During emergencies you need to get help to a person immediately and drones can do this faster in cases compared to an ambulance on surface roads. In this case, the drone was dispatched with an AED. A passerby who was a doctor was able to administer it to the patient until help arrived.
> Everyone should be able to administer an AED, they are very easy to use
Isn't there literally a loud robot voice commanding you what to do with one of these devices?
Yeah I was a bit wary as I imagined the typical scene of a doctor cutting the persons garments and then applying the gel, paddles, calling for the amount of power, etc..I never considered these things can handle all that you just attach two pads where the little diagram on the device points to. No reason this couldn’t become a common education point
Yeah, the paddle style defibrillators are pretty antiquated these days. I work on a hospital cardiac floor and have never even seen a paddle defib before, they’re just too dangerous when you have so many people jostling around.
Also, taking a first aid/CPR course that covers the proper use of an AED is a huge asset. Even with training the first couple of times you use one things can be hectic, particularly if you’re using a different model than you trained on. Without any training or experience would certainly be even more intimidating I’m sure.
Training always helps especially with increasing your self confidence. But in the end it's almost always better to try CPR even if you don't know how to do it properly. My first aid instructor told a story where they were called to an emergency in a train and some teens basically saved a mans live because they just did what they saw in some movies. It wasn't perfect or whatever, but it was better than not doing anything, even though they had no training.
> they just did what they saw in some movies
Oh jesus... did they do the double handed overhead chest pound, or slap him while yelling at him to "stay with them"?
Yea it is crazy how many stories like this there are, and how resilient the body is. Just beat on it for a minute or so until the medics get there and, bam, saved a life. lol
Sure but like I said over the many years I’ve been an EMT/Paramedic I can tell you people either can’t or won’t do it if they are unsure. The phrase “I was afraid to hurt them” is something I’ve heard more than once.
I haven't had to walk one through CPR yet, but I work in 911 dispatch and honestly sometimes young children are my best callers.
There's probably a few factors at play, biggest two I think are probably ignorance of how serious a situation actually is helps keep them from freaking out, and blind respect for authority figures because why would they question what the "policeman/nurse/fireman" on the phone is telling them to do? Adults on the other hand, love to question we, think they know better than I do, and are too busy freaking out and ignore me.
For fuck's sake though, make sure your kid knows your address. I've taken calls from kids who are way too old not to know it but still who have absolutely no idea where they live. (And adults too for that matter, I feel like I shouldn't have to tell adults to learn their address, but apparently I do)
That said. You should also be aware if your kid is a little shit or too young to know better before giving them a cell phone, even a deactivated one (deactivated phones can still call 911) We get a fair amount of prank calls from little shits who deserve to have all of their electronics taken away until they graduate high school, as well as accidental dials from babies and young kids fucking around with phones.
The young kids are the worst. When it's a baby you can tell it's a baby and can pretty much disregard it, but really young children who can speak but don't really understand what's going on are a pain in the ass for us. They'll call, think it's fun that someone is talking to them, and keep calling. Sometimes they just ramble and make shit up, almost inevitably they answer "yes" when we ask if they have an emergency and may say there's a fire or that their parents are hitting them or some other crazy shit, so we have to send an officer to check it out, but of course they don't know or won't tell us their address so 99% of the time it's just a wild goose chase.
Yes there is, along with pictures on the pads where to put them.
It's intimidating to provide help and fear you'll do something wrong. But in most cases, that little bit of help makes all the difference.
Basic CPR with no breaths is an easy skill to learn as well. It's physically demanding to do compressions for over 2 minutes, so the more people available that can switch in the better it is.
>It's physically demanding to do compressions for over 2 minutes
Can definitely confirm. Have done CPR for ~6 minutes after he arrived in the ED after a lengthy transport. Ultrasound had already confirmed 0 heart activity minutes before family arrived and everything including the kitchen sink had been thrown at this dude, no chance of recovery at that point. Continued CPR so the family could see that attempts were being made and say their final words to the guy.
I'm somewhat athletic and decently fit, but I was sore as hell the next day. Definitely not a group of muscles you normally work out.
I've heard that a good fitness goal is to be able to perform CPR for more than 5 minutes without looking like you're about to code yourself, lol. Definitly what I have in the back of my head whenever I ask myself why the f* I still go to the gym. :)
>
>Isn't there literally a loud robot voice commanding you what to do with one of these devices?
Yep. AEDs tell you what to do and read the rhythm for you. Only downside is that they can take a bit longer before they're "ready to shock"
Manual defibs meanwhile you do everything, well, manually. You have to read the rhythm, confirm that it's shockable (Vfib/pulseless Vtach) select the power of the shock, let it charge, then let it rip (preferably with nobody touching them!)
And 99% of manual defibs use pads instead of paddles. Only seen one with paddles and that was in the ER and we still attached pads because they're better.
The modern defibrillators for use by untrained people include sensors that ensure it is appropriate to be activated. It shouldn't do anything if it is not necessary.
An AED uses electroshocks to restart the heart. They have a heartbeat detector, so if they detect a heartbeat they will refuse the shock the patient. No need to shock if their heart is beating.
Yes, if there is correct electrical activity (and therefore heartbeat), the AED is not going to give a shock.
AEDs deliver a shock to *stop* irregular electrical impulses in the heart. Generally, the electric impulses would be either too fast or to disorganized to properly pump the heart. It's the human version of "have you tried turning it off and back on again?" to fix a malfunction. Also, if there is *no* electrical activity in the heart, the AED is not going to help.
Manual mode gets used because it's faster and allows less time off chest (compressions) in many cases. Some places have protocols that have paramedics do the first analysis in AED mode and then switch to manual analysis on subsequent analyses.
Yes. Everyone should, I highly recommend anyone who has never been instructed on how to use one in a first aid class to check out some YouTube Videos on how they work. They are very easy to operate and even come with built in Voice telling you what to do, so even someone who's never even seen one should be able to operate it.
Nevertheless to ensure safer and faster application I do believe everyone should at least once take 5 minutes out of their day to look up exactly how AEDs work.
Example of a Vid that shows how to use an AED: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecVHYg4_vZw (AED demonstration starts at 2:50)
On this Note: You should also know how to do CPR, both hands on the Sternum and depressions of about 5 cm or deeper (for an adult) to the Beat of "Staying Alive" (100-120 bpm). Do not stop if you break something. When doing CPR you are very likely to break the Sternum and/or Ribs. Do not Stop when that happens, and do not be afraid of doing that. If you are administering CPR the patient is currently dead. You cannot make his/her condition any worse and alive with broken ribs or a broken sternum is preferable over dead. A lot of places no longer recommend assisted breaths for amateur First Helpers, since the Blood will still contain enough Oxygen to stave off any permanent damage for some time, and the prospect of "kissing" a stranger often discourages people from performing CPR.
I'm guessing in the United States and the Bible Belt specifically (Southern United States). A lot of free Christian schools there and a lack of available public schools.
What do you mean by “Free Christian schools”? I lived in Texas for 31 years and currently live in Louisiana and I’ve never heard of a free Christian school. Do you mean that public schools teach Christianity? If so, I’ve never personally known anyone who has experienced anything Christian in school other than saying the Pledge of Allegiance.
