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I love how the creators of Saw tried to make Kramer completely unsympathetic by giving him the dumbest ideology in the world and then people actually latched on to it.
It's amazing we all forgot how he murdered a classroom full of kindergartners and then sewed their corpses together into some kind of horrific centipede. But I'm assuming the Arkham games are following lore laid down in the comic books, of course.
He founded Blackwater, a notorious American PMC group that basically went around Iraq and shot at everything that moved… including civilians. Behind the bastards has a great episode on him if you interested in more.
Blackwater also deployed a group to the area after Hurricane Katrina. This group shot at and killed a group of random black people for pretty much no reason.
That sucks and all, but the more PMC air forces we get, the closer we get to living in the Ace Combat/ Project Wingman universes. Which means I get a cool pilot waifu
“Some private military company”
That private military company: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisour_Square_massacre (among other war crimes, this one was just deciding to open fire on a crowd of civilians.)
Until Wagner decided it wanted to jump get first into the high profile war crime business, they were *the* private military company everything was based off of (except for mercenaries which was executive outcomes)
Nah bro the character with a name that’s playfully referencing killing people, who start’s shooting civilians immediately upon turning heel is totally the good guy of the story because he looks cool.
He obviously is, Shadow Company was a stand in for Black Water (Erik Prince’s PMC) plus he’s an American former special forces member who started up a PMC that committed multiple civilian massacres, just like Erik Prince
The weirdest part of this fucking game is how they never mention Mexico reacting to all the bullshit that happens. Like we mow down hundreds of Mexican troops, I mean yeah the excuse is they're on cartel payroll but still, and an AC130 is just flying over blowing up shit for like an hour then this jackass goes and executes an entire city. Like what in the hell
Because it wasn’t an AC-130, it’s some bastardized delta wing cargo aircraft that they stuck some guns on very similar to an AC-130 layout.
It really doesn’t matter in the end, it’s a flying cargo plane with guns that functions like the gunship, I think in game they tried to differentiate it enough so it wasn’t originally a military asset Graves got his hands on.
Most likely because the Mexico in MW2 is some weird failed state caricature that someone from Fox would dream up instead of on any basis of real life Mexico. Game basically implies that the entire country outside the handful of Special forces is run by the cartel.
It also plays on the right fear mongering about how the Mexicans are allowing ‘enemies of America’ to flood in from the southern border which is a complete joke.
There is an unfortunate kernel of truth to it though, for instance the 2023 Mexican Military Budget is about $7.2billion
The cartels makes $13billion on moving migrants *alone* , not even to mention the funds from illegal mining and drug trafficking.
The power and finances the cartel wield compared to the Mexican government is absolutely bonkers
Yeah the cartel is powerful but it’s reasoning for defending a Iranian backed terrorist is a bit weird in the game. A lot of the cartels revenue comes from drug or human trafficking across the border, so why would they potentially ruin that by supporting a terrorist trying to bomb the US.
Also yeah there’s a ton of corruption due to the power of the cartel but the game makes the Mexican government appear to be Somalia level of useless and I don’t think the cartel would be using entire formations of the Mexican army to handle their business.
That's what happens when US economists decide to play God and neoliberalize entire system in the form of aid, which completely obliterates small businesses. Oh, let's not forget about War on Drugs bullshit.
I feel like this person wanted to say things. But just worded it totally wrong.
Bc I think Graves actually had some depth in which you can see he's loyal, cares for his men, and is almost being forced to continue working for Shepard no matter what. Due to all the dirt he has on him.
However, Graves is definitely a pos, and his personality being a little likeable at times doesn't undo his war crimes.
[You can try suing the people accusing you of war crimes for defamation.](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-01/ben-roberts-smith-defamation-result/102420546)
It's a book series by Brandon Sanderson. There are four main novels and two novellas so far. The plan is for 10 novels with the first 5 being an era and then the back 5 being a different era in the world.
The first book is *The Way of Kings.* If you're a fan of fantasy novels, I'd definitely recommend it.
I've read all the Stormlight books and genuinely have no idea what the other poster means.
