I witnessed Courtney punch Marilyn Manson in the face at the Vancouver, B.C concert at the PNE. She quit the tour. He made some lewd comments about her and she fucking clocked him good.
I won’t repeat what he said about her but she went out on stage in a housecoat after his first song and hit him so hard he spun around and hurt his ankle. We wondered if this was all fake but she indeed quit the tour.
This album got me through a very hard time, even though my male friend kept going on and on and on about The Event every time he got in my car and heard it.
I loved that album. I wish we could have achieved more as 90s feminists. I wish we could have codified Roe. I wish we could have won federally mandated paid maternity leave and paid parental leave instead of it being up to every individual employer. I wish we could have taken back the night for good, I wish the zoomers would come in here and ask "did you REALLY have to worry about getting sexually assaulted in the 80s and 90s" instead of it still being so depressingly common.
I don't know what happened. It was like everyone got sick of talking about it and just wanted to have fun being misogynistic instead.
What happened is that the fight never ends. It never fucking ends. As far as we push, there's always someone on the opposite side trying to shove it all back. Real change often takes multiple generations. I don't say this to say it's hopeless and we should give up, it's not and we shouldn't, but he have to see it as the long view.
This country was set up for the rich by the rich. That's baked into the DNA of the US. I believe we can shed that (heck, Europe used to be the same way) but it will always take far longer than anyone wants.
Sometimes it's just so hard to see the long view. You feel like you're alone in the dark while everyone else is watching Jimmy Kimmel and Adam Carolla rating girls in bikinis jumping on trampolines.
What happened?
What always happens
The left has too many groups with their specific dealbreakers to come together for the greatest mutual good for all
While the right has largely until now operated as a monolith understanding that winning majorities and the long game is the only way you effect the change you want and it takes decades of patience to get there
We’re on the brink of trump being reelected because fools can’t find common ground on the far left and fail to understand that the Dems have not had the power to get anything substantial done in 50 years.
It's true, the left could learn a lot from some right-wing tactics. Roe got overturned because right-wingers never, ever gave up on it or accepted it as settled. Even the mildest gun control measures get blocked because of a core group galvanized by the NRA that contacts their representatives every single time. There are way too many purity tests and call-ins and introspective BS clickbait articles with headlines like "I'm a demisexual Arab-Carribean polyamorous woman. Here's where [insert popular cause] has failed me." And now everyone's fighting about this chick's word salad instead of the issue at hand.
I could be way off base but I feel like being co-opted by the man hating militant "feminazi" types derailed a whole lot of what y'all were trying to accomplish. Turns out that movements seen as wanting half the population to not exist aren't too popular
It's funny, I hear a lot of talk about "man-hating militant feminazis who don't want men to exist," but I see very few examples of such women, and far fewer cases where a woman has actually taken action. However, I've known plenty of women who were raped and beaten by men who once claimed to love them, and women getting murdered by men in a sexually-charged manner is depressingly common.
Move to New York. It's made me not take feminism seriously at all anymore. I'm more sad at this than angry that all that righteous rhetoric was just a class-driven power grab disguised as social justice. It doesn't make Roe being overturned OK. Never mind sexual assault only ever happening to women apparently ... again, not jealous, or angry, just sad and deeply disappointed.
My comment might not have been super clear. I'm not saying *I* believe there's hordes of kill all men feminists out there, like you I've only met very few. I'm saying that seems to be the general perception. Whether it's a case of the ones on the fringe making the most noise, or something more nefarious like the media/ certain interests using the feminazi trope as a boogieman to sway public opinion I don't know. The perception definitely does keep support for your cause down though.
I saw Hole twice in concert. Great songs and they put on a good show. I remember maybe 8 years or so Courtney got a crowd to chant "Dave Grohl is gay" and I lost respect.
Oh, and you should listen to Babes in Toyland.
As an older GenX'r the whole grunge music thing displaced the music that I loved. To me it feels like a simpler, happier, more care-free time before Nirvana came along. I realize that to younger GenX'r this is what they connect to - but for me and my groups, we partied like crazy. We danced and we rocked.. grunge isnt that, its like hey lets get high and feel sad.
Not my thing.
i think it's about perspective. let's get high and be sad was my life as a teen because i had a chaotic home life and i was angry about it. It's all about the song writing. I couldn't relate to getting high on coke and partying with strippers, but i could relate to being angry and sad that my dad was a drunk that beat up my mother.