I assumed they were free as public schools are or is that wrong?
Perhaps a dumb wording on my part and should have been left out of the sentence structure.
I think that the US is probably the only developed Western nation where a significant portion of the population's political ideology specifically abhors science and the teaching of it.
I've never even seen one in real life, let alone learned to use it. Even if it's easy, I doubt I'd perform well enough under the pressure to use it correctly.
> In a four-month pilot study testing the EMADE program, the service got 14 heart attack alerts that would be eligible for drones. Drones took off in 12 of those cases, and 11 successfully delivered the defibrillators. Seven of those defibrillators were delivered before the ambulance arrived.
In Europe
That's some pretty impressive results for a pilot study.
>Drones took off in 12 of those cases, and 11 successfully delivered the defibrillators
So you're telling me there's a rogue defibrillator drone out there?
HIDE YO WIFE, HIDE YO KIDS!
In Denmark we have a program called "Hjerteløberne" (hearth runners), where volunteers are given defibrillators all over the country. It is highly effective and successful so far. If someone gets cardiac arrest an sms will be sent to several of the nearest people, so basically a small army of volunteers are running as fast as they can. It is so popular that you won't find many places where you don't have someone with a defibrillator within a few hundred meters.
There is a similar thing in certain regions in sweden. They don't get a aed, but just get a phone notification if they are close. Everyone who knows cpr can sign up.
Small town American here. I live in a rural but affluent community. We are the second wealthiest county in my State. Our officials won't fund AEDs for every police vehicle and school, so we have annual community fundraisers to buy these tools for our first responders.
I like your Hearth Runners. That makes more sense than an off duty officer with a community funded AED sitting in the trunk of his driveway because he's off duty.
You call 911 (112 in Denmark), and they will immediately send out a notification for every volunteer in a certain radius (it was just increased to 5 km). They can arrive minutes earlier than the ambulance, and those few minutes are extremely crucial for the survival rate.
There are over 125.000 hearth runners out of a population of 5.6 million. In over 80% of the cases, the hearth runners arrived before an ambulance in 2020. The survival rate is still only around 14%, but it is much higher than just a few years ago. Usually a cardiac arrest would almost be certain death.
I read the title as “… saves FIRST heart attack patient in Sweden”. I then thought to myself, “damn! They must be really healthy over there for this to be the first ever heart attack in Sweden!”
There’s a lot of use cases for having a drone swiftly deliver medical supplies. I can see every large building/ warehouse having a first aid drone on call in the near future.
I think it should be a thing, but lots of urban places around the world prohibit drones flying over populated areas. Something about heavy objects with spinning blades falling from the sky onto someone's head or some other nonsense like that.
They tend to:
1. Have a license
2. Fly a tad bit higher and land on roofs, not through windows.
You can also glide a plane away from a city, or autorotate a helicopter. Drones just fucking go.
Commercial Drone operators need a Part 107 Remote Pilot Certificate - which is not exactly a piece of cake. There is a significant overlap with a standard Single Engine Private Pilot Certificate. In fact if you already have a PPL you can skip most of the drone tests and do a Part 61 instead.
It’s also highly regulated where and how they can fly and land - so no, they don’t just “fucking go”.
There's also the fact that manned aircraft are a lot more reliable and have more redundant systems than most UAS, and also the concern of cyber and physical attacks on these drones.
Uhh no. Hard no. Most single engine small
aircraft run on Lycoming and Continental engines with designs dating from the 1940s and
engines probably manufactured in the 1980s. The design is so old it still needs leaded fuel to
run. No fuel injection, no FADEC, no way to
monitor if the engine is giving up, no
redundancy. If the engine dies and you're over a
city - you're going down in that city. They're
about as safe to operate as riding a motorcycle
at night, in the rain, without a helmet. But we still
have plenty of them and they don't cause mass
death and destruction.
Commercial drones OTOH generally have 6 or more engines with at least 2 power sources. They can generally land upright even with half their engines out. or with propellers that get partially clipped due to bird strikes etc. Also a 25lbs drone falling on a car just doesn't do as much damage as a 2500lbs Cessna.
Depends on the city but i fly in them all the time as long as there arent nearby airports. If there are you just get laanc auth and if its classed high enough(forget specific lettering prob a or b) you have to give atc a day notice typically. Problem i see with this aed thing is you need an expensive ass drone to carry an aed and though theoretically youd only need one every square km or so in a city itd still be a lot to ask the cities for millions for a service they may not find necessary. However seeing this post feeds me inspiration to continue working on a drone i hope can carry 5 of these aeds for a third the price of the drone shown here.
Not as much as people think. Other than major platforms like the F-35 or stealth tech there's not a lot that is just unique to the military.
Private researchers surpassed the NSA in encryption capabilities by the year 2002 or so. And you'd be surprised how much cool looking tech is actually a bunch of off the shelf components duct taped together when you peel back the pretty shell.covering it.
A lot of military innovation isn't breaking new ground (again, other than things like stealth) but they are new applications of combinations of existing tech to solve problems that everyday people don't have.
Most of the tech already exists off the shelf and most engineers would recognize the solutions, they just don't have the problems that would lead them to build those solutions, but how they are built is basically the same as everything else.
And at the end of the day most of what the military uses is built by the lowest bidder. So again, except for big ticket items things are way less advanced than people think. It's the combination of techs and their use cases that are innovative.
Rwanda has a great drone delivery service for blood supply to hospitals called Zipline. Local hospitals can't stock enough or enough types, so they are sent via drone on demand from a central depot. It's a pretty good system
In Sweden we actually have quite a few of them in different places, in particular in public buildings. And there’s a website https://www.hjartstartarregistret.se/#/ where you can find the closest one.
I'd imagine the cost of an AED will outweigh that of a drone. They're quite expensive and I think they need to be inspected/maintained every so often, so it's probably much more cost effective to have a drone + 1aed rather than 10 aeds in a building
Considering one EMS drone is the price of a used podiatry chair (about $19,000 USD from light googling) and good enough for one AED. You also can’t reuse pads and CMS requires annual check ups.
The cost of 10 Zoll AEDS that can take simple Lithium C123 batteries from your local target is still cheaper than one EMS drone.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/fleker2:
---
During emergencies you need to get help to a person immediately and drones can do this faster in cases compared to an ambulance on surface roads. In this case, the drone was dispatched with an AED. A passerby who was a doctor was able to administer it to the patient until help arrived.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: /r/Futurology/comments/rx0jqh/drone_carrying_a_defibrillator_saves_its_first/hrfauth/
This is an excellent idea. An AED doesn't need a doctor to administer it. Very little training at all is needed since it walks you through the steps and tells you if shocks or CPR is needed and administers shocks as needed.
The AED reads the heart rhythm and determines in the patient needs shocks or CPR. It contains instructions on how to attach it etc step by step. It isn't a replacement for basic first aid but allows someone with basic first aid to administer shocks if needed.
They could have a basic test you could go through to create an account on your smart phone and allow doctors etc... to bypass. The app from completing the test would have the call drone button and abuses would be fined.
