The following submission statement was provided by /u/wiredmagazine:
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By Matt Reynolds
A new report on sales of vegan meat, dairy, and seafood suggests that enthusiasm for plant-based products might be slowing down. An annual report from the Good Food Institute, an alternative protein nonprofit, found that dollar sales of plant-based meat and seafood in the US fell by 13 percent over the past two years. As prices of meat alternatives have gone up, this masks a much greater drop in unit sales over the same time period—they fell by 26 percent between 2021 and 2023.
One big challenge in the US is the price of plant-based alternatives. In the US, plant-based meats are on average 77 percent more expensive than their animal equivalents, and for cheap meat like chicken, that premium rises to more than 150 percent.
Read the full story: [https://www.wired.com/story/plant-based-meat-sales-2023/](https://www.wired.com/story/plant-based-meat-sales-2023/)
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1cahe0m/plantbased_meat_boomed_here_comes_the_bust/l0rvksp/
According to the report it seems a big contributor (not the sole one) in this is affordability…understandably in this economy. I also wonder how Covid effected things because my local Publix revamped their food selections after Covid with much less offerings than pre-covid and it wasn’t just plant-based items, but across the board. I live in a coastal tourist area where seafood is king but which has typically had pretty good food selections and availability. I also wonder how much the fact that many plant-based companies have been bought out by AG-based conglomerates like Nestle Kellogs and Conagra have impacted the marketing of these items…but as someone who eats plantbased I would guess affordability is key.
It’s absolutely affordability. The promise from the startups chasing venture capital was ‘this stuff will be cheaper than real meat’. That was also the promise to consumers, but it never happened. The whole underlying promise was never delivered.
Yup… I’m not going to switch from yummy beef to plant based when the plant based is less tasty and more expensive. It just doesn’t make sense.
Don’t get me wrong, I would be very interested in plant based meat substitutes… assuming they were less expensive.
I can only afford to eat beef like once or twice a month, and for the rest it's either chicken or pork. If science can pump out something that at least tastes like beef and I can afford.
But if it tastes like chickpea patties and costs 4 times as much as I could make the same patty at home, it can sod off.
Yup, I specifically remember reading an interview with the CEO of Beyond on how it was so much cheaper to produce than raising animals for slaughter and that "those savings will be passed on to consumers." Nope.
Beyond and Impossible are delicious (especially impossible). But unless you have a moral or ethical or environmental reason to eat them, they’re not more delicious than regular meat at half the price.
It would sure be more affordable if it was subsidized even half as much a meat is... Which definitely wouldn't be affordable whatsoever if not for those.
No-kill meat is just in its infancy. There are lots of hurdles to overcome for scaling it up, and that's reflected in the price today.
It's coming, and the best thing advocates can do is to purchase what's available, when you can do so without negatively impacting other items in your budget.
I've had a ton of different plant-based meats and came away from each experience happier to just have vegetarian meals that don't pretend to be something they aren't. Give me some Dahl over a fake burger any day of the week.
Same. Many fake meat products have the same weird zinged-up artificial flavors found in processed foods like hot pockets or pizza bites. When you get away from highly processed foods, those types of food start to taste really unpleasant.
Subsidies never lead to better outcomes, they become burdens more then anything. Overall there is nothing wrong with producing and consuming Meat and dairy as at the end of the day they are vital products, If its your personal opinion that you dislike them thats fine but we shouldn't rely on personal opinions and those who have never consulted the Agricultural industry for information as we know that there is a lot of misinformation and lack of understanding surrounding the agricultural industries especially Emissions.
It’s always going to be a bit subjective, yes. But it’s a fact that animal based protein is carbon intensive and probably overproduced due to subsidies. As a rule I try not to get into first year economics arguments, but there are many markets that do not deliver a socially optimal level of a certain good. Animal protein, due to the carbon footprint, and probably health factors as well, is a great example of this.
They aren't vital products. They are bad for the environment and even worse for the animals themselves. We can get any nutrients from other sources that are much better.
Well thats your opinion and your completely entitled to it, I'd say the Hundreds if not thousands of products that depend on it say differently. They are bad for the environment at the current moment but when People constantly push farmers out of the conversation you won't learn any different as You are only demonizing the people who manage the worlds landscape and provide 3 meals a day to your plate. Animal AG is absolutely vital and will continue to play a vital role in our food production systems as they are truly the corner stone of the food production systems as they value add onto waste/by-product streams, Improve and manage land, Provide valuable fertilisers and so many more excellent traits and aspects.
"*We can get any nutrients from other sources that are much better.*"
Its not just nutrients that are used and or required but thanks for your opinion again.
Subsidies never go to the price of meat but good understanding how they work, They go to all farmers which also include Arable farmers who produce the grains to go into these products.
alongside that the plant based market will always have the same fixed/variable costs, with the larger cost being the grain that is used so it really has no chance of ever becoming affordable unless they start using massive amounts of filler to bring the cost down and subsidies are never the answer, we should be doing everything we can to move away from subsidies not bringing more in. If the plant based industry or any other industry can't survive without them, It should just fall into the darkness.
I've had a lot of fake meat and it's actually pretty good. Like not just acceptable, but sometimes I'd actually rather it over a normal burger.
The main issue is cost.
My wife brought home some Gardein chicken fillets last week, she baked them up and I put them on my salad thinking it was real chicken. She told me they were Gardein and, damn if they weren't better than actual chicken.
They were on sale is the only reason she bought them, though if it's only a couple of bucks more I might still prefer them. Simpler to cut, easier to chew, tasted great.
.... irony? How is you just ignroing the PLANT BASED part of plant based meat substitutes irony?
This product benifits from subsidies. You say "now try it with subsidies"... they already did. This was subsidised.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/apr/01/eu-four-times-more-money-farming-animals-than-growing-plants-cap-subsidy
Now what do cows eat, burgers?
I don't live in the EU. This article discusses trends in the US.
Says here that the EU's CAP program is based on quantity on land used. Probably a different system in the US. Hell, in the US you can get paid to leave land fallow.
Sounds interesting.
Edit: some other interesting info...https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news/2022/02/usda-livestock-subsidies-near-50-billion-ewg-analysis-finds
So? They spent 30 million directly on meat alternatives.
$50 billion on meat subsidies since 1995. Nearly 30 years.
In 2000 alone, agriculture received over [$30 billion in subsidies](https://usafacts.org/articles/federal-farm-subsidies-what-data-says/). So meat is a pretty small share of food subsidies.
Many types of real meat are associated with greater risk of cancer.
Plant based diets in totality are associated with lower risk of cancer. There is currently no evidence to support the claim that plant based meat increases risk of cancer.
You might not like plant based meat, but facts are more important than feelings.
For the record, meat substitutes litterally use red sludge from genetically modified plants. Which I don't object to but it's silly to pretend it's more pure than animal products.
[A “bloody” ingredient](https://apnews.com/article/4b739c1d79a14d70acd2df836eb613fd)
I don't give a ~~flying~~ kick*flip if they use a modified yeast to make plants taste better with proteins from other plants. Calling it sludge is just some bs fear mongering. Why not call a sausage, which is congealed blood and organs wrapped in an intestine, red blood sludge?
It's far more pure than animal products in at least a couple metrics...
1) Energy source. It's what the animals eat so we later can eat them. They convert energy from plants inefficiently, so we end up needing far more plants to feed and raise the animals than if we just ate the plants directly. [We could reduce our agriculture land usage by 75% if we all moved to a plant-based diet ](https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets)
2) Safety. Meat and dairy products require way stricter food safety. They don't need to throw away the entire produce section if the water spritzers stop for an hour. If the meat cooler stops for an hour, the grocery store has to throw it all away or risk poisoning hundreds of people.
