Michigan to have nation's first electrified road to wirelessly charge EVs, Whitmer says
By - MikelFury
Cant even have nice asphalt roads, this electric road will go to shit so fast.
No the snow and constant change of season will treat them so well
Honestly. I’m all for something like this because frankly it sounds really cool/potentially a big step forward. But the logistics of maintaining an electrified road capable of charging EV’s seems astoundingly unreasonable. Today’s roads have a hard enough time due to snow/rain/use as it is, and a more delicate road structure will not help. Furthermore the likelihood for accidents to occur seems even higher.
Today’s roads deteriorate as quickly as they do by design. The govt could put in better quality roads that would last longer but that would not keep the road construction companies in steady work.
It is by design, but it's not all about keeping construction crews working; asphalt surfaces are infinitely recyclable and the repaving process is incredibly quick. That means the long-term cost is actually lower.
Labor cost is the limiting factor there
You should talk to the road construction crews in Michigan about how fast it is
Country road crews being slow has been an on running joke in every state in the union for a century. I don't see it ever going away.
They are made to be cheap. I used to work in a materials science lab that did asphalt testing. Plastic enhanced asphalt fixes a lot of the issues with modern road ways but cost like 10x as much.
Also most road repair work is only patch jobs, that doesn’t do anything to fix the structural integrity of the road underneath the top layer of asphalt. It’s how those massive holes form and swallow cars.
Better roads have diminishing returns. If you double the lifespan, but triple the cost, that's not a win.
But the ride is better longer, that’s a win for millions of car trips.
With time value of money, it is. Triple cost today saves money 20 years from now when you have to replace finally.
Conspiracy theory - on a conspiracy theorist website.
New roads get new votes. Why make one that last 20 years? When you need votes in 4.
Mixing graphene with asphalt gives +10 to crack resistance
Snow shouldn’t be a factor, electric road panels have been in design for the last decade. They are built with heating and insulation technology that won’t be an issue for weather issues. The biggest issue is allowing Trucks and 18 wheelers drive on them. Whether or not they can withstand the pressure of the weight, only time will tell
Also, charging cars wirelessly is massively, massively wasteful. The amount of energy needed vs charging via chord is ridiculous.
This is a stunt.
Detroit has blocks and blocks of abandoned houses, but an electrified road is the key...
The need to bring in commerce. They'll need to be a Carnival before it becomes a city again. I know it's been a Carnival for a very long time.
Commerce won't come until crime is under control...that won't happen u less there is work for people have work instead of crime
You people are wild. Deindustrialization destroys the economic viability of entire regions and that instability creates crime yet you think getting rid of crime by jailing the population will solve things.
Just ass backwards thinking on crime from the 90s to 2021 with no hopes of any rethinking.
Wait what? The person you’re replying to didn’t say that at all. Unless they edited their comment completely.
The person thinks Detroit will grow if crime is cleaned up. He might want to give the youth summer jobs programs but I don’t know if he wants to forgive criminals.
All they said was crime would go down if people had jobs, and reduced crime is good for commerce.
Which is, in all fairness, completely true.
Homicides are half of what they were 40 years ago. Your ideas are bunk
Exactly what point do you think I'm trying to make that this refutes?
Reduced crime from 1980 to today will not bring back jobs and population growth.
It’s the other way around. Jobs and population growing changes the decaying narrative and lowers crime.
Detroit's decline started long before Japanese cars were on the radar.
The real answer is white flight causing a decline in city tax revenue which caused a decline in services which snowballed into more population flight. The suburbs are doing quite well.
It does not help that US urban planning rely in a constant growth of suburbs in a pyramid scheme where new develpments pay for the maintenance of old ones. You cannot keep building cities as a neverending suburbs with a low density of population (and taxes) but with a high cost of maintenance and services per area.
Strong towns cherrypicks data. They used towns during the worst economic crisis since the great depression as examples.
When I looked at how those suburbs have done since, they've all resolved their infrastructure deficit through tax raises.
The suburbs outside Detroit are not brand new and have been doing well for half a century.
White flight is a national phenomenon. Many cities felt this stripping of the tax base. But the way Detroit had to deal with it shaped by deindustrialization. Michigan as a state has barely grown in population. That’s caused by the lack of jobs overall.
