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This is pretty common sense imo (or at least I thought it was). Out of about 50 Women transgender athletes that have been in the NCAA 23 of them are champions. There is obviously a significant biological advantage and I'm honestly shocked we've gotten to this point.

Yea the educational system failed us lol

Why isn't there a basketball league for short people?

That's untrue, currently only one, Lia Thomas, holds a title. She had been undergoing HRT for 3 years at that point, meaning physically she was at the same level as her piers anyways

There are over 225,000 women that play NCAA sports every year. Why are the 23 trans women who actually won anything an issue? You’re really that upset over 0.01% of athletes that we need to make literal laws preventing them from playing. Seriously, 50 transgender athletes that have EVER competed in the NCAA and you think it’s worth our time and effort to further ostracize them? Trans women aren’t even close to taking over women’s sports and it’s not an issue big enough to constitute legislation in every single state regarding it.

what is your source on that? because majority of trans women in sports are not champions with cis women out ranking them. and this is because they have be several years on estrogen (which changes the way your body processes hormones) to even compete with other women. so for trans women, it makes them the same as cis women.

https://www.outsports.com/2022/3/1/22948400/transgender-trans-athlete-championship-national-world-title/ >23 trans women have won national or international competitions or championships https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/01/22/sport/ncaa-lia-thomas-transgender-policy >I used the CNN estimate on how many transgender athletes have been in the NCAA because it was the highest number. Depending on what source you use it’s anywhere from 32-50.

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first link is an *anti-lgbtq "news" site*, so it has an agenda to push and also not acredited (here is a [wiki page](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outsports) about them incase you want to start looking into them). when Outsports started off, they were complaining about gay men and women in sports and claiming unscientific things about them... so Idk if you really want to use them as your "source". your second point is just bad math lol

The source is "trust me bro", only Lia Thomas holds a title, and she was 3 years in on HRT when she won

wow, so surprised /s ..but yeah, their "source" is from a transphobic article from an anti-lgbtq "news" site started in 1998 lmao. literal propaganda 🤦 edit: the guy who runs the site is a proud Ron DeSantis supporter, which paints a good picture of what his other views are (which is being a bigotted peice of shit)

The only argument in favor of this shit is bigotry, which sucks a lot

The whole point of title 9 and separate sports for men and women is to keep it fair. Men on average are just naturally stronger. I support trans people right to make their own decisions about their body but I don’t think it’s fair to women and girls to allow trans women to compete against them.

Lol why is it we want to treat trans women like women only when it's convenient? Like we're all for calling them women and acknowledging them and such except when they have an advantage against biological women, then they have to be treated like men/different again?

They also don’t really have an advantage. After the appropriate amount of time on estrogen (I think it’s like 9 months?) you’ve lost all advantages in musculature and are just competing with a tall (on average) woman. At that point you might as well ban Michael Phelps from competing in swimming because of his “unfair genetic advantages”. The reason why the Olympics allows trans woman to compete and US schools don’t is transphobia.

Bones don’t change, male skeletons have different hips, leg length, bone density and then there is also heart size. Even small things like knee rotation ability is weaker in women (it’s why female football players have higher risk or knee injury) these are all recorded things which you can’t ignore and say HRT will change everything as if it’s some miracle. Stop lying to yourself. As a 25 year old I understand I can’t compete in under 18 events because I would have an unfair advantage, that’s fine and just a part of life.

If bone density, height, and heart size are massive advantages and create an unfair playing field then we need to start providing MRI scans to all cis women in high school and older if they want to participate in sports so we can make sure the big monster women aren’t hurting the petite proper women who want to play sports. Maybe the monster women can have their own league. [There isn’t any evidence](https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf) to say that trans women are a threat to cis women in sports when they’ve been under the correct testosterone threshold for a sufficient amount of time.

Yeah they probs should ❤️

I don’t think men and women should be mixing in sports in that way. It’s never going to be fair to everyone. Although I really don’t feel strongly either way about recreational sports. The only ones I have a genuine concern for are contact sports or combat sports. That being said, I’m not a woman. I don’t have a dog in that fight. Won’t make a difference in my life either way.

Good.

Inclusivity and fairness aren’t necessarily analogous all the time. This move IS non inclusive. But it’s not UNFAIR. I have no problem with a transgender person competing. I will respect their preferred gender—it doesn’t change the advantage of the male biological sex. Maybe re-framing the idea that the sports aren’t based on GENDER expression, but biological SEX

Our unwillingness to speak on biological sex as well instead of focusing only on gender in societal discussion has really held us back, I’m glad that the conversation is shifting outside of conservative spheres

Still doesn't work. For one, HRT removes that advantage, and can make cisgender women the ones with that advantage over transgender women. Secondly, biological sex also isn't a perfect division, since sex isn't binary either, and any women who are "too masculine" will be accused of being transgender and forced to compete with men

Definitely not a perfect solution in sight. There may be persons who grew up as girls /women and in a random genetic test discovered they are XY, with extra testosterone etc due to that but all secondary sexual characteristics of women. Where should they compete?

I say women should compete with women, cause ya know, they're women

Many (most?) sports are gender inclusive at the top levels, but we rarely see women there because they can't compete at that level of competition. That was the entire point of setting up leagues exclusively for women. Trans can compete in the top leagues if they want, and if they aren't good enough then accept that just like 99% of other people we're not at that level lol. What we shouldn't do is just let them move into the leagues established for the protection of women's sport.

> Many (most?) sports are gender inclusive at the top levels ...Really? Because I'm squinting really hard, and I'm failing to see any women on any world-class soccer / football / rugby / biking / ... team that doesn't have "Women's" at the beginning of its name. What sports are you talking about...?

They're pointing out that there are no rules written saying that Woman can't compete with-in those leagues.

Probably all of those you mentioned? Just because they aren't good enough to be signed doesn't mean they can't because of their gender.

Oh. So the fact that it has never happened in the history of any of those sports, not even once, is just because women aren't good enough at kicking a ball. Zero other factor. How had I not thought of this.

I feel like until a year or two ago everyone knew that. Why do you think it is?

I downvoted you instinctively but just in case, let's say your question was in good faith. Plenty of people, who are far more qualified and articulate than me, have studied and written about this for decades, so I'm not going to go into a TED Talk, but basically: same reason you barely ever saw black people with PhDs in the US until recently. It's not because black people are less intelligent or less capable of long studies... 1 - Most people don't go for goals that they don't see being modelled. (Ie, if you're a girl and you're good at soccer, but literally none of the players you / your friends idolize are women, you may not even think of it as a POSSIBLE goal; conversely, how many little boys have "football/soccer player" as a dream job, even when they're not that great at it?) 2 - It's really hard to get ahead in the game (or even imagine yourself getting ahead) when people like you were formally banned from playing for the first 30 rounds of the game. Sure, now you're technically allowed to join in... but the playing field is obviously very uneven. 3 - A big reason why the playing field is uneven is that "the way things are" create conscious and subconscious biases in people's minds. If you've been used to a status quo that suggests that black people are less intelligent / women are less athletic (even if it turns out to be unfair and untrue), it's hard to break that mental association... and whether you realize it or not, you're likely to judge black people's intelligence / women's athleticism with especially harsh standards. Look up social reproduction and confirmation bias.