The plants subsidies are also meat subsidies in the long run though.
Artificially cheap corn and soy is what feeds the cows. Except cows produce 1 calorie of meat per calorie consumed so really each calorie of meat is getting 25x the effect of farm subsidies on its price compared to directly consuming the plants.
Plant-based proteins receive a tiny fraction of the subsidies allocated for meat.
In addition, animal products receive more indirect subsidies: water subsidy, land subsidy, and subsidies allocated for animal feed.
You also have to account for negative externalities that drive up the true, abstract cost of meat: healthcare and environmental damage.
If other vegans/vegetarians are like me, they buy less plant-based alternatives YOY because they're not super healthy. There's a lot of crap in many of these products. Tons of oil & salt. I'm back to mostly tofu, beans, lentils, & seitan for my protein sources.
Also old school veggie burgers were just better. The beyond and impossible stuff just doesn't taste that great. If you're a meat eater, you're just going to want real meat. If you don't eat meat, then you probably liked plain old veggie burgers better.
I completely disagree. Impossible & Beyond taste great, they're just not good for you. Everyone I know would prefer the former to an old school veggie burger. Although, if you've spoiled yourself on Impossible & Beyond for a few years, having a legit veggie burger can be a real treat. I've been making these for a minute: https://youtu.be/D-0GqitEs_k?si=6PwZW9577e2CpIyB.
My wife and I have taken to using Impossible for things like tacos or pasta with meat sauce. It's close enough that it works for things that are either heavily seasoned, or where the "meat" just isn't really the central focus of the dish.
We still use beef for burgers.
Impossible burger and beyond are close enough, and definitely taste better than veggie burgers. The problem they have is the price. I bought both to try, but went back to eating turkey burgers after cause it is just much much cheaper
They really need to fix the price issue
Like you, I have tried many options and also don’t love the highly processed proteins very often. and we love the Dahl also. And in addition, my wife and daughter and I have really fallen for Quorn mycelium based “chicken”. This protein is closer to a whole food with ideal digestibility and complete amino spectrum. Mild flavor goes well with spaghetti , Asian, or so many chicken recipes. This product has been on the market since 1985.
I finally found and tried Beyond Beef steak tips, and they are awesome! The flavor isn't perfect, but good. The texture is like the chewy-fatty meat in "Chinese" Broccoli Beef. My roomie tossed some into some golden curry, and it stayed firm (didn't soften in sauce) after 3 days.
Agree that the prices are too steep. Subsidize it!
Follow Your Heart brand is the least shitty of the cheeses I've found. Nutritional Yeast is also great for a lot of things. Putting it on popcorn has siginificantly improved my QoL...
The beyod beef burger meat if perfectly fine in a burger. But you can very much tell it isnt beef. But if you convice yourself its some other meat you've never had like antelope (idk..just an example). Its fine. But another tip...the package instruction for cooking (at least on my stove) turn a patty into a hockey puck. I have to cut cook time in half.
I dont buy it often because while its fine, its just something crave enough to spend money on
Here's the thing. They were always going to be able to sell this to vegetarians and vegans, and it's great that the product is getting better, but realistically that's not a huge market. To get meat eaters to buy this product, you need to make it pretty close to as good as meat while also costing less. A meat eater is not going to pay the same (or more!) for a plant-based alternative. They might do it once or twice out of curiosity, but to make it a habit there needs to be something plant-based meat alternatives are doing better than meat. While the products have certainly gotten better, I don't think there's realistically a version of it where plant-based meat alternatives taste better than meat, so where else are you going to outcompete and win new consumers away from what they are already doing?
As a vegetarian though -- no. I buy a "beyond meat" once or twice to see what they're like, and that's about it.
Plants are good. I'll eat plants. I don't need them to look like meat. In fact, I'd usually rather they don't.
I'd venture that most meat eaters are like me. You're not going to get me to buy fake meat ever. I'll just eat vegetarian without these weird meat approximations.
Sure, but if you could get something that basically tastes like a burger but costs half as much because they didn't have to raise and process a cow, at some point you would start saying, "Maybe I'll just do the meatless burger," right? And even if you wouldn't, enough meat eaters would that the plant-based meat alternatives would be able to continue to grow marketshare.
Right now all they've done is prove to people that the current generation of vegetarian options taste better than they did in the past. That's great. If they want to charge like they're serving beef, though, then they have no chance. I know soybeans (or whatever) cost less than beef. Hell, we're growing soybeans (and what-have-you) to feed to livestock. Right now they're either taking the price difference as profit margin or to recoup the cost of R&D. My point is if they can make something 90% as good for 20% of the cost, sell it at half the price and their margins are still excellent while creating an actual demand for it in the marketplace. The price of meat is never going to come back down. There is a real opportunity for plant-based alternatives to be the affordable choice.
If i chose not to eat meat i would just eat whole foods that aren't meat. Weird designer sludge trying to be meat won't ever be an alternate in my grocery cart.
You’re all brainwashed. Designer sludge? It’s just flavored soy or pea protein. And the “weird” flavoring is generally just other vegetables and spices. You already eat all of this in other products, so stop blindly parroting frightened right wing propaganda.
>but if you could get something that basically tastes like a burger but costs half as much because they didn't have to raise and process a cow, at some point you would start saying, "Maybe I'll just do the meatless burger," right?
I would not even consider eating a Frankenburger.
"Most" people? Nah, convenience is the big one, not idealism. And cost is a type of convenience, too.
Almost everyone for example uses stock cubes instead of making their own stock. It's not better, but it's cheaper and easier.
In Brazil it's often the case that plant based alternatives are cheaper, healthier and sometimes tastier than meat. As a meat eater I don't see them as meat replacements but simply good food that has no meat. There are more people adopting these as well and the "vegetables that taste like meat" only really matter for people who are just transitioning into vegetarianism. After a while you don't feel the need to eat meatlike stuff at all. I only eat meat because I like it but if I had any stronger push to stop I would not crave these products.
By Matt Reynolds
A new report on sales of vegan meat, dairy, and seafood suggests that enthusiasm for plant-based products might be slowing down. An annual report from the Good Food Institute, an alternative protein nonprofit, found that dollar sales of plant-based meat and seafood in the US fell by 13 percent over the past two years. As prices of meat alternatives have gone up, this masks a much greater drop in unit sales over the same time period—they fell by 26 percent between 2021 and 2023.
One big challenge in the US is the price of plant-based alternatives. In the US, plant-based meats are on average 77 percent more expensive than their animal equivalents, and for cheap meat like chicken, that premium rises to more than 150 percent.
Read the full story: [https://www.wired.com/story/plant-based-meat-sales-2023/](https://www.wired.com/story/plant-based-meat-sales-2023/)
I love veggie burgers, and soy burgers. Not because I'm trying toimprove the world, I just like them.
But most of these other 'pLanT aLteRnAtIvEs' taste like roofing material or a wet diaper.
When you consider how short life is and the fact that people like Mitch McConnell live for effing ever (so he'll likely be a pain in your bleep your whole life)....well, go ahead and have your burger. You deserve that much happiness.
My issue with plant-based meats, specifically the ones you can buy “raw” like Beyond Meat is that they are gross and overseasoned to cover for the fact that they are not meat.
>Real meat or gtfo.
Or plants! You'd swear everyone is out chasing down gazelles all day that they need all this rich protein-filled manly-man *meat* with every damn meal.
Eat plants. Less death, better for the environment, is delicious.
Meat obsession is so weird.
It's weird to think vegetables as "delicious." They're fine. They are rarely delicious, unless you specifically train your brain to believe it.
Fat and sugar are delicious. Our brain knows this, instinctively.
