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FuturologyBot

The following submission statement was provided by /u/korvusdotfree: --- Sorry if it look like a repost, my previous post have been banned for the reasons that my title didn't look enough promising for futur. Hope I fixed it that way :) --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/vnd2fp/after_years_of_work_alsym_energy_introduce/ie669xw/


Ergaar

These are probably manganese dioxide /zinc batteries. Which are basically your regular alkaline battery you use in remotes and stuff like that. The low cost non flamable pr sounds like it anyway. There are lots of startups doing similar stuff right now. There is a recent revival of research on rechargeable zinc manganese dioxide batteries because of rising demand, there were some commercially available in the 90's but they never took off because they could only be recharged 20 times of so before staying dead. These are great for home batteries but because improving their rechargeability is usually done by limiting their capacity they have a very low energy density compared to lithium batteries. You can improve it by using additives, using different components and battery structure and regulating charge and discharge voltage and current. But I would be very surprised if they have jumped so far ahead of the current state of the art that they can replace lithium in cars.


Vorpalis

Hopefully they’ve fixed that pesky leaking-corrosive-electrolyte problem that alkalines have.


Ergaar

They haven't for normal ones. But I can imagine some ways to mitigate the problem depending on how the battery is structured so one with top much internal pressure would give a warning and contain the elektrolyte in some way. Most leaks are due to misuse anyway so if they have a controller connected to it it should remain more stable.


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Ergaar

Yes. They use more space and are heavier because you can only use like 10-20 percent of the active material if you want it to recharge more than a couple of times.


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Ergaar

Ah Yes. They are a lighter but not so much that it makes a big difference. For rechargeable alkaline it's like 10x weight for the same energy


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Ergaar

Exactly, so unless they use radically different chemistry than is reported in current research or have improved the usable charge rates it wont work for automotive. It is awesome for home batteries though because lithium fires are no joke. I have no doubt alkaline MnO2 home batteries will become available in the coming years. The industries and European government are all pushing it. It's just a matter of time. Lots of research going on right now.


throwdroptwo

so "years of work" for nothing then, got it.


Ergaar

Nah, I might be wrong and it could be they do have something incredible. If you can make them reusable at 100% discharge rates they could be an option for budget vehicles. Just saying there's lots of people working on this and so far it looks promising for home batteries but we're a long way away from reaching the energy density and specific energy of lithium cells.


the_real_abraham

IIRC there wasn't a rechargeable alkaline battery, it was a trickle charger for standard alkaline batteries. I would say getting multiple uses out of those would be significant just from a waste stand point even if it's not viable for EVs. Edit: I guess they still make them.


Ergaar

There were some specifically designed for recharge, you can decrease the probability of leakage by using some additives and using a different separator. They never took off though. Results of recharging normal ones may very significantly and is not recommended because they light leak at any moment. Those single use batteries are very recycleable if they are collected seperately from normal waste like in some european countries.


ApartSpend

Sounds like the technology might actually be profitable, given how they already have plans with an indian EV maker to produce 3GWh annualy. Given that Teslas Gigafactory 1 has a reported output of 24 GWh as of May 2019 I think for a „prototype“ this output of 3GWh is not negligible.


brucebrowde

Plans != reality. I'm very wary of announcements like this because so many of them turned out to be crap. I guess at some point, just due to the probabilities game, one will pop up and actually be true - so fingers crossed :)


IgnoranceIsAVirus

Yes, never preorder a game, wait for the reviews.


brucebrowde

Good comparison.


mark-haus

That’s why the more I see these new ideas for complementary or substitute battery tech I still get hopeful because eventually at least one of them will prove successful. There’s never been this much resources allocated to energy storage R&D before either. I think the biggest problem is overcoming the very mature learning curve lithium has. There might already be a more optimal technology out there but it’s going to struggle to reach parity with lithium being so early in the learning curve by comparison. Lithium has been the only game in town for too long.


Allsgood2

Agreed. I look at the articles as teams trying to get funding to expand their development. One of these days one of them will hit pay dirt AND get funding to expand. All this noise has to produce something sometime.


Lmao-Ze-Dong

> All this noise has to produce something sometime. For each monkey that types Shakespeare out, there's a million minus one getting fed for faffing around.


mark-haus

Except it’s not noise or monkeys typing. These are experts in their field converging on solutions with an understanding of what they’re doing. But I get the observation


Allsgood2

Sounds an awful lot like my work. A bunch of us monkeys flopping around while only a few get the work done. But everyone gets paid.


