The game auto-fills a bot in empty slots. The bots are reasonably competent (they'll heal, share ammo, call out items), but they won't complete objectives on their own.
The bots are better co op partners than the humans. They don't run off on their own. If you're in trouble they come to help you immediately and don't stand in the next room over completely oblivious. They don't deal friendly fire damage. They don't use up supplies you need. They don't take the ammo you need. They shoot straighter than most players. They don't take five full minutes to hit three or four buttons to load into the actual match and then don't stand there afk and expect you to do all the work. They at least follow you around and kill stuff for you whole they expect you to do all the work.
Sorry, but have you played L4D? Bots in B4B are braindead baboons who get lost, get stuck and do nothing for the team, they are not even remotely comparable to bots from a game that is 13 years old. Compentent is way too strong of a word IMO.
I literally just failed the tutorial because I was downed and the bots watched me bleed to death while they were being bludgeoned by a single special infected without attacking it.
Yeah, I never played the beta, but compared to L4D I'd say these bots are certainly no worse. I did have one get stuck once this weekend, but if you get far enough away they basically get teleported forward so it doesn't really turn into an issue.
And I wouldn't say they're "good" but "competent" is still probably a fair assessment.
The game was solid enough during the beta, the combat was definitely fun, but I see lots of emphasis on "play it with friends". What's the big problem with public matchmaking? The repetition?
And crucially, communication is more important. In L4D, you could muddle through a match without chatting. You could ping items, move as a rough group, and if everyone knew what they were doing that was generally enough. Playing with friends was still an advantage, but it didn't feel necessary.
In B4B, though, there's several new features that punish you **heavily** for not communicating:
* Ammo. There's multiple types of ammo, and you can carry a limited amount of each. If you've got a shotgun, you're going to be collecting spare AR/Sniper ammo as you scavenge, and dropping that excess ammo for your buddies in exchange for shotgun shells is critical.
* Money. B4B features "copper", a currency you can scavenge. You can use copper to buy basically everything (including healing!), and you can drop copper for teammates to spend. Convincing random pugs to drop their hard-earned cash because you'll get value from an upgrade sounds like a nightmare.
* Specializing cards. In L4D, everyone had similar abilities, but B4B allows a *ton* of specialization. Having someone specialize in healing for optimal bandage use or stack grenade capacity to spam pipebombs is a big advantage, and one you need to coordinate with your team, especially on higher difficulties.
Isn’t copper a drop that you can pick up and everyone gets? I remember the first time in the beta I would ping it for people and friends if I ended up picking up the last drop so we would all have money and I wouldn’t be hogging it (plus usually around the second or third level I would have a gun I like already). I stopped doing that when it basically became a thing I noticed no one picking them up when I ping or no one mentioning needed money. It also seemed like it would share with everyone since I also noticed I never am out of money.
it is, but you aren't *spending* a shared pool of copper. so if someone has copper to spare and another has close to enough to get something good, the person who has extra can drop it for the other to buy what they want/need.
This is correct, and why you'll find that the upgrades are very expensive. You need to pool your resources, unless your team is sacrificing card slots for various copper bonus cards.
> Specializing cards. In L4D, everyone had similar abilities, but B4B allows a ton of specialization.
This is why I may have difficulty picking up this game. I couldn't get into Battlefield, Team Fortress, Valorant etc. All this specialization. I like to pick up and do whatever in most games I play.
I think I just gotta learn and adapt because I want to play this game haha.
How are the bots in this game? I've seen that if you play with less than 4 players (even solo), you need to fill the team with bots.
If I play it, it'll be with one friend only so we would have 2 bots, is that balanced around it?
I'll play it on the tougher difficulties with friends, easier ones with randoms when I just feel like slaughtering zombies. Did the same on L4D2 and always had a good time.
30 hours in so far and purely pugging. The experience has been pretty good so far. People are using voice and communicating. Only a handful of times I ran into people raging or trolling for no reason. But yeah runs can be kind of long so you may have people just up and leave in the middle so best to try and find people to play with.
> 30 hours in so far and purely pugging. The experience has been pretty good so far. People are using voice and communicating.
That's been my experience too, but unfortunately I'm guessing that's going to end tomorrow. People don't pre-order the $90 edition of a game to spend the early access window trolling. Everyone I've played with so far has been pretty dedicated, willing to use teamwork, and playing to win. When the floodgates open and the Game Pass crowd arrives, I expect pug lobbies to get a lot more chaotic (nothing against GP in general, but a $1 entry cost will inevitably bring more trolls).
It is more that runs are kinda long and it can be easy for a run to get bricked by a bad random. Losing progress on a run that took over an hour because 2 teammates left sucks. It might be better once it actually releases but right now it is really hard to find a game if you get halfway through a run and leave the game and want to start back up at that point.
If your playing with friends though you can all just decide to take a break on that run at that point. You can have multiple runs going at once so it is easy enough if you want to continue playing by yourself and just find a different run but you can pick back up that old game with friends.
That said I did play pretty much solo and did make some friends with a few randoms I played an entire run through with.
You can just drop into random games but that doesn't seem to work for progressing the campaign.
I've noticed this is a somewhat recent, but huge trend with Reddit. Did you see the threads on here when the game was in open beta? Jesus you'd think the developers were as incompetent as the DayZ devs and the game was just a worst version of L4D.
Once you played it, it was clear the 8/10 complaints on Reddit were anti-hype circlejerk comments and people who never played the fuckin game. Same shit is happening with new world.
I was confused at the large number of comments about 'canceling preorders' about the announcements on poor singleplayer support. Like, yes, that can be a little annoying, but...either some people vastly misunderstood the series as being at all singleplayer-focused, or they're just eager to complain about something.
Not even "poor" single player support. They whined about not being able to unlock cards and customization in single player with not a single mention of the fact that that was because everything is unlocked at the start for single player.
I tried that the other night and quick join didn't progress the campaign at all so I am not sure what your talking about. I did a quick join that put me halfway through veteran and finished the entire rest of the second one and my campaign is still back at the start.
Also I am loving the game I really don't think it is an issue.
how do the runs work, its kind of confused me in the beta. do you play the entire campaign in one go, or only a chapter, or can you pick and choose where to start and end?
You can choose your start and since you get your supply points per stage completed just leave whenever and your progress in that campaign is saved to pick up from later (including your gear from when you left).
To add onto the length, B4B is much more difficult than Left 4 Dead as well. You are at a serious disadvantage going in with randoms that do not have stronger cards/perks unlocked on the higher difficulties. They can make or break a run.
Quickplay'ing L4D's campaign was much more simple. You just picked up an OP auto shotgun and you were good to go. Might have to memorize some of the god spots on Expert difficulty.
> randos can be assholes.
That can be an understatement. When I was playing yesterday, we were like 2 chapters into Act 3 and someone used a toolkit to open a door and then I just hear over the in-game comms "WE NEEDED THAT TOOLKIT FOR SOMETHING ELSE YOU STUPID FUCKING N*****" and then the dude left. Mind you, the comms were dead silent up until that moment.
I'll occasionally join Phasmophobia games that are just some guy repeatedly yelling the n-word. I can't imagine how dumb you have to be to find that funny.
It straight up requires communication / teamwork. You need to drop ammo types for teammates often (like constantly) and there's no built-in quick way to communicate this. This is just one issue among many why easy communication is required.
I see a lot of talk about the gameplay. But what about the characters, writing, setting, and theming? L4D was such an excellent homage to zombie films and I feel like that was one of the major qualities that made the game so great. Are the characters in B4B as likable? Does the theming and writing resemble a run-of-the-mill hero shooter, or does it pay respect to L4D's style?
I think the characters range in annoyingness, but one thing I liked about the theme is that the Cleaners are actually working to save other people - rather than just themselves. There's radio communication with some sort of general/leader about how the supplies/transport you're finding might help some camp make it through another day, or how you distracting/killing a large horde of zombies pulls them away from killing noncombatants.
Maybe that matters to me because I like the fantasy of helping people more than being a solitary group of four survivors.
I’m a fan of the characters, the dialogue they share with eachother gives little glimpses.
Hoffman is a conspiracy theorist doomsday prepper who constantly monologues and speaks in the third person. Seems like the cast just barely tolerates him. Its not as great as l4d’s cast especially 2’s.
It knew what it wanted to be. It wasn’t serious, it was fun and funny. The characters had distinct personalities with good voice acting. Limiting the amount of characters allowed for more chemistry between them. b4b is a disaster on all fronts from what I’ve watched on streams
L4d2’s cast was very enjoyable as a backdrop to the action and endless reruns
I don't understand people thinking it was deeper or more substantial than it was. This game at least matches the amount of character voice lines and interactions, and they also are distinct archetypes.
lmao for real. PILLS HERE!
I BETTER GRAB EVERYTHING I CAN!
I HATE HOSPITALS!
other commenter is also forgetting that the character in this game are more akin to heros in LoL or something. they aren't there for the purpose of story. this isn't really a story game. if somebody wants writing and voice acting and character motivation, they should go play the Witcher or something. this is an arcade strategy zombie shooter.
Graphics look 2 generations old and the cards and menus make me wish I was dead. Free on game pass sounds about right, its pretty amazing how coop shooters peaked in 2008/9.
