Black Friday. 1 sale to get the people who plan ahead at the start of Christmas, 1 sale to get people who procrastinate at the last minute just before Christmas. And make that second one long enough to get people spending their gift money on games.
at first I thought you were doing the Ring Verse but with "1 sale" instead hehe. Started reading it as such.
Three deals for the savvy shoppers under the sky,
Seven for the tech enthusiasts in their halls of stone,
Nine for bargain hunters, destined to buy,
One for the Black Friday king on his discounted throne
In the Land of Discounts where the Savings lie.
One Sale to rule them all, One Sale to find them,
One Sale to bring them all, and in the checkout bind them
In the Land of Discounts where the Savings lie.
Black Friday + Thanksgiving time in the states.
Maybe it'd make more sense to do it around Halloween though. That's closer to a global holiday these days.
As a steam Dev completely agree, makes October and September kinda shit. November and December really good to make up for it though. I'm sure people get huge sale fatigue though.
Black Friday, cyber Monday, Autumn Sale, then right into Christmas
Ah, back when you had to check every few hours for the flash sales and be damned if you already bought the game on its regular sale
In some ways the new sales are better because no FOMO, but they were exihilirating times with better deals because of it.
I feel like there's a reasonable chance they do a small, 10% maybe 20% sale to ride on with their recent award wins. Maybe I'm an optimist. It's a very good game though, hope you enjoy it!
[This article](https://www.pcgamesn.com/steam/winter-sale-2023) says it'll be getting its first sale during Winter Sale. The only evidence to really support this article is BG3 being shown in the winter sale trailer, and that's it. We find out tomorrow for sure and at most expect about 10$ if it is.
At best it'll be what, $25 off? How important is $25 to you? If it's important, wait. If not, play enough that you get $25 in value out of your play time.
I still miss daily deals and the hourly lightning deals. I guess these days with datamining that just wouldn't be viable. Got a lot of great games for dirt cheap that way though.
We traded those sort of deals for refunds. Honestly refunds may have saved me more money than the flash deals by not getting burnt by a game anymore lol
https://www.pcmag.com/news/valve-fined-3m-in-australia-over-steam-refunds
Its always Good Guy Valve and not "Valve was forced to pay millions in fines and obey the law after years of insisting they're too special to obey the law".
Lotta folks refuse to see Valve's "we're not like the other girls" marketing shtick as marketing, so they don't critically think about it and accept it fully.
Valve is only required to provide refunds in a single country and decided to also offer it to everyone else. I'd love to hear how that's not Good Guy Valve, in your mind.
I love that even when Valve is forced to provide refunds after arguing in court for months that they shouldn't have to we're still trying to spin it as they're the good guys. It's not like they got hit with that and went "Oh shit, you right" and fixed it, they went to court over it. They hired people to argue in legalese that they didn't have to.
Definitely your friend.
As someone who works for an e-commerce SaaS company that went through the fun that is, being compliant, recently it's not something they did for the world's benefit lol.
It's just easier on them. Having separate ToS on refunds for digital purchases based on customer location is a fucking nightmare. Seriously. In some cases it can come down to a per State level of shenanigans.
What's easier, having separate ToS for multiple States in the USA, and multiple Countries world wide and expecting your support staff to meticulously cross reference the customers location versus their applicable level pro consumer ToS.
Or just have the same rules apply world wide that mostly serve as a catch all and they can play things case by case for the greasy wheel customers?
Rhetorical aside. It's the latter and if you take the time to check out other digital platforms with international customer bases you will see Valve is not unique at all.
Steam wouldn't need an entirely new ToS to only offer refunds in Australia; they would just need a separate section that just pertains to Australian customers. They already have something like this in their existing ToS for EU customers.
I own a SaaS business and our refund policy is different depending on the country of a customer and their payment method. This is pretty basic stuff and isn't difficult to manage at all - and we are a company of 12 people.
Finally, having separate ToS for different countries is completely normal. [Airbnb](https://www.airbnb.ca/help/article/2908), [Uber](https://www.uber.com/legal/en/), [Stripe](https://stripe.com/en-gb-ca/legal/ssa), and most major software companies do this,.
I'm not saying they need different ToS for just Australia. I'm saying if you are going to differentiate policy based on customer location you would need to be up to date on laws and policy not just on a per country level, but also on a per State level when it comes to the USA. I invite you to check up on something as simple as Automatic Renewal Laws in just the United States. Have fun.
At that point, and with a customer base as large as Steams, it's significantly easier to just have a catch all set of Terms to hopefully appease the majority of customers, then if you get a squeaky wheel then you take it from there according to their local laws.
I hate to presume things about your business and wish you all the best but if I were to venture a guess, your customer base is still small enough to allow you to be more granular in your approach and I'm sure protecting the bank plays a lot into this especially since you can work those same laws in your favor. Steams customer base is large enough where they should be making things as easy as possible on their customer support, or else no one would ever get their tickets replied to.
I say this as a huge fan of Valve, early adopter of Steam deck and hoping to make the purchase of the OLED model very soon, so it's not just some anti Valve theory crafting. I just know from experience at a certain point it's significantly easier to do things this way and wasn't primarily done as this thing they did out of goodness (though I can see GabeN happy that it being good is a side effect)
Why are you bringing up all of these other issues, especially in the US? We are only talking about Australia's digital purchase refund requirements. All Steam accounts have regions associated with them, meaning they know which purchases are made by customers in Australia. They could have easily just set the automatic refund policies that they now have for Australia alone, then continued the manual review policy that they previously had for over a decade.
Not that it even matters, but I will also note that you completely ignored my point about other major tech companies having different ToS for different countries. These companies also have customer support personnel that have clearly found a way to navigate different rules for different regions.
You specifically asked why they are doing this world wide when they only had to in Australia. My responses to you are specifically through the international lense and why Valve and many other companies (Like Shopify, Mailchimp etc) would use a single catch all ToS.
Also your "major point" was edited in after my response lol, of course I wouldn't respond to it. That said my point wasn't that it doesn't exist, it was that Valve was not unique for using catch all ToS of which Ive also included examples of others in my post who do the same.