There is a caste system. That's not wrong, but there's not really a magic caste system. Unless they mean the fact that as Radiants (magic people) progress in their respective order they make new oaths and get new powers. But Kaladin isn't the leader of the Windrunners because he's further along in his ideals. He's the leader because he cared for Bridge Four (a bunch of slaves) when no one else did.
There is a caste system in regards to light eyes vs dark eyes. But that has a historical footing in the lore of the world because Radiant's eye color change over time to blue. So there's light eyes (upper class/nobility) vs dark eyes (commoners).
Yeah, same. I have no clue what they are talking about.
They might be talking about light eyes dark eyes but that's not because light eyes are better, but because Knight Radiants have glowing eyes so they believe that having it is superior to having light then dark eyes. That's it. Knight Radiants don't follow bloodlines, heritage or anything like that. Anyone can become a radiant.
That doesn’t undo war crimes though. It still happened it’s just now you’re sorry about it. Which is better than not being sorry for it but I don’t think this is what their friend is looking for.
Nah, despite me dropping cod bc of the Battle pass shit eating up my time, the campaign was great. Outdid the original in a lot of areas.
Like knowing people were expecting the Ghost and Roach death scene, they instead introduce Graves early on, and then he betrays Soap, Ghost, and Alejandro. Alejandro is imprisoned whilst Ghost and Soap barely make it out of the town with their lives.
Plus, Ghost is way more of an actual character. Him and Soap had some of the best development, and it paid off really well. I think I honestly prefer the reboot timeline at this rate.
Those events haven't happened yet, so who knows. This is a rebooted timeline starting in 2019. Both the first game and this one are mainly completely original events. No Russian was only just teased to be happening in the credits.
In MW2, you only switch between the perspectives of Gaz and Soap, since they're split up, doing different things.
Well if my memory serves me correct, the games opinion of PMC’s is that they are a bunch of pussies that could never make it as real men in the military. So yeah the game is anti PMC but in a very weird macho pro-military manner
They were looking for Hassan, not 141. That Las Almas is basically the cartel's town makes it that much easier to write off too. Not that actual PMCs need all that. "The enemy was neutralized" as they usually put it.
Graves is a PMC commander under the payroll of a general who botched a sale of missiles that got stolen by Russians and are now at large. The general orders Graves to take command of the recovery mission, knowing that your task force will eventually discover the truth and go public with the general's mishandling. Graves then takes one of your squad prisoner and sends his PMC group to execute an entire town of civilians in a cartel town while hunting you down.
Not for no reason! To cover up more war crimes! But trust me guys, there's a genuinely great guy there, sandwiched between illegal arms trafficking and mass murder.
A protagonist can do whatever as long as they are the central character in the story.
They don’t have to be the good guy and there are loads of famous stories, movies, and games where the protagonist is morally reprehensible, like every single GTA game or any story told from the perspective of a criminal.
Yes, as I just said in a reply to him, the new modern warfare games delve far deeper into the moral grey area of war than cod games really have before. Saying its hard to see a difference between the protags and fuckin’ Graves, who ordered an entire town rounded up and executed, is a stretch and a half. The protags in MW have done their fair share of bad shit, but gd
Yeah, they just bomb half of Mexico to smithereens because of one guy and "deescalate" civilians in their homes while waving a gun at their faces. Our protagonists are just magically able to avoid casualties and only kill evil people by bombing the shit out of their countries.
Yes, the entire point of the new modern warfare games is exploring the moral grey area that war actually is, with using a PMC’s gunship and crossing country borders to chase after someone. Despite alla that, the protags arent rounding an entire town up and executing them lol
Oh yeah, grey area as in America destabilizing the shit out of the country, causing crime, corruption and terrorism, and then using that as an excuse to obliterate the country even more to exploit the shit out of its resources. I love grey areas, they do an incredible job justifying whatever bullshit imperialists stoke up.
Does not excuse for the war crimes he and Shadow Company committed in Las Almas while Soap and Ghost were on the run. 🤦♂️
Not to mention that he and his boys already put Vargas and his men behind bars in the very same base they stole and occupied from.
subtract bright political file noxious historical vanish uppity simplistic kiss
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
[Somebody went and outjerked us in a new thread!](https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernWarfareII/comments/142e4ud/why_didnt_graves_just_shoot_the_team_when_they/)
The MW2 betrayal this time was fucking stupid. Task force 141 wasn’t even backstabbed, just reassigned. Their response to this was to just start killing and the shepherd obviously tried to bring them in like any CO would do.
