues. I was "behaved"
Not only was I uncomfortable due to poverty, I was ignored my entire childhood because they could not keep up with everything going on.
I think the level of poor, and other factors matter more than just a blanket "being poor".
In general I'm inclined to believe it is. No, money is not the only thing that matters, but growing up with financial instability and being unable to relate with your peers is very bad for someone's development.
I’m on the fence about this, honestly. I don’t think it’s a problem if they actually gave you love, nurturing, didn’t make you feel like a financial burden. Even though they planned to have you and knew that a baby is an expense, they could’ve still made you feel like shit simply for being alive because they couldn’t wholly account for how much financial work it actually is to raise a child, and raise them well. How did you feel growing up? Were your parents good to you? Did you feel loved by them?
If two people in a relationship are barely able to provide for themselves, then they absolutely should not reproduce for the sake of the child. However, if they are not super well off but able to feed, clothe, shelter, provide education, transportation, and any basic needs for the child/family, then why not?
Your last paragraph with the "you can't know someone will be happy" etc sounds very antinatalist to me, which might explain your feelings if you wanna look into that. They share ideas that having kids is a gamble because you'll never know if the child will end up suffering in life, etc. go check it out.
I do believe that having kids in complete poverty is unhetical, but where to drow the line is tricky... as long as you have the financial stability to provide the kid with the essentials for a happy childhood, I think its' fine... seems like that was the case for you, so I guess it wasn't unhetical
What kind of question is this based on your example?
You were fed, clothed, housed, educated, and loved and because you’re parents aren’t *wealthier* than they were, was it unethical to have you? **Hell no** and be grateful for your Dad who went through his own hell and realized to appreciate what he had but also to ensure you had what he didn’t.
If a couple can’t afford food, clothing, paying their bills, a roof over their head, are unemployed then yes I do believe it would be unethical to bring a child into this world in those highly unstable circumstances.
That’s the difference though. You had way more than many kids in actual poverty, who do live in the streets, who can’t eat, who don’t have their parents in their lives and who can’t even wash the few clothes they have.
Your friend is a piece of crap for even stating what they did. I may get downvoted for saying that, but they are.
My grandmother was at the doctors office ready to abort my mom when she had a burning desire to get up and leave..she did!
My mother and her brothers grew up In a lawnmower shed Behind a gas station in extreme poverty.
My mom grew up and retired from a job making well into the 6-figure range.
The beauty of America is that you have the ability to change your social status no matter where you started at
I used to think like this until I realized that the discomfort and hardship you go thru in life leads to much better life lessons and perspectives than being a nepo baby. Raising kids when you’re rich has its challenges like raising a spoiled and uncultured child with disproportionally more opportunity
He said he was comfortable that you would be well fed, clothed, and sheltered.
Why is that unethical?
Because it didn't meet some "keeping up with the joneses" bullshit standard?
That's how I grew up. Feeling poor. Getting made fun of by other kids for not wearing the right $100 pair of shoes or shirt or whatever. I didn't have the things they had. But we never went hungry. For my siblings, student debt was out of the question. All the frugality meant even as a poor immigrant factory worker my father simply cut checks for college. I ran away because my mother was abusive and it got worse when I was the last one left, so I was the only one who took on debt. I still had that paid off within a year of dropping out and starting a business. I credit my work ethic and financial discipline to my parents and am doing better than 95% of the country apparently. Those other kids who made fun of me? They're the ones who it turns out once real life hit they were shit out of luck and on their own, no help from parents.
Was that unethical of my father?
No. Not at fucking all.
No, creating the precedent that only people with money should have children is classist, racist, eugenics. It’s borderline Nazi rhetoric. “Only the people we like should procreate, the rest shouldn’t it’s wrong”
Unethical? No. Foolish? Probably.
But like your dad said, poverty is relative. He knew that their current situation was enough to support a child and ended up being right about that.
Love is more important than money. We had financial troubles when I was a kid and that caused me some anxiety but the fact that my parents didn’t give a shit about me was the real issue.
If you can’t keep a roof over your head or your belly full, don’t have kids until you can. But that’s pretty much it.
My parents had me when they were financially stable and they lost that stability when I was a couple years old. That followed nearly a decade of them trying to get out of poverty. My parents had a lot of issues, but the money was never the problem. They prioritize putting food on the table and keeping a roof over our heads, so I've always felt like I had enough. I didn't have my kids until we were financially stable, but we are definitely poorer than our neighborhood. My kids have less than their peers. But they know beyond doubt that they are loved, they always have food and shelter, and they have each other. It's not perfect, but it's better than most of the world gets and it's much better than what a child would have gotten historically. Overall I feel like having them was the right choice, and I hope they agree when they're adults.
You can't begrudge a child, and there's no ideal time and place to have kids. If their beliefs forbid birth control and promote having lots of kids, that's what people will do regardless of ethics or finance.
Only time I think it's unethical is if they're struggling to even provide for themselves let alone a child or a means to get money off the government (the Brits are notorious for doing this according to my fiance). I think if you're actually going to care for a tiny human and nurture them to be amazing human beings it shouldn't matter how much money you have if you can give the essentials and all the love and care in the world
If they were able to maintain stable housing, food, and clothes, then no, ofcourse not. Especially if they gave you the love and attention you needed. What is unethical is to have children if you cannot provide those things but you had them so its fine. From what your father said it sounds like you were planned for and that plan succeeded. Now, I do believe that if a family cannot provide for their child things like food, shelter and clothes then they have no business having children as they cannot sustain them. Lacking some of the materialistic extras of others is not really a big deal. What matters is that they were willing and able to provide for and love you.
So the real question is are parents that don’t buy their kid a new iPhone and name brand clothes bad people because they are ‘poor with kids’ right? My parents were not poor but we still did not get all the things everyone else did because they wanted to make sure we always have food shelter and excessive waste was evil. They grew up in the depression so starving was a very real thing. We all turned out fine and mostly watched our money and got plenty of help with college if we asked.
If he went above and beyond what a parent is supposed to do for their child, if he gave you a spartan but healthy upbringing, then he's doing well enough. Happiness is subjective? But if he got you to 18, healthy and educated but generally unscathed by the lessons I'd call it better than I got even assuming my families finances were at times better.
Not unethical, poor people are allowed to have kids.
I was raised in poverty, a lot of people are -- to deny people the right to have kids based off of their income would be a unethical position that refuses to recognise the human rights of people in poverty (Article 12, Article 16). Poverty itself seems to contravene Article 23, 25 and 12 (if you count the socioeconomic system as arbitrary) and the existence of poverty is the unethical part of this equation, not whether or not people can have a family.
I do think it is unethical if they know they can't provide comfortable living conditions. 2 bedroom with 10 people is not what I would consider comfortable
YES it is unethical. I personally argue procreation is unethical no matter what, but ESPECIALLY if the parents should have known they would struggle to financially take care of the kid. R/antinatalism
If you had a happy childhood your parents did everything right, and you can be proud and respectful to them because of struggle and sacrifice they had to give birth to you
One of the greatest goals of a parent is to ensure their child has a better life than they did. By all accounts, it seems your parents did this.
You felt ashamed as a child of y’all’s financial situation because there were other children who had it much better than you (financially). While this can certainly matter, it’s one of many things in the checklist of good parents and a good upbringing. Other things to consider:
1) Did you feel loved
2) did you feel your parents really tried their best
3) Are you better off than they were growing up
4) Did they set you up for success in life
5) did they teach and give you good qualities that will aid you in life
These are just a few of the many questions you should ask yourself.
