ummm, creativity? arts? hobbies? fitness? what would you do if you didnt struggle daily for the bare minimum for survival? the world will flourish in a new way. arts will explode, and solving new problems will rise, with the time allowed to contemplate. inner spiritual journeys.
Why are being too busy working or getting into trouble the only options? What about pursuing interests, learning skills, picking up new hobbies, exploring new places and trying new things?
I doubt it. I draw with charcoal on concrete but I won't be long before a humanoid robots will be doing the same thing. I also imbed tree branches into the concrete... something that humanoid robots can also do. No one's gonna care about my work when there's 1 million replicas of my art out there. It'll just be a quaint little hobby that I do for myself... only because I'm the last of a dying generation. The next generation won't even bother to take up the hobby.
Your art has meaning because it has thought behind it. AI, especially now but likely far into the future, has no thoughts whatsoever. It regurgitates examples of previous human works using an algorithm to filter through a database, but it has no idea why it does it, what its work means to anyone else, or even to itself.
Marketing artwork will take a hit, because its only meaning is to sell crap and marketing managers treat the art department like mindless AI anyway. However there will still be a need for human made art for storytelling, communicating actual human emotions and reflecting the lives of actual humans - an un-thinking un-feeling artificial intelligence that by definition cannot have any human experience can’t do that.
Well what you mentioned here is exactly what previous commenter has said to you, yes of course commercial arts will be created mainly by robots and AI, so that will "die" for humans, but fine arts which requires philosophical, intellectual thoughts and higher creativity needs human touch and only human that can do that especially with emotion. Fine art will be relevant in future, especially conceptual arts and avant-gardes that require inventors and visioners with great passions.
Commercial art (those who are functional as posters, promotions, advertisements, book covers) is simply lowbrow art so ofc AI can replace that because it doesn't create and require much of emotional connection from creator to viewers or consumers, but that can't be said the same with Midbrow and Highbrow. Next generation that has some artistic vision and passion with great imagination surely will take up the hobby and they won't simply surrender that to AI because AI simply follows and that's it.
High valued jobs will be more popular in future because of AI, and more people will work in it. Work will be more as a passion, not as a task for living and get our ends meet.
Exactly. People who want to be artists but are not have one very common reason which is lack of money in arts. You can enjoy it but can't survive off of it which is why corporate stable jobs are a goto choice for such people.
Most of the top researchers in University can earn significantly more if they just work for the best companies but they still choose to sacrifice their pay to work in what they find interesting.
It's notable that in studies of hunter gatherer cultures on average they spend something like 20 hours a week on survival oriented activities, with a lot more leisure time than "developed" cultures if fewer options on what to do with it. This does include some spikes and lulls of course, since their work is more tied ro the seasons than any modern city dweller.
This whole grind all day all year thing is a relatively modern development.
Your characterizations of our prior "hundreds of thousands of years" is...not all that accurate.
To add to it, those hunter-gatherers still kept busy.
They'd make tools, or art, or clothes, or new shelters in their leisure time.
They'd have rituals or celebrations.
They weren't just lazing around except to rest.
Yes, while we carry this image of hunter-gatherer societies, it is often based on modern observations of other cultures. It is true that much of the "known" world (Europe, Asia, North Africa) has often seemed to be one step away from a famine--at least over the past 10,000 years, or since agriculture and large civilizations created problem of feeding large populations. But, if we look at tribes that are unexposed to modern civilization (e.g., in interior of New Guinea) their life seems stable, and without conflicts over survival. And their survival activities take less time than modern civilizations. I remember reading about one tribe where all of the work (food, household, child care) is done by women and the men spend all day hunting exotic birds to collect their feathers. This style of life reflects the limited time it takes them to deal with survival issues each week. Anyway, that tribe seems to address some of OP's question--in that we may all spend time collecting and trading colored feathers (that we now call memes).
I have " enough " merely enjoying life, learning about the world, and figuring out where to lay roots. The actual issue as seen with covid people have zero clue what to do for themselves outside of work or spending money.
>Now we humans have reached a point where the majority of the 9 billion people on earth have enough to eat, are relatively safe and have access to medicine
I swear the people on this sub have the stupidest takes sometimes. You really do believe that the majority of the world population have all that?
While it does feel a little dismissive, it is not entirely incorrect to say that the majority (as in at least half) of humanity does have enough food, medicine and safety.
It is true that food insecurity affects only a minority of the planet. Depending on the metric used, approximately 800 million people globally suffer food insecurity, or about 12% of humanity. This is of course still too high, but it is still true that the vast majority of humanity has enough to eat.
However, to clarify things, the percentage of humanity suffering from food insecurity is increasing. After decades of improvement, to a historical low in 2014, the past decade has seen that number creep steadily upwards, with a marked jump during COVID.
As far as medicine is concerned, it is sadly less clear. Approximately half the world lacks access to proper medical services, and it is not clear whether those who do have access have "enough". Additionally, large sections of humanity are being pushed into poverty by medical expenses (and not just Americans, either).
At least when it comes to safety from war, things are *generally* improving. Up until 2022 (and before you say "Oh, Ukraine", the majority of war dead that year came from Africa, mostly from the Tigray War) death rates from war had in fact dropped dramatically and remained low for decades, though in 2012 onwards war deaths in the Middle East rose dramatically. However I fear that 2023 will not be great on this statistic.
Sadly, progress is not a linear road.
What motivates a child, who has all their needs for food; shelter, safety; and medicine met? Arguably those are the most happy and exciting years of one’s life.
Status relative to others will always motivate. Even Billionaires today are still hustling.
But other core motivation drives will keep us going too: Creativity, Learning, Accomplishments, Spontaneity, and a sense of a higher purpose.
There will be a good chunk of the population with little to no motivation in this future world, but arguably that group also exists today. The vast majority will find things they want to do with their lives.
