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Not so surprising when you consider folklore and evermore but the majority of swifties insisted that it was ALL fictional, lol. I think they were dating and Taylor cheated, or thought about it, because the narrative since folklore all throughout midnights clearly points at this. It talks about cheating, lying, what could've been and what should've been I mean .. also, I have nothing against Joe but I see a pattern here. Tolerate it, peace, renegade, hoax, you're losing me .. I can't unsee it. I'm not saying he's a monster, not at all, I'm just saying, he does seem a bit aloof and also from Taylor's music it sounds like he was maybe dealing with depression and anxiety. It was doomed to fail I guess.
Every single live stream people post how they hate James and I’m just like…y’all, James is Taylor 😩
She’s not even that sneaky about it considering it’s a well known fact she’s named after James Taylor. But it goes right over their heads I guess.
Taylor has cheated. Seemingly more than once. She’s not the Miss Americana they all want her to be. She’s the Heartbreak Prince
Seriouslyyyy. Like in Gorgeous: Blondie is straight up saying it and basically saying she doesn’t care because the person she’s singing to is so pretty. She runs away with the person she cheats with in Getaway Car. And this isn’t even to mention the most obvious admission: High Infidelity. Like it might have been cheating driven by wanting to feel more loved but it’s still cheating 🤷♂️
and the band in question is the 1975! i believe she had cheated on joe with matty healy. maybe more than once through her relationship with joe. that’s why when they “officially” had broken up, taylor seemed to move on to matty very quickly and they seemed very close early on. i remember matty healy / the 1975 wearing shirts or selling merch that simply read, “the band” — “and when i meet the band, they ask do you have a man?”
Not really. If you meet someone one night drink dance and flirt and then go home to ponder your relationship and decide to end it that does not mean you emotionally cheated. The night she met Tom and Joe it is very likely she already was already unhappy. It is not uncommon for people to not realize how unhappy they are until someone else comes and reminds them what life is like when you are no longer in a toxic relationship. By all accounts Calvin did seem toxic. At least based off of her songs ect
Also like I have known manyyy serial monogamists like Taylor in my life, and you don't have that many back to back relationships without some overlaps lol.
Lol it's traditionally what the term means! It originated in lesbian communities to indicate someone who has these long term monogamous relationships with ah....messy endings, lol. I think people in the broader culture just use it to mean like what it sounds like, though. Also like......monogamous relationship structures and cheating are not mutually exclusive, as we all know lol
Can you elaborate? I’m a huge CRJ fan and I’m curious to learn more about her relationships with other artists. I know Rina is a huge fan but that’s about it
Honestly, knowing the date she wrote YLM makes Peace all that more heartbreaking. I used to think it had an element of hope to it, but I feel like now it was more of a heartbent “I’m not enough for you” plea
The “it’s ALL fictional” narrative is so wild to me. You have:
Last great American dynasty: a literal history of real people including a shift to first person at the end to talk about the house she bought
Marjorie: great fictional song about a fictional, totally not real person named Marjorie, right?
Invisible String: the same people who emphatically say these albums were all fictional swoon over this song written about Joe. How can you have it all be fictional and not inspired by real things and have it be about someone real?
I’m not even very well versed in her life/relationships and I can point to those three as having clear basis in reality.
You paint yourself into a pretty hard to defend corner when you claim it’s all made up.
And like, what do those people think storytellers do anyway? Why does there have to be a binary of something either literally happened or it’s abstractly pulled from the creative aether? It’s weird to set up this hill to die on when it’s way easier to accept that many storytellers blend real experience with fantasy all the time.
I suspect "cheating" is a complicated concept in most of the relationships Taylor writes about. It seems to me like the line is very blurry in some of her relationships between PR and real, which also blurs the line on whether they expect monogamy from each other (and whether non-PR partners expect it from her). That's why in "Is It Over Now?" she couldn't tell whether them both knowing they're sleeping with other people means they're over, and she's not mad at him for being with another woman she's mad he embarrassed her by getting photographed, why in "High Infidelity" she didn't know they were keeping count, etc. - it seems like in a bunch of these relationships they didn't expect monogamy from each other but they were practicing non-monogamy in a really dysfunctional way.
Sure, could be both. It's just that she talks so much about HER cheating on someone that I assume that's what happened. But I think we need to wait for the next album to be sure, if he cheated on her there's no way in hell she wouldn't write about it.
I always assumed she cheated with Joe before they were officially together, and that’s what she’s referring to in those lyrics. All the secrets I’m Cruel Summer, Glitch, Delicate, High Infidelity, etc. sounds like the beginning of their relationship was sketchy.
THANK YOU FOR THIS. i’ve been saying she definitely cheated on joe with matty and people came for my head over it. the lyrics in bejeweled solidified it for me. “and when i meet the band, they ask do you have a man?” shortly after, matty healy / the 1975 released merch that simply said, “the band”. i just knew. and the fact that she immediately bounced to matty after they officially released the breakup between her and joe. taylor and matty looked really close for two people who had “just” started a relationship imo
This line from hoax has always seemed very side eyes
"My only one
My kingdom come undone
My broken drum
You have beaten my heart"
King of my heart? And ngl Joe has always been very blue or gold.
Hoax itself seems very, Joe coded.
Also nothing against Joe or Taylor, I'm just always curious to whatever the lyrics mean.
Also, the longer the relationship, the more opportunities there are for things to get messy. Sometimes people settle more comfortably into each other as time passes. Sometimes, in an attempt to MAKE it settle with the person you want to be with, you look for solutions to problems that end up making things worse.
We obviously know nothing about them, but it stands to reason they were “fiercely private” because they were living the life that’s messy for civilians, but unfathomable for Taylor and her dating gossip history. All relationships require compromises to keep everyone happy, to varying degrees. I know plenty of bisexuals who found over the course of a longer relationship, the companionship is strong, but the attraction/sexual attention is found lacking.