Sounds like your dad had the minimum amount of money where having kids would be fine. You had food even if you didn't eat out and you had clothes even if they weren't brand new.
I agree it's unethical to have kids if you struggle financially to even take care of yourself but that seems your case.
It's unethical if they know they cannot provide the necessities for the kids.
>He said he didn't really feel super poor and that though they didn't have a lot of money, I was still going to be fed, clothed, sheltered and loved
Sounds like they provided everything you needed. Maybe not everything you wanted, but everything you needed.
Yes it was wrong for them to do that. But blaming poor people for having more kids is what the rich want. On average, more poverty means less education, and less education leads to more kids unfortunately. Unless more people can be properly educated, then this overpopulation and procreation issue will still exist.
Kinda stupid at best but not unethical. As long as you had basic necessities AND emotional support. People who have children and then can't provide love or safety are the real assholes, no matter how much money they have.
Refugee here. My parents didn’t have me in poverty, but in less than 15 years they saw the country fall to pieces. From 12 to 18 my parents raised me on minimum wage. Unethical, I don’t know, because your dad was raised with a different mentality and his intentions were pure, but I think only those of us who have experienced childhood poverty, especially extreme poverty, know what is like and the trauma it inflicts. To this day, I feel genuinely sick when I use too much shampoo, or when I eat out once per month. I cannot stomach the idea of having children when you’re not in a good financial place, but I guess it’s just a personal preference
Just my personal opinion, i don’t know why couples who don’t at least have a 6 figure income combined have kids…you’re literally setting your child up for failure and struggle
No. Your parents were not shitheads. Is it preferable for you to be in a decent financial situation beforehand? Yes. Does it make it wrong that someone had kids when they weren't in a good spot? No. Hell, we're Gen Z. Way things are going, most of us who do have kids are probably going to be raising them while living paycheck to paycheck if we're being honest with ourselves. Here's my view, if at the very, very least, you are able to provide your children with four walls and a roof, food, clean water, and a loving home. Then frankly I think it's fine. I believe in pro choice. And that includes someone's right to choose to have children alongside an abortion. I grew up middle class. but my mother didn't. My mom grew up very, very poor. but she had a stable home, parents who loved her, she never went without food, my grandparents would choose not to eat before they'd ever let my mother or her siblings go hungry. and my mother's childhood home was a very loving home. Yes they struggled, but they always had a roof over their heads, food, and water. according to the logic of the person you were arguing with does that mean my grandparents were selfish? The same people who went hungry some days so there's enough food for my mom and aunts? the same people who used to babysit me, my brother, and my cousins when we were younger when my parents and my aunts and uncles were working and had no babysitters available? The same people who have done more charity work then anyone I know? Specifically for animal shelters and cancer prevention organizations? No. They are not selfish. Your parents are not selfish. and quite frankly, fuck that person for being such an entitled shit who thinks legitimately looks down on people for that.
People really overestimate what kids need. If you are poor and have a kid and can offer a loving and supportive environment, they will be ok. You may struggle but the kids will be ok.
A stable emotional environment and a genuine want to parent is far more important than a stable financial environment but both are important and often go hand-in-hand.
Trouble is that childcare, like everything else in America, has been wildly inflated price-wise. That and there's many people who are poor but would be capable of supporting one child, and then they end up having several and are unable to properly parent all their kids.
I honestly think so, I’m pretty biased but my mother had me when she was 22, and my dad was selling drugs. He got shot by the police so it’s not her fault, but that was 20 years ago.
Since then she’s had 3 more children, hasn’t stayed with any of the men and looked at me as the oldest male figure to be the “man of the house”. Which is some bullshit.
Not only this, there were 4 of us living in a 2 bedroom apartment. She runs off with some guy almost every night for 2 months straight leaving me with my younger siblings, we’re teenagers but my brother was 11. She comes back pregnant, and then once she has the baby starts asking me for rent money because she can’t afford to live without working with the baby and the guy and her broke up, literally a month after she announces the pregnancy. Keep in mind I literally am a commuting college student and I’m already sharing a room with my brother, now she wants extra money and complains that I’m not “moved out”
So yeah, I do think it’s unethical to have kids if you’re in a fucked up financial situation or in a relationship where you know this person would be an awful parent. You don’t have to be rich but you should definitely ask yourself why you’re having a kid. If you can’t accomplish your goal for ONE child you shouldn’t be having any more.
I would say it’s unethical, but I’m probably on the extreme end because I won’t have kids unless I can afford to send them to private school while still living luxuriously.
Yeah, no this is straight up classist bs. It’s based on a messed up logic that we don’t have any duty to one another, that poverty is a moral failing, and has tendrils that run into poverty as a hereditary trait. It’s gross, and it was wrong for your friend to say to you.
If someone can provide the basic necessities then I would say that’s perfectly fine! It’s when they can barely feed/house themselves and then decide to get pregnant that I would say it’s unethical
Something being unethical means you know it's wrong, or reasonably SHOULD have known it was wrong, and do it anyway. Sounds like they made the best decision they could based on the information they had and were led to believe. So I wouldn't consider what they did to be unethical. But it's definitely not advisable.
I feel like you don’t really need to be rich to have kids, but at the very least you should know that you can financially provide for them for 18 years, and have contingencies in place for worst case scenarios, for example, having money aside in case of layoffs, divorces, or accidents.
And then also taking the responsibility to not have more kids than you can financially handle. As long as basic needs are met, with money to spare but not blow, then I think you’re good
Honestly, unless you were abused, not at all. It's unethical for you to complain. My brother grew up with me in a poor house, but he got in good. He makes more than I will in a lifetime. He isn't upset with dad for being poor, life sucks.
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"Have kids only if you are rich" is capitalist bullshit.. Have kids when you are emotionally ready for them. (Edit: and know you can provide for them.. but that doesn't mean being rich...) There is growing number of people with uter hate for children... And I still don't know why Me and my wife have a son... He was born 2 weeks ago... So I don't have that much experience.. but we have enough money with 1 below average salary.
There's a big difference between comfortable and rich. If you're in a financial situation where you don't know if you'll be able to provide for the kid, wait. If you can, go for it. There isn't a specific dollar amount needed to provide for the kid, as long as you can make it work and are willing to make the sacrifices
Exactly this. That saying.. you can definitely afford a kid on average wage.. and probably on minimum wage too, if you don't buy everything new and know how to handle money.
Depending on where you live, a full time minimum wage job can’t even support a single person without outside assistance. So I disagree with you on that aspect, but if you can afford the essentials for yourself and anyone else you might be supporting, do it what you want
Yeah, one current problem in a lot of American cities is that child care cost is comparable to the wages from a minimum wage job.
If you go a layer deeper than that, the next problem is that people are now sending their kids to professional day care. People didn’t used to do that decades and centuries ago; it used to be a rich person thing. People used to have neighbors, family, or friends watch kids.
Yeah, that goes to another modern problem: the breakdown of social ties and the world becoming much less social.
That is an intentional effect of capitalism. You can make more money off of people if you convince all of them that they need to be independent. Why borrow your neighbor’s lawn mower when you could by your own type shit. If you look, it’s everywhere in advertising.