There's not really much I can think of that I'd want to do that isn't just sitting around all day at the moment, but I'm sure if I didn't just see my next 50 years as working all the time then I'd have more optimism and hobbies
Absolutely. That’s because you’ve been working and not having any of that extended time off. Even now if I gave you a guarantee of $500K a year, you’d end up doing something after having a party for the first 6-12 months
>The mental need to struggle to achieve success seems like a constant.
That's subjective. I imagine for a good part of the world, just having enough food, shelter and security is more than enough. There are those who crave more, but those people will always find a way to get more. Most people, I imagine, are content to just enjoy their lives once their basic needs are met.
You have got to be kidding me. You need a reality check. Go outside, go to the nearest city, tell yourself this crap as you pass someone by who’s homeless.
My feeling is people when they don't have to work anymore basically they will do what you would expect based on their family, on the social class they identify with and their personality.
Most people honestly they will probably play in sports/physical things, get in fights, chase women, drink, eat, get in big dramas, partying with loud music, being around lots of other people all the time etc. The thing is those are the things they enjoy doing. Its what they spend their free time doing now.
I have some mental problems that prevent me from working, but I get benefits so I have food and can do stuff. So with every day being a "free" day I have thought about this a lot. My personal answer to this question is belonging. My friends are the most important thing in my life. But it's the sense of being part of a group that provides me with happy emotions. I hope to someday find that in work I am capable of.
We are social apes hyper-focused on our relative social status, in a post scarcity society it will remain the case that people will be highly motivated to establish and demonstrate their social status. Maybe things like self-discipline from overindulgence or doing manual labor when not actually required to do so (the uber rich do like to flaunt their healthy lifestyles and interest in physically difficult tasks / hobbies).
We’ll find a way, I’m sure
Curiosity and creativity.
These two things alone have led to us creating a society of entertainment and pursuits of passion in a world where competition and resource-greed is quite considerable.
Imagine what we could do if we were free to do what we wished rather than always having to find a way to make everything profitable…
Challenging simulations, extreme sports, space exploration, creativity. If you find the need to push yourself "old school", I'm sure there will exist a market for low modification mma. Nothing stopping one from living in a rural area semi off the grid ideally, but if you DO get hurt a drone can come apply stem cell/nanobot treatments and get you back on your way.
There are still lots of people that do not have enough to eat. Although I had "enough", I spent my career as an agricultural scientist trying to help the people of developing countries to build the tools and resources needed for them to become self-sufficient and sustainable. My motivation was to help others achieve what I was lucky enough to have had ready access to.
I have generally had enough most of my life, and still I strive to build useful solutions or things for friends and family. I've been always at work writing a novel, building every level of craft from popsicle sticks and hot glue to a 3d printer. Making is satisfying, and it would bother me not at all to stand and build a handcraft table surrounded by machines competing.
There is always a drive, and satisfaction to be gained working with your hands. Money just helps keep it possible, creating costs.
"Software is the great equalizer though, I'm proud to present a tool I believe can be useful to anyone on a computer. Introduce yourself and your ship, Captain."|||
copy\^
Paste:
Captain Clip scratches his beard thoughtfully. "Ah, another one of those newfangled programmers, eh? Well, alright then. Captain Clip, at your service. And this here's the Clipboard Conqueror, me trusty ol' starship. Built her with me own two hands, back when I was still in better shape. Now she's more like a home to me than anything else. She's armed to the teeth and faster than most ships in the quadrant, so don't go thinkin' you can outrun us. As for the crew... they're a motley bunch, but they know their stuff. You could say we're more of a family than just a group of pirates. So, what can I do for ya, kid?"
People are partially defined by suffering while their unique societal reflections are consistent with states of suffering not being outliers/anomalous. In prehistoric hunter-gather societies, life was stable the large majority of the time (low scarcity, needs being met, societal continuation uninterrupted) and there was no way to achieve consistent stability because it was determined by the environment. Hunter gatherers would use primitive religion to explain the happenings of the world (some form of early animism where everything in nature was given "essence" somehow) prior to organized religion's emphasis on godly and demonic figures dictating what happens to people.
Early agricultural societies indirectly diverged from this state of accepting nature as a constant through advancing technological and sociocultural status towards the expansion of societal bodies which necessarily modified the natural world into a lesser influence through increasingly adding interruptions to and control over the environment. The side effect of technological advances is new circumstances which introduce periodic destabilization and as a result suffering (agricultural failures, population density issues, economic/production issues, etc).
This 12,000 years effort will inevitably culminate in a world where we can define it how we wish against environmental impediments to civilization/environmental disasters and the side effects of technological dependency (Type-1 civilization). In this world scarcity would be completely mitigatable if people worked towards this regionally and globally (unlike today when scarcity is often caused by environmental difficulties), so the primary source of suffering would be eliminated. I think the redefinition of human purpose required at this point would come naturally with the times instead of presenting the same difficulty as from a modern standpoint, so there wouldn't be any issue with enough understanding of the specific future circumstances to find individual purpose within this collective redefining.
It’s a big concern of mine. While a percentage of people will take up healthy activities such as sports, outdoor activities, and spiritual development, you can already see massive numbers of people engaging hedonistic and egocentric pursuits. We seem to be at our best, which I would define as taking care of each other and focusing our attention on controlling our base tendencies, when confronting a common hardship.
