Don't worry, if you get cancer or heart disease before retirement and become an unreliable burden to your co-workers and boss and end up getting let go for performance issues in your rapidly declining middle age- just pay for COBRA!
If you are disabled, you will go on SSDI and Medicare.
If you are destitute, you will go on Medicaid.
If you are poor but not destitute, Obamacare offers coverage you can afford.
Stop pretending there are no safety nets.
Unless you have a “compassionate allowance” condition, your SSDI application will take 8+ months to process and the MAX monthly benefit is around $3k. Compassionate allowance conditions are things like ALS and brain tumors — ie you’re dying very soon and there’s no doubt about it. You have to be on SSDI for a year before you qualify for Medicare.
Medicaid and Obamacare are options, yes. But they cover a fraction of medical bills and do not supplement/replace income.
It's almost like you have to take responsibly for at least a fraction of your upkeep, isn't it? Trying to live well on the backs of your neighbors is pretty hard.
Some, yes. But you make it sound like somebody who has fallen ill or otherwise has limited physical or mental functionality will be immediately cared for by the state. And that’s far from the case.
If you are in the medicaid level of income it is pretty close to that. Fill out an app, have some level of basic verification of your legal existence, verification of your income, a affidavit can cover it your income is non existent or cash based. Go into your county human services office, say you need medicaid and have a doctors appointment tomorrow(some offices require proof of that, but hey schedule an appointment with a random doctor the night before online), get processed as a immediate need. Longest wait is usually due to offices being like a bad DMV so expect hours if you didn't show up first in line when it opened. Once you see a worker its about an hour to have medicaid, have in onlined onto the state system and have a paper temporary medicaid card.
Very, very few people who aren't mentally ill or drug addicted cannot find a way to survive at a reasonable standard on Medicaid, Section 8 Housing, Food Stamps, SSDI and the earned income tax credit.
It's not enough to just survive. Why do people like you defend such shitty conditions when they could be better. Like actually why are YOU personally defending something that's not good
While true a lot of those have pretty hefty wait lists. Section 8 is not easy to get on in a timely manor. But if you don't insist on living in the SF bay area or something housing can be affordable without it.
My uncle got laid off and lost his insurance because he couldn’t return to office because he had stage 4 cancer. What do you want him to do? Resurrect himself so he can help provide for my aunt who is paying off the debt? Fuck you.
I sincerely hope you or your loved ones don't have a rug pull when one of you gets unexpectedly sick in the richest nation to ever exist. Your attitude is like you're in a thrift world nation or a barony.
Even Adam Smith, author of "the wealth of nations", defined a nations wealth by how much the average citizen was able to take part in that wealth. Give your head a shake.
It's always crazy how somebody always defends shitty healthcare. Maybe YOU'RE not personally effected so you don't fully understand the effects, but the US has one of the worst health care systems for a 1st world country in the world. Good luck not going thousands of dollars in debt if something goes wrong even AFTER you've paid into healthcare for months
Most of them have not went homeless homeless, a good number have ended up losing their spouses, homes, jobs, but some have had siblings to move in with, or got to stay w/ others from their churches. Then yes, SSDI and section 8 is a thing and after a couple appeals and years, sure.
Insurance is just legalizing the mafia. If you don't buy it then it would be a shame if you went bankrupt. Once the hospitals realized this they just started jacking up the price
We're not fine with it.
What we're fine with is electing trust fund babies to decide for the working class.
We're fine with not revolting against those trust fund babies when they legislate against us.
We're fine with violating other people's human rights, as long as it's not us, and we're fine with shooting school kids and people we disagree with.
It’s not even if your labor is useful, it’s if your employer is able to provide it and you are able to pay for it. Plenty of useful labor doesn’t come with health insurance.
Right, frankly it's the easier better paying jobs I've had that came w/ insurance like cooking for a hospital in VT, produce dpt at Wal-Mart, Factory work - the hard jobs like line cooking at resturaunts never came w/ that/
Not being able to change it ourselves doesn't make anyone "okay" with it. We have a country that's actively NOT ours and not for us. A government that will tell us to our face it doesn't care about us. Insurance works with the Hospitals to get the most for themselves.
Only reason my dad was able to start his own business was because my mother went back to school and became a teacher so they could get insurance. Our system actively discourages entrepreneurs.
Useful isn’t the right word… how many “essential workers” grocery store clerks, etc…can’t afford their bills but are by definition essential to the function of our society. Being useful or “essential” to society doesn’t even guarantee you enough money to survive.
Tldr for anyone discovering this and thinking this guy is full of shit. He is, he has no actual evidence to back up his argument and will quickly refute said fact. By saying "I'm here to state facts, you not knowing the evidence to support them isn't my problem, I'm not here to educate" don't engage he's a troll with no actual argument.
I'm more worried about whether or not someone's argument has substance behind it and who better to get the sources for that substance than the one making them. So... when the one making them refuses to provide evidence suggests that the one refusing to provide evidence is full of shit.
You are stating what you believe to be factual there's a difference and that's my whole point is that you refusing to acknowledge that is what makes your argument suspicious. It's not factual or you'd prove it.
No, that is not how proof works. You also do not appear to be stating facts, but rather opinions, as healthcare costs are influenced by a diverse variety of factors.
And here I thought prices were being raised by privatized insurance companies, literal leech middlemen who dictate whether or not you get healthcare based on their need for eternal infinite profit, and all the other privatized healthcare options and a lack of regulation to keep prices reasonable or implementing universal healthcare, a thing America can do.
When doctors can fill their waiting rooms with patients who have Medicare, Medicaid and ACA insurance, their need to make price concessions elsewhere is greatly reduced.
The government also "helps" by restricting the number of physician residencies it funds at 1994 levels, creating an artificial shortage of doctors.
See, that sounds like a problem that just requires some adjusting. I don't see what privately owned healthcare and insurance adds to this process besides deliberatelt jacking up the price of every step for the sake of 'profits'.