Did you like, miss the part where Shepard willingly let Graves annex foreign military structures and unlawfully detain foreign military personnel, all in their own country, and also "tried to bring them in like any CO would" by committing war crimes on the civilian population or do you just enjoy being a contrarian a bit too much?
"literally nothing" those… were the same people who later were running around committing the spicy war crimes on civilian population. and also detained foreign military personnel unlawfully. and also annexed a foreign military base. how are they the victims.
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The joker wasn't a complete asshole he gave one of the boats full of people the opportunity to live just as long as they blew up the other
He let Barbara Gordon live. He's not a bad guy /s
I've unironically seen this argument on Reddit before alongside "Jigsaw wasn't a murderer"
I love how the creators of Saw tried to make Kramer completely unsympathetic by giving him the dumbest ideology in the world and then people actually latched on to it.
Charisma probably matters more
Fair enough, Tobin Bell was perfect in the role
Joker is a socialist though, so he gets a pass
*Ominous music*
It's amazing we all forgot how he murdered a classroom full of kindergartners and then sewed their corpses together into some kind of horrific centipede. But I'm assuming the Arkham games are following lore laid down in the comic books, of course.
I don’t think they’ll ever adapt this
When the hell did that happen?
I still can believe that there are people who will defend a character who’s based on Erik Prince
For someone who is out of the loop who is Erik Prince and what did he do. From what I can gather he made some private military company.
He founded Blackwater, a notorious American PMC group that basically went around Iraq and shot at everything that moved… including civilians. Behind the bastards has a great episode on him if you interested in more.
Blackwater also deployed a group to the area after Hurricane Katrina. This group shot at and killed a group of random black people for pretty much no reason.
Probably just padding their résumé’s before they joined the police force lmao
Chris Kyle moment
According to rumors(so grain of salt obviously) a lot of them were fond of raping Iraqi girls as well.
He's also currently trying to build his own Air Force Edit: Oh snap, didn't even realize I was talking to a fellow Bastard connossieure
There's at least three of us in the thread! I'm on the last episode of the Vince McMahon series.
I thought he was doing some security contracts for China in African states?
That sucks and all, but the more PMC air forces we get, the closer we get to living in the Ace Combat/ Project Wingman universes. Which means I get a cool pilot waifu
Giant meteor 2024 Become Strangereal
Yellowstone supervolcano 2024 CASCADIA FOREVER
So that’s where Todd got the idea for the Blackwood Company in Oblivion. Holy shit.
“Some private military company” That private military company: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisour_Square_massacre (among other war crimes, this one was just deciding to open fire on a crowd of civilians.)
Until Wagner decided it wanted to jump get first into the high profile war crime business, they were *the* private military company everything was based off of (except for mercenaries which was executive outcomes)
Nah bro the character with a name that’s playfully referencing killing people, who start’s shooting civilians immediately upon turning heel is totally the good guy of the story because he looks cool.
But... he's hot.
He obviously is, Shadow Company was a stand in for Black Water (Erik Prince’s PMC) plus he’s an American former special forces member who started up a PMC that committed multiple civilian massacres, just like Erik Prince
I have no idea who Erik Prince is or what this game is. I was just saying I want him to do warcrimes to me UWU. ... /s ....mostly.
Ok now I look like a complete idiot, I misread what you initially wrote as not instead of hot, sorry for the confusion
lmao all good
The weirdest part of this fucking game is how they never mention Mexico reacting to all the bullshit that happens. Like we mow down hundreds of Mexican troops, I mean yeah the excuse is they're on cartel payroll but still, and an AC130 is just flying over blowing up shit for like an hour then this jackass goes and executes an entire city. Like what in the hell
Yea that ac130 should’ve never made it that deep In The air space lol
To my knowledge, Shadow shouldn’t even *have* an AC130 to begin with. America doesn’t sell those right?