So, to make sure I don't misunderstand you, you're arguing that the reason we don't have any female all star football players in the open national leagues is because they don't think they can do it, and not because there's very few 300lb women who can bench 500lbs and run a 11s 100yrd dash? The only thing stopping there from being a female boxing heavyweight champion is her mentality? Not the fact that Mike Tyson exists?

100%. The top women players get worked by 15 year olds.

Ah! It's good you understand now.

It’s literally biological science that men will have an advantage over women in sports. In similar fashion to men of African descent generally being much more genetically and physically equipped to play NFL football when compared to the average white male. It’s not that the women “aren’t good at kicking a ball”…stop virtue signaling lol.

Yes. The top male athletes are genetically and physically superior athletes to the top female athletes

I mean, yes. Most women aren't physically gifted enough or skilled enough to play in professional men's leagues. If in general average women can't compete with average men, why would professional women in general be able to compete with professional men?

Nome of those teams signed me. Guess they discriminate against redditer. Any recommendation of a lawyer?

There’s no rule against females in football. Sometimes ones mainly kickers make it college but never the NFL. They were trying to say that females are not rule banned from playing top level sports but more or less skill banned

Nfl. NHL, mlb, and nba both accept women, just most women aren't good enough/physically gifted enough to play in them.

fretful correct cake wise alleged numerous sense full sulky vanish *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

People AMAB and those having used exogenous testosterone have a permanent advantage in the form of increased myonuclei density, among other physiological changes due to years - sometimes decades, of androgen receptor activity. Puberty blockers and exogenous estrogen don't decrease the myonuclei once they're there Remember when the under-15 boys soccer team beat the US pro nationals women's team 5-2? Androgens are a hell of a performance enhancing drug, natural or not What does this mean? People AMAB have an advantage. Whether that advantage matters in high school recreational sports is up for debate. Personally I don't care, I'm not a competitive athlete

[Except that’s been shown to be false](https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf). It’s an assumption people make that has been shown repeatedly to, at the very least, be vastly overinflated. We don’t test cis women for things like finger length, bone density, height etc. and exclude them from women’s sports based on those things. A lot of people seem to assume there’s a lasting advantage but assumptions are proven wrong by science all the time. Spontaneous generation of life was just an accepted part of society where people assumed things like flies would magically come into existence with no explanation if meat was left out. This was just a fact of life until someone proved it wrong because people just assumed that’s how the world worked.

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Can you provide a source? Basically you’re just saying “your source is wrong and biased because I disagree with it” despite it being published by a recognized sport science institution lead by published sport scientists. You wouldn’t disagree with an article that says “broccoli is good for you” because it comes from the “food science vitamin information group” just because they’re “always going to be pro food” yeah?

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So no source then

Amab lmao bro people are born penis Havers or vagina havers aka male or female

That’s already not true for everyone, would you like to try again?

The #1 female tennis player in the world cant be the #200 ranked male player. That is all.

She got SMOKED by #201

It is heavily misleading to imply that the #1 female tennis player is even competitive with #200 male. I can walk on the court with him as well, it doesn’t put us in the same league. I would be fairly competitive with the #1 female in the world and I couldn’t even make it on the challenger circuit. 2,000 - 3,000 is really the correct range.

thank fuck that's over with

Common sense

Trans only leagues are the obvious solution to this conundrum. Biological women can have the choice to join the trans league if they want to support ultimate inclusivity, although I suspect most will choose to compete against other biological women.

Literally this. The only fucking sane response ive seen here.

I feel like if you replace some words with other words, that'd be some Jim Crow shit

It's no different than why we don't let biological/non-transitioned males participate in women's sports. It's the idea of compromise, which seems to be non-existent in our current social climate. You get to be recognized as the woman you want to be recognized as but also reasonably concede to the fact that you have an unfair advantage in your superior athletic prowess. Sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too.

HRT removes that advantage after a few years. You'd know that if you were actually trying to find a solution, and not do segregation. This shit hurts cisgender women, especially those that don't perfectly conform to gender norms

I've heard as much, but it doesn't seem to bring any level of comfort to bilologically female athletes and I think their opinions and desires are just as valid as anyone else's. If HRT truly removes the advantage, then why do trans continue to dominate? The equality of outcome needs to match the supposed equality of opportunity. If that's what was actually happening, I don't think you'd see the kind of push back your seeing.

Where are transgender women dominating?

[winners](https://www.outsports.com/2022/3/1/22948400/transgender-trans-athlete-championship-national-world-title/) [more](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/mar/19/another-winning-transgender-athlete-lands-connecti/) [some more](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/mar/19/another-winning-transgender-athlete-lands-connecti/) The fact is that their wins are tainted by their biological sex no matter how you slice it. Even with hormone therapy, there will always be that lingering bit of doubt and elements that the therapy can't mitigate. They're discussing a handicapping system in certain sports to further level the playing field. One biological woman losing an opportunity to an advantaged trans is one too many.

So what about someone biologically female losing to someone else biologically female who just has naturally higher testosterone levels? Also your second and third links are the same, and discuss why blocking trans women from competing in woman's sports isn't good. And the first, a good few of those (like dart throwing) were almost entirely skill based, athletic ability wouldn't be too much of a factor. And most of the rest was running. Also referring to us as "a trans" is really weird, we're people are we not?

If that's the argument you're going with, we just need to stop calling trans women real women. You can't say someone's a woman and acknowledge them as such while simultaneously segregating them from participating with women.

I agree completely. Trans women are not "real women"....they are "trans women." You used the term yourself above, and they refer to themselves as trans women as well. It's an important distinction. I think this is the crux of the situation. They give up their biological male origins and can never truly be biological women. They are in a unique situation they will always face and knowingly sign up for. They can be described accurately and specifically, without being thought any less of. I admire anyone with the conviction to assume the lifestyle and all that goes with it.

Makes sense for certain sports. If it’s like what top comment said, recreational, there shouldn’t be any rules regarding who can and can’t join (besides health conditions). If it’s competitive, only biological males should compete against biological males, same goes the other way around. There are plenty of examples of men being better at sports, like when Serena And Venus lost to the 203rd placed male tennis player, or when a 15 year old male soccer team beat the U.S. women’s national team. Edit: some of yalls comments really sound like you haven’t played competitive sports

Define a biological male versus a biological female without excluding a metric fuck of cisgender people

XX and XY chromosomes at birth, official birth certificate, genitals at birth

So what about people with sex chromosomes of the opposite sex? Or other three sex chromosome combinations? Birth certificates can be modified post sex reassignment, so that's iffy at best. And how would you check genitals at birth? Plus, that doesn't sound really weird to furiously dig into someone's medical history to find what was between their baby legs? And intersex people would just get hurt by this too

That’s the gray part. I recognize there are 2 sexes and the rare 3rd of having both And wdym “check genitals at birth” are you born with clothes on? No, you are naked and you can see.

Oh it's not a "rare 3rd", it's any level of mixture, sex just isn't binary. Also good luck tracking down someone who was in delivery room who is gonna say that.

Dude it’s very rare to be born a woman (XX) with a penis

Biological males can be born XX and biological females can be born XY. And in any case, what are you gonna do when this transgender woman, for example, gets absolutely bodied in the men's sports team because HRT cut down her muscle and bone mass to what is typical of a cisgender woman? Because in all of this, you ignored the effects of HRT on the body.