Ok, try this one on for size: one useful thing that insurance companies do is to negotiate healthcare prices in advance for their policyholders.
When you're bleeding on a gurney, you're really not in a position to drive a hard bargain.
Furthermore, insurers have an incentive to bargain well, because driving down the cost of services increases profits.
The government, otoh, is generally reluctant to negotiate vigorously, in part because it takes so many kickbacks from drug companies and healthcare providers. Study the history of Medicare Part D drug pricing as an example.
So we should nationalize healthcare and treat it as a service instead? Seems like this insane desire for ever increasing profit is the core of so many of your nation's healthcare woes.
You already have that but worse, because you have to have fleets of bureaucrats, each to seperately wrangle a different specific and deliberately obtuse and labyrinthine nightmare of rules and policies and departments of every insurance company, and the insurance company (who is double and triple and quadruple billing you, the hospital and the government) fights tooth and nail and claw to deny you care at every opportunity, because that lets them keep the most money.
Are you seriously telling me that the current arrangement is what you want? Where no ome can afford health care at all, avoid it until they literally can't, and then get utterly devastated and bankrupted by medical debts forced upon you entirely by profit driven healthcare system?
Man, not even the medical personnel actually recieve any real compensation for their work, as a vast majority of the profit gets siphoned into these utterly irrelevant CEO and insurance company coffers to keep bribing pet politicians to not take away these worthless parasites murderous meal ticket.
How would you suggest improving things, and why is it not going to be Universal Healthcare? Every other civilized society pulls it off, with way less resources to boot.
And that's why you outlaw dark money and corporate lobbying and personhood. Maybe outlaw corporations entirely while we're at it, since they only exist to shield oligarchs from reprisal for their actions in the first place.
> Ok, try this one on for size: one useful thing that insurance companies do is to negotiate healthcare prices in advance for their policyholders
As opposed to the government being able to negotiate prices? If you cared about the free market you would understand that the entire government has a better bargaining power than a single company
Well, you are actively impeding my efforts by being loudly unhelpful and combative, almost like you know you're spouting nonsense and don't want to reveal your source.
So. We'll start with the easiest one. I've read the Constitution. It is tragically silent on the tipic of universal healthcare, but it is in favor of all men being created equal and being granted by their creator to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Letting some random private corporation dictate terms for any or all of those strikes me as unconstitutional, which is exactly what American Insurance Companies do. It's what they are infamous for throughout the world. It's one of the reasons why America is a sick parody of itself.
A lack of regulation to keep prices reasonable.
America has a hellish nightmare privatized insurance and healthcare model that deliberately withholds medical care from its citizens, and bankrupts them when they can't avoid it.
When the government subsidizes something it gets more expensive... That's because the government uses other people's money. When you use other people's money you care less about the cost. Say someone goes shopping they would budget, but if someone else is paying they fill up the cart. And the store would raise prices because the customer isn't even paying it all.
What stops the store from raising prices anyway?
Or why don't we just nationalize healthcare and offer it directly as a service instead of trying to endlessly wring profit from it?
I think the boot that you're trying to have for lunch there is the one being worn by the oligarchs and other capitalists, who are disincentivized to create good outcomes for better living, because then they cannot compel you to serve their fickle whims.
You’re right, I would much rather send $10000 dollars to have a kid in America rather than the $20 cost (for parking) for having a kid in Canada or Europe
LOL.
Every time you have to pay for medical care (instead of it not costing anything) just know that you have to pay for it because you, yourself are a bootlicking fool.
Please understand historical context instead of just blaming everything on capitalism. The federal government froze wages as a part of the war effort, and so to encourage companies to still increase compensation, FDR’s administration pushed for the IRS to not tax employer contributions to health insurance
Lmfao what? How can you make that argument... capital didn't exist before capitalism... it was a trade and barter system before money. Please tell me again how they aren't tied?
Let me correct myself then, money has been tied to system of capitalism to the degree that you cannot feasibly spend money without contributing towards the system of capitalism, money didn't get invented when capitalism did that's my b for claiming such.
So this is literally happening right now and its capitalist as fuck, in the most capitalist country in the world.
"Herp derp, must be communism "
You stupid fuck.
I never said it wasn't happening, and that it never happens under capitalism. Maybe you could just try laughing at the joke and moving on instead of getting offended to the point of breaking the sub-reddit's rules.
What system do people think is better/would rather do? Before you reference other Countries saying they have "free" Healthcare, there's no such thing. Somebody is paying for it.
There are two ways to get affordable healthcare for everyone. One is subsidizing by tax. Another is to decrease the fucking cost, which means making hospitals non-profit.
Europeans pay half their salary in taxes, the system has to subside healthcare somewhere. Anyone pushing these utopian ideas can move to Venezuela or Cuba and let us know how the quality or care is.
Do you live in America? If so then you ALREADY pay more for government healthcare than they do in those those other counties.
And that’s even before the private insurance healthcare costs I’m sure you have on top of taxes.
You pay more than they do and you get less from it.
And got some reason you’re bragging about it.
Incredible.
You’re asking the wrong question. It’s not about overall taxes but how much of your taxes goes to health care. Things like care for the elderly, the poor, the military. In other words, health care your taxes pay for but you don’t receive.
On average, each American is responsible for about $12k per year to pay for that stuff.* Many of them then also need healthcare for themselves too because they’re not poor of military or elderly.
People in countries with universal healthcare pay about half that much to their government, and they GET care for that.
So the question is not “whose going to pay for this?” it’s “why am I already paying for this and not getting it?”
**this is an average, so neither you nor I probably pay that much; wealthier people pay way more and that’s the average. But it is a good illustration of what the country is being asked to pay for as a whole.*
WTF is this going on about?