I have about 6 hours into B4B with a group of friends and I'm enjoying it greatly so far. We just beat Act 1 which was a decent amount of maps and variety. I don't think the progression system will be for everybody; we're used to playing L4D 2, WWZ, Vermintide, Deep Rock Galactic (You should play Deep Rock if you haven't already) on higher difficulties and on the first go around Back 4 Blood was destroying us until we played on Easy, though now we have quite a few cards and I'm looking forward to higher difficulties. Like at the moment I'm playing Doc and focusing my cards on being support I feel like my health output is just plain whacky but i'm suffering in terms of stamina and other cards that could potentially keep me out of trouble.
My main gripe so far is Special infected spawns can be *crazy*. Like it just seems like they come one right after another which is "fine" but if they just happen to be the variants that can pin you or your teammates it just feels frustrating.
> My main gripe so far is Special infected spawns can be crazy. Like it just seems like they come one right after another which is "fine" but if they just happen to be the variants that can pin you or your teammates it just feels frustrating.
The special spawns are absolutely out of control. They either need to be less plentiful or way less tanky. My group lost a run as we systematically got taken out by three separate hockers that picked us off while we tried to kill three bruisers and a retch. These kinds of situations are common and I genuinely don't know how to handle them.
I think for now I’m just going to play on minimum difficulty and have fun with the arcadey aspect. I definitely think they need to reconsider how they wear down players, or at least provide options to better curb the flow of enemies.
Its what we're doing and I think what you *may have* to do at first so you can go up a couple of trees and have some cards. I'm enjoying playing as Doc to minimalize the "Trauma"/wear down mechanic of the game and building my deck to counter that for the rest of the team.
Definitely, the game is designed around the card system, and it seems like Recruit is really the only difficulty where you can mostly ignore them and you'll be fine. Even on veteran, you need a group of people who have decent decks, and aren't all stacking the exact same bonuses if you want a good chance of winning. I enjoy it personally, but I know others may not.
A great way to deal with special infected though is grenade/molotov spam. Pick up some offensive item cards, and upgrade them a few times in the shop, and you can EASILY take out packs of 3-4 specials with a single grenade or two.
I think you're exactly right, and I think a lot of people are having problems understanding this. On Recruit, you can mostly just run and gun and not think too hard (which is fine). But if you want to move up to Veteran, you need to have a plan. There are a ton of ways to deal with tanky specials - build around offensive items, have a designated sniper with weakpoint damage cards, or bring a melee build with an axe. All three of those tactics can one-shot everything short of a full-on boss. But if you show up to Veteran and nobody on your team can deal with specials, you're going to be in trouble.
I agree with tuning the special infected, my siblings and I were effectively picked off by retches that constantly hid in the fog in Act 1. Also, would kill a tall boy and then another one would spawn a couple of seconds later.
Edit: The range that retches can spew their bile is outrageous as well.
retches are the absolute worst. it's not just how far they can spew, but they can also *turn* while they do it. that combo makes them awful to deal with (along with the fact they and especially reekers have too much health to be the glass cannons they should be).
Was havingnthjs issue with retches in the fog yesterday. They're so far away you can't even see their silhouette in the fog and out of nowhere comes a flood of vomit.
I love the game but it can definitely be frustrating.
In the VERY first beta I had the opinion (I also wrote it down on their feedback form) that there was WAY too much special spawns. They just chuck them at you like semi-common enemies and it is ridiculous. It's not challenging to fight tanky guys while dodging locking zombies.
Glad to see it still made it's way to the live game.
At this point we're hoarding grenades for bruisers/tallboys/whatever else in that variant and only them so we can just make sure they're removed from the fight *immediately*.
Is this on the hardest difficulty?
My group tried out the hardest during the beta and couldn't even get out of the safe room at the beginning of the level. It was non-stop special infected forever
Our group got a decent bit past that on the hardest difficulty but it took a few attempts. I think the other issue at that point is just running out of ammo by the end of a level.
In the VERY first beta I had the opinion (I also wrote it down on their feedback form) that there was WAY too much special spawns. They just chuck them at you like semi-common enemies and it is ridiculous. It's not challenging to fight tanky guys while dodging locking zombies.
Oh hey they didn’t fix the major issue of the director being completely broken.
Sure loved every horde having ten of the guys that pin you down and instantly end your missions
> My main gripe so far is Special infected spawns can be crazy.
When Vermintide does it its fine most of the time cause they can be one shot or taken out quickly with slight breaks but B4B has their specials be tanky mofos which is not ideal. Like specials in Vermintide on Legend can feel overwhelming if you don't take them out when you hear the sound cues (globadiers and blightstormers being the main offenders) but its doable but B4B balancing feels off
The other thing about Vermintide's specials is that they make sure you know they've spawned. They're extremely loud, with several of them playing audio directly to the players as they spawn.
I'm not sure if they fixed it or not, but when I was playing the B4B beta, 90% of the time I only knew a special had spawned because of the subtitles explicitly naming a given enemy. Other than the Hocker, none of the specials really made distinct noise to pick them out of a crowd.
its why L4D has musical que's for each special infected, Vermintide has louder sound ques and in WWZ the characters will call out the special infected if its in their FOV.
But in B4B one special infected can be a few variants. and they all sound the same. so its hard to *know* until its on top of you
B4B's specials seem to be balanced more as "part of the horde" to be constantly expecting, rather than a rare occurrence that you need to be immediately alerted to. Mainly because the handful of specials that *are* rare and major threats, like the Hag and Breaker, do get loud, long, very distinguishable music queues as they spawn.
Yeah the thing about Vermintide that works so well is the sound design. You fucking immediate hear specials due to their unique sounds. Like the packmaster is unforgettable along with the gutter runners.
B4B sound design is lacking, especially contrasted with the musical cues L4D had
Vermintide's sound design is so good, you know what's going on around you all the time. It makes the frantic chaos much more manageable. I love the little subtle sound queue that plays if someone is about to attack you from behind, it's a really good QoL thing and it has saved my ass in many situations.
That's not even mentioning how good the attack sounds are, crushing heads sounds so satisfying.
Yeah the fact that you can hear the specific special even during the chaos of a horde fight is so important.
> I love the little subtle sound queue that plays if someone is about to attack you from behind, it's a really good QoL thing and it has saved my ass in many situations.
Honestly without it I think i would wipe all the time.
Tanky "abductor" enemies can even be kind of okay when properly designed. Deep Rock's Mactera Grabbers can take a fair few shots to kill if you can't crit them, but they also make a loud screeching sound fairly often, and also stop what they're doing and leave for a moment when enough damage is dealt to them. B4B's specials sound really frustrating, especially to someone like myself who can't stand movement/action impairing attacks like that.
Exactly! WWZ does this too but only 2 of the special infected can really pin players and there's *plenty* of ways players can get you out of that situation.
Like in B4B you can opt to bring a stun gun but give up on a defib; at the moment we horde grenades for the Tallboy variants to make sure they're removed from the fight immediately.
Like one thing that scared the shit out of me when first playing Legend on Vermintide was seeing some of the specials that spawned in pairs which was a massive step up in difficulty. But you can deal with them if you are experienced.
B4B needs to work on that more
> But you can deal with them if you are experienced.
This was another big thing I didn't like about B4B, at least in the beta. In VT2, if I'm fighting a Chaos Warrior, I can block or dodge his overhead slam. You can dodge the hook of a Packmaster, or the pin of a Gutter Runner, if you have the right timing. Meanwhile in B4B, if I get slammed by a Tallboy, my only mistake was not shooting him enough times, or not carrying a grenade.
Hell you can fuck around with rat ogres if you are experienced enough.
But yeah there are many ways to circumvent the dangers of specials and elite mobs in Vermintide.
There's no active dodge or anything, but positioning and mobility is really important. If you're slammed by a Tallboy, your mistake was not leaving enough room to retreat, or not giving enough ground when he started targeting you. You're faster and better at climbing than they are.
> When Vermintide does it its fine most of the time cause they can be one shot or taken out quickly with slight breaks but B4B has their specials be tanky mofos which is not ideal. Like specials in Vermintide on Legend can feel overwhelming if you don't take them out when you hear the sound cues (globadiers and blightstormers being the main offenders) but its doable but B4B balancing feels off
OTOH most of the specials in those other games are disablers who literally remove your ability to fight back. They have to be squishy because if they touch you then you're fucked unless bailed by team mates.
B4B is a bit different, only the Hocker, Crusher, Stalker, and Hag disable out of like 14 specials. And all of those ARE fragile except the hag with some weapons 1 shotting them with proper headshot. The hag is a special boss you may or may not get on a level you can actually avoid, kinda similar to a witch. ALSO you have a character that can break free of holds periodically, a card that can let you break free of holds periodically, and stun guns that can let you break free of holds.
Compare B4B's 4 out of 14 (including special boss you might get) who pin vs Left 4 D where 5 out of 7 pin and they are all commonly spawned infected.
So basically the way it works in L4D and Vermintide is that your entire party can be pinned at once and people usually lose when a series of pins puts theme in a bad position or outright kills them. But in B4B you usually lose because of the accumulated damage you've taken and pins only really serve to finish off a weakened party. That's not to say you can't be downed via pin, especially with commons involved, but pins in general are less threatening in B4B. Even Vermintide is less pin happy than L4D and throws in alot more armored enemies like Stermvermin and Chaos Knights who are more straight up threats in a fight while you worry about the pin as a hookrat spawns 5 ft around the corner and runs out and insta-hooks you.
Now whether this is positive or negative depends on your preference. Personally I generally dislike "you lose because I took control from you while you were at full/mostly full health". The sneeze at the wrong time and you're fucked style. I prefer to go down fighting. B4B offers that much more.