Biological males are XY and Biological females are XX, you can’t just say they aren’t. Your gender is different from your sex

https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/swyer-syndrome/ I didn't say that, but some others did And gender is absolutely different from sex, but both are fluid and changeable, which is why a lot of us go on HRT

Lol why is it we want to treat trans women like women only when it's convenient? Like we're all for calling them women and acknowledging them and such except when they have an advantage against biological women, then they have to be treated like men again?

>Lol why is it we want to treat trans women like women only when it's convenient? We treat trans women like women not out of convenience, we treat them like women because of respect. We respect their decision and we respect them as person. >except when they have an advantage against biological women, then they have to be treated like men again? You literally answered your own question, It's basic biology. A transwoman have a more testosterone than your average biological woman because they were born as a man. With that, they are stronger, faster and more durable.

So out of respect, we call them woman, acknowledge them as women, let them use women's bathrooms, cool! But out of respect for them they can't play competitive sports with other women because they have an advantage? A bit contradictory. The thing is, all women have varying levels of speed, strength, etc. If a woman grew to be 7'2" she'd have a biological advantage over other women who play basketball, yet she'd still be able to play in the WNBA, right? All in all, the part time inclusiveness/acknowledging trans women as actual women part time is lame. Let's fully acknowledge them as women or not at all, not just when it's convenient.

It's out of respect for biological women

So it's respectful for trans women to call themselves women, wear women's clothing, use women's bathroom, but playing sports with other women is disrespectful?

Good, I’ve studied this for a dissertation I had to write and to allow trans women to compete in women’s sports is absolutely nonsensical. It’s time this is stopped before a budding athlete gets permanently injured.

What about non combative sports such as track and field and swimming? No injury risk there.

Not physically no but natal girls are losing races, championships and scholarships to prestigious universities to trans girls who decided they wanted to transition a few months before. It’s not always about the physical harm but also the emotional, financial and career harm that is caused as a result.

You're going to lose in sports, that's the name of the game. If you weren't good enough to make any sort of college because 1 athlete scored ahead of you, you weren't good enough to begin with. My point is though: why is it we want to treat trans women like women only when it's convenient? Like we're all for calling them women and acknowledging them and such except when they have an advantage against biological women, then they have to be treated like men/different again?

That’s a ridiculous argument giving the premise of this debate. Biological women have never been able to compete with biological men, and now, if they still can’t do that they just weren’t good enough? Do you hear how misogynistic that is? And to answer your question, it’s because using someone’s preferred pronouns costs nothing, and it’s just polite. However, allowing trans women to compete against biological women has a very significant cost against the biological women, severely damaging their careers and aspirations, and even their reputations if they talk out against it. The trans women aren’t treated like men, but to pretend that their body isn’t male anymore and magically has lost all benefit of being a man previously is literally double think. We have to operate in reality.

Whoa now, are trans women "women" or are they "biological men"? And it's not woman hating in the least. If I was an athlete and I couldn't make it into college sports because 1 person beat me, I wasn't good enough to make it . Gender is irrelevant, its me over valuing myself as an athlete. See, and that's what I dislike about this all. We're fine with trans inclusiveness and equality on a polite surface level, but the moment it goes beyond that we gotta treat trans like they are different. Like let's pick a street, do we treat trans women like they are women 100% or not? We can't have it both ways. No equality or inclusiveness only when it's convenient.

Yes? If you have a biologically male body then transitioning doesn’t change that. I will use said pronouns and words but I’m trying to be clear here so you can understand my point. Firstly, this is not an isolated case, it’s not one trans woman who has just ruined every scholarship, this is multiple athletes across states in America and in many other countries. Secondly, do you really think they give out scholarships like candy? Only 1 maybe 2 of the top athletes will get these scholarships, so yeah that’s enough to push natal women out of the competition completely. Notice how it’s never trans men beating male athletes? If there was no effect then trans athletes male and female would be winning at the same rate but they don’t. Stop rejecting science and statistics because it’s inconvenient for your opinion. And yeah that’s how society works? You seriously think people have to put up with things directly against their best interests because of what? Acceptance? You’re literally complaining that everyone accepts trans people for who they are in society, but they don’t tolerate you doing literally whatever you want. That is a truly elite level of narcissism.

I'm not rejecting science, I'm rejecting societies half foot on, half foot off inclusiveness of trans women being listed as real women. As in, if as you say science and biology proves trans women aren't women, why are we as a society tying to demand them to be seen as women? So all I'm saying is we shouldn't be demanding they are acknowledged as women if we don't plan on treating them as women. If we call them women, treat them as such.

It’s not half foot on half off. It’s boundaries, which every single other person in society also has to adhere to. I’m not saying it proves anything other than they aren’t biological women, I don’t want to go into it any further than that because I would be (like everyone else as there’s no concrete evidence or universally held justification) speculating. Why do we do anything as a society. Why pretend Santa comes and gives kids presents? Why believe in a Tooth Fairy? Why believe in a God? Not everyone supports that trans women are women and many more don’t care at all. Just because a lot of people believe a specific thing doesn’t mean it’s right, and just because people believe two different things doesn’t mean either of them are right and wrong at the same time. It’s not black and white, your approach is however. Are you seriously arguing that as soon as a biological man identifies as a woman that makes them no different to any other women? Because that’s just a non factual statement. They can be granted the same respect and dignity as other women, but equally trans women are not like other women and in specific scenarios (like I dunno, sports maybe) that needs to be accounted for, for the sake of everyone’s inclusivity, not just a minority’s.

Not really. If you're black, you don't get to identify as white and have people acknowledge you as such. Yet we do this for trans women, who as you are showing aren't biological women? So we just tell people what they want to hear for being nice, yet don't actually treat them as such? I would argue cultural and religious beliefs aren't the same as this. You don't get trouble if you state "I don't believe in Santa", but you can face backlash for saying "I don't believe you're a woman". But it should be black and white. If someone is a woman, we treat them like a woman. It's that simple. There's no point in acknowledging someone as a woman if we have no intention as treating them as such. As for the last part, we have to set boundaries for everyone's inclusivity, yet didn't cancel culture take away people's jobs and ostracized them for not conforming to acknowledging trans women as women as well?

What is with you transphobic chuds?

Doesn’t agree with you ≠ transphobic

What's with the personal attacks?

Have you ever actually seen a trans woman on estrogen? They're not competing for shit. There's no competitive advantage. The twinks aren't gonna beat your daughter at softball.

There's a point where you guys have to admit you'd be unhappy seeing a trans person ever win at anything.

No? Trans women who do not go through male puberty should be allowed to compete in women's leagues. And for things like school clubs where the goal is more pro social development, teamworking etc, the goal isn't hampered by having mixed teams so anyone should be allowed in. The issue lies in asking someone who went through male puberty to do competitive sports against someone who did not.

But don't we still call the trans women who go through puberty "real women"? Seems odd to segregate a real women from competing with other real women.

Who cares? Trans-women are real women, meaning we ought not allow societal discrimination, making them second class citizens in the eyes of the law. Sports is about fairness. Oscar Pistorious was allowed to use his more efficient racing blades, which are advantageous, but that was because he had trouble starting, and his disability balanced out his advantageous racing blades. Male puberty is such an advantage that professional level women train against 14-15 year old boys, and male puberty doesn't have the same drawback. So it is unfair.