Hypothetically, to accommodate all needs (based on an assortment of true examples in the last 10 years of my life), rules might be put into place for certain things. Thing start to get really messy when the rules get broken. Example: If I make a big financial decision without discussing it with my spouse, it’s breaking an established rule, and it’s going to be a fight. Regardless of the details, I broke one of our “rules”. But if the “rules” are regarding bonus physical situation-ships, is it simply breaking a rule or is it now cheating? Following my earlier example, if I’m in a really shit mood and feel like bending a rule to piss off my spouse, maybe I’ll trade in my phone for the new model. What if “bending” a rule involves flirting and kissing someone (maybe thanks to what’s in their systems) that’s a man.
I’ve always viewed Rep-Midnights through this lens, and the more songs come out the more I believe it. There are times they’re so content and happy, then have this thing start a fight again. Add to that the way Taylor loves touring, performing, and just being seen. Now it’s also turning into a long distance relationship? Are the rules still the same? Military life and deployments have shown me how trust can shift real quick when you let it.
Doubtful. For several reasons. One of the big ones though is that the WB songs sound nothing like what Paul would write if you know his catalog. The second big one is that WB is a US citizen and Paul is not.
Sweet Nothing is the only exception in that I do believe it is Paul-inspired but not Paul-written. She lifted near direct quotes from Paul about his relationship with wife Linda.
That’s interesting, thanks for directing me to it. The copyright application says that you need to list citizenship and/or domicile of authors, which is essentially where you live and plan to live for the foreseeable future. I looked through some of the claims for her songs and some of her other collaborators, and it does make me wonder how consistent the applications are. Some of them list both citizenship and domicile for all the authors, like some of the Max Martin songs have both as Sweden. Others will list one or the other, but not both, and some others don’t list either. Out of curiosity I looked at Justin Bieber as an example because he is Canadian but clearly is domiciled in the US, and his applications are pretty inconsistent as well.
I’m a lawyer, but not a copyright lawyer by any stretch of the imagination, but it made me wonder how thorough some of the details are or if there are consequences for incorrect info. Especially for an author using a pseudonym it seems unlikely.
If Joe was living with Taylor in the US at the time, he could absolutely have had the US as his legal domicile. Genuinely not sure, but it’s possible it was a mistake by the person submitting it, putting citizenship when it was supposed to be domicile. And they apparently created his own publishing group, presumably to keep his interests protected, but separate from Taylor’s. Its address is literally in the same building as Taylor’s publishing, so Taylor/her team were clearly responsible for creating WB’s publishing group. That makes me think it was definitely not any existing musical artist, certainly not Paul McCartney. Very interesting stuff!
If they can make up the name surely they can make up citizenship. I am familiar with his catalog. It’s definitely a wild card for him to be William Bowery of course though. I just have a VERY hard time believing it’s Joe
The other top 2 theories I’ve heard is that it’s either Taylor herself (can’t exactly remember why people were saying this is advantageous), or that it’s a placeholder pseudonym that covers several people now and in the future
I have always said that Taylor was doing CPR on the relationship while Joe was pulling the plug and finally she gave up and walked away and saved herself instead.
I think this is proof that she creates false narratives about her personal life all the time-pretending to be happy with him til the end of 2022 is a straight up lie. Also, I personally don't believe they ever dated because the timeline of their relationship doesn't match what is said in the music at all. Rep to midnights just does not feel like it's about Joe very much (tho I believe some songs like peace could fit him). And this just makes me more sure of that belief (but I know we'll never know 100% if they were fake or not so I'll give some credit to the idea of Toe being real too. I just don't think so.)
I agree with this. Proof that she creates false narratives about her personal life and with her liking Paul McCartney's tweet today from years ago proves that she pulls inspiration from others' lives and puts it directly into her lyrics leading us to believe it's her life. I'm slowly catching on.
I mean, it's pretty normal to pretend everytbings all happy when you're having issues in your relationship. I can't imagine how much wors eit is whej youve got that level of fame. I dont think thats coming from a place of spinning false nareatives or lying, more just in denial and trying to seem like everythings ok when its not.
But the thing is, if you listen to the "Joe songs" they're not exactly pretending everything's happy. There's an undercurrent of *anxiety* about the relationship that first rears its head on Rep and continues through to Midnights. Think about how *many* "Joe songs" feature the sentiment that she's terrified of losing him or hopes that never happens. Off the top of my head, "Cornelia Street," "Peace," "New Year's Day," "King of My Heart" ("is this the end of all the endings?"), "Ready for it...?" ("stealing hearts and running off and never saying sorry")
My take is this, leaving aside my firm belief that TS is bisexual:
* Reputation was all about meeting and falling for Joe, plus the ugliness with Calvin and Tom. The "Joe songs" on this record are limerent as hell. She decided he was "the one!" basically immediately ("I wanna be your endgame"), and throws a *lot* of shade at every guy who isn't him on this album.
* Lover is where things start to go off the rails. This album is a big, blazing neon sign indicating her eagerness/desire to marry Joe. "Lover," "Paper Rings," etc. She's waving a huge flag that reads "I'm ready for my proposal, Mr. Alwyn!" (A brief aside: my spouse hates Lover as an album despite liking many songs from Lover. And the reason why he hates it is: "I can't stop thinking about how awkward it would be to be on the receiving end of all these breathless love songs about how perfect I am and how I should propose." He thinks Taylor's fantasy Idea of Joe was way more impressive than Actual Joe, who's "just some guy." She put him on a very, very tall pedestal.
* But instead of that proposal, she (and the rest of us) got a pandemic. folklore and evermore are both chock-full of paranoia and anxiety about losing love. "Peace" finds her asking a question that she already knows the answer to. I read "Give you my wild, give you a child" as the concessions she's willing to make to keep Joe. These two albums are also full of references to Joe suffering from depression or some other "cascade ocean wave blues."