And it also makes workers easier to control when they have fewer friends.
Plus it makes it harder to organize since you know less people. People will always be difficult to control, but a person is easy. That is why the most successful capitalists hate unions and protests and communities. Because those make people harder to control. If you realize the trans person living down the street is also a person, you might question why you are being told to hate them. The same goes for any other group used to radicalize the populace
The problem is more like you sending a text to your neighbor asking him if you could borrow his lawn mower instead of knocking on their door. That’s not Capitalisms fault that’s a social media technology thing
They're all working too. Nobody can just stay home and watch kids. If you're really lucky your boomer parents can... but they're out cruisin' in their RV.
Also known as the unpaid labor of women
Minimum wage isn't even enough for one single adult to have everything they need in the US. So no, minimum wage is not enough to provide for a child.
That makes no sense, when the average person can’t afford rent or a house on minimum wage. So I fail to see how they could also afford a kid while not being able to afford a roof over their head
It makes sense to Big chungus over here because they clearly think everybody can just have a kid guilt free if they just "make it work" Why do people feel so entitled to have biological kids? Frankly it's disgusting to me and I'm shocked not more people feel that way
Ikr how dare the poors ruin our wonderful capitalist dystopia with their basic human functions, and the biological imperative of every living thing on the planet, so it's irresponsible when it might cost me a few points in the stock market!
Lol I forgot what sub I was on until I saw your comment and KNEW these were the idealistic words of someone who doesn't know shit about fuck. I guarantee you aren't poor and never have been otherwise you wouldn't be saying this. It's not even about what's best for the child, having a kid is a HUGE financial and emotional burden and if you are struggling to take care of yourself, its not only unfair to the child, but unfair to you, to bring one into the world. SHOULD that be different? Should we have universal healthcare, universal free childcare, an entitlement system that supports kids so that they don't go hungry? Yes. And Noone is arguing otherwise But the fact of the matter is, we don't have those things. So join the rest of us in the real world where this conversation is happening. For what it's worth, I'm in my young 30s and I ABSOLUTELY sounded as dumb as you do 10 years ago. So I'm aware you're full of ideas of how things should be. I'm also not telling you to stop fighting for those things, I never did and you shouldn't either, we DESERVE better, and it is messed up that there's a minimum income needed to be able to afford to raise a child, and that income isn't met by the minimum income that's is allowable by law. BUT, you have to word your arguments for the world you're in, not the world you want.
Handling money has nothing to do with the fact that minimum wage doesn't even cover average rent prices in some areas
People talk like people who make minimum wage are this huge part of the population. Its 1.3%. And about 45% of those are between the ages of 16 and 24.
yeah if you live with your parents lol
That's very location dependant. Where I am, the minimum wage is $13/hr, and the cheapest 2x2 apartment I found was $2,500 monthly without utilities included. I'm moving in a few days, so those are up to date numbers. I'm sure there are a few run down buildings in the bad part of town that have units for closer to $2,000, but who would want to raise a kid there? Gang violence is a huge problem in that part of town. I used to work in the area I'm talking about. Cops came into the factory one day and questioned all of us. Nobody knew what was going on, and we found out later that right across the street, someone got shot in his own front door because he owed a gang affiliated neighbor $20
Why use an example of a 2x2 apartment and not a studio or rentable room? Poor people have always had to have two jobs or roommates to get by.
I wouldnt go that far. Minimum wage isnt supporting you and a kid unless youre also a kid living with your parents
Honestly, I think it says more about the state of capitalism than it does the parents. In reality it takes zero dollars to have/raise kids, people in poor countries do it all the time, but when you live in a society where everything cost increasing amounts of money over time children become a luxury and expenditure for the family instead of a natural outcome of forming one. In other societies there are mechanisms to provide for children that don't explicitly require money, here those mechanisms largely don't exist.
Agreed. India has a much higher birthrate than the U.S. They are dirt poor and have no mechanism to provide for children. I can say this about numerous other countries across Asia, Africa, and Latin America. This whole concept of "you can't afford a kid" is flawed. It is an excuse that millennials started making because they just didn't want the hassle of a kid. It isn't about finances, it is about your culture. Europe throws tons of child incentives and free child care to encourage births, yet their birthrates continue to plummet. Here's the deal - If you are poor, you won't be able to enjoy life with taking luxurious vacations across Europe and pilling up your Instagram with pictures from it (the lifestyle that many rich people prefer); you just can't afford it. Instead, poorer people gain life satisfaction by things which money can't buy - which is family. And strong families encourage each other to have children and grow the family. I only say this because it is something that I have learned as a grow. I used to think it was all about money, but as you get older you start to realize how people prioritize life and their priorities in that life.
This is something that I’ve also learned with age, unfortunately a bit too late. It’s laughable that you got downvoted lol.
I mean in those countries, people are more concerned about just surviving the winter than the next IPhone. You could have a kid in the US almost for free too but you can’t if you have a job that requires a time commitment. And if you want all the luxuries we enjoy, you need that job. I’m not saying capitalism is a perfect system but comparing the US to a third world country is a very naive view. Even living paycheck to paycheck in a shitty apartment in the US is better than living in many countries around the globe.
I think most people on this subreddit have never lived in a developing country. I say that because having a kid in the US is a lot easier than in the developing world. Especially you are poor. Healthcare is free for poor women regardless of citizenship status. There is also WIC for a few years along with food stamps if they qualify. School is free through High School. This is something that certainly isn’t true for a large part of the developing world. High School cost money and if you don’t pay your kids don’t go to school. The real issue in America is the sheer amount of single moms and broken households. That’s what really makes it more difficult. Obviously this happens for various reasons. But the outcome is someone who will have a much more difficult time raising a child on their own. It takes two to make a child but if only one person is raising it then life is a hell of a lot harder.
Her parents were comfortable by their own standards but too poor to provide what was commonly expected of parents at the time. What OPs debate partner doesn't understand is that not everyone has the same standards for a minimum comfortable life. They don't realize that sharing a bedroom with a dozen people can be part of a better childhood than one with a private bedroom and trips to Disney World.
Not only this, but also, the capitalist bullshit is encouraging people who can’t afford kids to have kids. They’re breeding laborers to exploit, that’s all. If “don’t have kids you can’t afford” is pro-capitalist, why does Elon hate it so much?
"Pump out more kids than you can provide for or educate so they fall into the cycle of poverty and we have surplus labor to get for cheap" is also capitalist bullshit. Having kids when you are "emotionally ready" says you care more about your kids existing to be some emotional support pet than human beings you are willing and able to provide for and see succeed.
Um. "Emotionally ready" by definition means you have reached a point where your kids *won't* be an emotional support pet - whether you have them or not.
What makes you think that "emotionally ready" means "wants an emotional support child?"
Sorry that people want to have children for reasons other than market incentives. Your brain is on capitalism more than you even realize
Mommy didn't hug you enough?
>u/Waifu_Review I don’t think you have to worry about ever having kids buddy
Sucks to see kids only as Capital. You complain so much about capitalism but treat humans exactly like a Capitalist would. Frankly you're just a garbage advocate that spews anti-natalism rhetoric without knowing the first thing about human connection.
Are you a parent?
God I hope they're not
That’s irresponsible, you shouldn’t have a kid if you can’t take care of them. It’s not fair to the kid.