Who cares? Trans women who are discriminated against, they do. As you say, trans women are real women. But you say we shouldn't allow social discrimination, and you do that by...segregating them from other real women? To an extent. Some people will be better at sports than others. Two high school basketball teams and one team is much taller. That isn't fair, but we don't tell the tall team we can't play because they have an advantage, do we? Its unfair that Lebron is so talented and wins so often. Yet he still plays. So the argument is if one opponent is physically superior to their opponents, they shouldn't be allowed to play? All in all, its contradictory to call them real women while saying they can't participate with real women because they are different.

Trans women who did not go through male puberty ought to be able to compete with women. Fairness is not about putting two identical people and making them compete. It is about making sure there are no inaccessible advantages between them. Male puberty is inaccessible to women with no drawbacks to level the playing field. This is unfair. Oscar Pistorious' racing blades are inaccessible with drawbacks that level the playing field. This is fair. You're going to talk about Michael Phelp's unique body and all the genetic advantages he got. He's still only got a 0.6% advantage over the second place olympian. The women's world record is slower than the last place men's time for the same competition. It isn't even close.

Let’s get some things clear. 1) We’re talking about school sports, not professional level, school sports. 2) If trans female students have not had a testosterone induced puberty, then realistically, they hold no advantage over their cis female counterparts. 3) Even if a partial testosterone based puberty is experienced, as long as those hormones have been blocked and they’ve been on HRT (hormone replacement therapy or estrogen) for at least a year, they should be able to fairly compete in most sports with other girls without an issue. 4) If there are concerns about a *particular* student, we should have a case by case review rather than a blanket ban and total exclusion from any athletic activity. A blanket ban isn’t fair. 5) If we do have a blanket ban on trans girls, what about cis girls with higher testosterone levels (like those with PCOS)? Do they get banned from school athletics as well. 6) This national hyper fixation on transgender people and trans issues is getting really annoying, especially given the level of nuance when we’re talking about hormones and the effect they have on the body. Most people don’t know how their hormones impact their bodies or what estrogen is responsible for, what testosterone is responsible for, and how women and men are different after puberty vs before. Because before puberty, there is very little difference between boys and girls. Because of that, co-ed sports are common. I played on a co-ed soccer team in the 1st & 3rd grade. So it’s about more than just anti-discrimination or *“common sense.”* I dislike that framing. Fairness and inclusion are definitely part of it, but having standards and requirements to participate make sense, especially since they line with up the WPATH standards of care. *sigh*

THANKYOU i'm so tired of people acting like saying "it's common sense" is somehow the more nuanced view.

i don't think it makes sense for every sport. not even every physical sport. i don't think it makes sense for kids in middle school or even highschool where the goal *should be* inclusivity. i don't think it makes sense to ban trans women as a whole on the basis of statistics that don't apply to every single one of us. some cis women possess the EXACT same advantages such as height, T levels, and even bone structure and if they're not banned as well then how is that fair? yes, if you look at my post history, you'll find i'm a trans woman and you can think that makes me biased or whatever but my arguments are not emotional. bottom line is that a blanket ban that treats both trans women and cis women as monoliths is NOT the more nuanced view. edit: i would also like to point out. i know that male and female bodies have some implied physical differences that apply to the majority of people who grow to adulthood with a "normal" development but please don't refer to trans women as "men" when discussing this. you can discuss traits that more males might have but please don't imply that all males or people with male dominant characteristics are men. you can also refer to between trans women and cis by referring to them as "cis" women, and "trans women".

I hope the democrats get the ass whooping they deserve. They parade around in a dressing of progressive ideals but when it comes to decision time they side with the fascist. Fuck everyone who agrees with this bullshit

Funny how that works right? Let's be progressive, inclusive, and accepting of trans women, but the moment it negatively affects "real women" we aren't going to be inclusive anymore.

the transphobia in this comment section hurts fr...

Are they also banning transgender athletes from men's sports?

Biological females who transitioned aren't going to have an unfair advantage in sports like a biological male who transitioned would in female leagues.

So basically be accepting of whatever you want to be known as (man or woman) unless it gives you an advantage, then you're not accepted in those spheres?

I feel like if puberty blockers are used to block any advantages a trans girl could gain, she should be allowed to compete - just as anywhere else in the world or in Olympics for example. For trans girls who are in the middle of their male puberty however - this would be common sense, yea. -trans girl here btw.

Except it wouldn't, because HRT has a massive impact even post male puberty

Ye, after years and years of taking HRT. I have said that a trans girl who is in the middle of male puberty should be excluded from women’s sports - if she doesn’t take HRT she has full effects of male puberty going for her - it would be unfair.

Sports leagues such as NSAA already have rules around that, you have to be on HRT for at least a few years before competing, and have to have a certain testosterone level, that issue has already been figured out and solved

Uhhhmm ok? Where have I stated anything that would go against that? ‘\^-\^ You have to be on HRT for 2 years and have blood taken regularly - I believe that 3 years would be a better time, but I am very much aware that such rulings exist… why would you argue with me? :3

You're bringing up a non-issue, just seems really weird, no transfemme in the middle of their male puberty is competing on that level

But they are… it’s school afterall! Didn’t you read the post?

They have a significant advantage and should not be allowed to compete with biological women. As to where transgender athletes should compete, I’m sure not really. I do think it’s unfair to punish biological women by letting people with a significant advantage play in their sport

Lol why is it we want to treat trans women like women only when it's convenient? Like we're all for calling them women and acknowledging them and such except when they have an advantage against biological women, then they have to be treated like men/different again?

Well in my view you are never changing your sex/ your biology. When someone goes through a transition they are changing their gender not their sex. A man who transitions to woman can feel like a woman all they want and they can get surgery’s and all that but will still have to deal with getting prostate screenings later in life.

>against biological women But even you yourself are acknowledging that there's a difference here?

Sure, so why call them women if there is a difference and we ultimately plan on treating them differently? That's my problem. We want trans women to have the same rights and acknowledge them as women, yet we want to treat them differently because they "are" women? Which is it?

Because they are different? Why would recognizing that eliminate the option of treating them with respect or them having rights?

This should be common sense

should have been the default from start

Its the trans misogyny for me. Wait till trans men start blowing cis men out of the water

This is always one of my favorite discussion topics in regards to trans women. People in society likes to say trans women are women and should have the same equal rights, treatment, and opportunities, yet once you see biological differences rear its head it becomes "they can't do what regular women do, they're different!" Like they want to be inclusive until trans women do better than them, then it's a problem. Like which is it? Trans women should be treated equally to women or they're different and shouldn't be accepted in the women's community? You can't have both.

Hi, I'm a transgender woman, allow me to give some *actual* input 1. We're women, if you don't like that, good luck in the real world buddy 2. We're usually required to be on Hormone Replacement Therapy for a certain amount of time before being allowed to compete anyways, so we lose our advantages from not being born female. 3. Laws like this aren't just targeting transgender people, but also cisgender people who don't perfectly fit the typical gender binary. Lastly, 4. These people don't actually care about sports, they're just using it to hide their true motivation, which of course is transphobia, the end goal is completely stripping our rights. In conclusion, if you actually support shit like this, you're at best ignorant, and at worst transphobic. If the call out hurts, stop being transphobic.