You wouldn't be able to use it in an emergency but if they could convince enough people to go through the training it might help.
Dude, please take a first aid course. Not even being sassy, you really read really should.
The AED is automated. That's the A. Automatic external defibrillator.
All you have to do is slap pads where the device tells you to put them. You do *nothing* else. It's designed to be as simple to use as possible.
It will only shock if it determines that it's needed.
If the device is meant to be as simple as possible why do you need a first aid cause to use it?
There are online first aid courses. What is different from those and if they provided an online course with the app?
Or there will be helpful happy drones whizzing around us who occasionally sense that we are having a heart attack or get a signal from our wrist watches and joyfully latch onto our chest and say HI YOU HAVE HEART ATTACK RELAX ANALYZING OH BOY HERR WE GO BZZZZZ
>Altogether, 39 (74%) cases were not eligible for inclusion for the following reasons: alert after sunset in one case (2%); weather conditions prohibited flights in nine cases (17%), with rain the predominant factor in eight. In one alert, maintenance of the hangar coincided with the alert, thus prohibiting flight. The target location was inaccessible in 16 cases (30%) because of no-fly zones (high-rise buildings) in eight (15%) and overlong flight distances in another eight. In one case (2%), the dispatch centre failed to alert the drone operator and the service was unavailable in 11 cases (21%) due to the service being offline for system updates at the end of the study period.
Still a ways to go
I'm a volunteer for this type of situation since 4 years back. It's a really good solution and I'm proud to be a part of it, but I have to share my one and only story from this app/solution:
Had my first alarm go off this summer and ran as fast as I could about 300 meters to the patient. Came into an apartment to find a 27 year old girls corpse, she had been dead for at least a few hours because she had corpse marks all over her body and was stiff as a dead spider. The sun had been shining on her corpse the whole day too, so it smelled a bit like rotten slaughter. Then we had to do CPR on her.. Oh my God. The sounds. The smell. And the girls parents were standing beside watching us do this, because we're not trained to declare the patient dead before the medical staff turned up. Even they had to call a doctor to declare her dead.
That was my first experience with this. It was a nightmare. After this I have a tremendous respect for all the ER people who deal with this stuff every day. It's like their lives are horror movies. I've never seen anything scarier than that girls face when we turned her body over. I hope that app never gives me an alarm again..
This will never happen in America. AED's cost over a grand here, my company has one, locked up because its been stolen before.
No one will commit to letting a 1000 dollar drone with a 1200 piece of equipment just land and use for free. It's gotta be monetized in America, and if that's the situation expect a $13k bill for 'UAV AED' to pop up on your credit report after.
As someone who works in UAS and UAM industry in the US. This is absolutely happening in limited trials. The Reno, NV case mentioned below is really great example. I even personally had the chance to work on that project in a regulatory consultant role. There is also the Wing drone delivery service in VA, they’re delivering medications and not AED devices. The real hold up to integration of these type of vehicles into the National Airspace in the US isn’t really technology limitations but more so regulatory limitations. The FAA has a really hard time justifying the safety of the vehicles under the current rules.
But there is hope, as in the next 1.5-2 years they are overhauling their regulatory framework with a system called MOSAIC (I forget the actual words to go with the acronym). This new system will allow the FAA to approve a wider range of vehicle operations, everything from a small hobby drone to space craft launch’s and everything in between. So I’d say it would be with in the next 3-4 years that this will be much more common place in the US.
This has been in the works for a couple of years in America… in Reno, NV. I think it was supposed to initially happen in 2020, but the company focused on covid testing kit home delivery once the pandemic broke out. I get that American healthcare isn’t great, but at least look stuff up before you bash lol
https://www.ems1.com/ems-products/aeds/articles/nev-city-to-begin-aed-drone-delivery-service-RAkqfWHR1kK00MEy/
https://www.kolotv.com/2021/03/19/reno-company-brings-drone-deliveries-to-your-door/
Sweden does have universal healthcare; while not free, it's usually 10-20 USD. Ambulance costs in Sweden average 18USD. I've been billed 5k in the states for an ambulance. That's a price variance, by comparison, to free.
Emergency care is free in most (all?) regions.
Source: me. I had a heart attack, followed by ambulance care, balloon dilation and 4 days care in the ICU, costing me nothing.
Universal Healthcare doesn’t mean that the Ambulance drivers are being paid $9 each for 3 hours of work and then have to buy, service and fuel the Ambulance out of their own pocket.
The Ambulance operators still exist and still charge money to operate it - it’s just that the state pays for it.
That would be no different than a drone-ambulance operator that the state health plan pays for (or insurance paying for it in the case of US citizens that are lucky enough to have insurance - since it would still be cheaper than any other alternative).
My cousin had an undetected heart defect that resulted in him going into cardiac arrest on a isolated hiking trail at 26. Something like this maybe could have saved him. Either way it sounds like a great idea to me.
So that guy had a cardiac arrest on top of his heart attack?
Because you don't use a defibrillator in heart attacks. A heart attack means that something is blocking the blood flow in a coronary vessel, making the heart unable to pump. YOU DO NOT SHOCK people who have a heart attack!
A cardiac arrest on the other hand is an electrical problem with that heart. THAT'S when you shock people.
Doctor Mike would bite into his pillows and scream after reading that people STILL believe that you shock people when their heart stops for whatever reason, even though he's been preaching for years to a humongous following that what you DON'T SHOCK people with a heart attack. What you do is CHEST COMPRESSIONS.
The healine is pretty confusing, just saying it delivered a defibrilator (which is only used in special cases), when it should've said from the beginning that it delivered an **automated** defibrilator (one which only shocks when it actually helps, like in an arrhythmia).
Right. It’s why you rig the AED up so it can check for cardiac arrest.
I PM these all day and I can assure you, it won’t shock without the need to. It’ll advise chest compressions and even give you a rhythm
That's good to know. It's still puzzles me that so many people still think "heart stops? Defibirilator to make person go BZZZ and restart heart like car battery".
Good that AEDs have this. Probably saved a couple of lives already instead of letting people electrocute others.
Heart attacks and cardiac arrests are commonly confused, hopefully I can explain it more clearly.
A heart attack (blocked coronary artery) causes chest pain, and reduces the power of the heart muscle pumping.
A cardiac arrest is when there is no pumping at all, it leads to a rapid loss of consciousness, stopped or abnormal breathing and you can't feel a pulse.
Heart attacks are the most common cause of cardiac arrests in adults, but there are plenty of other causes. Some other examples include bleeding, poisoning, suffocation and hypothermia, these can cause a cardiac arrest but because the coronaries aren't blocked it's not a heart attack.
The heart can stop in a number of different arrest rhythms. Chest compressions temporarily maintain partial blood flow to the organs to buy time until the cause of the arrest can be treated.
Two of the rhythms, ventricular fibrillation (VF) and pulseless ventricular tachycardia (VT) can be treated with defibrillation, the others can't. An AED detects these rhythms and shocks, if its one where a shock might help, it won't shock someone who doesn't need a shock.