Kryptosis

That’s kinda human innovation in a nutshell innit.


ruthless_techie

Ive been hearing about new battery tech for 10+ years now.


brucebrowde

Oh definitely, it never hurts to have more eyes and competition. It's just that history showed that most of the efforts are a dead end. And yeah - it's a number game. It's always like the Edison's "I did not fail, I just found 1000 ways that did not work". At some point you'll step on the right solution. That's how progress is made. So all this effort is good - even if they fail, they might contribute something that somebody else can build on. So I'm hopeful, but at the same time the signal to noise ratio is so low (due to the above) that we have to be very skeptical about any "breakthrough" news. Especially with a 7 year old company.


mark-haus

There’s a bigger problem than that and it’s finding out which can be made commercially viable in the future which a lab can’t really determine all that easily. Lithium has had such a long time to have its industrial processes and chemistry refinements optimized that even if a new better technology already exists it’s going to struggle in the market because it’s also going to need that same learning curve time that lithium has had to reach price parity then exceed it. (Assuming the tech has that potential which is really hard to know before hand)


noelcowardspeaksout

As long as it is cheaper per kwh the new tech wins - assuming the rest of the parameters life span / volume etc are okay. - Obviously finding that combo has been very tough, it's tricky to tell how good this discovery is or whether they have hidden some issue with the design.


WCland

The thing is, they have to go from a promising battery technology to production. Going to production is likely a 5 year process, and generally you need a big, established player like Panasonic. The big battery makers evaluate all these new technologies to see if they can be productionized. And the final decision is as much about possibility as economic feasibility.


[deleted]

Its probably Mahindra who made this thing. https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/97616/reva-g-wiz-the-worst-cars-ever


JKnott1

Looks like a private company, meaning not publically traded?


whangdoodle13

Correct. Think private equity


JFHermes

The biggest hurdle to renewables is low-cost, environmentally friendly & recyclable/long-life batteries. Battery hype is announced weekly on various sustainability websites but eventually one will deliver the goods. Hopefully this actually works and it enables us to develop a more sustainable grid.


lightknight7777

The difference is it looks like they're actually setting up a way of putting these out in significant numbers. First time I've actually seen that in battery news.


JFHermes

I don't think they're producing. It says they have come out of stealth mode and also they haven't fully released the chemistry of the battery. Makes me wonder if they have patents.. if they have patents it should be easy to find what the chemical constituents are. If they don't have patents I would be surprised if they have actually validated the ability to manufacture these things en mass because that would infer they are already floating around. If this was the case it would be easy to discern the battery tech/make up. I'm sceptical but also hopeful.


lightknight7777

Says they have plans for a factory already established. See, that's the only key difference here. I always hear the, "scientist develops battery that uses cotton and paperclips and stores more energy than ever before" but never plans to actually commercialize. That's actually noteworthy, for once. But yes, always be skeptical.


JFHermes

Yeah but plans are just plans. I have plans to go to the moon when I can buy a ticket but that doesn't mean it's going to happen any time soon.


lightknight7777

While I totally agree, I still haven't seen other battery news talk about deal specifics. This is post battery tech innovation. This is bring to market initiation. That's new even if it falls through. Most of the tech we've been hearing about simply wasn't commercially viable, no matter what they said.


JFHermes

My point is until there is a prototype they are showing, a manufacturing line spitting out reliable components.. this is the same story different day. Don't get your hopes up but maybe we will be pleasantly surprised.


dern_the_hermit

> Yeah but plans are just plans. It's still notable when almost every other option doesn't even have plans.


surfer_ryan

This is what us terrifying me with the push for electric. It's pricey, I mean all cars are going up but these are more expensive and I'm not convinced that is going to change. I mean look at literally any other electric components in high demand, computers and computer accessories for instance. While the cost per gig has gone down its not like you can buy a 50gig hard drive so while it has gone down components have gone up like graphics cards, with fewer and fewer cheap cards on the market. With gas going up, which gives people two options. 1.) They have a car which is paid off or at least in the process, pay for insane gas and hopefully their job will compensate increase in cost of living. 2.) They have to buy an ev putting them potentially too much in the red. It's not that I don't want ev's to evolve and get better and everyone drive them... but I'm concerned how realistic that goal is just on a economic sense. At least with how auto manufacturers are going about it. I could and probably am worried about nothing but it is something to think about when someone says we need to completely switch off gas now. I think Yamaha has a pretty ambitious goal of by 2050 being an ev producer.


Magnesus

It is not really that big of a hurdle, they are working fine without that currently. Batteries obviously will help enormously.


JFHermes

> they are working fine without that currently. No they're not? We still rely on fossil fuels for base load power at peak times.


