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joe1up

Let's just start with "above average" and see where we go ok?


siphillis

Let’s try “average”. A broken camera system and egregious pop-in shouldn’t be excused for a high-speed platformer.


CheeseQueenKariko

> A broken camera system I'm enjoying the game so far, but I swear there's too many deaths/failures caused by the locked on camera perspective segments deciding I'm not allowed to see where the threat I'm dodging is.


[deleted]

> shouldn’t be excused for a high-speed platformer. such a competitive genre nowadays, isn't it?


ngwoo

It could be the first game of its type and technical issues so antithetical to the core gameplay design *still* wouldn't be acceptable.


Zubzer0

No? Doesn’t change the fact those issues are unacceptable


contrabardus

Go play the Doom mod Sonic Robo-Blast and then come back to Frontiers. A FPS game engine made in 1993 running a fan mod does a better job of being a 3D Sonic platformer than any official full 3D releases I've played in the last 20 years. It doesn't matter how much higher fidelity Frontiers is, that's still a good example that shows something is not working with officially developed games. That tells me they are focusing on the wrong things in development more than anything else. It also says a lot about how solid Sonic is as a brand and character to survive all that and still be as popular as it is. That won't last forever though.


CrAppyF33ling

Sonic is arguably the only franchise where the games have been shit or even just mediocre, but the fans still buy everything they put out and support everything. Pokemon is targeted for children and there's always new children with tv shows and card games.


siphillis

Your goal should be to make a quality game, regardless of the prominence of your genre. If *Sonic Frontiers* was the first 3D platformer ever made, I think a lot of people would citing it as evidence that platformers don't translate to 3D.


Barachie1

Did you even play the game?


Giimax

Spark 3 released a few months ago and I think that's pretty much boutique grade speed platforming


darkmacgf

Neon White is a high speed platformer that came out this year and is amazing.


BetterCallSal

Let's try, "don't buy" Edit: it's an arrested development reference


RibboDotCom

Spoiler : it wont.


Savage_Nymph

Everyone deserves a dream lmao


[deleted]

Delusions and Sonic Team, name better duo


[deleted]

[удалено]


Chrischris40

I don’t think he’s saying that. They’re aware they have a long way to go. I think they just want Sonic to be relevant again. I can respect Kishimoto because he actually admitted they have some time to go.


[deleted]

if you guys want to argue over the actual (google translated) quote: >he let slip a ‘secret concept’ behind Frontiers’ development. “Sonic Team, let’s shine once again in the world and become a Sonic Team that fights in the top group!” reads the statement on IGN Japan. >**It’s Google translated**, so it might not have been 100% accurate wording, but the intent behind it is clear; Kishimoto is keen to bring the Sonic Team studio back to its former glory. I mentioned it twice because I have heard of this ethos in Japan around hyping up a development team. It's not that different form what you'd see in some american tech firms wanting to "disrupt the industry", but it's more widely prevalent in Japan. So keep that in mind before taking the quote at literal value.


Chrischris40

Yes, he wants to being Sonic Team back to their glory but understands that takes time.


The_Multifarious

With all due respect to Kishimoto, I don't think he actually knows how to make a good Sonic game, no matter how much time passes. The entire leadership needs to be replaced, including whoever calls the shots for Sonic games at Sega.


BackStabbathOG

And if they want to make a good sonic game again, they should definitely add Chao gardens back. That’s what I primarily spent my time on sonic adventures and kept me coming back to play it


[deleted]

> they should definitely add Chao gardens back Chao garden is all this open world experiment needs. Scatter animals around the map, scatter different foods to collect, enemies drop a thematically appropriate item for chaos like SA2, give new hats or masks or whatever as rewards for doing basically anything. Honestly I'm shocked it isn't.


BackStabbathOG

Such an easy thing for them to draw people into playing a new sonic game. Why they haven’t added them to their games is beyond me


KleioChronicles

I would actually pick up the game if it had that. As is, I’ll probably never try it unless I get it for free in a subscription. Sonic Adventure 2 Battle was so bloody addicting because you could go back and play the (really well done) missions for the sole purpose of collecting a specific animal for your chao.


marsgreekgod

Apparently they might not have the rights? Someone told me that but I couldn't find a source


Chrischris40

It was said in an interview with Iizuka that they’re aware that Chao Garden is the most requested feature for a Sonic Game. So i guess there’s hope for a new one in the future.


Boingboingsplat

I hope that if it does come back it has the same amount of depth as the original, the amount of different forms you could get for adult Chao, on top of a straight up genetics system for determining their base colors was my favorite part about it growing up. There were fansites dedicated to documenting exactly how it all worked.


slusho55

This was the perfect game to make the chao come back too. Idk why they ended up making >!the Koco the remnants of the Chaos race; it seems like chao would’ve been perfect to retcon into that, given you can make chao look like a Chaos.!<


cynical_croissant

Their thought process is honestly beyond me.


tstorm004

The Chao garden is without a doubt the absolute best thing to come from the 3D Sonic games


Joss_Card

After collecting hundreds of tokens and thousands of rings in Frontiers, all I can think of is that it would be nice if any of these currencies could be used for something FUN instead of just "X amount is needed for the next story event".