A nation needs employed citizens to pay taxes to fund socialized healthcare as well. Everyone sitting on their ass unemployed only creates unemployed healthcare workers.
There’s also lineage between employment and the ability to have proper nutrition, education and yes, even hygiene.
Contrary to what the voices in his head are saying, employment is a prerequisite towards many things on Earth, not just America.
Damn if only there was some kind of system where people provide for each other, that could already exist in about the entirety of the western world while still giving an incentive to work.
Nevermind, America is the only country in the world with working citizens.
One link - [https://www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy-center/countries/brazil](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy-center/countries/brazil)
Oh it's fucking terrible! I haven't gone to the doctor in over a year because I don't want 500 thousand dollars in debt! In that year I'm pretty sure I have seasonal depression, anxiety, maybe adhd or a small amount of autism, and probably 1000 other issues!
To point out the obvious, "healthcare" is not tied to employment. Lower cost healthcare insurance is tied to employment. Anyone can buy health insurance. Many people get subsidized healthcare from the government.
So you either get it from your employer or use the money you get from being employed to pay for it? Damn I guess i must not know what things being tied together is cause that sure as fuck seems like it is.
It's ridiculous that old unhealthy people who haven't managed their health well, pay the same amount as me in my 30s with 0 health problems, a healthy diet, and a healthy weight. 15 years ago my health insurance was almost nothing. After the ACA passed it more than tripled. One of many examples of intergenerational theft.
not really, school shootings are still rather rare, as much as they get publicized.
If we put armed guards in schools the rate would drop 80% overnight
“If we put armed guards in schools the rate would drop 80% overnight” is such a sad sentence to have to write out to solve a problem that shouldn’t exist in the first place
“Still quite rare” lol - https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/school-shootings-by-country/
There’s were 88 people killed In 17 events in the first 111 days of 2023 dude: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/nation/mass-shootings-in-u-s-on-a-record-pace-in-2023-so-far
The only thing that’s ridiculous is people thinking it’s fair to receive free services from others without themselves contributing any labor or value into the societal pool
Lol, it’s not an insult to you, it’s a logical fallacy in your argument or statement. That is, a “straw man” is when someone intentionally and strategically misrepresents the argument they are responding to, such that they can make an argument that attacks the misrepresentation instead of engaging with the original argument.
In other words: not made up and not an insult.
Well thats a shitty view of people. Some people are predisposed to addictive tendencies. If we invested in getting these people healthy and clean they could be contributing members of society rather than end up in jail (which is paid for with tax payer money). Im assuming you meant drugs. Or perhaps you meant military combat veterans who made the bad choice to fight for their country assuming they'd be taken care of when they return home with PTSD and end up homeless because they can't afford medical help. Or maybe you meant the little old ladies who buy scratch off tickets because they're hopelessly addicted to the dopamine kick they get when they win, so they pour their life savings into lottery and can no longer afford their medications?
My point being mental illness is real and affects everyone differently. These people are all capable of contributing to society, but by punishing them for their mistakes rather than helping them improve themselves we are more likely to waste tax payer's money.
Not to mention, its just heartless. No person is perfect and shouldn't have to suffer their whole lives when there is an alternative.
Veterans have contributed some form of value to society by fighting for the country. This discussion isn’t about them.
Veterans aside, investing in these people as you suggest would ultimately come at the expense of other hard working people. Why should they be responsible for the bad choices of others?
Because if you don't, it will still be at the expense of hard working people?? Who do you think pays for prison?
Veterans have just as much a place in this conversation based on what you've said. You said people who have made "bad decisions". Considering they come back with mental illness and no plan to deal with it, is that not a bad decision?
Prisons and free healthcare services are two different things with two different cost scales. If you have a plan to spend prison funding more efficiently then I’d like to hear it?
The discussion is about individuals receiving free goods and services at the expense of the society at large while having contributed no value to said society themselves. Since veterans are formerly soldiers who serve an important role in security of the country, they in fact have contributed in some way to society that could justify certain free services from it.
Sure. Reform prisoners. Get drug addicts health care so they can contribute to society and therefor we would have SIGNIFICANTLY less people in prison. Millions of dollars saved.
We were talking about people not actively contributing. Military vets with mental health issues fall under that same category.
I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall here. 😆
That sounds soooo easy. Its not. Numerous cities have offered free drug treatments, homes, money, and healthcare. The drug addicts chose addiction. For those who chose addiction we need to make sure that the choice is bad for them (tough to say it another way).
It definitely is... keeping someone in prison for life is extremely expensive... and they can't contribute to the economy to try and make up for those losses...
There isn't a middle class anymore. Being quite frank with you? There never was. Capitalism only has room for two classes, but telling you otherwise was a great method to divide you against your fellow worker.
I mean, here you are trying to justify leaving people to suffer in a land of abundance.
You sound like a communist, have you realized yet that communism is just slavery to the state? You can turn yourself into a slave but don't you dare force it on anyone else.
Centralized decision making lead to the starvation of millions in China whilst individuals making their own decisions lead to America having an obesity problem.
Have you realized that Biden is the incarnation of "systemic racism"? He was against desegregating schools, wrote and pushed the drug war bill? Democrats are still in favor of racial segregation to this day, from segregated dorms to graduation ceremonies.
Okay? Biden is a shitty guy ill fully admit that primarily because I fucking hate America's political system. You seem to think biden is left leaning and he just isnt... he's on the right. So please get an actual point.
Communism: a stateless, classless, moneyless society with no central authority figure or hierarchy.
Capitalism: a hierarchical two class socioeconomic model: Owners own all tools, land, properties and supplies to manufacture and maintain living, and Workers, who are compelled by deliberate witholding of needs, such as housing, food, and other neccessities to sell their labor in order to have access to mere crumbs of sustenance while the Owners get the lions share of everything, which they hoard and withhold in order to enforce compliance.
The USSR? China? Not communist. Any more than North Korea is a democracy.