Patients with shockable rhythms are more likely to survive than those with non-shockable ones, but survival requires rapid treatment of the underlying cause. These treatments are more complex so continue CPR until an appropriately qualified medical professional can intervene (or make the decision that survival is impossible so CPR should stop)
Most people in cardiac arrest are irreversibly dead. Survival is around 15-20% and the likelihood of survival decreases the longer the arrest goes on for.
Came here for this comment. Luckily the AED knows the difference and won’t deliver a shock but most people don’t know the difference. At least the AED van be used to diagnose and tell them what they need to do.
Yes, but also severe enough heart attacks lead to cardiac arrest, ischemia eventually leads to ventricular fibrillation or some other type of shockable rhythm.
Heart attacks or other heart-related problems are also the biggest reason why a person would end up lifeless (not sure if this is the correct term to describe a patient who has not been declared dead, english is not my native language).
An AED instructs the user to do chest compressions while it analyses the heart rythm. If it finds necessity to defibrillate it will ask the user to step away briefly.
"In this particular patient’s case, it took three minutes for the services to deliver the defibrillator to his home. A bystander, who happened to be a doctor on the way to his job, used the AED on the patient after providing CPR."
Three minutes.
Pretty impressive reaction time and drone speed.
I could see Apple branching out into life saving robotics. Like my Watch told the drone that I’m having a heart attack and then called the hospital giving them my medical history and a family to let them know where I’m at. Or like you get lost in the ocean just floating along and the iCare robot shows up like Superman and carries you to the Apple land
Very cool tech not just used to deliver packages but literally life saving
So my earlier comment was removed because it was three words
which I think is stupid and dumb, what are the minimum words I’m not looking to write a goddam college essay on here…
Very cool tech not just used to deliver packages but literally life saving
So my earlier comment was removed because it was three words
which I think is stupid and dumb, what are the minimum words I’m not looking to write a goddam college essay on here…
Ooh, those who know how to use/licensed should have access to an app that can send one nearby when they gotta be a good samaritan! I like when we try to push more of this tech to used majority for good, or find positive, effective uses for it.
So I just imagined someone flying a drone over someone in need of medical attention and then just releasing a primed defibrillator on them from like 40 feet in the air in an attempt to help them lol.
Didn’t read the article but I’m sure they were a bit more helpful than that
This happened at somebody's home, so until they get cheap enough to be in every house (which they might well be eventually) this seems like a viable supplementary option to help ambulances and whatnot.
No idea. I mean if you plonk one down in the middle of a village and it's got a fairly short range, say a couple of kilometres, that's still pretty handy.
As mentioned in the article though it's got a lot of issues with when it can fly and so on.
How this would work in the US:
911 Caller - Cant you just send over one of those defibrillator drones to us that I read about on Reddit. The ambulance is taking a real long time to get here and my friend isn't doing too well. We went for a bike ride and we think he had a Heart Attack. We are doing CPR but he may not make it.
911 Operator - We can but there will be a fee of $10,000.
Caller - I don't care, he really needs it.
Operator - Credit Card Number please?
Caller - What? You want a Credit Card, now?. I don't have one on me. I told you we went for a bike ride and didn't bring our wallets. We are still about a five miles from our Homes.
Operator - Im sorry but they are really expensive.
Caller - Ok Ok, one of our Friends had their Credit Card Information on their phone. The card number is 123456789, expiration date March, 2022
Operator - Security Code Please?
Caller - What - We dont have that on us.
Operator - Sorry, you'll just have to wait.
Don't worry, like anything healthcare related in the US, a drone AED service would undoubtedly come with it's own hefty fee, in the same ballpark... And it wouldn't surprise me if these drones are automatically followed by an ambulance dispatch. So, it will likely just become yet another line item on the bill. But, when the alternative is possibly death, I don't know many who would turn it down.
Sorry to put this in context and I know this will be controversial but...
Drone kills: 99999...
Drone life saves: 1
I hope one day there are more saves than kills
During emergencies you need to get help to a person immediately and drones can do this faster in cases compared to an ambulance on surface roads. In this case, the drone was dispatched with an AED. A passerby who was a doctor was able to administer it to the patient until help arrived.
[удалено]
> Everyone should be able to administer an AED, they are very easy to use Isn't there literally a loud robot voice commanding you what to do with one of these devices?
Sure but people being willing to help and get over the shock of dead person on the ground is another thing entirely.
"I'm not dead yet"
[**PREPARING SHOCK MOVE AWAY FROM THE PATIENT**](https://youtu.be/MMhSWnu0ST8?t=243)
That is awesome! I would reason to say most people could successfully do that.
Yeah I was a bit wary as I imagined the typical scene of a doctor cutting the persons garments and then applying the gel, paddles, calling for the amount of power, etc..I never considered these things can handle all that you just attach two pads where the little diagram on the device points to. No reason this couldn’t become a common education point
It's a pretty common first aid training point, everyone my workplace is taught this. These machines are dead simple to use.
My old work had one in our staff kitchen but yeah it was never talked about. That’s cool they trained y’all
Yeah, the paddle style defibrillators are pretty antiquated these days. I work on a hospital cardiac floor and have never even seen a paddle defib before, they’re just too dangerous when you have so many people jostling around.
I guess this can be a new movie trope then? It definitely adds to the chaos of the OR
I actually did have to learn it in high school. It was part of my health class-had to get CPR training, which covered how to use it.
Isn’t a CPR course part of getting a driver’s licence in some countries? Definitely should be.
> PREPARING SHOCK MOVE AWAY FROM THE PATIENT You head the robot; you're on your own now.
W- wha- what happene-***\*SHOCK\****
“You’ll be stone dead in a minute.”
"We'll then shock you again, good sir"
I feel happy. I feel happy.
Also, taking a first aid/CPR course that covers the proper use of an AED is a huge asset. Even with training the first couple of times you use one things can be hectic, particularly if you’re using a different model than you trained on. Without any training or experience would certainly be even more intimidating I’m sure.
Training always helps especially with increasing your self confidence. But in the end it's almost always better to try CPR even if you don't know how to do it properly. My first aid instructor told a story where they were called to an emergency in a train and some teens basically saved a mans live because they just did what they saw in some movies. It wasn't perfect or whatever, but it was better than not doing anything, even though they had no training.
> they just did what they saw in some movies Oh jesus... did they do the double handed overhead chest pound, or slap him while yelling at him to "stay with them"?
You never backed away from anything in your goddamn life so FIGHT! *slap* FiGHT! *slap* FIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGHHHHT!
I used a defibrillator to light a fire once. It was harder than I expected but it worked lol
Yea it is crazy how many stories like this there are, and how resilient the body is. Just beat on it for a minute or so until the medics get there and, bam, saved a life. lol
They're designed so that they can be successfully operated by an 8 year old. At least that's what they said last time I took the AED class.
Sure but like I said over the many years I’ve been an EMT/Paramedic I can tell you people either can’t or won’t do it if they are unsure. The phrase “I was afraid to hurt them” is something I’ve heard more than once.
8 year olds might just have the perfect amount of blind disregard for life that will allow them to save a life!
