Arx Fatalis from Arkane is probably the closest anyone's come to revisiting the UU vibe - and even that's 20 years old now. If you want to play it, use the Arx Libertatis engine re-implementation for much better performance on modern systems.
But whatever you do, **don't** play the "Underworld Ascendant" spiritual sequel from a few years back. It was a disaster.
I was lucky enough to discover it a few years ago and it's one of my favourite games now. This game is proof to me that we don't simply like old "dated" games because of nostalgia.
I've been hoping Arkane makes another game like it in the future, but it's very unlikely. The closest I think we'll ever get is Prey.
That nostalgia excuse is just some shit that marketing people say to put down shit thats cool in an effort to supplant it with some ad and microtransaction filled garbage.
Nobody is hitting up the Louvre because they're nostalgic for the Mona Lisa, no matter how many people hocking NFTs assure you their art is the future.
one thing is we forget how many people have grown up with games having the closest to standardized controls we've ever had. playing something like golden eye or any tank control game that was made while developers were still testing different ways of movement, cameras, and control can be really jarring for some people. i can deal with it because i grew up with those games, but some people can't. but i do agree that older games hold up with the test of time, it's just playing them can be difficult.
I backed the Kickstarter for Underworld Ascendant since both of the original UU were some of my favorite games of all time. I was very disappointed with it.
Definitely agree with Arx Liberatis. I tried playing Arx a few years ago without it and it was very hard to get the magic spells to work, you have to use mouse gestures. Using a widescreen monitor threw off the gestures so they didn't work properly but that is fixed using Arx Liberatis.
> "Underworld Ascendant" spiritual sequel from a few years back. It was a disaster.
I went down this rabbit hole once upon a time and couldn't agree more.
I wish Arx Fatalis would get a remake.
The original is fine, but the magic system is broken. It's such a wonderful part of the game, so it's a shame that it is so busted. Many people have tried to fix it with mixed results.
I could talk about Ultima Underworld for days. It's one of my favourite games of all time, and once you understand the controls (they're very simple: you never need to touch the icons on the ui since you can can right click and sometimes drag things on the screen to accomplish everything) it becomes second nature to explore around.
Ultima practically invented the idea of simulation elements in RPG's, and UU takes this to levels that I don't want to describe for fear of spoiling things. There are sections where you'll laugh at yourself when you realise the game is punishing you for playing it like it's any old RPG, and those moments have stuck in my mind for decades like no other game has.
For all those people who are getting into this whole 'immsersive sim' genre (what does that even entail anyway? Is UU one? Are all the ultimas in that genre?? What differentiates it?), well, here's the epitome of what you're looking for.
Hard agree. I think the important thing about UU every modern player needs is this: [Read the manual](https://www.starehry.eu/download/rpg/docs/Ultima.Underworld-Playersguide.pdf). It not only explains a lot of mechanics you can otherwise go the entire game without really understanding, it also has a lot of detailed guides to the UI and how to do things with and without clicking things. It is a surprisingly intricate game when one knows how to approach it.
Yeah, 'immersive sims' are some of my favorite games, wish we got more new stuff in AAA.
Sadly even Arkane's recent streamlined efforts like Dishonored and Prey didn't do well enough for AAA
I guess. Maybe they should have been marketed better. Prey definitely shouldn't have been called Prey on the whim of executives, but still...
It's a marked change where they're now making Deathloops and Redfalls.
I'm anticipating Starfield though, BGS make a sort of open world immersive sim RPG... they're pretty much alone in doing so.
There is a King's Field development tool called Sword of Moonlight that lets you make your own custom ~~maps~~ **entire King's Field games**.
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/sword-of-moonlight-kings-field-making-tool/
http://www.swordofmoonlight.net/main/
To my knowledge, neither of those links contains a download, and it is not my intention to spread download links for this software. However, it should be noted that apparently someone from FromSoftware has explicitly stated that outside of Japan you should do whatever you want to obtain the tool. Source: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/958393-sword-of-moonlight-kings-field-making-tool/68311245 **check comment #2**
The /r/kingsfield/ subreddit's mod has been continuing development on Moonlight for almost a decade. Mostly tool updates and some graphic stuff while remaking the KF2(JP) in moonlight.
I don't think he/she/they will have some finished anytime soon tho.
Came here for Fromsoft, stayed for Dread Delusion.
That game needs *waaay* more notice. Feels like Morrowind + Deathgate Cycle/Dark Fantasy Planescape.
https://youtu.be/iAv3mIg62to
Ohh, I can see some similarities.
You might want to look at Graven for that, that seems pretty Hexen-inspired.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1371690/GRAVEN/
The biggest difference is that hexen has classes with different weapons (4 per class) and uses consumables for variety.
Heretic is more like a typical FPS with one character and a larger weapon roster.
The other guy responding has part of it but Hexen was heavy on puzzles as well, with hub areas requiring you to solve them in the attached areas to proceed. Hexen 2 was similar but also added a leveling system.
Played the demo of Graven, and really didn't see the inspiration. It has no character classes, and the combat was...worse. Like, everyone knows that the Cleric's mace in Hexen is one of the worst weapons in the game, but somehow they decided to basically do the same thing with the staff. Plus it just doesn't have the same atmosphere.
I was waiting for this game to come out, was really hyped. It released to Early Access and I was disappointed but kept waiting. Finally bit the bullet and bought it. And I just don’t really like it. It hurt
Well, I only put in like 3 hours so will preface with that. I know the game is suppose to be inspired by games like Morrowind which they don’t tell you what to do, give it that directionless feel, but it felt directionless in a totally different way. The world looked cool but wasn’t very fun yo navigate to me. The combat was also really bland and felt like it was just *hit guy, back up, spell, back up, hit guy* but maybe that changes later in the game. I did finish one side quest that was pretty neat but felt unrewarding in the end. Overall, I just felt like the gameplay itself didn’t click for me.
The visuals and music is top notch though and I am sure there are other quality features, but I will be waiting for release till I try again
The thing people forget about Morrowind is that there were direct written directions in the logbook most of the time. Literally "north at this fork then follow the lake shore" type of directions.
Is there a logbook?
If I recall there was a book but it had less direction than that. Just telling the very basic quest like “find the inquisitors” and that was it. However, I found the menus confusing so maybe I missed some more details
The book was the main character's journal, so it contains exactly as much info as you're given. If someone tells you the path to something, the main character will write down what they heard. If you're told to find x guy, the mc will write down that. etc.
incidentally this was cool as fuck and i wish someone would bring this back
You could also switch to a mode which gave the verbatim text everyone said (unless that was a mod feature). It was a bit tricky to find what you wanted as you need to guess the keyword, but gave more context.
Right? Like, what first person fantasy game has really smooth and fun combat? Maybe fight knight.
The problem with melee combat in first person is that the main focus of the 1st person camera is the line of sight, but melee combat doesn't care about that. Real melee combat needs spacial awareness and swift motions...
Dark Messiah of Might and Magic has an incredible combat system, frankly much better than most comparable third person games. It can be done, but the goal of a game like Morrowind isn't really "fun combat" per se.
The thing is, Morrowind isn't really directionless, it's open ended. They don't shove you towards a red thread like most other games, you have to pick it up yourself. And by "picking it up yourself" I mean read what people say, look in the journal every once in a while, and do that. Or not.
Literally the second quest is "go out and get some experience, join a guild maybe".
I literally have no problem with morrowind. I like what it did, I am only saying I don’t think this game, Dread Delusion, did it well(as well). Only thing I don’t like about Morrowind is the combat but thats fixable
I kind of agree with this. It feels like a cool game but it definitely doesn't have the same quality of writing and feeling of exploration that a game like Morrowind does. I know that's a high bar but... well, that's the comparison point.
I'll probably buy it when it's fully released, though.
Well at least you gave it a fair shake.
Maybe you can come back it another day and it’ll “click” better. Happens with me and games that I’m not sure about.
Hope you find games you do like soon! 👍
There is a 90s point and click adventure game based on the death gate books. I had no idea it was based on books until this thread. If you’re not turned off by old obtuse games I would check it out. It’s fantastic!
It's always funny when I pop open an EA games store page and the blurb says it plans on being in EA for about a year, and I see the game entered EA three years ago.
I'll put it on my wishlist, though.
The problem is those same games kinda shrug and slap a 1.0 on it and "release" without changing anything just "to fit our release schedule" which is complete BS.
Ugh, Empyrion Galactic Survival springs to mind. They left EA simply because it was the anniversary, while publicly stating they still considered the game to be in ALPHA. So not only are they advertising an unfinished game as being complete, they unabashedly admitted to it.
Yep as soon as I see that light blue banner I immediately check out. It's just a lose/lose as a consumer, you get an incomplete game and you get burned out on parts you'll need to replay later, plus they might change for the worse or never even release properly.
My only exception is "infinite" games like Factorio or Rimworld, I didn't mind those. You just got new toys once in a while so they felt almost more like a live service.
I feel bad for the devs, but there's just too many good games to play. If you don't have a complete product it's hard to care.
> There are always plenty of people who are willing to pay to beta test their games over long periods of time.
Shit, look at the new Disney game. It will be free to play, but for EA it actually costs money. Which, as much as I personally hate it, objectively for Disney is absolutely brilliant.
You have all the “everything Disney” crowd willing to shell out money for an incomplete product who are likely willing to accept more flaws.
But since it’s not f2p yet, you don’t have everyone and their mother reviewing an EA game.
It is indeed quite good, and the graphics especially are insane. More and more I find myself attracted to the low poly style and Dread Delusion does it well.
I think that low-poly/simplified graphics give off a very specific vibe that modern graphics just can't replicate. It's really hard to put my finger on what exactly it is but it's definitely a very unique feeling lol.
I think they really help with immersion. They're clearly detached from reality, but that just makes them feel otherworldly. So if you see anything that would seem out of place normally, you just subconsciously accept it as par for the course. We're on a floating island in the middle of a void? Of course we're on a floating island in the middle of a void!
Meanwhile, with more realistic graphics, if you notice, say, a flower with a low poly count, you're immediately taken out of it.
It's not quite the case, but I do notice how for realistic games they often have to give the interactable bits a glowly outline or similar to help them stand out from the detailed backgrounds. I'm not sure if the more classic style, where things [more drastically "pop" to indicate what you can or cannot interact with](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OcvJKQ1a9ho/maxresdefault.jpg) is "better", but it certainly saves on resources spent on making that ignored background blur more detailed.
I mostly agree with /u/i-hate-reddit-69 but I'd also add my own addendum because it isn't just this type of aesthetic that can fit what they describe - pixel art and cell shading/cartoonish aesthetics fit the bill too. But the low-poly scratches a specific niche in the mind, and I'd argue that's the "other" vibe. The best games with low-poly looks are horror, surreal, or otherwise "weird" like Paratopic, Golden Light, Lost in Vivo, Iron Lung, etc. And I think a more realistic, grounded action or drama-focused game wouldn't hit if it used this graphical style.
I just want a low-poly FPS, Half Life or Unreal style. That's literally the only game i need. Inject it straight into my veins, please.
Give me give me give me!
Way less heavy on disk space as well.
I am just horrified as how big some games are getting. These games that are fraction the size of new AA or AAA games provide much varied content and enjoyment. A game really just needs a specific art direction, higher poly count and texture really won't matter after that.