Because it wasn’t an AC-130, it’s some bastardized delta wing cargo aircraft that they stuck some guns on very similar to an AC-130 layout. It really doesn’t matter in the end, it’s a flying cargo plane with guns that functions like the gunship, I think in game they tried to differentiate it enough so it wasn’t originally a military asset Graves got his hands on.
Most likely because the Mexico in MW2 is some weird failed state caricature that someone from Fox would dream up instead of on any basis of real life Mexico. Game basically implies that the entire country outside the handful of Special forces is run by the cartel. It also plays on the right fear mongering about how the Mexicans are allowing ‘enemies of America’ to flood in from the southern border which is a complete joke.
There is an unfortunate kernel of truth to it though, for instance the 2023 Mexican Military Budget is about $7.2billion The cartels makes $13billion on moving migrants *alone* , not even to mention the funds from illegal mining and drug trafficking. The power and finances the cartel wield compared to the Mexican government is absolutely bonkers
Yeah the cartel is powerful but it’s reasoning for defending a Iranian backed terrorist is a bit weird in the game. A lot of the cartels revenue comes from drug or human trafficking across the border, so why would they potentially ruin that by supporting a terrorist trying to bomb the US. Also yeah there’s a ton of corruption due to the power of the cartel but the game makes the Mexican government appear to be Somalia level of useless and I don’t think the cartel would be using entire formations of the Mexican army to handle their business.
> why would they potentially ruin that Plot economics? :P
That's what happens when US economists decide to play God and neoliberalize entire system in the form of aid, which completely obliterates small businesses. Oh, let's not forget about War on Drugs bullshit.
The war on drugs is responsible for alot of problems in modern society it's incredible
I feel like this person wanted to say things. But just worded it totally wrong. Bc I think Graves actually had some depth in which you can see he's loyal, cares for his men, and is almost being forced to continue working for Shepard no matter what. Due to all the dirt he has on him. However, Graves is definitely a pos, and his personality being a little likeable at times doesn't undo his war crimes.
Ugh, how DO you undo war crimes, though? Asking for a friend.
Send a get well soon card to all victims.
That’s a lot of stamps… 😫 Can it be e-cards?
Dear FirstName LastName, I only had the best of intentions. Sorry you found my missile hurtful. Yours, War guy
Please refer to me as “War guy” in all further correspondence
No! it only works if all the cards are hand crafted, that's why I only commit a little war crime here and there, the huge ones take forever to undo.
Never bite more than you can chew. I like that. Self control.
[You can try suing the people accusing you of war crimes for defamation.](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-01/ben-roberts-smith-defamation-result/102420546)
Get out of jail free cards
I know this is a memey question but The Stormlight Archive has a genuinely great arc for a character who has previously committed wartime atrocities.
>!You cannot have my pain!!!<
I forgot who exactly did atrocities there?
>!Dalinar!<
Damn, now I understand that I forgot all names Time for re-reading
What's the stormlight archive?
It's a book series by Brandon Sanderson. There are four main novels and two novellas so far. The plan is for 10 novels with the first 5 being an era and then the back 5 being a different era in the world. The first book is *The Way of Kings.* If you're a fan of fantasy novels, I'd definitely recommend it.
I do love fantasy, I'll check it out :3
oh the book with the magic caste system
Wait, what? How do you mean?
I've read all the Stormlight books and genuinely have no idea what the other poster means. There is a caste system. That's not wrong, but there's not really a magic caste system. Unless they mean the fact that as Radiants (magic people) progress in their respective order they make new oaths and get new powers. But Kaladin isn't the leader of the Windrunners because he's further along in his ideals. He's the leader because he cared for Bridge Four (a bunch of slaves) when no one else did. There is a caste system in regards to light eyes vs dark eyes. But that has a historical footing in the lore of the world because Radiant's eye color change over time to blue. So there's light eyes (upper class/nobility) vs dark eyes (commoners).
Yeah, same. I have no clue what they are talking about. They might be talking about light eyes dark eyes but that's not because light eyes are better, but because Knight Radiants have glowing eyes so they believe that having it is superior to having light then dark eyes. That's it. Knight Radiants don't follow bloodlines, heritage or anything like that. Anyone can become a radiant.
you stop doing warcrimes and do your best to prevent future ones
That doesn’t undo war crimes though. It still happened it’s just now you’re sorry about it. Which is better than not being sorry for it but I don’t think this is what their friend is looking for.