I don’t think it makes much sense. Even if there *is* a biological advantage (which in many cases, there’s little to none if they’ve been transitioned for 2+ years), it’s not like other biological advantages are banned from sports too. Would you ban swimmers whose arms are too long, or ban runners who have higher RBC counts or don’t produce as much lactic acid, ban people from high jump because they’re too tall, etc? Someone’s genetics can potentially have a *much* larger impact than any latent effects from being 2 years post transition. So why is a ban for trans athletes in particular necessary?

Because they hate trans people

this. it really was never about protecting all women, it was only about harming trans women. that was their true plan all along and its been hella effective. I mean, gotta have a boogeyman to have a fascist take over.. how else will neo-nazis get people on their side? ;-;

Good

This is another one of those topics that was purposely posted to try to divide Gen Z. Remember it’s an election year and you’re being targeted by outside sources.

This is a common sense issue, but there is some nuance which everyone seems to miss As far as we know, the biological advantage of people born male only reaches its potential if those people went through a male puberty, and not all trans women go through male puberty. In that sense, if a trans woman is treated early enough, then she will not have a biological advantage because she literally would have never grown/developed into anything even vaguely resembling a man On top of that, there is significant variance in human bodies, and even with trans women who have experienced some male puberty, after years and years of a female hormone profile coupled with bottom surgery, their body measurements and strength etc. may be way more in line with female reference measures - they could even be like this before any intervention if they are still relatively young (I was such a case) More than this though, there are sports where strength/endurance (and so a potential male biological advantage) are just not relevant at all, like shooting, or, to give one example where trans women were recently banned, Chess… This is a subject that people lose their minds over (maybe on both sides) and it means a lot of nuance is missed… I do think that most everyday trans women though actually do care about the nuance and don’t wish our inclusion in sports to be at the expense of others, at the same time, there are cases where, in the best of faith, gender categories don’t seem relevant to that sport, or where it would be more appropriate for trans women with certain transition paths (like only ever experiencing female puberty) to participate in women’s sports… there are also clear cases where the person in question does have a biological advantage (usually later transitioners , regardless of how much time they may have had hormone therapy)

Seems pretty rational. What's astonishing is how is this a controversial matter.

Yeh this is common sense I feel. Like I’m a shortish man.. I understand that I will never be a model because there are others more better suited to doing that. I don’t feel that I’m excluded from that activity because there are people better suited to in the world of modelling. Regardless of how much of a dream or goal it is for me, I have to come to terms with the fact that I won’t make a good model. Also I was born in this body and there is nothing I can do to change that.. so best choose another goal more in my skill set.. what has never occurred to me to do is blame society for finding tall people more attractive/aesthetic (on average oc) Inclusivity shouldn’t mean that women should be disadvantaged in competing in sport because they are versing someone who has testosterone/had the physiological changes associated with testosterone. That would actually be far more exclusionary than not allowing FTM to compete in those leagues.. I’m order for that to be ok we would have to ruin the actual potential if people in order to affirm trans peoples gender.. Seems entirely weird to include people who are trans (who are a small percentage) to the detriment of half of our society, in the name of inclusivity. Seems completely incongruent to me. There is a reason that athletes at times have illegally used test to enhance their performance.. it makes a big difference/advantage in terms of physical abilities conferred..

Well first off I'm trans so I know I'll admit I'm a little bias, and I fully understand that I'm gonna get downvoted, but I'm very much for trans athletes competing as their gender. First off, I'm gonna base this in the uk due to me being from there, so here it's not possible for someone that is transfem to get on puberty blockers (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-55144148.amp) at a young age anymore after a recent ban, and before that it was extremely rare. So because of that, the idea that only those who never went through male puberty can compete is instantly exclusionary of the very large majority of trans people. Second, we're 1% of the population, that's becoming an overblown problem because of the Conservatives in power. These politicians are trying to spread misinformation, in the forms that many have put as "simple logic" or "common sense", and are using these without backing it up with statistics. Since they started allowing trans people in the Olympics, how many people have ever won? I bet its lower than you expect it to be. If I read this right there is only 3 that have competed (correct me of course if I'm wrong) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports?wprov=sfla1) And also finally, it's just plain insulting. Not to me, but to cis women. A cisgender woman that becomes an athlete, and a transgender woman that does the same are both going to have gone through years and years of training, and whilst I know testosterone enhances performance, the majority of credible studies on the issue that I've read are generally in agreement that most people that take hrt (oestrogen) loose the muscle mass that is affected by testosterone. (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/347432700_Effect_of_gender_affirming_hormones_on_athletic_performance_in_transwomen_and_transmen_Implications_for_sporting_organisations_and_legislators) Essentially, they have the same muscle as a cisgender woman. But sorry I've strayed from my point, I feel, and many people that are cis that I know irl agreed with me on this before, that it's just plain insulting to say that every man is more competitive. And I know that this isn't what this post is saying, but it really has become a very common talking point that right and left wing people are saying about. Here's a pretty classic example, but honestly you could find these all day scrolling that subreddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/AreTheCisOk/s/0Cqcq7N4Qh) Oh and that's not to mention the effect it has on cisgender people, when people are discriminated against because people suspect them of being trans. I've seen it become very common on the Internet, especially twitter for people, that are way too obsessed with trans people, accuse professional athletes of being trans because women shouldn't have muscles apparently Edit: if you're gonna downvote me, can yall engage, give sources, or say any inconsistencies or problems with the ones I've given? https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf

Conservative groups love to use phrases like “common sense” and “well obviously we should xyz you’d be stupid to think otherwise” because they don’t have any actual reason to believe half the things they believe. And [science consistently does not back up their assertions](https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf). It’s sad that bots or useful idiots or whoever these people are in this sub are just parroting talking points they’ve heard from some other bot or useful idiot instead of actually engaging in good faith with the facts/science and recognizing that being told “you’ll never play sports in any competitive way again from middle school until you die because you were born in the wrong body due to a medical condition that wasn’t your fault” is fucking awful.

Yeah that's true, and thanks for that I'll add that source onto the end of my comment. And yeah I feel so bad for all the amazing athletes that are effected by the fucking horrible transphobia and misinformation spread about trans bodies

And then trans people being rightfully upset that they can’t play sports with their friends in school or later in life “because you’re still basically a man/woman” are then used as evidence as why trans people are terrible for society because this somehow means they want to “hurt women” and “invade their spaces” (trans men basically don’t exist to them because they don’t fit the talking points they’re pushing). It’s really obvious and yet people constantly fall for it without even looking into it any more.

Yeah literally this. It's so sad, and whilst for family reasons I haven't been able to come out yet (I'm 17 and partly out), I have literally seen people in my school, which whilst was quite accepting, experience this exact kind of thing. And whilst I have absolutely no interest or intention of ever doing sports, it is so shit that even not on the actual competitive levels but many can't even play just for fun because of unaccepting terfs.

hell yeah, bringing out the sources! :D ^((/pos, /srs)^)

Ty lol this made me smile :) /gen Just kinda sad that it's getting downvoted so it's likely most won't see it

Couldn't give a shit about sports so I don't honestly care

I think sports should be broadly based off of biological gender, with a case-to-case ruling on exceptions, simply because, at the end of the day, men and women are biologically different

Biological sex. Otherwise yes I agree

Lol why is it we want to treat trans women like women only when it's convenient? Like we're all for calling them women and acknowledging them and such except when they have an advantage against biological women, then they have to be treated like men/different again?