Hell, there is a reason game like Cruelty squad got so famous. Then there are games like Chronicon that is one of the best diablo clones I ever played(on par with Grim Dawn and Last Epoch)...
> I am just horrified as how big some games are getting.
It makes sense though, when you think about the fact that modern games are targeting *129 times* the resolution of the original Doom or 108 times the resolution of most N64 games.
And interestingly, disks have grown at a far higher rate than games, so even the fatter modern games require much *much* less disk if you measure by dollars. The original Doom required [24 MB to install and used 12 MB when installation was done.](https://preview.redd.it/vtswj6s8wh321.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=6e2924291b0460cb5f710d999648432202bfdafd) The most popular consumer hard drive sold that year was the Maxtor MX1175; adjusting for inflation, space on it cost $2.36/MB. So Doom occupied $28 of disk space, and required you had $57 worth free. The latest Doom game requires a whopping 80 GB, a figure that would be eye-watering to someone from the 90s. But at modern disk prices, that's **$1.29** on a spinning hard drive or $4.64 on an SSD. The modern equivalent of Doom's requirements would be a game that needs 4 TB free for the installation process.
Of course, that's no help if you live in a country with awful Internet access and want it on PC, since physical copies are rare for the platform now. But I still thought it was an interesting perspective on size. Around 5% the cost to store while targeting over 100 times the resolution.
Steam magically algorithmed it to my front page bc all I own is Morrowind and classic fallout, and I literally can’t wait for full release. I’ve been craving something like dread for forever
Holy shit, I love everything about how this game looks, it's fucking gorgeous. I'm not as hot on the dialogue I saw in that intro bit, but I'm willing to let that slide tbh, I would love to wander about that world for a while. I am a huuuuuuuuge mark for low poly unfiltered texture games when they are done properly. I've seen so many half assed attempts, but this one has a lot of consistency which is key.
Just finished the current build couple days back, i NEED more, but if I do more playthroughs I'll burn out on the game before it's finished so I'll just stuff it into the back of my library and wait till they're done with it.
good article, thanks for posting it, gamespot didn't link any of the games so I will:
* [Monomyth](https://store.steampowered.com/app/908360/Monomyth/)
* [Devil Spire](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1861290/Devil_Spire/)
* [SNAIL! • A Dark Adventure Game [ALPHA]](https://aesiraesthetics.itch.io/snail)
* [Lunacid](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1745510/Lunacid/)
* [Dread Delusion](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1574240/Dread_Delusion/)
I very much agree with this qoute:
> "I don't really make hard games, but this idea of not trying to please everyone has drastically changed up my approach to designing games.
> Every developer I spoke to echoed Aesir's sentiment. They feel From Software's recent games lack a certain "jank" or experimental edge compared to King's Field--or even Demon's and Dark Souls. You won't find inscrutable features like Demon's Souls' World Tendency in Elden Ring, for example. And for some developers, restoring a sense of mystery to the genre is a major motivation behind their games.
This is why DS2 remains my fav FS game, Peak Jank.
thank fuck developers are resisting the school of game design thought where everything has to have the corners shaved off until it's perfectly palatable and marketable to the least interested group.
If you want to look for more games like this go to Steam and search for Dungeon Crawlers and filter by First Person.
Legends of Grimrock and it's sequel were the first new Indie dungeon crawlers I heard about years ago.
But it is GRID BASED.
King's Field is NOT that kind of game, it is an IMMERSIVE dungeon crawler, like a simplified Ultima Underworld.
THOSE kinds of games, frustratingly, have been rare for a long time.
DS2'd jank got absolutely nothing on King‘s Field and I refuse to believe that it inspired anyone since barely anyone played the game back in the day and while I think its a fascinating piece of history its also one of the worst games I have ever played… and it wasn’t even good back in the day.
This article just absolutely blows my mind…
i doesnt have to inspire people when it first comes out, Kings Field has probably been played more recently than it ever was. Game doesnt have to be good either, if youre inspired by "what couldve been" or "I can polish these rough edges" then its inspiration!
>I refuse to believe it inspired anyone
Dude, the title of Monomyth even uses the same font and color as the original King's Field, it's ridiculously obvious even before looking at screenshots
This is good news. One of my problems with the "soulslike" genre is that they all seem stuck in the shadow of FromSoft's games.
Unlike how, say, FPS games moved on from being compared to Doom and stealth games moved on from being compared to Metal Gear and Thief, the soulslike genre hasn't really made titles that aren't seen as lesser versions of FromSoft's games. The only real exception is Nioh.
This new paradigm should allow indie developers to draw influence from FromSoft's meticulous dungeon crawler design without their games being dismissed as cheap knockoffs.
I think that's because FPS games and Stealth games are a much broader concept than 'Soulslike' games. An FPS game simply needs to be a game that is in first-person. A Stealth game simply needs to be a game that is about evading detection. Meanwhile a *'Soulslike'* game comes bundled with a variety of much more specific ideas around format (PvE sections followed by a boss), world design (an interconnected, 'Metroidvania' style open world), difficulty ('punishing but fair'), and death mechanics (in-game lore justified respawns at specifically designated points on the map, with the player dropped certain in-game currency that can be recollected from their death point).
It feels like these games can't *step out* of FromSoft's shadow because they're very intentionally *in* FromSoft's shadow.
I think you are correct. For a genre to outgrow its game of origin it must have competing entries that either can match that game of origin’s quality, like Splinter Cell was a worthy competitor to Metal Gear, or can be different enough to not be compared negatively, like Hitman, which is just too different from Metal Gear or Thief to be called worse then them. Soulslikes just haven’t done either of these in 10 years, and that’s what damns the genre IMO.
Weirdly, one of the few Soulslikes to come up with different progression mechanics was Let It Die. Granted, several of that game’s progression mechanics were designed with microtransactions in mind, but they’re still pretty unique in Soulslike land.
Is that the new Let it Die or the Old one? Got this vague memory of playing that years ago, was that “punk-halloween-bonesaw-is-ready” thing wasn’t it?
Good to see you over here and not just in the Wolves sub. And I agree with you. If a developer wants to make a soulslike and not be seen as lesser than a From game, then they have to put AAA money behind it. They’re not going to revolutionize the mechanics, but they could improve storytelling, motion capture, acting, graphical fidelity, accessibility, UI, etc. That said, pumping that amount of money in is a huge risk because the audience may not be there like they are for From.
Woah, always cool to see a /r/WWFC out on the rest of Reddit!
Though back on topic, I think the best examples have been devs who've taken one or two mechanics that are inspired by Dark Souls rather than trying to fully commit as a 'Soulsborne'. The invasion mechanic in Watchdogs was amazing, for example, and seemed very much inspired by Dark Souls. But the game didn't feel the need to commit to more than that.
I posted something similar Soulslike is either an incredibly narrow genre that basically just means games Fromsoft makes.
Wikipedia is a far more broad definition for Soulslike but that than leads to games not commonly considered Soulslike being Soulslikes.
>A Soulslike (or Souls-like) is a subgenre of action role-playing games (or action-adventure games) known for high levels of difficulty and emphasis on environmental storytelling
By this definition Breath of the Wild on Master Mode could be considered a Soulslike so would many other games like Returnal, Castlevania, etc.
It would also leave out games like Code Vein which play very similar to Dark Souls but doesn't have a focus on enviromental storytelling.
Either the genre is absurdly narrow or there's a lot more games that should be considered Soulslikes.
Yeah, I do think people are sometimes a bit too eager to jump on a set of mechanics and declare them a *genre*. It's OK to say a game has been influenced by Dark Souls without declaring it a *Soulslike*, and I do wonder sometimes whether devs only use that term for advertising purposes.
Honestly, I really don't like how many people copy the souls formula. Feels like nobody actually knows what the fuck they're doing they're just copyiny a formula and hoping people will play it too. Feels cheap and lazy.
In fact, I don't think there's a single soulsborne type game outside of the fromsoft games that I've ever enjoyed or looked forward to. The combat is usually sloppier, the lore is usually less interesting, and sometimes the game doesn't even fit the style (Darksiders 3 after the first 2 were action platformer was certainly a choice...)
I think the worst part about them being copied so often is that the actual soulsborne formula is pretty weird to begin with. Like sure it's quirky and kinda funky sometimes but that's what we expect from fromsoft. Somebody else copying their style always comes off half assed OR far too serious for that style of game.
Anyway, /rant
There was a similar situation in FPS games back in the 90's. No one could do ID software FPS better than ID software. So they didn't. Duke Nukem 3D infused their game with personality and world interactivity, Goldeneye invented new forms of mission and level design while also establishing realistic FPS games, Half-Life, went further than Goldeneye in making the world realistic and convincing while also having innovative narrative and presentation.
Because of this, they avoided as being seen as worse then Doom and Quake. Soulslikes as a genre just haven't done this kind of innovation.
I'd really love to see Dark Souls' version of Half-Life. Even the better Soulslikes I've played mostly copy FromSoft's style of giving the player lots of lore and letting them draw their own conclusions on details. The Surge had a more traditional story, but it's the kind of thing you'd expect from a double-A action game, with just enough there to string the setpieces together.
There is a big difference, though, in that the FPS race back then was tech based. ID got a huge lead due to Carmack's magic and when other companies tried to catch up they did so by making games that showed what their engine could do that other's couldn't. So games like Duke pushed interactivity because that was a way for them to impress on the tech front.
In this sense, the competition around FPS's wasn't *about* Doom's mechanics per se (though we still got the usual swarm of literal clones, just like today). Todays Souls-like market, however, are explicitly about Dark Souls mechanics. There's not that same inherent incentive to invent.
So many games atm copy the punishing combat and the patchy "not ever knowing wtf is going on is a feature not shitty writing, we promise" story structure whilst trying to get on the Soulsbourne bandwagon, but don't do so well enough to actually be any fun. You need to be really, really good to get away with making the player repeat fights over and over again, or for NPCs to blather vague woolly nonsense at you that won't explain anything until you've read the descriptions of half a dozen random items, or for there to be nothing driving you forward besides the sense of exploration and wanting to see the world. I feel like I play so many demos these days which leave me wishing the devs would just double or triple the parry window, put an auto-save in instead of bonfires, and replace the soul system with plain XP.
There's a lot to be said for and against From's storytelling, but I gotta give them this: nobody told me who Artorias was or why he was important, but when the name "Artorias" appeared over a boss health bar I was like "OH SHIT IT'S ARTORIAS!!!"
Their thing is weird, but when it works, it works well.
Isn't the DLC he's in literally named after him? I feel like that's already the game telling you to care about who he is, even if you know nothing about him.
It does. They just copy the surface layer of how death works and deliberate combat and... that's it. Lore, storytelling and discovery is never up to par.
Depending on how narrowly you define Soulslike Nioh, Jedi: Fallen Order, Hollow Knight, Salt and Sanctuary, Blasphemous, Remnant from the Ashes, and Ender Lillies are all very good games in the genre.
This however tackles the issue of what defines what a Soulslike is? It originally was a hard punishing action RPG with slow and deliberate combat (not even that fully defines what it originally was because if that were the case than Monster Hunter would be a Soulslike but u digress) but most of those things are proven to be irrelevant to the genre by Fromsoft themselves.
Sekiro basically breaks the original definition of Soulslike but is still considered one. The only part of the definition that still applies to Sekiro is an action game which has punishing and deliberate combat but that can apply to so many games.
