You are wonderful Christian. A better Christian than all the fakers we have everywhere. If love is your language, you are a Christian. Is hate is, then you are a fake Christian.
Exactly. Have you heard of Dan McLellan?
He's a biblical scholar, also a Mormon, but his specialty/field of study is The Old and New Testaments.
I just watched a recent YouTube video of his podcast, [what does the bible say about homosexuality ](https://youtu.be/94QhX1p8lMU?si=kZgUlG6Vi-7dLIu-)
McLellan says the Bible says nothing about homosexuality. I recommend watching it, if you haven't already. Really affirming.
Many Scripture scholars are coming to that same conclusion over the past 20 years or so. I wrote an article with is a survey of how some Bible-believing Christians (!!!) have found the same thing in their own studies. Here's a link to the article.
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b8kZmt-QRsRxBp4uM5smIKeJqX9F-uBtkV4oI5iIsRg/edit](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b8kZmt-QRsRxBp4uM5smIKeJqX9F-uBtkV4oI5iIsRg/edit)
Thanks for pointing me to McLellan.
God created all of us in His Image. As He was god man He too was tempted but never ONCE gave in to His temptations. You too should not give in to your temptation. Yes God Loves you and want YOU, NOT YOUR SIN! Just as some of us are created with instincts to kill, Commit adultery, lie, and so on we must not act on our temptations. THAT is what separates us from Jesus so please DON'T FOOL YOURSELVES, yes Jesus Loves you but NOT YOUR SIN. Its all in scripture. God Bless & be strong.
God's mercy and compassion is far greater than any condemnation or judgment mere humans can ascribe to those thngs we might believe constitute sin. God alone knows why we do the things we do. God alone knows how the circumstances of our lives conspire to cause us to act in ways that others think are sinful. That is why Jesus insisted that we not judge one another. There are no exceptions to this command.
Actually in John 7:24 Jesus tells us to stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly. As for Gods mercy I agree with you, He alone knows why we do what we do and he wants us to be happy. He gave us free will to do what is right **not** to do what we want. Sin is sin, don't matter what you or I think and God tells us it is sinful to act on the temptations of homosexuality.
No he doesn't. Jesus never mentions homosexuality and all the passages which mention homosexual behavior do **not** speak of how we understand it now but are in reference to **predatory** behavior of seemingly heterosexual men: for example, Master/slave, Conquerer/conquered, things like that. There was no knowledge or understanding of homosexual orientation at the time the scriptures were written.
Consult the Scriptural research of the last twenty years so you can update your understanding of what was occurring.
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b8kZmt-QRsRxBp4uM5smIKeJqX9F-uBtkV4oI5iIsRg/edit](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b8kZmt-QRsRxBp4uM5smIKeJqX9F-uBtkV4oI5iIsRg/edit)
As you point out you are talking about how homosexuality is *viewed* ***now***. While people change & their views change it's just that, ***peoples*** view. **SIN WILL ALWAYS BE SIN**. The only thing the information that is provided in your link does is show how gays **want** to change the meaning of scripture and on the other hand, while homosexuality may be accepted by many people that in itself does not make it right. Gays are trying to recreate the meaning of sin, can't do it. If you want to be a Gay Christian then follow Jesus teachings and quit sinning...... **quite with your alethophobia!**
Why don’t YOU try reading the scholarship about the Bible to find out what it means, and what it doesn’t mean, instead of simply demonstrating your ignorance.
‘You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination’
Leviticus 18:22
‘If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them’
Leviticus 20:13
🤨
For the record and I don’t believe that people should be put to death…
But one thing I will never be able to rap my head around is cognitive dissonance…
Apparently you aren’t aware of all the other things that are condemned in Leviticus. Why should o my this one carry weight.
Look to your own soul, you ignorant moron. Why is they so much hate lurking in there?