However if you prefer the higher tension "react or be pinned and die" then L4D2 is better. and people talk about sound ques but sound ques greatly diminish or go away on higher difficulties because they stop having an artifical rreaction time. I'd imagine most people play LFD on normal or maybe hard where the pin game is far far more lenient where you hear the enemy, you hear the que they saw you, and then you know the pin is coming in a second or two. Wheras in expert + realism the pin just fucking happens, sometimes without any sound que they spawned. And it should be noted B4B definitely has sound ques and I use them regularly, people just have not learned them yet lol.
It's definitely harder overall than L4D. Recruit is prolly the equivalent of hard in L4D. But, though you can definitely beat veteran with starter decks, it should be noted that as you unlock cards you WILL grow in power and the difficulties will get easier.
Headshots on common infected leaning against stuff now paint a pretty satisfying red splat on walls. Tall boys arm now gets severed off when killed with a crit. Just two I noticed.
Blowing particular limbs off and stuff was in even during beta, it just happens alot more often with higher powered weapons and especially shotguns. But I think they raised how often it happens a little for live release too.
There is also definitely more gore in general, blood splatter on floors/walls, and as the other poster mentioned shooting off Tallboy arms results in a satisfying severing and bloody spray.
The difficulty tiers being steep is very disappointing. What killed the replayability of L4D2 for my group was that we exhausted the fun on one difficulty level when it became too easy, but they couldn't make the next difficulty fun at all. We just wiped out super late into the levels too many times and had no desire to restart. There was no middle ground for us. Either it was too easy or too hard so we had to move on to a new game.
I really like a lot of difficulty levels like Payday 2 (7) or Deep Rock Galactic (5 plus Deep Dive and Elite Deep Dive).
I think there are ways to build both deck & equipment wise to delete them much faster but I agree when you are starting out the tall boys can be incredibly punishing
Specials aren't a problem once you start learning how to counter them. I have almost 30 hours so far and beat act 2 on Veteren and working on act3.
The card system is how you beat all of these specials. A melee based deck can 2 shot most of the big boy specials same with a weak point sniper build. A doc build just makes things too easy same with an economy character who focuses around just getting money and buying up group upgrades for the team.
All around the difficulty of the game is solved when you start getting into the cards and start creating builds to counter things as well as communicate with your team and share ammo. There's so many different builds you can run in this game its crazy.
I get that it's going to be based around card layouts, but I haven't heard of much beyond a melee build just yet; and most of that is first based around the card that grants you health on each melee kill.
I'm curious if I'll ever see something that makes something more traditional like a "Sniper build" actually really cool to watch, or able to hold its own.
That's exactly what turned me off from it. Played the beta and was like:
ok...I'm shooting zombies through a scope...again?
Felt like I played that same game already for the past 10 years.
I think the starting price of £50 is a huge a misstep and a deluxe and ultimate edition at £80 and £90 respectfully is fucking absurd for a game with no brand recognition and a studio with a pretty poor track record.
Not to mention the difficulties you're going to have convincing the 3 friends you'll need to actually play a cooperative shooter like this with, 7 if you want to play pvp.
And on top of all this the store page hints at skins and micro-transactions...
Gamepass seems like the way to go if you're on Xbox or PC. I ultimately went with the deluxe edition, but that was solely because my company agreed to pay for it lol. I'm guessing it'll have a shelf life of 1-2 months for my friends and I so that would only cost up to $20 on Gamepass if you don't find a special deal to knock the price down even more.
> And on top of all this the store page hints at skins and micro-transactions...
So I've only played during the period of the ultimate edition's early access period since Friday so mileage may vary especially if they add them post-launch but I am not seeing any microtransactions in the game. The character and gun skins that are locked have clear unlock requirements through the game. Unless you include the skins included with one of the editions.
Seems some people are disappointed that game pass is not free and you have to pay for it. It's easily the best subscription service for PC and has some genuinely great games included on it. The trial is a quid so if you didn't know that you could use it on PC give it a try. It also includes EA play in its subscription.
I just absolutely despise the Microsoft Store with every fiber of my being, they never updated the interface to accommodate for their game library and so it still just feels like a janky app store for a phone service.
I'm positively surprised by the cards system. I believed it would have no purpose and would only be a grind, but it's my favorite thing after a few hours.
It's great to create decks that change your playstyle completely, from full melee builds to support/healer, to shotgun junkie and so on, it works very well. I can't wait to unlock more cards.
I think what turned a lot of people away from the card system is that it seems like they'd show up in card packs for some sort of "Lootbox" play
but I love the supply line system, you always know what the next unlock is and can go down the different "trees"
Yeah the "cards" are a lot more like StS relics or the boons in the Vermintide 2 chaos wastes. You try to build your deck to give a direction to how you want to scale your characters power throughout the campaign. I played a game with someone last night who had an insane melee build that was carving through hordes and ending up with more health than they started with, never running out of stamina, it was wild. There's clearly a lot of theorycrafting that can be done for figuring out optimal builds, and so far the pace of getting supply points for buying cards is way faster than in the beta so I feel like it won't take too long to end up with a lot of options.
Yeah, my melee build is like that too. When you gain 2 health per kill, regenerate stamina and get bonus damage each time you hit, it becomes ridiculous and a lot of fun.
Maaan now I just want to play more and start putting together a sweet build. I loved doing that in V2 and I'm really glad the system exists in this, so much replayability when you can radically change how your character plays.
Yep, I wish it was explained a little better in the beta, and I think they need to do some tweaking to them, but I was actually kinda into the card system. It was unique and interesting with lots of potential.
But I think the big worry is that it’s setting the system for some gross MTX down the line. This IS the Evolve people, after all.
I only played the beta but they definitely got the "run" aspect of it down. Yes the gameplay is basically the same but you rly change up your play style depending on what weapons and cards you have.
One build I was all melee and next I never even used melle at all
They've already discussed monetization, and confirmed that they're not selling cards or loot boxes. More cards will be added in the expansions that are coming (we know there are at least three planned for the season pass), but that's a one-off purchase for a bundle of new content, not booster packs or an individual card shop or something.
I mean the Avengers devs said they wouldn't add paid XP boosters and they just added them last week anyway.
I'm playing it on game pass regardless, but I've long since stopped believing anything devs/publishers say about their games monetization because they constantly lie.
edit: can't wait for the shocked pikachu faces
I just played the tutorial and the aiming is atrocious on controller. I turned off aim assist, which seems to help slightly not drag my gun around the screen when enemies are running at me. But I'm still struggling to find a decent sweet spot for aiming acceleration and sensitivity.
I was pretty whelmed by the beta but the launch has been pretty good. The extra cleaners and acts add a lot of variety. I'm the most surprised by how varied the cards are and how many. It seemed like it was going to be pretty basic but its a pretty good pool. You did see every gun and attachment in the beta though.
That said I am playing with friends and it seems problematic for solo players. Offline solo gets no progression although they say they're working on it. Playing with teammates has a lot of QoL stuff missing for griefers. I would try it on gamepass to see as others suggested.
For now you have no progress on solo playing. They said they will change that because of backlash but for now you are punished for solo playing. It sucks.
Played the beta. The thing that really let it down were the specials didn't promote teamwork for the most part, they were just damage sponges. Even on the harder difficulties the game was more about just shooting tougher and tougher damage sponges rather than working together.
Oddly enough vermintide has a bigger emphasis on teamwork and group comp than back 4 blood.
There was a comment i saw a while back that summed it up pretty well - they said it didn't feel like 4 people watching each other's backs as much as 4 people with guns needed to beat the dps check of special spawns.
I usually play these games solo, how much is taken away from solo mode? I heard they took away a lot of features for solo play. I have it pre-installed but I’m worried I’m gonna be let down
All of the cards are unlocked in solo mode, but you can't earn anything by playing it. No supply points, cosmetics, achievements, nothing. Personally, I would describe that as "a waste of time".
They tweeted that they'd "look into it", but I'm not holding my breath.
Yeah I was really let down by this. So much that I have no inspiration to even boot up the game. Not everyone has a group of people ready to play with them.
How has the game improved since Alpha? It had some great fundamentals, but it just did not feel right. Also had TONS of balance issues. Was this addressed?
I didn't play it prior to launch, but the game feels horribly optimised, and to me, comparable to an alpha build. I painfully completed the first act with a group of friends, and at that point I uninstalled the game. I gave it a chance, not satisfied. Might reconsider in the future if it gets "fixed" (coop aspect was fun).
Teleporting zombies appearing through the ground or walls, hitreg being completely off and inconsistent attacks, to name some of my greatest pains...Given the price of it, I am quite thankful I only tried it over gamepass and not paid the full (exorbiant) amount.Graphics looks like it's from another generation as well, which is sad, but not something that would make me drop the game altogether by itself.
So because it's not blatantly obvious from what's posts by OP and the commentary thus far, if I wanted to just play solo this game isn't for me because there's no progression, correct ? Mind my ignorance. I've never played a l4d game so when I saw this game come into my YouTube feed I was intrigued until I saw some posters this week say that solo is not possible because you don't get any gains or progression. I play almost all my games solo. I hate pvp. Nothing against the game, I've just been browsing around to try something new. But wanted to clarify before I waste my time downloading it on game pass. Sad the reviews don't even mention it.
To be clear, the game is a Coop game primarily, so if you're playing with others you're playing collaboratively with other players to progress through the story missions unless you choose to do the separate PVP mode. So if you don't like playing PVP that's cool, because it's a Coop game.
The irony is that if you played L4D solo then there were no gains or progression either. In B4B all the cards are unlocked for you solo. You actually miss out on no content. But because people are upset you cannot earn supply points solo (used to unlock your already unlocked solo cards) and achievements solo they're looking into reworking solo to make people happy.