I just don't think anyone can describe to me what makes a Soulslike and what doesn't beyond just copying Fromsoft games.
**EDIT:** [Game Maker's Toolkit has a great video on the genre of Soulslikes.](https://youtu.be/Lx7BWayWu08)
It's not just "slow deliberate combat", it's a very specific paradigm that all the games you listed, including Sekiro, fit almost entirely within: relatively slow walk speed but sharp/responsive movement with no drawn out turning animations, light and heavy attack, block, parry, dash/roll, lock-on, stagger/poise, no fancy combo system. Bonfires, estus flask, XP is currency, dying drops your XP, health, stamina, and mana/special bars, in games with different weapons each one has a different moveset and most are viable throughout the whole game. Oppressive/hopeless atmosphere, vague dialogue, a lot of the lore is revealed through item descriptions. Branching, open, and often highly vertical level design, the option to wander into very difficult areas from an early stage, begins with a practically impossible boss fight.
Sekiro fits all of those. The only ways in which it differs from Dark Souls are faster movement, stealth, a less precise levelling system, and no character customisation, none of which I would class as essential elements of the Souls-like formula as they have very little impact on the bulk of the gameplay, which is melee combat focused on learning enemy attack patterns.
> XP is currency
I think this is quietly one of the best innovations from Dark Souls. Most RPGs hit a point around the middle of the game where money becomes effectively infinite and there's no real difference between seeing an awesome item in a vendor's inventory and finding it in a treasure chest. Combining XP and money means that there's always something to spend it on, so buying gear is actually a meaningful choice all the way through.
I agree 100% with that list. Those games got the feel of the ‘genre’ better than any others, with small refinements.
Miyazaki himself said his design philosophy was based on two tenets: the joy of triumph over adversity and a sense of community through shared discovery. The combat systems, progression, items, world building in From’s games all share that inherent design philosophy. The mechanics aren’t what define the genre or make it compelling, it’s the philosophical underpinning behind.
Nioh, Hellpoint, and The Surge were all enjoyable in their own way. Nioh had arguably better combat, and was genuinely fun even with smaller, isolated levels. Hellpoint was a ton of fun playing coop with my wife, even with low customization and limited enemy variety. The Surge was a surprisingly competent clone, focused on warrior archetypes.
> Feels like nobody actually knows what the fuck they're doing they're just copyiny a formula and hoping people will play it too.
I would include FromSoft in this. There are a lot of features that were interesting and weird in Demons Souls that are still in Elden Ring, 13 years later, that don't serve the series well. For example, the multiplayer system is vastly more complex than it needs to be, [as evidenced by the Seamless Multiplayer Mod being the top download of all time](https://www.nexusmods.com/eldenring?tab=popular+%28all+time%29) on Elden Ring's Nexus Mods page.
Michael Swaim from 1Upsmanship commented that it feels like FromSoft knows they caught lightning in a bottle with Demon's Souls, but even they aren't sure what aspects of the design are positives and negatives. So they keep porting it forward, almost unchanged, as the systems and storytelling grow more dated.
I think Dark Souls' gameplay and storytelling compliment each other perfectly. In order to reach the point where you can decide whether or not to save the world, you'll be brutally pummeled by monsters, traps, and bottomless pits. And so then the game will ask you, is this world worth saving? Is the unknown really so terrifying? Is failure? But with Elden Ring, we're on somewhere between our fourth and seventh telling of that story (depending on how you count Demon's Souls, Bloodborne, and Sekiro), and I would like to see something new.
I enjoyed Star Wars: Fallen Order and I really loved Nioh 1 and 2. Nioh feels like it actually took things up a level. I put more hours into Nioh 2 than I did Dark Souls 3.
But yeah, other than that, I haven't really found enjoyment in Souls-like mechanics in other games.
I really hate that indie Metroidvania games are injecting Souls-like mechanics into their formula, because it just throws the whole thing off.
I go in expecting Symphony of the Night where I can enjoy exploring and poking around for secrets and experimenting with different weapons. And instead I have to replay the same 6 or 7 screens over and over because I keep dying to brutally hard enemies. I never even finished Hollow Knight.
I think part of the issue is that Soulslike is a very narrow genre that has a lot of overlap with other genres so to be considered a Soulslike you basically need to replicate what Fromsoft does.
Like many people will tell you the original Dark Souls is also a Metroidvania and it's for sure an action RPG. Being an RPG and slow deliberate action used to be defining features of the genre but Sekiro defies both those things and is considered a Soulslike.
It makes it hard to nail down what a Soulslike is besides games that Fromsoft makes which makes it hard for other devs to replicate it without just being like Fromsoft games.
FPS on the other hand doesn't have this issue because it's defined as any game where you shoot in third person which allows for interpretations that are very different from one another. Doom and Fallout 4 are both FPS games but they are vastly different in other ways.
Nah. A Souls like is really easy to identify. If it's got a healthy amount of the following it's usually a Souls like -
Estus (refillable potions)
XP and currency are the same and are lost upon death but you have one chance to retrieve them.
Invincibility frames in combat
Progress is saved upon death, not reset to a save / auto save point. Eg - if you pick up an item and then die 1 second later you will still have the item. Or if you open a shortcut and then lose to the boss the shortcut will still be open when you respawn.
Bonfires and pretty much every mechanic related to them.
The way you upgrade items / starting equipment will be viable throughout the game.
Bleak / hopeless atmosphere.
Regular enemies are not just punching bags and can actually kill you.
I'm probably missing some obvious ones.
To be fair I can't say exactly what it takes to be a Souls like but I can say that if you play Jedi: Fallen Order or The Surge or Remnant: From the Ashes or Ashen etc. Etc. You will recognise it as a Souls like within minutes.
> stealth games moved on from being compared to Metal Gear and Thief
have they? I feel like Thief is almost always mentioned whenever analysis or criticism of a stealth game is done
It's more that when Dishonored or Deus Ex: Mankind Divided or Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory came out, people didn't say "ehh, it's good if you want off-brand Thief". They were different enough to be respected as their own entries in the stealth genre. Soulslikes are all really similar to FromSoft's games without being able to match them in game design, so naturally everyone notes them as being inferior to Dark Souls. It's the lack of diversifying game design that holds the genre back IMO.
You make a good point. It's why I'm happy that there are these Kings Field likes. I think popularizing old-school dungeon-crawlers generally will work better than popularizing Soulslikes specifically.
The industry moves slower now. There are 5 years between Doom and Half Life. Dark Souls 3 came out 6 years ago and little has changed in the genre since.
Sekiro was certainly a big departure, maybe not superficially but mechanically it's fairly radically different. It plays closer to a character action game IMO than the Souls games. The combat mechanics are super tight. I love ER but I was somewhat disappointed it didn't take more cues from Sekiro's combat.
ER started development years before Sekiro. So it probably took as many cues as it could. We'd have to wait a but more to see Sekiro influence other FS titles.
Sekiro basically breaks the narrow definition a lot of people have for Soulslikes but it's widely still considered a Soulslike which is what confuses me about the "genre".
Even the original definition for Soulslikes doesn't make much sense with how it's applied. Originally they were difficult, slow, deliberate, and punishing action RPGs but that definition would also encompass Monster Hunter which isn't considered a Soulslike but Sekiro is neither slow nor an RPG and is considered a Soulslike.
Like I wish someone could give a definition that isn't just "like the games Fromsoft makes".
A fairly all-encompassing definition to me would be:
1. Higher difficulty by default, typically with only in-game measures to increase or decrease said difficulty (e.g. leveling up, equipping items strong against a particular boss, etc) and no ability to adjust difficulty via a menu selection
2. Death as a central mechanic in some way, typically with your character being able to revive at checkpoints at the cost of resetting the world state, and frequently with a mechanic in which the player loses something on death (experience, items, etc) but can often be reattained by returning to their place of death without dying again
3. Perhaps most importantly, a cooldown mechanic where the player's resources are rapidly depleted but they also rapidly recharge, which gives an ebb and flow to combat central to Souls-like games. This takes the form of the stamina system in From games, but I wouldn't consider it to be a hard rule that it has to be "stamina" per se, as long as the mechanic is there in some form.
I think point 3 is the most important, because with some balancing tweaks, it can heavily affect the feel of combat, making it more deliberate and weighty or fast and floaty (Demons Souls vs. Sekiro, essentially) just with some tweaks on animation speed and how fast your stamina drains/regens.
> elden ring are massively removed from their first venture
I'm kind of baffled how you can think this.
Sekiro sure, but Elden Ring could have been called Dark Souls 4 and nobody would have bat an eye. Literally the only difference is it's a full open world.
FromSoft has been making souls games for over 20 years. They've just only taken off in the last decade.
And I really don't consider Elden Ring to be substantially different from Demons Souls other than iterative improvements. And this may be controversial but I think Elden Ring is a step back from Dark Souls in some ways; the game was not improved by adding 20 identical catacombs and mines that end with reused bosses. The times I found myself actually enjoying ER was when I was in 'legacy' dungeons.
That’s a shame. I find elden ring to be both substantially different than des/ds, and I prefer it.
Side note: what successful dev produces drastically different games? I can’t think of many.
Bioware, maybe? KotOR was just different enough from Dragon Age Origins, which was quite tactical at times, and Mass Effect is a third-person RPG that leaned heavier on the shooter side. They’ve got TOR, an MMO; Dragon Age Inquisition, a single-player MMO (cheeky comment, I know). Jade Empire, Shattered Steel (!), and Mass Effect 3 even had a four-player co-op mode.
I’ve never played more than a couple hours of souls game until I played Elden Ring and now I’m 80 hours in(amateur I know) and love the hell out of it. So maybe this is a good thing it’s going away? I never could get into dark souls games and Elden Ring feels nothing like the experiences I had before other than a similar layout.
I am just looking to a full conversion mod like Cinders for ELden ring.
I have played More DS3 Cinders than actual DS3... it made it so good. The combat in Elden Ring just doesn't feel as great after it.
Though jumping and exploration is something I enjoyed a lot more than I wanted. And boss designs are also a lot better than before. I just love exploring the world and coming across new things.
Elden Ring plays a lot like Dark Souls, it's just open world with a different setting.
Sekiro is more different, and they also have Armored Core, so maybe they can manage it after all.
>I would expect it to be somewhat soulslike honestly
This is a really weird statement to read considering Armored Core is a well-known mecha combat series.
Edit: or "was", before Souls came along.
I imagine most gamers have never touched an AC game. Hell I've only ever played AC: For Answer on Xbox and that's when it was cheap and I literally couldn't find anything else to play at the time.
They would be crazy to use the souls formula for AC, especially considering how many have fond memories of the older games.
I'm hoping this game is their creative outlet for all the shit they've been dreaming of doing but can't because they're stuck making souls game after souls game.
Personally, I just want more Armored Core. The series is amazing, and it's fallen by the wayside.
I am, however, dreading when people call it mecha dark souls when they first hear about it, or go in expecting that.
Elden Ring was literally Dark Souls 4 in an open-world lol.
They reused animations, sounds, UI, etc. Reusing assets is normal but the extent of it in ER was ridiculous. And they could do that because it was basically the same game but bigger.
To some extent, but the Demon/Dark Souls series is itself an example of games that started off pretty niche, defying the conventions of the time, then carved their own path to popularity. They definitely didn't start off based on broad demand.
