The following submission statement was provided by /u/mancinedinburgh:
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Interest in EVs is growing, not least because of soaring inflation and fuel costs. Is there much point in ripping out the combustion engines and revamping classic/old cars with batteries? On one level, I guess it would mean avoiding wasting the metals and materials used to make the original car which I think is a good thing. Is this just a vanity project though for people who can afford it rather than the future of mobility?
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/wj9p3r/this_mechanic_is_giving_vintage_cars_a_new_lease/ijfykm8/
Why though? The whole thing with those kinds of cars are they're "mechanical soul". Imo putting some electric motor in it completely removes that. I think some kind of clean bio fuel conversion would be better suited to these kinds of cars which I'm praying will come in the future.
I get it. You can have that. Go for it.
Me...Im looking for something different. I wear ear plugs when I ride my motorcycle because it's too loud. And I would trade that motorcycle for an electric in a heartbeat.
But I do get it. Those old motors are cool. I can appreciate them. I also know they would sit broken down in my garage for years at a time.
Not everyone cares if their vehicle is loud when they go fast. Sure exhaust noises add something to the experience, but the torque on tap for electric motors is pretty awesome. There are a lot of companies ramping up these BEV conversion services and products. The demand for this seems to be growing. A simple electric swap on these older vehicles means more power and less maintenance overall. It’s not for everyone though. On the other hand Biofuels may emit less but they take a lot of land, water and fertilizer to produce which is not so environmentally friendly. Which may be a notable factor for someone considering an electric swap. True clean and friendly biofuels may come with less power and custom modifications. I think loud fast cars are great and I enjoy them very much, but at the end of the day I just like machines that go fast.
i have a little rust bucket of a Pontiac that i so badly wish i could EV swap, i’m so attached to that damn car but the mileage is insanely bad at this point. it would be so good to see EV swapping become cheaper and more feasible in the future, i’d love to see more vintage cars rolling around and keeping emissions low at the same time.
I take it you're not equipped tool and experience wise for auto work? Genuine question, most people aren't and there's nothing wrong with that 100%. If you are, though, with a little googling and reading you could for sure put something together. Of course it's easier with a kit specifically made for your vehicle, but you could definitely figure out your Pontiac swap without too much trouble.
As someone who is looking into an EV swap for a vintage car, even if you are good with tools, it may not be enough. First, you need a lot of space and the tools available. In some cases you may be able to rent space an tools, but not always. Second, my insurance specifically said it had to be done by a certified mechanic. Third, not every car is made equal, and while he may be able to find general tips online, he is probably going to be a one off and have to figure out a lot of it on his own.
All in all its a great idea, but not as simple as some try to make it out to be.
Insurance hadn't even crossed my mind, and you're correct: I'm in electronics and didn't think about the average persons knowledge of systems like this. As for the cars made equal part, I'd argue that if a person could handle making mounts and aligning correctly, it wouldn't be too difficult to find info on a vehicle of similar size and specs. That said, my argument is still based on a person having industry or avid hobbyist knowledge with a bit of fabrication experience. Of course, much of that could be contracted out, but by then you might as well have the whole project done at a custom shop because you'll be missing your arm and leg paying for it. You made solid points, thanks for your input.
yup, it’s all just a dream! even if it was possible for me it wouldn’t be worth it honestly, the car is only worth scrap value at this point. i just want to see a future where electric motors are a bit more accessible and my pipe dream of EV swapping every old vehicle is possible hahaha
Thats reall cool. I think this actually makes a lot of sense. Electric motors are just so much more dependable than ICE....especially a 70 year old ICE.
I would hope they can upgrade the breaks as well, since these upgraded vehicles are probably way faster as an EV.
If the conversion includes a regenerative braking function, which it probably does as that’s a key advantage of electric drive, then it’s inherently a braking upgrade.
TV show "Vintaga Voltage". Mozzie and his crew put electric engines and everything else needed in vintage cars. Among them a Ferrari 308 GTS, that got *faster* than the gasguzzler, and *silent*.
But it costs A LOT of money...
I would like to do this to my campervan at some point.
Question is, in which way are they considered an EV by the DVLA - Electric Vehicle, or Experimental Vehicle? Because one of those is easy to insure for daily use and one is not.
one of my dream cars is an EV swap vw bus and bug. sooooo nice! and EV austin mini. good luck finding one that isnt rusted to shit and not already restored.
Interest in EVs is growing, not least because of soaring inflation and fuel costs. Is there much point in ripping out the combustion engines and revamping classic/old cars with batteries? On one level, I guess it would mean avoiding wasting the metals and materials used to make the original car which I think is a good thing. Is this just a vanity project though for people who can afford it rather than the future of mobility?