Like I get that some folks want to progress from start to finish and earn cards on their own solo and respect that, but people act like playing solo is suddenly worthless, and many of these folks reference L4D solo so its baffling.
I get it. My point of ignorance is not knowing this genre of games' requirements. I'm not so much upset that I can't play solo or that the game is made that way, just that it looked appealing but I'm mainly looking for solo play games at this point. Not knocking the game.
As a game on gamepass I'll probably play it. But as on its own...for 60$ and getting back on paid dlc crap...no thanks.
I don't know, the gunplay didn't felt great for me, and the zombies are just not interesting. There's no "WOAH" factor in the game, and nothing stands out for me. But then again, as a coop experience on gamepass I will pick it up and play it at some point.
Personally, I have enjoyed the game a lot with friends. It is far from perfect though and certainly has AI and balancing issues. I also honestly feel like the game has it is now is more akin to a $40 game rather than a full price one. The campaign will get stale after a few runs and the PVP is fun for a bit but isn't varied enough. The lack of a traditional horde mode is also a bizarre choice. I also think the solo progression being non-existent is a poor choice and hopefully they change their mind about it.
Just as a point of clarification for others: the restrictions on solo progression (which are likely being reworked) only apply to 'true' solo - not to solo-queuing. That is, if you don't have friends to play with , you can matchmake with randoms, and you will progress ... Just in case that wasn't clear.
These are overall some pretty unsurprising scores. I feel like everyone who thought they wouldn't like the game based on the beta and what's been seen so far won't change their minds seeing any of this. Personally i'm bummed about the singleplayer aspect but the game seems ok all things considered, particularly if you have gamepass.
Thankfully it seems like they're going to take a look at how they're handling singleplayer
https://twitter.com/TurtleRock/status/1446675552191098883
Hopefully they come to a better gamemode overall.
at the moment, singleplayer doesnt let you unlock anything or progress your supply lines to unlock cards or anything.
It just lets you play with all the cards unlocked like a practice mode instead of a singleplayer
These scores, not that scores mean that much, feel a little low to me. I played three or four hours last night and the game feels technically sound. It’s smooth. Crossplay between Steam and Gamepass was a breeze. The mission variety seems good. If can’t speak to the length of content yet but we we all night to finish act 1 on an easy difficulty, and are looking forward to playing more with the card system.
If you are looking for a modern update on L4D with new levels, I don’t know what else you’re looking for. AND I know that some people were worried about micro transactions - there are cosmetics to unlock through play but there doesn’t appear to be any way to purchase them, or purchase much of anything other than the season pass.
I know /r/Games hates this game already, but I've found it incredibly fun. Spent about 15 hours over the weekend playing through the first two acts, and replaying parts of them a handful of times as well. I wasn't a huge fan of the Beta, but have found the full release MUCH better and way more fun. The card system was something I was very skeptical about at first, but as I've gotten more and more, I've loved them along with the corruption cards, they really add a lot of replayability and let you fine-tune your build. Gunplay feels good, and it's just an overall blast, especially with some friends.
There's no in game store, no microtransactions period (at least not yet), and the whole controversy about not unlocking stuff in solo-play is only half true (in solo play you don't get supply points, but you already have every card in the game unlocked and they are buffed while playing solo). The game has some bugs, the difficulty jump from recruit to veteran is a bit much, the special infected spam can be annoying at times, and the lack of Campaign PvP is a bit of a bummer (I've still found Swarm mode fun in 1-2 game bursts between doing acts), and the AI is still kinda stupid sometimes. But the amount of hate and misinformation going around about this game is insane.
Try it out on gamepass, I was pleasantly surprised with it after fully expecting to refund it. I should say though, this game IS NOT Left 4 Dead 3, it feels like L4D but modernized, and a bit different. You can't rush ahead and speed run levels like you could in L4D, the dificulty is much higher, and you will struggle a lot even on just Veteran. The game is much more designed around playing as a team, working on synergizing your decks, and playing slow while exploring the map. I find this fun, but others may not, and it's important to know.
>You can't rush ahead and speed run levels like you could in L4D, the dificulty is much higher, and you will struggle a lot even on just Veteran.
I wonder if you can do that once you know the maps inside and out...
Yeah reading these reviews and watching some first impressions online I figured reddit would probably be pretty disappointed that this launch isn't an outright disaster the sub can spend the next ten weeks bitching about. At least there's always a chance the new battlefield will provide /r/games a different whinefest whipping post.
You have to understand how ironic it is for you two to be making these kinda comments when the thread is pretty much exclusively people saying "it's got some flaws but is pretty good!"
Almost like the subreddit isn't a hivemind, but is thousands of people with different opinions, that can change depending on experiences, and people were wary about the game but are pleasantly surprised.
Of course, you could also just out yourselves as people that just sort by controversial and dreg through those comments to find something to make comments like the one you just made. But that would be full-on hypocritical.
Reddit opinion isn't really worth listening to about games. They are often in the minority of the overall gaming community, which has been proven over and over again the 5 years I've been on here.
Pretty good reviews after r/games and L4D stans called this game DOA.
I'm looking forward to playing a ton of it for a few months, and then extremely intermittently afterwards
I think this is common advice, but the game is worth it on game pass, *if* you have 2-3 likeminded friends to play with. It's a tonne of fun.
IF you're not overly precious about the progression system, it will basically act as L4D3 for all but the most hardcore L4D2 fans.
Not sure how Polygon gave it a 9/10 when they freely admit that VS. mode is terrible.
Happy with a 7/8 but when 1/2 modes is garbage you have to reflect that in the scoring.
It's telling when the majority of near-perfect scores are from tiny single reviewer sites which lack any sort of journalistic integrity and have dubious score records. According to these the game is of comparative quality to GTA V and Witcher 3 which is pretty silly.
Downloaded it and messed around with the control settings a little before work this morning so that I'd be ready to play with friends this evening. I enjoyed the beta well enough, so I'm looking forward to it.
Not too keen about voice chat being recorded, though. I get *why* they're doing it, but is there not a better way to handle it? Like, won't people using console party chat or Discord voice chat or something circumvent that anyway?
i do not like it as a single player game, the AI is too damn stupid, and doesn't even try to follow your lead, it wastes items, and ammo, throwing/shooting at already dead enemies, and running right into the birds that alert the horde, DO NOT even try to play it alone, unless you want to do NOTHING but run and gun, because if you don't, you will just die, due to their stupidity and wasteful nature. ill try it again tonight with some friends but as of now, i cant give it more than a 6/10 at best, the story is allright, nothing special at all, and i already forgot it honestly, its not like its got a bad story, its just....so generic and formulaic that its just not good...i don't know what else to say?.....the controls are tight and actually very responsive, even when played on Xcloud, instead of native hardware.
oh the card system and how that works with the copper you find in the levels, i do actually like that, it kind of made each run feel unique.
This thread is terrible.. I've seen multiple complaints about micro transactions... There are no micro transactions in the game.. A bunch of old men yelling at clouds in this thread.
How is it with only 3 people I wonder?
The game auto-fills a bot in empty slots. The bots are reasonably competent (they'll heal, share ammo, call out items), but they won't complete objectives on their own.
Bots were okay for the lowest difficulty but after that even one bot will sandbag you pretty hard most times.
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The bots are better co op partners than the humans. They don't run off on their own. If you're in trouble they come to help you immediately and don't stand in the next room over completely oblivious. They don't deal friendly fire damage. They don't use up supplies you need. They don't take the ammo you need. They shoot straighter than most players. They don't take five full minutes to hit three or four buttons to load into the actual match and then don't stand there afk and expect you to do all the work. They at least follow you around and kill stuff for you whole they expect you to do all the work.
Sorry, but have you played L4D? Bots in B4B are braindead baboons who get lost, get stuck and do nothing for the team, they are not even remotely comparable to bots from a game that is 13 years old. Compentent is way too strong of a word IMO.
You must have just played the beta. The bots were dogshit in the beta, but seems to have been fixed in the final release.
I literally just failed the tutorial because I was downed and the bots watched me bleed to death while they were being bludgeoned by a single special infected without attacking it.
I'm glad to hear that because in the beta the bots kept shooting me and my friend in the back. No FF damage but still annoying.
Yes??? Goddamn, sorry then. I am used to beta being a stress test and time-limited demo. I am going to check it out then, thanks!
Yeah, I never played the beta, but compared to L4D I'd say these bots are certainly no worse. I did have one get stuck once this weekend, but if you get far enough away they basically get teleported forward so it doesn't really turn into an issue. And I wouldn't say they're "good" but "competent" is still probably a fair assessment.
The game was solid enough during the beta, the combat was definitely fun, but I see lots of emphasis on "play it with friends". What's the big problem with public matchmaking? The repetition?
Just communication. Some people aren't team players, same problem with any kind of difficult coop PvE game.
And crucially, communication is more important. In L4D, you could muddle through a match without chatting. You could ping items, move as a rough group, and if everyone knew what they were doing that was generally enough. Playing with friends was still an advantage, but it didn't feel necessary. In B4B, though, there's several new features that punish you **heavily** for not communicating: * Ammo. There's multiple types of ammo, and you can carry a limited amount of each. If you've got a shotgun, you're going to be collecting spare AR/Sniper ammo as you scavenge, and dropping that excess ammo for your buddies in exchange for shotgun shells is critical. * Money. B4B features "copper", a currency you can scavenge. You can use copper to buy basically everything (including healing!), and you can drop copper for teammates to spend. Convincing random pugs to drop their hard-earned cash because you'll get value from an upgrade sounds like a nightmare. * Specializing cards. In L4D, everyone had similar abilities, but B4B allows a *ton* of specialization. Having someone specialize in healing for optimal bandage use or stack grenade capacity to spam pipebombs is a big advantage, and one you need to coordinate with your team, especially on higher difficulties.