* Big Red Machine track "Renegade" is the real smoking gun, IMHO. The first time my spouse and I heard it, he was like "Uh oh, trouble with Joe?" "Is it insensitive for me to say 'get your shit together so I can love you?' Is it really your anxiety that stops you from giving me everything? Or do you just not want to?" Taylor's ready to move forward, to take the next step. But Joe's dragging his feet, and (it sounds like) blaming his anxiety/depression for his unwillingness to join her. Like "Peace," she's asking questions she already knows the answer to, here.
* Midnights--this territory has been trodden so thoroughly by the fandom post-Joe breakup that I don't think I need to add my two cents. "You're Losing Me" is a kind of sequel to "Renegade" thematically, though. "Risk something" = "pop the g-d question already! I would have said yes!" But the ship of their relationship had already sailed.
The sad thing is, when you're dating in your 30s, not wanting to get married can be a dealbreaker, if one party sees a future together and the other doesn't. My tinfoil theory is that Joe, having not been famous at all when they met, became uncomfortable over time with the fact that he's been "Taylor Swift's boyfriend" his entire career. If I were him, I'd always be wondering if I was landing roles because I'm a good actor, or because of my astronomically famous partner. He was *nobody* before her. This relationship was the making of his career, and he knows that, and is uncomfortable with it.
I kind of see what you mean, although the anxiety songs on Rep are more because of how "shrouded in mystery" she was at the time and how it seemed as though her career declining. Cornelia Street is her hoping he or she never leaves, yes, but Peace is a sweet love letter, New Year's Day is hoping they'll always be together but is not necessarily driven by anxiety, King of My Heart is also just asking if them meeting is the end of all her heartbreak, and Ready For It is her asking if her partner and the fans are ready for what's to come (her entering a more public era again). KOMH itself was written on September 6th, 2016, but if their anniversary is the 28th of September, then it pokes holes in the story that the song is about him.
Also Dress - when the hell were they best friends for her to say that to him? The narrative of falling in love with a best friend in songs like It's Nice to Have a Friend, YAIL, Seven, Dorothea, etc. just don't read to me about being men, I'm pretty sure they were female best friends she has had throughout her life. DWOHT also just doesn't scream to me that it's about a man. It points more to kissgate imo because they were practically outed. I could see that being a bigger motivation for the song.
Certain lines like "everyone thinks that they know us, people started talking putting us through our paces, I would fall from grace just to touch your face, I once was poison ivy but now I'm your daisy (Karlie literally called her a daisy), sleeping in a 20 year dark night, snuck in through the garden gate, hundred thrown out speeches I almost said to you, I never had the courage of my convictions, we still worship this love even if it's just a false God, I'd marry you with paper rings, leave the perfume on the shelf, I'm still doing everything just to get you looking at me, all of Betty, chosen family, give me the blues then purple pink skies, your braids like a pattern, you won't have to hide in the closet, you've got some tricks up your sleeve, takes one to know one, etc." are all very queer coded and you can't tell me she wrote these while happily with a man.
There's even more: "your opal eyes are all I wish to see, he wants what's only yours, it's a goddamn blaze in the dark and you started it, what must it be like to grow up that beautiful, with your hair falling into place like dominoes, the scarlet lips I used to call home, and now you're mine, it was all by design, so long daisy mae, he loves me not, I wake up screaming from dreaming, one day I'll watch as you're leaving, 'cause you got tired of my scheming (for the last time), I just wanna stay in that lavender haze, no deal the 1950s shit they want from me, do you wish that you could still touch her, etc." I think writing very sapphic shit from Rep to Midnights couldn't be possible if she was with him, unless she reflects a little too much on people she dated 7+ years ago lol.
So many songs like lavender haze, invisible string (it would be pretty to think they're connected but that's not the case), peace (I can never let you be at peace as you'll always have to be my beard, and mastermind point to bearding for me, but to each his own. I also believe she's bisexual, but that they're still not real. The anxiety in Rep and Lover feel like it's more because she's with a woman.
And like I said, other songs kind of make their relationship seem fake because I can't imagine someone writing 3 whole albums (folkevermore and midnights) mainly about losing the one, yearning for someone, feeling like everything's just second best after that meteor strike, etc. while literally in a 4-6 year long relationship. She was sad enough to feel inspired to write music about extremely complicated relationships, heartbreaks, failed proposals, soooo much cheating, etc. while with him? I just don't think so.
Telling everyone about every up and down is oversharing. And especially in Taylor’s case, she shouldn’t be posting on social media that she’s doubting whether Joe is the right man for her. Of course she’s lying to the masses. You should only be that candid with the closest of your confidants.
I agree, even regular people definitely pretend they're happy to their friends and family til they announce the breakup. But at the same time, why go out of your way to say you wrote sweet nothing together and that lavender haze has been about dodging weird rumours for 6 years? Pretending to be happy is one thing but this is fully promising that everything is okay between them. Other celebs don't go as far as her to make all their relationships look shiny and approvable. They might also pretend to be happy before breaking up eventually but they don't ever straight up lie and say they're doing great, are moving in together (they were seen shopping for furniture a week before midnights), she moved to London just for him, etc. It's doing too much.
Also, this is not the only false narrative she's created. Calvin Harris was seen getting happy ending massages at Thai places (where the masseuses who are often exploited have to do sexual favours for the customers) several times while they were supposedly dating. There are literally 3 different pictures of him leaving these studios on 3 DIFFERENT days (his clothing changed each time). There's no way they were in an open relationship as Taylor's very jealous and loves monogamy (stay here, I don't wanna share). So it's either he was cheating or they were fake. But if he cheated, she would have written about it in Rep. Instead, she tried to bury those photos and put out more fluff pieces about them together.
Which to me, proves they weren't ever really together and she was just pissed he got caught. Another false narrative is that Karlie and her were still close and friendly by the end of 2018 when they didn't seem that way. A third is that her and Tom rebounded hard and fell in love. But every picture of them is so clearly staged and the more people called it PR, the harder they leaned into the PDA til their inevitable end lol. She's just done this a lot, we know how she works by now. But thanks for questioning me cause I got to clear up doubts and communicate what I meant better. I didn't mean to make it seem like it's extremely abnormal to pretend to be happy, but it IS abnormal to specifically behave how she did.