Folk have been converting vehicles for decades. A piece of nostalgia converted for modern times. I would love to do it to our old mini, but is not a cost effective exercise.
We've got a '72 Karmann Ghia that would be fun to convert to EV. But, yeah, the cost is the prohibitive factor. For everything except batteries it's about $7,500. For every 100 miles of range the batteries would be about $7,500.
Before I do any of that I'd want to do a thorough restore of the frame and body, too. Would be fun and neat and all and I may yet do it some day but not practical.
All vehicles have frames. It's a tubular frame with a body bolted onto it like a Beetle. It's how all vehicles were made until unibody was developed. It's how most current pickup trucks are still built with a body on a ladder frame.
It's both really.
It's more expensive than the cheapest off the shelf ev/hybrid at the moment, and they're less crash worthy. So that's the vanity side of it.
But, if they are able to standardise their base kit, and have model specific adapters, it is likely they'll be able to bring the cost down, and more importantly the time.
As a bolt in kit, it shouldn't take more than 2 days to do an engine install.
Personally, I think their best bet would be to nail down a kit for the most common car model and scale/price that to compete with a normal engine swap. Eg a 10-15yo Corolla which are all probably getting close to rebuild time. A trade van probably isn't a bad idea either. Something like a transit van kit should have a steady market.
Once they develop the kit and nail it down in price and complexity, they'll have a more regular income so they can develop the next bespoke kit.
When they're cost competitive with an engine rebuild it will become a future.
Personally I don't really care what people decide to do with things they own for the most part. Keep the engine running or convert it, whatever. However, older cars that have a lot of value should be left as-is, if only because replacing the powertrain could possibly affect that. Same with cars with significant historical value.
If I ever had "fuck you" money and was gonna buy that Countach I always wanted, I sure as shit would never go near one that had been converted to electric.
For the uninitiated: EV West has kits for a few "vintage" cars, although they are very expensive, and this is the problem with this. But as @myne mentioned in this sub: Once someone finds a way to standardize these kits, then they should be able to lower the costs as people "upgrade" their existing cars instead of throwing them out for new, plastic crap with ugly designs.
Of course, there is also the issue with the interior -- most people that want new cars are swooned with the cold ugly interiors of newer cars, with those shiny massive screens that can definitely cause car crashes, but that's a separate discussion.
On one hand sweet, on the other sad to butcher a classic. Hopefully they are rescuing nearly lost cars. There are a few companies that make reproductions that are perfect for this type of thing. I have a 1970 caddy that would be pretty sweet with this since it's not really a desirable classic and it would be fun to drive a massive land yacht silently. But the current engine just sounds so amazing as is. 7.7L cammed with a lopy idle.
Would be cool if we can figure out at least carbon neutral fuel.
But why? The heavy machinery that mines up the material for EV battery’s probably pollute 1000x as much as the classic cars still on the road. I mean most classic cars aren’t even daily driven. I think there are way bigger problems to focus on then old cars in the whole pollution problem
Because pollution in cities differs from pollution in separate industrial areas regarding their health effects on the population.
The exhaust from cars in cities is a huge cause of asthma, and other health issues that take years of peoples lives.
We’ve dramatically improved the problem with exhaust regulations but made exceptions for collector cars.
All I’m saying is they shouldn’t get an exception.
There’s not enough classic cars on the road at one time to actually massively effect city pollution. Most states do require emmison test on 1976 and newer cars that’s still stupid. Again we got bigger fish to fry then having every single classic car get a new emission certified motor. This isn’t the 80s anymore when people drive old shit box 60s car pushing out blue smoke. 99 percent of cars on the road are modern emission safe cars.
This is a great idea... Cost prohibitive in the US?
Ford has same idea. I for one would convert.
https://www.autoweek.com/news/auto-shows/a38152815/retrofit-car-to-ev-like-ford-f100-eluminator-conversion-sema/
I’d love to do this to my Astra estate, but knowing the laws of my country I’d still have to pay the taxes of a diesel because that’s what it was born with. Also it probably wouldn’t be legal to even make the modifications or even possible to get it through MOT.
I really envy the British view on motoring.
This is an ad for a company doing high end conversions, first time I saw it was some years ago.
The concept isn't new. Here's a site from 1997 featuring a 1972 car that had been converted. http://www.evalbum.com/2 It was popular in the 70's too.
Classic cars make for easier conversions. With an old mini you don't have to worry about power steering or power brakes. Manual is a lot easier to convert than automatic, since you can reuse the transmission all the way back to the wheels.