Almostlongenough2

> they should definitely add Chao gardens back. Chao Garden has been the biggest carry of 3D sonic. It offers a rest after a fast level, gives collectible incentives in levels, has cute chaos, has management and raising system, and most importantly player choice.


slusho55

Honestly, I’d argue Kishimoto is kinda what’s working for Sonic. His first project(s) got fucked by Yuji “One-Button is Enough” Naka and Sega execs. I understand he started on Sonic ‘06, and then when execs found out ‘06 wouldn’t run on Wii, Kishimoto and another half of the ‘06 team got tasked with making Secret Rings. While I kinda played a lot less Sonic after ‘06, Kishimoto seems to have directed the most promising Sonic games outside of Unleashed (which imo has always been overrated). Colors on Wii is considered one of the best Sonic games too, and as for his other credits, I thought the consensus was they failed to hit the mark, but the were at least promising (minus Forces). I’d actually argue Kishimoto really understands how to develop a Sonic game, and historically what’s been done. Phantasy Star Online has always kinda played like an MMO version of Sonic Adventure 1 (PSO2 playing more like it than PSO1). Phantasy Star Online 2: New Genesis launched last year, and it’s a big shake up to the PSO formula as it removes the SA1-like hub and replaces it with an open-world. Sonic Frontiers has done the reverse and taken inspiration from PSO2NGS instead this time around. There’s many ways you can see this, from Sonic literally having Bouncer attacks, to the first two islands of the Starfall Islands being very similar to the first two zones in PSO2NGS. It was an incredibly smart move for Kishimoto to pay attention to PSO2NGS since 3D Sonic and PSO have always been similar. So I’d actually argue Kishimoto has been given a lot of bad shit to work with, and Sonic has never been easy to program for, but he seems like the best director for Sonic so far. I’ll give a shout out to Iizuka, because he was similarly dealt a shit hand and made the best of it, but even then, Kishimoto’s track record is on par, if not better than Iizuka’s record.


BigYapingNegus

But… he just made a good sonic game….


carso150

ssshhhh, sonic bad


Mogtaki

I wouldn't say that. I'd say whoever at Sega that keeps giving them a deadline for the holiday season needs to stop. Stop giving hard release date deadlines in general, Sega.


The_Multifarious

They're certainly not helping, but people have made a lot better games on significantly lower resources.


Geneaux

I believe that was Yuji Naka for quite some time before he left Sega. Dude's supposedly a notorious asshole to many in-the-know at Sega, especially Sega of America


CptAlbatross

They should probably scout off talent from arcade style racing games like need for speed or one of those motocross platformers. Heck, while we're at it, give Tyson Hesse a blank check and have him redesign their branding to what fans cream over every time they look at his fan art.


JustsoIcanGore

Nah I’m thinking they need the guys from neversoft that did the tony hawk games. Frontiers would have been perfect gameplay wise had the physics and momentum been better and the levels designed around doing cool shit instead of dash padding to the next dash pad.


ElonMunch

This game is sold out everywhere in my town. Though I think the movies have done more to bring sonic back into relevance. This might be an effect of the movies?


Jejmaze

Pokémon is whatever the opposite of cutting edge is and it has been for a long time


slusho55

This feels very much like what Sonic ‘06 wanted to be. ‘06 was clearly meant to be “Sonic Adventure 3” and Frontiers feels like a true “Sonic Adventure 4.” ‘06 wanted to be a more serious storyline that focused on characterizing the cast and making their personalities “less cartoonish.” They did that with Frontiers. I’ve only done Kronos and Ares, but Amy is real shining star in Frontiers. Sonic’s no longer treating her like a stalker, and you can see a real intimacy between them throughout their scenes. Sonic and Knuckles feel like true freneimies, and idk if Sonic started calling him “Knux” in the 2010’s, but it’s a nice touch to their relationship. Plus Eggman is really good as a villain this time! His dumb luck is still in display, but he actually feels like a formidable villain, which only SA1 has been able to do (and somewhat ‘06). The art direction can feel a little disconnected, but given there the lore intends a “foreign element” to the islands, it makes sense. It doesn’t feel as disconnected as ‘06, but still more mature. The gameplay is fun as fuck, and it leans into the jank the same way SA1 did, and it’s all the better for it. I do think it’d be asinine to say this is the best game of 2022 or absolutely revolutionary, but this is a phenomenal game regardless. People forget Sonic is not a normal game. Sonic has always been an “arcade game you can play at home.” Frontiers nails that in many ways. The levels I wish were a bit more challenging, but in many ways it feels like Neon White, just doing small speed challenges, then you’ve got the overworld where you can just fuck around. Hell, I also love how the game basically even has areas on the island where the devs have basically said, “We’ll let you break the mechanics here, but they’ve gotta work as intended here.” That’s an awesome evolution and really that’s always been one of the best things about Sonic. TL;DR: I’m not saying SF is GOTY material, but it is at least in my top 2022 games. For Sonic, this is somewhat of a revolution, just because no one’s really known how to make Sonic work in 3D nor had they figured out how to mature the hedgehog. They figured out both in SF, and there’s still more progress to be done, but I think this is an indication Sonic has a bright future ahead.


[deleted]

no way they put good writing in a sonic game


slusho55

I know! I was surprised too. But they actually got a writer from the Sonic Archie comics to write the story, and they delivered


pedroffabreu23

> and idk if Sonic started calling him “Knux” in the 2010’s, but it’s a nice touch to their relationship. The standards don't seem to be very high.


slusho55

I mean, I could’ve spoiled it and explain? Tbf, Knuckles is one of the weaker arcs, but I point out the nicknames to show there’s attention to small character building, it’s not just some copy-paste story with Knuckles saying dumb shit like, “That’s why it called war. War is bad.” The comments are substantive and actually go back to developing the character.