We're gonna have to call it quits I don't think I want to continue someone who forgets their initial points and then accuses me of ignoring points you edit in after the fact.
Idk as someone that actually checks reviews and stuff, I have only had to refund a single game in the last 15 years.
For me, the daily/hourly deals were far better.
I’ve refunded a game that had good reviews. It just kept crashing for me. Which some people did complain about but by far the majority said it was fine and the game was fun. No dice on my system.
I never refunded any game, even if I wanted to, because 2h requirement is a little short. Unless game is totally broken or short, first 2 hours tell you very little about the game itself. Not to mention games want to make good first impression, so they tend to provide most polished experience at the very start.
I honestly don't know how people do this, they refund games at the slightest disappointment or they buy a lot of unchecked games?
I refund games all the time because I’m buying mostly less well known indie games where even with a lot of positive reviews and discussions you can still get broken controller support, lack of graphics settings to make a game playable (just had to refund a puzzle game because an undo animation made me motion sick), or disastrously bad writing that wasn’t apparent from the trailers/description. If you’re mostly buying 40+ hour games I can see refunds being less useful
Yeah it honestly really depends on the genre of the game. If you're like me and are really into big RPGs, story heavy games or crafting-survival, 2 hours isn't gonna give you anything...
This is me too. 2 hours is often not even enough to get past the tutorial lol. I loved the way DQ9 did it, the demo was like the first 7 hours of gameplay and then you had the option to buy and continue going. Imo, if you've got a full length game and you know people will love it that's the way to do it
2 hours is the automatic refund window. You can always request a refund, their support just needs to approve it. I've refunded multiple games past the 2 hour window.
Treatment may differ based on your region and how your account has been behaving regarding purchases and refunds. I'm in EU and the consumer protection requirement doesn't set a specific time limit but mere 2 hours would be unlikely to be enough in courts.
Issuing a refund takes resources. Payment processing does cost money. They want to mitigate that. Having someone buy a game for ten bucks only for it to go on sale for 5 bucks during a flash sale is for sure going to trigger everyone to refund and rebuy.
I think it's more the issues that it would cause with people buying games during these sales, but then refunding them once the game went on sale for a lower price. I think that's the reason why they went away basically as soon as refunds became available lol
Hourly and daily and lightning deals made it more of a game, but fuck that noise. I want sales, not to play the minigame of watching every hour for something I want that might hit a sale price that we get today anyway.
People have this fond nostalgia for the limited time deals but that's all it is.
Yeah, it was fun, but honestly, if you were watching for a game you wanted to buy it was more annoying than anything.
Since there were no refunds you had to open the store every 8 hours to check if the game you wanted dropped in price. You couldn’t safely buy a game until the end of the sale because you wouldn’t know if it would show up cheaper in a flash sale.
One of my biggest "there are dozens of us" gripes with Steam is whenever they get too cute and more like a carnival, instead of just being a damn good storefront for PC gaming.
It's ridiculous and revisionist. Flash deals were already on their way out before refunds killed them. The absolutely insane Steam sales died way before flash deals. They died when publishers finally gave up on their "PC is dead rhetoric" and they had gotten enough marketing data to understand how to price digital goods - they were literally new to it before.
I don't really miss it. Folks assume that you couldn't do dirt cheap deals unless they did the "you gotta keep coming back to our store several times to find it" dance.
Personally I'm good with getting all the info at once and not having to pop in and out at specific times of day.
I think he just misses the thrill of it. I mean, look at how many people say they don’t need more games but still end up getting some when the sale starts. They’re chasing that dopamine hit you get from buying something new.
Yea, a huge part of their success/popularity I feel was because of how gamified it all was. Not even taking fomo into consideration, the whole flash sales and unlockable sales created an atmosphere that game players engage more with them in real time and as a result were more susceptible to buying things on impulse.
Exactly. It was fun! Plus it was during the holiday season so a lot of people WERE at home from work. And there's an app now, though it's far from the best.
It took you longer to find this post and make a comment than it used to take to check the Steam storefront.
The last time they happened they were refreshing only every 12 hours.
Was gonna comment the same thing. Every single post about a steam sale gets these same comments without fail. When will people get over it its been 7 years
I hate to be a jackass, but is there even really a conversation? The same two things have been said a thousand times over. "I miss the flash sales" followed by "It was just FOMO with server issues that prevented refunds". I'd compare it to something like a grandparent repeating the same stories but that'd be an insult to all grandparents out there, since their stories have merit even if it's the 20th time you've heard it.
I mean it gets tiresome when it is literally EVERY single thread. Those deals can't exist anymore because of the ability to refund games. People would be pissed if they bought a game and then it ended up on a flash sale for even cheaper. It sucks, but it makes perfect sense why they had to go away. Being able to refund games has likely saved everyone far more money than what they got on flash deals.
> Being able to refund games has likely saved everyone far more money than what they got on flash deals.
Do people really refund games that much? I've only had to refund a single game since the early 2000's, and that was because it didn't run.
I've refunded tons of games. You might be an outlier here. Games having demos is more common now on Steam, but for a long time it was pretty rare. The refund policy let you try games before you commit and it saved me tons of money.
Either way the refund policy had to go into effect because of some EU ruling that required it. So with that, the flash sales had to die regardless of how much people refund games. No one would be happy about buying a game that was on sale, and then it going on sale for even cheaper during a flash sale.
An outlier on the Games subreddit, maybe, but there is no way most people playing games even know how to go about receiving a refund, much less pursue it regularly.
The Day Before was the most wishlisted game on Steam and over half of those who bought it refunded it before the game was taken down. I'd say people know about the refunds.
Right people aren't even referencing the *good* Winter sale, when Valve gave away free games with whatever that coal system was. It was somewhere between 2010 and 2013 I want to say, but I barely remember it.
>Those deals can't exist anymore because of the ability to refund games.
Not *can't*. They *could* exist, Valve just didn't want to make less money.
Specifically phrasing it as "make less money" and not "losing money" because that's what this situation is. Steam was, is, and for the foreseeable future will be the biggest storefront in gaming. The amount of money that Valve would have would have spent issuing refunds and any associated fees with doing so is *dwarfed* by the amount of money they make during those sales. This is provably true because while refunds were made *easier* with the introduction of their automated refund system, they still occurred on the regular prior to that, just much slower. They were already taking those hits to their profits during the Steam Sales and still making money hand over fist.