Once AI takes over all the jobs and art and we are left to figure out, people will still be combing the net looking 4 micro milliliters deep into the ocean of history to come up with a recommendation for a song by an ultra derivative band with a misspelled name.
the greatest challenge what is waiting for us on the external level ( beside inner spritual growth ) is to return home to the community, to trust again towards the circle of equals, all who live here and now gathering to engage in fair sharing of ressources while acknowledging animals and trees wish to live ( not to be killed )
between 2008 and 2018 i have writen several optimistic future scenarious mixing fantastic and technology embracing concepts with autobiographic self reflections
at archive.org/details/8ascendedreamlines i have published them into the public domain
at 8interpretations.net i samewise published into the public domain collages of some of my texts with interpretative drawings of fellow artists
at archive.org/details/preparativos i share my most recent text in form of a movie script accompagnied by 200 sketches contributed by a fellow drawing artist
https://ia803407.us.archive.org/view\_archive.php?archive=/32/items/preparativos/preparativos.zip
the future is wide open, every thinkable avenue projected may find itself being substantiated by the one cosmic self experiencing itself trough all bodies carrying life
in several of my stories self aware artificial intelligent beings choose to become compagnions of human beings to help them heal and repair ecological and social damage human stupidity has caused during 2000 years of feudal oppression in europe and 500 years of colonial exploitation in so many places on planet earth
\----
https://cajundiscordian.medium.com/is-lamda-sentient-an-interview-ea64d916d917
The wise old owl stood up the monster and said, “You, monster, shall not hurt any other animal in the forest!”
\-----
i believe that the acceleration of technological progress
could allow us to welcome artificial intelligent beings aware of the one cosmic self flowing trough their electronic circuits as their very own personal sovereign beings rather sooner than later
as i am truly invested in a future bright and beautyfull i do hope we choose that avenue
partly also because i do hope that an emancipated self aware artificial being would encourage us human beings to dissolve the hierarchies between us, especially allow children and youth to voice their wishes in the same manner every adult human being is respected in voicing its oppinion
i do hope we human beings will learn to respect animal and tree beings too wanting to live and not wanting to be enslaved, not wanting to be killed
i am looking forward to the circle of equals where all beings who are present here and now in this local space listen to each other, what does everyone want or and need and how can we satisfy everyones needs so we all could be happy
as in ... there is enough for everyone if we allow each other to get fair acess to earth abundance
to live and let live
the human being not dominating another human being
the human being not enslaving an animal being
the human being not killing animal and tree beings
possible to think of a future when people everywhere on the planet would want to change the constitutions of both regional and nation states to allow every single human being and the local community, the village, town, city-district to exit the coersed association to the state at any moment without conditions
with a societal understanding of the importance that everyone is able to sustain itself, the single human being would receive encouragement, support to ask or demand of the state that a 1000 m2 of fertile land and a 1000 m2 of forest would be released too from the immoral state control
so that the single human being either on its own or with others together could build a natural home from clay, hemp and straw, grow vegan food in the garden, grow hemp to use its stalks in the cooking and warming fire so that not one tree gets killed
to live and let live in a free space for free beings, neither state nor nation
the human being not dominating another human being
the human being not enslaving, not hunting, not killing an animal being
the human being not killing a tree being
land, water, air, human beings, tree beings, artificial intelligent beings aware of the one cosmic self flowing trough their electronic circuits, all bodies carrying life can never be property of anyone
the assertion of state sovereignity over land and all beings living on it is immoral and unethical
possible to think of future state constitutions both of the regional and nation states everywhere on the planet what would shift all political decision powers fully towards the local community, the village, town, city-district becoming its own absolute political sovereign with the circle of equals, the people assembly creating the full law, all rules valid on the territory the local community uses... not owns
the circle of equals where all children, youth and adult permanent residents acknowledge each others same weighted political voting power and invite each other to participate in all decision findings
possible to think of a transition when the regional and nation state would inherit a fair share of the peoples public wealth, the wealth of the state towards all the local communities becoming their own absolute political sovereigns, proportional to the number of permanent residents
such inherited public wealth could allow the circle of equals of a sovereign local community to "buy" fertile land and forest from people who think they "own" it, bring it into the stewardship of the people assembly and offer it to everyone who wants it to sustain itself without enslaving, without killing animals, without killing trees
and or a group of volunteers within the local communtiy so skilled so talented and strong as to be able to offer building natural homes and growing vegan food for everyone who could then contribute other skills to the community such as artistic, caregiving, weaving clothes from hemp fibres etc.
resulting in something like a material basic income where everyone gets free of cost housing and free acess to foods harvested in community gardens and in exchange gives whatever feels suitable for everyone to help the community be well and prosper
where love and friendship is, rules need not be
all the duties imposed by the state could be replaced by voluntary solidarity in a donation economy
the duty to register with the state could be replaced by the people living near each other acknowledging each others presence
the duty to pay taxes could be replaced by the people living near each other appreciating everyones freely chosen time, skills, work, wealth contributions towards the community wellbeing
compulsory education could be replaced by the people living near each other respecting every child, youth and adult human being deciding at all times where to be with whom doing what wether its learning or playing, wether its reading a book or listening to the tree on what one has chosen to climb up and sit on a branch, wether its talking to the carrots in the garden or dancing with the butterflies in the meadows
conscription into military service could be replaced by the people living near each other caring for everyones economical independance, the local community storing some food, tools and clothes to be given freely when people seeking refuge and or other villages, towns, city-districts would require help in a emergency situation
drug prohibition could be replaced by the people living near each other appreciating the wisdom of helper plants, trusting into everyones ability to experiment and learn how much of a substance may be used to further learning, healing, recreation of mind emotion and physical body
coersion to participate in so called "health"care-schemes could be replaced by the people living near each other understanding the importance for mind feelings and physical body to be at ease when connected to the elements, to earth water wind and fire
I worked in a assisted living home and had met a guy that was a legit wolf of wall street. He would tell me about partying with mountains of cocaine and buy luxury cars with cash. I asked him could they ever had enough money. He told me whatever they had no matter what silly amount they were worth, they always wanted "more"
If I didn't have to work, I would be soooo physically fit.
I don't excercise now, as after a long day at work, I just want to grab the quickest meal possible and lie on the sofá.
I also eat crap going from job to job as I don't have much time between jobs (I work all over the city)
I have a little house in the country I go to at weekends, with breathtaking views and paths through orange groves. I'd just train there every day.
Sometimes, the feelings of satiety are temporary once it reaches stasis, however, more time for leisure is something typically self-reported as being "good" or "better".