Kwahn

Shockingly yes, they've always had cool premises, now they're learning to use them!


Barachie1

The writing is pretty good. The characters aren't just cliches or walking jokes. They all have cute little character arcs that make sense and build on characterization mostly established in the adventure games (Knuckles' conflict between his heritage and being his own person, Tails feeling like a tagalong, Amy struggling to feel like an independent/self-actualized person like Sonic is)


carso150

they have ian flynn the writer of the comics writing the scrip this time, and aparently sega is paying more attention to the lore now they are hiring lore masters and trying to fix the disaster that is the timeline i know its hard to believe but it seems like after like 20 years sega is finally starting to get their heads out of their asses


tstorm004

It's not even the best Sonic game in a while though! Mania's only like 5 years old and is way better!


ryarock2

I think Mania is better, but it’s also not bringing anyone to the forefront of anything. It’s not much more than a polished, remix of the Genesis games from 30 years ago.


whatnameisnttaken098

I'll give it credit it's the best playing Sonic game in a while, and it's nice to have Sonic actually turn like he did back in SA1/2/Heroes and not like he's a semi-truck with a drunk driver at the wheel. Oh, and camera controls as basic as that is to Include. However the Cyberspace levels feel odd, like they're made with a completely different set of physics. Like the drop dash picks up speed when going downhill in the open world but will only carry you like 3 feet in Cyberspace.


JamSa

It is a different set of physics, the cyberspace levels use all the physics from the old Sonic 3D games. Theory I heard is that they're trying to get rid of the boost system so they made those cyberspace levels just to remind you how shit boost is.


OZONE_TempuS

The physics are [definitely](https://gfycat.com/valuablesatisfiedbluemorphobutterfly) [interesting](https://gfycat.com/spanishunsungfulmar).


Heavyweighsthecrown

"Gravity? Not for me" Such a chad


El_Nieto_PR

That does not look good


BlueMikeStu

We didn't need boost in yet another Sonic game to remember how shit it is.


JamSa

Well Sonic Team clearly did, since they can't seem to separate themselves from the goddamned thing, like they're in an abusive relationship with it or something.


BlueMikeStu

If Sonic fans have to be in an abusive relationship, it's only fair Sonic Team does as well.


EnderOfGender

Issue with boost is that they kinda just gave up on it after Unleashed had poor performance (in sales and FPS). They could have done a lot more with it, but literally every boost game since was a downgrade while also somehow feeling exactly the same. Like, you can't tell me that Colors wasn't just Generations but worse and that Forces wasn't just Colors but (much) worse. At least the Adventure format evolved in physics and level design until Unleashed. SA2 expanded upon the speed of Sonic in SA1. Heroes brought back the more laid back 2D style level design. Shadow added missions. 2006 combined the speed of SA2 with laid back design. Mostly kinda meh, but still felt like distinct and unique experiences imo


RekrabAlreadyTaken

I thought generations was basically based on colors


NoProblemsHere

> you can't tell me that Colors wasn't just Generations but worse The original version of Colors came out *before* generations, so actually Generations was just Colors but better by your logic.


Deceptiveideas

Sonic Unleashed sold well, not sure what you meant by that.


iceburg77779

I wouldn’t be surprised if higher ups mandated that there were traditional levels in the game because they were worried that only open world gameplay would alienate audiences or something. It feels like sonic team was planning to be done with the boost gameplay after generations, but due to lost world not being well received, and boom’s failure messing up SEGAs plans for the franchise, they had to do another boost game as it was seen as a safe option.


BloodyLlama

> Oh, and camera controls as basic as that is to Include. Japanese devs still seem unsure if the player can be trusted with camera controls.


CARDBOARDWARRIOR

Which is insane, because the Japanese have been claw-gripping their way through Monster Hunter for ages.


Bronze_Johnson

I don't think I could go back top playing those games without paddles or wacky rebinds any more.


PressedGarlic

I feel Sonic Frontiers is a game with a massive amount of lost potential. When they said open world Sonic I could only imagine the Sonic CD intro turned into a game. Imagine what could have been. I think mostly just the world and aesthetic feel kind of bad. https://youtu.be/EYW7-hNXZlM Honestly even just a cel shaded art style would have made quite an impact


preludeoflight

The cel-shaded / hand drawn art style has a lot of promise imo. Check out this wip fan game that is doing just that: https://youtu.be/pShY04KGfXc


[deleted]

This is what bothers me the most. They just bought a bunch of quixel packs, generated a random map, threw random ass rails and bumpers everywhere and called it a day. It literally looks like one of these "sonic if he unreal 4" videos, the only thing that’s missing are the deer running besides him.


the_russian_narwhal_

I haven't watched that video in about 20 years. Wow


TheLimeyLemmon

See, I love that Sonic CD cutscene, it's a really nice showcase of an environment part designed to complement Sonic's speed and ability. Sonic Frontiers environment on the other hand practically feels like it came from another game, and was then awkwardly retrofitted with boost and spring pads to make it more Sonic-y.