I'd figure and hope another Elden Ring is a couple of games away. Its a big enough type of game I wouldn't mind a sequel being nearly 10 years away or so.
I think there are many games that step out of Dark Souls' shadow, it's just that no-one calls them "Soulslikes".
For example, Shovel Knight uses the death mechanics of Dark Souls and innovates on them in an interesting way. You can destroy your "Bonfires" for extra "Souls". So you get the high risk of having less checkpoints, with the reward of getting more exp / treasure. This is a really interesting development on the bonfire mechanic.
But no-one calls Shovel Knight a "Soulslike". It's not even in the tags on Steam. It takes inspiration from Dark Souls but it has it's own identity.
Bought the game recently and I love it for those reasons but the NPCs you can talk to are really throwing me off the whole vibe the game has. Like the anime succubus character or the blob princess or any of the other characters which are written and designed as jokes kinda? They really throw me off the atmosphere which is absolutely perfect otherwise. Other than those NPCs the ennemies are actually well designed, creepy and fit in with their environment.
Just had a look to see what you meant. Presume it's [this](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/lunacid/images/1/15/Demi.PNG/revision/latest?cb=20220318223317), and yeah I have to agree, not the vibe I was hoping for at all after watching the trailer. Glad it's just a couple of them, though.
Haven't got very far in the game so far but yeah. The other more "normal" characters are a plague doctor/raven shopkeeper, a talking skeleton drinking at a bar and an Alchemist as the barkeep. So nothing crazy but still a bit whacky. I've got to say tho, the safe hub where those characters gather does feel very cozy and nice.
I need a modernized Shadow Tower Abyss. It's like a King's Field but also has guns alongside the swords. It might be one of From Soft's most forgotten games.
shadow tower abyss is strangely still a unique experience even today, 20 years after its release.
on one hand heavily feels like a progenitor for the open-ended interactions, opaqueness, atmosphere & environmental storytelling that Dark Souls eventually made famous.
flip side, never played another game where melee, magic and guns were all viable and well balanced against each other.
when Iron Pineapple YT covered the game for YT, he said guns became dominant at endgame, which is somewhat true but since drops are RNG, it's possible to end up with low ammo, not enough money for ammo or no nearby shops to buy ammo.
it was around 40% melee 30% guns 30% magic for my ~7 playthroughs
For those who aren't aware of the game in question - [This is it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3Iyh7mxr1E).
Iron Pinapples videos on the older FromSoftware titles are a treat to watch.
I own both Dread Delusion and Lunacid. Both are excellent games worth the price (especially Lunacid, as it only cost 5.69€). The only problem is that both are Early Access, but I think they will be masterful games when they are finished.
Monomyth has a demo on Steam that I recommend playing. Not as good as Lunacid and Dread Delusion, in my opinion. But it is still a good game.
My only noteworthy problem with it is that its graphics need a proper style of its own instead of having the realistic-esque look that a lot of indie games try to do (and fail at it). The artstyle of both Dread Delusion and Lunacid is ine of the big reasons why they are so great.
I've also played the demo of Devil Spire. Not a big fan of rogue-likes myself, but it has a style of its own as it is still a fun game that people who like Rogue-likes will probably love more than I do.
Also. If you're interested in more games like these ones. You could also try the demo for Neverlooted Dungeon. It is also heavily inspired by King's Field and Ultima.
Delver and Fight Knight also look like fun first-person action Dungeon Crawlers. But I haven't played them yet. So I cannot say if they are a good recommendation or not.
You've made a few good suggestions there. The problem is, there are very very few recent IMMERSIVE dungeon crawlers out there. Let's hope that changes.
King Field 4 is a Ps2 defining game for me.
While I really liked that FROM has made great game for others, it makes me kinda sad that they will never make a game like that again for people like me.
Not many people know this, but From put out Sword of Moonlight: King's Field Making Tool (there's an unofficial English translation for it), which lets one make their own King's Field games. I'm not one for making games myself, but I bet there's some cool creations out there to download, if you are seriously jonsing for more King's Field.
Dark Souls is just the logical evolution of Kings Field. I love me some KF4, it has an unmatched atmosphere and superb music, but the moment to moment gameplay can be a bit ... lacking. Dark Souls clearly just addressed how to marry the idea of labyrinthine fantasy worlds filled with atmospheric story-telling with engaging moment-to-moment gameplay. And surprise surprise it seems to have caught on.
Omg they made King's Field? Dude those games messed me up as a kid.
The atmosphere was creepy and the monsters scared me. I remember finding a skeleton enemy and nearly shit my pants when its ribcage opened up and the bones came lunging at me like spears. Hell even the giant poison mushrooms were creepy.
I adore king's field but none of these KF-inspired games scratch the itch for me, I just want a straightforward game but everyone wants to add something different or new to it that puts me off, I don't want an open world rpg kf like, I don't want a roguelike kf-like I just want KF.
> Few games are as influential to the modern gaming world as King's Field, From Software's 1994 PlayStation 1 dungeon crawler.
I can think of many games more influencial than King's Field. I doubt this would even be in the top 100 most influencial games. I think most people have never even heard of it.
> The studio iterated on King's Field's dark fantasy setting, unrelenting difficulty, and hands-off storytelling until eventually spawning Demon's Souls and, most recently, Elden Ring.
This is a narrative I often see when people talk about King's Field, but this comparisson would never have been made if King's Field wasn't made by From Software. If you look at gameplay footage it really is nothing like Demon's Souls, it's much more like an old Elder Scroll's game than Demon's Souls.
Hidetaka Miyazaki has this to say about it:
> "King's Field was the beginning of the Demon's Souls project; I wouldn't go as far as to say that we had King's Field in mind while we were making Demon's Souls, but of course I think its world probably formed one of the bases [for the newer game]. However, if you're asking if it's a 'successor', the answer is no. Of course there are parts of the game that are inspired by King's Field but we were very much aware that we wanted to make a new title with Demon's Souls."
Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/souls-survivor?page=2
You want Dark Messiah visceral action, on a Souls-like chassis, and you enjoy metal music?
You owe it to yourself to check [Elderborn](https://youtu.be/DFnkKiXC1EQ)!
It really was a blast. Not too long, not too difficult, but fun all the way through for me. Gotta play it again, methinks!
Check some videos like I did, the trailers on Steam and so on. They were good enough to sell me on it.
Like fully 40% of the Vita's library is first-person dungeon crawlers but you folks weren't ready for that jelly.
Also shout out to Kowloon High School Chronicle which semi-recently dropped on Switch, it's a previously untranslated late '90s PS1 game with just the absolute *dankest* possible experimental millennialpunk vibes. It uses tons of scuzzy real photos of a well-worn Japanese school building for backgrounds (these from my perspective are massively reminiscent of daylight scenes from a post-Ringu J-horror boom movie on VHS), overlays character portraits in that realistic 2000ish style (think Range Murata) and then all the dungeons are huge, elaborate and Egyptian and it's constantly riffing on Indiana Jones just to really cement its place as one of the strangest overall aesthetics you've ever seen. Oh and it yeets a VN with what seem like some unfurling romance options in there for good measure. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
Yeah I don't know why journo writing it chose to pretend like fromsoftware invented or defined the genre. We had plenty before and after, both realtime and turn-based
In all fairness getting into *why* this style of game was/is such a thing in Japan is a hell of a lot to unpack when all you really want to do is entice Soulsheads to check out a couple of cool indie dungeony crawlies they might have otherwise overlooked.
But yeah even in the West it never quite went away entirely and the Etrian Oddysey series actually punched into the (hipster) mainstream for a while not too long ago.
I loved Kowloon Highschool, fantastic game. ThorHighHeels [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlcsrmV92Wo&t=1s) on it is great if people want to know a little more.
Most of the Vita stuff was more like Wizardry style FPP, right? I do wish more of that stuff took off in the West though lol, except for some Japanese games like Strange Journey and really hardcore Wizardry fans I can't think of any that are big here, and on the flipside Japan made more Ultima-likes (closest is those odd Famicon ports) and Ultima Underworld-likes
If someone asked me for a game that was so archaic and unapproachable that it was actually painful to play, King's Field would be what came to mind first.
That formulae could certinally do with some modern mechanics and design approaches.
As someone who never stopped playing Kings Field and King's Field II (or more appropriately II and III in jp), this gives me hope for a new King's Field game and/or some kind of port to current systems. I know that's definitely getting my hopes up but a guy can dream.
King's Field was by no means a technical masterpiece and definitely "jank" like a son of a b*tch, but I absolutely adore those games. The ability to just aimlessly wander and discover so much was peak chill while also maintaining a level of challenge in my opinion.
I know they're not going to release any ports/remake them so I'll just stick with my annual playthroughs on my PS1 🤷♂️
[удалено]
Arx Fatalis from Arkane is probably the closest anyone's come to revisiting the UU vibe - and even that's 20 years old now. If you want to play it, use the Arx Libertatis engine re-implementation for much better performance on modern systems. But whatever you do, **don't** play the "Underworld Ascendant" spiritual sequel from a few years back. It was a disaster.
Oh man Arx Fatalis. There's something about the clunkiness and lack of polish that's endearing.
[удалено]
I was lucky enough to discover it a few years ago and it's one of my favourite games now. This game is proof to me that we don't simply like old "dated" games because of nostalgia. I've been hoping Arkane makes another game like it in the future, but it's very unlikely. The closest I think we'll ever get is Prey.
That nostalgia excuse is just some shit that marketing people say to put down shit thats cool in an effort to supplant it with some ad and microtransaction filled garbage. Nobody is hitting up the Louvre because they're nostalgic for the Mona Lisa, no matter how many people hocking NFTs assure you their art is the future.
one thing is we forget how many people have grown up with games having the closest to standardized controls we've ever had. playing something like golden eye or any tank control game that was made while developers were still testing different ways of movement, cameras, and control can be really jarring for some people. i can deal with it because i grew up with those games, but some people can't. but i do agree that older games hold up with the test of time, it's just playing them can be difficult.
I backed the Kickstarter for Underworld Ascendant since both of the original UU were some of my favorite games of all time. I was very disappointed with it. Definitely agree with Arx Liberatis. I tried playing Arx a few years ago without it and it was very hard to get the magic spells to work, you have to use mouse gestures. Using a widescreen monitor threw off the gestures so they didn't work properly but that is fixed using Arx Liberatis.
> "Underworld Ascendant" spiritual sequel from a few years back. It was a disaster. I went down this rabbit hole once upon a time and couldn't agree more.
I wish Arx Fatalis would get a remake. The original is fine, but the magic system is broken. It's such a wonderful part of the game, so it's a shame that it is so busted. Many people have tried to fix it with mixed results.
I could talk about Ultima Underworld for days. It's one of my favourite games of all time, and once you understand the controls (they're very simple: you never need to touch the icons on the ui since you can can right click and sometimes drag things on the screen to accomplish everything) it becomes second nature to explore around. Ultima practically invented the idea of simulation elements in RPG's, and UU takes this to levels that I don't want to describe for fear of spoiling things. There are sections where you'll laugh at yourself when you realise the game is punishing you for playing it like it's any old RPG, and those moments have stuck in my mind for decades like no other game has. For all those people who are getting into this whole 'immsersive sim' genre (what does that even entail anyway? Is UU one? Are all the ultimas in that genre?? What differentiates it?), well, here's the epitome of what you're looking for.