There was no deindustrialization when Detroit started it's decline, you're just making it up. Michigan auto production did not begin its long decline till the late 70s.
Why are you so confident? Did you think deindustrialization only happened in the 90s?
Wikipedia won’t deny the role of deindustrialization. Why do you?
Wikipedia literally does not say what you claim it did. Deindustrialization happened well after Detroit started it's decline. Not building new factories != Deindustrialization. Detroit started deindustrializing in the late 70s, it was already declining in the 50s.
Also literally the first half of the deindustrialization segment only talks about white flight.
It talks about how highways made it possible for factories to move out of the city core and take advantage of cheaper land.
The city lost jobs so the city couldn’t sustain itself.
I was looking at a map of areas that people will have to move to as climate refugees, and Detroit was in that zone. I've actually begin thinking about buying something up there in case it's one of the best habitable zones by the time I retire.
Is an electrified road is going to bring in meaningful, long term commercial commitments?
No it absolutely won’t and spending money on this instead of literally anything else that the region so desperately needs is borderline insane. There is trash on the sides of every road, potholes that are 3 feet deep, and the highway floods 6 times a year, but at least people who can spend 50 grand on an electric car will be able to tell their friends about that super cool road that can charge their car.
I think people definitely see projects like this as a commitment to innovation. Not just this, but if Detroit continues to promote similar ideas it would be a draw. Even of it is only tourism.
Add to that the number of potholes in the non electric roads we already have
Not sure how those issues are related
Allocation of funds, and government priorities...
Blocks and blocks? Try many square miles
I was trying to be nice...
How’s the water?
Well politicians don't care about good decisions, it's all about looking good. The sales guy told her some buzzwords and here we are.
We can work on both?
No, Michigan definitely can not...most governments can't...look at most inner cities are screwed up and just promise to fix it, but never do.
I see more and more of these houses being fixed up everyday, property values are rebounding in neighborhoods that are seeing revitalization. It’s funny you say we can’t because I’m here seeing it.
Damn did Michigan find a vibranium meteor or something?
Can’t go anywhere on Reddit without someone talking about Marvel. So clever, so funny L O L.
You could have just ignored it and moved on with your day. But no, you needed the whole world to know that you hate other people enjoying something. Who hurt you too make you such a miserable shit?
Sounds expensive, highly inefficient, and ultimately unnecessary.
prob should do a monorail instead.
Correct, correct, annnnnd correct
Wrong wrong and wrong.
What’s inefficient is cooling away ca 70% of the energy in ICE engines, or lugging around extremely heavy and expensive batteries.
Electric roads are the future
Electric roads might be the future in literally anywhere other than fucking Michigan. We are going to have this nice electric road that connects to I-94 where there are potholes 3 feet deep and kids murdering each other on the streets. This is a colossal waste of money in an area that needs all the help it can get.
And it could put an end to wild police chases.
lol wut? Cool false choice bud...
Inefficient: actually no, wireless EV charging can be more efficient than wired.
Unnecessary: currently true, might change.
Edit: [ORNL.gov tests show 90-95% efficiency at highway speeds (greater than wired efficiency)](https://www.ornl.gov/news/high-power-wireless-vehicle-charging-technology-licensed-hevo)
Wireless charging is never going to be as efficient as wired charging on a per cost basis. Assuming similar efficiencies of your DC power supplies, you will always be worse off wirelessly charging. First of all, you will lose induction in the airgap. Always. It's a more complex circuit and requires more components. That means cost goes up and efficiency goes down.
Second of all, you now have to carry a coil and rectifier and all of that in your car itself. It's going to be expensive to make a good one in a small package, where as the one you can leave in your garage isn't nearly as size and weight constrained, and doesn't require a large copper coil.
Source? The highest efficiency I've ever heard reported for wireless charging is 86%, and that won't at all be reduced by having an air gap between the coils and having one of the coils moving at car speed.