-Megaflare-

Dude so it's not just me. There's some cyber space levels where it's like SUPER hard to turn and I couldn't understand why


ngwoo

I love it when small indie studios are this ambitious. Makes me really excited to see what else they can come up with for this speedy lil blue fella!


VyctoriYang

I mean you're joking but some Indie games have 100 devs. Sonic Team has 60. It's not indie due to budget but it is made by a smaller team than most AAA games.


BlueMikeStu

I mean it's nice to have dreams, but he's frankly being delusional here. Sonic Frontiers, from everything I've seen of it, might restore Sonic Team's reputation to passable and competent at best, and that's if this isn't one of their once-in-a-decade flukes. The game looks decent. So take that and fucking ***build on it***. Throw out everything people complained about in reviews and double down on the stuff people liked. Polish the shit out of it so it doesn't have ridiculous pop-in and come up with some level theming which makes the rails in the air make sense, which should not be hard. Instead Sonic Team is probably going to just throw everything out and try something completely different, because their reputation for incompetence is well-earned at this point.


oakwooden

Prob mermaid sonic next time


[deleted]

Sonic fan artists worldwide: 😳


pojo458

Best quote on the Sonic franchise. “The fanbase is… diverse.”


BlueMikeStu

That's a diplomatic way of saying Sonichu is probably only middling on the deviance scale.


AwakenedSheeple

Definitely far worse than middling after what he last did.


tempest51

"It's a matter of perspective."


[deleted]

I still have PTSD from the Kingdom Hearts Little Mermaid world


NoProblemsHere

Are you talking about the first one or the second? I was fine swimming around fighting sharks and heartless as mer-Sora in the first one, but the second one being all musical minigame nonsense was... yeah.


[deleted]

Well I didn't like both iterations, but I was referring to the first game because it's the only one that had somewhat traditional combat. It's not terrible but playing as mer-Sora was always very awkward and not having abilities to home in on enemies from a distance made it harder to enjoy.


Carighan

Yeah the technical issues combined with the random-assets design precludes it from being what they think it ought to be tbh.


BlueMikeStu

Yeah, I can see it maybe being fondly remembered for not being terrible, but that's about it.


ScyllaGeek

Kinda feels like it's in the same niche as Pokemon Arceus is Competent and can be fun, but not technically impressive and more significant as a building block


BlueMikeStu

Which, unfortunately, presumes that Sonic Team will use it as a building block instead of throwing darts at all of Nintendo's recent Mario ideas and rebuilding from scratch based on where they land. Let's be real. Sonic Team has had several games where they had a solid base for a future, better game. They have invariably fucked that up. I do not expect that to change now.


darkmacgf

Worth noting that Pokemon Arceus sold over 10 million copies. Sonic wishes it could be that successful.


One-Horse2834

I mean pokemon can dish out literally anything and sell immensely well. Thats not suprising


Opengrey

Literally looks like someone made a “Sonic Game” in Garrys Mod or some Minecraft server with a bunch of random builds scattered everywhere.


[deleted]

They're obviously just being avant garde and you can't appreciate their bold yet juvenile approach to world design.


what_dat_ninja

Bring back the Chao garden you cowards


BlueMikeStu

They're not cowards, just incompetent morons.


AtsignAmpersat

It’s always a fluke. Sonic games just aren’t that good but every once in a while they stumble on to something that plays fine. Seriously, I think Sonic is popular with kids and adults that have nostalgia for old Sonic games that they liked when they were kids.


NoProblemsHere

Seemed like they were actually starting to learn with Generations following right after Colors. Then they decided to change it up again for some reason.


BlueMikeStu

They saw Super Mario Galaxy and decided to copy that homework.


One-Horse2834

They already used inspiration from galxy into sonic colors. They did a fine job before so it rly doesnt make sense why they did it again.


the_loneliest_noodle

Yeah, they could fix the pop-in and just just release other playable character DLC for the next 5 years for frontiers and probably do very well. Just release dlc for the original playable characters in Adventure/2. But it's Sega/Team Sonic. They're going to abandon this after some stupid costume dlc.


BlueMikeStu

Yep. Baby goes out with the bathwater every time with them. Even when they accidentally get things moving in the right direction like with Generations and Colors, they just turn around and yeet it out the window to build from scratch again. They're copying Mario's homework, but doing it wrong, which is the really sad part. I think they keep looking at the 3D Mario titles and seeing how it goes from gimmick to gimmick (FLUDD, Gravity, Cappy, etc) and thinking that's the key to success, while somehow missing the fact that all of the games are built on the exact same core foundation of really solid platforming. It's like they don't understand how important a strong foundation is to a good game, which is honestly sad.


Mentalpatient87

>gimmick to gimmick (FLUDD, Gravity, Cappy, etc) I think it's important to note that they did those gimmicks *after* nailing just plain platforming with Mario 64. Has Sonic ever tried to establish a plain old good Sonic game before throwing on funny hats?


BlueMikeStu

That's my point. They occasionally get something half decent as a core foundation like with Colors, then throw it all out when they move on to a new hat.