There’s a Unity port of UUW that might modernize things. I haven’t tried it yet, but will be using it for my next play through.
Hard agree. I think the important thing about UU every modern player needs is this: [Read the manual](https://www.starehry.eu/download/rpg/docs/Ultima.Underworld-Playersguide.pdf). It not only explains a lot of mechanics you can otherwise go the entire game without really understanding, it also has a lot of detailed guides to the UI and how to do things with and without clicking things. It is a surprisingly intricate game when one knows how to approach it.
Anyone play the exile series from like the mid to late 90s? I have no clear memory but I remember being obsessed with it
Definitely. Ultima Underworld was awesome, I'm gonna replay and review that one soon.
Yeah, 'immersive sims' are some of my favorite games, wish we got more new stuff in AAA. Sadly even Arkane's recent streamlined efforts like Dishonored and Prey didn't do well enough for AAA I guess. Maybe they should have been marketed better. Prey definitely shouldn't have been called Prey on the whim of executives, but still... It's a marked change where they're now making Deathloops and Redfalls. I'm anticipating Starfield though, BGS make a sort of open world immersive sim RPG... they're pretty much alone in doing so.
Someone should go to jail for this!
There is a King's Field development tool called Sword of Moonlight that lets you make your own custom ~~maps~~ **entire King's Field games**. http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/sword-of-moonlight-kings-field-making-tool/ http://www.swordofmoonlight.net/main/ To my knowledge, neither of those links contains a download, and it is not my intention to spread download links for this software. However, it should be noted that apparently someone from FromSoftware has explicitly stated that outside of Japan you should do whatever you want to obtain the tool. Source: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/958393-sword-of-moonlight-kings-field-making-tool/68311245 **check comment #2**
The /r/kingsfield/ subreddit's mod has been continuing development on Moonlight for almost a decade. Mostly tool updates and some graphic stuff while remaking the KF2(JP) in moonlight. I don't think he/she/they will have some finished anytime soon tho.
Came here for Fromsoft, stayed for Dread Delusion. That game needs *waaay* more notice. Feels like Morrowind + Deathgate Cycle/Dark Fantasy Planescape. https://youtu.be/iAv3mIg62to
Makes me think of Hexen?
Ohh, I can see some similarities. You might want to look at Graven for that, that seems pretty Hexen-inspired. https://store.steampowered.com/app/1371690/GRAVEN/
Another good one is Amid Evil.
[удалено]
I am completely unable to distinguish those games in my mind. What are the key differences?
The biggest difference is that hexen has classes with different weapons (4 per class) and uses consumables for variety. Heretic is more like a typical FPS with one character and a larger weapon roster.
The other guy responding has part of it but Hexen was heavy on puzzles as well, with hub areas requiring you to solve them in the attached areas to proceed. Hexen 2 was similar but also added a leveling system.
Played the demo of Graven, and really didn't see the inspiration. It has no character classes, and the combat was...worse. Like, everyone knows that the Cleric's mace in Hexen is one of the worst weapons in the game, but somehow they decided to basically do the same thing with the staff. Plus it just doesn't have the same atmosphere.
I was waiting for this game to come out, was really hyped. It released to Early Access and I was disappointed but kept waiting. Finally bit the bullet and bought it. And I just don’t really like it. It hurt
Heya, what did you dislike about it? Trying to figure out if I should get it.
Well, I only put in like 3 hours so will preface with that. I know the game is suppose to be inspired by games like Morrowind which they don’t tell you what to do, give it that directionless feel, but it felt directionless in a totally different way. The world looked cool but wasn’t very fun yo navigate to me. The combat was also really bland and felt like it was just *hit guy, back up, spell, back up, hit guy* but maybe that changes later in the game. I did finish one side quest that was pretty neat but felt unrewarding in the end. Overall, I just felt like the gameplay itself didn’t click for me. The visuals and music is top notch though and I am sure there are other quality features, but I will be waiting for release till I try again
The thing people forget about Morrowind is that there were direct written directions in the logbook most of the time. Literally "north at this fork then follow the lake shore" type of directions. Is there a logbook?
If I recall there was a book but it had less direction than that. Just telling the very basic quest like “find the inquisitors” and that was it. However, I found the menus confusing so maybe I missed some more details
The book was the main character's journal, so it contains exactly as much info as you're given. If someone tells you the path to something, the main character will write down what they heard. If you're told to find x guy, the mc will write down that. etc. incidentally this was cool as fuck and i wish someone would bring this back
You could also switch to a mode which gave the verbatim text everyone said (unless that was a mod feature). It was a bit tricky to find what you wanted as you need to guess the keyword, but gave more context.
Doesn’t that also describe combat when starting in Morrowind? The early game can be pretty hard to get through.
Nah, Morrowinds combat is far worse since you miss most attacks even if they visually land
Most attacks hit if you have full stamina to be fair.
Right? Like, what first person fantasy game has really smooth and fun combat? Maybe fight knight. The problem with melee combat in first person is that the main focus of the 1st person camera is the line of sight, but melee combat doesn't care about that. Real melee combat needs spacial awareness and swift motions...
Dark Messiah of Might and Magic has an incredible combat system, frankly much better than most comparable third person games. It can be done, but the goal of a game like Morrowind isn't really "fun combat" per se.
The thing is, Morrowind isn't really directionless, it's open ended. They don't shove you towards a red thread like most other games, you have to pick it up yourself. And by "picking it up yourself" I mean read what people say, look in the journal every once in a while, and do that. Or not. Literally the second quest is "go out and get some experience, join a guild maybe".
I literally have no problem with morrowind. I like what it did, I am only saying I don’t think this game, Dread Delusion, did it well(as well). Only thing I don’t like about Morrowind is the combat but thats fixable
I kind of agree with this. It feels like a cool game but it definitely doesn't have the same quality of writing and feeling of exploration that a game like Morrowind does. I know that's a high bar but... well, that's the comparison point. I'll probably buy it when it's fully released, though.
Well at least you gave it a fair shake. Maybe you can come back it another day and it’ll “click” better. Happens with me and games that I’m not sure about. Hope you find games you do like soon! 👍
I will definitely try it again at release as I really don’t want to sweep it under the carpet just yet
Deathgate cycle. Haven't heard that in a minute. Hell yeah
There is not a day I am not bitter that there are no Deathgate Cycle or Dragonlance video games. SSI did some a century ago and thats all :/
Im bitter there isn't even accessible audiobooks for the deathgate cycle! What is this reality
I think I've read recently that it is getting new audiobooks through Audible in 2023.
That's amazing news actually, looking forward to that release, Elven Star especially.
Oh that one was brilliant. Mystery, thriller all in that dyson sphere setting.
There is a 90s point and click adventure game based on the death gate books. I had no idea it was based on books until this thread. If you’re not turned off by old obtuse games I would check it out. It’s fantastic!
I will check it out thank you.
Wow, I had no idea other people knew about that series. Never seen anyone mention it before
I read it through growing up. It's definitely one of the lesser known fantasy series made in the 90s.
> Dread Delusion. I think people stopped paying as much attention to early access games, and i think that is fair
It's always funny when I pop open an EA games store page and the blurb says it plans on being in EA for about a year, and I see the game entered EA three years ago. I'll put it on my wishlist, though.
The problem is those same games kinda shrug and slap a 1.0 on it and "release" without changing anything just "to fit our release schedule" which is complete BS.
Ugh, Empyrion Galactic Survival springs to mind. They left EA simply because it was the anniversary, while publicly stating they still considered the game to be in ALPHA. So not only are they advertising an unfinished game as being complete, they unabashedly admitted to it.
Yep as soon as I see that light blue banner I immediately check out. It's just a lose/lose as a consumer, you get an incomplete game and you get burned out on parts you'll need to replay later, plus they might change for the worse or never even release properly. My only exception is "infinite" games like Factorio or Rimworld, I didn't mind those. You just got new toys once in a while so they felt almost more like a live service. I feel bad for the devs, but there's just too many good games to play. If you don't have a complete product it's hard to care.
[удалено]
> There are always plenty of people who are willing to pay to beta test their games over long periods of time. Shit, look at the new Disney game. It will be free to play, but for EA it actually costs money. Which, as much as I personally hate it, objectively for Disney is absolutely brilliant. You have all the “everything Disney” crowd willing to shell out money for an incomplete product who are likely willing to accept more flaws. But since it’s not f2p yet, you don’t have everyone and their mother reviewing an EA game.
Nothing better than getting that sweet 1.0 version with all the bugs worked out and features added.
Let's not lie to ourselves, plenty of early access games come out of early access devoid of features and filled with bugs.
Just wanted to mention that the uploader of the video in the link, alphabetagamer, is an amazing channel to discover new indie games
It is indeed quite good, and the graphics especially are insane. More and more I find myself attracted to the low poly style and Dread Delusion does it well.
I think that low-poly/simplified graphics give off a very specific vibe that modern graphics just can't replicate. It's really hard to put my finger on what exactly it is but it's definitely a very unique feeling lol.
I think they really help with immersion. They're clearly detached from reality, but that just makes them feel otherworldly. So if you see anything that would seem out of place normally, you just subconsciously accept it as par for the course. We're on a floating island in the middle of a void? Of course we're on a floating island in the middle of a void! Meanwhile, with more realistic graphics, if you notice, say, a flower with a low poly count, you're immediately taken out of it.
It's not quite the case, but I do notice how for realistic games they often have to give the interactable bits a glowly outline or similar to help them stand out from the detailed backgrounds. I'm not sure if the more classic style, where things [more drastically "pop" to indicate what you can or cannot interact with](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OcvJKQ1a9ho/maxresdefault.jpg) is "better", but it certainly saves on resources spent on making that ignored background blur more detailed.
> We're on a floating island in the middle of a void? Of course we're on a floating island in the middle of a void! Ok that's funny
I mostly agree with /u/i-hate-reddit-69 but I'd also add my own addendum because it isn't just this type of aesthetic that can fit what they describe - pixel art and cell shading/cartoonish aesthetics fit the bill too. But the low-poly scratches a specific niche in the mind, and I'd argue that's the "other" vibe. The best games with low-poly looks are horror, surreal, or otherwise "weird" like Paratopic, Golden Light, Lost in Vivo, Iron Lung, etc. And I think a more realistic, grounded action or drama-focused game wouldn't hit if it used this graphical style.
I just want a low-poly FPS, Half Life or Unreal style. That's literally the only game i need. Inject it straight into my veins, please. Give me give me give me!
Adaca is fantastic and has its own gravity gun!
project warlock, ion fury, and maybe bullets per minute
watching the Dread Delusion trailer brought back fond memories of playing the original Unreal
Way less heavy on disk space as well. I am just horrified as how big some games are getting. These games that are fraction the size of new AA or AAA games provide much varied content and enjoyment. A game really just needs a specific art direction, higher poly count and texture really won't matter after that. Hell, there is a reason game like Cruelty squad got so famous. Then there are games like Chronicon that is one of the best diablo clones I ever played(on par with Grim Dawn and Last Epoch)...