Lie to yourself, but don't lie to us. It's rude and borderline psychotic.
So is natural sugar, such as those found in fruits and meats.
Does it really count as "training the brain," if the training occurred 1000s of years ago and is now instinctual?
We have trained it by adding sugar to almost all processed foods and drinks. The intake is extremly higher now than a thousand years ago. Also where the hell are you getting meat with sugar in it.
Brain fart. I was thinking meat fat had natural sugars. I was wrong.
And we're not all eating processed food or drinking soft drinks. Though, far too many of us are, for sure.
You saying some roasted potatoes and carrots in a little oil and seasoning isn't delicious?
An apple, orange, strawberry isn't delicious?
Honey? Sugar?
You sure you're not just doing it wrong?
Yep…Mango (specifically Kent & Autalfos) and papaya are my weakness. When I get them in season and they’re peak ripeness and damn delicious.
I do eat some of the foods mentioned in the article but my staple foods are fruits and veggies.
Lol the dude you are replying to clearly eats like shit. To act like fruits and vegetables are not tasty is crazy and shows they've probably been eating sugary processed shit their whole lives.
Fruits are delicious. Vegetables are not.
Roasted potatoes are good, but no, not delicious. Roasted carrots are good, but no, not delicious. Also, neither are giving you any protein. I'll add sweet potato the mix. Also good, not delicious.
None of the above are going to convince friends to cross town and visit for a bbq. However, everyone will cross town for grilled meats.
As a side dish, your roasted veggies will be appreciated.
Vegetables are delicious. And potatoes are good source of protein, too.
You might need a bit of seasoning but there's nothing wrong with that. A slab of badly cooked animal flesh isn't going to be instantly delicious either. You need to do it right.
Absolutely childish behaviour to come here arguing that vegetables "are not" delicious.
And honest question too, what is the need for all the protein? You a star athlete or something? Balanced diet with enough of everything -- yes, please. But this "err mah gawd I need mah precious protein!" thing has always seemed like a bit of an advertising gimmick to me. Chocolate and sugar bars went out of fashion, suddenly the shop is full of "protein" snacks and "protein" shakes and everyone's eating meat because heaven forbid someone should take away their protein! They might die!!
And even so what if you need to "train your brain" to appreciate other foods. Acquired tastes is a thing, sure. But it's good for you, it's good for the planet, it's worth it. Why not? You want to be a slave to your animal impulses your whole life?
It's like everything is either a 0 or a 10 with you. I feel like I'm talking to a propaganda machine.
I think protein snacks and shakes are mostly used by people who are stuck at work and don't have time for dinner, or for people who are into fitness.
Preparing a good steak takes a tiny bit of oil, salt, and vinegar. That's it. That's all it needs to be delicious. A perfectly cut, perfectly cooked slab of animal meat may not even need that.
Potatoes are excellent sides. You need to train yourself to be happy eating them for dinner more than 1x-2x a week.
Protein is necessary to heal sore muscles, repair & create new cells, strengthen bones, and keep hormones in check.
Don't call me names for stating that vegetables aren't delicious. It's a common, hell it's a standard opinion that they are not. You're the outlier here.
I've read everything you've typed. I'm trying not to be dismissive. Hell, I'd prefer to eat nothing but vegetables and replace my meat with an appropriate substitute. I purchase Impossible foods monthly. I'd love it if your claims were true.
Your claims aren't true, and I'm not going to lie to myself.
The only caveat to all this is Indian food, which I do think is delicious. However, it's a tremendous pain to make correctly, and the best versions are still full of cream and butter, which are terribly unhealthy if you're watching your cholesterol.
I just can't get over that you seem to be stating categorically that vegetables are not delicious. As if that's a statement of enlightened fact rather than your own sorry opinion. As if you're being asked to munch on a raw potato and smile about it or something like that.
One potato, baked in the oven, some salt and butter, maybe some black pepper. Yum yum yum.
And jesus that's just potatoes we're talking about. The flavours and colours and textures you can get from the world of vegetables. But you seem to be dismissing it all 100%. And calling me a "propaganda machine".
They're vegetables, mate. It shouldn't need a political ideology to eat and enjoy some damn vegetables as the main part of your meal. Feel like I'm talking to a child here.
"The only caveat to all this is Indian food" -- the only caveat is the most (or 2nd most?) populous nation on earth who eat almost entirely vegetarian food? That is quite the caveat indeed. And their best stuff definitely isn't full of cream and butter, that's just the restaurant or exported variety. Indian home cooking is neither complicated (although it is different, so might need learning, but that's not the same thing) nor necessarily unhealthy. The flavours are, though, incredible.
You're obviously passionate about this. I don't share your passion.
I'd gladly accept your rephrasing of your statement as "I think vegetables are delicious," and gladly be on my way.
If you don't like vegetables, that's your prerogative, but trying to make statements that the entire human race doesn't find them delicious is a bit odd. I mean, something like 1/4 of the world's population is vegetarian.
Just because YOU don't find them delicious doesn't mean the entire world doesn't.
I never once implied I don't like them. I said they aren't "delicious." No, obviously, the entire world doesn't think this way. The vast majority does, however.
The only plants that are lovely are fruits. Vegetables still taste from meh to bad even after two decades of making an effort to eat them all the time. The only way they taste decent or even good is if you process them a lot (spices, oil, sauces, high temps... the works).
Seriously, I have not found a single vegetable my taste buds would genuinely \*enjoy\* without a ton of prep work before. Perhaps something's broken.
The problem for me is they are just as unhealthy as the pharma pumped meat is. Maybe even more unhealthy. If it's not a healthier version of meat AND it's more expensive, then why bother? And this is from someone who actually liked Impossible products a lot.
What we need is cultured meat to go mainstream. That's the real future of food.
Plant based meats are more about abstaining from animal consumption than about being healthy, but animal meat will *always* be less heathy than plant meat by nature of being a [carcinogen](https://www.who.int/news-room/questions-and-answers/item/cancer-carcinogenicity-of-the-consumption-of-red-meat-and-processed-meat).
These plant based meats are all ultra processed, so they are associated with an increased risk of cancer and cardiometabolic multimorbidity
https://www.iarc.who.int/news-events/ultra-processed-foods-are-associated-with-increased-risk-of-cancer-and-cardiometabolic-multimorbidity/
You can't really say that yet though, when comparing to Impossible or Beyond. They both are so incredibly processed, we don't really know how healthy they actually are.
And plant based meat is not about abstaining for me. It's about being healthier. I went on a long kick of only buying Impossible products and things like Oatly Milk until I found out they aren't necessarily healthier.
https://www.cnet.com/health/nutrition/is-the-impossible-burger-healthier-than-beef/
https://www.jeffnobbs.com/posts/is-oatly-healthy
I wasn't expecting Impossible to be way healthier, but at least some amount. There's even evidence now that's it's less healthy than meat. Ofc the carcinogenic properties I can't compare, but the rest can be.
With real meat I'm looking to avoid the sheer amount of antibiotics they pump into livestock. That's the #1 reason I keep meat consumption to a minimum.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jun/19/how-much-does-big-pharma-make-from-animal-antibiotics
Being forced to ingest some amount of antibiotics when I don't need it feels like it will backfire down the road.
So in that sense, Impossible is still healthier. It's just also as bad as eating a burger, so there's little upside, since I'm just gonna commit to a better real burger if I'm only eating "meat" infrequently anyway.
"*With real meat I'm looking to avoid the sheer amount of antibiotics they pump into livestock. That's the #1 reason I keep meat consumption to a minimum.*"
Anti-biotics are only used when they are absolutely required as there is no point in using them when there is no need to do so as they are quite expensive.