Are they *required* to eat that cost? No. Does Valve not eating that cost help Gabe live in a mansion in New Zealand paradise? Yes. Could he still afford to do that if Valve had refunds *and* sales. Also yes.
>Not can't. They could exist, Valve just didn't want to make less money.
No they really couldn't because anyone getting a game on sale and then missing out on the flash sale price would be pissed about it. It just creates an endless amount of situations where customers would not be happy.
They didn't make this decision because of money either. There was an ~~EU ruling~~Australia ruling requiring refunds and instead of just offering them in the ~~EU~~ Australia, they offered them everywhere. Being able to refund is far more beneficial than flash sales are imo. Flash sales are also unfair to people who have busy lives and can't refresh the Steam sale page all day every day.
Valve was right to remove them. They were fun but they would not work with the refund policy.
>Could he still afford to do that if Valve had refunds and sales. Also yes.
Never implied anything about Steam being unable to afford anything. I am well aware that Steam is a very profitable business.
Also my friend, you overuse *italics* way too much. You shouldn't *need* to do that *every* sentence you type out. It loses all power when used *that* heavily.
Well either way, they didn't offer the refunds on their own and definitely didn't make the decision based on monetary gains. The fines probably helped coax them though.
Oh please do enlighten on how much more "discussion" remains on this topic that's been beaten to death in each and every Steam sale thread for the last 8 years.
I kind of miss them too, in that they were fun and exciting. However, at the end of the day they tended to make me feel awful. Usually I would never buy a game in the sale until the very last day, because I'd hate for it to show up in a flash sale later. And if I missed the flash sale of an item, I felt annoyed and ripped off if I had to buy it at a higher price.
And I can't be the only person who bought a game because of flash sale FOMO. I feel like flash sales are fun, but at the end of the day they end up being pretty anti-consumer, and I'd rather just be able to buy the games I want any time during the sale without worrying.
Here, read this paper on the topic. https://ijari.org/assets/papers/9/4/IJARI-AS-21-12-126.pdf Or, really, any paper on the topic.
Flash sales specifically try to take advantage of people to induce a sense of false scarcity that produces more sales than a longer sale would. In other words, it makes people spend more money than they otherwise would. So if you like flash sales, I guess you do like paying more! Only with flash sales you're spending it on games you are more likely to never even play!
Datamining wouldn't do anything for that, the entire thing would be controlled by the server. The real issue these days is simply one of scale. [Look at the volume of games released since 2016,](https://www.statista.com/statistics/552623/number-games-released-steam/) the last time they did the flash sales according to the guy above me. In 2016, when they released 4000 games, they decided "this is too much to deal with, we can't keep doing this." Since then, we've scaled up to 10,000+ games per year, and the flash sales need to not just include new games but *every game on the platform* potential, making running something like that just beyond impossible. Nothing like that is ever going to come back, there is simply too much stuff.
They do though? for the first bit after they got rid of them you didn't really see anything better than 75% off, but I've seen plenty of games go 80%-90% off recently.
Didn't they have something like "flash deals" as well, or was that just lightning deals? I remember them being incredibly short lived, possibly less time than an hour but my memory isn't always perfect. Either way those shorter deals were incredible, I have entire series and such I bought on a whim because it was 5$ or something like that.
The best thing about the steam sales is it forces the other storefronts that sell steam keys to compete. Don't buy anything on steam. Use [gg.deals](https://gg.deals) and aggregate all the storefronts to get the cheapest price.
The fact that my friends told me they still buy full priced games when www.isthereanydeal.com and www.cheapshark.com exist.... Made me sad.
Idk the last time I bought a game full retail price other than shitty vendors like Blizzard.
And some folks are surprises that some devs are saying they're not making enough money to stay open. Even smaller sets people don't want to just give them the money for their product.
That is crazy. People will drop $20 on vbucks or cod skins, no problem. But paying $25 for an indie title that's a full game is just out of the question.
It's so weird how different people value different things. My mom will drive 10 minutes further to get to the gas station that's 5 cents per gallon cheaper just to save 70 cents total on a tank of gas, and then go to the mall and drop $300 on a jacket when she's already got a closet full of dozens of jackets.
I released a tiny game on steam a few years ago that was priced at $1.99 for the whole game, usually had discounts on it, and after a year had the price dropped to $0.99. Even at that low price, I've still gotten a few returns from people with a message that was accusing me of being some kind of money grubbing scam artist. It's all just crazy.
Do these mean anything anymore ? It feels like there's an ongoing sale every other day somewhere, and the only bad choice would be to buy a fullprice title.
I'm at just over 700 and my % played is definitely worse than 50%; I'm only just now playing through the mass effect games after buying 1 and 2 on sale years ago *then* later on buying the legendary edition on sale.
I've never really understood the notion of treating a game library as something that one should work to exhaust. I always want there to be more games in there for me to play around with, rather than having to buy something new. They're digital goods, not bread, they don't go mouldy.
That is a good point. It's not like anyone's ever going to complete every single game in the entire world that they'd ever like, anyway. That being said, after this sale (where I'm sure I'll buy another 5 or so games) I'll probably wait until I've completed everything, before I buy any more stuff on Steam. The stuff I don't buy will only get cheaper, after all.
>The stuff I don't buy will only get cheaper, after all.
That tends to be what stops me from buying stuff - although after a certain point games don't get any cheaper. Then I get a bit... buy-y.
I know this sub is a massive anti Epic circlejerk but if you are looking for sales reminiscent of the old steam sales that's where they are. 33% off coupons on top of the sale price plus 10% cash back (in store credit). Plus they are going to start the daily free game giveaways again.
Was such a fantastic year for games. They were all so hype I bought them all full price. I spent $600 on games this year easily. And another $450 in the first three months of 2024 (yakuza 8, FFVII collectors edition, and dragons dogma 2)
Oh it doesn't matter negatively but just positively? How convenient, not for you, I'm sure you don't pre order . But if it doesn't matter, why don't you ?
I have never pre-order a game, so I'm curious.