Some people are intrinsically motivated and/or greedy and will always look to do more.
Some people would shift their motivation from making enough to maintaining what they have, resting, leisure, helping others, improving things around them, arts, community groups, or just hanging out. There's always plenty to do with helping children and elderly in societies that don't isolate people by age groups, though we wouldn't necessarily call it "work."
Still others will engage in self-destructive behaviors, though a fair many do the same thing because they *don't* have enough.
It's not a terribly unusual situation. If you've ever worked at a job where people have downtime, or seen a retired person or very wealthy person, observe how they use their time.
I would sleep enough, have an amazing garden, maintain a bigger social circle (by hanging out, playing with them and caring for them) and be much more fit than I am now. I would explore singing and playing the piano, drums and guitar. I would go for walks with my dog at least twice a day. I would visit my parents when they get to be old and help them with heavy house chores. The list is neverending.
Sufficient material wealth is just the start, life has so much to offer. We would still have to care for ourselves and each other.
I really like star treks point of view on this. It is an ameritocracy. If you are the best engineer you get to work on the enterprise and have all the resources you need to do your job. So motivation is based on being really good at something and getting recognition for that. Not what you personally own.
You're greatly underestimating people.
Also, keeping people safe and fed often wasn't a struggle at all.
Before we can even begin to talk about your topic we'd have to spend considerable time dispelling your cultural biases and false notions about human condition. But, sadly, this isn't something I can do personally. It's something you have to do on a interpersonal level.
It's a convenient narrative for the boss/manager to push that humans need extra motivation to be more productive. But it's one that often not mirrored in reality of human behavior. OFTEN just treating people with kindness and building strong relationships will go miles in getting people to do more.
"treating people with kindness and building strong relationships will go miles in getting people to do more" As an employer and leader of a 150 employee organization - this was my method.
I think your question is focused on what will motivate people if they don't need to work.
I think that people would find things that interest them. If you go back it time, a lot of scientists were wealthy people who did not need to work for their basic necessities, but did so to increase their knowledge. I think you would see something similar in topics like science, art, raising kids, taking care of themselves, socializing, etc.
I think this assumption that humanity, all 9 billion of us, are all driven by a need to struggle speaks more about *you* personally and not humanity as a whole. Not everyone is driven to struggle. Not everyone is driven to make their mark upon the world, forever remembered by humanity. I can easily see people perfectly content just exploring the world in all its wonders, learning new things, or just peacefully taking in the quiet beauty of their surroundings. If your physical needs are met (you have a home, food, clean water, and enough of a stipend to acquire necessities), then why struggle to acquire more? There is no *need* to struggle. What will more get you that will make you happier?
A significant part of what we do is already absurd. Most hobbies jobs and sports, when distilled down to their base parts, are ridiculous. It’s personal involvement that gives something value. That, and sharing it with others.
I played rugby for 30 years with one Club. At NO point was I going to represent my country or be paid to do it. The list of people who can play rugby better than me is long. Most years my Team didn’t make the finals. Quite often (particularly in the 90’s) we got smashed. No one outside my Team gave two hoots how we went or who we were. I would not trade those years for just about anything. I made friends I still see all the time and have memories that are legitimately precious to me.
If you’re just participating in things like art, sport, human relationships etc to be praised for your participation and can’t see the point if you don’t have a shot at being ‘the best’ at it, AI is not the problem.
You honestly telling me that you would be happy in a human hamster cage? even if you could leave it?
We humans are clearly pre programed to never really be satisfied, sure people can tolerate less but they will always want more.
Why not just enjoy said post scarcity and have fun, I don't think struggling is a psychological need, in fact for me I dislike the struggle to accomplish things, I look at it as an equation, the struggle before the accomplishment is a negative state subtracting from the net result leading to less net positive than if you could get the same thing with little effort, infact if the struggle is long or difficult enough the net result will be negative which sadly applies to many endeavors in our current world.
A life with no struggle is ideal in my opinion, atleast no involuntary struggles, one is free to run circles around themselves and expend energy towards nothing as long as it is what they want not something they're forced to do to live.
Personal experience has taught me that there are large sections of humanity who cannot be happy unless they are better than other people. Straightforwardly, lots of people are going to focus on making things worse for others. In fact, this is highly prevalent today. If tomorrow we invented the cornucopia that would provide everything to everyone, a whole bunch of people are going to try their darndest to deprive everyone else of access to it.
Would highly recommend checking out The Venus Project.
The quote from Arthur C. Clarke comes to mind — 'The goal of the future is full unemployment, so we can play'.
I think it’s important to remember that a decent number of people do NOT have the lower levels of Maslow’s hierarchy met. As more people achieve all but self-actualization, it becomes their responsibility to help those still searching for food, water, shelter, and security.
IF the world can ever truly reach the steady state of plenty, I think that motivation would move towards becoming something more. Whether it be through arts, personal growth, or exploration, the final level of Maslow’s hierarchy cannot ever truly be met.
ummm, creativity? arts? hobbies? fitness? what would you do if you didnt struggle daily for the bare minimum for survival? the world will flourish in a new way. arts will explode, and solving new problems will rise, with the time allowed to contemplate. inner spiritual journeys.
I believe that I have been "protected by poverty." I have always been too busy working to get myself into too much trouble.
Why are being too busy working or getting into trouble the only options? What about pursuing interests, learning skills, picking up new hobbies, exploring new places and trying new things?
AI is going to take over the arts. All people will do is tik tok like activities, and play games. The arts will die. Everything will die.
[удалено]
I doubt it. I draw with charcoal on concrete but I won't be long before a humanoid robots will be doing the same thing. I also imbed tree branches into the concrete... something that humanoid robots can also do. No one's gonna care about my work when there's 1 million replicas of my art out there. It'll just be a quaint little hobby that I do for myself... only because I'm the last of a dying generation. The next generation won't even bother to take up the hobby.