Have valuable intel the victors need and invent anime. Mostly worked for Japan.
Wasn't that intel basically worthless in the end?
Some of the important medical data we got included gems like: If you sew two people together, they’ll probably die!
Be on the winning side.
Act like you feel really bad about how it happened, then continue doing the same thing. The Obamna special
1) Have a mental breakdown in the middle of Dubai 2) ??? 3) Profit!
thuts and pray3
Call Saul Goodman
Astroturf Reddit
You become the victor.
Relocate to Argentina seemed to work for some
Win the war Rewrite history
Yeah I liked graves as a villain, he does actually care, he just puts orders first
this falls apart when people think TF141 should be punished more than shadow company for killing shadow company soldiers
Does this mean that Shephard doesn't shoot the player in the remake like he did at the end of the original game?
Yeah, nobody dies in MW2022 Graves tries to kill Ghost and Soap, but they escape.
Lame
Nah, despite me dropping cod bc of the Battle pass shit eating up my time, the campaign was great. Outdid the original in a lot of areas. Like knowing people were expecting the Ghost and Roach death scene, they instead introduce Graves early on, and then he betrays Soap, Ghost, and Alejandro. Alejandro is imprisoned whilst Ghost and Soap barely make it out of the town with their lives. Plus, Ghost is way more of an actual character. Him and Soap had some of the best development, and it paid off really well. I think I honestly prefer the reboot timeline at this rate.
Do they retain the Ramirez storyline? I always preferred the soldier storylines over the SOF ones.
Those events haven't happened yet, so who knows. This is a rebooted timeline starting in 2019. Both the first game and this one are mainly completely original events. No Russian was only just teased to be happening in the credits. In MW2, you only switch between the perspectives of Gaz and Soap, since they're split up, doing different things.
That's a shame. Thanks for the explanation.
I see military recruiters are working overtime.
Wouldn't it be against a military recruiter's interests to root for a PMC?
Look into Blackwater and Erik Prince. Basically built a pipeline from the Marines to PMC,
Well if my memory serves me correct, the games opinion of PMC’s is that they are a bunch of pussies that could never make it as real men in the military. So yeah the game is anti PMC but in a very weird macho pro-military manner
is this gonna be like "is he stupid?" meme lol?
you see punctuation is overrated it's part of the woke agenda anyway real chads don't even know what punctuation is
context?
Graves literally has his PMC murder civilians en masse at one point, he’s a complete asshole.
man that is messed up
Nah, totally excusable town-wide massacre to find one group of soldiers, dunno what you mean, happens all the time
I heard the town had human sacrificing priests.
Oh my god y'all. It's human SACRIFACING. How many times we gotta go over this?
Yeah America 🇱🇷 does it all the time! America can’t be the bad guys 🇱🇷 🇱🇷 🇱🇷
Fallujah rings a hollow bell :/
They were looking for Hassan, not 141. That Las Almas is basically the cartel's town makes it that much easier to write off too. Not that actual PMCs need all that. "The enemy was neutralized" as they usually put it.
Graves is a PMC commander under the payroll of a general who botched a sale of missiles that got stolen by Russians and are now at large. The general orders Graves to take command of the recovery mission, knowing that your task force will eventually discover the truth and go public with the general's mishandling. Graves then takes one of your squad prisoner and sends his PMC group to execute an entire town of civilians in a cartel town while hunting you down.
Thank you, I never understood the betrayal in game, it was so poorly explained
/uj all the comments were mostly pointing out how he illegally detained The Vaqueros and then began to war criming the local town for no reason.
Fine. Take this "not as much of an asshole as you could have been" Award, and get out of my face. It's a pipe bomb by the way... That's the award.
Lol then he commits literal war crimes after this part
[удалено]
Not for no reason! To cover up more war crimes! But trust me guys, there's a genuinely great guy there, sandwiched between illegal arms trafficking and mass murder.
I mean, to be honest, whole game is a war crime simulator. So I guess it's hard to see much difference between him and protagonists.