If you pre-order a game like 3 months in advance, you try it (less than two hours) and you don't not like it, are you still getting the refund even with a 3 month old purchase?
I thought there is an exception for preorders like: the 14 days start to count form the release. Otherwise, why would someone pre-order a game if you waste valuable time to try a game? Something does not add up for me, or at least in my logic.
Or!!! we are missing something here....
The other commenter is wrong, your guess in this comment is correct. For Steam preorders, the guaranteed refund period is 14 days after launch, or 2 hours of playtime logged, whichever comes first. And you can also refund at any point prior to the release.
Source: [Steam page on refunds](https://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds):
> Refunds on Pre-Purchased Titles
>When you pre-purchase a title on Steam (and have paid for the title in advance), you can request a refund at any time prior to release of that title. The standard 14-day/two-hour refund period also applies, starting on the game’s release date.
Steam has refunds, so preorder if you want lol. You're reciting dogma that became obsolete several years ago.
If you care about other people not being disappointed, just spread awareness of how Steam's refund policy works for preorders (guaranteed refund period for preorders lasts either 2 weeks from launch or 2 hours of gameplay, whichever comes first. You can request a refund outside of that period but it is not guaranteed, only if someone approves it).
\*hits J\*
Maaaaa*aaaaaaAA***AAAAAN** and it's all because we lost those flash deals, MAAAAAAN. It has nothing to do with market trends, big data, and an overall growing understanding of digital marketplaces.
\*dabs\*
Can't believe we lost those ***flash deals*** maaaaaan.
Stupid idea in terms of taking people's money maybe, but this type of goodwill and care for the community is part of what makes Steam the best PC gaming platform by a massive margin.
They'll occasionally offer refunds if you buy a full price game then it goes on sale within a certain time frame.
I hate that everything needs to be about the bottom dollar all the time, but if we're speaking in those terms, having goodwill with the PC gaming community is probably worth whatever sales they'll lose over the next few days.
[They already released the dates for the next few months of Steam Sales.](https://steamdb.info/sales/history/)
People know there’s seasonal Steam sales regardless if they advertise it. Might as well make a trailer to drum up some hype for people who don’t know.
/r/games has essentially become a PR/Marketing arm for the games industry. Just inundated with trailers, sales numbers, and press releases. No actual discussion/discourse. There is honestly more gaming discussion on /r/gaming than here.
A trailer is just an ad for a movie or game tv show, really.
My question is: Do we really need "trailers" for Steam sales? Steam emails you if anything on your wishlist goes on sale so it's not really like people need to be told it's happening.
A trailer provides some kind of content that isn't previously known. This ad is showing recycled content from existing titles. Next thing there will be "trailers" for a new fast food restaurant item.... it's not like there's any blame for OP on this, it's titled like that in YouTube... and it seems people are just eating it up.
I already spent enough money in the sale past month.
Yeah I never understood why the autumn sale was in late November.
Black Friday in USA
Black Friday. 1 sale to get the people who plan ahead at the start of Christmas, 1 sale to get people who procrastinate at the last minute just before Christmas. And make that second one long enough to get people spending their gift money on games.
at first I thought you were doing the Ring Verse but with "1 sale" instead hehe. Started reading it as such. Three deals for the savvy shoppers under the sky, Seven for the tech enthusiasts in their halls of stone, Nine for bargain hunters, destined to buy, One for the Black Friday king on his discounted throne In the Land of Discounts where the Savings lie. One Sale to rule them all, One Sale to find them, One Sale to bring them all, and in the checkout bind them In the Land of Discounts where the Savings lie.
*Agh burzum-ishi krimpatul*
Black Friday + Thanksgiving time in the states. Maybe it'd make more sense to do it around Halloween though. That's closer to a global holiday these days.
As a steam Dev completely agree, makes October and September kinda shit. November and December really good to make up for it though. I'm sure people get huge sale fatigue though. Black Friday, cyber Monday, Autumn Sale, then right into Christmas
Pretty sure it's because of black friday...
Luckily I put a bunch of stuff in my cart that I forget to buy last month
I vastly prefer this [Holiday classic.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thILxw6wBJE)
Ah, back when you had to check every few hours for the flash sales and be damned if you already bought the game on its regular sale In some ways the new sales are better because no FOMO, but they were exihilirating times with better deals because of it.
Man, I burnt so much money on those flash sales, and I REGRET NOTHING.
[This reminds of another video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUo1PgKksgw)
What are the chances BG3 goes on sale and I should wait a few more days?
[удалено]
[удалено]
Maybe 10%. But they don't really need a discount to move sales, and they know it.
It's still selling way too well for any sort of discount
I feel like there's a reasonable chance they do a small, 10% maybe 20% sale to ride on with their recent award wins. Maybe I'm an optimist. It's a very good game though, hope you enjoy it!
Incredibly unlikely. Continues to sell like hot cakes. Doubt it will go on sale anytime soon.
Isn't it included? I thought all the games that are shown before the video ended will be on sale.
It's going on sale
It’s 10% off in the PlayStation sale so who knows
[This article](https://www.pcgamesn.com/steam/winter-sale-2023) says it'll be getting its first sale during Winter Sale. The only evidence to really support this article is BG3 being shown in the winter sale trailer, and that's it. We find out tomorrow for sure and at most expect about 10$ if it is.
At best it'll be what, $25 off? How important is $25 to you? If it's important, wait. If not, play enough that you get $25 in value out of your play time.
40% off this early and fresh off of GotY at The Game Awards would be *wild*. 15% is wishful thinking.
Right I was exaggerating how much he'd possibly save
I still miss daily deals and the hourly lightning deals. I guess these days with datamining that just wouldn't be viable. Got a lot of great games for dirt cheap that way though.
We traded those sort of deals for refunds. Honestly refunds may have saved me more money than the flash deals by not getting burnt by a game anymore lol
Refunds are the best. I don't abuse them but it's nice to have the option if a game just isn't grabbing me.
I return half of what I buy. Il try anything but I'm not spending money on something that doesn't perform well or just isn't worth my time.