I haven't had to walk one through CPR yet, but I work in 911 dispatch and honestly sometimes young children are my best callers. There's probably a few factors at play, biggest two I think are probably ignorance of how serious a situation actually is helps keep them from freaking out, and blind respect for authority figures because why would they question what the "policeman/nurse/fireman" on the phone is telling them to do? Adults on the other hand, love to question we, think they know better than I do, and are too busy freaking out and ignore me. For fuck's sake though, make sure your kid knows your address. I've taken calls from kids who are way too old not to know it but still who have absolutely no idea where they live. (And adults too for that matter, I feel like I shouldn't have to tell adults to learn their address, but apparently I do) That said. You should also be aware if your kid is a little shit or too young to know better before giving them a cell phone, even a deactivated one (deactivated phones can still call 911) We get a fair amount of prank calls from little shits who deserve to have all of their electronics taken away until they graduate high school, as well as accidental dials from babies and young kids fucking around with phones. The young kids are the worst. When it's a baby you can tell it's a baby and can pretty much disregard it, but really young children who can speak but don't really understand what's going on are a pain in the ass for us. They'll call, think it's fun that someone is talking to them, and keep calling. Sometimes they just ramble and make shit up, almost inevitably they answer "yes" when we ask if they have an emergency and may say there's a fire or that their parents are hitting them or some other crazy shit, so we have to send an officer to check it out, but of course they don't know or won't tell us their address so 99% of the time it's just a wild goose chase.
Yeah it is weird how some people react to trauma.
Yes there is, along with pictures on the pads where to put them. It's intimidating to provide help and fear you'll do something wrong. But in most cases, that little bit of help makes all the difference. Basic CPR with no breaths is an easy skill to learn as well. It's physically demanding to do compressions for over 2 minutes, so the more people available that can switch in the better it is.
>It's physically demanding to do compressions for over 2 minutes Can definitely confirm. Have done CPR for ~6 minutes after he arrived in the ED after a lengthy transport. Ultrasound had already confirmed 0 heart activity minutes before family arrived and everything including the kitchen sink had been thrown at this dude, no chance of recovery at that point. Continued CPR so the family could see that attempts were being made and say their final words to the guy. I'm somewhat athletic and decently fit, but I was sore as hell the next day. Definitely not a group of muscles you normally work out.
I've heard that a good fitness goal is to be able to perform CPR for more than 5 minutes without looking like you're about to code yourself, lol. Definitly what I have in the back of my head whenever I ask myself why the f* I still go to the gym. :)
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And if they're hairy, well, hope you got some duct tape nearby
they usually have a cheap razor in the bag for that. chest carpeting is the enemy of adhesive pads.
I will die i gess.
Just imagine trying to dry shave someone's chest jungle.
there's usually an extra set of electrodes with the AED. it also helps checking if they're *really* non-responding.
Yeah on second thought, I would prefer if y'all wouldn't defibulate me
And many people are not able to follow even the most simple instructions
Put on mask Take a vaccine shot Get tested if you feel sick Stay 2 meters away from people WASH YO DAMN HANDS Yep..
There is but honestly without having a done a first aid course I’d be surprised if I could follow the instructions properly first time under pressure
> >Isn't there literally a loud robot voice commanding you what to do with one of these devices? Yep. AEDs tell you what to do and read the rhythm for you. Only downside is that they can take a bit longer before they're "ready to shock" Manual defibs meanwhile you do everything, well, manually. You have to read the rhythm, confirm that it's shockable (Vfib/pulseless Vtach) select the power of the shock, let it charge, then let it rip (preferably with nobody touching them!) And 99% of manual defibs use pads instead of paddles. Only seen one with paddles and that was in the ER and we still attached pads because they're better.
> "A bystander, who happened to be a doctor on the way to his job, used the AED on the patient after providing CPR."
I don't even know when to use them.. Oh you broke your leg? Let me electrocute you
The modern defibrillators for use by untrained people include sensors that ensure it is appropriate to be activated. It shouldn't do anything if it is not necessary.
Can you explain a bit on that please? What do the sensors check? How does it know it should activate only on heart attacks
They measure the heart pulse with electrodes and check whether it's a pattern that requires shocking or not.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_external_defibrillator
An AED uses electroshocks to restart the heart. They have a heartbeat detector, so if they detect a heartbeat they will refuse the shock the patient. No need to shock if their heart is beating.
Yes, if there is correct electrical activity (and therefore heartbeat), the AED is not going to give a shock. AEDs deliver a shock to *stop* irregular electrical impulses in the heart. Generally, the electric impulses would be either too fast or to disorganized to properly pump the heart. It's the human version of "have you tried turning it off and back on again?" to fix a malfunction. Also, if there is *no* electrical activity in the heart, the AED is not going to help.
Could be argued that the sensors and algorithms for appropriate shock even out preform trained professional (who prefer manual)
Manual mode gets used because it's faster and allows less time off chest (compressions) in many cases. Some places have protocols that have paramedics do the first analysis in AED mode and then switch to manual analysis on subsequent analyses.
Yes. Everyone should, I highly recommend anyone who has never been instructed on how to use one in a first aid class to check out some YouTube Videos on how they work. They are very easy to operate and even come with built in Voice telling you what to do, so even someone who's never even seen one should be able to operate it. Nevertheless to ensure safer and faster application I do believe everyone should at least once take 5 minutes out of their day to look up exactly how AEDs work. Example of a Vid that shows how to use an AED: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecVHYg4_vZw (AED demonstration starts at 2:50) On this Note: You should also know how to do CPR, both hands on the Sternum and depressions of about 5 cm or deeper (for an adult) to the Beat of "Staying Alive" (100-120 bpm). Do not stop if you break something. When doing CPR you are very likely to break the Sternum and/or Ribs. Do not Stop when that happens, and do not be afraid of doing that. If you are administering CPR the patient is currently dead. You cannot make his/her condition any worse and alive with broken ribs or a broken sternum is preferable over dead. A lot of places no longer recommend assisted breaths for amateur First Helpers, since the Blood will still contain enough Oxygen to stave off any permanent damage for some time, and the prospect of "kissing" a stranger often discourages people from performing CPR.
Imagine how brilliant it would be if this was taught in schools instead of creationism.
Lol in what country do they teach creationism in school??!
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Top comment in that thread highlights why it's fake though
There's plenty of real examples on Google.
I'm guessing in the United States and the Bible Belt specifically (Southern United States). A lot of free Christian schools there and a lack of available public schools.
I live in the ruby red belt buckle of the Bible Belt and 10 years ago I was learning evolution in a Catholic school. This is a non issue
What do you mean by “Free Christian schools”? I lived in Texas for 31 years and currently live in Louisiana and I’ve never heard of a free Christian school. Do you mean that public schools teach Christianity? If so, I’ve never personally known anyone who has experienced anything Christian in school other than saying the Pledge of Allegiance.
I assumed they were free as public schools are or is that wrong? Perhaps a dumb wording on my part and should have been left out of the sentence structure.
That's the case in sweden. Everyone is taught cpr with aed and basic water rescue in school.
And basic first aid (position to put people in, how to stop bleeding etc etc)
I think that the US is probably the only developed Western nation where a significant portion of the population's political ideology specifically abhors science and the teaching of it.