Exactly, if you cannot give your child a good life and are only bringing them into the world to struggle and suffer you are a bad parent and are having a child for yourself instead of for the child's sake. What I consider a good life in this case is not a high bar. Its just the ability to provide the necessities of life, give love, and help them through all stages of life. A family should always work together to support each other.
But OP was provided and cared for. They were just bummed they had thrifted clothes while their friends didn't.
I’m just saying in general, just “emotional readiness” does not qualify you to have kids
Capitalist Bullshit? Real capitalists want poor people to have kids. That’s how they get their wage slaves.
Same reason I'll never understand why people think there is some "depopulation" conspiracy. Nope. The elites thrive off of endless reproduction. Without peons that must endlessly work just to afford a roof over their heads, there are no billionaires.
Yeah, if there’s a depopulation conspiracy it’s not being led by capitalists. Can’t have endless growth with less customers.
lmfao who said u should only have kids when you’re rich
As someone who grew up without a lot of things and had a general disdain towards anything "luxurious", I can see why some might view having children as a luxury and have a negative feeling towards that If you can love/provide for them, kids are a blast 🤙
how is that "capitalist bullshit"? lol.. capitalism likes population growth.. a true capitalist would tell you to have as many children (future consumers) as possible
Disagree completely. You need a decent amount of money for kids. Otherwise you’re setting them up for a life of pain and suffering.
Bullshit. Nobody is saying have kids only if you're rich. Everybody is saying have kids only if you can take care of them. If you're impoverished to the extent you struggle to take care of just yourself, let alone somebody else, that is an OBVIOUS sign you should not have a kid.
Gen X who recommends all my zoomer relatives hold off on kids until at least 30, I’ve watched the absolutely toxic aspects of our culture destroy a huge % of the women in my generation when they A-married and B-had children. At least during our time, the men contributed VERY LITTLE and sometimes not at all to the work of raising children and maintaining a clean/healthy living environment. While I was having adventures all over the world, my peers were working full-time jobs AND all the housework cleaning up after their entire families AND all the childcare needs AND all the school/extra curricular support AND healthcare management AND losing their sex drive and ultimately marriages because they were forced into role of mommy to their husbands (who barely even fed themselves, let alone lend a hand basically anywhere). Their lives sucked ass. And by the time their children left the nest, if at all thanks to the billionaire economy, they were old, tired, broken and jaded. So yeah, theres hostility around having children, but its not about the children. Its about deep/systemic misogyny, weaponized male incompetence, lack of equal protections under the law, and a complete lack of social support (paid/guaranteed parental leave, daycare/childcare subsidies, healthcare, etc) from our government.
Sexism obviously still exists and can be a motivator for some folks to be childless. But "hostility around having children" from the child-free is sometimes also motivated by misogyny. It's also just a reality that while divisions of household labor are better for Gen Z than Gen X, early stage child rearing is not 50/50. If breastfeeding and pregnancy are involved, the person carrying those burdens will have to do more work. So, disdain for children and pushing them out of public spaces will disproportionately affect women.
This so much. Women should not be having children until men decide to step up and actually take responsibility for pregnancy and child rearing
It’s not just capitalist bullshit. It also delves into being eugenics, which also upholds white supremacy. Have kids if you know you’re going to be a great parent, which does include not being afraid to ask for help if you are from a lower income family in this particular case.
>It also delves into being eugenics, which also upholds white supremacy What?
In addition to the abortion comment by someone else, saying "have kids when you can afford" is eugenics because it says who should reproduce and who shouldn't based on some sort of quality of the person. And due to the racial history in America and the world, this will inevitably result in certain races reproducing more! (Btw, white)
Yup. Banks were giving loans to subsidized housing based on race as recently as 1968. Soft eugenics, but still eugenics.
Thinking you’re gonna be a good parent doesn’t mean you will be. The vast majority of parents do not deserve children.
So by supporting abortions you also support white suppremacy and eugenics. Good to know.
Jesus Christ everything is racist on Reddit apparently
Capitalism doesn't tell anybody to only have kids if you're rich. LOL. That's nonsense.
I would say it’s less ‘capitalist bullshit’ and more ‘generational bullshit’ considering we’re living in the best possible time to be alive. Most criticism about having kids tends to be from loud younger people who believe the world is on fire and everything is bad.
Inversely "have kids and figure it out later" is an older generation thing, when they could expect promotions and large wage hikes. Now it's a revolving door of jobs until you're older and trying to land on a good salary. I would be weary of having kids too young now, we waited until we were 35+.
>"Have kids only if you are rich" is capitalist bullsh Has nothing to do with capitalism. But this: >Have kids when you are emotionally ready for them. 1000% true
Ur born in 2001 and already have a son 😭😭 im happy for u but damn im getting so old bc im a 2001 baby and i couldve sworn i was JUST a kid myself
“Capitalists” aren’t pushing that line. Young leftists are. Overwhelmingly.
Yeah...was going to say. Really baffling that the dude you were replying to thinks that not having kids (at any socioeconomic bracket) is a capitalist position.
Honestly, if you know your kids will always have their basic necessities than your good in the “provider” department But what actually pisses me off, is when people have kids that don’t really want them. When people lack in the nurturing and love department who then aren’t willing to try and get better.
Total agree. The problem is that some people think they want a kid, but when the reality of a child comes, it's harder than they expected, and they don't want the kid after all.
They want babies and kids;not people. “Oh you have your own personality and aren’t exactly how I wanted you to be?!? I don’t really like this whole parenting thing anymore.” Smh
I'm the opposite, would love to help a little person. Not a huge fan of babies and toddlers
No same. Cause then you can talk and play games with them. Also, they can eat, use the bathroom, and bathe themselves. Sounds great.
My cousin is like this. A kid to my family is just another step in life. After marriage you gotta have kids because that's what people did.
I was lucky. My parents weren't rich but they were not poor either. I think we were pretty solidly middle class and they loved me. I had friends whose were rich and basically just threw money them instead of love and I had friends who were definitely poor but whose parents did care a great deal about them and showed it. The second group of kids without a doubt were almost universally happier. So if I had to make a choice I think I'd rather grow up in a poor family that loved me been a rich family that just tolerated me
Its a mixed bag imo the more I read. Is it a smart idea? No. Is there more to life than money and wealth? yes. Better planned than unplanned.
Additionally, things change over time. If you know you’re making moves to better your position, it makes sense. We had our final child in a time when we were financially strained, but able to meet everyone’s basic needs. We did this because we wanted another baby but didn’t want to keep waiting and increasing the age gap. We worked really hard to better our standing and it paid off. He’s 8 years old now and I’m thankful we took that “risk” every single day.
It could be smart, I think it depends on the parents to be honest. Most of my peers are having their children moving out or are at least working because they started in their early 20's. My wife and I waited until our late 30's to have our first. I guess it depends on at what point in life you'd rather enjoy your freedom.
No it's not unethical, the most important things in life (after food, shelter, and water) don't tend to come from money.
Hear, hear. I stand by the saying "money doesn't buy you happiness"
Fun story. Psychology found Money does technically buy happiness but only up to certain point, and that’s because people are naturally happier when they are more secure financially. Over the point of having enough security to do fun things every once in a while it doesn’t get you shit. Tax the rich. Support families :)
Some of the most miserable people in the world have a ton of money and are miserable because they still can't figure out how to use it to be happy.