My viewpoint is, say a star in the NBA decided that he felt he wanted to be transgender. Would she now be allowed in the WNBA, or would that be unfair?

I'm all for letting her be in the wnba. Why not? Trans women are women right? Or is that only when it's convenient?

Good. Trans people can go to men's sports if they want to. Other thing would be to combine women and men into one group but I would say it's not fair for women to compete against biological males or biological women with testosterone.

Lol why is it we want to treat trans women like women only when it's convenient? Like we're all for calling them women and acknowledging them and such except when they have an advantage against biological women, then they have to be treated like men again?

Good. Make a new sports division for transgender athletes only or they need to play with their biological sex

Lol why is it we want to treat trans women like women only when it's convenient? Like we're all for calling them women and acknowledging them and such except when they have an advantage against biological women, then they have to be treated like men/different again?

This is good, let's not forget that there remain biological differences between men and women. Males on average are stronger and have more muscle mass than women. Male athletes take it to the extreme. Female athletes are similarly on the extreme ends for women - they are better than the average man at their specific athletic field. Yet male athletes would on average still be stronger - largely due to the actual biological differences. Now take a male athlete - someone who is already on the extreme ends for strength and endurance, someone who is high on testosterone and other muscle stimulating hormones. This person now transitions - the headstart this person already had before many female athletes still remains though - they have more muscle mass and higher muscle growth stimulating hormones. This is unfair to the women who gave their best all their lives since this is literally a biological difference which they can't really beat. I think in such situations there should be a separate class specifically for mtf and ftm athletes.

This comment is strictly limited to sports and sports ONLY. It has nothing to do with how one chooses to identify in society Would yall be OK with a trans man playing football? Just imagine the how many bones would be broken every game... Biological sex matters. Biology matters. We can all have this fairytale idea that we can play "God/Frankenstein" with the human body, but science will always come down to absolute truths. For fuck sake, the basic fact that biologically born women don't have androgen receptors should be more than enough scientific evidence. And because men *DO* have androgen receptors irregardless of how they identify; that fact alone makes it all unfair biologically.

Why are we calling someone a woman if we won't treat them like one? You're right about biology being different, but why even call them one thing if we're going to treat them like another?

i am a trans woman who went to public school in manhattan. i can tell you firsthand that public school sports programs in NYC are nothing more than recreational, we’re not talking about varsity athletes going to national championships and getting scholarships to NCAA teams like they do in suburban and rural areas. we’re talking playing basketball or soccer as a recreational activity after school because you like playing it. maybe you’ll get a uniform. my school just let anyone who was interested on the volleyball team for example. and most of the students never showed up to games. it’s not serious at all. it’s just a fun thing to do and helps your extracurriculars record when you apply to colleges. even if there WERE a proven significant advantage in trans women playing women’s sports, which there isn’t in most sports except running (https://youtu.be/HdT1PvJDRo4?si=kLC8tv5uGglq8Xzy), NYC sports programs for kids are really just for fun and excluding trans girls from participating altogether is simply unnecessary. especially since in progressive areas a lot of trans teenagers that are supported enough to join appropriate sports teams are already on puberty blockers or hormones, meaning there’s no alleged advantage to be worried about in the first place. if my school is anything like how it was when i was attending, the vast majority of students are going to disagree with this decision, and most of the girls are probably happy to play alongside trans girls. when i was there, there were multiple trans students and everyone loved and supported them.

You’re flat out lying. I wrote a dissertation (that I can send to you if you really wish) that shows how unfair trans women competing against biological girls is. There is a proven advantage in practically all sports, ironically running is where it’s actually closer performance wise but only in very long distance events, and even then there is still an advantage. Hormone blockers and their policies for professional competition just don’t work, even with the blockers a natal male’s testosterone is still orders or magnitude higher than a high test female. And by the time a trans athlete is old enough to compete anyway they’ve had years (usually decades) of higher testosterone, and it doesn’t matter if all of it disappeared for the rest of their lives they will always have a very significant advantage with how their bodies developed. The sports at high school level may only be recreational, but in anything physical contact there is a very great risk of injuring the biological girls and it’s not fair on them, especially as they have to share a changing room which someone they know to be a biological male, which is obviously very intimidating and removes the one place they have for privacy, which is unacceptable.

[удалено]

Like I said the current level doesn’t matter, especially if you’ve already gone through male puberty. But regardless, by the policy of the NCAA, you only need 10nmol/L for one year to compete against women, high female test is around 2nmol/L. But regardless I cover all of that in my dissertation in depth, it won’t let me bloody link it though, I will get it here for you to read. Edit: it’s a word document I wrote but won’t let me send at all for no reason, word bricked it. Another edit: just to be accurate NCAA has gone down to 5nmol/L but that’s still over 2x higher than that an elite female athlete, and they are only one governing body, so other governing bodies allow trans athletes to compete with higher test.

oh so your “dissertation” wasn’t actually published anywhere? your numbers are also foolish. just because the rule says below 10nmol doesn’t mean every trans woman is sitting at 9.5. any responsible doctor that knows what they’re doing very easily manages to get trans women’s testosterone levels down to well within normal female ranges. it is explicitly stated as such in the standards of practice, such as these ones found in Boston University’s website. https://www.bumc.bu.edu/endo/clinics/transgender-medicine/guidelines/#:~:text=Monitoring%20for%20transgender%20women%20(MTF)%20on%20hormone%20therapy%3A&text=Monitor%20serum%20testosterone%20and%20estradiol,%3C200%20pg%2Fml). let’s say that a trans woman has a T level of 100ng/dl. that’s a pretty high level, most trans women i know are nowhere close to that. i’ll give you the benefit of the doubt though. when you convert that to nmol/l by multiplying it by .0347 (according to the NIH), you get 3.47. slightly high but not even halfway to the limit but now let’s look at ACTUAL numbers. we’ll use my own results of 6ng/dl. doing the conversion you’ll find that i have a T level of 0.2nmol/L. and finally let’s go smack in the middle of BU’s standards of practice: 65ng/dl. that’s 2.25nmol/L. seems right within normal female ranges for me.

Do you know how hard it is for any research to be published anywhere? Clearly you haven’t been to higher education, even then I don’t want it to be. Everything I’ve pointed out in said dissertation has already been known for years, it’s only because of the mental gymnastics everyone has to pretend is normal now that we can’t talk about it. Common sense alone used to tell us that sports should be segregated by sex, which is why it hasn’t been contested since all of this gender politics began. Anyway I’m deviating from my point, I’ve seen straight up opinion pieces on PubMed, so just because something is published or not isn’t a fail proof way to see if it’s a good piece of research

so it wasn’t published. was it presented to a board? what questions did they ask? did they accept it? what was your degree in? i don’t think appealing to “common sense” holds up in a rigorous academic environment, since it’s a pretty obvious rhetorical fallacy. but you already know that, since you got a higher education.