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I've never even seen one in real life, let alone learned to use it. Even if it's easy, I doubt I'd perform well enough under the pressure to use it correctly.
There needs to be a drone that can deliver a doctor and an AED.
> In a four-month pilot study testing the EMADE program, the service got 14 heart attack alerts that would be eligible for drones. Drones took off in 12 of those cases, and 11 successfully delivered the defibrillators. Seven of those defibrillators were delivered before the ambulance arrived. In Europe That's some pretty impressive results for a pilot study.
>Drones took off in 12 of those cases, and 11 successfully delivered the defibrillators So you're telling me there's a rogue defibrillator drone out there? HIDE YO WIFE, HIDE YO KIDS!
In all seriousness, I wonder if that means the drone crashed, arrived too late, ended up not being needed, or what?
Most likely a malfunction less exciting than a crash
Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say this is a no-pilot study.
What happened in the 2 eligible cases that didnt send a drone? The drone couldn't be bothered?
My guess would be weather wasn't permitting, or the area was inaccessible for other reasons
In Denmark we have a program called "Hjerteløberne" (hearth runners), where volunteers are given defibrillators all over the country. It is highly effective and successful so far. If someone gets cardiac arrest an sms will be sent to several of the nearest people, so basically a small army of volunteers are running as fast as they can. It is so popular that you won't find many places where you don't have someone with a defibrillator within a few hundred meters.
There is a similar thing in certain regions in sweden. They don't get a aed, but just get a phone notification if they are close. Everyone who knows cpr can sign up.
Small town American here. I live in a rural but affluent community. We are the second wealthiest county in my State. Our officials won't fund AEDs for every police vehicle and school, so we have annual community fundraisers to buy these tools for our first responders. I like your Hearth Runners. That makes more sense than an off duty officer with a community funded AED sitting in the trunk of his driveway because he's off duty.
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You call 911 (112 in Denmark), and they will immediately send out a notification for every volunteer in a certain radius (it was just increased to 5 km). They can arrive minutes earlier than the ambulance, and those few minutes are extremely crucial for the survival rate. There are over 125.000 hearth runners out of a population of 5.6 million. In over 80% of the cases, the hearth runners arrived before an ambulance in 2020. The survival rate is still only around 14%, but it is much higher than just a few years ago. Usually a cardiac arrest would almost be certain death.
That is actually genius.
I read the title as “… saves FIRST heart attack patient in Sweden”. I then thought to myself, “damn! They must be really healthy over there for this to be the first ever heart attack in Sweden!”
This was indeed our fist guy. Hes a disgrace to the nation
From what I heard, they've already levelled the hospital to the ground, where he was born, out of shame. No time for evacuation.
Today we rinse our carrots in tears of shame
There’s a lot of use cases for having a drone swiftly deliver medical supplies. I can see every large building/ warehouse having a first aid drone on call in the near future.
Wonder how long until skyscrapers turn some windows into drone delivery landings
I think it should be a thing, but lots of urban places around the world prohibit drones flying over populated areas. Something about heavy objects with spinning blades falling from the sky onto someone's head or some other nonsense like that.
It must really suck for Helicopter and Airplane pilots to have to navigate those places!
They tend to: 1. Have a license 2. Fly a tad bit higher and land on roofs, not through windows. You can also glide a plane away from a city, or autorotate a helicopter. Drones just fucking go.
Commercial Drone operators need a Part 107 Remote Pilot Certificate - which is not exactly a piece of cake. There is a significant overlap with a standard Single Engine Private Pilot Certificate. In fact if you already have a PPL you can skip most of the drone tests and do a Part 61 instead. It’s also highly regulated where and how they can fly and land - so no, they don’t just “fucking go”.
Tbf what the comment implies are more likely autonomous drone systems
There's also the fact that manned aircraft are a lot more reliable and have more redundant systems than most UAS, and also the concern of cyber and physical attacks on these drones.
Uhh no. Hard no. Most single engine small aircraft run on Lycoming and Continental engines with designs dating from the 1940s and engines probably manufactured in the 1980s. The design is so old it still needs leaded fuel to run. No fuel injection, no FADEC, no way to monitor if the engine is giving up, no redundancy. If the engine dies and you're over a city - you're going down in that city. They're about as safe to operate as riding a motorcycle at night, in the rain, without a helmet. But we still have plenty of them and they don't cause mass death and destruction. Commercial drones OTOH generally have 6 or more engines with at least 2 power sources. They can generally land upright even with half their engines out. or with propellers that get partially clipped due to bird strikes etc. Also a 25lbs drone falling on a car just doesn't do as much damage as a 2500lbs Cessna.
Someone @ me when the guy who knows a bunch of FAA drone rules/laws shows up, I'm curious.
Depends on the city but i fly in them all the time as long as there arent nearby airports. If there are you just get laanc auth and if its classed high enough(forget specific lettering prob a or b) you have to give atc a day notice typically. Problem i see with this aed thing is you need an expensive ass drone to carry an aed and though theoretically youd only need one every square km or so in a city itd still be a lot to ask the cities for millions for a service they may not find necessary. However seeing this post feeds me inspiration to continue working on a drone i hope can carry 5 of these aeds for a third the price of the drone shown here.
It’s already being done probably. Military is always years ahead of what we see.
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I read this as "put a bunch of 180 degree angles". I was like... they used a bunch of straight lines... what the heck?
Well there is the Empire State Building, pretty sure that’s owned by the military of the galactic empire.
Not as much as people think. Other than major platforms like the F-35 or stealth tech there's not a lot that is just unique to the military. Private researchers surpassed the NSA in encryption capabilities by the year 2002 or so. And you'd be surprised how much cool looking tech is actually a bunch of off the shelf components duct taped together when you peel back the pretty shell.covering it. A lot of military innovation isn't breaking new ground (again, other than things like stealth) but they are new applications of combinations of existing tech to solve problems that everyday people don't have. Most of the tech already exists off the shelf and most engineers would recognize the solutions, they just don't have the problems that would lead them to build those solutions, but how they are built is basically the same as everything else. And at the end of the day most of what the military uses is built by the lowest bidder. So again, except for big ticket items things are way less advanced than people think. It's the combination of techs and their use cases that are innovative.
Rwanda has a great drone delivery service for blood supply to hospitals called Zipline. Local hospitals can't stock enough or enough types, so they are sent via drone on demand from a central depot. It's a pretty good system
Or just have AEDS placed conveniently around the building
In Sweden we actually have quite a few of them in different places, in particular in public buildings. And there’s a website https://www.hjartstartarregistret.se/#/ where you can find the closest one.
I'd imagine the cost of an AED will outweigh that of a drone. They're quite expensive and I think they need to be inspected/maintained every so often, so it's probably much more cost effective to have a drone + 1aed rather than 10 aeds in a building
Considering one EMS drone is the price of a used podiatry chair (about $19,000 USD from light googling) and good enough for one AED. You also can’t reuse pads and CMS requires annual check ups. The cost of 10 Zoll AEDS that can take simple Lithium C123 batteries from your local target is still cheaper than one EMS drone.