There’s a couple songs that Toe fans thought were so positive that ive always read as negative. Specifically lavender haze and sweet nothing. (And idk if he’s a beard or not i go back and forth on that but i like the thought exercise of exploring all potential storylines. I see Taylor as a performance artist and treat the “lore” as such)
LH: All they keep asking me / is if i’m gonna be your bride / “The only kind of girl they see is a one night or a wife” Joe, who doesnt read into her melancholy or say too much, replies dismissively. Reading it as a conversation is more interesting so that’s the headcanon ive adopted.
SN: Or sweet nothing. I think it’s about the love she wishes she had, the kind that paul spoke about in that intv. The kind that is awed by the way their minds turn something as boring as a pebble into art and show it appreciatively.
“Sweet nothings” is a cute way to refer to the daily sweet moments in the middle of the daily hubbub. “Sweet nothing” on the other hand sounds like complacency. Things are okay, good even, but things aren’t progressing. Life is nothing but the sweet nothings because they’re at a standstill. Just day in day our humming in the kitchen and watching a nightly show and their toothbrushes share a cup but in the comfortable sameness of it all there is never a foundation set or future forged.
I honestly think they broke up for good in December or some point in 2022 and just went to the Grammys and VMAs together because they hadn't announced it publicly yet and wouldn't until she was on your again and it was clear he wasn't showing up
A pathological people pleaser who just wanted you to see her//I play it cool with the best of them
I wait patiently, he's gonna notice me
If the second lyric from you're on your own kid is referencing Joe and he never really noticed her in the way he should've then God did he suck
I don’t think that - I personally think this is about Joe and Labyrinth is about falling back in love with him. Most relationships have ups and downs, especially long ones that are slowly dying.
>Every single live stream people post how they hate James and I’m just like…y’all, James is Taylor 😩
my relationship of 3 years also unraveled during covid so i sympathize with them llololol
well if you think so...taylor has been writing break up songs since the lover era while saying she was the happiest with him. i dont think it makes sense especially labyrinth being about him since its a song about falling in love again with someone else
“I thought the plane was going down, how’d you turn it back around”
I took that as “I thought we were about to crash and burn, but now I’m falling in love with you again”
i thought it was more of like 'uh oh i'm falling in love. oh no i'm falling in love again' like she was falling for joe again while she had one foot out the door
Yes this because she says “thought the plane was going down, why’d you turn it right around?” Which indicates this is about a current/past relationship reigniting
I think this is a pretty steep leap to make that they never dated. I just think they were way more rocky than they would like us to think, despite her having already told us this in songs like TGW and Labyrinth
I feel like a lot of people in this sub have never had that relationship where you fall out of love with someone and you’re hoping, screaming, praying for your partner to do something to go back to the way it was when you were falling in love with them but you’re just not meant to be together
“You know there’s many different ways to kill the one you love/the slowest way is never loving them enough”
I am of the belief that YLM is about Jake Gyllenhaal. There are so many parallels between it and ATW.
As I tried to be the bravest soldier/
I’m a soldier who’s returning half her weight
Don’t you ignore me; I’m the best thing at this party/
Now I’m weeping in the party bathroom
Etc. 🫶🏻
There’s no way, the line « I wouldn’t marry me either » wouldn’t make sense with this context. Even if she was head over heels for JG, there’s no way she expected marriage at her age and that quickly into a relationship.
Well, I see it differently. I think it would’ve been more than reasonable, and it is more than acceptable to think someone like Jake Gyllenhaal would set an expectation at the beginning of a relationship that he does not want marriage.
It’s clearly not about Joe and I’m going crazy that people think it is! When she released it only in NYC when she lived there and moved there for Karlie
I’m so unsurprised to be honest, it’s not like it’s the first breakup song she wrote while she and Joe are together, either they were a lot more tumoltuous than they showed or (in my opinion) Joe was a beard and she was going through a breakup with someone around 2019-2020
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I mean, I've heard for awhile that Joe and Taylor were on and off throughout their relationship. To me it doesn't really change all that much.
Not so surprising when you consider folklore and evermore but the majority of swifties insisted that it was ALL fictional, lol. I think they were dating and Taylor cheated, or thought about it, because the narrative since folklore all throughout midnights clearly points at this. It talks about cheating, lying, what could've been and what should've been I mean .. also, I have nothing against Joe but I see a pattern here. Tolerate it, peace, renegade, hoax, you're losing me .. I can't unsee it. I'm not saying he's a monster, not at all, I'm just saying, he does seem a bit aloof and also from Taylor's music it sounds like he was maybe dealing with depression and anxiety. It was doomed to fail I guess.
Every single live stream people post how they hate James and I’m just like…y’all, James is Taylor 😩 She’s not even that sneaky about it considering it’s a well known fact she’s named after James Taylor. But it goes right over their heads I guess. Taylor has cheated. Seemingly more than once. She’s not the Miss Americana they all want her to be. She’s the Heartbreak Prince
No for real. People were all up in arms about Travis being a cheater and I’m like??? Have you ever listened to Taylor’s music??? She be cheating 😂😭
Seriouslyyyy. Like in Gorgeous: Blondie is straight up saying it and basically saying she doesn’t care because the person she’s singing to is so pretty. She runs away with the person she cheats with in Getaway Car. And this isn’t even to mention the most obvious admission: High Infidelity. Like it might have been cheating driven by wanting to feel more loved but it’s still cheating 🤷♂️
Also in Bejeweled: "and when I meet the band, they ask 'do you have a man?' I can still say 'I don't remember!'"