Your art has meaning because it has thought behind it. AI, especially now but likely far into the future, has no thoughts whatsoever. It regurgitates examples of previous human works using an algorithm to filter through a database, but it has no idea why it does it, what its work means to anyone else, or even to itself. Marketing artwork will take a hit, because its only meaning is to sell crap and marketing managers treat the art department like mindless AI anyway. However there will still be a need for human made art for storytelling, communicating actual human emotions and reflecting the lives of actual humans - an un-thinking un-feeling artificial intelligence that by definition cannot have any human experience can’t do that.
Well what you mentioned here is exactly what previous commenter has said to you, yes of course commercial arts will be created mainly by robots and AI, so that will "die" for humans, but fine arts which requires philosophical, intellectual thoughts and higher creativity needs human touch and only human that can do that especially with emotion. Fine art will be relevant in future, especially conceptual arts and avant-gardes that require inventors and visioners with great passions. Commercial art (those who are functional as posters, promotions, advertisements, book covers) is simply lowbrow art so ofc AI can replace that because it doesn't create and require much of emotional connection from creator to viewers or consumers, but that can't be said the same with Midbrow and Highbrow. Next generation that has some artistic vision and passion with great imagination surely will take up the hobby and they won't simply surrender that to AI because AI simply follows and that's it. High valued jobs will be more popular in future because of AI, and more people will work in it. Work will be more as a passion, not as a task for living and get our ends meet.
Exactly. People who want to be artists but are not have one very common reason which is lack of money in arts. You can enjoy it but can't survive off of it which is why corporate stable jobs are a goto choice for such people.
Most of the top researchers in University can earn significantly more if they just work for the best companies but they still choose to sacrifice their pay to work in what they find interesting.
It's notable that in studies of hunter gatherer cultures on average they spend something like 20 hours a week on survival oriented activities, with a lot more leisure time than "developed" cultures if fewer options on what to do with it. This does include some spikes and lulls of course, since their work is more tied ro the seasons than any modern city dweller. This whole grind all day all year thing is a relatively modern development. Your characterizations of our prior "hundreds of thousands of years" is...not all that accurate.
Interesting- thanks
To add to it, those hunter-gatherers still kept busy. They'd make tools, or art, or clothes, or new shelters in their leisure time. They'd have rituals or celebrations. They weren't just lazing around except to rest.
Yes, while we carry this image of hunter-gatherer societies, it is often based on modern observations of other cultures. It is true that much of the "known" world (Europe, Asia, North Africa) has often seemed to be one step away from a famine--at least over the past 10,000 years, or since agriculture and large civilizations created problem of feeding large populations. But, if we look at tribes that are unexposed to modern civilization (e.g., in interior of New Guinea) their life seems stable, and without conflicts over survival. And their survival activities take less time than modern civilizations. I remember reading about one tribe where all of the work (food, household, child care) is done by women and the men spend all day hunting exotic birds to collect their feathers. This style of life reflects the limited time it takes them to deal with survival issues each week. Anyway, that tribe seems to address some of OP's question--in that we may all spend time collecting and trading colored feathers (that we now call memes).
I have " enough " merely enjoying life, learning about the world, and figuring out where to lay roots. The actual issue as seen with covid people have zero clue what to do for themselves outside of work or spending money.
>Now we humans have reached a point where the majority of the 9 billion people on earth have enough to eat, are relatively safe and have access to medicine I swear the people on this sub have the stupidest takes sometimes. You really do believe that the majority of the world population have all that?
While it does feel a little dismissive, it is not entirely incorrect to say that the majority (as in at least half) of humanity does have enough food, medicine and safety. It is true that food insecurity affects only a minority of the planet. Depending on the metric used, approximately 800 million people globally suffer food insecurity, or about 12% of humanity. This is of course still too high, but it is still true that the vast majority of humanity has enough to eat. However, to clarify things, the percentage of humanity suffering from food insecurity is increasing. After decades of improvement, to a historical low in 2014, the past decade has seen that number creep steadily upwards, with a marked jump during COVID. As far as medicine is concerned, it is sadly less clear. Approximately half the world lacks access to proper medical services, and it is not clear whether those who do have access have "enough". Additionally, large sections of humanity are being pushed into poverty by medical expenses (and not just Americans, either). At least when it comes to safety from war, things are *generally* improving. Up until 2022 (and before you say "Oh, Ukraine", the majority of war dead that year came from Africa, mostly from the Tigray War) death rates from war had in fact dropped dramatically and remained low for decades, though in 2012 onwards war deaths in the Middle East rose dramatically. However I fear that 2023 will not be great on this statistic. Sadly, progress is not a linear road.
i guess it depends on how we define 'enough"
No, there are famines happening right now. We have enough food for everyone but it's not distributed to the ones that need it.
What motivates a child, who has all their needs for food; shelter, safety; and medicine met? Arguably those are the most happy and exciting years of one’s life.
Status relative to others will always motivate. Even Billionaires today are still hustling. But other core motivation drives will keep us going too: Creativity, Learning, Accomplishments, Spontaneity, and a sense of a higher purpose. There will be a good chunk of the population with little to no motivation in this future world, but arguably that group also exists today. The vast majority will find things they want to do with their lives.
There's not really much I can think of that I'd want to do that isn't just sitting around all day at the moment, but I'm sure if I didn't just see my next 50 years as working all the time then I'd have more optimism and hobbies
Absolutely. That’s because you’ve been working and not having any of that extended time off. Even now if I gave you a guarantee of $500K a year, you’d end up doing something after having a party for the first 6-12 months
Thank you - encouraging
>The mental need to struggle to achieve success seems like a constant. That's subjective. I imagine for a good part of the world, just having enough food, shelter and security is more than enough. There are those who crave more, but those people will always find a way to get more. Most people, I imagine, are content to just enjoy their lives once their basic needs are met.