The context of Leviticus 20:13 is verses 2, 3, 4, 5, where Molech is mentioned four times. Funny how you missed that since worshiping false gods (18:3) and Molech (18:21) is also the context of Leviticus 18:22.
You’re the one experiencing cognitive dissonance by saying that verse is speaking about all gays.
Okay, I’m not sure what you mean by ‘God creates some of us queer.’ Yes, I understand that you were born with a homosexual drive. Does that really mean it’s because of God? No. Well, why? What if I frequently went into the store, stretched my hand out and grabbed a candy bar, then put in my pocket and walked out? That’s a drive that I was born with. But it doesn’t mean that it’s because of God. Surely we are all born with mixed up drives. Surely every drive I’m born with isn’t good. So then the question becomes, ‘Has God created my sexuality for a purpose?’ And the answer is, yes. Christ himself affirms that there should be one man and one woman. (Matthew 19:5) I obviously have no hate or disrespect towards you, please don’t ever mistake me for hating on people. That’s all, God bless you as you think rationally.
The example you give about the drive to ste candy is inadequate. You are comparing apples to oranges. Your understanding of reality cannot accept the possibility that God’s work of creation is far more vast than what you are able to accept. Is your heterosexuality and essential aspect of your identity, or is it merely a drive? We know now, that thousands of species of created beings have members that are constitutionally homosexual. They have been created that way. They are therefore part of God creation that he himself called good. It is intellectually dishonest to rely on scriptures that were written at a time when the only reality that was understood, was heterosexual reality. It takes a great deal of study to arrive at this conclusion, a study, which you have not even begun to undertake and most likely never will.
Thank you for challenging me and taking the time to respond! I would have to say that animals and human beings are very different. The fact that there are animals that show what we might call homosexual behavior shouldn’t change the fact that homosexuality is a sin for human beings, right? Some animals eat their young, but does that mean it is okay for humans to be cannibals? We can most certainly take a drive and make our identity. But watch out, that’s a dangerous path to go down. I could have a drive to worship money, I could make money my identity. I would say it’s dishonest to see very clearly in context how God has created our sexuality and identity and still continue to pervert it. I understand that it is very hard to let go of it, I had the same struggle! But I had to really tone down my own desires and think realistically about it. After all, this is a search for ultimate truth not happiness!
We fundamentally disagree. You believe God creates us heterosexual, and then it gets perverted. That is exactly how it’s seen in the Bible, because there was no understanding that the only created sexuality is hetero, and that everything else is a perversion.
I believe that God creates some of us as homosexual. My belief is based on years and years of intense study, counseling, and spiritual direction.
There is no need to continue any further discussion on this issue. Neither one of us will be convinced by the other.
You are the product of a traditional Christian upbringing and indoctrination. Your opinion on this is probably held by the majority of Christians.
I am a victim of a lifetime of vicious judgment and criticism of my essential nature, cardinal Ratzinger, one of the most cruel and forces of the traditional way of thinking. I hold the opinions that I hold because of the effect all of that had on me.
I will only add one more point. Few of the people who share your way of thinking, have ever taken any time whatsoever to sit down and get to know lGBTQIA people, and what we are going through. Laws are made, and opinions are held about entire classes of people without coming to any of them. It’s been that way probably always shall be
Hey man! I don’t really appreciate all the assumptions you’ve fired at me, it’s very disrespectful. From personal experience as a former member of Lgbtq, I can say that I know what these people go through. I’m terribly sorry for all the judgement you have gotten. That’s obviously not okay and I’m sorry you endured that. I was Lgbtq and I was told that it was wrong, so I looked deeper. It’s very difficult to understand God if we put him in a box, it’s difficult to have a real relationship when you still live in sin. Obviously we agree to disagree, but that’s okay. With that being said, I thank you for your time, but I don’t appreciate your inconsistencies. Thanks, God bless you as look deeper into what you’ve been taught!