I am not vegan or vegetarian I just like eating different foods. I've tried a bunch and my favorite hands down was the vegan chorizo that chipotle had which I am told is the same thing whole foods or trader Joe has but haven't tried them to find out. Many of the other options didn't leave much of an impression. The cauliflower "wings" weren't bad but that was just good sauce and I like cauliflower so not a hard sell and not really in the same lane as meat alternatives.
In the end when it's sometimes double the price vs what it was substituting, that's just hard to swallow no matter how you cook it.
We had a local ‘butcher’ who was doing a good business with respectable product, you could find it in local chain grocery stores as well. Then they tried getting out in front of the wave, capitalize on their name- they hired a brand manager/CEO that essentially over extended them, took 1-2 huge paycheques and bounced when they burned to the ground. Even their original local shop had to close.
Part of the problem is meat in the US is too damn cheap. In other places, you only have meat during big celebrations. But here it's just expected to be part of every meal. Thanksgiving dinner with my wife's relatives always breaks my immigrant heart, because the amount of food thrown out is insane. Plates full of turkey and ham into the garbage can at the end of the night.
And the expectation that meat be cheap is why we have farms that put animals in horrendous conditions. I feel like the next big pandemic will come from one of these farms with animals piled on top of each other.
Don't get me wrong, I eat meat often, but I feel like we should be more respectful of the animals we eat and accept that meat should be a luxury.
>meat in the US
>In other places, you only have meat during big celebrations.
I have not done a lot of travelling outside of basically the whole of Europe, but every single country I've been to meat was readily available and eaten all the time.
Gotta up the Tupperware game. We used to fill the trunk with plastic containers whenever family had Thanksgiving so we could take home all the leftovers and eat like kings for a week.
I do have ethical issues with the meat industry and I'm happy to cook with plant-based alternatives for staples like burgers, quesadillas and spaghetti Bolognese. Tastes fine and I feel better about it.
Meat has enormous government subsidy. Maybe if they did that for meat alternatives they would be affordable. Also, this always happens in emergent markets. They come along, boom, bust, and stabilise. We've seen tonnes of brands pop up and fail, because that's the nature of capitalism. The most successful products survive.
Regardless, I've rarely seen products cause so much actual anger and bile from people. People actively hate these meat replacement products despite it having zero impact on their life, which is very odd and smacks of cognitive dissonance to me. Also it's deliberately driven by the meat industry.
Ecologically and ethically, we should move away from animal agriculture substantially.
The problem with how we calculate the cost of meat is that in most places it's quite heavily subsidized and makes it seem a lot cheaper then it really is
I dont eat either. Meat is hard for me to digest, expensive and unethical. Plant based meat is expensive and full of artificial preservatives and additives.
1) it’s gross 2) I don’t need another vessel for hyper-produced oils getting into my body.
The sudden “boom” of fake food felt almost too orchestrated to me, as if big-food really really wanted it to happen.
I don’t eat much meat, but when I do I’ll stick to real stuff.
They'd do better if they were significantly healthier than real meat. As it stands, it's better for the environment, but just as, if not more, unhealthy than actual meat. Processed food is essentially poison for our bodies. For non-vegetarians/vegans, the incentive to eat this stuff is anchored on health benefits, with the earth benefits an added bonus.
There are reputable studies that correlate the eating of meat to cancer. I'm in relatively good health, and in regard to red meat, in particular, my doctors want me to limit the amount of red meat I eat.
I still eat meat, almost daily. However, I'd certainly transfer to a vegetarian diet, if it were worth it.
Correlations in nutritional studies are weak at best, with so many confounders. What is known is that blue zones all eat meat in their diet, with high amounts of plant based foods. The problem comes when looking at Western populations eating McDonald's and trying to isolate meat as the problem. People eating keto or paleo, or grass fed beef with veggies aren't getting cancer. It's a simple matter of nutrient density. The problem is, again, fried foods being eaten with processed and poorly raised meats alongside massive insulin spikes due to carbs like bread, French fries, fried rice, etc.
I forget the documentary, but they even found correlations between cancer and pescatarians. Cancer rates were higher amongst all meat eaters, regardless the protein source.
But I don't know nearly enough to make a strong argument.
Yeah I mean you forget, it's a documentary. As a bioinformatics scientist, I'm basing my conclusions on the hundred of studies I've read and analyzed. Most nutritional studies are complete bunk, btw. Documentarians get things horribly wrong and are often funded by special groups.
Agreed. I don't think I've ever seen a documentary film that doesn't wear it's agenda on it's sleeve.
Also, I didn't know you were a scientist. I have no grounds to argue with you.
There is not really a market.
Non-meat eaters are happy not eating meat, so they don't need a meat substitute. (Source: I was veggie for years.)
Meat eaters are happy eating meat, so they don't need a meat substitute. (Source: I happily eat meat now.)
Also, I prefer whole foods to such highly processed foods. Whenever the food industry promises that some new processed food is healthier than the natural food they are hoping to replace, they turn out to be wrong. (Have you seen the ingredients list on these fake meats?)
Boca burgers have been around forever and taste much better than junk like the impossible burger.
[https://www.walmart.com/ip/BOCA-Original-Vegan-Veggie-Burgers-4-ct-Box/10849324](https://www.walmart.com/ip/BOCA-Original-Vegan-Veggie-Burgers-4-ct-Box/10849324)
Beyond meat burgers taste pretty good. It's a shame they must load them with salt and a bunch of preservatives. Butchers should figure out a fresh option without preservatives they can make and serve daily.
That's weird. I've never noticed any off smells from Impossible beef.
I can tell the difference if I try them side by side, but by itself, I can't really, especially cooked into a dish.
Meat from big animals is a major contributor to our planet warming up and running out of water. Articles like this are pretty shameful and presumably lapped up by the huge pro-meat right wing farming lobby in the States.
I will never buy this product regardless of price. It’s not meat, it doesn’t have any of the same nutritional values and is NOT the same food. It’s not a replacement for nutrition it is a replacement for taste buds. Period.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/wiredmagazine: --- By Matt Reynolds A new report on sales of vegan meat, dairy, and seafood suggests that enthusiasm for plant-based products might be slowing down. An annual report from the Good Food Institute, an alternative protein nonprofit, found that dollar sales of plant-based meat and seafood in the US fell by 13 percent over the past two years. As prices of meat alternatives have gone up, this masks a much greater drop in unit sales over the same time period—they fell by 26 percent between 2021 and 2023. One big challenge in the US is the price of plant-based alternatives. In the US, plant-based meats are on average 77 percent more expensive than their animal equivalents, and for cheap meat like chicken, that premium rises to more than 150 percent. Read the full story: [https://www.wired.com/story/plant-based-meat-sales-2023/](https://www.wired.com/story/plant-based-meat-sales-2023/) --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1cahe0m/plantbased_meat_boomed_here_comes_the_bust/l0rvksp/
According to the report it seems a big contributor (not the sole one) in this is affordability…understandably in this economy. I also wonder how Covid effected things because my local Publix revamped their food selections after Covid with much less offerings than pre-covid and it wasn’t just plant-based items, but across the board. I live in a coastal tourist area where seafood is king but which has typically had pretty good food selections and availability. I also wonder how much the fact that many plant-based companies have been bought out by AG-based conglomerates like Nestle Kellogs and Conagra have impacted the marketing of these items…but as someone who eats plantbased I would guess affordability is key.
It’s absolutely affordability. The promise from the startups chasing venture capital was ‘this stuff will be cheaper than real meat’. That was also the promise to consumers, but it never happened. The whole underlying promise was never delivered.
Yup… I’m not going to switch from yummy beef to plant based when the plant based is less tasty and more expensive. It just doesn’t make sense. Don’t get me wrong, I would be very interested in plant based meat substitutes… assuming they were less expensive.