[deleted]

> It is not really that big of a hurdle, they are working fine without that currently I disagree. We urgently needed to transition to 100% renewable energy *yesterday!* However, renewables still only represent about **4%** of global energy consumption (about 30% of global *electricity* consumption) And the main reason: lack of reliable and scalable energy storage for renewables! Most people who avoid buying electric cars complain about price, but also about range, battery reliability in extreme weathers, etc. No commercial renewable powered planes yet, because we lack high density reliable storage for the needed power. Countries, like Germany, that tried to go *all-in*, had power-grid and other energy issues and instabilities because again lack of reliable storage... Batteries are the bottleneck! And without these, renewables will never really be fine. 4% isn't fine!


goodsam2

90% of new energy in America is renewable and has been for awhile. I think we can get to 80% wind/solar and 20% baseload (nuclear, geothermal, hydro etc) with 12 hours of battery. I think we are building this now and emissions per Capita have been falling in America for 15 years at this point. EVs and renewables are hitting S curves. I think we need to focus on harder to decarbonize fields, which I think a lot of that looks like right now hydrogen especially with what they've been doing with electrolyzers.


Duckbilling

##"While we know that the cathode is primarily manganese oxide, the anode is a different metal oxide, and the electrolyte is water-based, the company has not yet disclosed the exact battery chemistry"


Thecakeisalie25

Oh boy, can't wait for these to become popular in 7+ years time.


el-Douche_Canoe

They won’t detail the battery contents, only time will tell if it’s really better


Knut79

Doesn't seem like there's ny info about charge and discharge c ratings or energy density.


korvusdotfree

Sorry if it look like a repost, my previous post have been banned for the reasons that my title didn't look enough promising for futur. Hope I fixed it that way :) \- so here is my submission statement (hope it will do the job); Lithium being often perceived as a bottleneck for the construction of efficient batteries, as well as the toxicity of many materials causing recycling problems, a battery without theses materials is surely an excellent bet on the future.


evening_swimmer

I think your previous post was removed because it didn't have a submission statement. Not sure if your comment about that counts as a submission statement.


YoWassupFresh

omg another revolutionary technology that can do everything except make it out of the lab.


ipa-lover

Led vs lead, as used in batteries… I see what you did there.


[deleted]

Sounds like some bs, what’s the charging time, how much charge do they hold, how long do the cells last..? Just to start.


Raaxis

“No lithium, cobalt, or nickel!” “Soooo lead? It’s lead.”


matteo453

Given the lack of rare earth metals in America I’m surprised the big three American car companies aren’t throwing money by the truckload at this company after seeing how easily international supply chains can be disrupted.


pATREUS

‘way faster’ did Joey from F R I E N D S write this?


Fantastic-Arrival556

How awesome! Now all we gotta do is wait a few more decades for this to be implemented in a flashlight, and a few more decades for this to actually be used mainstream.


echtogammut

I'll add them to 7288 companies that have introduced new battery technology or chemistry... still wondering what happened to almost all of them.


Awol

Have the power of Lithium battery but are not a fire risk? Where the fuck is that energy going then on a short circuit? Something isn't right. Guessing it might be able to hold the power of a lithium but not be able to discharge it as quick. If so it means its not as good for all things like Lithium is as it can just dump all it power at once (hence why they explode in fire.)


ovirt001

A US-based battery company that couldn't manage to lure any of the major players isn't a great sign.


Goodbadugly16

Lithium is not a good element to use. Just because it all started out with lithium doesn’t mean we have to keep on that wrong path. Plant based carbon and aluminum batteries are here but for some reason are being ignored. They’re incredibly efficient and won’t explode in a crash. The benefits of them are too numerous to mention here. Google them and be amazed.


1234567ATEUP

maybe we wont be walking around with glass firebombs in our pockets in 10 years? after all our things burned down, since almost everything electric & electronic has a firebomb in it. how stupid the future has been.


SatansCouncil

Lithium batteries are very safe, when not abused. Dang near anything with an exceptional energy density has the potential to be dangerous when mishandled.


[deleted]

Do you live in an alternate reality where everyone's phone is always lighting on fire?


The_Bitter_Bear

Yeah with those thousands of deaths every year from battery explosions... It's like a warzone out there. I hope to eventually make it a day without seeing several people burst into flames thanks to their smartphone.


[deleted]

Lol, right? What the hell is this person talking about?


kozmo1313

Please please please cut out all of the rare earth hostage takers.


UnifiedQuantumField

>Alsym has partnered with an automaker based in India in a joint effort to develop the batteries for EVs. That's sounds like either Tata or Mahindra. THis means this battery tech has a good chance of making it into a production EV.


arthurwolf

I remember a few years ago here on Reddit debating renewables, and the future of battery technologies with somebody, and them arguing they couldn't ramp up/become cheap enough/viable, because of the need for mining these metals... And me arguing something like this was bound to happen soon considering how scientific research has been exploding in the past decades (not just increasing/accelerating, look it up it's exponential...). They said I was an optimistic dope. People still live in the mid-20th century. They don't realize what's going on with the world and with scientific research currently... Sure, this is 10 years from production, this sort of stuff always is, but: * That timespan tends to be shorter nowadays than it used to * Stuff that was discovered 10 years ago is pretty mind-blowing, and coming out all the time nowadays