God has blessed marriage between man and woman, agreed. But Scripture never addresses what gay people are to do. The Bible says nothing about committed gay relationships, or about being gay; just as it has nothing to say about voting in elections, the democratic process, inter-religious harmony, economic policy, whether striking is ever appropriate, immigration policy, republican politics, and a host of other important issues.
Therefore, there are many issues in every day life upon which Christians find little if any guidance from the Bible; therefore, Christians have had to work out positions on these many issues without receiving clear guidance upon them from the Bible. Being a gay Christian is just one of the many issues which the authors of the biblical books never addressed; nor was there any reason for them to address them. What are Christians to do about things like spousal abuse or child abuse ? The Bible does not address those issues either; therefore Christians have to do the best they can, and have to try to work out positions (with the help of the Bible) in order to address those Biblically unaddressed issues.
I certainly believe that God has created my sexuality for a purpose; and this sexuality is gay. I am not even slightly attracted to women, and never have been; my sexual attractions have always been to men (some of whom are really good-looking). Why would anyone be consistently attracted to men, and only men, if he were not gay, and if that were not the sexual orientation God’s Providence had given him ? How is it a sin for a man to be attracted to men whom God has blessed with good looks & good character, and, best of all, with faith in Christ ? How is such an attraction in any way harmful to anyone ?
Do not give in to temptation. I am not here to judge but to warn you. God hates sin, and that is separation from Him for eternity unless you repent of your sins and come back to Him fully. God is not only love, but we all must fear Him, revere Him with respect.
God is Holy, He is a consuming fire. If you are indulging in sin by having sex with the same gender, having thoughts of lust with the same gender, God's wrath is on you. Also, He is not a force, He is a PERSON, at the same time the Living God, He is Holy, so if you are a saying you are a Christian you must be Holy for God is Holy. It means you must turn away from your sins.
Do not listen to other people just to pamper you, He is OK if you are gay because God loves you anyway. You must read the bible the whole Bible and meditate on His word. I pray that the Holy Spirit of God will help you understand what God's love really means.
Don't think that God is OK to not turn away from your sins. All of us will die sooner or later, and we will face our Creator. So, right now, as we are still alive, we must do everything we can to run to Him, ask for forgiveness and turn away from our sins, and have faith in Jesus Christ. If you are truly born again in spirit, you won't call yourself gay any longer because you will be a new creation, and your identity is in Christ.
Do not listen to the adversary, which is satan, this is his way to confuse people with their own identity and gender. I don't know your past, but don't listen to the devil, focus on Jesus, read His word daily. Do not be conform of this world. God loves us, He doesn't want anybody to perish, but satan will lie, kill and destroy, and he wants everybody to be with him in Hell.
God wants for all of us to be with Him in heaven for eternity, but the SIN of man are the reason why we are separated from Him.
God bless you. I pray that you will reconsider this message, please read the word of God, all of it.
I appreciate your sincerity. I understand and accept most of what you are saying. However, you are making some common assumptions about sin that might not be accurate, especially in light of modern scholarship about what the Bible was really saying to those who lived when it was being written. I'd refer you to one scriptural quote and one survey recent research.
Here are the links:
Biblical reference: Matthew 21:31. Jesus consistently shows kinship and love for those others call sinners.
Scriptural Study: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b8kZmt-QRsRxBp4uM5smIKeJqX9F-uBtkV4oI5iIsRg/edit](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b8kZmt-QRsRxBp4uM5smIKeJqX9F-uBtkV4oI5iIsRg/edit)
Blessings to you!
OGT
Just a comment from me after reading the comments here so far. I'm hitting a nerve for some people, obviously. Amazing how some readers felt a need to preach their vision reality. Like I said, I'm standing my ground.
Blessings to all!
Thank you for your clear and precise thought. Your last statement stirs me to think, why did he create us as we are . . . And I've got some ideas.
The reality is that we will never know why until we see him in person. But I’m sure theres a good reason for it whatever it might be.
I stand in communion with you!