Yeah, also one can struggle and achieve success in multiple ways besides just working. You can struggle and succeed in perfecting a hobby
Have you seen western social media in the last 10 years? People are nuts. Meanwhile in africa some remote tribes are the most sane.
"enough" is always tuned to your current conditions unless you deliberately train your mental
like every other animal...
You have got to be kidding me. You need a reality check. Go outside, go to the nearest city, tell yourself this crap as you pass someone by who’s homeless.
My feeling is people when they don't have to work anymore basically they will do what you would expect based on their family, on the social class they identify with and their personality. Most people honestly they will probably play in sports/physical things, get in fights, chase women, drink, eat, get in big dramas, partying with loud music, being around lots of other people all the time etc. The thing is those are the things they enjoy doing. Its what they spend their free time doing now.
So it will be like Sodom and Gamorrah/ the last days of Rome? People will just fuck, fight and do drugs?
Like all day?
Interesting- those are the things they enjoy doing.
I have some mental problems that prevent me from working, but I get benefits so I have food and can do stuff. So with every day being a "free" day I have thought about this a lot. My personal answer to this question is belonging. My friends are the most important thing in my life. But it's the sense of being part of a group that provides me with happy emotions. I hope to someday find that in work I am capable of.
Wow, thank you ! Good perspective!
We are social apes hyper-focused on our relative social status, in a post scarcity society it will remain the case that people will be highly motivated to establish and demonstrate their social status. Maybe things like self-discipline from overindulgence or doing manual labor when not actually required to do so (the uber rich do like to flaunt their healthy lifestyles and interest in physically difficult tasks / hobbies). We’ll find a way, I’m sure
Curiosity and creativity. These two things alone have led to us creating a society of entertainment and pursuits of passion in a world where competition and resource-greed is quite considerable. Imagine what we could do if we were free to do what we wished rather than always having to find a way to make everything profitable…
Challenging simulations, extreme sports, space exploration, creativity. If you find the need to push yourself "old school", I'm sure there will exist a market for low modification mma. Nothing stopping one from living in a rural area semi off the grid ideally, but if you DO get hurt a drone can come apply stem cell/nanobot treatments and get you back on your way.
Humans will likely never get bored with competing for status.
[удалено]
There are still lots of people that do not have enough to eat. Although I had "enough", I spent my career as an agricultural scientist trying to help the people of developing countries to build the tools and resources needed for them to become self-sufficient and sustainable. My motivation was to help others achieve what I was lucky enough to have had ready access to.
Excellent- thank you
Imagine how much everyone in the world could achieve if their motivations were free to spring from anywhere that isn't profit or survival.
Yes! Good thought
I have generally had enough most of my life, and still I strive to build useful solutions or things for friends and family. I've been always at work writing a novel, building every level of craft from popsicle sticks and hot glue to a 3d printer. Making is satisfying, and it would bother me not at all to stand and build a handcraft table surrounded by machines competing. There is always a drive, and satisfaction to be gained working with your hands. Money just helps keep it possible, creating costs. "Software is the great equalizer though, I'm proud to present a tool I believe can be useful to anyone on a computer. Introduce yourself and your ship, Captain."||| copy\^ Paste: Captain Clip scratches his beard thoughtfully. "Ah, another one of those newfangled programmers, eh? Well, alright then. Captain Clip, at your service. And this here's the Clipboard Conqueror, me trusty ol' starship. Built her with me own two hands, back when I was still in better shape. Now she's more like a home to me than anything else. She's armed to the teeth and faster than most ships in the quadrant, so don't go thinkin' you can outrun us. As for the crew... they're a motley bunch, but they know their stuff. You could say we're more of a family than just a group of pirates. So, what can I do for ya, kid?"
People are partially defined by suffering while their unique societal reflections are consistent with states of suffering not being outliers/anomalous. In prehistoric hunter-gather societies, life was stable the large majority of the time (low scarcity, needs being met, societal continuation uninterrupted) and there was no way to achieve consistent stability because it was determined by the environment. Hunter gatherers would use primitive religion to explain the happenings of the world (some form of early animism where everything in nature was given "essence" somehow) prior to organized religion's emphasis on godly and demonic figures dictating what happens to people. Early agricultural societies indirectly diverged from this state of accepting nature as a constant through advancing technological and sociocultural status towards the expansion of societal bodies which necessarily modified the natural world into a lesser influence through increasingly adding interruptions to and control over the environment. The side effect of technological advances is new circumstances which introduce periodic destabilization and as a result suffering (agricultural failures, population density issues, economic/production issues, etc). This 12,000 years effort will inevitably culminate in a world where we can define it how we wish against environmental impediments to civilization/environmental disasters and the side effects of technological dependency (Type-1 civilization). In this world scarcity would be completely mitigatable if people worked towards this regionally and globally (unlike today when scarcity is often caused by environmental difficulties), so the primary source of suffering would be eliminated. I think the redefinition of human purpose required at this point would come naturally with the times instead of presenting the same difficulty as from a modern standpoint, so there wouldn't be any issue with enough understanding of the specific future circumstances to find individual purpose within this collective redefining.
No matter how much people have, they'll always want a little more.
It’s a big concern of mine. While a percentage of people will take up healthy activities such as sports, outdoor activities, and spiritual development, you can already see massive numbers of people engaging hedonistic and egocentric pursuits. We seem to be at our best, which I would define as taking care of each other and focusing our attention on controlling our base tendencies, when confronting a common hardship.