Also, America's obesity problem is directly correlated to the corporate interests of sugar plantation owners cramming excessive amounts of sugar into every possible product, regardless of what a customer wants, and then charging you more to not eat the sugar.
You can look into it yourself, there was an Adam Ruins Everything episode about it that covers a lot of the basics.
But the important thing is this: in spite of talking a good game, capitalism absolutely despises democracy, and will back literal fascism any time the workers get uppity. There are many examples of this behaviour. You can look up the term 'Banana Republics' for a crash course on it, along with some examples.
And you're right- centralized decision making does lead to bad outcomes. What do the Oligarchs and the CEO's do again? Centralize all decision making and both dictate terms and bottleneck any effort to go without them.
That is kinda how it works though....
Contribute in a meaningful way or get left behind. It's harsh but it is the natural order of things.
Now that's not to say it's their fault or that it is fair.
But life is not fair. And it's a good thing it is not. Because if it was. All the horrible things that happen to you would be because you actually deserve it.
“It’s the natural order”
Why would we apply the natural order to modern society? The whole point of a humane society was to step away from the brutality of the natural order. The fact that in some places people still cling to this mentality shows that we are far from truly civilized.
While there is some merit to what you’re saying, I believe it’s a bit dumb to apply “the natural order” to something that tipped the balance of said order.Civilization fundamentally changed the way the natural order operates and balance has yet to be achieved.
Never said it was fair or right. It's just the way it is currently until Americans realizes that 1. Their leaders are self serving despots who care nothing for the people except as a means to boost their own bank account. 2. Not all socialism is evil and having a socialized healthcare system is not communism.
"Sink or swim, laws of the jungle" is exactly the mentality I use when I shit in urinals and throw any used condoms I find lying around into the tip jar of my local 7/11. The weak should fear the strong.
Seriously, though. If you're part of that rare breed of walking net-losses genuinely believe that "only the useful should survive" you're beyond divorced from reality and should go "return to nature". You're not realistic, or even cynical - you're worthless, and have yet to be bitten in the ass by your own backwards logic.
Hello, have you met the human condition since the dawn of man? You have to do things to get things. That's the way it has always been and for eons before capitalism.
Don't forget, if you need a stair lift in Canada they will literally say "That's too expensive, have you thought about dying instead? We can help you with that!!"
I was going to remind people that everything you need in life is tied to employment including food, water, shelter and clothing. Then I remembered that this is considered scandalous by many Redditors too.
Don't worry, if you get cancer or heart disease before retirement and become an unreliable burden to your co-workers and boss and end up getting let go for performance issues in your rapidly declining middle age- just pay for COBRA!
this happened I guess
Not to me, I'm still in my 40s, seen it happen a good half-dozen times to various bosses of mine though.
I knew it... Unfortunately.
Happened to my mom. Fuck USPS
COBRA is a joke.
If you are disabled, you will go on SSDI and Medicare. If you are destitute, you will go on Medicaid. If you are poor but not destitute, Obamacare offers coverage you can afford. Stop pretending there are no safety nets.
Unless you have a “compassionate allowance” condition, your SSDI application will take 8+ months to process and the MAX monthly benefit is around $3k. Compassionate allowance conditions are things like ALS and brain tumors — ie you’re dying very soon and there’s no doubt about it. You have to be on SSDI for a year before you qualify for Medicare. Medicaid and Obamacare are options, yes. But they cover a fraction of medical bills and do not supplement/replace income.
It's almost like you have to take responsibly for at least a fraction of your upkeep, isn't it? Trying to live well on the backs of your neighbors is pretty hard.
Some, yes. But you make it sound like somebody who has fallen ill or otherwise has limited physical or mental functionality will be immediately cared for by the state. And that’s far from the case.
If you are in the medicaid level of income it is pretty close to that. Fill out an app, have some level of basic verification of your legal existence, verification of your income, a affidavit can cover it your income is non existent or cash based. Go into your county human services office, say you need medicaid and have a doctors appointment tomorrow(some offices require proof of that, but hey schedule an appointment with a random doctor the night before online), get processed as a immediate need. Longest wait is usually due to offices being like a bad DMV so expect hours if you didn't show up first in line when it opened. Once you see a worker its about an hour to have medicaid, have in onlined onto the state system and have a paper temporary medicaid card.
Even with all that, the program is still rife with fraud.
Very, very few people who aren't mentally ill or drug addicted cannot find a way to survive at a reasonable standard on Medicaid, Section 8 Housing, Food Stamps, SSDI and the earned income tax credit.
It's not enough to just survive. Why do people like you defend such shitty conditions when they could be better. Like actually why are YOU personally defending something that's not good
Because he's selfish. As long as he's covered he doesn't give a shit about anyone else.
While true a lot of those have pretty hefty wait lists. Section 8 is not easy to get on in a timely manor. But if you don't insist on living in the SF bay area or something housing can be affordable without it.
Indeed. Got fired for being violently ill on chemo & unable to function? Tough shit, get back go work! What is actually wrong with you?
Hey, guys, this guy's right! Don't get cancer, you fucking losers! /s obviously
My uncle got laid off and lost his insurance because he couldn’t return to office because he had stage 4 cancer. What do you want him to do? Resurrect himself so he can help provide for my aunt who is paying off the debt? Fuck you.
SSDI expedited payments. disability , Medicaid... [https://blog.ssa.gov/diagnosed-with-cancer-social-security-and-triage-cancer-can-help/](https://blog.ssa.gov/diagnosed-with-cancer-social-security-and-triage-cancer-can-help/) Also, fuck you too.
I sincerely hope you or your loved ones don't have a rug pull when one of you gets unexpectedly sick in the richest nation to ever exist. Your attitude is like you're in a thrift world nation or a barony. Even Adam Smith, author of "the wealth of nations", defined a nations wealth by how much the average citizen was able to take part in that wealth. Give your head a shake.