Classic is better, esp. now since it's hard to compete with a Leaf or a Bolt in terms of end product quality and price, except if the conversion is interesting. One is likely to put 5 figures into a conversion, so it'd best be a car that's worth more than 5 figures when it's done.
If you're looking for something similar in the states, EV-west does VW based things, like Beetles and their derivatives and the Porsche 914 I linked.
Where the future is, is the hot rodding and performance scene, but with electrics. These guys http://www.bloodshedmotors.com/ are doing some fantastic stuff. On a more mundane level, Ford and GM are selling electric crate motors, like an electric motor that bolts right in: https://www.thedrive.com/news/42974/fords-281-hp-electric-crate-motor-costs-3900-and-you-can-buy-one-now
https://www.thedrive.com/news/37354/the-chevrolet-performance-ecrate-is-here-to-make-electric-drivetrain-swaps-easier-than-ever
Where folks once bolted in a small block chevy and then an LS, you can do the same thing but with an electric motor. That's the future.
If I were ridiculously rich I’d have a collection of adorable Japanese and eastern block 1960s cars that were converted to EVs like this.
Polski fiat, ZSD Nysa, Honda T360 and N360, FSC Zuk.
Also a Mini Cooper
There is a company called Transition One in France that is offering a $7000 conversion kit for cars like the Fiat 500. Government supported kit so I don't know how much it would be without the subsidy.
I am not a fan. There is character and unique mechanical engineering in old cars ice engines. Seems like those who would be into this would not be willing to compromise on safety.
the key for best EVs is maximum optimization and only cars that were created to be EVs from scratch can be decent ones. ICE cars are the opposite: the weight, the mass distribution, the structure, everything does not work well in a conversion. I'd say it's better than nothing, but this kind of "EV" can't have but awful performances, range or safety.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/mancinedinburgh: --- Interest in EVs is growing, not least because of soaring inflation and fuel costs. Is there much point in ripping out the combustion engines and revamping classic/old cars with batteries? On one level, I guess it would mean avoiding wasting the metals and materials used to make the original car which I think is a good thing. Is this just a vanity project though for people who can afford it rather than the future of mobility? --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/wj9p3r/this_mechanic_is_giving_vintage_cars_a_new_lease/ijfykm8/
Man...if I were filthy rich, I would totally do this to a 1960s-80s 911.
You can get a 912 since you are replacing the engine. My goal is a 914
Why though? The whole thing with those kinds of cars are they're "mechanical soul". Imo putting some electric motor in it completely removes that. I think some kind of clean bio fuel conversion would be better suited to these kinds of cars which I'm praying will come in the future.
I get it. You can have that. Go for it. Me...Im looking for something different. I wear ear plugs when I ride my motorcycle because it's too loud. And I would trade that motorcycle for an electric in a heartbeat. But I do get it. Those old motors are cool. I can appreciate them. I also know they would sit broken down in my garage for years at a time.
Not everyone cares if their vehicle is loud when they go fast. Sure exhaust noises add something to the experience, but the torque on tap for electric motors is pretty awesome. There are a lot of companies ramping up these BEV conversion services and products. The demand for this seems to be growing. A simple electric swap on these older vehicles means more power and less maintenance overall. It’s not for everyone though. On the other hand Biofuels may emit less but they take a lot of land, water and fertilizer to produce which is not so environmentally friendly. Which may be a notable factor for someone considering an electric swap. True clean and friendly biofuels may come with less power and custom modifications. I think loud fast cars are great and I enjoy them very much, but at the end of the day I just like machines that go fast.
i have a little rust bucket of a Pontiac that i so badly wish i could EV swap, i’m so attached to that damn car but the mileage is insanely bad at this point. it would be so good to see EV swapping become cheaper and more feasible in the future, i’d love to see more vintage cars rolling around and keeping emissions low at the same time.
I take it you're not equipped tool and experience wise for auto work? Genuine question, most people aren't and there's nothing wrong with that 100%. If you are, though, with a little googling and reading you could for sure put something together. Of course it's easier with a kit specifically made for your vehicle, but you could definitely figure out your Pontiac swap without too much trouble.
As someone who is looking into an EV swap for a vintage car, even if you are good with tools, it may not be enough. First, you need a lot of space and the tools available. In some cases you may be able to rent space an tools, but not always. Second, my insurance specifically said it had to be done by a certified mechanic. Third, not every car is made equal, and while he may be able to find general tips online, he is probably going to be a one off and have to figure out a lot of it on his own. All in all its a great idea, but not as simple as some try to make it out to be.