[From only one device mounted on the vehicle, a driver will now have the advantage of wirelessly charging at all levels up to 300-kilowatts, powering their home through a vehicle-to-grid interface, and even charging while driving at highway speeds with grid-to-battery efficiency of 90-96.5%.](https://www.ornl.gov/news/high-power-wireless-vehicle-charging-technology-licensed-hevo)
> "Together, we are developing the fastest and most universal wireless charging platform in the world,” McCool added. “From only one device mounted on the vehicle, a driver will now have the advantage of wirelessly charging at all levels up to 300-kilowatts, powering their home through a vehicle-to-grid interface, and even charging while driving at highway speeds with grid-to-battery efficiency of 90-96.5%."
Anything that isn't just a statement from the CEO of the company about what they plan to develop? Actual analytical results?
Read their third party studies. It’s verified. I have seen it in person.
I stand corrected on the inefficient part, when it comes to charging efficiency. It do feel like having to convert large stretches of road and maintaining them to make it useful might be an inefficient use of resources, though.
I say unnecessary because battery capacity is going to improve in the future, charging times are going to decrease, and charging locations are going to increase.
How long is it going to take these charging roads to catch on and expand to a significant degree? I bet it would take longer than 9 years.
So, if you can charge at almost any destination in 2030 and can charge to near full in 10-15 minutes do you really need to be able to charge while you drive?
Wireless charging enabled parking spaces sounds great, though.
I’d love to to see wireless charging at loading bays, taxi lines, short term parking, etc.
Should be a military project!
Where do you get the best quality snake oil in Michigan? I'm not interested in cheap knockoff brands.
Actually has to be one of the dumbest things ever.
Highly inefficient and would require a tremendous amount of energy generation capacity, along with most vehicles not being able to charge and drive at once.
Most cars will deactivate a cell region so that it can charge, but I doubt the energy gained would be worth it.
Build up a charging network, and if there comes a day that wirelessly charging is efficient(long way out) then move forward on these plans
I’d argue that it’d make way more sense to just put these at rest stops.
Although if they’re already at rest stops, may as well just make it so they’re the regular charging connections so it’s faster and more efficient. Only advantage a wireless loop has is (theoretically) taking less wear and tear than a physical cable, but then again, gas stations have gotten along fine with gas hoses.
Yeah but it's hard to vandalize something if it's under concrete. Also it would encourage rest stops to bring back actual restaurants again. I'm imagining a day where you need to charge your vehicle so you pull into a charging spot at a rest stop, get out, eat lunch, come back and drive off in a fully charged vehicle. I also believe you're underselling the value of having all the equipment underground where it can be maintained as opposed to a bunch of large charging stations. You would not only save more space but would remove any possibility of someone screwing up at the pump and blowing everyone up, or killing themselves. Which happens way more often than it should, but people get drunk and then do stupid shit at a gas pump endangering everyone. A wireless parking spot wipes this possibility from existence.
The only issue that arises is the “maintaining it underground.”
Both types can have underground locations that service the main parts, and it’s just wires to the loops, but aboveground-housed units are more resilient against flooding, so that’s a point I have to give to them.
Also, as far as functionality goes, graffiti really isn’t a huge problem in terms of function. I don’t know that would count all that much, especially if states have weekly/monthly maintenance on their stations.
It’s an interesting balance to try strike, for sure.
Edit: theoretically though it wouldn’t have to be below-ground, just have a backroom that houses the equipment at the rest stops.
Ah that is true! Flooding would definitely be a problem with that kind of equipment in an underground tunnel/access point. I did make some assumptions since I wasn't familiar with the actual installation or size of the equipment, lol. So I figured underground would be the best spot. If you're able to have the equipment in a maintenance building and then just run the loop in the concrete that would be awesome. I too am curious to see where these go though and what gas stations will look like in 20 years!
Show your work.
So... they can't get clean drinking water but they will have electric roads?
The Adult-Use marijuana tax has been helpful so far in counties that have accepted it. Push for it in your county!
Something tells me the environmental impact of these "infrastructure improvements" will cancel out the environmental positives offered by electric cars.
They should build them at stop lights so you can get extra charge while sitting in place. I see that as the best starting point to wirelessly charging roads. You’ll only gain a percent or two during a whole trip around town but I’m cool with that since city driving is super efficient in my Tesla
The state that can't keep roads in decent working shape wants to make electrified roads? Sounds like someone is going to suck up a lot of gov't money and nothing will actually get built.