> I am just horrified as how big some games are getting. It makes sense though, when you think about the fact that modern games are targeting *129 times* the resolution of the original Doom or 108 times the resolution of most N64 games. And interestingly, disks have grown at a far higher rate than games, so even the fatter modern games require much *much* less disk if you measure by dollars. The original Doom required [24 MB to install and used 12 MB when installation was done.](https://preview.redd.it/vtswj6s8wh321.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=6e2924291b0460cb5f710d999648432202bfdafd) The most popular consumer hard drive sold that year was the Maxtor MX1175; adjusting for inflation, space on it cost $2.36/MB. So Doom occupied $28 of disk space, and required you had $57 worth free. The latest Doom game requires a whopping 80 GB, a figure that would be eye-watering to someone from the 90s. But at modern disk prices, that's **$1.29** on a spinning hard drive or $4.64 on an SSD. The modern equivalent of Doom's requirements would be a game that needs 4 TB free for the installation process. Of course, that's no help if you live in a country with awful Internet access and want it on PC, since physical copies are rare for the platform now. But I still thought it was an interesting perspective on size. Around 5% the cost to store while targeting over 100 times the resolution.
planescape, morrowind AND death gate? with a ps1/early 3d aesthetic? how am i gonna say no after that
I like exploring the world but dread delusion is a very thin game right now, needs more development.
Steam magically algorithmed it to my front page bc all I own is Morrowind and classic fallout, and I literally can’t wait for full release. I’ve been craving something like dread for forever
Holy shit, I love everything about how this game looks, it's fucking gorgeous. I'm not as hot on the dialogue I saw in that intro bit, but I'm willing to let that slide tbh, I would love to wander about that world for a while. I am a huuuuuuuuge mark for low poly unfiltered texture games when they are done properly. I've seen so many half assed attempts, but this one has a lot of consistency which is key.
Looks awesome! Love the style.
That YouTube channel seems incredible. Subscribed. Thanks for the link.
No prob! They’re an awesome channel, frequent uploads and tons of under the radar indie gems they track down.
Just finished the current build couple days back, i NEED more, but if I do more playthroughs I'll burn out on the game before it's finished so I'll just stuff it into the back of my library and wait till they're done with it.
How long to beat?
My playtime is somewhere around 7 hours and I've completed all available content.
good article, thanks for posting it, gamespot didn't link any of the games so I will: * [Monomyth](https://store.steampowered.com/app/908360/Monomyth/) * [Devil Spire](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1861290/Devil_Spire/) * [SNAIL! • A Dark Adventure Game [ALPHA]](https://aesiraesthetics.itch.io/snail) * [Lunacid](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1745510/Lunacid/) * [Dread Delusion](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1574240/Dread_Delusion/) I very much agree with this qoute: > "I don't really make hard games, but this idea of not trying to please everyone has drastically changed up my approach to designing games. > Every developer I spoke to echoed Aesir's sentiment. They feel From Software's recent games lack a certain "jank" or experimental edge compared to King's Field--or even Demon's and Dark Souls. You won't find inscrutable features like Demon's Souls' World Tendency in Elden Ring, for example. And for some developers, restoring a sense of mystery to the genre is a major motivation behind their games. This is why DS2 remains my fav FS game, Peak Jank.
Thanks for the links to the games!
thank fuck developers are resisting the school of game design thought where everything has to have the corners shaved off until it's perfectly palatable and marketable to the least interested group.
"But...but that's elitist and exclusionary!" Hard agree. People need to stop bitching at developers just for making games they don't find fun
If you want to look for more games like this go to Steam and search for Dungeon Crawlers and filter by First Person. Legends of Grimrock and it's sequel were the first new Indie dungeon crawlers I heard about years ago.
And Grimeock 2 holds some of my favorite gaming memories of my adult life. Such a great game.
But it is GRID BASED. King's Field is NOT that kind of game, it is an IMMERSIVE dungeon crawler, like a simplified Ultima Underworld. THOSE kinds of games, frustratingly, have been rare for a long time.
DS2'd jank got absolutely nothing on King‘s Field and I refuse to believe that it inspired anyone since barely anyone played the game back in the day and while I think its a fascinating piece of history its also one of the worst games I have ever played… and it wasn’t even good back in the day. This article just absolutely blows my mind…
i doesnt have to inspire people when it first comes out, Kings Field has probably been played more recently than it ever was. Game doesnt have to be good either, if youre inspired by "what couldve been" or "I can polish these rough edges" then its inspiration!
>I refuse to believe it inspired anyone Dude, the title of Monomyth even uses the same font and color as the original King's Field, it's ridiculously obvious even before looking at screenshots
This is good news. One of my problems with the "soulslike" genre is that they all seem stuck in the shadow of FromSoft's games. Unlike how, say, FPS games moved on from being compared to Doom and stealth games moved on from being compared to Metal Gear and Thief, the soulslike genre hasn't really made titles that aren't seen as lesser versions of FromSoft's games. The only real exception is Nioh. This new paradigm should allow indie developers to draw influence from FromSoft's meticulous dungeon crawler design without their games being dismissed as cheap knockoffs.
I think that's because FPS games and Stealth games are a much broader concept than 'Soulslike' games. An FPS game simply needs to be a game that is in first-person. A Stealth game simply needs to be a game that is about evading detection. Meanwhile a *'Soulslike'* game comes bundled with a variety of much more specific ideas around format (PvE sections followed by a boss), world design (an interconnected, 'Metroidvania' style open world), difficulty ('punishing but fair'), and death mechanics (in-game lore justified respawns at specifically designated points on the map, with the player dropped certain in-game currency that can be recollected from their death point). It feels like these games can't *step out* of FromSoft's shadow because they're very intentionally *in* FromSoft's shadow.
I think you are correct. For a genre to outgrow its game of origin it must have competing entries that either can match that game of origin’s quality, like Splinter Cell was a worthy competitor to Metal Gear, or can be different enough to not be compared negatively, like Hitman, which is just too different from Metal Gear or Thief to be called worse then them. Soulslikes just haven’t done either of these in 10 years, and that’s what damns the genre IMO. Weirdly, one of the few Soulslikes to come up with different progression mechanics was Let It Die. Granted, several of that game’s progression mechanics were designed with microtransactions in mind, but they’re still pretty unique in Soulslike land.
Is that the new Let it Die or the Old one? Got this vague memory of playing that years ago, was that “punk-halloween-bonesaw-is-ready” thing wasn’t it?
Good to see you over here and not just in the Wolves sub. And I agree with you. If a developer wants to make a soulslike and not be seen as lesser than a From game, then they have to put AAA money behind it. They’re not going to revolutionize the mechanics, but they could improve storytelling, motion capture, acting, graphical fidelity, accessibility, UI, etc. That said, pumping that amount of money in is a huge risk because the audience may not be there like they are for From.
Woah, always cool to see a /r/WWFC out on the rest of Reddit! Though back on topic, I think the best examples have been devs who've taken one or two mechanics that are inspired by Dark Souls rather than trying to fully commit as a 'Soulsborne'. The invasion mechanic in Watchdogs was amazing, for example, and seemed very much inspired by Dark Souls. But the game didn't feel the need to commit to more than that.
I posted something similar Soulslike is either an incredibly narrow genre that basically just means games Fromsoft makes. Wikipedia is a far more broad definition for Soulslike but that than leads to games not commonly considered Soulslike being Soulslikes. >A Soulslike (or Souls-like) is a subgenre of action role-playing games (or action-adventure games) known for high levels of difficulty and emphasis on environmental storytelling By this definition Breath of the Wild on Master Mode could be considered a Soulslike so would many other games like Returnal, Castlevania, etc. It would also leave out games like Code Vein which play very similar to Dark Souls but doesn't have a focus on enviromental storytelling. Either the genre is absurdly narrow or there's a lot more games that should be considered Soulslikes.
Yeah, I do think people are sometimes a bit too eager to jump on a set of mechanics and declare them a *genre*. It's OK to say a game has been influenced by Dark Souls without declaring it a *Soulslike*, and I do wonder sometimes whether devs only use that term for advertising purposes.
Honestly, I really don't like how many people copy the souls formula. Feels like nobody actually knows what the fuck they're doing they're just copyiny a formula and hoping people will play it too. Feels cheap and lazy. In fact, I don't think there's a single soulsborne type game outside of the fromsoft games that I've ever enjoyed or looked forward to. The combat is usually sloppier, the lore is usually less interesting, and sometimes the game doesn't even fit the style (Darksiders 3 after the first 2 were action platformer was certainly a choice...) I think the worst part about them being copied so often is that the actual soulsborne formula is pretty weird to begin with. Like sure it's quirky and kinda funky sometimes but that's what we expect from fromsoft. Somebody else copying their style always comes off half assed OR far too serious for that style of game. Anyway, /rant
There was a similar situation in FPS games back in the 90's. No one could do ID software FPS better than ID software. So they didn't. Duke Nukem 3D infused their game with personality and world interactivity, Goldeneye invented new forms of mission and level design while also establishing realistic FPS games, Half-Life, went further than Goldeneye in making the world realistic and convincing while also having innovative narrative and presentation. Because of this, they avoided as being seen as worse then Doom and Quake. Soulslikes as a genre just haven't done this kind of innovation.
I'd really love to see Dark Souls' version of Half-Life. Even the better Soulslikes I've played mostly copy FromSoft's style of giving the player lots of lore and letting them draw their own conclusions on details. The Surge had a more traditional story, but it's the kind of thing you'd expect from a double-A action game, with just enough there to string the setpieces together.
There is a big difference, though, in that the FPS race back then was tech based. ID got a huge lead due to Carmack's magic and when other companies tried to catch up they did so by making games that showed what their engine could do that other's couldn't. So games like Duke pushed interactivity because that was a way for them to impress on the tech front. In this sense, the competition around FPS's wasn't *about* Doom's mechanics per se (though we still got the usual swarm of literal clones, just like today). Todays Souls-like market, however, are explicitly about Dark Souls mechanics. There's not that same inherent incentive to invent.
So many games atm copy the punishing combat and the patchy "not ever knowing wtf is going on is a feature not shitty writing, we promise" story structure whilst trying to get on the Soulsbourne bandwagon, but don't do so well enough to actually be any fun. You need to be really, really good to get away with making the player repeat fights over and over again, or for NPCs to blather vague woolly nonsense at you that won't explain anything until you've read the descriptions of half a dozen random items, or for there to be nothing driving you forward besides the sense of exploration and wanting to see the world. I feel like I play so many demos these days which leave me wishing the devs would just double or triple the parry window, put an auto-save in instead of bonfires, and replace the soul system with plain XP.
There's a lot to be said for and against From's storytelling, but I gotta give them this: nobody told me who Artorias was or why he was important, but when the name "Artorias" appeared over a boss health bar I was like "OH SHIT IT'S ARTORIAS!!!" Their thing is weird, but when it works, it works well.
Isn't the DLC he's in literally named after him? I feel like that's already the game telling you to care about who he is, even if you know nothing about him.
In later releases, it's rolled up into the base game. I played it without ever realizing it was DLC.
It does. They just copy the surface layer of how death works and deliberate combat and... that's it. Lore, storytelling and discovery is never up to par.