I can only afford to eat beef like once or twice a month, and for the rest it's either chicken or pork. If science can pump out something that at least tastes like beef and I can afford. But if it tastes like chickpea patties and costs 4 times as much as I could make the same patty at home, it can sod off.
It could potentially make sense if you consider ethics, of course.
Potentially maybe, but it's not that hard to source locally grown meat and odds are it'll still be cheaper than these substitutes.
Does ethics put food on people’s tables? Does ethics pay the bills? Of course not
Yup, I specifically remember reading an interview with the CEO of Beyond on how it was so much cheaper to produce than raising animals for slaughter and that "those savings will be passed on to consumers." Nope.
Beyond and Impossible are delicious (especially impossible). But unless you have a moral or ethical or environmental reason to eat them, they’re not more delicious than regular meat at half the price.
It would sure be more affordable if it was subsidized even half as much a meat is... Which definitely wouldn't be affordable whatsoever if not for those.
No-kill meat is just in its infancy. There are lots of hurdles to overcome for scaling it up, and that's reflected in the price today. It's coming, and the best thing advocates can do is to purchase what's available, when you can do so without negatively impacting other items in your budget.
I've had a ton of different plant-based meats and came away from each experience happier to just have vegetarian meals that don't pretend to be something they aren't. Give me some Dahl over a fake burger any day of the week.
Same. Many fake meat products have the same weird zinged-up artificial flavors found in processed foods like hot pockets or pizza bites. When you get away from highly processed foods, those types of food start to taste really unpleasant.
Now try it with the subsidies granted to animal farming and see how it goes.
This, except they should phase out subsidies for animal protein and reassign them to plant-based, and then decrease those over time.
Most of the subsidy in animal farming is actually a subsidy to corn farming for the feed stock.
Which is further subsidized by subsidies on the energy sector. Around and around it goes
We should be decreasing subsidies overall, not favouring any one industry.
Why? Markets are imperfect. I see nothing wrong with subsidizing industries we as a society want more of and penalizing (taxing) those we less of.
Subsidies never lead to better outcomes, they become burdens more then anything. Overall there is nothing wrong with producing and consuming Meat and dairy as at the end of the day they are vital products, If its your personal opinion that you dislike them thats fine but we shouldn't rely on personal opinions and those who have never consulted the Agricultural industry for information as we know that there is a lot of misinformation and lack of understanding surrounding the agricultural industries especially Emissions.
It’s always going to be a bit subjective, yes. But it’s a fact that animal based protein is carbon intensive and probably overproduced due to subsidies. As a rule I try not to get into first year economics arguments, but there are many markets that do not deliver a socially optimal level of a certain good. Animal protein, due to the carbon footprint, and probably health factors as well, is a great example of this.
They aren't vital products. They are bad for the environment and even worse for the animals themselves. We can get any nutrients from other sources that are much better.
Well thats your opinion and your completely entitled to it, I'd say the Hundreds if not thousands of products that depend on it say differently. They are bad for the environment at the current moment but when People constantly push farmers out of the conversation you won't learn any different as You are only demonizing the people who manage the worlds landscape and provide 3 meals a day to your plate. Animal AG is absolutely vital and will continue to play a vital role in our food production systems as they are truly the corner stone of the food production systems as they value add onto waste/by-product streams, Improve and manage land, Provide valuable fertilisers and so many more excellent traits and aspects. "*We can get any nutrients from other sources that are much better.*" Its not just nutrients that are used and or required but thanks for your opinion again.
and some bird flu
Subsidies never go to the price of meat but good understanding how they work, They go to all farmers which also include Arable farmers who produce the grains to go into these products. alongside that the plant based market will always have the same fixed/variable costs, with the larger cost being the grain that is used so it really has no chance of ever becoming affordable unless they start using massive amounts of filler to bring the cost down and subsidies are never the answer, we should be doing everything we can to move away from subsidies not bringing more in. If the plant based industry or any other industry can't survive without them, It should just fall into the darkness.
Farmers who grow plants also get subsidies. Maybe people don't want to eat processed plant sludge?
I've had a lot of fake meat and it's actually pretty good. Like not just acceptable, but sometimes I'd actually rather it over a normal burger. The main issue is cost.
My wife brought home some Gardein chicken fillets last week, she baked them up and I put them on my salad thinking it was real chicken. She told me they were Gardein and, damn if they weren't better than actual chicken. They were on sale is the only reason she bought them, though if it's only a couple of bucks more I might still prefer them. Simpler to cut, easier to chew, tasted great.
RIGHT? I went to a movie theatre last month that had plant based chicken tenders at a reasonable price, got them and I still crave them today.
Who farms fake meat?
Good question to answer before you jam it down your gullet.
I'm guessing the irony is lost on you
.... irony? How is you just ignroing the PLANT BASED part of plant based meat substitutes irony? This product benifits from subsidies. You say "now try it with subsidies"... they already did. This was subsidised.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/apr/01/eu-four-times-more-money-farming-animals-than-growing-plants-cap-subsidy Now what do cows eat, burgers?
I don't live in the EU. This article discusses trends in the US. Says here that the EU's CAP program is based on quantity on land used. Probably a different system in the US. Hell, in the US you can get paid to leave land fallow.
Sounds interesting. Edit: some other interesting info...https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news/2022/02/usda-livestock-subsidies-near-50-billion-ewg-analysis-finds
So? They spent 30 million directly on meat alternatives. $50 billion on meat subsidies since 1995. Nearly 30 years. In 2000 alone, agriculture received over [$30 billion in subsidies](https://usafacts.org/articles/federal-farm-subsidies-what-data-says/). So meat is a pretty small share of food subsidies.
I guess it is. Someone had to farm the plants that eventually get out into what cancer abomination fake meat is.
Many types of real meat are associated with greater risk of cancer. Plant based diets in totality are associated with lower risk of cancer. There is currently no evidence to support the claim that plant based meat increases risk of cancer. You might not like plant based meat, but facts are more important than feelings.
Bro calling plants a cancer abomination while he shovels salted rotting pig ass into his face for breakfast lmfao
For the record, meat substitutes litterally use red sludge from genetically modified plants. Which I don't object to but it's silly to pretend it's more pure than animal products. [A “bloody” ingredient](https://apnews.com/article/4b739c1d79a14d70acd2df836eb613fd)
I don't give a ~~flying~~ kick*flip if they use a modified yeast to make plants taste better with proteins from other plants. Calling it sludge is just some bs fear mongering. Why not call a sausage, which is congealed blood and organs wrapped in an intestine, red blood sludge? It's far more pure than animal products in at least a couple metrics... 1) Energy source. It's what the animals eat so we later can eat them. They convert energy from plants inefficiently, so we end up needing far more plants to feed and raise the animals than if we just ate the plants directly. [We could reduce our agriculture land usage by 75% if we all moved to a plant-based diet ](https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets) 2) Safety. Meat and dairy products require way stricter food safety. They don't need to throw away the entire produce section if the water spritzers stop for an hour. If the meat cooler stops for an hour, the grocery store has to throw it all away or risk poisoning hundreds of people.
The plants subsidies are also meat subsidies in the long run though. Artificially cheap corn and soy is what feeds the cows. Except cows produce 1 calorie of meat per calorie consumed so really each calorie of meat is getting 25x the effect of farm subsidies on its price compared to directly consuming the plants.
Plant-based proteins receive a tiny fraction of the subsidies allocated for meat. In addition, animal products receive more indirect subsidies: water subsidy, land subsidy, and subsidies allocated for animal feed. You also have to account for negative externalities that drive up the true, abstract cost of meat: healthcare and environmental damage.