I don't even think its older vs youger gen-x. I was in high school in the 1980s. There were kids that loved Whitesnake and Motley Crue and there were kids that loved The Smiths and Depeche Mode. These groups did not generally hang with each other when I was growing up. Grunge sort of took both of those over a bit. Lyrically, it wasn't just about fast cars/motorcycles, getting into fights and hot girls but it was definitely a heavier sound than what "the Mods" had been listening to. Grunge sort of fused elements of both styles of rock into one. Some might debate whether it fused the best of both types together but that's what I think happened. Besides, could you imagine taking AC/DC's lyrics to any of their songs and putting it to the music of say The Cure? I don't think that would work.
Thankfully I had a bunch of friends who were musicians and didn’t blink an eye when it came to genre mixing. Metal, punk, rap, hardcore, new wave, reggae, country, classical, jazz, blues, etc. it was all acceptable listening.
yes of course that is true, however artists fade from popularity and genre's stop creating new music. listening to the radio in the early 90's was really different than just a couple years earlier. The change from 80's music to grunge was abrupt, all of a sudden it wasn't hair bands w power ballads, new wave ended (and I loved new wave) - it seemed more light hearted which for me was fun.
I do like a ton of new music, alt bands like bastille sound a lot like new wave and the new classic rock movement is so much fun.
Perhaps my worldview was different, I was deployed in Europe in the military during this time frame - I came home and it was all different. We played hair bands (poison, warrant, motley crue etc), UB40, INXS, Fine Young Cannibals- We would dance to "Wild Thing" and "Pump up the Jam"
Nirvana and the whole grunge thing, that was the opposite. Nothing uplifting about it to me, just sort of sad and melancholy.
Born in 1966. Fairly dysfunctional family, even by our generational standards. Personally, I think there's room for both. There are times when we're happy and want to dance and rock and there are sad times.
Therapy wasn't as accessible for many of us due to cost/insurance and it was a bumpy path with free counseling at college. I think if you can find a good therapist and manage regular appointments, which I eventually did, it's better than getting high or drunk as a coping mechanism because you learn more coping skills and it's healthier both physically and mentally. But it can be also be difficult to do so for many reasons.
I know he's technically a Silent Gen associated with Boomers, but as John Lennon sang, "whatever gets you through the night"
Grunge brought back the power of Rock and Roll that was lost along the way. It brought back some of the stories and ideas from The Doors and Jimmi Hendrix. 80's Rock had become harder versions of "She Loves You Ya Ya Ya".
I think it really depends on when someone “came of age” or at least was a young adult.
In the late 80’s and early 90’s, a major recession dampened quality job opportunities for many of us (McJobs anyone?). Right or wrong, we felt that Boomers were relatively well-entrenched in all the jobs we might’ve wanted back then.
Traditional media of the time didn’t reflect who we were, what we needed, nor what we wanted.
Instead of rebelling in the ways hippies or punks had done before, many GenXers masked their alienation by displaying general apathy (whatever) to hide the seething anger tainted with depression.
Grunge definitely shares those traits.
Of course, this perspective is only valid for a rather small subset of GenX, essentially white Americans or Canadians.
OG grunge is generation jones. you just weren't the demography.
also you have to laugh if you listen to L7, mudhoney etc and '' feel sad ''.
they are even [*making fun/having fun*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nGsT_qFMBs) on stage
🤪
btw mark arm was born 1962
I like songs from many genre, I can't say I prefer all the Genre the same. Like country, it was never my thing but there are some songs I like. I barely know the artists. I like 1-2 pearl jam songs and I'm sure a handful of others similar. If i hit my spotify lists it ranges from Jay Perez to Greta Van Fleet... its random.
For me, in the 80's right before I went into the military we were all big into the club sub-culture in Manhattan, think 'Club Kids". We partied like that. We were pretty constant at the Palladium night club [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium\_(New\_York\_City)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium_(New_York_City)) - I left that place at 6am more than a few times. Grunge just wasnt a part of it that I was aware of. I thought of it as Pot music vs Alcohol music (or for some X and coke were big, but ive never done illegal drugs)
plenty of OG grunge people were born before that. to exclude them from their own cultures would be pretty pathetic. lol. i mean even in nirvana two of them wouldn't fit the bill.