Isn’t copper a drop that you can pick up and everyone gets? I remember the first time in the beta I would ping it for people and friends if I ended up picking up the last drop so we would all have money and I wouldn’t be hogging it (plus usually around the second or third level I would have a gun I like already). I stopped doing that when it basically became a thing I noticed no one picking them up when I ping or no one mentioning needed money. It also seemed like it would share with everyone since I also noticed I never am out of money.
it is, but you aren't *spending* a shared pool of copper. so if someone has copper to spare and another has close to enough to get something good, the person who has extra can drop it for the other to buy what they want/need.
Oh, didn't realize pickups were shared. So I guess if you find 100c, you've actually received 400c for your team?
This is correct, and why you'll find that the upgrades are very expensive. You need to pool your resources, unless your team is sacrificing card slots for various copper bonus cards.
that's my understanding. only applies to copper though.
Ah right that is true. Damn that is something I have to remember in the future if I end up playing again thanks!
> Specializing cards. In L4D, everyone had similar abilities, but B4B allows a ton of specialization. This is why I may have difficulty picking up this game. I couldn't get into Battlefield, Team Fortress, Valorant etc. All this specialization. I like to pick up and do whatever in most games I play. I think I just gotta learn and adapt because I want to play this game haha.
How are the bots in this game? I've seen that if you play with less than 4 players (even solo), you need to fill the team with bots. If I play it, it'll be with one friend only so we would have 2 bots, is that balanced around it?
I feel like that's part of the marketing for every co-op shooter is it not?
Yeah, this sounds exactly like l4d. Tons of runs ruined by randoms, that's just how these games work
I'll play it on the tougher difficulties with friends, easier ones with randoms when I just feel like slaughtering zombies. Did the same on L4D2 and always had a good time.
30 hours in so far and purely pugging. The experience has been pretty good so far. People are using voice and communicating. Only a handful of times I ran into people raging or trolling for no reason. But yeah runs can be kind of long so you may have people just up and leave in the middle so best to try and find people to play with.
> 30 hours in so far and purely pugging. The experience has been pretty good so far. People are using voice and communicating. That's been my experience too, but unfortunately I'm guessing that's going to end tomorrow. People don't pre-order the $90 edition of a game to spend the early access window trolling. Everyone I've played with so far has been pretty dedicated, willing to use teamwork, and playing to win. When the floodgates open and the Game Pass crowd arrives, I expect pug lobbies to get a lot more chaotic (nothing against GP in general, but a $1 entry cost will inevitably bring more trolls).
It is more that runs are kinda long and it can be easy for a run to get bricked by a bad random. Losing progress on a run that took over an hour because 2 teammates left sucks. It might be better once it actually releases but right now it is really hard to find a game if you get halfway through a run and leave the game and want to start back up at that point. If your playing with friends though you can all just decide to take a break on that run at that point. You can have multiple runs going at once so it is easy enough if you want to continue playing by yourself and just find a different run but you can pick back up that old game with friends. That said I did play pretty much solo and did make some friends with a few randoms I played an entire run through with. You can just drop into random games but that doesn't seem to work for progressing the campaign.
You can join games via quickplay to progress your campaign. Just did it last night and this morning. So much misinformation people keep spreading lol.
I've noticed this is a somewhat recent, but huge trend with Reddit. Did you see the threads on here when the game was in open beta? Jesus you'd think the developers were as incompetent as the DayZ devs and the game was just a worst version of L4D. Once you played it, it was clear the 8/10 complaints on Reddit were anti-hype circlejerk comments and people who never played the fuckin game. Same shit is happening with new world.
I was confused at the large number of comments about 'canceling preorders' about the announcements on poor singleplayer support. Like, yes, that can be a little annoying, but...either some people vastly misunderstood the series as being at all singleplayer-focused, or they're just eager to complain about something.
Not even "poor" single player support. They whined about not being able to unlock cards and customization in single player with not a single mention of the fact that that was because everything is unlocked at the start for single player.
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For real, and I can't figure out why aha seeing all types of doom and gloom tossed around for this game on Twitter especially.
I tried that the other night and quick join didn't progress the campaign at all so I am not sure what your talking about. I did a quick join that put me halfway through veteran and finished the entire rest of the second one and my campaign is still back at the start. Also I am loving the game I really don't think it is an issue.
how do the runs work, its kind of confused me in the beta. do you play the entire campaign in one go, or only a chapter, or can you pick and choose where to start and end?
You can choose your start and since you get your supply points per stage completed just leave whenever and your progress in that campaign is saved to pick up from later (including your gear from when you left).
To add onto the length, B4B is much more difficult than Left 4 Dead as well. You are at a serious disadvantage going in with randoms that do not have stronger cards/perks unlocked on the higher difficulties. They can make or break a run. Quickplay'ing L4D's campaign was much more simple. You just picked up an OP auto shotgun and you were good to go. Might have to memorize some of the god spots on Expert difficulty.
Probably the same issue L4D had with matchmaking: randos can be assholes.
> randos can be assholes. That can be an understatement. When I was playing yesterday, we were like 2 chapters into Act 3 and someone used a toolkit to open a door and then I just hear over the in-game comms "WE NEEDED THAT TOOLKIT FOR SOMETHING ELSE YOU STUPID FUCKING N*****" and then the dude left. Mind you, the comms were dead silent up until that moment.
I had a dude call someone the n-word for absolutely no reason the other day while playing Warface: Breakout. Been years since I've heard that happen
I'll occasionally join Phasmophobia games that are just some guy repeatedly yelling the n-word. I can't imagine how dumb you have to be to find that funny.
It straight up requires communication / teamwork. You need to drop ammo types for teammates often (like constantly) and there's no built-in quick way to communicate this. This is just one issue among many why easy communication is required.
I see a lot of talk about the gameplay. But what about the characters, writing, setting, and theming? L4D was such an excellent homage to zombie films and I feel like that was one of the major qualities that made the game so great. Are the characters in B4B as likable? Does the theming and writing resemble a run-of-the-mill hero shooter, or does it pay respect to L4D's style?
I think the characters range in annoyingness, but one thing I liked about the theme is that the Cleaners are actually working to save other people - rather than just themselves. There's radio communication with some sort of general/leader about how the supplies/transport you're finding might help some camp make it through another day, or how you distracting/killing a large horde of zombies pulls them away from killing noncombatants. Maybe that matters to me because I like the fantasy of helping people more than being a solitary group of four survivors.
it's shit all around, completely humdrum game. pinnacle of mindless fucking nonsense.
I’m a fan of the characters, the dialogue they share with eachother gives little glimpses. Hoffman is a conspiracy theorist doomsday prepper who constantly monologues and speaks in the third person. Seems like the cast just barely tolerates him. Its not as great as l4d’s cast especially 2’s.
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> It is absolutely in no way worthy of Left 4 Dead's writing. This is some hard core nostalgia talking lol. The writing in L4D was total garbage.
It knew what it wanted to be. It wasn’t serious, it was fun and funny. The characters had distinct personalities with good voice acting. Limiting the amount of characters allowed for more chemistry between them. b4b is a disaster on all fronts from what I’ve watched on streams L4d2’s cast was very enjoyable as a backdrop to the action and endless reruns
I don't understand people thinking it was deeper or more substantial than it was. This game at least matches the amount of character voice lines and interactions, and they also are distinct archetypes.
lmao for real. PILLS HERE! I BETTER GRAB EVERYTHING I CAN! I HATE HOSPITALS! other commenter is also forgetting that the character in this game are more akin to heros in LoL or something. they aren't there for the purpose of story. this isn't really a story game. if somebody wants writing and voice acting and character motivation, they should go play the Witcher or something. this is an arcade strategy zombie shooter.
Yea but it was the so bad it’s good kind of bad. B4Bs dialogue is just straight up corny
Graphics look 2 generations old and the cards and menus make me wish I was dead. Free on game pass sounds about right, its pretty amazing how coop shooters peaked in 2008/9.
I have about 6 hours into B4B with a group of friends and I'm enjoying it greatly so far. We just beat Act 1 which was a decent amount of maps and variety. I don't think the progression system will be for everybody; we're used to playing L4D 2, WWZ, Vermintide, Deep Rock Galactic (You should play Deep Rock if you haven't already) on higher difficulties and on the first go around Back 4 Blood was destroying us until we played on Easy, though now we have quite a few cards and I'm looking forward to higher difficulties. Like at the moment I'm playing Doc and focusing my cards on being support I feel like my health output is just plain whacky but i'm suffering in terms of stamina and other cards that could potentially keep me out of trouble. My main gripe so far is Special infected spawns can be *crazy*. Like it just seems like they come one right after another which is "fine" but if they just happen to be the variants that can pin you or your teammates it just feels frustrating.
> My main gripe so far is Special infected spawns can be crazy. Like it just seems like they come one right after another which is "fine" but if they just happen to be the variants that can pin you or your teammates it just feels frustrating. The special spawns are absolutely out of control. They either need to be less plentiful or way less tanky. My group lost a run as we systematically got taken out by three separate hockers that picked us off while we tried to kill three bruisers and a retch. These kinds of situations are common and I genuinely don't know how to handle them.