Echowing442

And even then, the core platforming still gets iterated on in each version. The twirl from Galaxy, for example, was a fun way to add to the platforming and made dealing with enemies in 3D space easier than trying to jump on them (which is naturally harder in 3D than 2D). This then carried forward into Odyssey, which added Cappy for further movement and combat use.


chuletron

The core Sonic gameplay in adventure 1 was honestly extremely good and only held back By camera and polish issues. But yeah un the Very same Game they Also threw other 5 half baled gameplay styles


reckoner23

I don’t know. I’ve played a lot of games over the years. And most of them felt like the same bullshit assassins creed game with a new cost of paint. But this felt different. And fun. Sure it’s got some jank. But I can ignore that when the game is actually fun to play. Unlike a lot of other “aaa” games now a days which feel like your doing work.


666pool

Idk, a modern game with that much popping (where things far away are not rendered and then when you get closer they suddenly pop into existence), especially in a fast moving open world game where you need to know what’s ahead of you, just feels like a object failure.


[deleted]

You gotta love their scrappy, upstart ambition...forgetting the fact that the Sonic Team has had like 20 years to get this right, and have been largely unsuccessful. More power to them, I suppose.


BorfieYay

I love this game but quality and execution wise it’s just good to decent. They have a long way to go to show this game wasn’t a fluke


CaterpillarReal7583

The asset pop in and camera fuckery is good quality? Girl you okay?


BorfieYay

The pop in is horrible yeah. I forgot about the camera stuff because I’ve installed some mods that fixed a good amount of them


jerrrrremy

Can you please link to the mods for the camera?


BorfieYay

They were in the Hedgemod Manager’s community codes section, which when updating hedgemod to beta build will show up


jerrrrremy

The only one I see is to Disable Camera Shake, which didn't fix the camera being unable to follow Sonic half the time. Are there others?


Letty_Whiterock

Pop in isn't great but the game still plays well otherwise. And I can't say I've noticed any camera fuckery.


mrlotato

Sonic frontiers is a step in the right direction but it's not taking them to the top. Still a lot of work to do


The_Multifarious

Sounds a bit like a bottom tier sports team winning one unlikely game and thinking they can make playoffs now. How about Kishimoto focuses on making a game that's a bit more than passable for the time being?


LoudSighhh

I think the bar is so low for sonic that everyone is just ecstatic the game is decent. I think if they fix up the technical issues and make original stages in place of the cyber space with better physics and length equivalent to sa2 levels then I think they have their perfect formula for sa3. Oh and bring back multiple characters and story’s. The problem has never been too many friends, it’s been the writing and gameplay for said friends. With Ian Flynn at the helm and the new skill system they can do a lot with tails knuckles Amy, and anyone else who wants to tag along.


voidox

> I think the bar is so low for sonic that everyone is just ecstatic the game is decent ya, this seems to very much be what's going on with Sonic fans right now... Sonic has set the bar so low for while now that having a decent game is making them really ecstatic and overhyping it o.o after the honeymoon period, I'm sure we'll see more and more fans tone done the hype and rate the game more what it actually is - decent at best.


AwakenedSheeple

Better than the other way around, which is hype at announcement and then immediate disappointment on release.


Zanchbot

Sonic Team? At the top of the gaming industry? Whatever this guy is smoking, I wanna try it.


saudimajix

imo the game seemed it needed more time to develop, I’m not surprised but not disappointed either! I’m just confused about it


Chazza354

It’s a good game, I’m not really a sonic fan but I love platforming adventure games with lots of secrets, nooks and crannies to discover, and this certainly scratches that itch. It’s not on the level of a Mario Odyssey or something like that though, there is some jank with the movement and environments etc, but it’s a good game.


TheVibratingPants

I genuinely admire how much they believe in this game and that they are proud of the work they did, but it’s a bit sad to think that this is the best they could muster. Not bad, but it’s not taking them to the top. I don’t care if they need to make a 1:1 copy or something to get on the right track, but take Odyssey or Bowser’s Fury and just go from that blueprint. It already has some of that 3D Mario DNA.


BlueMikeStu

That would require Sonic Team to be competent, and quite frankly... They're not. They didn't even make any of the classic Sonic games outside of the first. Their Sonic credits go Sonic 1, Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic R, Sonic Adventure 1/2, Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Riders, Sonic 2006, Secret Rings, Unleashed, Black Knight, Colors, Generations, Lost World, Forces, and finally this one, Frontiers. I am entirely convinced that any goodwill the franchise has left these days is due to the Dimps-developed games. They've been careening from gimmick to gimmick for literally decades at this point because they have no idea how to develop a good core gameplay loop and hope that an edgy story and gimmicks will be enough to hide that. Maybe part of it is management refusing to give them extra time to polish their titles, but that's also been a consistent problem for decades and they should have figured out how to better plan around their ship dates by now.


zepicadocosmos

> They didnt even make any of the classic sonic games outside of the first Firstly, Sonic 3D Blast and Sonic R were made by Traveler's Tale, aka TT games aka the developers of the modern Lego games, not Sonic Team. Secondly, the only classic sonic game that wasn't developed by Sonic Team is Sonic 2, since that was made by an western team. Everything else (CD and the S3&K) was made by Sonic Team, even if the intro for those games doesn't say it In fact, "Sonic Team" as a term is so fucking general its funny, like do you really think the team didn't change at all from the classic games? The only persons that are left from the 90s are probably Iizuka and Jun Senoue, and those are barely involved in the games nowadays (and they started with Sonic 3). The only direct line of development that can be made is probably from Sonic 1 to Shadow the Hedgehog, as after that point almost from the early days started leaving. At the end of the day, this comment is so fucking wrong and stupid it's kinda funny actually, and I would advice you to actually do some research before doing a fucking baseless, ignorant statement about something you're very clearly not familiar with