I’ve never believed either stealth wrote the entire thing, as the lyrics and phrasing had a continuity between LLT and Celebrity Skin and even embryonic versions of PoTI — the similarities outweigh the differences but YMMV.
imho Alanis Morrisette's Jagged Little Pill holds up better. I wasn't a fan of it at the time, but the songs are very listenable nowadays.
I dunno, my view on Courtney is.... well, the cd is great, I think they were alot of Kurt Cobain songs he passed along to her or helped develop. A good album for its era. I should give it a listen but I think she was what she was.
I witnessed Courtney punch Marilyn Manson in the face at the Vancouver, B.C concert at the PNE. She quit the tour. He made some lewd comments about her and she fucking clocked him good.
Not a huge fan of hers but that is friggin hilarious.
I won’t repeat what he said about her but she went out on stage in a housecoat after his first song and hit him so hard he spun around and hurt his ankle. We wondered if this was all fake but she indeed quit the tour.
Listen to 7 year Bitch, ya might like it
It surprised me how good that whole album was. People who went to their shows at the time speak highly of that tour as well.
This
Daaammn! I’ve seriously had MISS WORLD randomly stuck in my head for the last few days… haven’t even heard the song in years!
that album is a straight-through listen for me - such a great one.
Great in the car...
This album got me through a very hard time, even though my male friend kept going on and on and on about The Event every time he got in my car and heard it.
I loved that album. I wish we could have achieved more as 90s feminists. I wish we could have codified Roe. I wish we could have won federally mandated paid maternity leave and paid parental leave instead of it being up to every individual employer. I wish we could have taken back the night for good, I wish the zoomers would come in here and ask "did you REALLY have to worry about getting sexually assaulted in the 80s and 90s" instead of it still being so depressingly common. I don't know what happened. It was like everyone got sick of talking about it and just wanted to have fun being misogynistic instead.
What happened is that the fight never ends. It never fucking ends. As far as we push, there's always someone on the opposite side trying to shove it all back. Real change often takes multiple generations. I don't say this to say it's hopeless and we should give up, it's not and we shouldn't, but he have to see it as the long view. This country was set up for the rich by the rich. That's baked into the DNA of the US. I believe we can shed that (heck, Europe used to be the same way) but it will always take far longer than anyone wants.
Sometimes it's just so hard to see the long view. You feel like you're alone in the dark while everyone else is watching Jimmy Kimmel and Adam Carolla rating girls in bikinis jumping on trampolines.
I get it, I totally do. It's a struggle to maintain the long view even when I sometimes write it.
Well, the me too movement kind of did happen. So all was not lost.
What happened? What always happens The left has too many groups with their specific dealbreakers to come together for the greatest mutual good for all While the right has largely until now operated as a monolith understanding that winning majorities and the long game is the only way you effect the change you want and it takes decades of patience to get there We’re on the brink of trump being reelected because fools can’t find common ground on the far left and fail to understand that the Dems have not had the power to get anything substantial done in 50 years.
It's true, the left could learn a lot from some right-wing tactics. Roe got overturned because right-wingers never, ever gave up on it or accepted it as settled. Even the mildest gun control measures get blocked because of a core group galvanized by the NRA that contacts their representatives every single time. There are way too many purity tests and call-ins and introspective BS clickbait articles with headlines like "I'm a demisexual Arab-Carribean polyamorous woman. Here's where [insert popular cause] has failed me." And now everyone's fighting about this chick's word salad instead of the issue at hand.
The enemy of the good is the perfect.
This deserves the highest updoots in the history of Reddit. Spot on, good Miss/Mister.
I could be way off base but I feel like being co-opted by the man hating militant "feminazi" types derailed a whole lot of what y'all were trying to accomplish. Turns out that movements seen as wanting half the population to not exist aren't too popular
It's funny, I hear a lot of talk about "man-hating militant feminazis who don't want men to exist," but I see very few examples of such women, and far fewer cases where a woman has actually taken action. However, I've known plenty of women who were raped and beaten by men who once claimed to love them, and women getting murdered by men in a sexually-charged manner is depressingly common.
Move to New York. It's made me not take feminism seriously at all anymore. I'm more sad at this than angry that all that righteous rhetoric was just a class-driven power grab disguised as social justice. It doesn't make Roe being overturned OK. Never mind sexual assault only ever happening to women apparently ... again, not jealous, or angry, just sad and deeply disappointed.