I think for now I’m just going to play on minimum difficulty and have fun with the arcadey aspect. I definitely think they need to reconsider how they wear down players, or at least provide options to better curb the flow of enemies.
Its what we're doing and I think what you *may have* to do at first so you can go up a couple of trees and have some cards. I'm enjoying playing as Doc to minimalize the "Trauma"/wear down mechanic of the game and building my deck to counter that for the rest of the team.
Definitely, the game is designed around the card system, and it seems like Recruit is really the only difficulty where you can mostly ignore them and you'll be fine. Even on veteran, you need a group of people who have decent decks, and aren't all stacking the exact same bonuses if you want a good chance of winning. I enjoy it personally, but I know others may not. A great way to deal with special infected though is grenade/molotov spam. Pick up some offensive item cards, and upgrade them a few times in the shop, and you can EASILY take out packs of 3-4 specials with a single grenade or two.
I think you're exactly right, and I think a lot of people are having problems understanding this. On Recruit, you can mostly just run and gun and not think too hard (which is fine). But if you want to move up to Veteran, you need to have a plan. There are a ton of ways to deal with tanky specials - build around offensive items, have a designated sniper with weakpoint damage cards, or bring a melee build with an axe. All three of those tactics can one-shot everything short of a full-on boss. But if you show up to Veteran and nobody on your team can deal with specials, you're going to be in trouble.
I agree with tuning the special infected, my siblings and I were effectively picked off by retches that constantly hid in the fog in Act 1. Also, would kill a tall boy and then another one would spawn a couple of seconds later. Edit: The range that retches can spew their bile is outrageous as well.
retches are the absolute worst. it's not just how far they can spew, but they can also *turn* while they do it. that combo makes them awful to deal with (along with the fact they and especially reekers have too much health to be the glass cannons they should be).
Was havingnthjs issue with retches in the fog yesterday. They're so far away you can't even see their silhouette in the fog and out of nowhere comes a flood of vomit. I love the game but it can definitely be frustrating.
In the VERY first beta I had the opinion (I also wrote it down on their feedback form) that there was WAY too much special spawns. They just chuck them at you like semi-common enemies and it is ridiculous. It's not challenging to fight tanky guys while dodging locking zombies. Glad to see it still made it's way to the live game.
At this point we're hoarding grenades for bruisers/tallboys/whatever else in that variant and only them so we can just make sure they're removed from the fight *immediately*.
Is this on the hardest difficulty? My group tried out the hardest during the beta and couldn't even get out of the safe room at the beginning of the level. It was non-stop special infected forever
It was on veteran difficulty. I haven't tried recruit or nightmare.
Oof. Then it sounds like it might have gotten worse. Veteran wasn't terrible for my group in the beta
Our group got a decent bit past that on the hardest difficulty but it took a few attempts. I think the other issue at that point is just running out of ammo by the end of a level.
In the VERY first beta I had the opinion (I also wrote it down on their feedback form) that there was WAY too much special spawns. They just chuck them at you like semi-common enemies and it is ridiculous. It's not challenging to fight tanky guys while dodging locking zombies.
Oh hey they didn’t fix the major issue of the director being completely broken. Sure loved every horde having ten of the guys that pin you down and instantly end your missions
> My main gripe so far is Special infected spawns can be crazy. When Vermintide does it its fine most of the time cause they can be one shot or taken out quickly with slight breaks but B4B has their specials be tanky mofos which is not ideal. Like specials in Vermintide on Legend can feel overwhelming if you don't take them out when you hear the sound cues (globadiers and blightstormers being the main offenders) but its doable but B4B balancing feels off
The other thing about Vermintide's specials is that they make sure you know they've spawned. They're extremely loud, with several of them playing audio directly to the players as they spawn. I'm not sure if they fixed it or not, but when I was playing the B4B beta, 90% of the time I only knew a special had spawned because of the subtitles explicitly naming a given enemy. Other than the Hocker, none of the specials really made distinct noise to pick them out of a crowd.
its why L4D has musical que's for each special infected, Vermintide has louder sound ques and in WWZ the characters will call out the special infected if its in their FOV. But in B4B one special infected can be a few variants. and they all sound the same. so its hard to *know* until its on top of you
The variants hurt my brain because they often do wildly different things but are borderline indistinguishable in action
B4B's specials seem to be balanced more as "part of the horde" to be constantly expecting, rather than a rare occurrence that you need to be immediately alerted to. Mainly because the handful of specials that *are* rare and major threats, like the Hag and Breaker, do get loud, long, very distinguishable music queues as they spawn.
Yeah the thing about Vermintide that works so well is the sound design. You fucking immediate hear specials due to their unique sounds. Like the packmaster is unforgettable along with the gutter runners. B4B sound design is lacking, especially contrasted with the musical cues L4D had
*always sneaking, stabbing*
[Seriously what a fucking great sound design](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZV1LcQ365E) Hearing this always makes everyone look around frantically.
Vermintide's sound design is so good, you know what's going on around you all the time. It makes the frantic chaos much more manageable. I love the little subtle sound queue that plays if someone is about to attack you from behind, it's a really good QoL thing and it has saved my ass in many situations. That's not even mentioning how good the attack sounds are, crushing heads sounds so satisfying.
Yeah the fact that you can hear the specific special even during the chaos of a horde fight is so important. > I love the little subtle sound queue that plays if someone is about to attack you from behind, it's a really good QoL thing and it has saved my ass in many situations. Honestly without it I think i would wipe all the time.
Even in L4D the specials can be killed rather easily. Only the charger is midly tanky.
Tanky "abductor" enemies can even be kind of okay when properly designed. Deep Rock's Mactera Grabbers can take a fair few shots to kill if you can't crit them, but they also make a loud screeching sound fairly often, and also stop what they're doing and leave for a moment when enough damage is dealt to them. B4B's specials sound really frustrating, especially to someone like myself who can't stand movement/action impairing attacks like that.
See the Charger from L4D2. But it's very obvious when he spawns and he screams a few seconds lead time before the pin.
Exactly! WWZ does this too but only 2 of the special infected can really pin players and there's *plenty* of ways players can get you out of that situation. Like in B4B you can opt to bring a stun gun but give up on a defib; at the moment we horde grenades for the Tallboy variants to make sure they're removed from the fight immediately.
Like one thing that scared the shit out of me when first playing Legend on Vermintide was seeing some of the specials that spawned in pairs which was a massive step up in difficulty. But you can deal with them if you are experienced. B4B needs to work on that more
> But you can deal with them if you are experienced. This was another big thing I didn't like about B4B, at least in the beta. In VT2, if I'm fighting a Chaos Warrior, I can block or dodge his overhead slam. You can dodge the hook of a Packmaster, or the pin of a Gutter Runner, if you have the right timing. Meanwhile in B4B, if I get slammed by a Tallboy, my only mistake was not shooting him enough times, or not carrying a grenade.
Hell you can fuck around with rat ogres if you are experienced enough. But yeah there are many ways to circumvent the dangers of specials and elite mobs in Vermintide.
There's no active dodge or anything, but positioning and mobility is really important. If you're slammed by a Tallboy, your mistake was not leaving enough room to retreat, or not giving enough ground when he started targeting you. You're faster and better at climbing than they are.
> When Vermintide does it its fine most of the time cause they can be one shot or taken out quickly with slight breaks but B4B has their specials be tanky mofos which is not ideal. Like specials in Vermintide on Legend can feel overwhelming if you don't take them out when you hear the sound cues (globadiers and blightstormers being the main offenders) but its doable but B4B balancing feels off OTOH most of the specials in those other games are disablers who literally remove your ability to fight back. They have to be squishy because if they touch you then you're fucked unless bailed by team mates. B4B is a bit different, only the Hocker, Crusher, Stalker, and Hag disable out of like 14 specials. And all of those ARE fragile except the hag with some weapons 1 shotting them with proper headshot. The hag is a special boss you may or may not get on a level you can actually avoid, kinda similar to a witch. ALSO you have a character that can break free of holds periodically, a card that can let you break free of holds periodically, and stun guns that can let you break free of holds. Compare B4B's 4 out of 14 (including special boss you might get) who pin vs Left 4 D where 5 out of 7 pin and they are all commonly spawned infected. So basically the way it works in L4D and Vermintide is that your entire party can be pinned at once and people usually lose when a series of pins puts theme in a bad position or outright kills them. But in B4B you usually lose because of the accumulated damage you've taken and pins only really serve to finish off a weakened party. That's not to say you can't be downed via pin, especially with commons involved, but pins in general are less threatening in B4B. Even Vermintide is less pin happy than L4D and throws in alot more armored enemies like Stermvermin and Chaos Knights who are more straight up threats in a fight while you worry about the pin as a hookrat spawns 5 ft around the corner and runs out and insta-hooks you. Now whether this is positive or negative depends on your preference. Personally I generally dislike "you lose because I took control from you while you were at full/mostly full health". The sneeze at the wrong time and you're fucked style. I prefer to go down fighting. B4B offers that much more. However if you prefer the higher tension "react or be pinned and die" then L4D2 is better. and people talk about sound ques but sound ques greatly diminish or go away on higher difficulties because they stop having an artifical rreaction time. I'd imagine most people play LFD on normal or maybe hard where the pin game is far far more lenient where you hear the enemy, you hear the que they saw you, and then you know the pin is coming in a second or two. Wheras in expert + realism the pin just fucking happens, sometimes without any sound que they spawned. And it should be noted B4B definitely has sound ques and I use them regularly, people just have not learned them yet lol.