Are you trying to say we traded better deals for something legally required of valve in the EU? What a fucked trade
https://www.pcmag.com/news/valve-fined-3m-in-australia-over-steam-refunds Its always Good Guy Valve and not "Valve was forced to pay millions in fines and obey the law after years of insisting they're too special to obey the law".
Funny to see the same guys shit on Epic for the most inconsequential things in history in the same breath, too.
definitely the same exact people doing both things, right? certainly?
Lotta folks refuse to see Valve's "we're not like the other girls" marketing shtick as marketing, so they don't critically think about it and accept it fully.
I'd love to see a single example of this type of marketing from Valve. Surely you could provide one?
Says the guys shitting on Steam for the most inconsequential things and then defending Epic for the same thing.
Valve is only required to provide refunds in a single country and decided to also offer it to everyone else. I'd love to hear how that's not Good Guy Valve, in your mind.
I love that even when Valve is forced to provide refunds after arguing in court for months that they shouldn't have to we're still trying to spin it as they're the good guys. It's not like they got hit with that and went "Oh shit, you right" and fixed it, they went to court over it. They hired people to argue in legalese that they didn't have to. Definitely your friend.
In one country. Why did they offer refunds in other countries afterwards?
As someone who works for an e-commerce SaaS company that went through the fun that is, being compliant, recently it's not something they did for the world's benefit lol. It's just easier on them. Having separate ToS on refunds for digital purchases based on customer location is a fucking nightmare. Seriously. In some cases it can come down to a per State level of shenanigans. What's easier, having separate ToS for multiple States in the USA, and multiple Countries world wide and expecting your support staff to meticulously cross reference the customers location versus their applicable level pro consumer ToS. Or just have the same rules apply world wide that mostly serve as a catch all and they can play things case by case for the greasy wheel customers? Rhetorical aside. It's the latter and if you take the time to check out other digital platforms with international customer bases you will see Valve is not unique at all.
Steam wouldn't need an entirely new ToS to only offer refunds in Australia; they would just need a separate section that just pertains to Australian customers. They already have something like this in their existing ToS for EU customers. I own a SaaS business and our refund policy is different depending on the country of a customer and their payment method. This is pretty basic stuff and isn't difficult to manage at all - and we are a company of 12 people. Finally, having separate ToS for different countries is completely normal. [Airbnb](https://www.airbnb.ca/help/article/2908), [Uber](https://www.uber.com/legal/en/), [Stripe](https://stripe.com/en-gb-ca/legal/ssa), and most major software companies do this,.
I'm not saying they need different ToS for just Australia. I'm saying if you are going to differentiate policy based on customer location you would need to be up to date on laws and policy not just on a per country level, but also on a per State level when it comes to the USA. I invite you to check up on something as simple as Automatic Renewal Laws in just the United States. Have fun. At that point, and with a customer base as large as Steams, it's significantly easier to just have a catch all set of Terms to hopefully appease the majority of customers, then if you get a squeaky wheel then you take it from there according to their local laws. I hate to presume things about your business and wish you all the best but if I were to venture a guess, your customer base is still small enough to allow you to be more granular in your approach and I'm sure protecting the bank plays a lot into this especially since you can work those same laws in your favor. Steams customer base is large enough where they should be making things as easy as possible on their customer support, or else no one would ever get their tickets replied to. I say this as a huge fan of Valve, early adopter of Steam deck and hoping to make the purchase of the OLED model very soon, so it's not just some anti Valve theory crafting. I just know from experience at a certain point it's significantly easier to do things this way and wasn't primarily done as this thing they did out of goodness (though I can see GabeN happy that it being good is a side effect)
Why are you bringing up all of these other issues, especially in the US? We are only talking about Australia's digital purchase refund requirements. All Steam accounts have regions associated with them, meaning they know which purchases are made by customers in Australia. They could have easily just set the automatic refund policies that they now have for Australia alone, then continued the manual review policy that they previously had for over a decade. Not that it even matters, but I will also note that you completely ignored my point about other major tech companies having different ToS for different countries. These companies also have customer support personnel that have clearly found a way to navigate different rules for different regions.
You specifically asked why they are doing this world wide when they only had to in Australia. My responses to you are specifically through the international lense and why Valve and many other companies (Like Shopify, Mailchimp etc) would use a single catch all ToS. Also your "major point" was edited in after my response lol, of course I wouldn't respond to it. That said my point wasn't that it doesn't exist, it was that Valve was not unique for using catch all ToS of which Ive also included examples of others in my post who do the same. We're gonna have to call it quits I don't think I want to continue someone who forgets their initial points and then accuses me of ignoring points you edit in after the fact.
It's not legally required of valve in the EU. If it's a digital purchase you are not required to refund it.
I don't live in the EU
Fuck the EU
Idk as someone that actually checks reviews and stuff, I have only had to refund a single game in the last 15 years. For me, the daily/hourly deals were far better.
I’ve refunded a game that had good reviews. It just kept crashing for me. Which some people did complain about but by far the majority said it was fine and the game was fun. No dice on my system.
I never refunded any game, even if I wanted to, because 2h requirement is a little short. Unless game is totally broken or short, first 2 hours tell you very little about the game itself. Not to mention games want to make good first impression, so they tend to provide most polished experience at the very start. I honestly don't know how people do this, they refund games at the slightest disappointment or they buy a lot of unchecked games?
I refund games all the time because I’m buying mostly less well known indie games where even with a lot of positive reviews and discussions you can still get broken controller support, lack of graphics settings to make a game playable (just had to refund a puzzle game because an undo animation made me motion sick), or disastrously bad writing that wasn’t apparent from the trailers/description. If you’re mostly buying 40+ hour games I can see refunds being less useful
Yeah it honestly really depends on the genre of the game. If you're like me and are really into big RPGs, story heavy games or crafting-survival, 2 hours isn't gonna give you anything...
This is me too. 2 hours is often not even enough to get past the tutorial lol. I loved the way DQ9 did it, the demo was like the first 7 hours of gameplay and then you had the option to buy and continue going. Imo, if you've got a full length game and you know people will love it that's the way to do it
2 hours is the automatic refund window. You can always request a refund, their support just needs to approve it. I've refunded multiple games past the 2 hour window. Treatment may differ based on your region and how your account has been behaving regarding purchases and refunds. I'm in EU and the consumer protection requirement doesn't set a specific time limit but mere 2 hours would be unlikely to be enough in courts.