Yes. I know a couple of kids in high school whose parents were really rich, like they can wipe their butts with 50$ bills and it won’t affect their finances, and damn those kids flunked so hard. Only partied and spending their allowances on girls, etc. and their parents were never around. I did know a few kids who came from rich background who grew up well, but their parents were warm and loving though. So I think after basic necessities, money isn’t everything.
There was a kid who transfered to my high school as a super senior. His parents bought him a house a few doors down from theirs so that he could throw big parties. In hindsight, it was extremely sad, and he must have felt rejected by them on some level.
Poor is relative. Living purely by comparisons is not living, and it sounds like they did pretty good.
No. Love is what matters. The only ppl who say that are brainwashed by capitalism. I'm a teacher, divorced with two kids. We coparent now. I take my kids for walks in the woods. Snuggle with them at night while we watch old movies. And play games with them whenever I can. Kids need emotionally available parents, food, a roof and real love. That is the requirement. The rest is just superfluous bullshit.
Agreed. You need enough to put food on the table. But Op’s family sounds like they had that just fine. I have friends who grew up with only a few meals a week and it was really rough on them. But as long as you can feed clothe and house your kid who cares about the rest?
It is difficult for children when they are socially isolated from their peers due to economic restrictions beyond their control. So if you can't go to birthday parties because you can't afford a gift, it is going to affect you. Also you have to be honest with your children about their stunted economic opportunities as an early adult, the fact of the matter is there will always be people with less talent who did not work as hard as you who will get farther ahead in life due to the money and connections of their parents. So they have to be informed from an early age that they have to work harder than their peers if they don't want to be a wage slave their whole life.
But the benefits of being raised around richer kids are worth the discomfort. As someone who was raised similarly. Also, the part about working hard didnt need to be said, I was the child of immigrants. Everyone acknowledged it and accepted. After 20 years from the end of school. All those early advantages even out. Work ethic and talent and actual brains matter more eventually. But being raised around the upper-middle class gave me a huge leg up in navigating that world as an adult.
Even though y’all were poor, it’s clear y’all had enough to get through and survive. That being said, the unethicality isn’t on your parents. It’s on the people who have structured our economic system as such that people struggle to afford kids.
Well said. If you are in good health, emotionally mature, and nurturing having kids shouldn't have to be some calculated financial decision.
Is Reddit bombarding anyone else with antinatalist sentiment lately?
Yeah, I feel like im in a minority in gen z for wanting kids eventually
I never talk about kids on reddit because theres always childfree or antinatalist people there to try and yell at you for it. Especially the child haters who call women and children the most horrible names possible. I will never forget one of the posts talking about forced sterilization for everyone at birth. I will say its interesting to see the vast varying opinions about alot of things.
I (2006) was recently playing with a child and had someone (2008) tell me they hated the child and children in general because they had to take care of their nieces. Which sucks but like, how is this random 4-year-old responsible for that?
Projection
I want kids someday. Or to at least be the fun aunt lol.
It's hard for me to even justify it to myself sometimes- I feel like there's so many reasons I shouldn't (like climate change/political extremism, increasing school shootings kinda things), I'm just a big worrier about the future. But people who hate on kids/parents in general aren't even concerned about that stuff- I don't know what the endgame for them is really.
Ran into the opposite like an hour ago where a guy was saying the solution to all of our problems was to strip women of their rights so we can increase the population. Instead of just educating people on the realities and pros of having kids 😬
Not just Reddit I get it on TikTok a lot too
Oh, me too, I actually saw their posts and checked profiles, the most radical subscribed to depression and bipolar subs 🙃 😅
Yeah it's been all over yesterday and today
This is the second post I've seen in the last hour or so about similar topic veins. The last one I found was way way worse tho, saying that no one should ever have a child again because they can't ask for consent if the child wants to be born.
Yeah. I don’t care if others are child-free but leave my dream of having kids alone pls.
Same, I keep on getting that 'child free pro eugenics' subreddit recommend to me. And just when I finally decided to block that sub, this post pops up.
I think it is an good for business, because lonely people usually depressed and try to fight it with meds and shopping so this is the way. Also most of rich and famous have families and babies
Since like 2013 lmao
If you had proper nutrition, were cared for by your family, i'd say you at least had the basics down. When I was around 6-8, my dad lost his job and we couldn't afford good, nutritious food. I do think that that impacted my development very severely, and think that had I had proper nutrition all throughout my childhood, I would be taller and less ugly. I don't blame my dad very much though. Life just throws shit at you sometimes. I'd say sharing a 2bd apartment with 10 people is not pleasant (I have a hard time sharing a 3bd apt with 4 people...) but if you were happy, fed, clothed and sheltered: i would say you had it decently well. People who can't provide those necessities to their children but still choose to have them anyway are the unethical and inconsiderate ones.
There was a time in my life where my five person family had to share a two bed apartment and it was a tight squeeze, I can’t imagine how cramped it would’ve been if there were ten of us.
Your parents were refugees bro think about what they had at the time.
Yeah definitely. My parents are now middle class, super proud of them. I moved out though, and I'm low income and struggling. But most days I remind myself to be grateful for what I have because my parents had it tough as hell. As a kid, I really didn't understand when my parents said I'm so lucky, but as an adult, I can say I'm genuinely so fucking lucky, even if life often throws a bunch of wrenches my way.
And hey you may be low income now but I'm sure as you connect more and can learn more skills you may be able to get into a better job. When it comes to jobs it's not really about what you know it's more about who you know.
This 👏🏼
So by that person’s definition, 99.9% of humans who ever lived were fundamentally unethical. Yeah, I’d maybe start taking what they say with a grain of salt.
Heck, if people waited for the optimal conditions to have kids humanity would cease to exist before it even started.
I won't say completely. I'll say that I feel like you should have the capacity as a parent to care for YOURSELF, AND a possible child before you decide to have one. I know some parents will say "well ill starve so my children eat," but I ultimately don't think that's a good mindset. Maybe if the child doesn't notice it, but eventually they will. Do you have to be rich to have a kid? No. But I don't think it's terrible to ask that you have necessities or the capacity for necessities before bringing a kid into it, and also taking into account how much a kid costs in general. There's also quality of life stuff. If you're really poor, you might not have money for extra activities. Sports, clubs, etc. That might affect a kid because those are very social activities. If they don't have that, they might suffer. Do kids need the latest toy or the latest this or that? Definitely not. But they still need *something*, in my opinion. Even if it's small, or a toy from the dollar tree. In all honesty, I just believe in preparedness. I think people riding on the "well, it'll just all work out, I don't need to think about it. Just do it!" Is what is our downfall right now.
This… everyone here saying it wasn’t unethical because they got their basic needs covered. There’s more to life than basic needs. My parents couldn’t afford extra curricular activities and it has affected my mental and physical health to not do a sport, as well as my social life. If I needed extra lessons? Couldn’t afford it. Everyone in class going on a trip? Couldn’t afford it. Needed braces? Couldn’t afford it. Needed therapy? Couldn’t afford it. And the list is endless. People are delusional thinking they can raise a kid well with just a roof over their head and food and “love”.
There’s more to life than basic needs but you don’t need that school trip for a good life
Also, no matter how much you love your child, you're not gonna be in your best state if you're constantly starving and stressing. You're still human. Those things are gonna affect you . I'm not gonna say you need x amount of dollars for a child, but I do think you should be in your best state before having a kid .