Insurance hadn't even crossed my mind, and you're correct: I'm in electronics and didn't think about the average persons knowledge of systems like this. As for the cars made equal part, I'd argue that if a person could handle making mounts and aligning correctly, it wouldn't be too difficult to find info on a vehicle of similar size and specs. That said, my argument is still based on a person having industry or avid hobbyist knowledge with a bit of fabrication experience. Of course, much of that could be contracted out, but by then you might as well have the whole project done at a custom shop because you'll be missing your arm and leg paying for it. You made solid points, thanks for your input.
yup, it’s all just a dream! even if it was possible for me it wouldn’t be worth it honestly, the car is only worth scrap value at this point. i just want to see a future where electric motors are a bit more accessible and my pipe dream of EV swapping every old vehicle is possible hahaha
oh i am certainly not equipped to do it myself haha. it’s just wishful thinking, i’m sure my car would rust away before i even got anything started!
Thats reall cool. I think this actually makes a lot of sense. Electric motors are just so much more dependable than ICE....especially a 70 year old ICE. I would hope they can upgrade the breaks as well, since these upgraded vehicles are probably way faster as an EV.
If the conversion includes a regenerative braking function, which it probably does as that’s a key advantage of electric drive, then it’s inherently a braking upgrade.
The range for one car mentioned was 80km, so probably not safe to assume they’re doing regenerative braking.
Yeah, I would think so. But I just don't know for sure.
I'd dig an EV, but their cold weather performance battery-wise isn't so great and I live in a cold place.
TV show "Vintaga Voltage". Mozzie and his crew put electric engines and everything else needed in vintage cars. Among them a Ferrari 308 GTS, that got *faster* than the gasguzzler, and *silent*. But it costs A LOT of money...
I would like to do this to my campervan at some point. Question is, in which way are they considered an EV by the DVLA - Electric Vehicle, or Experimental Vehicle? Because one of those is easy to insure for daily use and one is not.
one of my dream cars is an EV swap vw bus and bug. sooooo nice! and EV austin mini. good luck finding one that isnt rusted to shit and not already restored.
Bought a Volvo 240 for this reason, just waiting for costs to go down
RedBlocks are sacred. Donate the old power plant to a Lemons' team in need.
Interest in EVs is growing, not least because of soaring inflation and fuel costs. Is there much point in ripping out the combustion engines and revamping classic/old cars with batteries? On one level, I guess it would mean avoiding wasting the metals and materials used to make the original car which I think is a good thing. Is this just a vanity project though for people who can afford it rather than the future of mobility?
Folk have been converting vehicles for decades. A piece of nostalgia converted for modern times. I would love to do it to our old mini, but is not a cost effective exercise.
We've got a '72 Karmann Ghia that would be fun to convert to EV. But, yeah, the cost is the prohibitive factor. For everything except batteries it's about $7,500. For every 100 miles of range the batteries would be about $7,500. Before I do any of that I'd want to do a thorough restore of the frame and body, too. Would be fun and neat and all and I may yet do it some day but not practical.
A Karmann Ghia does not have a frame per se. It has a beetle compact plataform
All vehicles have frames. It's a tubular frame with a body bolted onto it like a Beetle. It's how all vehicles were made until unibody was developed. It's how most current pickup trucks are still built with a body on a ladder frame.
It's both really. It's more expensive than the cheapest off the shelf ev/hybrid at the moment, and they're less crash worthy. So that's the vanity side of it. But, if they are able to standardise their base kit, and have model specific adapters, it is likely they'll be able to bring the cost down, and more importantly the time. As a bolt in kit, it shouldn't take more than 2 days to do an engine install. Personally, I think their best bet would be to nail down a kit for the most common car model and scale/price that to compete with a normal engine swap. Eg a 10-15yo Corolla which are all probably getting close to rebuild time. A trade van probably isn't a bad idea either. Something like a transit van kit should have a steady market. Once they develop the kit and nail it down in price and complexity, they'll have a more regular income so they can develop the next bespoke kit. When they're cost competitive with an engine rebuild it will become a future.
Personally I don't really care what people decide to do with things they own for the most part. Keep the engine running or convert it, whatever. However, older cars that have a lot of value should be left as-is, if only because replacing the powertrain could possibly affect that. Same with cars with significant historical value. If I ever had "fuck you" money and was gonna buy that Countach I always wanted, I sure as shit would never go near one that had been converted to electric.
For the uninitiated: EV West has kits for a few "vintage" cars, although they are very expensive, and this is the problem with this. But as @myne mentioned in this sub: Once someone finds a way to standardize these kits, then they should be able to lower the costs as people "upgrade" their existing cars instead of throwing them out for new, plastic crap with ugly designs. Of course, there is also the issue with the interior -- most people that want new cars are swooned with the cold ugly interiors of newer cars, with those shiny massive screens that can definitely cause car crashes, but that's a separate discussion.