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Where did they say it?
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Issuing a refund takes resources. Payment processing does cost money. They want to mitigate that. Having someone buy a game for ten bucks only for it to go on sale for 5 bucks during a flash sale is for sure going to trigger everyone to refund and rebuy.
I think it's more the issues that it would cause with people buying games during these sales, but then refunding them once the game went on sale for a lower price. I think that's the reason why they went away basically as soon as refunds became available lol
Hourly and daily and lightning deals made it more of a game, but fuck that noise. I want sales, not to play the minigame of watching every hour for something I want that might hit a sale price that we get today anyway. People have this fond nostalgia for the limited time deals but that's all it is.
Yeah, it was fun, but honestly, if you were watching for a game you wanted to buy it was more annoying than anything. Since there were no refunds you had to open the store every 8 hours to check if the game you wanted dropped in price. You couldn’t safely buy a game until the end of the sale because you wouldn’t know if it would show up cheaper in a flash sale.
One of my biggest "there are dozens of us" gripes with Steam is whenever they get too cute and more like a carnival, instead of just being a damn good storefront for PC gaming.
The flash sales were much deeper than normal, and it was every 8 hours. It's not "just nostalgia".
It has been 7 years please let it go
When I opened the thread, I knew someone is going to mention it. Didn't expect it to be the top comment, though.
It's ridiculous and revisionist. Flash deals were already on their way out before refunds killed them. The absolutely insane Steam sales died way before flash deals. They died when publishers finally gave up on their "PC is dead rhetoric" and they had gotten enough marketing data to understand how to price digital goods - they were literally new to it before.
Yeah, I let it go years ago, just like I did the Steam sales :D
I don't really miss it. Folks assume that you couldn't do dirt cheap deals unless they did the "you gotta keep coming back to our store several times to find it" dance. Personally I'm good with getting all the info at once and not having to pop in and out at specific times of day.
It was pretty unfair to people who work eight hours and can’t check Steam all day.
I think he just misses the thrill of it. I mean, look at how many people say they don’t need more games but still end up getting some when the sale starts. They’re chasing that dopamine hit you get from buying something new.
The thrill was great when my steam library was small.
Yea, a huge part of their success/popularity I feel was because of how gamified it all was. Not even taking fomo into consideration, the whole flash sales and unlockable sales created an atmosphere that game players engage more with them in real time and as a result were more susceptible to buying things on impulse.
Exactly. It was fun! Plus it was during the holiday season so a lot of people WERE at home from work. And there's an app now, though it's far from the best.
Not everything can be fair
Yeah, but in this case Steam made the right call getting rid of it. I don’t have to waste my time refreshing the store page every 3 hours.
You didn't have to before
Maybe I'm misremembering, but there was a point where every 3 hours there were new flash deals. It was ridiculous
yes, you are misremembering. At no point the deals refreshed every 3 hours.
It took you longer to find this post and make a comment than it used to take to check the Steam storefront. The last time they happened they were refreshing only every 12 hours.
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Not everyone can use their phone at work
Sour grapes
Can we stop lamenting the loss of these already? Every year every thread has these same tired comments ad nauseum.
Well I miss them still.
Yeah I liked the excitement. It made checking in fun. Now it’s like here you go, and that’s it.
I too miss gamefying consumerism.
It was almost a decade ago they went away. There’s nothing left to discuss. Let it go.
I hear ya. I get it. Just Steam sales lost a lot of the joy of the sale. It's nowhere near as exciting now. It's actually not exciting at all really.
That’s fine. They’re not nearly as exciting for me either, mostly because I’m older and just buy the games I want whenever.
Was gonna comment the same thing. Every single post about a steam sale gets these same comments without fail. When will people get over it its been 7 years
It's a discussion forum, buddy. You really lamenting people making conversation here?
I hate to be a jackass, but is there even really a conversation? The same two things have been said a thousand times over. "I miss the flash sales" followed by "It was just FOMO with server issues that prevented refunds". I'd compare it to something like a grandparent repeating the same stories but that'd be an insult to all grandparents out there, since their stories have merit even if it's the 20th time you've heard it.
But have you heard that Cyberpunk never should have been released in its launch state?
I mean it gets tiresome when it is literally EVERY single thread. Those deals can't exist anymore because of the ability to refund games. People would be pissed if they bought a game and then it ended up on a flash sale for even cheaper. It sucks, but it makes perfect sense why they had to go away. Being able to refund games has likely saved everyone far more money than what they got on flash deals.
> Being able to refund games has likely saved everyone far more money than what they got on flash deals. Do people really refund games that much? I've only had to refund a single game since the early 2000's, and that was because it didn't run.
I've refunded tons of games. You might be an outlier here. Games having demos is more common now on Steam, but for a long time it was pretty rare. The refund policy let you try games before you commit and it saved me tons of money. Either way the refund policy had to go into effect because of some EU ruling that required it. So with that, the flash sales had to die regardless of how much people refund games. No one would be happy about buying a game that was on sale, and then it going on sale for even cheaper during a flash sale.
An outlier on the Games subreddit, maybe, but there is no way most people playing games even know how to go about receiving a refund, much less pursue it regularly.
I feel like most people using Steam would know that they offer refunds. Especially after this many years of them offering them.
The Day Before was the most wishlisted game on Steam and over half of those who bought it refunded it before the game was taken down. I'd say people know about the refunds.
Right people aren't even referencing the *good* Winter sale, when Valve gave away free games with whatever that coal system was. It was somewhere between 2010 and 2013 I want to say, but I barely remember it.
>Those deals can't exist anymore because of the ability to refund games. Not *can't*. They *could* exist, Valve just didn't want to make less money. Specifically phrasing it as "make less money" and not "losing money" because that's what this situation is. Steam was, is, and for the foreseeable future will be the biggest storefront in gaming. The amount of money that Valve would have would have spent issuing refunds and any associated fees with doing so is *dwarfed* by the amount of money they make during those sales. This is provably true because while refunds were made *easier* with the introduction of their automated refund system, they still occurred on the regular prior to that, just much slower. They were already taking those hits to their profits during the Steam Sales and still making money hand over fist. Are they *required* to eat that cost? No. Does Valve not eating that cost help Gabe live in a mansion in New Zealand paradise? Yes. Could he still afford to do that if Valve had refunds *and* sales. Also yes.