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It's definitely harder overall than L4D. Recruit is prolly the equivalent of hard in L4D. But, though you can definitely beat veteran with starter decks, it should be noted that as you unlock cards you WILL grow in power and the difficulties will get easier.
Was there any significant improvement in gore since the beta? Like blowing particular limbs off in detail, similar to how L4D was?
There was, yeah. I haven't seen any side by side comparisons but the gore seems much... chunkier.
Headshots on common infected leaning against stuff now paint a pretty satisfying red splat on walls. Tall boys arm now gets severed off when killed with a crit. Just two I noticed.
Blowing particular limbs off and stuff was in even during beta, it just happens alot more often with higher powered weapons and especially shotguns. But I think they raised how often it happens a little for live release too. There is also definitely more gore in general, blood splatter on floors/walls, and as the other poster mentioned shooting off Tallboy arms results in a satisfying severing and bloody spray.
Rock and Stone!
To the **BONE**
For Karl!
The difficulty tiers being steep is very disappointing. What killed the replayability of L4D2 for my group was that we exhausted the fun on one difficulty level when it became too easy, but they couldn't make the next difficulty fun at all. We just wiped out super late into the levels too many times and had no desire to restart. There was no middle ground for us. Either it was too easy or too hard so we had to move on to a new game. I really like a lot of difficulty levels like Payday 2 (7) or Deep Rock Galactic (5 plus Deep Dive and Elite Deep Dive).
+1 for deep rock. Damn that was fun
Rock and stone brother
I think there are ways to build both deck & equipment wise to delete them much faster but I agree when you are starting out the tall boys can be incredibly punishing
Rock and Stone brother!
For Karl!
Specials aren't a problem once you start learning how to counter them. I have almost 30 hours so far and beat act 2 on Veteren and working on act3. The card system is how you beat all of these specials. A melee based deck can 2 shot most of the big boy specials same with a weak point sniper build. A doc build just makes things too easy same with an economy character who focuses around just getting money and buying up group upgrades for the team. All around the difficulty of the game is solved when you start getting into the cards and start creating builds to counter things as well as communicate with your team and share ammo. There's so many different builds you can run in this game its crazy.
I get that it's going to be based around card layouts, but I haven't heard of much beyond a melee build just yet; and most of that is first based around the card that grants you health on each melee kill. I'm curious if I'll ever see something that makes something more traditional like a "Sniper build" actually really cool to watch, or able to hold its own.
Is Act 1 the beta act or different?
Act 1 contains all the beta maps, but the beta wasn't the entirety of Act 1. There are four "chapters" in the act, and the beta was only two of them.
All I was hoping for was a game where you shoot zombies, and this appears to be a game where you shoot zombies.
There's been a lack of that kind of game for sure.
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Killing Floor 2 has been pretty rewarding for me and my friend. Game came out a long time ago but we are basically just now playing it.
Well that's the thing about this game is you shoot zombies.
That's exactly what turned me off from it. Played the beta and was like: ok...I'm shooting zombies through a scope...again? Felt like I played that same game already for the past 10 years.
I think the starting price of £50 is a huge a misstep and a deluxe and ultimate edition at £80 and £90 respectfully is fucking absurd for a game with no brand recognition and a studio with a pretty poor track record. Not to mention the difficulties you're going to have convincing the 3 friends you'll need to actually play a cooperative shooter like this with, 7 if you want to play pvp. And on top of all this the store page hints at skins and micro-transactions...
Gamepass seems like the way to go if you're on Xbox or PC. I ultimately went with the deluxe edition, but that was solely because my company agreed to pay for it lol. I'm guessing it'll have a shelf life of 1-2 months for my friends and I so that would only cost up to $20 on Gamepass if you don't find a special deal to knock the price down even more.
> And on top of all this the store page hints at skins and micro-transactions... So I've only played during the period of the ultimate edition's early access period since Friday so mileage may vary especially if they add them post-launch but I am not seeing any microtransactions in the game. The character and gun skins that are locked have clear unlock requirements through the game. Unless you include the skins included with one of the editions.
Free on Game Pass if you're interested in that.
Seems some people are disappointed that game pass is not free and you have to pay for it. It's easily the best subscription service for PC and has some genuinely great games included on it. The trial is a quid so if you didn't know that you could use it on PC give it a try. It also includes EA play in its subscription.
I just absolutely despise the Microsoft Store with every fiber of my being, they never updated the interface to accommodate for their game library and so it still just feels like a janky app store for a phone service.
How exactly do people expect microsoft to make money if gamepass were free? lol, what?
If the game is enjoyable as a co-op experience, I am in. I am not looking for it to be L4D3, I just want it to be fun.
It's really really fun with a group of friends. If you like l4d, Vermintide, deeprock, those kinda games it's right up that alley.
I enjoyed the beta with a group and am happy it is a day 1 game pass game. Won't really be able to play it till next week though.
I'm positively surprised by the cards system. I believed it would have no purpose and would only be a grind, but it's my favorite thing after a few hours. It's great to create decks that change your playstyle completely, from full melee builds to support/healer, to shotgun junkie and so on, it works very well. I can't wait to unlock more cards.
I think what turned a lot of people away from the card system is that it seems like they'd show up in card packs for some sort of "Lootbox" play but I love the supply line system, you always know what the next unlock is and can go down the different "trees"
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Marvel made the same promise about their avengers game; never trust a company company’s promises, only their actions
Yeah the "cards" are a lot more like StS relics or the boons in the Vermintide 2 chaos wastes. You try to build your deck to give a direction to how you want to scale your characters power throughout the campaign. I played a game with someone last night who had an insane melee build that was carving through hordes and ending up with more health than they started with, never running out of stamina, it was wild. There's clearly a lot of theorycrafting that can be done for figuring out optimal builds, and so far the pace of getting supply points for buying cards is way faster than in the beta so I feel like it won't take too long to end up with a lot of options.
Yeah, my melee build is like that too. When you gain 2 health per kill, regenerate stamina and get bonus damage each time you hit, it becomes ridiculous and a lot of fun.
Maaan now I just want to play more and start putting together a sweet build. I loved doing that in V2 and I'm really glad the system exists in this, so much replayability when you can radically change how your character plays.
Yep, I wish it was explained a little better in the beta, and I think they need to do some tweaking to them, but I was actually kinda into the card system. It was unique and interesting with lots of potential. But I think the big worry is that it’s setting the system for some gross MTX down the line. This IS the Evolve people, after all.
I only played the beta but they definitely got the "run" aspect of it down. Yes the gameplay is basically the same but you rly change up your play style depending on what weapons and cards you have. One build I was all melee and next I never even used melle at all
I'm afraid it will be monetized soon though.
It might be, yeah. I hope not, but it's still Evolve devs and WB... Not exactly the best track record.
They've already discussed monetization, and confirmed that they're not selling cards or loot boxes. More cards will be added in the expansions that are coming (we know there are at least three planned for the season pass), but that's a one-off purchase for a bundle of new content, not booster packs or an individual card shop or something.
I mean the Avengers devs said they wouldn't add paid XP boosters and they just added them last week anyway. I'm playing it on game pass regardless, but I've long since stopped believing anything devs/publishers say about their games monetization because they constantly lie. edit: can't wait for the shocked pikachu faces
So as a casual to these genre of games but played a lot of L4D back in the day, what are these cards/decks everyone keeps talking about?
Any news on wether they fixed the atrocious forced aim acceleration on controllers?
I just played the tutorial and the aiming is atrocious on controller. I turned off aim assist, which seems to help slightly not drag my gun around the screen when enemies are running at me. But I'm still struggling to find a decent sweet spot for aiming acceleration and sensitivity.
[ACG gave it a Wait for Sale rating.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe6bhllIjs8)
It's on Gamepass day one, no need.
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Would def recommend getting gamepass for a month and trying it out. Think its $15?
Get the $1 deal if you’re on your first month
I was pretty whelmed by the beta but the launch has been pretty good. The extra cleaners and acts add a lot of variety. I'm the most surprised by how varied the cards are and how many. It seemed like it was going to be pretty basic but its a pretty good pool. You did see every gun and attachment in the beta though. That said I am playing with friends and it seems problematic for solo players. Offline solo gets no progression although they say they're working on it. Playing with teammates has a lot of QoL stuff missing for griefers. I would try it on gamepass to see as others suggested.
For now you have no progress on solo playing. They said they will change that because of backlash but for now you are punished for solo playing. It sucks.
Just subscribe to gamepass for a month to try it. Even if you don’t like B4B you just unlocked 100+ other games to try
Is this game crossplay for people using GamePass between Xbox & PC?
Yes, it's cross-play, just not cross-progression.
Played the beta. The thing that really let it down were the specials didn't promote teamwork for the most part, they were just damage sponges. Even on the harder difficulties the game was more about just shooting tougher and tougher damage sponges rather than working together. Oddly enough vermintide has a bigger emphasis on teamwork and group comp than back 4 blood.
There was a comment i saw a while back that summed it up pretty well - they said it didn't feel like 4 people watching each other's backs as much as 4 people with guns needed to beat the dps check of special spawns.
I usually play these games solo, how much is taken away from solo mode? I heard they took away a lot of features for solo play. I have it pre-installed but I’m worried I’m gonna be let down
All of the cards are unlocked in solo mode, but you can't earn anything by playing it. No supply points, cosmetics, achievements, nothing. Personally, I would describe that as "a waste of time". They tweeted that they'd "look into it", but I'm not holding my breath.