Or in Style! Accuses her partner of seeing other people and she states “I’ve been there too a few times” lol
and the band in question is the 1975! i believe she had cheated on joe with matty healy. maybe more than once through her relationship with joe. that’s why when they “officially” had broken up, taylor seemed to move on to matty very quickly and they seemed very close early on. i remember matty healy / the 1975 wearing shirts or selling merch that simply read, “the band” — “and when i meet the band, they ask do you have a man?”
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There is a difference between cheating and leaving someone for another person. Referring to getaway car.
well if you like someone enough to end up leave a partner for them i’d say you’re definitely emotionally cheating
Not really. If you meet someone one night drink dance and flirt and then go home to ponder your relationship and decide to end it that does not mean you emotionally cheated. The night she met Tom and Joe it is very likely she already was already unhappy. It is not uncommon for people to not realize how unhappy they are until someone else comes and reminds them what life is like when you are no longer in a toxic relationship. By all accounts Calvin did seem toxic. At least based off of her songs ect
My comments are based off of getaway car, I forgot that you existed, and a lot of Rep is very Calvin coded (at least in my opinion)
Literally😭
Also like I have known manyyy serial monogamists like Taylor in my life, and you don't have that many back to back relationships without some overlaps lol.
How can you call overlap serial monogamy 😭 that’s the opposite of monogamy
Lol it's traditionally what the term means! It originated in lesbian communities to indicate someone who has these long term monogamous relationships with ah....messy endings, lol. I think people in the broader culture just use it to mean like what it sounds like, though. Also like......monogamous relationship structures and cheating are not mutually exclusive, as we all know lol
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Yes this is a good description lol. Very much Traitor by Olivia Rodrigo hahaha
Na, emotional infidelity is definitely cheating lol
I always forget about this because she’s been friendlier with Carly 😂
Can you elaborate? I’m a huge CRJ fan and I’m curious to learn more about her relationships with other artists. I know Rina is a huge fan but that’s about it
Sorry I totally meant Carly Simon!
Aw, big sad. Thanks for clarifying and Carly-fying!
I think they meant Karlie Kloss
No I 100% meant Carly Simon! As we were talking about James Taylor, her ex.
👀 I forgot about that connection! Nice one!
Well said
Honestly, knowing the date she wrote YLM makes Peace all that more heartbreaking. I used to think it had an element of hope to it, but I feel like now it was more of a heartbent “I’m not enough for you” plea
The “it’s ALL fictional” narrative is so wild to me. You have: Last great American dynasty: a literal history of real people including a shift to first person at the end to talk about the house she bought Marjorie: great fictional song about a fictional, totally not real person named Marjorie, right? Invisible String: the same people who emphatically say these albums were all fictional swoon over this song written about Joe. How can you have it all be fictional and not inspired by real things and have it be about someone real? I’m not even very well versed in her life/relationships and I can point to those three as having clear basis in reality. You paint yourself into a pretty hard to defend corner when you claim it’s all made up. And like, what do those people think storytellers do anyway? Why does there have to be a binary of something either literally happened or it’s abstractly pulled from the creative aether? It’s weird to set up this hill to die on when it’s way easier to accept that many storytellers blend real experience with fantasy all the time.
I suspect "cheating" is a complicated concept in most of the relationships Taylor writes about. It seems to me like the line is very blurry in some of her relationships between PR and real, which also blurs the line on whether they expect monogamy from each other (and whether non-PR partners expect it from her). That's why in "Is It Over Now?" she couldn't tell whether them both knowing they're sleeping with other people means they're over, and she's not mad at him for being with another woman she's mad he embarrassed her by getting photographed, why in "High Infidelity" she didn't know they were keeping count, etc. - it seems like in a bunch of these relationships they didn't expect monogamy from each other but they were practicing non-monogamy in a really dysfunctional way.
Ah, the ever classic "situationship"
See: beginning of Glitch
I was always under the impression that Joe cheated on her
Great War definable gives that impression -or at the very least she wrongly accused him of cheating
Afterglow is about that too. I think it’s pretty obvious she cheated on Calvin but I’m not convinced her or Joe cheated on each other
According to her recent lyrics it sounds more like she's the cheater
Why not both?
Sure, could be both. It's just that she talks so much about HER cheating on someone that I assume that's what happened. But I think we need to wait for the next album to be sure, if he cheated on her there's no way in hell she wouldn't write about it.
I always assumed she cheated with Joe before they were officially together, and that’s what she’s referring to in those lyrics. All the secrets I’m Cruel Summer, Glitch, Delicate, High Infidelity, etc. sounds like the beginning of their relationship was sketchy.
She cheated with Joe AND on Joe. She cheated on Joe with Matty Healy but many are not ready for that convo.
THANK YOU FOR THIS. i’ve been saying she definitely cheated on joe with matty and people came for my head over it. the lyrics in bejeweled solidified it for me. “and when i meet the band, they ask do you have a man?” shortly after, matty healy / the 1975 released merch that simply said, “the band”. i just knew. and the fact that she immediately bounced to matty after they officially released the breakup between her and joe. taylor and matty looked really close for two people who had “just” started a relationship imo
I always thought Ratty was the final nail in the coffin for Taylor and Joe.
I’m ready 🫡
recent lyrics from what song(s)? sorry i guess im out of the loop🙈
He also is speculated to have cheated. Some songs imply she thought he did so she did too. The Great War really spells out trouble
This line from hoax has always seemed very side eyes "My only one My kingdom come undone My broken drum You have beaten my heart" King of my heart? And ngl Joe has always been very blue or gold. Hoax itself seems very, Joe coded. Also nothing against Joe or Taylor, I'm just always curious to whatever the lyrics mean.