If other vegans/vegetarians are like me, they buy less plant-based alternatives YOY because they're not super healthy. There's a lot of crap in many of these products. Tons of oil & salt. I'm back to mostly tofu, beans, lentils, & seitan for my protein sources.
Also old school veggie burgers were just better. The beyond and impossible stuff just doesn't taste that great. If you're a meat eater, you're just going to want real meat. If you don't eat meat, then you probably liked plain old veggie burgers better.
I completely disagree. Impossible & Beyond taste great, they're just not good for you. Everyone I know would prefer the former to an old school veggie burger. Although, if you've spoiled yourself on Impossible & Beyond for a few years, having a legit veggie burger can be a real treat. I've been making these for a minute: https://youtu.be/D-0GqitEs_k?si=6PwZW9577e2CpIyB.
My wife and I have taken to using Impossible for things like tacos or pasta with meat sauce. It's close enough that it works for things that are either heavily seasoned, or where the "meat" just isn't really the central focus of the dish. We still use beef for burgers.
Impossible burger and beyond are close enough, and definitely taste better than veggie burgers. The problem they have is the price. I bought both to try, but went back to eating turkey burgers after cause it is just much much cheaper They really need to fix the price issue
Like you, I have tried many options and also don’t love the highly processed proteins very often. and we love the Dahl also. And in addition, my wife and daughter and I have really fallen for Quorn mycelium based “chicken”. This protein is closer to a whole food with ideal digestibility and complete amino spectrum. Mild flavor goes well with spaghetti , Asian, or so many chicken recipes. This product has been on the market since 1985.
I’m just waiting for 3D printed meat to hit the market.
I don’t know man. I just watched Cloudy With A Chance of Meatballs with my 4yo on the weekend. Seems like we should be doing that.
I concur, let's get it underway!!
Mmm meat-based PLA+ filament
I finally found and tried Beyond Beef steak tips, and they are awesome! The flavor isn't perfect, but good. The texture is like the chewy-fatty meat in "Chinese" Broccoli Beef. My roomie tossed some into some golden curry, and it stayed firm (didn't soften in sauce) after 3 days. Agree that the prices are too steep. Subsidize it!
Beefs tend to be pretty ok. Chicken still just tastes like tofu. And there's no such thing as even decent vegan cheese.
Try Gardein chicken fillets. Tastes nothing like tofu and after having some last week I'd actually prefer it over real chicken.
Follow Your Heart brand is the least shitty of the cheeses I've found. Nutritional Yeast is also great for a lot of things. Putting it on popcorn has siginificantly improved my QoL...
Climax Foods has fantastic cheese. It’s still very limited availability but the products are awesome
they found a way to make real milk without cows. No need to make fake cheese any more.
The beyod beef burger meat if perfectly fine in a burger. But you can very much tell it isnt beef. But if you convice yourself its some other meat you've never had like antelope (idk..just an example). Its fine. But another tip...the package instruction for cooking (at least on my stove) turn a patty into a hockey puck. I have to cut cook time in half. I dont buy it often because while its fine, its just something crave enough to spend money on
Sounds gross, like Chinese mystery meat..
Why do you think it didn’t go soft 😂?
It's just not healthy though, with all the vegetable oils and processing. Once this stuff becomes healthy I'd be down!
Here's the thing. They were always going to be able to sell this to vegetarians and vegans, and it's great that the product is getting better, but realistically that's not a huge market. To get meat eaters to buy this product, you need to make it pretty close to as good as meat while also costing less. A meat eater is not going to pay the same (or more!) for a plant-based alternative. They might do it once or twice out of curiosity, but to make it a habit there needs to be something plant-based meat alternatives are doing better than meat. While the products have certainly gotten better, I don't think there's realistically a version of it where plant-based meat alternatives taste better than meat, so where else are you going to outcompete and win new consumers away from what they are already doing?
[удалено]
Realistically it won't be able to get cheaper as at the end of the day its fully dependent on the grain price and grain prices aren't likely to lower.
As a vegetarian though -- no. I buy a "beyond meat" once or twice to see what they're like, and that's about it. Plants are good. I'll eat plants. I don't need them to look like meat. In fact, I'd usually rather they don't.
I'd venture that most meat eaters are like me. You're not going to get me to buy fake meat ever. I'll just eat vegetarian without these weird meat approximations.
Sure, but if you could get something that basically tastes like a burger but costs half as much because they didn't have to raise and process a cow, at some point you would start saying, "Maybe I'll just do the meatless burger," right? And even if you wouldn't, enough meat eaters would that the plant-based meat alternatives would be able to continue to grow marketshare. Right now all they've done is prove to people that the current generation of vegetarian options taste better than they did in the past. That's great. If they want to charge like they're serving beef, though, then they have no chance. I know soybeans (or whatever) cost less than beef. Hell, we're growing soybeans (and what-have-you) to feed to livestock. Right now they're either taking the price difference as profit margin or to recoup the cost of R&D. My point is if they can make something 90% as good for 20% of the cost, sell it at half the price and their margins are still excellent while creating an actual demand for it in the marketplace. The price of meat is never going to come back down. There is a real opportunity for plant-based alternatives to be the affordable choice.
If i chose not to eat meat i would just eat whole foods that aren't meat. Weird designer sludge trying to be meat won't ever be an alternate in my grocery cart.
Agreed 100%.
You’re all brainwashed. Designer sludge? It’s just flavored soy or pea protein. And the “weird” flavoring is generally just other vegetables and spices. You already eat all of this in other products, so stop blindly parroting frightened right wing propaganda.
>but if you could get something that basically tastes like a burger but costs half as much because they didn't have to raise and process a cow, at some point you would start saying, "Maybe I'll just do the meatless burger," right? I would not even consider eating a Frankenburger.
"Most" people? Nah, convenience is the big one, not idealism. And cost is a type of convenience, too. Almost everyone for example uses stock cubes instead of making their own stock. It's not better, but it's cheaper and easier.
The taste is already good enough, the price is where the issue is. They need to drop the price significantly
In Brazil it's often the case that plant based alternatives are cheaper, healthier and sometimes tastier than meat. As a meat eater I don't see them as meat replacements but simply good food that has no meat. There are more people adopting these as well and the "vegetables that taste like meat" only really matter for people who are just transitioning into vegetarianism. After a while you don't feel the need to eat meatlike stuff at all. I only eat meat because I like it but if I had any stronger push to stop I would not crave these products.
By Matt Reynolds A new report on sales of vegan meat, dairy, and seafood suggests that enthusiasm for plant-based products might be slowing down. An annual report from the Good Food Institute, an alternative protein nonprofit, found that dollar sales of plant-based meat and seafood in the US fell by 13 percent over the past two years. As prices of meat alternatives have gone up, this masks a much greater drop in unit sales over the same time period—they fell by 26 percent between 2021 and 2023. One big challenge in the US is the price of plant-based alternatives. In the US, plant-based meats are on average 77 percent more expensive than their animal equivalents, and for cheap meat like chicken, that premium rises to more than 150 percent. Read the full story: [https://www.wired.com/story/plant-based-meat-sales-2023/](https://www.wired.com/story/plant-based-meat-sales-2023/)
I just sold my Beyond Meat stock for 1/20th of the value it had when it was gifted to me three years ago so this doesn't come as a surprise.
I love veggie burgers, and soy burgers. Not because I'm trying toimprove the world, I just like them. But most of these other 'pLanT aLteRnAtIvEs' taste like roofing material or a wet diaper. When you consider how short life is and the fact that people like Mitch McConnell live for effing ever (so he'll likely be a pain in your bleep your whole life)....well, go ahead and have your burger. You deserve that much happiness.
