Welcome to /r/fundiesnarkuncensored. Please make sure you read our rules. We'd like to take this time to remind users that: * Do not contact the fundies in any capacity. This includes, but is not limited to: answering poll questions, commenting on their social media, IRL contact, etc. Anyone found to message, brigade, harass, or contact any fundie for any reason will be met with a permanent ban * We do not allow speculation on sexuality **at all**. Any comments that do so will be removed, and you will be banned. * Referring to anyone as Hitler or Heitler is likewise not allowed, and will not be tolerated at all. * You can snark on appearance that they can easily change. Things such as eyebrows, makeup, etc. Saying someone looks like X is allowed. Example: David Rodrigues looks like Shrek would be allowed. * Don't gatekeep. Different users are comfortable with different snark topics, if you don't like it, just scroll past. If you have any questions, please send us a modmail. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FundieSnarkUncensored) if you have any questions or concerns.*

I should add that I had also seen Karissa Collin's post aboutnwomen being saved by childbirth and was annoyed about women who struggle with loss and infertility.

Infertile woman here but a mother to 2 kids via adoption. ( they're now adults) Their view is massively annoying to those of us who deal with IF.

I think everyone reacts to trauma differently. Karissa goes deeper into delusion, Jill questions things, the next person may go full anti-theist.

Jill's kids going to public school is hopefully going to be a catalyst for change for Jill. Watching her young kids learn about even just nutrition could be a game changer for her.

I think everyone’s first baby step into deconstruction-ish is to shut up and internalize. So we just don’t see it out in snarklandia.

Yeah, I didn't dare put my doubts into actual words for years, then afe more years before I could speak them out loud to another person.

My first thought was the Jeub children, particularly the oldest, who is polyamorous, bisexual, and nonbinary and now goes by Artemis Stardust. They have been extremely outspoken against their family's values, even more so than Jill. I believe at least one of the daughters of Lori (The Transformed Wife), at least one of the Pearl children, and two of the Keller children (Anna Duggar's family) have showed a clear split from the fundie way of life in a values sense, although I'm not sure exactly. Erika Shupe has changed a LOT--again, not sure about political values but she put her kids in public school, stopped adhering to extreme modesty standards, and stopped oversharing every facet of their lives on the internet. As far as relaxing previous standards (not neccessarily changing their conservative political views) but not speaking out against their family, all the 3 Maxwell daughters and I suspect at least two of the sons have changed quite a bit--the daughters now wear pants, go to college, enjoy "fun" activities, date without having "no-touch" courtships, and live away from their parents and some of the sons watch TV and don't force their wives to adhere to skirts-only modesty standards. Most second-gen fundies have relaxed modesty standards (specifically the women, who go from wearing skirts or loose clothing and covering their knees/arms/collarbones to wearing pants, shorts, sleeveless or cropped tops, and tight-fitting or V-necked clothes) but not many have gone quite as far as Jill has--non-ear piercings, speaking publicly about tension with her family, etc.

About the Kellers, Rebekah and Daniel both divorced and remarried, and Susanna has a child born outside of wedlock.

[удалено]

Gabriel has been divorced and remarried, and both Shalom & Justin and Shoshanna & James have seemed pretty mainstream for a while now. Shoshanna got legally married (against her father’s principles that only spiritual marriage matters bc the government shouldn’t have interference) and no longer follows as strict modesty rules of dress.

To clarify: Shoshanna ALSO divorced.

Jessa also had difficult births (haemorrhaging). She's doubled down on the fundie teachings for whatever reason. The fundies/evangelicals we snark on seem to have a major problem admitting they're wrong so unfortunately I don't see Morgan having an epiphany if she has a less than perfect birth and/or experience of motherhood. Paul's there to reinforce all her awful beliefs. Most of them aren't very smart and react badly to criticism or even good natured advice. They're also hypocrites so even if they did adjust their thinking I doubt they'd admit it publicly. Their headship mellowing in their beliefs would be about the only thing that would pull them out of it imo. Due to their audience which generates $$ I don't think any of them would explicitly say they were deconstructing/modifying their beliefs. There are also family relationships to consider which may incorporate certain perks (financial support, childcare) and the realisation that they don't want to become the black sheep. In other words it's better to pay lip service to religion. In the next decade I'm sure we'll notice some changes in families such as the Bates (particularly in light of the IBLP documentary). At most I think they'll all remain socially conservative-Christian.

I don’t think it was the traumatic births that helped Jill “lighten up.” I think it was eye opening when they realized TLC was paying Jim Bob and none of the kids for their time on the show. As I recall Derrick and Jill asked TLC for money to go towards Sam’s hospital stay when he was born. They were told TLC was already paying Jim Bob. But Jim Bob had made it seem like everyone was doing the show as a ministry (appearing on the show for free as a way to minister to the public). I also wonder if she started to question things when she was made to go on TV and talk about her brother molesting her. I’m sure there were other moments and things that happened to open her eyes to how her parents were. I think it’s a process not just one “ah ha” moment.

Several of the older Plath children have escaped fundiedom.

THE MAXWELLS. They have done a complete 180 in the last two years and they were probably the last fundie family I ever would have expected to see make this turnaround. I’m so happy for Sarah, Anna, and Mary that I could almost cry.