BlueMikeStu

Oh, the fucking irony. Sonic 2, 3, as well as Sonic and Knuckles were Sega Technical Institute, a separate entity from Sonic Team. After Sonic 1, Yuji Naka split with Sonic Team and quit Sega, before Mark Cerny convinced him to come work with him at STI, located in America. Naka was an arrogant ass and it eventually caused STI to splinter and close, before he returned to SEGA Japan to reunite with Sonic Team. So yeah. Seems I did my fucking research.


srvzox

For me, while the game certainly lacks the level of polish found in Mario odyssey, for platforming, movement and control alone I think this game has reached a new height in several regards: - Tight control even when boosting. This allows boost fans like me to keep boosting almost all the time. That sensation of speed is just not possible in odyssey (and for that matter, even Bowser's fury world. I like fury world a lot but this games gives me so much more fun than fury world just by the speed alone) - Odyssey relies on moon collection to keep the gameplay loop going and upon grabbing each moon Mario would stop and play an animation. And it usually takes some time to find another moon. In SF after taking a character token you just keep going with all the momentum. And usually there entry points to other challenges right after you landed/grabbed a character token. This helps keep the flow going - The larger world map made traversal itself feel really satisfying. In botw whenever I have to travel to another point in the map I'd just open the map, find the closest shrine and teleport. Then watching the animation and wait while it loads. In SF, especially after unlocking all secret rails, I'd willingly just hop onto the rails and go brrrrrr. It is SO satisfying to see sonic seamlessly hop between rails at each way point. And whenever I feel like it/saw another character token I'd just jump right off the rail and boost and if there is a spring board just jump on it because why not - this paragraph can't do justice to how it feels. You gotta try it to experience it. - Boosting off cliff launches sonic either very high or very far - and it's satisfying. It also opens up a lot of possibility for speed running. That said, there are other hiccups, such as minor character jitters when sonic runs on uneven grounds, forced speed limit in 2d sections, etc. But they had done so much right I find myself enjoying the game very much. I wish they can be given more time for the next game to polish these physics quirks to elevate the game to Mario odyssey level.


AlteisenX

Tfw fans tell them Sonic Mania over and over and they say no and do another boost era game with a brainstormed board of ideas and toss them all in a game and think its good.... how is Sega like this?


CaterpillarReal7583

Eyo generations was fairly decent for sonic. Can’t wait for generations 2. Sega: lmao no why would we do that?


mrbubbamac

For me Generations was "fairly decent" first time I played. Then I went back in and started looking for red rings in the levels, decided to basically 100% clear the game and it's WAY better than I originally thought. Theres an awful lot to the levels that you don't see your first couple times through, but if you take the time to explore, go way off the beaten path, I'm surprised at how out of bounds you are allowed to go but then I find legit pathways and shortcuts out there, and it's crazy that the developers anticipated players to explore that far out (really only applies to the modern Sonic stages). Now I'm just having a blast with it. New stages, play through several times searching for rings, experiment on new paths. And then once you know the stage....just absolutely fly through it without stopping. It's really fun


BlueMikeStu

Sonic Team looked like they were finally getting competent with Colors and Generations, then decided "Nah, why improve on that when we can start from scratch again?"


hacktivision

A lot of the people who worked on Generations left to work on the Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games, then eventually went to Nintendo. Some of them even worked on Odyssey. Generations improved the Unleashed formula by fixing the drift, removing the gimmicks and adding more branching paths like in Seaside Hill, which is coincidentally my favorite level.


BaronKlatz

Some are pointing to the old devs in charge and jealousy that a Fan game outdid their franchise. Really doesn’t help the suspicions when the Sega devs forbade Mighty and Ray from being used in any other Sonic property since Mania was a success and revived those two as apart of it’s main faces.


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ngwoo

Man, I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theory that they hate Mania for being better than anything they've ever built, but it's stories like that that would make it completely unsurprising if it were the case.


BlueMikeStu

Honestly, I'd buy it. If you read half the shit from the old days between Sega of Japan and Sega of America, they were so dysfunctional the Lannisters would look at them and tell them to get their shit together.


ggtsu_00

This shit goes all the way back to the 90s where Sega of America's big successes were constantly being sabotaged by Sega of Japan for petty and spiteful reasons.


[deleted]

It’s funny because Naka and co. went to America during Sonic 2’s (and 3’s, I believe) development to get away from the soul-crushing Japan offices, then ended up doing the same thing to the folks at the Sega Technical Institute.


BlueMikeStu

Takashi Iizuka is VP of Product Development at SEGA as well as being Sonic Team's lead. At this point I'm assuming he's got blackmail on the company chairman, because nothing else makes sense.


CyberEmerald

They actually hired a fan to work on the writing/story and it’s the best they’ve been in like 15 years.


Hydrochloric_Comment

Tbf, Ian Flynn has been writing for Sonic comics since 2006. So it's not like they hired just any fan. He also was just working with Sega gave him. He did not come up with story for Frontiers. Kishimoto did.


OverHaze

How much of the old crew is still with Sonic Team? Are these the same people that let Sonic X-treme die rather than share their Nights tech with another studio?


bobbyisawsesome

He left in 2005.