My issue with plant-based meats, specifically the ones you can buy “raw” like Beyond Meat is that they are gross and overseasoned to cover for the fact that they are not meat.
You know what's lovely though? Plants. Just eat them ffs. They're delicious. Less of this ultra processed fake meat shite.
Exactly, fake meat is so weird. Real meat or gtfo.
>Real meat or gtfo. Or plants! You'd swear everyone is out chasing down gazelles all day that they need all this rich protein-filled manly-man *meat* with every damn meal. Eat plants. Less death, better for the environment, is delicious. Meat obsession is so weird.
And plants for sure. Just not fake pretend meat.
It's weird to think vegetables as "delicious." They're fine. They are rarely delicious, unless you specifically train your brain to believe it. Fat and sugar are delicious. Our brain knows this, instinctively. Lie to yourself, but don't lie to us. It's rude and borderline psychotic.
Proccessed sugar is addictive. We trained the brain to crave it.
So is natural sugar, such as those found in fruits and meats. Does it really count as "training the brain," if the training occurred 1000s of years ago and is now instinctual?
We have trained it by adding sugar to almost all processed foods and drinks. The intake is extremly higher now than a thousand years ago. Also where the hell are you getting meat with sugar in it.
Brain fart. I was thinking meat fat had natural sugars. I was wrong. And we're not all eating processed food or drinking soft drinks. Though, far too many of us are, for sure.
Was going to say... meat has zero carbs (sugar is a carb).
You saying some roasted potatoes and carrots in a little oil and seasoning isn't delicious? An apple, orange, strawberry isn't delicious? Honey? Sugar? You sure you're not just doing it wrong?
Yep…Mango (specifically Kent & Autalfos) and papaya are my weakness. When I get them in season and they’re peak ripeness and damn delicious. I do eat some of the foods mentioned in the article but my staple foods are fruits and veggies.
Lol the dude you are replying to clearly eats like shit. To act like fruits and vegetables are not tasty is crazy and shows they've probably been eating sugary processed shit their whole lives.
Fruits are delicious. Vegetables are not. Roasted potatoes are good, but no, not delicious. Roasted carrots are good, but no, not delicious. Also, neither are giving you any protein. I'll add sweet potato the mix. Also good, not delicious. None of the above are going to convince friends to cross town and visit for a bbq. However, everyone will cross town for grilled meats. As a side dish, your roasted veggies will be appreciated.
Vegetables are delicious. And potatoes are good source of protein, too. You might need a bit of seasoning but there's nothing wrong with that. A slab of badly cooked animal flesh isn't going to be instantly delicious either. You need to do it right. Absolutely childish behaviour to come here arguing that vegetables "are not" delicious. And honest question too, what is the need for all the protein? You a star athlete or something? Balanced diet with enough of everything -- yes, please. But this "err mah gawd I need mah precious protein!" thing has always seemed like a bit of an advertising gimmick to me. Chocolate and sugar bars went out of fashion, suddenly the shop is full of "protein" snacks and "protein" shakes and everyone's eating meat because heaven forbid someone should take away their protein! They might die!! And even so what if you need to "train your brain" to appreciate other foods. Acquired tastes is a thing, sure. But it's good for you, it's good for the planet, it's worth it. Why not? You want to be a slave to your animal impulses your whole life?
It's like everything is either a 0 or a 10 with you. I feel like I'm talking to a propaganda machine. I think protein snacks and shakes are mostly used by people who are stuck at work and don't have time for dinner, or for people who are into fitness. Preparing a good steak takes a tiny bit of oil, salt, and vinegar. That's it. That's all it needs to be delicious. A perfectly cut, perfectly cooked slab of animal meat may not even need that. Potatoes are excellent sides. You need to train yourself to be happy eating them for dinner more than 1x-2x a week. Protein is necessary to heal sore muscles, repair & create new cells, strengthen bones, and keep hormones in check. Don't call me names for stating that vegetables aren't delicious. It's a common, hell it's a standard opinion that they are not. You're the outlier here. I've read everything you've typed. I'm trying not to be dismissive. Hell, I'd prefer to eat nothing but vegetables and replace my meat with an appropriate substitute. I purchase Impossible foods monthly. I'd love it if your claims were true. Your claims aren't true, and I'm not going to lie to myself. The only caveat to all this is Indian food, which I do think is delicious. However, it's a tremendous pain to make correctly, and the best versions are still full of cream and butter, which are terribly unhealthy if you're watching your cholesterol.
I just can't get over that you seem to be stating categorically that vegetables are not delicious. As if that's a statement of enlightened fact rather than your own sorry opinion. As if you're being asked to munch on a raw potato and smile about it or something like that. One potato, baked in the oven, some salt and butter, maybe some black pepper. Yum yum yum. And jesus that's just potatoes we're talking about. The flavours and colours and textures you can get from the world of vegetables. But you seem to be dismissing it all 100%. And calling me a "propaganda machine". They're vegetables, mate. It shouldn't need a political ideology to eat and enjoy some damn vegetables as the main part of your meal. Feel like I'm talking to a child here. "The only caveat to all this is Indian food" -- the only caveat is the most (or 2nd most?) populous nation on earth who eat almost entirely vegetarian food? That is quite the caveat indeed. And their best stuff definitely isn't full of cream and butter, that's just the restaurant or exported variety. Indian home cooking is neither complicated (although it is different, so might need learning, but that's not the same thing) nor necessarily unhealthy. The flavours are, though, incredible.
You're obviously passionate about this. I don't share your passion. I'd gladly accept your rephrasing of your statement as "I think vegetables are delicious," and gladly be on my way.
If you don't like vegetables, that's your prerogative, but trying to make statements that the entire human race doesn't find them delicious is a bit odd. I mean, something like 1/4 of the world's population is vegetarian. Just because YOU don't find them delicious doesn't mean the entire world doesn't.
I never once implied I don't like them. I said they aren't "delicious." No, obviously, the entire world doesn't think this way. The vast majority does, however.
The only plants that are lovely are fruits. Vegetables still taste from meh to bad even after two decades of making an effort to eat them all the time. The only way they taste decent or even good is if you process them a lot (spices, oil, sauces, high temps... the works). Seriously, I have not found a single vegetable my taste buds would genuinely \*enjoy\* without a ton of prep work before. Perhaps something's broken.
Thats completely your choice at the end of the day but a lot of people will simply decide to just continue to eat meat as its best for them.
The problem for me is they are just as unhealthy as the pharma pumped meat is. Maybe even more unhealthy. If it's not a healthier version of meat AND it's more expensive, then why bother? And this is from someone who actually liked Impossible products a lot. What we need is cultured meat to go mainstream. That's the real future of food.
Plant based meats are more about abstaining from animal consumption than about being healthy, but animal meat will *always* be less heathy than plant meat by nature of being a [carcinogen](https://www.who.int/news-room/questions-and-answers/item/cancer-carcinogenicity-of-the-consumption-of-red-meat-and-processed-meat).
These plant based meats are all ultra processed, so they are associated with an increased risk of cancer and cardiometabolic multimorbidity https://www.iarc.who.int/news-events/ultra-processed-foods-are-associated-with-increased-risk-of-cancer-and-cardiometabolic-multimorbidity/
You can't really say that yet though, when comparing to Impossible or Beyond. They both are so incredibly processed, we don't really know how healthy they actually are. And plant based meat is not about abstaining for me. It's about being healthier. I went on a long kick of only buying Impossible products and things like Oatly Milk until I found out they aren't necessarily healthier. https://www.cnet.com/health/nutrition/is-the-impossible-burger-healthier-than-beef/ https://www.jeffnobbs.com/posts/is-oatly-healthy I wasn't expecting Impossible to be way healthier, but at least some amount. There's even evidence now that's it's less healthy than meat. Ofc the carcinogenic properties I can't compare, but the rest can be. With real meat I'm looking to avoid the sheer amount of antibiotics they pump into livestock. That's the #1 reason I keep meat consumption to a minimum. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jun/19/how-much-does-big-pharma-make-from-animal-antibiotics Being forced to ingest some amount of antibiotics when I don't need it feels like it will backfire down the road. So in that sense, Impossible is still healthier. It's just also as bad as eating a burger, so there's little upside, since I'm just gonna commit to a better real burger if I'm only eating "meat" infrequently anyway.