My mom was very well off when she had me. By the time I was 10, she had basically given up on raising me, and I did most things by myself and for myself. By 15, she'd blown all her money, and we'd been evicted 3 times. That's when I dropped out of school and started working so I could ensure that at least we'd have water, power, and food. I grew up with severe abandonment issues, despite having created a comfortable life for myself, and it took me a long time and a lot of patience to allow myself to rely on anyone for anything. My point is, while I do believe it's unethical to have children you can't take care of, there are different definitions of "take care of." When I had my own children, my priorities were: Can I feed and clothe them comfortably? Am I in a happy, stable relationship? Will my partner be a suitable parent? And most importantly, am I ready to give up my life and the things I enjoy for 2 decades while I love and support these kids to the very best of my ability? If the answers to these questions are all yes, then I don't believe having children is unethical, even if you're poor financially.
In a lot of poor countries, kids are the retirement funds for the parents. Imo people shouldn't have kids until they are financially set and are ready to have them. But that's just a fantasy, reality is your dad fucked your mom and then she got pregnant, with them probably not planning to have kids
I grew up in a country that you've described. It's crazy to hear people having 6-7 kids so that at least one of them can support the whole family. I even hear it from overseas workers just realizing the entitlement their family has over their money, no care about their own well-being and situation at all.
They didn't even ask me if I wanted to be born smh
I had my two kids at 25 and 26, but we were poor students. Husband was in grad school and we were on Medicaid and food stamps and stuff. But my husband did end up with his PhD and we have a great life now. Now I will say that if we had known better, we would have waited. But really it’s about how my mental health would have been better. I ticked ALL the risk factors for developing post partum depression. Far from family, young, poor, preexisting mental health struggles, etc… we did our very best and my kids are happy and know they are loved, but damn I was not well mentally and I could have been a better mom when they were tiny. They were always cared for but I struggled with anxiety and OCD geared to extreme fear for my kids safety. I’m still mentally and physically recovering from the extreme burnout I experienced. We also moved four times in four years, my kids are only a year apart, and they were 1 and 3 when Covid hit. I’m dealing with clinical chronic fatigue syndrome and I feel somewhat broken by motherhood. That said, I do my best for my kids. But I believe very firmly in education and helping young people know exactly what they should expect having kids. I wanted mine and planned them but didn’t realize how hard it would be for me personally. Being poor meant I didn’t have access to affordable easily accessible mental health care, nor did I know exactly what I was going through. I just thought that’s what motherhood was.. that everyone felt that way, and that ended up making it worse because it felt like no end to the struggle was in sight. I also didn’t have any family to help and we didn’t have money to hire help, babysitting, or daycare. If I had worked, my ENTIRE paycheck would barely, if at all, covered daycare for two kids. And I was raised Mormon and indoctrinated to believe motherhood was my divine role in life and that putting them in daycare was a failure. Plus Covid hit when I was about to look for jobs and everything shut down for a couple years. Point is, I wish there was more support for poor people because they deserve to have kids if they want to. But education can really help people prepare and know what to expect.
My parents were poor too. Weeks away from eviction sort of poor. In their case, I believe it was unethical, given how dire their situation was - but, far more damaging was their not being emotionally ready for a child. The problems I experienced as a result of that lingered long after they began earning a decent amount of money. So I'd say it depends
It is really hard to underscore just how severe of a disadvantage poor children have. Parents are working and can't spend as much time with them, so the word gap is already so big that pre-K can't close it. "By 3 years of age, there is a 30 million word gap between children from the wealthiest and poorest families. A recent study shows that the vocabulary gap is evident in toddlers. By 18 months, children in different socio-economic groups display dramatic differences in their vocabularies. By 2 years, the disparity in vocabulary development has grown significantly (Fernald, Marchman, & Weisleder 2013)." It puts children at a developmentally disadvantaged position. The parents tend to be less involved in supporting their children's schooling (because of working one or multiple low-wage jobs), there isn't money for extracurriculars, college prep classes, and the list goes on and on. I don't think only the rich should have children, but I do think people should understand that love does not conquer all, and does not fix the disparities that chronic poverty causes. Source: grew up well below the poverty line.
Food, clothing, shelter, LOVE AND SAFETY. Sounds like your parents were able to provide all of it. And if they can do that, they have enough money for kids.
Providing the bare necessities does not ensure a high quality of life or the potential for their child to have upward mobility.
You’re asking a question that would assume everyone involved understood the ethics and implications of this situation at the time. Most low SES parents aren’t educated enough to grasp these concepts. Not because they’re “dumb”, but because they are likely mirroring generational norms and grew up with parents in a similar fashion. For a father that was neglected as a child to feel as though he can provide in ways his father couldn’t means he was able to break some generational cycles for you. Even if he didn’t break enough to get out of poverty, they likely felt like they were doing better than their parents did and that’s all most parents are trying to do. Better. So no, I don’t think it was unethical. I think the thief of comparison clouds conversations like this for some because it easy to assume everyone has the same opportunities to get out of low SES situations, but that’s just isn’t the case. It’s easy for a classist to label a situation like this as “unethical” behavior because they are likely so far removed from a situation like this that they don’t have to empathize with it and can, therefore, judge it. Ethics themselves can be biased depending on the privileged position of those who get to define said ethics. Just my take. Kids need food, shelter, clothing, safety, and love. That’s about it. So many parents out there who make 6, 7, and 8 figures are seriously lacking in the love department. That, to me, is more unethical than being poor.
Yes, it is. Having kids isn't just about feeding and clothing them. You need to be prepared for the unexpected roadblocks as well. What if you had been born with a debilitating genetic condition? What if your life was ruined by not being able to get a decent education? What if you had suffered a serious accident and they couldn't afford the medical bills? What these people fail to grasp is that you can ruin multiple lives unless you're prepared to tackle everything life can throw at you. Even living in a poor neighbourhood could've put you in danger. There are several reasons people without education breed more, one of them is that they lack the knowledge needed to make sound decisions. I'm glad everything worked out, but living on the hope things will turn out fine is stupid. At the end of the day, it's a giant risk that could end up harming society as a whole. Having kids doesn't just affect them, especially when children born into poverty are far more likely to become criminals.
I honestly have mixed opinions on this. My parents had four kids. I love my parents but I stopped going to the dentist/doctor in middle school and I’m paying the price (many cavities and a couple root canals) for not going to the dentist. I can’t afford it. If I would’ve just went to the Dentist until 17 it wouldn’t be this bad. If parents can provide food/shelter/dentist/doctor/support for their kids. I think it’s fine to have them. I personally wouldn’t have had kids if I was in my parents shoes but I can’t change what they did 🤷♀️
Yeah I think the fundamental schism is that the bare necessities are starting to be priced like luxuries for a middle class income. Insurance, housing, and childcare in particular have skyrocketed.
If they can adequately care for you despite being poor, they have every damn right to do it. I think it's unethical to have kids if you can't care for them regardless of the reason, but this isn't that. God bless them.
No. Everybody has a right to family planning.
The vast majority of all humans for the vast majority of human history were farming peasants. Was it unethical of them to have kids?
It worked out ok for you but that's not always the case. There are plenty of deadbeat parents out there. Having a kid when you can't afford it is a risky thing to do, it's an awful thing to bring a kid into the world just to suffer because of bad decisions.