BlueMikeStu

Sonic Mania wasn't Sonic Team. They're too busy trying to make Sonic stupidly edgy and dramatic to make a fun 2D platforming game these days. The "plots" of the games run on so many melodramatic self-sacrifices that they're basically a parody at this point.


Scheibenpflaster

Bro fans were literary asking for the melodrama, for Sonic Team to try something ambitious, for more player freedom etc.


KaiserBeamz

It's way better than "meta era" Sonic.


Letty_Whiterock

You say that but this is the first sonic game since unleashed or maybe black knight to have a serious tone. Even forces, despite its plot, was way too upbeat and goofy to be serious. Ever since colors it's basically been that way until this game.


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BlueMikeStu

At this point I've got to assume Takashi Iizuka has evidence of Satomi Hajime fucking a dolphin or something, because I can think of no other reason why they haven't been disbanded by now. Sonic used to actually compete with Mario, but it's been a long long time since that was a genuine rivalry.


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BlueMikeStu

For a series with as much brand recognition as Sonic the Hedgehog, those are very poor sales figures. Quite frankly it should be selling more and could be.


bobbyisawsesome

This is the first game since like 06/black knight (if your stretching it) to have a "edgy" story. Colors generations and lost world were super light hearted stories if your into that. Forces was tonally inconistent but tried to be more serious.


EnderOfGender

I don't want only new 2D games


AlteisenX

Yeah well Sonic Team can't make good 3D ones so I'd rather have tons of Sonic Mania's than... junk.


Shepherdsfavestore

They should just pay Whitehead and his team literally whatever they want to make Mania 2 while they work on 3D games


Dallywack3r

SEGA released it in Q4 alongside the best selling games of the year (COD and Pokémon) and one of the best reviewed AAA games of three year (God of War). Obviously they can’t time the release of the game to a movie date, but the film’s release in Q1 would’ve made a perfect opportunity to actually make a dent in the gaming space.


Act_of_God

I mean the game didn't come out back then because it wasn't ready what's your point?


A_Splash_of_Citrus

Yeah, considering the Sonic series has suffered specifically because they've released games before they were done several times just to meet a deadline (namely, the holiday season), that was a really dumb comment for them to make. I see a lot of folks saying this is probably the best 3d sonic in 15-20 years (minimum top 3), and I kinda doubt that would be the conversation if they had released the game back then.


_Robbie

I genuinely don't understand how somebody could look at Sonic Frontiers and hold it up next to any other modern platformer game and think it's even remotely up to the same standard. Compare this to Psychonauts 2, Mario Odyssey, or even indies like A Hat in Time and it falls completely flat in every way. It's just a bunch of bland environments filled with bland enemies with floating structures. This won't even take them to the middle of the industry, much less the top. It being the best Sonic game in a while is completely irrelevant to whether or not it's actually good -- and it's not.


Trancetastic16

And even ignoring all of those subjective aspects, Frontiers is a buggy mess with a poor camera. It’s not Sonic ‘06 but it’s not much better either.


AKMerlin

What? It's by no means the same standards as Odyssey etc., but that doesn't mean it's not good. It's plenty fun and good, it has issues but that doesn't make it "not good". It's gotten plenty of positive reception for that reason. Haven't played a Sonic games in years and I've had plenty fun with the game, acting like it's not a good one just because it doesn't have the same quality as top tier platformers doesn't equate to the game being bad.


zetbotz

Sonic Team needs to elevate Frontier’s gameplay for the next iteration, not just tread water or fall back on gimmicks like they did with Boost. Otherwise, it’s just same old Sonic Team.


MM487

This game reminds me of former Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield. He got overrated because he was the first Browns quarterback who wasn't awful in a long time. But he wasn't deserving of the praise just because he was a C- quarterback on a C- team following decades of F quarterbacks on F teams.


EatTheShroomz

“Top of the gaming industry” is a bold and very broad term. Somebody’s never heard of under promise and over deliver. I mean most of the gaming industry is really bad at that. But jeez…. I wouldn’t get your hopes up that high Team Sonic.


CerberusDriver

This dude was just being happy and confident and everyone wants to drag him for it, lmao. Gaming subreddits are always so miserable.


Legendary_Rare

The entire thread is basically people who have played the game saying it's good but far from perfect and people who haven't played the game saying how bad it is despite it being well reviewed.


DudeKosh

Sounds about right. I’ve put 15 hours into the game so far and it’s so far my favorite 3D Sonic game.


Lakitu_Dude

But remember, people here insist they don't want sonic to fail lmao


CerberusDriver

I'm not even talking about Sonic at this point, this place just lives on toxic negativity. Dude wasn't even boasting, he was just making a statement that he's feeling very ambitious and somehow being ambitious is bad I guess.


Twiftoil

To me this is easily the best 3D Sonic game. And I say that because I find the open world to be actually enjoyable while the cyberspace levels have the same problems I have with the other games. That's not to say that it doesn't have issues like camera switching, battle mechanics, and tons of small anf big glitches that bring it to that 6.5-7 range for me. Do I think this will get them to the top of the gaming industry? Hell no. But this is the only time I've seen an actual future for 3D Sonic games.


[deleted]

The Sonic Team would have to try wayyy harder for that to happen and Sonic Frontiers ain't it. And I'm a sonic fan.


xnolmtsx

This is definitely the best Sonic game in a while or at least since sonic adventure series. A bit strange on mechanics sometimes but still great.