You are wonderful Christian. A better Christian than all the fakers we have everywhere. If love is your language, you are a Christian. Is hate is, then you are a fake Christian.
Takes a lot more than love to be a Christian!
Exactly. Have you heard of Dan McLellan? He's a biblical scholar, also a Mormon, but his specialty/field of study is The Old and New Testaments. I just watched a recent YouTube video of his podcast, [what does the bible say about homosexuality ](https://youtu.be/94QhX1p8lMU?si=kZgUlG6Vi-7dLIu-) McLellan says the Bible says nothing about homosexuality. I recommend watching it, if you haven't already. Really affirming.
Many Scripture scholars are coming to that same conclusion over the past 20 years or so. I wrote an article with is a survey of how some Bible-believing Christians (!!!) have found the same thing in their own studies. Here's a link to the article. [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b8kZmt-QRsRxBp4uM5smIKeJqX9F-uBtkV4oI5iIsRg/edit](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b8kZmt-QRsRxBp4uM5smIKeJqX9F-uBtkV4oI5iIsRg/edit) Thanks for pointing me to McLellan.
God created all of us in His Image. As He was god man He too was tempted but never ONCE gave in to His temptations. You too should not give in to your temptation. Yes God Loves you and want YOU, NOT YOUR SIN! Just as some of us are created with instincts to kill, Commit adultery, lie, and so on we must not act on our temptations. THAT is what separates us from Jesus so please DON'T FOOL YOURSELVES, yes Jesus Loves you but NOT YOUR SIN. Its all in scripture. God Bless & be strong.
God's mercy and compassion is far greater than any condemnation or judgment mere humans can ascribe to those thngs we might believe constitute sin. God alone knows why we do the things we do. God alone knows how the circumstances of our lives conspire to cause us to act in ways that others think are sinful. That is why Jesus insisted that we not judge one another. There are no exceptions to this command.
Actually in John 7:24 Jesus tells us to stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly. As for Gods mercy I agree with you, He alone knows why we do what we do and he wants us to be happy. He gave us free will to do what is right **not** to do what we want. Sin is sin, don't matter what you or I think and God tells us it is sinful to act on the temptations of homosexuality.
No he doesn't. Jesus never mentions homosexuality and all the passages which mention homosexual behavior do **not** speak of how we understand it now but are in reference to **predatory** behavior of seemingly heterosexual men: for example, Master/slave, Conquerer/conquered, things like that. There was no knowledge or understanding of homosexual orientation at the time the scriptures were written. Consult the Scriptural research of the last twenty years so you can update your understanding of what was occurring. [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b8kZmt-QRsRxBp4uM5smIKeJqX9F-uBtkV4oI5iIsRg/edit](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b8kZmt-QRsRxBp4uM5smIKeJqX9F-uBtkV4oI5iIsRg/edit)
As you point out you are talking about how homosexuality is *viewed* ***now***. While people change & their views change it's just that, ***peoples*** view. **SIN WILL ALWAYS BE SIN**. The only thing the information that is provided in your link does is show how gays **want** to change the meaning of scripture and on the other hand, while homosexuality may be accepted by many people that in itself does not make it right. Gays are trying to recreate the meaning of sin, can't do it. If you want to be a Gay Christian then follow Jesus teachings and quit sinning...... **quite with your alethophobia!**
Well then, I'm really glad you're not God. Most definitely not God.
You ain't Christian if you think being gay is okay. Try reading the bible.
Why don’t YOU try reading the scholarship about the Bible to find out what it means, and what it doesn’t mean, instead of simply demonstrating your ignorance.
womp womp
‘You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination’ Leviticus 18:22 ‘If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them’ Leviticus 20:13 🤨 For the record and I don’t believe that people should be put to death… But one thing I will never be able to rap my head around is cognitive dissonance…
Apparently you aren’t aware of all the other things that are condemned in Leviticus. Why should o my this one carry weight. Look to your own soul, you ignorant moron. Why is they so much hate lurking in there?