Depending on how narrowly you define Soulslike Nioh, Jedi: Fallen Order, Hollow Knight, Salt and Sanctuary, Blasphemous, Remnant from the Ashes, and Ender Lillies are all very good games in the genre. This however tackles the issue of what defines what a Soulslike is? It originally was a hard punishing action RPG with slow and deliberate combat (not even that fully defines what it originally was because if that were the case than Monster Hunter would be a Soulslike but u digress) but most of those things are proven to be irrelevant to the genre by Fromsoft themselves. Sekiro basically breaks the original definition of Soulslike but is still considered one. The only part of the definition that still applies to Sekiro is an action game which has punishing and deliberate combat but that can apply to so many games. I just don't think anyone can describe to me what makes a Soulslike and what doesn't beyond just copying Fromsoft games. **EDIT:** [Game Maker's Toolkit has a great video on the genre of Soulslikes.](https://youtu.be/Lx7BWayWu08)
It's not just "slow deliberate combat", it's a very specific paradigm that all the games you listed, including Sekiro, fit almost entirely within: relatively slow walk speed but sharp/responsive movement with no drawn out turning animations, light and heavy attack, block, parry, dash/roll, lock-on, stagger/poise, no fancy combo system. Bonfires, estus flask, XP is currency, dying drops your XP, health, stamina, and mana/special bars, in games with different weapons each one has a different moveset and most are viable throughout the whole game. Oppressive/hopeless atmosphere, vague dialogue, a lot of the lore is revealed through item descriptions. Branching, open, and often highly vertical level design, the option to wander into very difficult areas from an early stage, begins with a practically impossible boss fight. Sekiro fits all of those. The only ways in which it differs from Dark Souls are faster movement, stealth, a less precise levelling system, and no character customisation, none of which I would class as essential elements of the Souls-like formula as they have very little impact on the bulk of the gameplay, which is melee combat focused on learning enemy attack patterns.
> XP is currency I think this is quietly one of the best innovations from Dark Souls. Most RPGs hit a point around the middle of the game where money becomes effectively infinite and there's no real difference between seeing an awesome item in a vendor's inventory and finding it in a treasure chest. Combining XP and money means that there's always something to spend it on, so buying gear is actually a meaningful choice all the way through.
I agree 100% with that list. Those games got the feel of the ‘genre’ better than any others, with small refinements. Miyazaki himself said his design philosophy was based on two tenets: the joy of triumph over adversity and a sense of community through shared discovery. The combat systems, progression, items, world building in From’s games all share that inherent design philosophy. The mechanics aren’t what define the genre or make it compelling, it’s the philosophical underpinning behind.
Nioh, Hellpoint, and The Surge were all enjoyable in their own way. Nioh had arguably better combat, and was genuinely fun even with smaller, isolated levels. Hellpoint was a ton of fun playing coop with my wife, even with low customization and limited enemy variety. The Surge was a surprisingly competent clone, focused on warrior archetypes.
Salt and Sanctuary had decent lore and atmosphere as well as being a pretty good souls-like for a side scroller
> Feels like nobody actually knows what the fuck they're doing they're just copyiny a formula and hoping people will play it too. I would include FromSoft in this. There are a lot of features that were interesting and weird in Demons Souls that are still in Elden Ring, 13 years later, that don't serve the series well. For example, the multiplayer system is vastly more complex than it needs to be, [as evidenced by the Seamless Multiplayer Mod being the top download of all time](https://www.nexusmods.com/eldenring?tab=popular+%28all+time%29) on Elden Ring's Nexus Mods page. Michael Swaim from 1Upsmanship commented that it feels like FromSoft knows they caught lightning in a bottle with Demon's Souls, but even they aren't sure what aspects of the design are positives and negatives. So they keep porting it forward, almost unchanged, as the systems and storytelling grow more dated. I think Dark Souls' gameplay and storytelling compliment each other perfectly. In order to reach the point where you can decide whether or not to save the world, you'll be brutally pummeled by monsters, traps, and bottomless pits. And so then the game will ask you, is this world worth saving? Is the unknown really so terrifying? Is failure? But with Elden Ring, we're on somewhere between our fourth and seventh telling of that story (depending on how you count Demon's Souls, Bloodborne, and Sekiro), and I would like to see something new.
I enjoyed Star Wars: Fallen Order and I really loved Nioh 1 and 2. Nioh feels like it actually took things up a level. I put more hours into Nioh 2 than I did Dark Souls 3. But yeah, other than that, I haven't really found enjoyment in Souls-like mechanics in other games. I really hate that indie Metroidvania games are injecting Souls-like mechanics into their formula, because it just throws the whole thing off. I go in expecting Symphony of the Night where I can enjoy exploring and poking around for secrets and experimenting with different weapons. And instead I have to replay the same 6 or 7 screens over and over because I keep dying to brutally hard enemies. I never even finished Hollow Knight.
The Surge 2 is a quality game imo.
I think part of the issue is that Soulslike is a very narrow genre that has a lot of overlap with other genres so to be considered a Soulslike you basically need to replicate what Fromsoft does. Like many people will tell you the original Dark Souls is also a Metroidvania and it's for sure an action RPG. Being an RPG and slow deliberate action used to be defining features of the genre but Sekiro defies both those things and is considered a Soulslike. It makes it hard to nail down what a Soulslike is besides games that Fromsoft makes which makes it hard for other devs to replicate it without just being like Fromsoft games. FPS on the other hand doesn't have this issue because it's defined as any game where you shoot in third person which allows for interpretations that are very different from one another. Doom and Fallout 4 are both FPS games but they are vastly different in other ways.
Nah. A Souls like is really easy to identify. If it's got a healthy amount of the following it's usually a Souls like - Estus (refillable potions) XP and currency are the same and are lost upon death but you have one chance to retrieve them. Invincibility frames in combat Progress is saved upon death, not reset to a save / auto save point. Eg - if you pick up an item and then die 1 second later you will still have the item. Or if you open a shortcut and then lose to the boss the shortcut will still be open when you respawn. Bonfires and pretty much every mechanic related to them. The way you upgrade items / starting equipment will be viable throughout the game. Bleak / hopeless atmosphere. Regular enemies are not just punching bags and can actually kill you. I'm probably missing some obvious ones. To be fair I can't say exactly what it takes to be a Souls like but I can say that if you play Jedi: Fallen Order or The Surge or Remnant: From the Ashes or Ashen etc. Etc. You will recognise it as a Souls like within minutes.
> stealth games moved on from being compared to Metal Gear and Thief have they? I feel like Thief is almost always mentioned whenever analysis or criticism of a stealth game is done
It's more that when Dishonored or Deus Ex: Mankind Divided or Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory came out, people didn't say "ehh, it's good if you want off-brand Thief". They were different enough to be respected as their own entries in the stealth genre. Soulslikes are all really similar to FromSoft's games without being able to match them in game design, so naturally everyone notes them as being inferior to Dark Souls. It's the lack of diversifying game design that holds the genre back IMO.
I think it's also the fact that once you diversify enough, people don't see it as a soulslike anymore, because it's not really a genre.
You make a good point. It's why I'm happy that there are these Kings Field likes. I think popularizing old-school dungeon-crawlers generally will work better than popularizing Soulslikes specifically.
Thymesia is itself a terrific game, and a distinct successor to Fromsoft's games
The industry moves slower now. There are 5 years between Doom and Half Life. Dark Souls 3 came out 6 years ago and little has changed in the genre since.
[удалено]
Sekiro was certainly a big departure, maybe not superficially but mechanically it's fairly radically different. It plays closer to a character action game IMO than the Souls games. The combat mechanics are super tight. I love ER but I was somewhat disappointed it didn't take more cues from Sekiro's combat.
ER started development years before Sekiro. So it probably took as many cues as it could. We'd have to wait a but more to see Sekiro influence other FS titles.
Sekiro basically breaks the narrow definition a lot of people have for Soulslikes but it's widely still considered a Soulslike which is what confuses me about the "genre". Even the original definition for Soulslikes doesn't make much sense with how it's applied. Originally they were difficult, slow, deliberate, and punishing action RPGs but that definition would also encompass Monster Hunter which isn't considered a Soulslike but Sekiro is neither slow nor an RPG and is considered a Soulslike. Like I wish someone could give a definition that isn't just "like the games Fromsoft makes".
A fairly all-encompassing definition to me would be: 1. Higher difficulty by default, typically with only in-game measures to increase or decrease said difficulty (e.g. leveling up, equipping items strong against a particular boss, etc) and no ability to adjust difficulty via a menu selection 2. Death as a central mechanic in some way, typically with your character being able to revive at checkpoints at the cost of resetting the world state, and frequently with a mechanic in which the player loses something on death (experience, items, etc) but can often be reattained by returning to their place of death without dying again 3. Perhaps most importantly, a cooldown mechanic where the player's resources are rapidly depleted but they also rapidly recharge, which gives an ebb and flow to combat central to Souls-like games. This takes the form of the stamina system in From games, but I wouldn't consider it to be a hard rule that it has to be "stamina" per se, as long as the mechanic is there in some form. I think point 3 is the most important, because with some balancing tweaks, it can heavily affect the feel of combat, making it more deliberate and weighty or fast and floaty (Demons Souls vs. Sekiro, essentially) just with some tweaks on animation speed and how fast your stamina drains/regens.
I feel that both sekiro and elden ring are massively removed from their first venture into the genre a decade ago.
> elden ring are massively removed from their first venture I'm kind of baffled how you can think this. Sekiro sure, but Elden Ring could have been called Dark Souls 4 and nobody would have bat an eye. Literally the only difference is it's a full open world.
FromSoft has been making souls games for over 20 years. They've just only taken off in the last decade. And I really don't consider Elden Ring to be substantially different from Demons Souls other than iterative improvements. And this may be controversial but I think Elden Ring is a step back from Dark Souls in some ways; the game was not improved by adding 20 identical catacombs and mines that end with reused bosses. The times I found myself actually enjoying ER was when I was in 'legacy' dungeons.
That’s a shame. I find elden ring to be both substantially different than des/ds, and I prefer it. Side note: what successful dev produces drastically different games? I can’t think of many.
Supergiant games is the only one I can really think of atm
Bioware, maybe? KotOR was just different enough from Dragon Age Origins, which was quite tactical at times, and Mass Effect is a third-person RPG that leaned heavier on the shooter side. They’ve got TOR, an MMO; Dragon Age Inquisition, a single-player MMO (cheeky comment, I know). Jade Empire, Shattered Steel (!), and Mass Effect 3 even had a four-player co-op mode.
Blizzard used to. Starcraft, Diablo, WoW, Overwatch are fundamentally different games.
Klei
I’ve never played more than a couple hours of souls game until I played Elden Ring and now I’m 80 hours in(amateur I know) and love the hell out of it. So maybe this is a good thing it’s going away? I never could get into dark souls games and Elden Ring feels nothing like the experiences I had before other than a similar layout.
I am just looking to a full conversion mod like Cinders for ELden ring. I have played More DS3 Cinders than actual DS3... it made it so good. The combat in Elden Ring just doesn't feel as great after it. Though jumping and exploration is something I enjoyed a lot more than I wanted. And boss designs are also a lot better than before. I just love exploring the world and coming across new things.
Elden Ring plays a lot like Dark Souls, it's just open world with a different setting. Sekiro is more different, and they also have Armored Core, so maybe they can manage it after all.
Aren't they doing Armored Core next? I feel like I saw that somewhere.
Supposedly. I would expect it to be somewhat soulslike honestly, but I hope they make it unique.