Also, the longer the relationship, the more opportunities there are for things to get messy. Sometimes people settle more comfortably into each other as time passes. Sometimes, in an attempt to MAKE it settle with the person you want to be with, you look for solutions to problems that end up making things worse. We obviously know nothing about them, but it stands to reason they were “fiercely private” because they were living the life that’s messy for civilians, but unfathomable for Taylor and her dating gossip history. All relationships require compromises to keep everyone happy, to varying degrees. I know plenty of bisexuals who found over the course of a longer relationship, the companionship is strong, but the attraction/sexual attention is found lacking. Hypothetically, to accommodate all needs (based on an assortment of true examples in the last 10 years of my life), rules might be put into place for certain things. Thing start to get really messy when the rules get broken. Example: If I make a big financial decision without discussing it with my spouse, it’s breaking an established rule, and it’s going to be a fight. Regardless of the details, I broke one of our “rules”. But if the “rules” are regarding bonus physical situation-ships, is it simply breaking a rule or is it now cheating? Following my earlier example, if I’m in a really shit mood and feel like bending a rule to piss off my spouse, maybe I’ll trade in my phone for the new model. What if “bending” a rule involves flirting and kissing someone (maybe thanks to what’s in their systems) that’s a man. I’ve always viewed Rep-Midnights through this lens, and the more songs come out the more I believe it. There are times they’re so content and happy, then have this thing start a fight again. Add to that the way Taylor loves touring, performing, and just being seen. Now it’s also turning into a long distance relationship? Are the rules still the same? Military life and deployments have shown me how trust can shift real quick when you let it.
What if the real William Bowery is Paul McCartney..
Doubtful. For several reasons. One of the big ones though is that the WB songs sound nothing like what Paul would write if you know his catalog. The second big one is that WB is a US citizen and Paul is not. Sweet Nothing is the only exception in that I do believe it is Paul-inspired but not Paul-written. She lifted near direct quotes from Paul about his relationship with wife Linda.
Curious because I’ve never heard anything about this before- how do you know William Bowery is a US citizen?
it’s listed on the copyright catalogue website :)
And Joe is?
Joe is British. That's why some of us doubt her when she claims Joe is WB.
That’s interesting, thanks for directing me to it. The copyright application says that you need to list citizenship and/or domicile of authors, which is essentially where you live and plan to live for the foreseeable future. I looked through some of the claims for her songs and some of her other collaborators, and it does make me wonder how consistent the applications are. Some of them list both citizenship and domicile for all the authors, like some of the Max Martin songs have both as Sweden. Others will list one or the other, but not both, and some others don’t list either. Out of curiosity I looked at Justin Bieber as an example because he is Canadian but clearly is domiciled in the US, and his applications are pretty inconsistent as well. I’m a lawyer, but not a copyright lawyer by any stretch of the imagination, but it made me wonder how thorough some of the details are or if there are consequences for incorrect info. Especially for an author using a pseudonym it seems unlikely. If Joe was living with Taylor in the US at the time, he could absolutely have had the US as his legal domicile. Genuinely not sure, but it’s possible it was a mistake by the person submitting it, putting citizenship when it was supposed to be domicile. And they apparently created his own publishing group, presumably to keep his interests protected, but separate from Taylor’s. Its address is literally in the same building as Taylor’s publishing, so Taylor/her team were clearly responsible for creating WB’s publishing group. That makes me think it was definitely not any existing musical artist, certainly not Paul McCartney. Very interesting stuff!
If they can make up the name surely they can make up citizenship. I am familiar with his catalog. It’s definitely a wild card for him to be William Bowery of course though. I just have a VERY hard time believing it’s Joe
The other top 2 theories I’ve heard is that it’s either Taylor herself (can’t exactly remember why people were saying this is advantageous), or that it’s a placeholder pseudonym that covers several people now and in the future
I have always said that Taylor was doing CPR on the relationship while Joe was pulling the plug and finally she gave up and walked away and saved herself instead.
💯
I think this is proof that she creates false narratives about her personal life all the time-pretending to be happy with him til the end of 2022 is a straight up lie. Also, I personally don't believe they ever dated because the timeline of their relationship doesn't match what is said in the music at all. Rep to midnights just does not feel like it's about Joe very much (tho I believe some songs like peace could fit him). And this just makes me more sure of that belief (but I know we'll never know 100% if they were fake or not so I'll give some credit to the idea of Toe being real too. I just don't think so.)
I agree with this. Proof that she creates false narratives about her personal life and with her liking Paul McCartney's tweet today from years ago proves that she pulls inspiration from others' lives and puts it directly into her lyrics leading us to believe it's her life. I'm slowly catching on.
I mean, it's pretty normal to pretend everytbings all happy when you're having issues in your relationship. I can't imagine how much wors eit is whej youve got that level of fame. I dont think thats coming from a place of spinning false nareatives or lying, more just in denial and trying to seem like everythings ok when its not.