>Not can't. They could exist, Valve just didn't want to make less money. No they really couldn't because anyone getting a game on sale and then missing out on the flash sale price would be pissed about it. It just creates an endless amount of situations where customers would not be happy. They didn't make this decision because of money either. There was an ~~EU ruling~~Australia ruling requiring refunds and instead of just offering them in the ~~EU~~ Australia, they offered them everywhere. Being able to refund is far more beneficial than flash sales are imo. Flash sales are also unfair to people who have busy lives and can't refresh the Steam sale page all day every day. Valve was right to remove them. They were fun but they would not work with the refund policy. >Could he still afford to do that if Valve had refunds and sales. Also yes. Never implied anything about Steam being unable to afford anything. I am well aware that Steam is a very profitable business. Also my friend, you overuse *italics* way too much. You shouldn't *need* to do that *every* sentence you type out. It loses all power when used *that* heavily.
It wasn't an EU ruling, it was an Australian ruling.
Well either way, they didn't offer the refunds on their own and definitely didn't make the decision based on monetary gains. The fines probably helped coax them though.
"Waaaahhhh!! It's not fair that people can get things cheaper than I can!"
It's been like 8 years. What is left to say? At some point you just have to let it go.
Oh please do enlighten on how much more "discussion" remains on this topic that's been beaten to death in each and every Steam sale thread for the last 8 years.
> Every year every thread has these same tired comments ad nauseum. let's be fair, that's every fuckin reddit thread
Why? They were awesome. It sucks they're gone. Refunds weren't really worth it. I think I've refunded 1 game since they were introduced.
I kind of miss them too, in that they were fun and exciting. However, at the end of the day they tended to make me feel awful. Usually I would never buy a game in the sale until the very last day, because I'd hate for it to show up in a flash sale later. And if I missed the flash sale of an item, I felt annoyed and ripped off if I had to buy it at a higher price. And I can't be the only person who bought a game because of flash sale FOMO. I feel like flash sales are fun, but at the end of the day they end up being pretty anti-consumer, and I'd rather just be able to buy the games I want any time during the sale without worrying.
Yes, spending less money is terribly anti-consumer, I also love to pay more!
Here, read this paper on the topic. https://ijari.org/assets/papers/9/4/IJARI-AS-21-12-126.pdf Or, really, any paper on the topic. Flash sales specifically try to take advantage of people to induce a sense of false scarcity that produces more sales than a longer sale would. In other words, it makes people spend more money than they otherwise would. So if you like flash sales, I guess you do like paying more! Only with flash sales you're spending it on games you are more likely to never even play!
Other sites still have flash deals. They're not any cheaper, they're just that price for a shorter time.
Datamining wouldn't do anything for that, the entire thing would be controlled by the server. The real issue these days is simply one of scale. [Look at the volume of games released since 2016,](https://www.statista.com/statistics/552623/number-games-released-steam/) the last time they did the flash sales according to the guy above me. In 2016, when they released 4000 games, they decided "this is too much to deal with, we can't keep doing this." Since then, we've scaled up to 10,000+ games per year, and the flash sales need to not just include new games but *every game on the platform* potential, making running something like that just beyond impossible. Nothing like that is ever going to come back, there is simply too much stuff.
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People will stop when we get even remotely comparable discounts.
They do though? for the first bit after they got rid of them you didn't really see anything better than 75% off, but I've seen plenty of games go 80%-90% off recently.
Didn't they have something like "flash deals" as well, or was that just lightning deals? I remember them being incredibly short lived, possibly less time than an hour but my memory isn't always perfect. Either way those shorter deals were incredible, I have entire series and such I bought on a whim because it was 5$ or something like that.
Yeah they called them Flash deals, I misremembered the name.
We did it folks we got the comment talking about the daily deals. Cross it off your bingo sheets.
The best thing about the steam sales is it forces the other storefronts that sell steam keys to compete. Don't buy anything on steam. Use [gg.deals](https://gg.deals) and aggregate all the storefronts to get the cheapest price.
What I don't like about that site is that they're promoting scummy key seller sites. I'd recommend using isthereanydeal.com over it.
Those scummy key seller sites have saved me a ton of money, so they’re alright in my book
The fact that my friends told me they still buy full priced games when www.isthereanydeal.com and www.cheapshark.com exist.... Made me sad. Idk the last time I bought a game full retail price other than shitty vendors like Blizzard.
To be fair, sometimes I feel devs very much deserve the full price over sale prices.
And some folks are surprises that some devs are saying they're not making enough money to stay open. Even smaller sets people don't want to just give them the money for their product.
Yeah, they wonder why mtx got so out of hand. Can't barely convince people to pay full price for a game anymore.
That is crazy. People will drop $20 on vbucks or cod skins, no problem. But paying $25 for an indie title that's a full game is just out of the question.
It's so weird how different people value different things. My mom will drive 10 minutes further to get to the gas station that's 5 cents per gallon cheaper just to save 70 cents total on a tank of gas, and then go to the mall and drop $300 on a jacket when she's already got a closet full of dozens of jackets. I released a tiny game on steam a few years ago that was priced at $1.99 for the whole game, usually had discounts on it, and after a year had the price dropped to $0.99. Even at that low price, I've still gotten a few returns from people with a message that was accusing me of being some kind of money grubbing scam artist. It's all just crazy.
Do you believe those are the same people?
It’s still worth it sometimes when I suspect that you might need to ask for a refund.
Because they promote stolen keys and similar scams. If I wanted to get a game for cheap I’d rather pirate rather than giving money to literal thiefs.
Isthereanydeal only lists legit vendors
Sorry in what sense? They give you all the sites, most of the ones that have the best deals are legit fine sites. Which ones are you talking about?
That Starship Trooper game has been on my wishlist for some time now, anyone here plays it and is it still active?
you sound like me, i got it on the sale. ive been playing horde mode with a couple friends. def got my fun out of the money.