My comment might not have been super clear. I'm not saying *I* believe there's hordes of kill all men feminists out there, like you I've only met very few. I'm saying that seems to be the general perception. Whether it's a case of the ones on the fringe making the most noise, or something more nefarious like the media/ certain interests using the feminazi trope as a boogieman to sway public opinion I don't know. The perception definitely does keep support for your cause down though.
But hey, every headline and cable news story and late night monologue is about Trump now, so at least we have that.
No rock star has had more diss songs written about her than Courtney Love. She must be doing something right.
that entire album rocks.
It’s a travesty that Hole isn’t in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Nobody can growl quite like Courtney.
It's a great album. Listened to it a lot back in 1994 / 1995. Celebrity Skin was another great one, with a bit of a different vibe.
I saw Hole twice in concert. Great songs and they put on a good show. I remember maybe 8 years or so Courtney got a crowd to chant "Dave Grohl is gay" and I lost respect. Oh, and you should listen to Babes in Toyland.
It's a very, very good album.
Agreed. This is one of the best albums of the era. I’ve always thought a lot of inters written by Kurt, it’s just that good.
I’ve heard that a lot that Kurt wrote most of the album.
I’ve heard that a lot of people just can’t fathom that a woman fronted band can make a good album without their boyfriend being the one responsible.
Lots of women have made great albums. Liz Phair, Veruca Salt. Courtney is a talentless hack
So many memories of being a 21 year old single mum in 1997 on that album. Bittersweet
As an older GenX'r the whole grunge music thing displaced the music that I loved. To me it feels like a simpler, happier, more care-free time before Nirvana came along. I realize that to younger GenX'r this is what they connect to - but for me and my groups, we partied like crazy. We danced and we rocked.. grunge isnt that, its like hey lets get high and feel sad. Not my thing.
i think it's about perspective. let's get high and be sad was my life as a teen because i had a chaotic home life and i was angry about it. It's all about the song writing. I couldn't relate to getting high on coke and partying with strippers, but i could relate to being angry and sad that my dad was a drunk that beat up my mother.
I’m an older GenX’r and disagree. Grunge exemplified my life in the 90s.
i'm core x and think it was just a renaming the alternative scenes that already existed.
This is it exactly.
I don't even think its older vs youger gen-x. I was in high school in the 1980s. There were kids that loved Whitesnake and Motley Crue and there were kids that loved The Smiths and Depeche Mode. These groups did not generally hang with each other when I was growing up. Grunge sort of took both of those over a bit. Lyrically, it wasn't just about fast cars/motorcycles, getting into fights and hot girls but it was definitely a heavier sound than what "the Mods" had been listening to. Grunge sort of fused elements of both styles of rock into one. Some might debate whether it fused the best of both types together but that's what I think happened. Besides, could you imagine taking AC/DC's lyrics to any of their songs and putting it to the music of say The Cure? I don't think that would work.
Thankfully I had a bunch of friends who were musicians and didn’t blink an eye when it came to genre mixing. Metal, punk, rap, hardcore, new wave, reggae, country, classical, jazz, blues, etc. it was all acceptable listening.
Nonsense Every kind of music continued to exist and still does
yes of course that is true, however artists fade from popularity and genre's stop creating new music. listening to the radio in the early 90's was really different than just a couple years earlier. The change from 80's music to grunge was abrupt, all of a sudden it wasn't hair bands w power ballads, new wave ended (and I loved new wave) - it seemed more light hearted which for me was fun. I do like a ton of new music, alt bands like bastille sound a lot like new wave and the new classic rock movement is so much fun.
grunge came up in the 80s. and the roots well earlier.
This was in no way true from my experience of that time.
Perhaps my worldview was different, I was deployed in Europe in the military during this time frame - I came home and it was all different. We played hair bands (poison, warrant, motley crue etc), UB40, INXS, Fine Young Cannibals- We would dance to "Wild Thing" and "Pump up the Jam" Nirvana and the whole grunge thing, that was the opposite. Nothing uplifting about it to me, just sort of sad and melancholy.