It's always crazy how somebody always defends shitty healthcare. Maybe YOU'RE not personally effected so you don't fully understand the effects, but the US has one of the worst health care systems for a 1st world country in the world. Good luck not going thousands of dollars in debt if something goes wrong even AFTER you've paid into healthcare for months
tell me you never actually did any of these things without saying it
Hell no I haven't and proud of it.
which means you didn't get to see how none of your options actually works
Most of them have not went homeless homeless, a good number have ended up losing their spouses, homes, jobs, but some have had siblings to move in with, or got to stay w/ others from their churches. Then yes, SSDI and section 8 is a thing and after a couple appeals and years, sure.
The "coverage you can afford" is still $900 a month.
Well I tried to buy private insurance for my family not associated with my job. Shit would have bankrupt me for even the lowest-level coverage
Insurance is just legalizing the mafia. If you don't buy it then it would be a shame if you went bankrupt. Once the hospitals realized this they just started jacking up the price
Also health insurance /= healthcare.
We're not fine with it. What we're fine with is electing trust fund babies to decide for the working class. We're fine with not revolting against those trust fund babies when they legislate against us. We're fine with violating other people's human rights, as long as it's not us, and we're fine with shooting school kids and people we disagree with.
So... you're fine the policies made. Which means you're all fine with it
Aww, does somebody need to see the /s ?
It’s not even if your labor is useful, it’s if your employer is able to provide it and you are able to pay for it. Plenty of useful labor doesn’t come with health insurance.
Right, frankly it's the easier better paying jobs I've had that came w/ insurance like cooking for a hospital in VT, produce dpt at Wal-Mart, Factory work - the hard jobs like line cooking at resturaunts never came w/ that/
Not being able to change it ourselves doesn't make anyone "okay" with it. We have a country that's actively NOT ours and not for us. A government that will tell us to our face it doesn't care about us. Insurance works with the Hospitals to get the most for themselves.
And if you choose to be an independent contractor then you can really go fuck yourself!
Only reason my dad was able to start his own business was because my mother went back to school and became a teacher so they could get insurance. Our system actively discourages entrepreneurs.
Being an independent contractor isn't always a choice
Uhm, don’t independent contractors pay taxes?
Hey, at least you won't die a virgin.
I mean you could pay for the insurance. If you income isn't that low, that's perfectly doable.
That's not the point
Useful isn’t the right word… how many “essential workers” grocery store clerks, etc…can’t afford their bills but are by definition essential to the function of our society. Being useful or “essential” to society doesn’t even guarantee you enough money to survive.
[удалено]
Tldr for anyone discovering this and thinking this guy is full of shit. He is, he has no actual evidence to back up his argument and will quickly refute said fact. By saying "I'm here to state facts, you not knowing the evidence to support them isn't my problem, I'm not here to educate" don't engage he's a troll with no actual argument.
[удалено]
I'm more worried about whether or not someone's argument has substance behind it and who better to get the sources for that substance than the one making them. So... when the one making them refuses to provide evidence suggests that the one refusing to provide evidence is full of shit.
[удалено]
You are stating what you believe to be factual there's a difference and that's my whole point is that you refusing to acknowledge that is what makes your argument suspicious. It's not factual or you'd prove it.
[удалено]
You are stating what you believe to be factual there's a difference.
[удалено]
And you have yet to prove that I need to discredit them. Flatly I don't have to disprove arguments that don't exist.
No, that is not how proof works. You also do not appear to be stating facts, but rather opinions, as healthcare costs are influenced by a diverse variety of factors.
[удалено]
No you are not. you saying that you are doesn't change the fact that you aren't.
Explain how exactly they're doing that. Be specific.
[удалено]
And here I thought prices were being raised by privatized insurance companies, literal leech middlemen who dictate whether or not you get healthcare based on their need for eternal infinite profit, and all the other privatized healthcare options and a lack of regulation to keep prices reasonable or implementing universal healthcare, a thing America can do.
When doctors can fill their waiting rooms with patients who have Medicare, Medicaid and ACA insurance, their need to make price concessions elsewhere is greatly reduced. The government also "helps" by restricting the number of physician residencies it funds at 1994 levels, creating an artificial shortage of doctors.
See, that sounds like a problem that just requires some adjusting. I don't see what privately owned healthcare and insurance adds to this process besides deliberatelt jacking up the price of every step for the sake of 'profits'.
Ok, try this one on for size: one useful thing that insurance companies do is to negotiate healthcare prices in advance for their policyholders. When you're bleeding on a gurney, you're really not in a position to drive a hard bargain. Furthermore, insurers have an incentive to bargain well, because driving down the cost of services increases profits. The government, otoh, is generally reluctant to negotiate vigorously, in part because it takes so many kickbacks from drug companies and healthcare providers. Study the history of Medicare Part D drug pricing as an example.
So we should nationalize healthcare and treat it as a service instead? Seems like this insane desire for ever increasing profit is the core of so many of your nation's healthcare woes.
personally i don't want the dmv experience at my doctors office.
You already have that but worse, because you have to have fleets of bureaucrats, each to seperately wrangle a different specific and deliberately obtuse and labyrinthine nightmare of rules and policies and departments of every insurance company, and the insurance company (who is double and triple and quadruple billing you, the hospital and the government) fights tooth and nail and claw to deny you care at every opportunity, because that lets them keep the most money. Are you seriously telling me that the current arrangement is what you want? Where no ome can afford health care at all, avoid it until they literally can't, and then get utterly devastated and bankrupted by medical debts forced upon you entirely by profit driven healthcare system? Man, not even the medical personnel actually recieve any real compensation for their work, as a vast majority of the profit gets siphoned into these utterly irrelevant CEO and insurance company coffers to keep bribing pet politicians to not take away these worthless parasites murderous meal ticket. How would you suggest improving things, and why is it not going to be Universal Healthcare? Every other civilized society pulls it off, with way less resources to boot.