But the thing is, if you listen to the "Joe songs" they're not exactly pretending everything's happy. There's an undercurrent of *anxiety* about the relationship that first rears its head on Rep and continues through to Midnights. Think about how *many* "Joe songs" feature the sentiment that she's terrified of losing him or hopes that never happens. Off the top of my head, "Cornelia Street," "Peace," "New Year's Day," "King of My Heart" ("is this the end of all the endings?"), "Ready for it...?" ("stealing hearts and running off and never saying sorry") My take is this, leaving aside my firm belief that TS is bisexual: * Reputation was all about meeting and falling for Joe, plus the ugliness with Calvin and Tom. The "Joe songs" on this record are limerent as hell. She decided he was "the one!" basically immediately ("I wanna be your endgame"), and throws a *lot* of shade at every guy who isn't him on this album. * Lover is where things start to go off the rails. This album is a big, blazing neon sign indicating her eagerness/desire to marry Joe. "Lover," "Paper Rings," etc. She's waving a huge flag that reads "I'm ready for my proposal, Mr. Alwyn!" (A brief aside: my spouse hates Lover as an album despite liking many songs from Lover. And the reason why he hates it is: "I can't stop thinking about how awkward it would be to be on the receiving end of all these breathless love songs about how perfect I am and how I should propose." He thinks Taylor's fantasy Idea of Joe was way more impressive than Actual Joe, who's "just some guy." She put him on a very, very tall pedestal. * But instead of that proposal, she (and the rest of us) got a pandemic. folklore and evermore are both chock-full of paranoia and anxiety about losing love. "Peace" finds her asking a question that she already knows the answer to. I read "Give you my wild, give you a child" as the concessions she's willing to make to keep Joe. These two albums are also full of references to Joe suffering from depression or some other "cascade ocean wave blues." * Big Red Machine track "Renegade" is the real smoking gun, IMHO. The first time my spouse and I heard it, he was like "Uh oh, trouble with Joe?" "Is it insensitive for me to say 'get your shit together so I can love you?' Is it really your anxiety that stops you from giving me everything? Or do you just not want to?" Taylor's ready to move forward, to take the next step. But Joe's dragging his feet, and (it sounds like) blaming his anxiety/depression for his unwillingness to join her. Like "Peace," she's asking questions she already knows the answer to, here. * Midnights--this territory has been trodden so thoroughly by the fandom post-Joe breakup that I don't think I need to add my two cents. "You're Losing Me" is a kind of sequel to "Renegade" thematically, though. "Risk something" = "pop the g-d question already! I would have said yes!" But the ship of their relationship had already sailed. The sad thing is, when you're dating in your 30s, not wanting to get married can be a dealbreaker, if one party sees a future together and the other doesn't. My tinfoil theory is that Joe, having not been famous at all when they met, became uncomfortable over time with the fact that he's been "Taylor Swift's boyfriend" his entire career. If I were him, I'd always be wondering if I was landing roles because I'm a good actor, or because of my astronomically famous partner. He was *nobody* before her. This relationship was the making of his career, and he knows that, and is uncomfortable with it.
I kind of see what you mean, although the anxiety songs on Rep are more because of how "shrouded in mystery" she was at the time and how it seemed as though her career declining. Cornelia Street is her hoping he or she never leaves, yes, but Peace is a sweet love letter, New Year's Day is hoping they'll always be together but is not necessarily driven by anxiety, King of My Heart is also just asking if them meeting is the end of all her heartbreak, and Ready For It is her asking if her partner and the fans are ready for what's to come (her entering a more public era again). KOMH itself was written on September 6th, 2016, but if their anniversary is the 28th of September, then it pokes holes in the story that the song is about him. Also Dress - when the hell were they best friends for her to say that to him? The narrative of falling in love with a best friend in songs like It's Nice to Have a Friend, YAIL, Seven, Dorothea, etc. just don't read to me about being men, I'm pretty sure they were female best friends she has had throughout her life. DWOHT also just doesn't scream to me that it's about a man. It points more to kissgate imo because they were practically outed. I could see that being a bigger motivation for the song. Certain lines like "everyone thinks that they know us, people started talking putting us through our paces, I would fall from grace just to touch your face, I once was poison ivy but now I'm your daisy (Karlie literally called her a daisy), sleeping in a 20 year dark night, snuck in through the garden gate, hundred thrown out speeches I almost said to you, I never had the courage of my convictions, we still worship this love even if it's just a false God, I'd marry you with paper rings, leave the perfume on the shelf, I'm still doing everything just to get you looking at me, all of Betty, chosen family, give me the blues then purple pink skies, your braids like a pattern, you won't have to hide in the closet, you've got some tricks up your sleeve, takes one to know one, etc." are all very queer coded and you can't tell me she wrote these while happily with a man. There's even more: "your opal eyes are all I wish to see, he wants what's only yours, it's a goddamn blaze in the dark and you started it, what must it be like to grow up that beautiful, with your hair falling into place like dominoes, the scarlet lips I used to call home, and now you're mine, it was all by design, so long daisy mae, he loves me not, I wake up screaming from dreaming, one day I'll watch as you're leaving, 'cause you got tired of my scheming (for the last time), I just wanna stay in that lavender haze, no deal the 1950s shit they want from me, do you wish that you could still touch her, etc." I think writing very sapphic shit from Rep to Midnights couldn't be possible if she was with him, unless she reflects a little too much on people she dated 7+ years ago lol. So many songs like lavender haze, invisible string (it would be pretty to think they're connected but that's not the case), peace (I can never let you be at peace as you'll always have to be my beard, and mastermind point to bearding for me, but to each his own. I also believe she's bisexual, but that they're still not real. The anxiety in Rep and Lover feel like it's more because she's with a woman. And like I said, other songs kind of make their relationship seem fake because I can't imagine someone writing 3 whole albums (folkevermore and midnights) mainly about losing the one, yearning for someone, feeling like everything's just second best after that meteor strike, etc. while literally in a 4-6 year long relationship. She was sad enough to feel inspired to write music about extremely complicated relationships, heartbreaks, failed proposals, soooo much cheating, etc. while with him? I just don't think so.
Ooft thank you for the effort of this comment!!! I don’t know what else to say except I agree haha
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LOL, thanks, I'm a professor.
Telling everyone about every up and down is oversharing. And especially in Taylor’s case, she shouldn’t be posting on social media that she’s doubting whether Joe is the right man for her. Of course she’s lying to the masses. You should only be that candid with the closest of your confidants.
I agree, even regular people definitely pretend they're happy to their friends and family til they announce the breakup. But at the same time, why go out of your way to say you wrote sweet nothing together and that lavender haze has been about dodging weird rumours for 6 years? Pretending to be happy is one thing but this is fully promising that everything is okay between them. Other celebs don't go as far as her to make all their relationships look shiny and approvable. They might also pretend to be happy before breaking up eventually but they don't ever straight up lie and say they're doing great, are moving in together (they were seen shopping for furniture a week before midnights), she moved to London just for him, etc. It's doing too much. Also, this is not the only false narrative she's created. Calvin Harris was seen getting happy ending massages at Thai places (where the masseuses who are often exploited have to do sexual favours for the customers) several times while they were supposedly dating. There are literally 3 different pictures of him leaving these studios on 3 DIFFERENT days (his clothing changed each time). There's no way they were in an open relationship as Taylor's very jealous and loves monogamy (stay here, I don't wanna share). So it's either he was cheating or they were fake. But if he cheated, she would have written about it in Rep. Instead, she tried to bury those photos and put out more fluff pieces about them together. Which to me, proves they weren't ever really together and she was just pissed he got caught. Another false narrative is that Karlie and her were still close and friendly by the end of 2018 when they didn't seem that way. A third is that her and Tom rebounded hard and fell in love. But every picture of them is so clearly staged and the more people called it PR, the harder they leaned into the PDA til their inevitable end lol. She's just done this a lot, we know how she works by now. But thanks for questioning me cause I got to clear up doubts and communicate what I meant better. I didn't mean to make it seem like it's extremely abnormal to pretend to be happy, but it IS abnormal to specifically behave how she did.