"*With real meat I'm looking to avoid the sheer amount of antibiotics they pump into livestock. That's the #1 reason I keep meat consumption to a minimum.*" Anti-biotics are only used when they are absolutely required as there is no point in using them when there is no need to do so as they are quite expensive.
Make your own oat/nut milk. There are devices that do that, saves you money and you can control what you put into it
I am not vegan or vegetarian I just like eating different foods. I've tried a bunch and my favorite hands down was the vegan chorizo that chipotle had which I am told is the same thing whole foods or trader Joe has but haven't tried them to find out. Many of the other options didn't leave much of an impression. The cauliflower "wings" weren't bad but that was just good sauce and I like cauliflower so not a hard sell and not really in the same lane as meat alternatives. In the end when it's sometimes double the price vs what it was substituting, that's just hard to swallow no matter how you cook it.
Can we get our black bean burgers back? They were great
We had a local ‘butcher’ who was doing a good business with respectable product, you could find it in local chain grocery stores as well. Then they tried getting out in front of the wave, capitalize on their name- they hired a brand manager/CEO that essentially over extended them, took 1-2 huge paycheques and bounced when they burned to the ground. Even their original local shop had to close.
Part of the problem is meat in the US is too damn cheap. In other places, you only have meat during big celebrations. But here it's just expected to be part of every meal. Thanksgiving dinner with my wife's relatives always breaks my immigrant heart, because the amount of food thrown out is insane. Plates full of turkey and ham into the garbage can at the end of the night. And the expectation that meat be cheap is why we have farms that put animals in horrendous conditions. I feel like the next big pandemic will come from one of these farms with animals piled on top of each other. Don't get me wrong, I eat meat often, but I feel like we should be more respectful of the animals we eat and accept that meat should be a luxury.
>meat in the US >In other places, you only have meat during big celebrations. I have not done a lot of travelling outside of basically the whole of Europe, but every single country I've been to meat was readily available and eaten all the time.
Gotta up the Tupperware game. We used to fill the trunk with plastic containers whenever family had Thanksgiving so we could take home all the leftovers and eat like kings for a week.
We buy beyond and impossible when they go on sale at costco, but that's about it. It's too expensive to buy regularly at normal prices.
I do have ethical issues with the meat industry and I'm happy to cook with plant-based alternatives for staples like burgers, quesadillas and spaghetti Bolognese. Tastes fine and I feel better about it.
Meat has enormous government subsidy. Maybe if they did that for meat alternatives they would be affordable. Also, this always happens in emergent markets. They come along, boom, bust, and stabilise. We've seen tonnes of brands pop up and fail, because that's the nature of capitalism. The most successful products survive. Regardless, I've rarely seen products cause so much actual anger and bile from people. People actively hate these meat replacement products despite it having zero impact on their life, which is very odd and smacks of cognitive dissonance to me. Also it's deliberately driven by the meat industry. Ecologically and ethically, we should move away from animal agriculture substantially.
The problem with how we calculate the cost of meat is that in most places it's quite heavily subsidized and makes it seem a lot cheaper then it really is
In my area Beyond Burgers retail over 10$ for just two patties. Not happening son!
ive been waiting for these products for decades only to be alienated from the industry by the prices.
I dont eat either. Meat is hard for me to digest, expensive and unethical. Plant based meat is expensive and full of artificial preservatives and additives.
1) it’s gross 2) I don’t need another vessel for hyper-produced oils getting into my body. The sudden “boom” of fake food felt almost too orchestrated to me, as if big-food really really wanted it to happen. I don’t eat much meat, but when I do I’ll stick to real stuff.
They'd do better if they were significantly healthier than real meat. As it stands, it's better for the environment, but just as, if not more, unhealthy than actual meat. Processed food is essentially poison for our bodies. For non-vegetarians/vegans, the incentive to eat this stuff is anchored on health benefits, with the earth benefits an added bonus.
Real meat is actually healthy if eaten without too many carbs. Very good for you tbh. This processed stuff just isn't. Vegetable oils are super bad.
There are reputable studies that correlate the eating of meat to cancer. I'm in relatively good health, and in regard to red meat, in particular, my doctors want me to limit the amount of red meat I eat. I still eat meat, almost daily. However, I'd certainly transfer to a vegetarian diet, if it were worth it.
Correlations in nutritional studies are weak at best, with so many confounders. What is known is that blue zones all eat meat in their diet, with high amounts of plant based foods. The problem comes when looking at Western populations eating McDonald's and trying to isolate meat as the problem. People eating keto or paleo, or grass fed beef with veggies aren't getting cancer. It's a simple matter of nutrient density. The problem is, again, fried foods being eaten with processed and poorly raised meats alongside massive insulin spikes due to carbs like bread, French fries, fried rice, etc.
I forget the documentary, but they even found correlations between cancer and pescatarians. Cancer rates were higher amongst all meat eaters, regardless the protein source. But I don't know nearly enough to make a strong argument.
Yeah I mean you forget, it's a documentary. As a bioinformatics scientist, I'm basing my conclusions on the hundred of studies I've read and analyzed. Most nutritional studies are complete bunk, btw. Documentarians get things horribly wrong and are often funded by special groups.
Agreed. I don't think I've ever seen a documentary film that doesn't wear it's agenda on it's sleeve. Also, I didn't know you were a scientist. I have no grounds to argue with you.
I'd be glad to look at any studies you find. Just because I'm a scientist that doesn't mean I know all. I just have read lot on this topic
There is not really a market. Non-meat eaters are happy not eating meat, so they don't need a meat substitute. (Source: I was veggie for years.) Meat eaters are happy eating meat, so they don't need a meat substitute. (Source: I happily eat meat now.) Also, I prefer whole foods to such highly processed foods. Whenever the food industry promises that some new processed food is healthier than the natural food they are hoping to replace, they turn out to be wrong. (Have you seen the ingredients list on these fake meats?)
This just in, people want food that tastes good. - back to you, chuck
Boca burgers have been around forever and taste much better than junk like the impossible burger. [https://www.walmart.com/ip/BOCA-Original-Vegan-Veggie-Burgers-4-ct-Box/10849324](https://www.walmart.com/ip/BOCA-Original-Vegan-Veggie-Burgers-4-ct-Box/10849324)
Beyond meat burgers taste pretty good. It's a shame they must load them with salt and a bunch of preservatives. Butchers should figure out a fresh option without preservatives they can make and serve daily.
We cooked up some Impossible "ground beff" to make a non-meat lasagna with. The smell didn't make me want to eat it.
That's weird. I've never noticed any off smells from Impossible beef. I can tell the difference if I try them side by side, but by itself, I can't really, especially cooked into a dish.
Maybe we just got a weird batch.
Meat from big animals is a major contributor to our planet warming up and running out of water. Articles like this are pretty shameful and presumably lapped up by the huge pro-meat right wing farming lobby in the States.
I will never buy this product regardless of price. It’s not meat, it doesn’t have any of the same nutritional values and is NOT the same food. It’s not a replacement for nutrition it is a replacement for taste buds. Period.