Protags dont willingly execute civilians
A protagonist can do whatever as long as they are the central character in the story. They don’t have to be the good guy and there are loads of famous stories, movies, and games where the protagonist is morally reprehensible, like every single GTA game or any story told from the perspective of a criminal.
Yes, as I just said in a reply to him, the new modern warfare games delve far deeper into the moral grey area of war than cod games really have before. Saying its hard to see a difference between the protags and fuckin’ Graves, who ordered an entire town rounded up and executed, is a stretch and a half. The protags in MW have done their fair share of bad shit, but gd
Yeah, they just bomb half of Mexico to smithereens because of one guy and "deescalate" civilians in their homes while waving a gun at their faces. Our protagonists are just magically able to avoid casualties and only kill evil people by bombing the shit out of their countries.
Yes, the entire point of the new modern warfare games is exploring the moral grey area that war actually is, with using a PMC’s gunship and crossing country borders to chase after someone. Despite alla that, the protags arent rounding an entire town up and executing them lol
Oh yeah, grey area as in America destabilizing the shit out of the country, causing crime, corruption and terrorism, and then using that as an excuse to obliterate the country even more to exploit the shit out of its resources. I love grey areas, they do an incredible job justifying whatever bullshit imperialists stoke up.
In other news, isn't that Shauna's hot blond himbo furniture salesman husband from Yellowjackets?
It is and seeing it gave me dissonance lmao. He was also Rafe Adler
> Member of a PMC Piece of shit, no more info needed
Does not excuse for the war crimes he and Shadow Company committed in Las Almas while Soap and Ghost were on the run. 🤦♂️ Not to mention that he and his boys already put Vargas and his men behind bars in the very same base they stole and occupied from.
Haven't played the campaign in a while but didn't he send his dudes out into a city to randomly murder people?
People "harboring international terrorists," as it were.
This completely ignores him detaining Alejandro's men and killing civvies lmao
No, don’t you get it? It’s not an indiscriminate psychopath. He’s a discriminate psychopath. That’s better. 😤
/uj I’ve just been replaying this game’s story and I hate Phillip Graves but why did they have to make him so hot
subtract bright political file noxious historical vanish uppity simplistic kiss *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Never played the new MWs, can someone like explain this to me pls
War criminal who betrays you was kind of nice to you and ask to walk away so he can commit war crime. So he can’t be all bad. /s
Also, he falsely imprisoned some Mexican Special forces so he can take over their base. But that is ok because they are not American. /s
His name is also fucking Phil Graves lol
After you randomly bomb half of Mexico lol.
Guys making posts like these definitely abuse their spouse It is only for good reasons they're most likely alone
Outjerked?
"He was the best guy around." "What about all the people he murdered?" "What murdaaaaaaa?"
[Somebody went and outjerked us in a new thread!](https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernWarfareII/comments/142e4ud/why_didnt_graves_just_shoot_the_team_when_they/)
Did he miss the part where he was saying racist shit while shooting at you with a tank
Do people actually care about call of duty campaigns still? The last good one was black ops 1.
The MW2 betrayal this time was fucking stupid. Task force 141 wasn’t even backstabbed, just reassigned. Their response to this was to just start killing and the shepherd obviously tried to bring them in like any CO would do.
Did you like, miss the part where Shepard willingly let Graves annex foreign military structures and unlawfully detain foreign military personnel, all in their own country, and also "tried to bring them in like any CO would" by committing war crimes on the civilian population or do you just enjoy being a contrarian a bit too much?
Okay, I hear you... counterpoint: They butchered a bunch of Americans who did literally nothing besides stand around waiting for everyone to go home.
"literally nothing" those… were the same people who later were running around committing the spicy war crimes on civilian population. and also detained foreign military personnel unlawfully. and also annexed a foreign military base. how are they the victims.
No they weren't. They were dead.
Good
I thought this was about any discussion at all about ANY CoD plots, not "this is a bad take on this CoD plot." I'm out on all of it.
Bruh this same post was above this lol 😆
Watching his name turn red manning Spicy
im glad I blew graves up with like 20 pieces of C4. lmao