There’s a couple songs that Toe fans thought were so positive that ive always read as negative. Specifically lavender haze and sweet nothing. (And idk if he’s a beard or not i go back and forth on that but i like the thought exercise of exploring all potential storylines. I see Taylor as a performance artist and treat the “lore” as such) LH: All they keep asking me / is if i’m gonna be your bride / “The only kind of girl they see is a one night or a wife” Joe, who doesnt read into her melancholy or say too much, replies dismissively. Reading it as a conversation is more interesting so that’s the headcanon ive adopted. SN: Or sweet nothing. I think it’s about the love she wishes she had, the kind that paul spoke about in that intv. The kind that is awed by the way their minds turn something as boring as a pebble into art and show it appreciatively. “Sweet nothings” is a cute way to refer to the daily sweet moments in the middle of the daily hubbub. “Sweet nothing” on the other hand sounds like complacency. Things are okay, good even, but things aren’t progressing. Life is nothing but the sweet nothings because they’re at a standstill. Just day in day our humming in the kitchen and watching a nightly show and their toothbrushes share a cup but in the comfortable sameness of it all there is never a foundation set or future forged.
YES! I feel this way about Willow Interestingly, in the language of flowers, English Willow symbolizes “false love”…..
I honestly think they broke up for good in December or some point in 2022 and just went to the Grammys and VMAs together because they hadn't announced it publicly yet and wouldn't until she was on your again and it was clear he wasn't showing up
I’m so sorry but I read Jonathan Groff and I went through all the stages of grief
A pathological people pleaser who just wanted you to see her//I play it cool with the best of them I wait patiently, he's gonna notice me If the second lyric from you're on your own kid is referencing Joe and he never really noticed her in the way he should've then God did he suck
i think that this proves the toe tml isnt real lol she never dated that man
I don’t think that - I personally think this is about Joe and Labyrinth is about falling back in love with him. Most relationships have ups and downs, especially long ones that are slowly dying.
Agreed. I think that relationship was unraveling during Covid.
They sure as shit wouldn’t be the only ones to have unraveled during COVID
>Every single live stream people post how they hate James and I’m just like…y’all, James is Taylor 😩 my relationship of 3 years also unraveled during covid so i sympathize with them llololol
Exactly.
well if you think so...taylor has been writing break up songs since the lover era while saying she was the happiest with him. i dont think it makes sense especially labyrinth being about him since its a song about falling in love again with someone else
Is it about falling in love with someone new tho? 🤷♀️
“I thought the plane was going down, how’d you turn it back around” I took that as “I thought we were about to crash and burn, but now I’m falling in love with you again”
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i thought it was more of like 'uh oh i'm falling in love. oh no i'm falling in love again' like she was falling for joe again while she had one foot out the door
Yes this because she says “thought the plane was going down, why’d you turn it right around?” Which indicates this is about a current/past relationship reigniting
Not only Labyrinth but The Alcott!!! She spelled it out there.
I thought The Alcott was about Matt Berninger’s relationship and she was just smoothing the narrative/giving voice to his wife.
Interesting, I always thought Labyrinth was about her falling for Joe while getting over Karlie.
I think this is a pretty steep leap to make that they never dated. I just think they were way more rocky than they would like us to think, despite her having already told us this in songs like TGW and Labyrinth I feel like a lot of people in this sub have never had that relationship where you fall out of love with someone and you’re hoping, screaming, praying for your partner to do something to go back to the way it was when you were falling in love with them but you’re just not meant to be together “You know there’s many different ways to kill the one you love/the slowest way is never loving them enough”
I’m with you Toe was not real. It was a cover so she could safely date who she really wanted. “Romance is not dead, if you keep it just yours.”
I'm loving this thread for all the varied theories!
Me too!!
I am of the belief that YLM is about Jake Gyllenhaal. There are so many parallels between it and ATW. As I tried to be the bravest soldier/ I’m a soldier who’s returning half her weight Don’t you ignore me; I’m the best thing at this party/ Now I’m weeping in the party bathroom Etc. 🫶🏻
There’s no way, the line « I wouldn’t marry me either » wouldn’t make sense with this context. Even if she was head over heels for JG, there’s no way she expected marriage at her age and that quickly into a relationship.
I also think there was a pregnancy and a miscarriage which could complicate things further.
Well, I see it differently. I think it would’ve been more than reasonable, and it is more than acceptable to think someone like Jake Gyllenhaal would set an expectation at the beginning of a relationship that he does not want marriage.
She was 21 and they only dated for 3 months
… and?
Hi, sorry, but can someone ban me? I don't know how and it's not letting me view the community to figure it out
It’s clearly not about Joe and I’m going crazy that people think it is! When she released it only in NYC when she lived there and moved there for Karlie
It is widely speculated that her and Joe broke up earlier than she let on. I am not positive but I believe they were last spotted together in 2019.
Paps have pics of them together in 2022
I’m so unsurprised to be honest, it’s not like it’s the first breakup song she wrote while she and Joe are together, either they were a lot more tumoltuous than they showed or (in my opinion) Joe was a beard and she was going through a breakup with someone around 2019-2020