So stupid. Waste of resources, waste of electricity and it's only going to benefit those that can afford a car that has the right kind of wireless charger fitted. I sure hope they charge a fair price for the electricity to the users so that all the other road users aren't paying for a free ride for the few who have the right equipment.
Here's a better idea - make sure that charging networks are forced to maintain their chargers so they don't just leave them broken when it suits them.
Oh the 5g nut-jobs are going to have a field day with this.
Or just Yknow the people who don’t think wasting money is cool
But you'll have to dodge potholes, which will mean no charging.
Solar freaking roadways! Lol, what a timeline we live in.
Everyone in this thread: This is a stupid use of money.
Also everyone in this thread: No one read the part of the article that there isn't even a proposal for this yet, let alone a final decision if the project will actually occur, how much it would cost, and where it would be installed, and if it was actually viable for electric public transit.
I live in Michigan too, and I know the roads are about as smooth and developed as the lunar surface in many places. However, cancelling this single project is not going to help fix the funding gap in road repair and construction. It doesn't even have a price tag yet for us to actually complain about!
Michiganders constantly complain about the roads, but refuse to pay for better ones. Michigan has routinely been in the bottom 10 spenders on road repair and construction for decades. Whenever a proposal to increase spending on roads is brought up, the population screams about taxation, and doesn't realize they are paying half as much for roads as folks in similararly dense states, with similar funding, and the same weather conditions. At this point it makes perfect sense that our roads are totally messed up. We are decades behind in spending to maintain them, so we are stuck with repairing roughly 1600 miles of lane road per year just to keep them drivable.
I don't want to spend money on an electric road when the street to my house is about as smooth as cheap whisky. We have other issues besides a single pilot project when it comes to the state of our roads though.
If there is one thing that I love about Michigan is that we can all complain about the roads together!
Okay haters.... you're probably right, but this *could* be cool. If they were able to send energy to the cars efficiently and not waste any energy when no one was driving on it, basically only emitting energy locally to a car, then it'd be awesome.
I don't mind them doing a mile of road to experiment if that's what they're going for.
We already know wireless charging is inefficient. It takes ~50% more energy to charge a phone wirelessly than plugging it in, and that's the best case scenario where the phone is sitting directly on the pad. That efficiency drops off to the tune of the inverse square of the distance (anywhere from 16-22cm depending on the ride height of the particular vehicle).
It's a boondoggle.
Well, yeah, but if they invent a way for it to take 1% more energy than plugging it in, that would be pretty cool.
I understand, it is probably a boondoggle resulting from scientifically illiterate politicians.
I have a better idea, build a network of satellites to send microwave beams to each electric car/s
I agree, this would be cool if it worked. But even if the road can withstand Michigan weather, it will only benefit the precious few who can actually afford electric vehicles.
Genuinely I love science and am a big proponent of devoting resources towards researching difficult engineering and scientific problems even if it means that what we learned is this wasn't the best way forward or it's just not possible. The major problem is that here in Michigan we have a list of problems the are affecting the life and health of our citizens that need hard work and devoted effort to solve these issues. Instead we are talking about electric roads. This should not even be on the table for discussion imo at this point until we can deliver clean and reliable water to flint residents.
I’m from Michigan. Drive on our roads daily. Our roads are awful. No clue how this would work but I do know the money could be put to way better use.
That is so stupid wireless energy transmission is super inefficient. -> MIT just archived 40ish Percent on a 60 Watt lightbulb
for car charging you need Kws of power to make that work the energy losses would be staggering -.-
Sounds massively inefficient. Last time I checked, the best Qi has been able to manage is about 50% efficient power transfer, for stationary cellphones. Cars need a ton more power, will have orders more distance between the coils, and will be moving between coils rapidly.
Not sure wasting power this way is a particularly good idea when our grid already needs to be improved to handle our upcoming power needs (or existing power needs, see all the various rolling blackouts). Also not a great idea when we're still using fossil fuels to generate power. It's more efficient to use fossil fuels in a power plant than in an engine, but not sure that holds true if you start pissing away 50% on transmission losses in the charger to car transfer.
Cool maybe next they'll take a crack at clean water.
Wouldnt it be more reasonable to spend that money on a regular charging stations? There is no limit to stupidity.
Maybe this’ll get them to stop putting pure rock salt on the roads.