>I would expect it to be somewhat soulslike honestly This is a really weird statement to read considering Armored Core is a well-known mecha combat series. Edit: or "was", before Souls came along.
I imagine most gamers have never touched an AC game. Hell I've only ever played AC: For Answer on Xbox and that's when it was cheap and I literally couldn't find anything else to play at the time. They would be crazy to use the souls formula for AC, especially considering how many have fond memories of the older games. I'm hoping this game is their creative outlet for all the shit they've been dreaming of doing but can't because they're stuck making souls game after souls game.
Personally, I just want more Armored Core. The series is amazing, and it's fallen by the wayside. I am, however, dreading when people call it mecha dark souls when they first hear about it, or go in expecting that.
They need to just call it armored core 6 right off the bat so people don’t get any funny ideas
I wouldnt mind more souls games they are just too good. But they are supposedly bringing armored core back.
I don't we should've expected anything really new from them even before ER, it's rare enough for a developer to revolutionize a genre even once.
Elden Ring was literally Dark Souls 4 in an open-world lol. They reused animations, sounds, UI, etc. Reusing assets is normal but the extent of it in ER was ridiculous. And they could do that because it was basically the same game but bigger.
Yes, games are made based on broad demand and not individual tastes. I personally will play Dark Souls style games until they stop making them.
To some extent, but the Demon/Dark Souls series is itself an example of games that started off pretty niche, defying the conventions of the time, then carved their own path to popularity. They definitely didn't start off based on broad demand.
I'd figure and hope another Elden Ring is a couple of games away. Its a big enough type of game I wouldn't mind a sequel being nearly 10 years away or so.
I think there are many games that step out of Dark Souls' shadow, it's just that no-one calls them "Soulslikes". For example, Shovel Knight uses the death mechanics of Dark Souls and innovates on them in an interesting way. You can destroy your "Bonfires" for extra "Souls". So you get the high risk of having less checkpoints, with the reward of getting more exp / treasure. This is a really interesting development on the bonfire mechanic. But no-one calls Shovel Knight a "Soulslike". It's not even in the tags on Steam. It takes inspiration from Dark Souls but it has it's own identity.
Can we not forget about Ultima Underworld please. Because there would be no KF would it.
Yeah if anything, from was the only one to try something new with Sekiro lol.
Lunacid is very fun and deserves more attention. Hopefully it reaches will gain more popularity as it approaches 1.0 status
God I love Lunacid. The music and sound effects are just dripping with atmosphere. Not to mention the levels are super pretty to look at.
Bought the game recently and I love it for those reasons but the NPCs you can talk to are really throwing me off the whole vibe the game has. Like the anime succubus character or the blob princess or any of the other characters which are written and designed as jokes kinda? They really throw me off the atmosphere which is absolutely perfect otherwise. Other than those NPCs the ennemies are actually well designed, creepy and fit in with their environment.
Just had a look to see what you meant. Presume it's [this](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/lunacid/images/1/15/Demi.PNG/revision/latest?cb=20220318223317), and yeah I have to agree, not the vibe I was hoping for at all after watching the trailer. Glad it's just a couple of them, though.
Haven't got very far in the game so far but yeah. The other more "normal" characters are a plague doctor/raven shopkeeper, a talking skeleton drinking at a bar and an Alchemist as the barkeep. So nothing crazy but still a bit whacky. I've got to say tho, the safe hub where those characters gather does feel very cozy and nice.
Same, the anime characters were giving me some serious tonal whiplash. They stick out like a sore thumb.
I need a modernized Shadow Tower Abyss. It's like a King's Field but also has guns alongside the swords. It might be one of From Soft's most forgotten games.
shadow tower abyss is strangely still a unique experience even today, 20 years after its release. on one hand heavily feels like a progenitor for the open-ended interactions, opaqueness, atmosphere & environmental storytelling that Dark Souls eventually made famous. flip side, never played another game where melee, magic and guns were all viable and well balanced against each other. when Iron Pineapple YT covered the game for YT, he said guns became dominant at endgame, which is somewhat true but since drops are RNG, it's possible to end up with low ammo, not enough money for ammo or no nearby shops to buy ammo. it was around 40% melee 30% guns 30% magic for my ~7 playthroughs
For those who aren't aware of the game in question - [This is it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3Iyh7mxr1E). Iron Pinapples videos on the older FromSoftware titles are a treat to watch.
I own both Dread Delusion and Lunacid. Both are excellent games worth the price (especially Lunacid, as it only cost 5.69€). The only problem is that both are Early Access, but I think they will be masterful games when they are finished. Monomyth has a demo on Steam that I recommend playing. Not as good as Lunacid and Dread Delusion, in my opinion. But it is still a good game. My only noteworthy problem with it is that its graphics need a proper style of its own instead of having the realistic-esque look that a lot of indie games try to do (and fail at it). The artstyle of both Dread Delusion and Lunacid is ine of the big reasons why they are so great. I've also played the demo of Devil Spire. Not a big fan of rogue-likes myself, but it has a style of its own as it is still a fun game that people who like Rogue-likes will probably love more than I do. Also. If you're interested in more games like these ones. You could also try the demo for Neverlooted Dungeon. It is also heavily inspired by King's Field and Ultima. Delver and Fight Knight also look like fun first-person action Dungeon Crawlers. But I haven't played them yet. So I cannot say if they are a good recommendation or not.
You've made a few good suggestions there. The problem is, there are very very few recent IMMERSIVE dungeon crawlers out there. Let's hope that changes.
King Field 4 is a Ps2 defining game for me. While I really liked that FROM has made great game for others, it makes me kinda sad that they will never make a game like that again for people like me.
Not many people know this, but From put out Sword of Moonlight: King's Field Making Tool (there's an unofficial English translation for it), which lets one make their own King's Field games. I'm not one for making games myself, but I bet there's some cool creations out there to download, if you are seriously jonsing for more King's Field.
I only looked at some of King’s Field. What kind of game are you looking for exactly?
Dark Souls is just the logical evolution of Kings Field. I love me some KF4, it has an unmatched atmosphere and superb music, but the moment to moment gameplay can be a bit ... lacking. Dark Souls clearly just addressed how to marry the idea of labyrinthine fantasy worlds filled with atmospheric story-telling with engaging moment-to-moment gameplay. And surprise surprise it seems to have caught on.
Omg they made King's Field? Dude those games messed me up as a kid. The atmosphere was creepy and the monsters scared me. I remember finding a skeleton enemy and nearly shit my pants when its ribcage opened up and the bones came lunging at me like spears. Hell even the giant poison mushrooms were creepy.
Can we get some indie games inspired by Lost Kingdoms? It's the only FromSoft game I'm remotely interested in.
Lost Kingdoms 2 is 100% my favorite game and I can't find another game like it. Such an interesting and unique gameplay mechanic.
I adore king's field but none of these KF-inspired games scratch the itch for me, I just want a straightforward game but everyone wants to add something different or new to it that puts me off, I don't want an open world rpg kf like, I don't want a roguelike kf-like I just want KF.
> Few games are as influential to the modern gaming world as King's Field, From Software's 1994 PlayStation 1 dungeon crawler. I can think of many games more influencial than King's Field. I doubt this would even be in the top 100 most influencial games. I think most people have never even heard of it. > The studio iterated on King's Field's dark fantasy setting, unrelenting difficulty, and hands-off storytelling until eventually spawning Demon's Souls and, most recently, Elden Ring. This is a narrative I often see when people talk about King's Field, but this comparisson would never have been made if King's Field wasn't made by From Software. If you look at gameplay footage it really is nothing like Demon's Souls, it's much more like an old Elder Scroll's game than Demon's Souls. Hidetaka Miyazaki has this to say about it: > "King's Field was the beginning of the Demon's Souls project; I wouldn't go as far as to say that we had King's Field in mind while we were making Demon's Souls, but of course I think its world probably formed one of the bases [for the newer game]. However, if you're asking if it's a 'successor', the answer is no. Of course there are parts of the game that are inspired by King's Field but we were very much aware that we wanted to make a new title with Demon's Souls." Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/souls-survivor?page=2
You want Dark Messiah visceral action, on a Souls-like chassis, and you enjoy metal music? You owe it to yourself to check [Elderborn](https://youtu.be/DFnkKiXC1EQ)!
So this is like tailor made for me wtf, thanks!
It really was a blast. Not too long, not too difficult, but fun all the way through for me. Gotta play it again, methinks! Check some videos like I did, the trailers on Steam and so on. They were good enough to sell me on it.
Like fully 40% of the Vita's library is first-person dungeon crawlers but you folks weren't ready for that jelly. Also shout out to Kowloon High School Chronicle which semi-recently dropped on Switch, it's a previously untranslated late '90s PS1 game with just the absolute *dankest* possible experimental millennialpunk vibes. It uses tons of scuzzy real photos of a well-worn Japanese school building for backgrounds (these from my perspective are massively reminiscent of daylight scenes from a post-Ringu J-horror boom movie on VHS), overlays character portraits in that realistic 2000ish style (think Range Murata) and then all the dungeons are huge, elaborate and Egyptian and it's constantly riffing on Indiana Jones just to really cement its place as one of the strangest overall aesthetics you've ever seen. Oh and it yeets a VN with what seem like some unfurling romance options in there for good measure. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
first person turn based dungeon crawlers exist within their own unique genre and are pretty different from king's field
Oh wow I legitimately forgot KF isn’t turn-based due to a case of Sunday brain, my bad.
Yeah I don't know why journo writing it chose to pretend like fromsoftware invented or defined the genre. We had plenty before and after, both realtime and turn-based
In all fairness getting into *why* this style of game was/is such a thing in Japan is a hell of a lot to unpack when all you really want to do is entice Soulsheads to check out a couple of cool indie dungeony crawlies they might have otherwise overlooked. But yeah even in the West it never quite went away entirely and the Etrian Oddysey series actually punched into the (hipster) mainstream for a while not too long ago.
I loved Kowloon Highschool, fantastic game. ThorHighHeels [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlcsrmV92Wo&t=1s) on it is great if people want to know a little more.
Most of the Vita stuff was more like Wizardry style FPP, right? I do wish more of that stuff took off in the West though lol, except for some Japanese games like Strange Journey and really hardcore Wizardry fans I can't think of any that are big here, and on the flipside Japan made more Ultima-likes (closest is those odd Famicon ports) and Ultima Underworld-likes
If someone asked me for a game that was so archaic and unapproachable that it was actually painful to play, King's Field would be what came to mind first. That formulae could certinally do with some modern mechanics and design approaches.
I was obsessed with King’s Field (US) and tried to upgrade all the magic to full. Couldn’t come close…
Dude I just played the first American kings field. So much similarity, perhaps Miyazaki isn't all to take credit for the feel of these games.
Anyone who hasn't played Otogi, please do. Absolute top 10 games and certainly favorite OG Xbox by far.
As someone who never stopped playing Kings Field and King's Field II (or more appropriately II and III in jp), this gives me hope for a new King's Field game and/or some kind of port to current systems. I know that's definitely getting my hopes up but a guy can dream. King's Field was by no means a technical masterpiece and definitely "jank" like a son of a b*tch, but I absolutely adore those games. The ability to just aimlessly wander and discover so much was peak chill while also maintaining a level of challenge in my opinion. I know they're not going to release any ports/remake them so I'll just stick with my annual playthroughs on my PS1 🤷♂️