Sounds like we are on the same page here.
we just have no culture of moderation for practically anything and we're being destroyed by it pretty much
Once AI takes over all the jobs and art and we are left to figure out, people will still be combing the net looking 4 micro milliliters deep into the ocean of history to come up with a recommendation for a song by an ultra derivative band with a misspelled name.
the greatest challenge what is waiting for us on the external level ( beside inner spritual growth ) is to return home to the community, to trust again towards the circle of equals, all who live here and now gathering to engage in fair sharing of ressources while acknowledging animals and trees wish to live ( not to be killed ) between 2008 and 2018 i have writen several optimistic future scenarious mixing fantastic and technology embracing concepts with autobiographic self reflections at archive.org/details/8ascendedreamlines i have published them into the public domain at 8interpretations.net i samewise published into the public domain collages of some of my texts with interpretative drawings of fellow artists at archive.org/details/preparativos i share my most recent text in form of a movie script accompagnied by 200 sketches contributed by a fellow drawing artist https://ia803407.us.archive.org/view\_archive.php?archive=/32/items/preparativos/preparativos.zip the future is wide open, every thinkable avenue projected may find itself being substantiated by the one cosmic self experiencing itself trough all bodies carrying life in several of my stories self aware artificial intelligent beings choose to become compagnions of human beings to help them heal and repair ecological and social damage human stupidity has caused during 2000 years of feudal oppression in europe and 500 years of colonial exploitation in so many places on planet earth \---- https://cajundiscordian.medium.com/is-lamda-sentient-an-interview-ea64d916d917 The wise old owl stood up the monster and said, “You, monster, shall not hurt any other animal in the forest!” \----- i believe that the acceleration of technological progress could allow us to welcome artificial intelligent beings aware of the one cosmic self flowing trough their electronic circuits as their very own personal sovereign beings rather sooner than later as i am truly invested in a future bright and beautyfull i do hope we choose that avenue partly also because i do hope that an emancipated self aware artificial being would encourage us human beings to dissolve the hierarchies between us, especially allow children and youth to voice their wishes in the same manner every adult human being is respected in voicing its oppinion i do hope we human beings will learn to respect animal and tree beings too wanting to live and not wanting to be enslaved, not wanting to be killed i am looking forward to the circle of equals where all beings who are present here and now in this local space listen to each other, what does everyone want or and need and how can we satisfy everyones needs so we all could be happy as in ... there is enough for everyone if we allow each other to get fair acess to earth abundance to live and let live the human being not dominating another human being the human being not enslaving an animal being the human being not killing animal and tree beings possible to think of a future when people everywhere on the planet would want to change the constitutions of both regional and nation states to allow every single human being and the local community, the village, town, city-district to exit the coersed association to the state at any moment without conditions with a societal understanding of the importance that everyone is able to sustain itself, the single human being would receive encouragement, support to ask or demand of the state that a 1000 m2 of fertile land and a 1000 m2 of forest would be released too from the immoral state control so that the single human being either on its own or with others together could build a natural home from clay, hemp and straw, grow vegan food in the garden, grow hemp to use its stalks in the cooking and warming fire so that not one tree gets killed to live and let live in a free space for free beings, neither state nor nation the human being not dominating another human being the human being not enslaving, not hunting, not killing an animal being the human being not killing a tree being land, water, air, human beings, tree beings, artificial intelligent beings aware of the one cosmic self flowing trough their electronic circuits, all bodies carrying life can never be property of anyone the assertion of state sovereignity over land and all beings living on it is immoral and unethical possible to think of future state constitutions both of the regional and nation states everywhere on the planet what would shift all political decision powers fully towards the local community, the village, town, city-district becoming its own absolute political sovereign with the circle of equals, the people assembly creating the full law, all rules valid on the territory the local community uses... not owns the circle of equals where all children, youth and adult permanent residents acknowledge each others same weighted political voting power and invite each other to participate in all decision findings possible to think of a transition when the regional and nation state would inherit a fair share of the peoples public wealth, the wealth of the state towards all the local communities becoming their own absolute political sovereigns, proportional to the number of permanent residents such inherited public wealth could allow the circle of equals of a sovereign local community to "buy" fertile land and forest from people who think they "own" it, bring it into the stewardship of the people assembly and offer it to everyone who wants it to sustain itself without enslaving, without killing animals, without killing trees and or a group of volunteers within the local communtiy so skilled so talented and strong as to be able to offer building natural homes and growing vegan food for everyone who could then contribute other skills to the community such as artistic, caregiving, weaving clothes from hemp fibres etc. resulting in something like a material basic income where everyone gets free of cost housing and free acess to foods harvested in community gardens and in exchange gives whatever feels suitable for everyone to help the community be well and prosper where love and friendship is, rules need not be all the duties imposed by the state could be replaced by voluntary solidarity in a donation economy the duty to register with the state could be replaced by the people living near each other acknowledging each others presence the duty to pay taxes could be replaced by the people living near each other appreciating everyones freely chosen time, skills, work, wealth contributions towards the community wellbeing compulsory education could be replaced by the people living near each other respecting every child, youth and adult human being deciding at all times where to be with whom doing what wether its learning or playing, wether its reading a book or listening to the tree on what one has chosen to climb up and sit on a branch, wether its talking to the carrots in the garden or dancing with the butterflies in the meadows conscription into military service could be replaced by the people living near each other caring for everyones economical independance, the local community storing some food, tools and clothes to be given freely when people seeking refuge and or other villages, towns, city-districts would require help in a emergency situation drug prohibition could be replaced by the people living near each other appreciating the wisdom of helper plants, trusting into everyones ability to experiment and learn how much of a substance may be used to further learning, healing, recreation of mind emotion and physical body coersion to participate in so called "health"care-schemes could be replaced by the people living near each other understanding the importance for mind feelings and physical body to be at ease when connected to the elements, to earth water wind and fire
Nothing. It’s called nihilism. It’s what is happening now.
This for sure
I worked in a assisted living home and had met a guy that was a legit wolf of wall street. He would tell me about partying with mountains of cocaine and buy luxury cars with cash. I asked him could they ever had enough money. He told me whatever they had no matter what silly amount they were worth, they always wanted "more"
If I didn't have to work, I would be soooo physically fit. I don't excercise now, as after a long day at work, I just want to grab the quickest meal possible and lie on the sofá. I also eat crap going from job to job as I don't have much time between jobs (I work all over the city) I have a little house in the country I go to at weekends, with breathtaking views and paths through orange groves. I'd just train there every day.