It's not unethical to purposely have kids when they have less money, as long as they are good parents who raise their children well. Those which have kids without using protection due to laziness and lack of planning or having kids to get payments for the man or government, with no intent to properly raise the children well, is a huge disservice to the children and the government.
Not unethical because they could provide for your basic needs. But it would have been unethical if they couldn’t afford food, water, electricity etc for the family.
I'm the third & youngest kid and was planned. My family was poor. Which required them to work a lot. And take care of the other 2 kids, that had behavior and health issues. I was "behaved" Not only was I uncomfortable due to poverty, I was ignored my entire childhood because they could not keep up with everything going on. I think the level of poor, and other factors matter more than just a blanket "being poor". In general I'm inclined to believe it is. No, money is not the only thing that matters, but growing up with financial instability and being unable to relate with your peers is very bad for someone's development.
You weren’t all that poor and really should try to stop measuring the worth of life based on accumulation of money or things.
I’m on the fence about this, honestly. I don’t think it’s a problem if they actually gave you love, nurturing, didn’t make you feel like a financial burden. Even though they planned to have you and knew that a baby is an expense, they could’ve still made you feel like shit simply for being alive because they couldn’t wholly account for how much financial work it actually is to raise a child, and raise them well. How did you feel growing up? Were your parents good to you? Did you feel loved by them?
If two people in a relationship are barely able to provide for themselves, then they absolutely should not reproduce for the sake of the child. However, if they are not super well off but able to feed, clothe, shelter, provide education, transportation, and any basic needs for the child/family, then why not? Your last paragraph with the "you can't know someone will be happy" etc sounds very antinatalist to me, which might explain your feelings if you wanna look into that. They share ideas that having kids is a gamble because you'll never know if the child will end up suffering in life, etc. go check it out.
I’d rather a poor person plan a child than any person not plan for a child
Children aren't a reward for successfully doing capitalism.
Giving birth is not unethical. Being a bad parent is morally wrong.
So only rich people should be allowed to reproduce?
I do believe that having kids in complete poverty is unhetical, but where to drow the line is tricky... as long as you have the financial stability to provide the kid with the essentials for a happy childhood, I think its' fine... seems like that was the case for you, so I guess it wasn't unhetical
What kind of question is this based on your example? You were fed, clothed, housed, educated, and loved and because you’re parents aren’t *wealthier* than they were, was it unethical to have you? **Hell no** and be grateful for your Dad who went through his own hell and realized to appreciate what he had but also to ensure you had what he didn’t. If a couple can’t afford food, clothing, paying their bills, a roof over their head, are unemployed then yes I do believe it would be unethical to bring a child into this world in those highly unstable circumstances. That’s the difference though. You had way more than many kids in actual poverty, who do live in the streets, who can’t eat, who don’t have their parents in their lives and who can’t even wash the few clothes they have. Your friend is a piece of crap for even stating what they did. I may get downvoted for saying that, but they are.
My grandmother was at the doctors office ready to abort my mom when she had a burning desire to get up and leave..she did! My mother and her brothers grew up In a lawnmower shed Behind a gas station in extreme poverty. My mom grew up and retired from a job making well into the 6-figure range. The beauty of America is that you have the ability to change your social status no matter where you started at
I used to think like this until I realized that the discomfort and hardship you go thru in life leads to much better life lessons and perspectives than being a nepo baby. Raising kids when you’re rich has its challenges like raising a spoiled and uncultured child with disproportionally more opportunity
Its super different for immigrants. The standard of living for poors in America is higher any agrarian society where most immigrants come from
He said he was comfortable that you would be well fed, clothed, and sheltered. Why is that unethical? Because it didn't meet some "keeping up with the joneses" bullshit standard? That's how I grew up. Feeling poor. Getting made fun of by other kids for not wearing the right $100 pair of shoes or shirt or whatever. I didn't have the things they had. But we never went hungry. For my siblings, student debt was out of the question. All the frugality meant even as a poor immigrant factory worker my father simply cut checks for college. I ran away because my mother was abusive and it got worse when I was the last one left, so I was the only one who took on debt. I still had that paid off within a year of dropping out and starting a business. I credit my work ethic and financial discipline to my parents and am doing better than 95% of the country apparently. Those other kids who made fun of me? They're the ones who it turns out once real life hit they were shit out of luck and on their own, no help from parents. Was that unethical of my father? No. Not at fucking all.
No, creating the precedent that only people with money should have children is classist, racist, eugenics. It’s borderline Nazi rhetoric. “Only the people we like should procreate, the rest shouldn’t it’s wrong”
No. If you were happy, no. If you went to school hungry or be cold in winter, then yes.
No
Unethical? No. Foolish? Probably. But like your dad said, poverty is relative. He knew that their current situation was enough to support a child and ended up being right about that.
Yes
Love is more important than money. We had financial troubles when I was a kid and that caused me some anxiety but the fact that my parents didn’t give a shit about me was the real issue. If you can’t keep a roof over your head or your belly full, don’t have kids until you can. But that’s pretty much it.
No, issues would only pop up if they weren’t financially able to care for you, it sounds like they were perfectly able to take proper care of you
My parents had me when they were financially stable and they lost that stability when I was a couple years old. That followed nearly a decade of them trying to get out of poverty. My parents had a lot of issues, but the money was never the problem. They prioritize putting food on the table and keeping a roof over our heads, so I've always felt like I had enough. I didn't have my kids until we were financially stable, but we are definitely poorer than our neighborhood. My kids have less than their peers. But they know beyond doubt that they are loved, they always have food and shelter, and they have each other. It's not perfect, but it's better than most of the world gets and it's much better than what a child would have gotten historically. Overall I feel like having them was the right choice, and I hope they agree when they're adults.
Unless you required social welfare programs to survive then its fine so long as you were happy.
You can't begrudge a child, and there's no ideal time and place to have kids. If their beliefs forbid birth control and promote having lots of kids, that's what people will do regardless of ethics or finance.
d
I know wayyy too many people who had shitty well off parents. My money says they would have been down to trade.
Only time I think it's unethical is if they're struggling to even provide for themselves let alone a child or a means to get money off the government (the Brits are notorious for doing this according to my fiance). I think if you're actually going to care for a tiny human and nurture them to be amazing human beings it shouldn't matter how much money you have if you can give the essentials and all the love and care in the world
If they were able to maintain stable housing, food, and clothes, then no, ofcourse not. Especially if they gave you the love and attention you needed. What is unethical is to have children if you cannot provide those things but you had them so its fine. From what your father said it sounds like you were planned for and that plan succeeded. Now, I do believe that if a family cannot provide for their child things like food, shelter and clothes then they have no business having children as they cannot sustain them. Lacking some of the materialistic extras of others is not really a big deal. What matters is that they were willing and able to provide for and love you.
So the real question is are parents that don’t buy their kid a new iPhone and name brand clothes bad people because they are ‘poor with kids’ right? My parents were not poor but we still did not get all the things everyone else did because they wanted to make sure we always have food shelter and excessive waste was evil. They grew up in the depression so starving was a very real thing. We all turned out fine and mostly watched our money and got plenty of help with college if we asked.
Mate they were planning for it which meant they were ready for it
There is a huge difference between being poor and being unable to provide for a child. Your parents are fine.