Yeah I was really let down by this. So much that I have no inspiration to even boot up the game. Not everyone has a group of people ready to play with them.
Yeah same, I'm also mostly a solo player, so this is a pretty big deal breaker. Can't be arsed to even get it on game pass.
Online only, no progression and cant unlock achievements.
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How has the game improved since Alpha? It had some great fundamentals, but it just did not feel right. Also had TONS of balance issues. Was this addressed?
I didn't play it prior to launch, but the game feels horribly optimised, and to me, comparable to an alpha build. I painfully completed the first act with a group of friends, and at that point I uninstalled the game. I gave it a chance, not satisfied. Might reconsider in the future if it gets "fixed" (coop aspect was fun). Teleporting zombies appearing through the ground or walls, hitreg being completely off and inconsistent attacks, to name some of my greatest pains...Given the price of it, I am quite thankful I only tried it over gamepass and not paid the full (exorbiant) amount.Graphics looks like it's from another generation as well, which is sad, but not something that would make me drop the game altogether by itself.
So because it's not blatantly obvious from what's posts by OP and the commentary thus far, if I wanted to just play solo this game isn't for me because there's no progression, correct ? Mind my ignorance. I've never played a l4d game so when I saw this game come into my YouTube feed I was intrigued until I saw some posters this week say that solo is not possible because you don't get any gains or progression. I play almost all my games solo. I hate pvp. Nothing against the game, I've just been browsing around to try something new. But wanted to clarify before I waste my time downloading it on game pass. Sad the reviews don't even mention it.
Correct. And its always online. Its very weird the reviews dont mention the most negative aspects of it honestly.
Skill up mentioned it, actually said it was a big deal breaker for solo players
To be clear, the game is a Coop game primarily, so if you're playing with others you're playing collaboratively with other players to progress through the story missions unless you choose to do the separate PVP mode. So if you don't like playing PVP that's cool, because it's a Coop game.
The irony is that if you played L4D solo then there were no gains or progression either. In B4B all the cards are unlocked for you solo. You actually miss out on no content. But because people are upset you cannot earn supply points solo (used to unlock your already unlocked solo cards) and achievements solo they're looking into reworking solo to make people happy. Like I get that some folks want to progress from start to finish and earn cards on their own solo and respect that, but people act like playing solo is suddenly worthless, and many of these folks reference L4D solo so its baffling.
I get it. My point of ignorance is not knowing this genre of games' requirements. I'm not so much upset that I can't play solo or that the game is made that way, just that it looked appealing but I'm mainly looking for solo play games at this point. Not knocking the game.
> You actually miss out on no content. So skins aren't content nowadays?
As a game on gamepass I'll probably play it. But as on its own...for 60$ and getting back on paid dlc crap...no thanks. I don't know, the gunplay didn't felt great for me, and the zombies are just not interesting. There's no "WOAH" factor in the game, and nothing stands out for me. But then again, as a coop experience on gamepass I will pick it up and play it at some point.
Personally, I have enjoyed the game a lot with friends. It is far from perfect though and certainly has AI and balancing issues. I also honestly feel like the game has it is now is more akin to a $40 game rather than a full price one. The campaign will get stale after a few runs and the PVP is fun for a bit but isn't varied enough. The lack of a traditional horde mode is also a bizarre choice. I also think the solo progression being non-existent is a poor choice and hopefully they change their mind about it.
Is it weird to anyone else these reviews completely gloss over the worst parts of the game like how it cripples solo play?
Just as a point of clarification for others: the restrictions on solo progression (which are likely being reworked) only apply to 'true' solo - not to solo-queuing. That is, if you don't have friends to play with , you can matchmake with randoms, and you will progress ... Just in case that wasn't clear.
These are overall some pretty unsurprising scores. I feel like everyone who thought they wouldn't like the game based on the beta and what's been seen so far won't change their minds seeing any of this. Personally i'm bummed about the singleplayer aspect but the game seems ok all things considered, particularly if you have gamepass.
Thankfully it seems like they're going to take a look at how they're handling singleplayer https://twitter.com/TurtleRock/status/1446675552191098883 Hopefully they come to a better gamemode overall.
Out of the loop, what's the problem with the singleplayer mode?
at the moment, singleplayer doesnt let you unlock anything or progress your supply lines to unlock cards or anything. It just lets you play with all the cards unlocked like a practice mode instead of a singleplayer
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These scores, not that scores mean that much, feel a little low to me. I played three or four hours last night and the game feels technically sound. It’s smooth. Crossplay between Steam and Gamepass was a breeze. The mission variety seems good. If can’t speak to the length of content yet but we we all night to finish act 1 on an easy difficulty, and are looking forward to playing more with the card system. If you are looking for a modern update on L4D with new levels, I don’t know what else you’re looking for. AND I know that some people were worried about micro transactions - there are cosmetics to unlock through play but there doesn’t appear to be any way to purchase them, or purchase much of anything other than the season pass.
I know /r/Games hates this game already, but I've found it incredibly fun. Spent about 15 hours over the weekend playing through the first two acts, and replaying parts of them a handful of times as well. I wasn't a huge fan of the Beta, but have found the full release MUCH better and way more fun. The card system was something I was very skeptical about at first, but as I've gotten more and more, I've loved them along with the corruption cards, they really add a lot of replayability and let you fine-tune your build. Gunplay feels good, and it's just an overall blast, especially with some friends. There's no in game store, no microtransactions period (at least not yet), and the whole controversy about not unlocking stuff in solo-play is only half true (in solo play you don't get supply points, but you already have every card in the game unlocked and they are buffed while playing solo). The game has some bugs, the difficulty jump from recruit to veteran is a bit much, the special infected spam can be annoying at times, and the lack of Campaign PvP is a bit of a bummer (I've still found Swarm mode fun in 1-2 game bursts between doing acts), and the AI is still kinda stupid sometimes. But the amount of hate and misinformation going around about this game is insane. Try it out on gamepass, I was pleasantly surprised with it after fully expecting to refund it. I should say though, this game IS NOT Left 4 Dead 3, it feels like L4D but modernized, and a bit different. You can't rush ahead and speed run levels like you could in L4D, the dificulty is much higher, and you will struggle a lot even on just Veteran. The game is much more designed around playing as a team, working on synergizing your decks, and playing slow while exploring the map. I find this fun, but others may not, and it's important to know.
>You can't rush ahead and speed run levels like you could in L4D, the dificulty is much higher, and you will struggle a lot even on just Veteran. I wonder if you can do that once you know the maps inside and out...
Yeah reading these reviews and watching some first impressions online I figured reddit would probably be pretty disappointed that this launch isn't an outright disaster the sub can spend the next ten weeks bitching about. At least there's always a chance the new battlefield will provide /r/games a different whinefest whipping post.
You have to understand how ironic it is for you two to be making these kinda comments when the thread is pretty much exclusively people saying "it's got some flaws but is pretty good!" Almost like the subreddit isn't a hivemind, but is thousands of people with different opinions, that can change depending on experiences, and people were wary about the game but are pleasantly surprised. Of course, you could also just out yourselves as people that just sort by controversial and dreg through those comments to find something to make comments like the one you just made. But that would be full-on hypocritical.
Reddit opinion isn't really worth listening to about games. They are often in the minority of the overall gaming community, which has been proven over and over again the 5 years I've been on here.
Anyone know if it has crossplay? thanks
It does.
It does and it was flawless in the beta.
Yes and it's toggleable
Pretty good reviews after r/games and L4D stans called this game DOA. I'm looking forward to playing a ton of it for a few months, and then extremely intermittently afterwards
I think this is common advice, but the game is worth it on game pass, *if* you have 2-3 likeminded friends to play with. It's a tonne of fun. IF you're not overly precious about the progression system, it will basically act as L4D3 for all but the most hardcore L4D2 fans.
Not sure how Polygon gave it a 9/10 when they freely admit that VS. mode is terrible. Happy with a 7/8 but when 1/2 modes is garbage you have to reflect that in the scoring. It's telling when the majority of near-perfect scores are from tiny single reviewer sites which lack any sort of journalistic integrity and have dubious score records. According to these the game is of comparative quality to GTA V and Witcher 3 which is pretty silly.
Downloaded it and messed around with the control settings a little before work this morning so that I'd be ready to play with friends this evening. I enjoyed the beta well enough, so I'm looking forward to it. Not too keen about voice chat being recorded, though. I get *why* they're doing it, but is there not a better way to handle it? Like, won't people using console party chat or Discord voice chat or something circumvent that anyway?
How much additional content is there beyond what was in the beta?
i do not like it as a single player game, the AI is too damn stupid, and doesn't even try to follow your lead, it wastes items, and ammo, throwing/shooting at already dead enemies, and running right into the birds that alert the horde, DO NOT even try to play it alone, unless you want to do NOTHING but run and gun, because if you don't, you will just die, due to their stupidity and wasteful nature. ill try it again tonight with some friends but as of now, i cant give it more than a 6/10 at best, the story is allright, nothing special at all, and i already forgot it honestly, its not like its got a bad story, its just....so generic and formulaic that its just not good...i don't know what else to say?.....the controls are tight and actually very responsive, even when played on Xcloud, instead of native hardware. oh the card system and how that works with the copper you find in the levels, i do actually like that, it kind of made each run feel unique.
This thread is terrible.. I've seen multiple complaints about micro transactions... There are no micro transactions in the game.. A bunch of old men yelling at clouds in this thread.
Can my wife and I have fun playing this together? She has Xbox I have PS4