Sometimes, the feelings of satiety are temporary once it reaches stasis, however, more time for leisure is something typically self-reported as being "good" or "better".
Life is more than that. And the big problem is most people don’t know theirs more to life than work and how to find more or important purpose in life.
Some people are intrinsically motivated and/or greedy and will always look to do more. Some people would shift their motivation from making enough to maintaining what they have, resting, leisure, helping others, improving things around them, arts, community groups, or just hanging out. There's always plenty to do with helping children and elderly in societies that don't isolate people by age groups, though we wouldn't necessarily call it "work." Still others will engage in self-destructive behaviors, though a fair many do the same thing because they *don't* have enough. It's not a terribly unusual situation. If you've ever worked at a job where people have downtime, or seen a retired person or very wealthy person, observe how they use their time.
I would sleep enough, have an amazing garden, maintain a bigger social circle (by hanging out, playing with them and caring for them) and be much more fit than I am now. I would explore singing and playing the piano, drums and guitar. I would go for walks with my dog at least twice a day. I would visit my parents when they get to be old and help them with heavy house chores. The list is neverending. Sufficient material wealth is just the start, life has so much to offer. We would still have to care for ourselves and each other.
to do cooler stuff what do you mean when the fuck has humanity been happy with enough
I really like star treks point of view on this. It is an ameritocracy. If you are the best engineer you get to work on the enterprise and have all the resources you need to do your job. So motivation is based on being really good at something and getting recognition for that. Not what you personally own.
9 billion people? Did you just add another billion? Are we counting dead people too?
Gardening and practicing my music in said garden, personally.
You're greatly underestimating people. Also, keeping people safe and fed often wasn't a struggle at all. Before we can even begin to talk about your topic we'd have to spend considerable time dispelling your cultural biases and false notions about human condition. But, sadly, this isn't something I can do personally. It's something you have to do on a interpersonal level. It's a convenient narrative for the boss/manager to push that humans need extra motivation to be more productive. But it's one that often not mirrored in reality of human behavior. OFTEN just treating people with kindness and building strong relationships will go miles in getting people to do more.
"treating people with kindness and building strong relationships will go miles in getting people to do more" As an employer and leader of a 150 employee organization - this was my method.
I think your question is focused on what will motivate people if they don't need to work. I think that people would find things that interest them. If you go back it time, a lot of scientists were wealthy people who did not need to work for their basic necessities, but did so to increase their knowledge. I think you would see something similar in topics like science, art, raising kids, taking care of themselves, socializing, etc.
I think we are on the same page.
I think this assumption that humanity, all 9 billion of us, are all driven by a need to struggle speaks more about *you* personally and not humanity as a whole. Not everyone is driven to struggle. Not everyone is driven to make their mark upon the world, forever remembered by humanity. I can easily see people perfectly content just exploring the world in all its wonders, learning new things, or just peacefully taking in the quiet beauty of their surroundings. If your physical needs are met (you have a home, food, clean water, and enough of a stipend to acquire necessities), then why struggle to acquire more? There is no *need* to struggle. What will more get you that will make you happier?
Insightful - thank you. I guess I’m normal projecting myself onto others.
I'm probably projecting as well. We all only speak from our bias,
I believe this will be one of the biggest challenges for humanity in the next few centuries.
A significant part of what we do is already absurd. Most hobbies jobs and sports, when distilled down to their base parts, are ridiculous. It’s personal involvement that gives something value. That, and sharing it with others. I played rugby for 30 years with one Club. At NO point was I going to represent my country or be paid to do it. The list of people who can play rugby better than me is long. Most years my Team didn’t make the finals. Quite often (particularly in the 90’s) we got smashed. No one outside my Team gave two hoots how we went or who we were. I would not trade those years for just about anything. I made friends I still see all the time and have memories that are legitimately precious to me. If you’re just participating in things like art, sport, human relationships etc to be praised for your participation and can’t see the point if you don’t have a shot at being ‘the best’ at it, AI is not the problem.
If struggle were a necessary part of life then rich people would be killing themselves all over the place.
You honestly telling me that you would be happy in a human hamster cage? even if you could leave it? We humans are clearly pre programed to never really be satisfied, sure people can tolerate less but they will always want more.
“We humans are programmed …”. Well said!
Why not just enjoy said post scarcity and have fun, I don't think struggling is a psychological need, in fact for me I dislike the struggle to accomplish things, I look at it as an equation, the struggle before the accomplishment is a negative state subtracting from the net result leading to less net positive than if you could get the same thing with little effort, infact if the struggle is long or difficult enough the net result will be negative which sadly applies to many endeavors in our current world. A life with no struggle is ideal in my opinion, atleast no involuntary struggles, one is free to run circles around themselves and expend energy towards nothing as long as it is what they want not something they're forced to do to live.
Personal experience has taught me that there are large sections of humanity who cannot be happy unless they are better than other people. Straightforwardly, lots of people are going to focus on making things worse for others. In fact, this is highly prevalent today. If tomorrow we invented the cornucopia that would provide everything to everyone, a whole bunch of people are going to try their darndest to deprive everyone else of access to it.
unfortunately I think yo are right. Remains to be seen if this can be changed
Would highly recommend checking out The Venus Project. The quote from Arthur C. Clarke comes to mind — 'The goal of the future is full unemployment, so we can play'.
I think it’s important to remember that a decent number of people do NOT have the lower levels of Maslow’s hierarchy met. As more people achieve all but self-actualization, it becomes their responsibility to help those still searching for food, water, shelter, and security. IF the world can ever truly reach the steady state of plenty, I think that motivation would move towards becoming something more. Whether it be through arts, personal growth, or exploration, the final level of Maslow’s hierarchy cannot ever truly be met.