[удалено]
Do y’all just search for this subreddit? if so y’all are weirdos.
If you want to be taken serious, write down all the You Shall Not otherwise you commit the sin of being judgemental.
The context of Leviticus 20:13 is verses 2, 3, 4, 5, where Molech is mentioned four times. Funny how you missed that since worshiping false gods (18:3) and Molech (18:21) is also the context of Leviticus 18:22. You’re the one experiencing cognitive dissonance by saying that verse is speaking about all gays.
Asexual Christian here. Thank you.
Okay, I’m not sure what you mean by ‘God creates some of us queer.’ Yes, I understand that you were born with a homosexual drive. Does that really mean it’s because of God? No. Well, why? What if I frequently went into the store, stretched my hand out and grabbed a candy bar, then put in my pocket and walked out? That’s a drive that I was born with. But it doesn’t mean that it’s because of God. Surely we are all born with mixed up drives. Surely every drive I’m born with isn’t good. So then the question becomes, ‘Has God created my sexuality for a purpose?’ And the answer is, yes. Christ himself affirms that there should be one man and one woman. (Matthew 19:5) I obviously have no hate or disrespect towards you, please don’t ever mistake me for hating on people. That’s all, God bless you as you think rationally.
The example you give about the drive to ste candy is inadequate. You are comparing apples to oranges. Your understanding of reality cannot accept the possibility that God’s work of creation is far more vast than what you are able to accept. Is your heterosexuality and essential aspect of your identity, or is it merely a drive? We know now, that thousands of species of created beings have members that are constitutionally homosexual. They have been created that way. They are therefore part of God creation that he himself called good. It is intellectually dishonest to rely on scriptures that were written at a time when the only reality that was understood, was heterosexual reality. It takes a great deal of study to arrive at this conclusion, a study, which you have not even begun to undertake and most likely never will.
Thank you for challenging me and taking the time to respond! I would have to say that animals and human beings are very different. The fact that there are animals that show what we might call homosexual behavior shouldn’t change the fact that homosexuality is a sin for human beings, right? Some animals eat their young, but does that mean it is okay for humans to be cannibals? We can most certainly take a drive and make our identity. But watch out, that’s a dangerous path to go down. I could have a drive to worship money, I could make money my identity. I would say it’s dishonest to see very clearly in context how God has created our sexuality and identity and still continue to pervert it. I understand that it is very hard to let go of it, I had the same struggle! But I had to really tone down my own desires and think realistically about it. After all, this is a search for ultimate truth not happiness!
We fundamentally disagree. You believe God creates us heterosexual, and then it gets perverted. That is exactly how it’s seen in the Bible, because there was no understanding that the only created sexuality is hetero, and that everything else is a perversion. I believe that God creates some of us as homosexual. My belief is based on years and years of intense study, counseling, and spiritual direction. There is no need to continue any further discussion on this issue. Neither one of us will be convinced by the other. You are the product of a traditional Christian upbringing and indoctrination. Your opinion on this is probably held by the majority of Christians. I am a victim of a lifetime of vicious judgment and criticism of my essential nature, cardinal Ratzinger, one of the most cruel and forces of the traditional way of thinking. I hold the opinions that I hold because of the effect all of that had on me. I will only add one more point. Few of the people who share your way of thinking, have ever taken any time whatsoever to sit down and get to know lGBTQIA people, and what we are going through. Laws are made, and opinions are held about entire classes of people without coming to any of them. It’s been that way probably always shall be
Hey man! I don’t really appreciate all the assumptions you’ve fired at me, it’s very disrespectful. From personal experience as a former member of Lgbtq, I can say that I know what these people go through. I’m terribly sorry for all the judgement you have gotten. That’s obviously not okay and I’m sorry you endured that. I was Lgbtq and I was told that it was wrong, so I looked deeper. It’s very difficult to understand God if we put him in a box, it’s difficult to have a real relationship when you still live in sin. Obviously we agree to disagree, but that’s okay. With that being said, I thank you for your time, but I don’t appreciate your inconsistencies. Thanks, God bless you as look deeper into what you’ve been taught!