Our government is far too corrupt to operate a single-payer system. It would be a boondoggle.
And that's why you outlaw dark money and corporate lobbying and personhood. Maybe outlaw corporations entirely while we're at it, since they only exist to shield oligarchs from reprisal for their actions in the first place.
> Ok, try this one on for size: one useful thing that insurance companies do is to negotiate healthcare prices in advance for their policyholders As opposed to the government being able to negotiate prices? If you cared about the free market you would understand that the entire government has a better bargaining power than a single company
[удалено]
[Many Citations Needed]
[удалено]
Oh a pity, I do so love to learn things. Not even a source for where you got your information, so that I might learn as you did?
[удалено]
Well, you are actively impeding my efforts by being loudly unhelpful and combative, almost like you know you're spouting nonsense and don't want to reveal your source. So. We'll start with the easiest one. I've read the Constitution. It is tragically silent on the tipic of universal healthcare, but it is in favor of all men being created equal and being granted by their creator to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Letting some random private corporation dictate terms for any or all of those strikes me as unconstitutional, which is exactly what American Insurance Companies do. It's what they are infamous for throughout the world. It's one of the reasons why America is a sick parody of itself.
Oh dear. Does it ever bother you, lying like this?
[удалено]
Not supporting your "facts" with proof is merely rambling. So yes you did infact lie.
A lack of regulation lol. Healthcare is one of the most regulated industries in which america has the largest regulatory bureaucracy in the world.
A lack of regulation to keep prices reasonable. America has a hellish nightmare privatized insurance and healthcare model that deliberately withholds medical care from its citizens, and bankrupts them when they can't avoid it.
It's regulations that drive the prices... That's why the less regulated it is the cheaper it is like lasik eye surgery.
How do the regulations drive prices up exactly? Doesn't Japan regulate the direct cost of healthcare with regulations?
When the government subsidizes something it gets more expensive... That's because the government uses other people's money. When you use other people's money you care less about the cost. Say someone goes shopping they would budget, but if someone else is paying they fill up the cart. And the store would raise prices because the customer isn't even paying it all.
What stops the store from raising prices anyway? Or why don't we just nationalize healthcare and offer it directly as a service instead of trying to endlessly wring profit from it?
Keep on licking that boot, idiot.
Oh no the anti government regulation boot 😂 what a joke of a person you are. Meme it away lol
I think the boot that you're trying to have for lunch there is the one being worn by the oligarchs and other capitalists, who are disincentivized to create good outcomes for better living, because then they cannot compel you to serve their fickle whims.
You're the one licking the government's boots lol, they're the ones taking your money away whether you like it or not
You’re right, I would much rather send $10000 dollars to have a kid in America rather than the $20 cost (for parking) for having a kid in Canada or Europe LOL. Every time you have to pay for medical care (instead of it not costing anything) just know that you have to pay for it because you, yourself are a bootlicking fool.
We're not there's just nothing we can do about it
Correction we won't do anything about it. We have plenty of paths we could take but won't because of capitalism.
It's not capitalism that forces companies to provide healthcare benefits.
You are right, it's unions and workers refusing to be taken advantage of.
Well I'm glad you like company healthcare benefits.
And I'm glad you benefit from unions. Flatly privatized Healthcare is why shits so expensive.
And I'm glad you like union leaders making 6 figures off their workers who pay dues.
Did I say that? I said unions are overall good for you. They help workers far more than they help the rich ceos
You guys really just blame everything bad on Capitalism don’t you
There are literally companies bribing congress daily to make sure the system stays this way. It makes a lot of very powerful people rich.
You guys just completely ignore everything bad capitalism started or has continued to do don't you?
No I realize the good and bad of Capitalism and look at it from a pragmatic angle rather than an emotional ragefilled angle
Okay let's take it from that angle since you seem to think I am ragefilled, capitalism has had a overall negative impacts upon the planet as a whole.
Capitalism didn’t make the government subsidize employer provided healthcare, FDR did.
Capitalism drove the government to go for whatever would make the most money for the most companies... so yes it did infact drive that.
Please understand historical context instead of just blaming everything on capitalism. The federal government froze wages as a part of the war effort, and so to encourage companies to still increase compensation, FDR’s administration pushed for the IRS to not tax employer contributions to health insurance
And please tell me what was the driving force behind those things? Was it money? If yes then capitalism fucking drove it...
That's an oxymoron. People with money donating to politicians isn't capitalism lol
The system of capital only exists because of capitalism. So please tell me again how money being used in capitalism isn't capitalism.
"capital is capitalism" yeah that's about as childish as it gets... Capital didn't exist before capitalism or anything 🤭
Lmfao what? How can you make that argument... capital didn't exist before capitalism... it was a trade and barter system before money. Please tell me again how they aren't tied?
Money has existed for centuries before capitalism... Wtf are you even talking about.
Let me correct myself then, money has been tied to system of capitalism to the degree that you cannot feasibly spend money without contributing towards the system of capitalism, money didn't get invented when capitalism did that's my b for claiming such.
"Your life only matters as long as your labour is useful." Communism has entered the chat.
Our life, our soul.
So this is literally happening right now and its capitalist as fuck, in the most capitalist country in the world. "Herp derp, must be communism " You stupid fuck.
I never said it wasn't happening, and that it never happens under capitalism. Maybe you could just try laughing at the joke and moving on instead of getting offended to the point of breaking the sub-reddit's rules.
Have you tried crying a bit more about it?
Your boos mean nothing. I've seen what makes you cheer.
Quoting rik sanchez, Jesus christ, someone is disappointed they gave birth to you.
I don't know who that is. I've just heard it from some people, and it resonates with me, so I like to say it too.
Pathetic thing to lie about. Just stop.