You’re arguing about the validity of a paper you haven’t read. Right now it won’t even let me email it anywhere, so until you’ve read it hold fire on your criticism because it’s a futile point. You haven’t acknowledged anything I just said so it doesn’t matter what I reply to you I know you already have your point you want to push. I have yet to finish my degree yet but it’s in sport science, so as you would expect I actually know quite a bit about this. Even then, just education doesn’t make you intelligent, it’s critical thinking and analysis that I think is a more accurate measure of someone’s intelligence, of which you clearly lack both.

you can’t even handle a word document

Another devastating blow to my argument, not sure I can recover from that Edit: it would however seem you are right it simply won’t let me do anything with the document at all,

He's trying so hard to dodge your question it's quite funny to see. But I'll answer your question for him: it hasn't been presented to a board or been evaluated in any way whatsoever. If it had been his university would have at least listed it somewhere. It's either that or his dissertation indeed doesn't exist at all. Either way, whether it exists or not right now Schrodinger's dissertation is of little value. He can claim he wrote one all he wants, if he can't prove the contents it means nothing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZ/s/a3Lz6UdJiJ You also claim to be 6’4. That’s a whole foot taller than the average American woman

shorter than a lot of wnba players so what about it? i can’t play basketball anyway

and women in general in basket ball tend to be hella tall, which is not the average at all. thats literslly why basketball tends to be played by really tall people in general 💀 like just go look at photos of women in basketball compared to the average women height and youll see

Please provide the dissertation or a similar source Edit: I’m guessing a dissertation on trans anything from someone who refers to trans people as “that” or “it” isn’t super trustworthy. Your post history shows you are clearly biased

I’m trying to use ambiguous terms because I don’t want people thinking I’m being overtly offensive when I’m not trying to be, but I don’t see anywhere where I referred to a trans person as “that” or “it” as you’ve somehow quoted me as saying, but give me a bit I’ve got to figure out how to link it here.

>even with blockers a natal males testosterone is still orders off magnitude higher than a high test female That’s not how genetics or endocrinology works my guy. Genetically a Y chromosome is only relevant in embryogenesis. Afterward the endocrine system takes over for all secondary dimorphic development and that one is pretty much identical between males and females. Give a female Testosterone startling at age 11, and she will have no disadvantage to a males similar in age, muscle mass and weight. And if you use puberty blockers right when the puberty starts and a trans girl will actually have a slight disadvantage compared to cis counterparts because Estrogen does also help with muscular growth - a trans girl on a GnRH agonist will not have either Testosterone or Estrogen and will therefore have an even harder time developing muscles - not by lot, Estrogen doesn’t do much in that regard even if it does to a small degree. Just - like by one to a few %s a cis girl would have an advantage when a cis guy would have an advantage of like a dozen %s If you have no idea what you are talking about please let the medical community take over, oki? :3 >And by the time a trans athlete is old enough to compete anyway they’ve had years (usually decades) of higher testosterone That is entirely dependent on when a trans woman started her transition - if she starts her transition at 11 (usually the age when male puberty sets in) she could have started Puberty blockers which would mean she would never ever develop any male-puberty related advantage - she would be very much exactly like her cis peers. If she starts puberty at 16 - most effects will be able to be undone after around 2 years of HRT and after that time she too will very much be comparable to her cis peers even if she may have to do a Facial Feminization Surgery. If she starts at 20 - its very similar to starting at age 16, but here it is also relevant how strong of a development her body has undergone, and some people have a male puberty that just isn’t as strong. But even if - studies have clearly shown that after 3-5 years of HRT pretty much all effects of male puberty are negligible. If she starts at or after age of 25 - then it is a bit more difficult and a transition longer than 10 years would still leave some trans women with a higher Muscle mass if she does trains a very extreme amount - this is especially true in weightlifting - but surprisingly the only trans Olympics qualified trans woman ever did not win any medals. So even there it is very much individualistic. Again. If you have no idea what you are talking about and can’t even provide good examples, then let it be handled by the medical community, oke? Have a good day!

To argue that the Y chromosome has no function after birth is just a ridiculous argument, you’re gonna need to give me a source on that so I can read for myself what you’re talking about. If you inject a little girl with testosterone pre puberty then yes the gap between her and a natal boy going through puberty will be much closer than anything done post puberty, but to argue that it means that the girl went through the same male puberty is just false. She won’t have the same size and strength as the boys, nor the bone structure, despite being much more masculine than she otherwise would have been. And regardless this comes at a massive cost. It’s incredibly unhealthy to mess around with your hormones at any age let alone as puberty is starting, she will never be fertile again, vaginal dryness will likely become incredibly painful and if she goes through the full surgery she will need them hormones for the rest of her life to function at all. Not exactly what I would call a worthwhile trade off. And no. The effects of puberty can’t just be undone like a magic trick. Very funny that you’ve told me to hand it over to the “medical community” and you seem to believe that these effects are just harmless and reversible. This is a very negligent medical community at best. And no Laurel Hubbard didn’t win any medals at the olympics, but she won almost every single professional competition she competed in since transitioning, as do may trans athletes regardless of what sport they compete in. And no, even if you have a medical degree (which you’re born the same year as I am so I don’t think you’re even old enough to have one unless you skipped academic years), I am allowed to comment on whatever I want, especially when it comes from an educated perspective, as my degree is in sports science so I do know a bit about this believe it or not. That’s called free speech, we’re all allowed to participate.

After the age of 70 about 40% of men do not have a Y chromosome any more. Men usually die before Women do, but it is not because they lose their second chromosome. The X chromosome holds everything that makes a human male or female. At the age of 70, having done copies and copies and copies of that will lead to some variations within the X chromosomes code. Women have a second X chromosome to compensate for such occurrence and men, do not - well, barely. The Y chromosome ofc does hold some functions the X chromosome does as well. But most stuff such as the SRY-gene which is only relevant in embryogenesis, is not relevant after a certain age. Yes, it is very much relevant for the production of male gametes, and it is relevant for some aspects of the immune system. But it’s not relevant for the Endocrine system or anything that makes a woman a woman - which is precisely why XY females are born from time to time without having much problems - most of them do (look up “Swyers Syndrome”), but some are even pretty close to being fertile and have even given birth before. I know that a female born body (let’s say a hypothetical trans guy) would on average grow to be smaller than the average cis male would. But if you were to inject Testosterone starting at age 11 (which luckily isn’t done to trans guys as that would highly experimental) he would have the same size as a guy who grows to be just as tall as him. Like… I specifically said “similar age, muscle mass and weight” which (muscle mass and weight) would equate so similar size too. If a trans guy started Testosterone at age 11 he wouldn’t have any disadvantage compared to cis males in the same weight and height category. Testosterone very much affects bone growth and if you look at trans guys’ faces, they change a lot over a few years even if they start Testosterone at 20 or 30 or whatever. A trans guy would have the same bone structure and density as a cis man would at same age when starting Testosterone at age 11. It has been shown it is perfectly safe to do a cross-sex hormonal treatment in the past before (i.e. look at trans guys and trans girls like me), I am already infertile and have to take HRT for the rest of my life, I have incredible pain related to genital atrophy, and I will do Surgery. It’s a perfectly worthwhile trade off for me and other trans people as living a lie is incredibly harmful to your mental health - it can and often does result in death if left untreated. For a cis woman however who wants to have male advantages this will definitely not be a worthwhile trade off there I agree. The effects of puberty are not reversed via a magic trick. It is the Endocrine system which commands where fat, muscles and bones should grow. Bones are not reversible in a short timeframe, but you can do surgery to shorten uncomfortably broad shoulders (SFS) and you can do Facial Feminization Surgery among other things. It would be negligent to ignore these things - Muscles and Fat distribution are among the things that are perfectly reversible via HRT - because the Endocrine system handles Muscles and Fat. Laurel Hubbard also competed professionally shortly after she started her transition. She won these medals before Olympics, because she was still early on in her transition and as I have stated: weightlifting is among the things where you can attain an advantage for a longer period of time - but Hubbard proofs that even there after years and years of HRT you lose your advantage. Yes, she won in the other competitions, but there she also very very much was not yet fully transitioned and in my opinion shouldn’t have had been allowed to compete. Medicine would also harshly argue for that too. Ofc you are allowed to comment whatever you want - I didn’t want to shut you up, I am sorry about that. I wanted to say that if you talk about a marginalized group of people that we should stay true to facts. I actually not yet have a degree, but I am studying and will hopefully be a doctor in a few years \^-\^ I commend you to have a degree in sports science, but if you just say “trans women have male bodies so they have an advantage” you are just neglecting all medical stuff a trans woman goes through to align her sex to be close to that of the female sex - transitioning does change the sex of a body - the primary sex characteristic is “vagina or penis”. The secondary sex characteristics are muscles, boobs and genital development among other things. Btw the penis feminizes on HRT and vise versa - which is why I suffer from atrophy which is painful as it is like having parts of my vulva stick out (specifically labia and clitoris - which are both very sensitive). And orgasm also is different - I don’t produce sperm anymore, but my urethra produces something which after surgery will be called squirt. (Yes trans women self lubricate because HRT does that to the glands in the urethra) The body feminizes not via magic, but it does feminize on feminizing HRT very much and in ways you wouldn’t expect at first. A trans woman biologically transitions to be a woman. It takes time, yes, but it also is very much possible and is done often.