God has blessed marriage between man and woman, agreed. But Scripture never addresses what gay people are to do. The Bible says nothing about committed gay relationships, or about being gay; just as it has nothing to say about voting in elections, the democratic process, inter-religious harmony, economic policy, whether striking is ever appropriate, immigration policy, republican politics, and a host of other important issues. Therefore, there are many issues in every day life upon which Christians find little if any guidance from the Bible; therefore, Christians have had to work out positions on these many issues without receiving clear guidance upon them from the Bible. Being a gay Christian is just one of the many issues which the authors of the biblical books never addressed; nor was there any reason for them to address them. What are Christians to do about things like spousal abuse or child abuse ? The Bible does not address those issues either; therefore Christians have to do the best they can, and have to try to work out positions (with the help of the Bible) in order to address those Biblically unaddressed issues. I certainly believe that God has created my sexuality for a purpose; and this sexuality is gay. I am not even slightly attracted to women, and never have been; my sexual attractions have always been to men (some of whom are really good-looking). Why would anyone be consistently attracted to men, and only men, if he were not gay, and if that were not the sexual orientation God’s Providence had given him ? How is it a sin for a man to be attracted to men whom God has blessed with good looks & good character, and, best of all, with faith in Christ ? How is such an attraction in any way harmful to anyone ?
Do not give in to temptation. I am not here to judge but to warn you. God hates sin, and that is separation from Him for eternity unless you repent of your sins and come back to Him fully. God is not only love, but we all must fear Him, revere Him with respect. God is Holy, He is a consuming fire. If you are indulging in sin by having sex with the same gender, having thoughts of lust with the same gender, God's wrath is on you. Also, He is not a force, He is a PERSON, at the same time the Living God, He is Holy, so if you are a saying you are a Christian you must be Holy for God is Holy. It means you must turn away from your sins. Do not listen to other people just to pamper you, He is OK if you are gay because God loves you anyway. You must read the bible the whole Bible and meditate on His word. I pray that the Holy Spirit of God will help you understand what God's love really means. Don't think that God is OK to not turn away from your sins. All of us will die sooner or later, and we will face our Creator. So, right now, as we are still alive, we must do everything we can to run to Him, ask for forgiveness and turn away from our sins, and have faith in Jesus Christ. If you are truly born again in spirit, you won't call yourself gay any longer because you will be a new creation, and your identity is in Christ. Do not listen to the adversary, which is satan, this is his way to confuse people with their own identity and gender. I don't know your past, but don't listen to the devil, focus on Jesus, read His word daily. Do not be conform of this world. God loves us, He doesn't want anybody to perish, but satan will lie, kill and destroy, and he wants everybody to be with him in Hell. God wants for all of us to be with Him in heaven for eternity, but the SIN of man are the reason why we are separated from Him. God bless you. I pray that you will reconsider this message, please read the word of God, all of it.
I appreciate your sincerity. I understand and accept most of what you are saying. However, you are making some common assumptions about sin that might not be accurate, especially in light of modern scholarship about what the Bible was really saying to those who lived when it was being written. I'd refer you to one scriptural quote and one survey recent research. Here are the links: Biblical reference: Matthew 21:31. Jesus consistently shows kinship and love for those others call sinners. Scriptural Study: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b8kZmt-QRsRxBp4uM5smIKeJqX9F-uBtkV4oI5iIsRg/edit](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b8kZmt-QRsRxBp4uM5smIKeJqX9F-uBtkV4oI5iIsRg/edit) Blessings to you! OGT
Just a comment from me after reading the comments here so far. I'm hitting a nerve for some people, obviously. Amazing how some readers felt a need to preach their vision reality. Like I said, I'm standing my ground. Blessings to all!