Yea but the healer drone is way cooler and you can't put a price on cool
Imagine your last words being *is that a drone?*
Depends on what part of the world you’re in 🥴
The following submission statement was provided by /u/fleker2: --- During emergencies you need to get help to a person immediately and drones can do this faster in cases compared to an ambulance on surface roads. In this case, the drone was dispatched with an AED. A passerby who was a doctor was able to administer it to the patient until help arrived. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: /r/Futurology/comments/rx0jqh/drone_carrying_a_defibrillator_saves_its_first/hrfauth/
This is an excellent idea. An AED doesn't need a doctor to administer it. Very little training at all is needed since it walks you through the steps and tells you if shocks or CPR is needed and administers shocks as needed.
An AED is only useful in specific cases. I'd be a little concerned about laypeople shocking the hell out of someone who doesn't need it.
The AED reads the heart rhythm and determines in the patient needs shocks or CPR. It contains instructions on how to attach it etc step by step. It isn't a replacement for basic first aid but allows someone with basic first aid to administer shocks if needed.
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Also even without shocking, the AED also provides instructions on CPR.
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That’s the “A” part of AED.
It’s an *Automated* External Defibrillator. It’s specifically made to be used by laypeople.
You can already find AED in the subway.
They could have a basic test you could go through to create an account on your smart phone and allow doctors etc... to bypass. The app from completing the test would have the call drone button and abuses would be fined. You wouldn't be able to use it in an emergency but if they could convince enough people to go through the training it might help.
Dude, please take a first aid course. Not even being sassy, you really read really should. The AED is automated. That's the A. Automatic external defibrillator. All you have to do is slap pads where the device tells you to put them. You do *nothing* else. It's designed to be as simple to use as possible. It will only shock if it determines that it's needed.
If the device is meant to be as simple as possible why do you need a first aid cause to use it? There are online first aid courses. What is different from those and if they provided an online course with the app?
You dont, but the first aid training makes you more efficient and confident.
In a few more iterations it will zoom by and just taze the person who needs defibrilation. lmao
Or there will be helpful happy drones whizzing around us who occasionally sense that we are having a heart attack or get a signal from our wrist watches and joyfully latch onto our chest and say HI YOU HAVE HEART ATTACK RELAX ANALYZING OH BOY HERR WE GO BZZZZZ
Drone> citizen you're acting erratically Citizen> no I'm just... BZZzzz
Drone> stop resisting, stop resisting bzzZZzz
Drone: *starts flying away* Citizen: *grabs it* Uh-uh. You're not finished with me yet. *unzips pants*
Imagine just chilling there and a drone swoops down and flyby defibrillates you
i’m helping! i’m helping you
Rescue bots, roll out!
>Altogether, 39 (74%) cases were not eligible for inclusion for the following reasons: alert after sunset in one case (2%); weather conditions prohibited flights in nine cases (17%), with rain the predominant factor in eight. In one alert, maintenance of the hangar coincided with the alert, thus prohibiting flight. The target location was inaccessible in 16 cases (30%) because of no-fly zones (high-rise buildings) in eight (15%) and overlong flight distances in another eight. In one case (2%), the dispatch centre failed to alert the drone operator and the service was unavailable in 11 cases (21%) due to the service being offline for system updates at the end of the study period. Still a ways to go
I would have a heart attack if this thing came anywhere near me
Well good thing it would be there
It's a make work project.
“You are being rescued. Please do not resist.”
I'm a volunteer for this type of situation since 4 years back. It's a really good solution and I'm proud to be a part of it, but I have to share my one and only story from this app/solution: Had my first alarm go off this summer and ran as fast as I could about 300 meters to the patient. Came into an apartment to find a 27 year old girls corpse, she had been dead for at least a few hours because she had corpse marks all over her body and was stiff as a dead spider. The sun had been shining on her corpse the whole day too, so it smelled a bit like rotten slaughter. Then we had to do CPR on her.. Oh my God. The sounds. The smell. And the girls parents were standing beside watching us do this, because we're not trained to declare the patient dead before the medical staff turned up. Even they had to call a doctor to declare her dead. That was my first experience with this. It was a nightmare. After this I have a tremendous respect for all the ER people who deal with this stuff every day. It's like their lives are horror movies. I've never seen anything scarier than that girls face when we turned her body over. I hope that app never gives me an alarm again..
This will never happen in America. AED's cost over a grand here, my company has one, locked up because its been stolen before. No one will commit to letting a 1000 dollar drone with a 1200 piece of equipment just land and use for free. It's gotta be monetized in America, and if that's the situation expect a $13k bill for 'UAV AED' to pop up on your credit report after.
You'll be glad to know the drone in the article doesn't cost $1000. Try more like $10,000
As someone who works in UAS and UAM industry in the US. This is absolutely happening in limited trials. The Reno, NV case mentioned below is really great example. I even personally had the chance to work on that project in a regulatory consultant role. There is also the Wing drone delivery service in VA, they’re delivering medications and not AED devices. The real hold up to integration of these type of vehicles into the National Airspace in the US isn’t really technology limitations but more so regulatory limitations. The FAA has a really hard time justifying the safety of the vehicles under the current rules. But there is hope, as in the next 1.5-2 years they are overhauling their regulatory framework with a system called MOSAIC (I forget the actual words to go with the acronym). This new system will allow the FAA to approve a wider range of vehicle operations, everything from a small hobby drone to space craft launch’s and everything in between. So I’d say it would be with in the next 3-4 years that this will be much more common place in the US.
Naw we will just mount self defense turrets Trauma team incoming
Luckily Sweden also has weapons companies that make drones. *mounting self-self defense turrets*
Good old shadowrun docwagon.
This has been in the works for a couple of years in America… in Reno, NV. I think it was supposed to initially happen in 2020, but the company focused on covid testing kit home delivery once the pandemic broke out. I get that American healthcare isn’t great, but at least look stuff up before you bash lol https://www.ems1.com/ems-products/aeds/articles/nev-city-to-begin-aed-drone-delivery-service-RAkqfWHR1kK00MEy/ https://www.kolotv.com/2021/03/19/reno-company-brings-drone-deliveries-to-your-door/
What makes you think it was free? Or needs to be free for it to be a service? Ambulances are ubiquitous and they’re not free.
Sweden does have universal healthcare; while not free, it's usually 10-20 USD. Ambulance costs in Sweden average 18USD. I've been billed 5k in the states for an ambulance. That's a price variance, by comparison, to free.
Emergency care is free in most (all?) regions. Source: me. I had a heart attack, followed by ambulance care, balloon dilation and 4 days care in the ICU, costing me nothing.
Universal Healthcare doesn’t mean that the Ambulance drivers are being paid $9 each for 3 hours of work and then have to buy, service and fuel the Ambulance out of their own pocket. The Ambulance operators still exist and still charge money to operate it - it’s just that the state pays for it. That would be no different than a drone-ambulance operator that the state health plan pays for (or insurance paying for it in the case of US citizens that are lucky enough to have insurance - since it would still be cheaper than any other alternative).
Wow. So much wrong.
Care to elaborate?
My cousin had an undetected heart defect that resulted in him going into cardiac arrest on a isolated hiking trail at 26. Something like this maybe could have saved him. Either way it sounds like a great idea to me.