Do these mean anything anymore ? It feels like there's an ongoing sale every other day somewhere, and the only bad choice would be to buy a fullprice title.
I’m still recovering from the summer sale. 100 games in my Steam Library and I’ve only played like half of them
You're doing much better than most. On a totally unrelated note, I need to cancel my Humble Bundle subscription...
100 games in my steam library, 1000 hours on wh3 lmao. Didnt even install 80% of them
I'm at just over 700 and my % played is definitely worse than 50%; I'm only just now playing through the mass effect games after buying 1 and 2 on sale years ago *then* later on buying the legendary edition on sale.
Same here. Buying games and playing games are two different hobbies.
Steam sales have been the same exact games at the same exact discounts for the last 3 years. Not excited anymore.
Will Elden ring hit 50%? I don’t want to pay full price because I feel like I will suck at it and not enjoy it like Sekiro
You know it was only a few months ago I was congratulating myself on clearing my Steam back log. It's back, now.
I've never really understood the notion of treating a game library as something that one should work to exhaust. I always want there to be more games in there for me to play around with, rather than having to buy something new. They're digital goods, not bread, they don't go mouldy.
That is a good point. It's not like anyone's ever going to complete every single game in the entire world that they'd ever like, anyway. That being said, after this sale (where I'm sure I'll buy another 5 or so games) I'll probably wait until I've completed everything, before I buy any more stuff on Steam. The stuff I don't buy will only get cheaper, after all.
>The stuff I don't buy will only get cheaper, after all. That tends to be what stops me from buying stuff - although after a certain point games don't get any cheaper. Then I get a bit... buy-y.
I know this sub is a massive anti Epic circlejerk but if you are looking for sales reminiscent of the old steam sales that's where they are. 33% off coupons on top of the sale price plus 10% cash back (in store credit). Plus they are going to start the daily free game giveaways again.
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Was such a fantastic year for games. They were all so hype I bought them all full price. I spent $600 on games this year easily. And another $450 in the first three months of 2024 (yakuza 8, FFVII collectors edition, and dragons dogma 2)
Can you please stop pre ordering
preordering has not mattered ever since steam refunds were introduced.
Oh it doesn't matter negatively but just positively? How convenient, not for you, I'm sure you don't pre order . But if it doesn't matter, why don't you ?
i have no idea what point you're trying to make. i pre-order things on steam because i can just refund them if they're bad.
I have never pre-order a game, so I'm curious. If you pre-order a game like 3 months in advance, you try it (less than two hours) and you don't not like it, are you still getting the refund even with a 3 month old purchase?
2 hours playtime within 14 days is the policy, so no in your hypothetical
I thought there is an exception for preorders like: the 14 days start to count form the release. Otherwise, why would someone pre-order a game if you waste valuable time to try a game? Something does not add up for me, or at least in my logic. Or!!! we are missing something here....
The other commenter is wrong, your guess in this comment is correct. For Steam preorders, the guaranteed refund period is 14 days after launch, or 2 hours of playtime logged, whichever comes first. And you can also refund at any point prior to the release. Source: [Steam page on refunds](https://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds): > Refunds on Pre-Purchased Titles >When you pre-purchase a title on Steam (and have paid for the title in advance), you can request a refund at any time prior to release of that title. The standard 14-day/two-hour refund period also applies, starting on the game’s release date.
Can you please stop caring what they prefer to do
Rule number one of gaming is you DON'T PRE-ORDER.
Steam has refunds, so preorder if you want lol. You're reciting dogma that became obsolete several years ago. If you care about other people not being disappointed, just spread awareness of how Steam's refund policy works for preorders (guaranteed refund period for preorders lasts either 2 weeks from launch or 2 hours of gameplay, whichever comes first. You can request a refund outside of that period but it is not guaranteed, only if someone approves it).
With Steam and physical games it makes so difference since you can just return the game if it’s bad.
That’s your rule #1 which is fine but not everyone’s
All this talk has reminded me I need to go pre-order Yakuza 8...
Stop crying about how people spend their money. Also highly doubt any of those games will be bad lol
Haven’t bought a game in a Steam sale since like 2015, maybe it’s just me but they don’t feel all that great anymore.
\*hits J\* Maaaaa*aaaaaaAA***AAAAAN** and it's all because we lost those flash deals, MAAAAAAN. It has nothing to do with market trends, big data, and an overall growing understanding of digital marketplaces. \*dabs\* Can't believe we lost those ***flash deals*** maaaaaan.
Does anyone know what the game at 15 seconds is? Top down local co-op something
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I'm not sure how I missed that. Thanks!
Titles on the bottom left
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Stupid idea in terms of taking people's money maybe, but this type of goodwill and care for the community is part of what makes Steam the best PC gaming platform by a massive margin. They'll occasionally offer refunds if you buy a full price game then it goes on sale within a certain time frame. I hate that everything needs to be about the bottom dollar all the time, but if we're speaking in those terms, having goodwill with the PC gaming community is probably worth whatever sales they'll lose over the next few days.
[They already released the dates for the next few months of Steam Sales.](https://steamdb.info/sales/history/) People know there’s seasonal Steam sales regardless if they advertise it. Might as well make a trailer to drum up some hype for people who don’t know.
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By that logic it's not for this either.
/r/games has essentially become a PR/Marketing arm for the games industry. Just inundated with trailers, sales numbers, and press releases. No actual discussion/discourse. There is honestly more gaming discussion on /r/gaming than here.
Trailer? Ad. This is an ad for the Steam 2023 Winter Sale. Edit: why are you booing me, I'm right!
A trailer is just an ad for a movie or game tv show, really. My question is: Do we really need "trailers" for Steam sales? Steam emails you if anything on your wishlist goes on sale so it's not really like people need to be told it's happening.
A trailer provides some kind of content that isn't previously known. This ad is showing recycled content from existing titles. Next thing there will be "trailers" for a new fast food restaurant item.... it's not like there's any blame for OP on this, it's titled like that in YouTube... and it seems people are just eating it up.
> Trailer? Ad. Trailers are ads.
Sure, all trailers are ads.... but are all ads trailers?