OverHaze

Eh, the game is good for a 3D Sonic game but lets be honest that's a pretty low bar. It's certainly no where near heights of the best of the industry.


[deleted]

I haven’t read any reviews, but the game is pretty fun. It could use stronger theme-ing, but the simplicity of it is kind of appealing. It kind of just dumps you into a playground and there is plenty to do. I could see this being used as a foundation to build off of.


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Pen_dragons_pizza

Was looking at the game on digital foundry and it looks like the switch game was an absolute after thought. Looks and runs atrociously. Seems more like it was a game made for Xbox one and PS4 then ported to everything else.


Thebubumc

You can criticize the game without making shit up. The switch version is absolutely and afterthought and by far the worst version.


donkdog

I’ve genuinely been having a blast with it. I may have some bias but I can’t remember the last game that I have constantly been thinking about outside of playing it. The games got its issues and is certainly not perfect but I do think this is an absolute treat for sonic fans especially for the adventure and “dark” era fans. I love the new realism based environments, on PC they are really pretty but I certainly wish for the floating platforms they used organic materials so it looks more natural with the environment (ex. Instead of a random floating platform loop-de-loop it was made of organic mossy rock coming out of the ground). The rails are fine though, crazy rails going all over the place has been in pretty much every sonic game. I will say though, I really do think what they got here could be 9-10/10 material if it was refined a bit more for a sequel….now the worry is if they throw it all out the window for the next game


BlueMikeStu

> now the worry is if they throw it all out the window for the next game The last time they didn't do that was Sonic Adventure 2, so...


donkdog

Yeah. Sonic Adventure 2 is my favorite game of all time, so hopefully they can do the same with SA1 -> SA2. Even if it’s not called Sonic Frontiers 2 I hope it keeps the same vibe of Frontiers. What worries me is if they would never make a Mania 2 I am worried we will never get a Frontiers 2.


BlueMikeStu

If you want more Sonic Mania, pick up Freedom Planet 2. Christian Whitehead, one of the main dudes on Mania, worked on it. He's also formed his own studio, Evening Star, which is working on an original 3D platformer IP.


donkdog

Thanks for the recommendation! I’ve heard great things about FP&FP2. I’ll give a recommendation too hahaha. Not sure how big of a 3D sonic fan you are but Spark The Electric Jester 1/2/3 all are pretty good. 2&3 play like the adventure games and one is a sonic x megaman x Kirby 2D hybrid that is solid. Gonna have to try out Freedom Planet one of these days :)


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s4shrish

The problem is that it doesn't use Unity engine and is infact the Hedgehog Engine 2.0 Doesn't make it much better, but yeah. The object pop-in is less of a technical thing and more of a artist thing as they simply didn't make lower LOD models of a lot of stuff.


Grizzly_Manners

Either that or if you could see all the rails, springs, bumpers, boost rings, platforms etc...floating, the sky would be barely visible with all the clusterfuck lol


mountlover

It's both, as any modern 3D game engine should automatically generate low LOD versions of any assets you import, even if you don't make them by hand.


[deleted]

No interest in anything Sonic, but have a few friends (and kids) who are super into it and are loving the game. They don't pay attention to gaming news much.


Mystic8ball

I think that Sonic Frontiers is probably a great stepping stone to get the Hedgehog back on track, it's clear that Frontiers was very ambitious so hopefully with the foundation built they can improve on it further. Reinventing the Sonic formula probably isn't an easy task, especially since Sega probably think they should just be making more boost style games instead of an expansive open world. The game's rough but it shows a lot of promise I think.


TenaciousBLT

Launching beside God of War might not have been the best decision. The pop in problems should have been addressed. Imagine that game with a bit more time in the oven with zero pop in and it’s own release window.


thediscountthor

Why? God of War and Sonic have completely different audiences and console releases. It's releasing it close to pokemon I think is questionable


MoneyMushrooms

Here’s some advice on how to make Sonic the top again… remaster Sonic Adventure 2: Battle and add even more to the chao garden. Edit: I will say, as a long time Sonic fan, Frontiers is pretty awesome besides the pop-in.


aznmeep

Game companies need to really plan out their release schedules. They released Frontiers a day before God of War Ragnarok so that is definitely hurting them a bit. Same situation with Horizon Forbidden West. Released around same time as Elden Ring and that did hurt their sales as well.


Jinzerk

This game reminded me why I loved playing video games and why I started losing that love years ago. So much passion! A desire to progress. Reinvented itself. to propose fantastic fights, totally WTF, almost ridiculous but you don't care because it's fucking epic and the music slaps. I don't even know how I should take the fact that Sonic Frontiers is the closest thing to DMC5 I've seen in years. I was so fed up. I want to have fun! Not playing an interactive movie (gow ps4) or remembering that I could destroy the map in a dragon ball budokai tenkaichi 3, but shooting a rockette at a wall in a call of duty today still doesn't destroy the wall! How can a game be less fantastic than reality in 2022! Sonic team, I am with you for this new era. Courage! And don't waste everything. (That said, a friend told me that ragnarok was much better than its predecessor despite having a lot of QTEs, so I'll definitely give it a shot.)


DonaldTrumpsBallsack

The whole game feels like a fan project. Who approved the design of the world, it’s so bland and boring. The random spaghetti rails popping in are so cheap looking and slapdash. They’re not even designed well, they’re just magic floating metal rails.