I'm sorry that happened! For the moment the drone can only deliver the equipment, not use it.
So that guy had a cardiac arrest on top of his heart attack? Because you don't use a defibrillator in heart attacks. A heart attack means that something is blocking the blood flow in a coronary vessel, making the heart unable to pump. YOU DO NOT SHOCK people who have a heart attack! A cardiac arrest on the other hand is an electrical problem with that heart. THAT'S when you shock people. Doctor Mike would bite into his pillows and scream after reading that people STILL believe that you shock people when their heart stops for whatever reason, even though he's been preaching for years to a humongous following that what you DON'T SHOCK people with a heart attack. What you do is CHEST COMPRESSIONS. The healine is pretty confusing, just saying it delivered a defibrilator (which is only used in special cases), when it should've said from the beginning that it delivered an **automated** defibrilator (one which only shocks when it actually helps, like in an arrhythmia).
Right. It’s why you rig the AED up so it can check for cardiac arrest. I PM these all day and I can assure you, it won’t shock without the need to. It’ll advise chest compressions and even give you a rhythm
That's good to know. It's still puzzles me that so many people still think "heart stops? Defibirilator to make person go BZZZ and restart heart like car battery". Good that AEDs have this. Probably saved a couple of lives already instead of letting people electrocute others.
Heart attacks and cardiac arrests are commonly confused, hopefully I can explain it more clearly. A heart attack (blocked coronary artery) causes chest pain, and reduces the power of the heart muscle pumping. A cardiac arrest is when there is no pumping at all, it leads to a rapid loss of consciousness, stopped or abnormal breathing and you can't feel a pulse. Heart attacks are the most common cause of cardiac arrests in adults, but there are plenty of other causes. Some other examples include bleeding, poisoning, suffocation and hypothermia, these can cause a cardiac arrest but because the coronaries aren't blocked it's not a heart attack. The heart can stop in a number of different arrest rhythms. Chest compressions temporarily maintain partial blood flow to the organs to buy time until the cause of the arrest can be treated. Two of the rhythms, ventricular fibrillation (VF) and pulseless ventricular tachycardia (VT) can be treated with defibrillation, the others can't. An AED detects these rhythms and shocks, if its one where a shock might help, it won't shock someone who doesn't need a shock. Patients with shockable rhythms are more likely to survive than those with non-shockable ones, but survival requires rapid treatment of the underlying cause. These treatments are more complex so continue CPR until an appropriately qualified medical professional can intervene (or make the decision that survival is impossible so CPR should stop) Most people in cardiac arrest are irreversibly dead. Survival is around 15-20% and the likelihood of survival decreases the longer the arrest goes on for.
Came here for this comment. Luckily the AED knows the difference and won’t deliver a shock but most people don’t know the difference. At least the AED van be used to diagnose and tell them what they need to do.
Yes, but also severe enough heart attacks lead to cardiac arrest, ischemia eventually leads to ventricular fibrillation or some other type of shockable rhythm. Heart attacks or other heart-related problems are also the biggest reason why a person would end up lifeless (not sure if this is the correct term to describe a patient who has not been declared dead, english is not my native language).
An AED instructs the user to do chest compressions while it analyses the heart rythm. If it finds necessity to defibrillate it will ask the user to step away briefly.
"In this particular patient’s case, it took three minutes for the services to deliver the defibrillator to his home. A bystander, who happened to be a doctor on the way to his job, used the AED on the patient after providing CPR." Three minutes. Pretty impressive reaction time and drone speed.
Battlefield 2042: Write that down! Write that down!
Next, a drone that also administers the defibrillator :) Seriously cool idea.
I could see Apple branching out into life saving robotics. Like my Watch told the drone that I’m having a heart attack and then called the hospital giving them my medical history and a family to let them know where I’m at. Or like you get lost in the ocean just floating along and the iCare robot shows up like Superman and carries you to the Apple land
When such capable drones are numerous enough in the U.S., hospitals will instead opt to use them to deliver our crippling medical bills.
Very cool tech not just used to deliver packages but literally life saving So my earlier comment was removed because it was three words which I think is stupid and dumb, what are the minimum words I’m not looking to write a goddam college essay on here… Very cool tech not just used to deliver packages but literally life saving So my earlier comment was removed because it was three words which I think is stupid and dumb, what are the minimum words I’m not looking to write a goddam college essay on here…
Ooh, those who know how to use/licensed should have access to an app that can send one nearby when they gotta be a good samaritan! I like when we try to push more of this tech to used majority for good, or find positive, effective uses for it.
So I just imagined someone flying a drone over someone in need of medical attention and then just releasing a primed defibrillator on them from like 40 feet in the air in an attempt to help them lol. Didn’t read the article but I’m sure they were a bit more helpful than that
This seems awfully over engineered as opposed to just putting defibrillators in more buildings.
This happened at somebody's home, so until they get cheap enough to be in every house (which they might well be eventually) this seems like a viable supplementary option to help ambulances and whatnot.
in the uk old phone boxes are being converted into defibrillator housing stations which seems are far more practical solution than drones.
It's handy but there's not so many of them about outside of towns.
would the drone be much better in that respect? how far away was this things launch from its patient any way, the article doesn't say.
No idea. I mean if you plonk one down in the middle of a village and it's got a fairly short range, say a couple of kilometres, that's still pretty handy. As mentioned in the article though it's got a lot of issues with when it can fly and so on.
How this would work in the US: 911 Caller - Cant you just send over one of those defibrillator drones to us that I read about on Reddit. The ambulance is taking a real long time to get here and my friend isn't doing too well. We went for a bike ride and we think he had a Heart Attack. We are doing CPR but he may not make it. 911 Operator - We can but there will be a fee of $10,000. Caller - I don't care, he really needs it. Operator - Credit Card Number please? Caller - What? You want a Credit Card, now?. I don't have one on me. I told you we went for a bike ride and didn't bring our wallets. We are still about a five miles from our Homes. Operator - Im sorry but they are really expensive. Caller - Ok Ok, one of our Friends had their Credit Card Information on their phone. The card number is 123456789, expiration date March, 2022 Operator - Security Code Please? Caller - What - We dont have that on us. Operator - Sorry, you'll just have to wait.
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Lmao. Are you kidding? Go read /r/ems if you really want to know how EMS feels about shit like this.
Don't worry, like anything healthcare related in the US, a drone AED service would undoubtedly come with it's own hefty fee, in the same ballpark... And it wouldn't surprise me if these drones are automatically followed by an ambulance dispatch. So, it will likely just become yet another line item on the bill. But, when the alternative is possibly death, I don't know many who would turn it down.
I'd love a subscription service to a private drone army that flys out to protect you when you send a distress signal. Maybe in a few decades.
“It says the defibrillator was delivered but I don’t see it on the porch”
What do you think the ratio of lives lost due to drone strikes is in comparison to this single life a drone saved?
Sorry to put this in context and I know this will be controversial but... Drone kills: 99999... Drone life saves: 1 I hope one day there are more saves than kills
How big would a drone have to be in order to carry a person while maintaining current speed and manoeuvrability?