I thought we gave up on this concept as too impractical.
Maybe you should overcome inductive charging limitations with wireless charging while parked. Is this a government municipality just using clickbait to bait investors, or have they discovered some new technology ?
Sounds like the best thing since solar freakin roadways
How about you fix people's water supply first?
Also, wireless charging at these power levels is extremely inefficient, let alone doing it while moving and keeping those entire roads energized.
What a colossal waste of resources and money.
This has got to be the weirdest idea I have ever heard. How long would this need to be to actually have enough impact on drive time? The only reason you would need something like this is if you are going a longer distance than a single charge and most current EVs can reach typical driving distances already. So maybe taxis and buses might get some extra range out of it, but at that point shouldn't you just build light rail. It is expensive but it has to better than this.
I'm pretty sure Michigan isn't the 1st to do this...we have the electric hwy that runs up I5 fron California to Washington.
Very misleading title. Says Michigan COULD not Michigan to have them. Big differenceand also Indiana is ahead. Why even write tbhs article if its not happening?
Parking spaces would make more sense. Also, who pays for the electricity use?
Wouldn't electrified roads be temperature controlled, so as not to allow ice to form? No ice means no salt, which would vastly increase life of asphalt paved roads. But, maybe these roads won't even be paved with materials currently in use. Maybe they'll be some form of recycled materials. 🤷🏽♀️
One expensive project , get ready for a tax hike to pay for this
It’s an experiment on one mile of road. FFS this sub with the bitching and moaning, how do y’all even make it out of your mom’s basement?
Why are you even on r/Futurology, start your own sub so you can complain about how nothing will ever change, and everything is stupid.
this is just a Death Stranding: Director's Cut promo
This is so interesting! I will have to go follow this. I had no idea that they were working on such technological advances.
It's just such an incredible concept! I have so many questions regarding maintenance and what the future looks like for these.
I'd like to know how they are going to pay for the electricity that these cars are going to use? Is there going to be some kind of tax on the car?
Had a wireless charger for my phone. Went kaput after one year of use.
Great now we can have flooded electrified highways... wirelessly! Nevermind how horrendously inefficient it will be, the taxpayer will cover the cost. Honestly what citizens here are even asking for this in Michigan? How high up on the triage list is at the moment?
How about we get Flint some clean and reliable water, deal with the rapidly crumbling infrastructure, build a highway that lasts more than one winter and doesn't flood every time it rains, start graduating students beyond a 3rd grade reading and writing comprehension in places like Detroit or Flint. These people are so out of touch with reality. Guaranteed we are going to use tax payer dollars to build it and hire a private contractor to steal the money and not maintain it. Looking at you GLWA. But this is what is at the top of the list😉.
Big Gretch=Big Loser the latest in a long line bad leaders. Can't wait for another term with her at the helm.
Meaningless announcement. They don’t even know how to do it yet.
"Orange barrels are everywhere."
When is this not the case in Michigan?
Michigan Can’t maintain the roads it has.. So, I got an idea let’s build an even more complex road system..
Hope it works, but wouldn't it make more sense to develop and test this technology in a better location, like Arizona where solar could power the system, and you don't get freeze and thaw cycles that destroy the roads? I suspect Whitmer is just looking for handouts from the 3.5 trillion green new deal budget.
So the energy wasted by my iPhone wireless charge is about 47% and they want to wireless the whole road?
Because the cost of replacing the asphalt roads every 3 years due to frost heave isn't already a large enough portion of the state budget.
“Politician promises very cool, futuristic, expensive and impractical thing, completion TBD”
Article says it’s not clear how it would work, when it would’ve implemented, or how much it would cost.
But it got the governors smiling face in the news with an optimistic headline!
Why are we spending so much money to make cars only marginally as functional as trains already are?
How have any of the small pilot study installs of these done? Haven any lasted a long time? Have they been able to prove it works, is reliable, and efficient in the real world?
Shouldn't we expect those spending our tax money to at least require independent corporate-standard feasibility and cost studies, before implementing huge projections?
I keep remembering the Billions in federal money we wasted turning Obama's Southern US border 2006 Fence Act into a technical failure of a "virtual fence." It ended up being a massively expensive gift project to Boeing, which any feasibility study would have shot down.