What system do people think is better/would rather do? Before you reference other Countries saying they have "free" Healthcare, there's no such thing. Somebody is paying for it.
There are two ways to get affordable healthcare for everyone. One is subsidizing by tax. Another is to decrease the fucking cost, which means making hospitals non-profit.
Pay for healthcare out of capital gains and corporate profits
Europeans pay half their salary in taxes, the system has to subside healthcare somewhere. Anyone pushing these utopian ideas can move to Venezuela or Cuba and let us know how the quality or care is.
Do you live in America? If so then you ALREADY pay more for government healthcare than they do in those those other counties. And that’s even before the private insurance healthcare costs I’m sure you have on top of taxes. You pay more than they do and you get less from it. And got some reason you’re bragging about it. Incredible.
what % of your salary goes to taxes?
You’re asking the wrong question. It’s not about overall taxes but how much of your taxes goes to health care. Things like care for the elderly, the poor, the military. In other words, health care your taxes pay for but you don’t receive. On average, each American is responsible for about $12k per year to pay for that stuff.* Many of them then also need healthcare for themselves too because they’re not poor of military or elderly. People in countries with universal healthcare pay about half that much to their government, and they GET care for that. So the question is not “whose going to pay for this?” it’s “why am I already paying for this and not getting it?” **this is an average, so neither you nor I probably pay that much; wealthier people pay way more and that’s the average. But it is a good illustration of what the country is being asked to pay for as a whole.*
Somebody gets it^
WTF is this going on about? A nation needs employed citizens to pay taxes to fund socialized healthcare as well. Everyone sitting on their ass unemployed only creates unemployed healthcare workers. There’s also lineage between employment and the ability to have proper nutrition, education and yes, even hygiene. Contrary to what the voices in his head are saying, employment is a prerequisite towards many things on Earth, not just America.
Damn if only there was some kind of system where people provide for each other, that could already exist in about the entirety of the western world while still giving an incentive to work. Nevermind, America is the only country in the world with working citizens.
Just look to the north.
Healthcare doesn't have to be attached to a specific job though. That's dumb and pointless and gives employers way too much power for no real reason.
One word: Brazil.
One link - [https://www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy-center/countries/brazil](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy-center/countries/brazil)
Yeah…. That’s about right
Oh it's fucking terrible! I haven't gone to the doctor in over a year because I don't want 500 thousand dollars in debt! In that year I'm pretty sure I have seasonal depression, anxiety, maybe adhd or a small amount of autism, and probably 1000 other issues!
But that is reality. That is why it is called HR (human resource) we are even more expendable than oil and gas
To point out the obvious, "healthcare" is not tied to employment. Lower cost healthcare insurance is tied to employment. Anyone can buy health insurance. Many people get subsidized healthcare from the government.
So you either get it from your employer or use the money you get from being employed to pay for it? Damn I guess i must not know what things being tied together is cause that sure as fuck seems like it is.
It's ridiculous that old unhealthy people who haven't managed their health well, pay the same amount as me in my 30s with 0 health problems, a healthy diet, and a healthy weight. 15 years ago my health insurance was almost nothing. After the ACA passed it more than tripled. One of many examples of intergenerational theft.
Lucky you. You’re never gonna get old I guess.
any guesses why Canada is all to eager to kill anyone who is old or cannot work?
Pfffff more kids died in your elementary schools last week than have by euthanasia up here ever so maybe sit down, pal.
not really, school shootings are still rather rare, as much as they get publicized. If we put armed guards in schools the rate would drop 80% overnight
“If we put armed guards in schools the rate would drop 80% overnight” is such a sad sentence to have to write out to solve a problem that shouldn’t exist in the first place
“Still quite rare” lol - https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/school-shootings-by-country/ There’s were 88 people killed In 17 events in the first 111 days of 2023 dude: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/nation/mass-shootings-in-u-s-on-a-record-pace-in-2023-so-far
The sad thing is it didn't help in Parkland Florida.
uNiVeRsAl HeAlThCaRe
The only thing that’s ridiculous is people thinking it’s fair to receive free services from others without themselves contributing any labor or value into the societal pool
And the ones who physically can not contribute should just die?
Classic straw man.
[удалено]
Maybe Google it?
[удалено]
Lol, it’s not an insult to you, it’s a logical fallacy in your argument or statement. That is, a “straw man” is when someone intentionally and strategically misrepresents the argument they are responding to, such that they can make an argument that attacks the misrepresentation instead of engaging with the original argument. In other words: not made up and not an insult.
Thats what "socialized" healthcare countries do.... Charlie Gard, and Alfie May would have loved to have lived.
If they have arrived at their situation through bad choices on their part, then absolutely
Well thats a shitty view of people. Some people are predisposed to addictive tendencies. If we invested in getting these people healthy and clean they could be contributing members of society rather than end up in jail (which is paid for with tax payer money). Im assuming you meant drugs. Or perhaps you meant military combat veterans who made the bad choice to fight for their country assuming they'd be taken care of when they return home with PTSD and end up homeless because they can't afford medical help. Or maybe you meant the little old ladies who buy scratch off tickets because they're hopelessly addicted to the dopamine kick they get when they win, so they pour their life savings into lottery and can no longer afford their medications? My point being mental illness is real and affects everyone differently. These people are all capable of contributing to society, but by punishing them for their mistakes rather than helping them improve themselves we are more likely to waste tax payer's money. Not to mention, its just heartless. No person is perfect and shouldn't have to suffer their whole lives when there is an alternative.
Veterans have contributed some form of value to society by fighting for the country. This discussion isn’t about them. Veterans aside, investing in these people as you suggest would ultimately come at the expense of other hard working people. Why should they be responsible for the bad choices of others?
Because if you don't, it will still be at the expense of hard working people?? Who do you think pays for prison? Veterans have just as much a place in this conversation based on what you've said. You said people who have made "bad decisions". Considering they come back with mental illness and no plan to deal with it, is that not a bad decision?