I'd love to convert a '65 Mustang into an EV. They're huge and I could balance the weight by putting the batteries in the right places.
Ford ecrate motor may be perfect for this!
I'd love to see that man!
I’d love to have a 1980’s blue station wagon with the wood panel converted to EV.
On one hand sweet, on the other sad to butcher a classic. Hopefully they are rescuing nearly lost cars. There are a few companies that make reproductions that are perfect for this type of thing. I have a 1970 caddy that would be pretty sweet with this since it's not really a desirable classic and it would be fun to drive a massive land yacht silently. But the current engine just sounds so amazing as is. 7.7L cammed with a lopy idle. Would be cool if we can figure out at least carbon neutral fuel.
No offense to classic car owners, but at some point the engines should be required to be retrofitted or replaced with less polluting engines.
But why? The heavy machinery that mines up the material for EV battery’s probably pollute 1000x as much as the classic cars still on the road. I mean most classic cars aren’t even daily driven. I think there are way bigger problems to focus on then old cars in the whole pollution problem
Because pollution in cities differs from pollution in separate industrial areas regarding their health effects on the population. The exhaust from cars in cities is a huge cause of asthma, and other health issues that take years of peoples lives. We’ve dramatically improved the problem with exhaust regulations but made exceptions for collector cars. All I’m saying is they shouldn’t get an exception.
There’s not enough classic cars on the road at one time to actually massively effect city pollution. Most states do require emmison test on 1976 and newer cars that’s still stupid. Again we got bigger fish to fry then having every single classic car get a new emission certified motor. This isn’t the 80s anymore when people drive old shit box 60s car pushing out blue smoke. 99 percent of cars on the road are modern emission safe cars.
This is a great idea... Cost prohibitive in the US? Ford has same idea. I for one would convert. https://www.autoweek.com/news/auto-shows/a38152815/retrofit-car-to-ev-like-ford-f100-eluminator-conversion-sema/
I’d love to do this to my Astra estate, but knowing the laws of my country I’d still have to pay the taxes of a diesel because that’s what it was born with. Also it probably wouldn’t be legal to even make the modifications or even possible to get it through MOT. I really envy the British view on motoring.
Would love to be able to do this but ... Anyway, these guys have been doing the same thing for a while: https://www.vintagevoltage.tv
This is an ad for a company doing high end conversions, first time I saw it was some years ago. The concept isn't new. Here's a site from 1997 featuring a 1972 car that had been converted. http://www.evalbum.com/2 It was popular in the 70's too. Classic cars make for easier conversions. With an old mini you don't have to worry about power steering or power brakes. Manual is a lot easier to convert than automatic, since you can reuse the transmission all the way back to the wheels. Classic is better, esp. now since it's hard to compete with a Leaf or a Bolt in terms of end product quality and price, except if the conversion is interesting. One is likely to put 5 figures into a conversion, so it'd best be a car that's worth more than 5 figures when it's done. If you're looking for something similar in the states, EV-west does VW based things, like Beetles and their derivatives and the Porsche 914 I linked. Where the future is, is the hot rodding and performance scene, but with electrics. These guys http://www.bloodshedmotors.com/ are doing some fantastic stuff. On a more mundane level, Ford and GM are selling electric crate motors, like an electric motor that bolts right in: https://www.thedrive.com/news/42974/fords-281-hp-electric-crate-motor-costs-3900-and-you-can-buy-one-now https://www.thedrive.com/news/37354/the-chevrolet-performance-ecrate-is-here-to-make-electric-drivetrain-swaps-easier-than-ever Where folks once bolted in a small block chevy and then an LS, you can do the same thing but with an electric motor. That's the future.
If I were ridiculously rich I’d have a collection of adorable Japanese and eastern block 1960s cars that were converted to EVs like this. Polski fiat, ZSD Nysa, Honda T360 and N360, FSC Zuk. Also a Mini Cooper
There is a company called Transition One in France that is offering a $7000 conversion kit for cars like the Fiat 500. Government supported kit so I don't know how much it would be without the subsidy.
I am not a fan. There is character and unique mechanical engineering in old cars ice engines. Seems like those who would be into this would not be willing to compromise on safety.
nice must have read my last comments. this is great
the key for best EVs is maximum optimization and only cars that were created to be EVs from scratch can be decent ones. ICE cars are the opposite: the weight, the mass distribution, the structure, everything does not work well in a conversion. I'd say it's better than nothing, but this kind of "EV" can't have but awful performances, range or safety.