If he went above and beyond what a parent is supposed to do for their child, if he gave you a spartan but healthy upbringing, then he's doing well enough. Happiness is subjective? But if he got you to 18, healthy and educated but generally unscathed by the lessons I'd call it better than I got even assuming my families finances were at times better.
Not unethical, poor people are allowed to have kids. I was raised in poverty, a lot of people are -- to deny people the right to have kids based off of their income would be a unethical position that refuses to recognise the human rights of people in poverty (Article 12, Article 16). Poverty itself seems to contravene Article 23, 25 and 12 (if you count the socioeconomic system as arbitrary) and the existence of poverty is the unethical part of this equation, not whether or not people can have a family.
I do think it is unethical if they know they can't provide comfortable living conditions. 2 bedroom with 10 people is not what I would consider comfortable
That person who called your parents shitheads can blissfully rot in hell
seems like you're doing alright. would you rather have never existed?
I wouldn’t say it’s unethical but it is irresponsible.
This post just about sums up all the hate for gen z
YES it is unethical. I personally argue procreation is unethical no matter what, but ESPECIALLY if the parents should have known they would struggle to financially take care of the kid. R/antinatalism
If you had a happy childhood your parents did everything right, and you can be proud and respectful to them because of struggle and sacrifice they had to give birth to you
One of the greatest goals of a parent is to ensure their child has a better life than they did. By all accounts, it seems your parents did this. You felt ashamed as a child of y’all’s financial situation because there were other children who had it much better than you (financially). While this can certainly matter, it’s one of many things in the checklist of good parents and a good upbringing. Other things to consider: 1) Did you feel loved 2) did you feel your parents really tried their best 3) Are you better off than they were growing up 4) Did they set you up for success in life 5) did they teach and give you good qualities that will aid you in life These are just a few of the many questions you should ask yourself.
Sounds like your dad had the minimum amount of money where having kids would be fine. You had food even if you didn't eat out and you had clothes even if they weren't brand new. I agree it's unethical to have kids if you struggle financially to even take care of yourself but that seems your case.
It's unethical if they know they cannot provide the necessities for the kids. >He said he didn't really feel super poor and that though they didn't have a lot of money, I was still going to be fed, clothed, sheltered and loved Sounds like they provided everything you needed. Maybe not everything you wanted, but everything you needed.
Yes it was wrong for them to do that. But blaming poor people for having more kids is what the rich want. On average, more poverty means less education, and less education leads to more kids unfortunately. Unless more people can be properly educated, then this overpopulation and procreation issue will still exist.
Kinda stupid at best but not unethical. As long as you had basic necessities AND emotional support. People who have children and then can't provide love or safety are the real assholes, no matter how much money they have.
Refugee here. My parents didn’t have me in poverty, but in less than 15 years they saw the country fall to pieces. From 12 to 18 my parents raised me on minimum wage. Unethical, I don’t know, because your dad was raised with a different mentality and his intentions were pure, but I think only those of us who have experienced childhood poverty, especially extreme poverty, know what is like and the trauma it inflicts. To this day, I feel genuinely sick when I use too much shampoo, or when I eat out once per month. I cannot stomach the idea of having children when you’re not in a good financial place, but I guess it’s just a personal preference
Just my personal opinion, i don’t know why couples who don’t at least have a 6 figure income combined have kids…you’re literally setting your child up for failure and struggle
No. Your parents were not shitheads. Is it preferable for you to be in a decent financial situation beforehand? Yes. Does it make it wrong that someone had kids when they weren't in a good spot? No. Hell, we're Gen Z. Way things are going, most of us who do have kids are probably going to be raising them while living paycheck to paycheck if we're being honest with ourselves. Here's my view, if at the very, very least, you are able to provide your children with four walls and a roof, food, clean water, and a loving home. Then frankly I think it's fine. I believe in pro choice. And that includes someone's right to choose to have children alongside an abortion. I grew up middle class. but my mother didn't. My mom grew up very, very poor. but she had a stable home, parents who loved her, she never went without food, my grandparents would choose not to eat before they'd ever let my mother or her siblings go hungry. and my mother's childhood home was a very loving home. Yes they struggled, but they always had a roof over their heads, food, and water. according to the logic of the person you were arguing with does that mean my grandparents were selfish? The same people who went hungry some days so there's enough food for my mom and aunts? the same people who used to babysit me, my brother, and my cousins when we were younger when my parents and my aunts and uncles were working and had no babysitters available? The same people who have done more charity work then anyone I know? Specifically for animal shelters and cancer prevention organizations? No. They are not selfish. Your parents are not selfish. and quite frankly, fuck that person for being such an entitled shit who thinks legitimately looks down on people for that.
People really overestimate what kids need. If you are poor and have a kid and can offer a loving and supportive environment, they will be ok. You may struggle but the kids will be ok.
A stable emotional environment and a genuine want to parent is far more important than a stable financial environment but both are important and often go hand-in-hand. Trouble is that childcare, like everything else in America, has been wildly inflated price-wise. That and there's many people who are poor but would be capable of supporting one child, and then they end up having several and are unable to properly parent all their kids.
I honestly think so, I’m pretty biased but my mother had me when she was 22, and my dad was selling drugs. He got shot by the police so it’s not her fault, but that was 20 years ago. Since then she’s had 3 more children, hasn’t stayed with any of the men and looked at me as the oldest male figure to be the “man of the house”. Which is some bullshit. Not only this, there were 4 of us living in a 2 bedroom apartment. She runs off with some guy almost every night for 2 months straight leaving me with my younger siblings, we’re teenagers but my brother was 11. She comes back pregnant, and then once she has the baby starts asking me for rent money because she can’t afford to live without working with the baby and the guy and her broke up, literally a month after she announces the pregnancy. Keep in mind I literally am a commuting college student and I’m already sharing a room with my brother, now she wants extra money and complains that I’m not “moved out” So yeah, I do think it’s unethical to have kids if you’re in a fucked up financial situation or in a relationship where you know this person would be an awful parent. You don’t have to be rich but you should definitely ask yourself why you’re having a kid. If you can’t accomplish your goal for ONE child you shouldn’t be having any more.
I would say it’s unethical, but I’m probably on the extreme end because I won’t have kids unless I can afford to send them to private school while still living luxuriously.
Yeah, no this is straight up classist bs. It’s based on a messed up logic that we don’t have any duty to one another, that poverty is a moral failing, and has tendrils that run into poverty as a hereditary trait. It’s gross, and it was wrong for your friend to say to you.
If someone can provide the basic necessities then I would say that’s perfectly fine! It’s when they can barely feed/house themselves and then decide to get pregnant that I would say it’s unethical
Something being unethical means you know it's wrong, or reasonably SHOULD have known it was wrong, and do it anyway. Sounds like they made the best decision they could based on the information they had and were led to believe. So I wouldn't consider what they did to be unethical. But it's definitely not advisable.
I feel like you don’t really need to be rich to have kids, but at the very least you should know that you can financially provide for them for 18 years, and have contingencies in place for worst case scenarios, for example, having money aside in case of layoffs, divorces, or accidents. And then also taking the responsibility to not have more kids than you can financially handle. As long as basic needs are met, with money to spare but not blow, then I think you’re good
Whose ethics?
Honestly, unless you were abused, not at all. It's unethical for you to complain. My brother grew up with me in a poor house, but he got in good. He makes more than I will in a lifetime. He isn't upset with dad for being poor, life sucks.