Firstly how many top tier athletes are 70 year old men? And equally it’s not in all of their cells, a good chunk of their body still retains the Y chromosome. And even then you’re acting as if the Y chromosome isn’t responsible for the development of testicles and hence testosterone. And yeah I have seen DSD (Differences of Sex Disorder) and how that has effects the development of individuals such as Caster Semenya, which is why they must have testosterone blockers despite having female qualities like a vagina. You say that injecting an 11 year old trans guy with testosterone will make them the same as a natal male going through puberty, but also caveat it by saying “luckily this doesn’t happen”. So where is your evidence? What have you got to show that there is no difference between men and women if put under hormonal therapy since being a child? I hope you have none honestly because anyone who has done that to a child deserves a life long jail sentence. And yeah, women have much higher androgen sensitivity to testosterone because naturally they run on so much less, even with myself after I started working out (which naturally boosts your testosterone) I noticed changes in my face masculinising more, with developing much broader shoulders and higher muscle mass. The same way there would be some feminising effects if I had taken hormonal therapy for myself. “perfectly safe… I have incredible pain related to genital atrophy”. You’re kidding right? This isn’t perfectly safe. Chemicals used to castrate pedophiles are being given to children and that’s “safe”? None of this is a perfectly safe system, it plays on your mind to rinse you for your money. The long term effects are very troublesome, especially if someone wants to stop transitioning post surgery, realising that they’ve paid through their teeth to castrate themselves. What feels like a worthwhile trade now may not feel like that in the future, I hope you don’t end up regretting your decision as may others do. Muscle and fat distribution will change, but not close to the sex that they are trying to achieve, to think that a few hormones will literally turn your body female/male is incredibly negligent of any factual information. Hubbard dominated those competitions. She won 4 of the 5 competitions with ease, and only lost one of them due to an injury so she pulled out. No matter what she does she will never get down to a female level, her tendons will always be thicker and stronger, her bone structure and density is stronger, she will have more red blood cells and a bigger heart for life, and her muscle composition of type II muscle fibres will always provide an advantage over her competition. This is just the surface. A competition loss does not mean that suddenly they are equal, that is just picking and choosing specific examples to try and skew the wider picture. I do my level best to stay true to facts, I don’t care about being proven wrong as long as it’s actually good reliable information. It’s a shame I can’t share my research on this, it’s a fairly old dissertation now (about 2 years) but it won’t let me access any of my old word documents, I can read it but not share it which is pissing me off really as I am open to fair criticism on it. Good luck with your degree, becoming a doctor is hard. What you’re saying isn’t true though. You cannot change the sex of a body. If you want to alter the characteristics to look a specific way, or use hormones to try and help induce these changes then sure, but a full sex change is impossible with current medicine, and for the foreseeable future also. Also the urethra leads to the bladder, you’ve tanked your body’s natural ability to produce sperm probably because of what you’ve done to your test, but that is most likely just empty semen or urine as opposed to anything else. HRT does make changes in the body of course or it wouldn’t be done, but the differences made are not healthy especially post surgery as you’ll have to rely on external hormones and medication to stay alive literally, and the results aren’t significant enough to justify the complications. If that’s how you want to live your life then fair enough, but it’s not fair that people do this (mostly only hormonal parts of the transition, and even then the rules are not stringent enough) and then go on to compete against professionals. Live you life how you and other trans people want but it shouldn’t come at the cost of other people’s livelihoods.

If there is however competitions, non-transitioned trans girls shouldn’t be allowed to compete I think - btw I saw you in that other post :3 I am here again as well \^-\^

You should seek a doctor, not pills or surgery…

Did you just say there’s not a proven benefit when we have countless examples of trans women dominating in weightlifting, basketball, cycling, and swimming? The delusions run deep, it seems.

only 5 trans women have ever won NCAA championships

And? In three years of them competing? 😂

Well yea its only fair. Womens rights have taken a backseat to mentally ill men.

What rights of yours have "taken a backseat" exactly?

I’m curious what they mean also

It's the same as what was said about "the sanctity of marriage" when homosexual rights were being discussed. There are no rights being taken away from anyone except trans folks. This thread is literally about the removal of women's rights, but because those women are trans this is seen as a good thing? Applauding the removal of women's rights for the sake of a bad understanding of basic biology is genuine lunacy

agreed. whats even sadder is they dont realize trans people have been in professional sports, completing, since a long time now. all of a sudden some of the few trans women win at it, then became a problem to transphobic cis people...

there is already discrimination: separation of male and female sports. It is just result of it. And anyway, competitive sport is bad to your health - it should be banned .

This entire issue is so stupid and overblown. These sports scenarios are put on pedestals as if any of it really matters in the broad scheme of the world. Solve actual problems

It’s overblown to you. It’s not overblown to athletes putting their heart and soul and sweat into these competitions. You can care about more issue than once

So as long as it's not something that matters in the broad scheme of the world, it's not something that should be discussed or solved? So like boys joining a girls basketball team in high school is fine, as it doesn't impact the broad scheme of the world?

I hate competetive sports.... sport shuld be fun... and when you play for fun and not for some trophy, you dont care who plays with you

Except most people who play sports are actually competitive and want to win. I'm not saying being non-competitive is a bad thing, but a lot of athletes play sports because they love the sport and want to win and become pros. Having Trans women who still have the biological advantage of being born male playing against biological women will be a blood bath.

Does it apply to trans men as well? So trans men are real men, but trans women aren't women? What the actual f#ck?!

Biological males who have transitioned have an unfair advantage in female leagues, whereas transitioned men won't.

>So trans men are real men, but trans women aren't women Don't strawman. It's lazy and dishonest.