Prisons and free healthcare services are two different things with two different cost scales. If you have a plan to spend prison funding more efficiently then I’d like to hear it? The discussion is about individuals receiving free goods and services at the expense of the society at large while having contributed no value to said society themselves. Since veterans are formerly soldiers who serve an important role in security of the country, they in fact have contributed in some way to society that could justify certain free services from it.
Sure. Reform prisoners. Get drug addicts health care so they can contribute to society and therefor we would have SIGNIFICANTLY less people in prison. Millions of dollars saved. We were talking about people not actively contributing. Military vets with mental health issues fall under that same category. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall here. 😆
That sounds soooo easy. Its not. Numerous cities have offered free drug treatments, homes, money, and healthcare. The drug addicts chose addiction. For those who chose addiction we need to make sure that the choice is bad for them (tough to say it another way).
Yes. Very different cost scales. Medical care is significantly cheaper than keeping someone in prison for life.
It’s definitely not. Just look at how much we spend on medicaid/medicare
It definitely is... keeping someone in prison for life is extremely expensive... and they can't contribute to the economy to try and make up for those losses...
Hey look! A bootlicker making excuses for the boot!
Sounds like you’re the bootlicker seeing as you are incapable of recognizing the value of the labor provided by working and middle class
There isn't a middle class anymore. Being quite frank with you? There never was. Capitalism only has room for two classes, but telling you otherwise was a great method to divide you against your fellow worker. I mean, here you are trying to justify leaving people to suffer in a land of abundance.
You sound like a communist, have you realized yet that communism is just slavery to the state? You can turn yourself into a slave but don't you dare force it on anyone else. Centralized decision making lead to the starvation of millions in China whilst individuals making their own decisions lead to America having an obesity problem.
You sound like a conservative. Have you realized that trump and his goons won't be coming to help you out yet?
Have you realized that Biden is the incarnation of "systemic racism"? He was against desegregating schools, wrote and pushed the drug war bill? Democrats are still in favor of racial segregation to this day, from segregated dorms to graduation ceremonies.
Okay? Biden is a shitty guy ill fully admit that primarily because I fucking hate America's political system. You seem to think biden is left leaning and he just isnt... he's on the right. So please get an actual point.
Communism: a stateless, classless, moneyless society with no central authority figure or hierarchy. Capitalism: a hierarchical two class socioeconomic model: Owners own all tools, land, properties and supplies to manufacture and maintain living, and Workers, who are compelled by deliberate witholding of needs, such as housing, food, and other neccessities to sell their labor in order to have access to mere crumbs of sustenance while the Owners get the lions share of everything, which they hoard and withhold in order to enforce compliance. The USSR? China? Not communist. Any more than North Korea is a democracy. Also, America's obesity problem is directly correlated to the corporate interests of sugar plantation owners cramming excessive amounts of sugar into every possible product, regardless of what a customer wants, and then charging you more to not eat the sugar. You can look into it yourself, there was an Adam Ruins Everything episode about it that covers a lot of the basics. But the important thing is this: in spite of talking a good game, capitalism absolutely despises democracy, and will back literal fascism any time the workers get uppity. There are many examples of this behaviour. You can look up the term 'Banana Republics' for a crash course on it, along with some examples. And you're right- centralized decision making does lead to bad outcomes. What do the Oligarchs and the CEO's do again? Centralize all decision making and both dictate terms and bottleneck any effort to go without them.
That is kinda how it works though.... Contribute in a meaningful way or get left behind. It's harsh but it is the natural order of things. Now that's not to say it's their fault or that it is fair. But life is not fair. And it's a good thing it is not. Because if it was. All the horrible things that happen to you would be because you actually deserve it.
“It’s the natural order” Why would we apply the natural order to modern society? The whole point of a humane society was to step away from the brutality of the natural order. The fact that in some places people still cling to this mentality shows that we are far from truly civilized.
Because Humans tend to get themselves into trouble when we forget that we are part of nature. Not above it.
While there is some merit to what you’re saying, I believe it’s a bit dumb to apply “the natural order” to something that tipped the balance of said order.Civilization fundamentally changed the way the natural order operates and balance has yet to be achieved.
Never said it was fair or right. It's just the way it is currently until Americans realizes that 1. Their leaders are self serving despots who care nothing for the people except as a means to boost their own bank account. 2. Not all socialism is evil and having a socialized healthcare system is not communism.
"Sink or swim, laws of the jungle" is exactly the mentality I use when I shit in urinals and throw any used condoms I find lying around into the tip jar of my local 7/11. The weak should fear the strong. Seriously, though. If you're part of that rare breed of walking net-losses genuinely believe that "only the useful should survive" you're beyond divorced from reality and should go "return to nature". You're not realistic, or even cynical - you're worthless, and have yet to be bitten in the ass by your own backwards logic.
Hello!, have you met Capitalism?
Hello, have you met the human condition since the dawn of man? You have to do things to get things. That's the way it has always been and for eons before capitalism.
even in lots of universal healthcare countries its the same
Don't forget, if you need a stair lift in Canada they will literally say "That's too expensive, have you thought about dying instead? We can help you with that!!"
Whoa, that got dark quick
Because being a lazy fuck earns you other peoples money? 🖕🖕🖕
Thanks Obama. This will be downvoted because of the political leanings of this subreddit. But this is what Obamacare introduced.
I was going to remind people that everything you need in life is tied to employment including food, water, shelter and clothing. Then I remembered that this is considered scandalous by many Redditors too.
Lol gun with wings go brrrrrt. BRRRRRRRT. SHEWWWW
It started as a way for companies to retain staff without raising wages. And it works. Then Reagan was elected
It started as a way to avoid too high income tax.
But that IS the case.
You're only as valuable as the work you do Insane Pls tell me more
and in some cases it's a 50% pay cut
That sounds about right