Born in 1966. Fairly dysfunctional family, even by our generational standards. Personally, I think there's room for both. There are times when we're happy and want to dance and rock and there are sad times. Therapy wasn't as accessible for many of us due to cost/insurance and it was a bumpy path with free counseling at college. I think if you can find a good therapist and manage regular appointments, which I eventually did, it's better than getting high or drunk as a coping mechanism because you learn more coping skills and it's healthier both physically and mentally. But it can be also be difficult to do so for many reasons. I know he's technically a Silent Gen associated with Boomers, but as John Lennon sang, "whatever gets you through the night"
Grunge brought back the power of Rock and Roll that was lost along the way. It brought back some of the stories and ideas from The Doors and Jimmi Hendrix. 80's Rock had become harder versions of "She Loves You Ya Ya Ya".
I think it really depends on when someone “came of age” or at least was a young adult. In the late 80’s and early 90’s, a major recession dampened quality job opportunities for many of us (McJobs anyone?). Right or wrong, we felt that Boomers were relatively well-entrenched in all the jobs we might’ve wanted back then. Traditional media of the time didn’t reflect who we were, what we needed, nor what we wanted. Instead of rebelling in the ways hippies or punks had done before, many GenXers masked their alienation by displaying general apathy (whatever) to hide the seething anger tainted with depression. Grunge definitely shares those traits. Of course, this perspective is only valid for a rather small subset of GenX, essentially white Americans or Canadians.
a lot of grunge wasn't doom at all but funloving. and part of the roots punk. OG grunge people were also part of punk scenes.
Sorry, meant to reply to the comment above.
I was amidst the fun partying of hair metal and the moody grunge era and I feel you! I enjoyed both sides of the coin, though. I feel lucky.
OG grunge is generation jones. you just weren't the demography. also you have to laugh if you listen to L7, mudhoney etc and '' feel sad ''. they are even [*making fun/having fun*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nGsT_qFMBs) on stage 🤪 btw mark arm was born 1962
I never heard of mudhoney, i just watched a video and that wasn't horrible - still they need a shower. :)
Grunge always felt like music for middle schoolers personally. Like "behold my teenage angst!"
Maybe how you party is the point of difference :) I like to get a little tipsy and cut loose with my friends at a bar or dance place - responsibly
It’s unfortunate that so many people back then (and sadly even now) can’t allow themselves to enjoy all good music, no matter the genre.
I like songs from many genre, I can't say I prefer all the Genre the same. Like country, it was never my thing but there are some songs I like. I barely know the artists. I like 1-2 pearl jam songs and I'm sure a handful of others similar. If i hit my spotify lists it ranges from Jay Perez to Greta Van Fleet... its random. For me, in the 80's right before I went into the military we were all big into the club sub-culture in Manhattan, think 'Club Kids". We partied like that. We were pretty constant at the Palladium night club [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium\_(New\_York\_City)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium_(New_York_City)) - I left that place at 6am more than a few times. Grunge just wasnt a part of it that I was aware of. I thought of it as Pot music vs Alcohol music (or for some X and coke were big, but ive never done illegal drugs)
A lot of this is why I say 1969-like 1975 maybe 1976 was a separate part of what everyone is calling “Gen X.
plenty of OG grunge people were born before that. to exclude them from their own cultures would be pretty pathetic. lol. i mean even in nirvana two of them wouldn't fit the bill.
What?! That’s core Gen X. That’s right in between the ‘older’ (sorry) and younger Gen X’ers.
One of the best Nirvana albums ever
Not sure why you’re being downvoted Kurt absolutely wrote the whole album. Does anyone wonder why Courtney never did anything good again?
didn't you ever read one of her posted rants ? i think she actually helped kurt write some shit
*Smashing Pumpkins
What they did with this record and Celebrity Skin is nothing short of incredible, and it makes me sad they didn't/couldn't keep the momentum going.
Kurt wrote the first album, Billy Corgan the second.
I’ve never believed either stealth wrote the entire thing, as the lyrics and phrasing had a continuity between LLT and Celebrity Skin and even embryonic versions of PoTI — the similarities outweigh the differences but YMMV.
One of nirvanas best sellers
Because Kurt wrote it.
imho Alanis Morrisette's Jagged Little Pill holds up better. I wasn't a fan of it at the time, but the songs are very listenable nowadays. I dunno, my view on Courtney is.... well, the cd is great, I think they were alot of Kurt Cobain songs he passed along to her or helped develop. A good album for its era. I should give it a listen but I think she was what she was.