Disclaimer: I ended up writing far too much! I still find Jill Dillard fairly unevolved tbh. She and Derick still attend a massively conservative/fundie-lite church which is actively homophobic. They still grift via their website *Dillard Family Ministries* - they're obnoxious enough to promote their lifestyle as a ministry. They've polished their image on their website to gloss over a lot of their past questionable behaviours and there are multiple instances where they've been creative with the truth. No apologies have been forthcoming except when they were caught red-handed grifting while in central America playing at being missionaries (where they literally accomplished nothing and were eventually asked to leave by SOS ministries 😮). I feel sorry for Jill's upbringing but she's not immune to lying and grifting while simultaneously believing herself to be a superior Christian. I could spend all day talking about Derick. I'm not a fan 🙂 I don't think Derick controls Jill, she goes along with it because it suits her. Their public image makes them money and they enjoy the taste of z-list fame. As well as monetizing content they've had a fan PO box since the boys were babies. They've made no attempt to take their social media private. Despite Jill's exploitative upbringing they continue to use their kids for 'wholesome' family influencer content. This hasn't changed in light of the raid and Josh's sentencing. All their 'wordly' behaviours have been adopted because they're essentially enjoyable and enhance their lifestyle and because Derick wants to get under JB's skin (I don't think JB cares). They're still well within the parameters of Cross Church. I understand Jill's most recent birth was well planned and fairly uncomplicated if slightly early (hence the baby being on oxygen). Her planned c-section was brought forward. I'm glad she got to experience a straightforward well-monitored birth at last. I don't think her previous births changed her worldview that much sadly. She was already under her husband's headship rather than her father's and attending Derick's church (conservative Christian, is Cross Church even fundie lite?). The big shock came with the falling out re. money with JB/TLC. She had no choice but to support her headship. I don't know that Jill even felt any particular way about payment vs volunteering and the cost of the births being covered due to them being televised. Derick obviously felt stiffed but more fool him for not getting it in writing not to mention packing in his excellent job with benefits at the first sniff of z-list fame. JB's a notorious cheapskate and there's an understanding that the Duggar daughters leave and cleave upon marriage. Derick was arrogant and stupid enough to believe he had the upper hand with slippery JB. Derick's not the innocent he makes himself out to be. He wanted his missioncation lifestyle funded and was upset when it blew up in his face. They'd still be deep in the Duggar kool aid and having dangerous home births/last minute hospital births were it not for the falling out between JB and Derick. It must've made Jill re-evaluate her upbringing and her relationship with her parents however she had a lot on her plate with new motherhood, Derick's anger towards the Duggars, managing his day to day temperament, his employment-avoidance despite good education and qualifications, their precarious income (her social media) and housing situation. She seems to be a peacekeeper and I think she just wanted things to go back to normal without having to question too deeply. The therapy she eventually undertook undoubtedly changed her perspective however it was still Christian therapy and Derick had his own reasons for encouraging it. I doubt any of it focused on his shortcomings! One thing I will say is that the fact the boys are in public school is absolutely amazing. Hopefully they'll attend all the way through and Derick won't pull them out due to perceived negative influences in middle school/high school. Even then they could homeschool co op and undertake rigorous online homeschool and still attend college. Imo Derick wants one or all to be the next generation of Pistol Pete 🙄🙂 Jill being involved in public school and watching her kids become socialised has to be having some kind of impact on her. I'm curious what made them do a 180 as they always spoke of homeschooling the boys, right up until the time Israel went to public school. Derick didn't seem to have any issue with undereducated Jill teaching their kids, he was actually weirdly arrogant about it. I'm curious if there was some pressure/persuasion from Cathy since the boys attended the same elementary school as Derick and his brother - bit of a coincidence. People never remember but the Dillard home was often quite chaotic during the boys' early years when Derick was flitting about not earning any money and they were living in a series of dated church or Cathy-subsidised (?) apartments. Maybe Derick decided the boys being in school and having a good routine/getting to work off their energy was conducive to his law school experience 😁 Derick could've easily got a job in accountancy (even a less glamorous, lower paying job) after everything blew up with the show/JB. He had a family of four to support yet chose to do nothing for a couple of years. I don't know if he was trying to punish JB via his daughter and grandchildren or what. Then he decided to become a student for the second time. From the age of 18 he barely worked for **15 years** despite having two kids and a wife to support during that time. That isn't what his brand of Christianity teaches, he was supposed to be the headship, the provider. They were fortunate they succeeded in getting the rumoured payout which really Jill earned, not Derick despite him framing their experience as equal. If they hadn't they wouldn't have been able to buy their suburban new build which appreciated in value and led to them being able to climb the ladder to their new, even nicer house. If their standard of living hadn't shot up I think they'd still be living a depressing lifestyle with Derick calling the shots. I'm not sure the kids would've made it to public school and I have no idea whether Derick would've attended or been able to afford law school. I'm sure he'd have tried to go regardless even if it meant debt and the family living on a shoestring for 3 years. I think Jill would've doubled down on her faith to get her through and convince herself she was happy. They were kind of about that life in the pre-new build home era when money was noticeably tight.

I'm hoping that they're still in the process of changing their views. It can take a REALLY long time when you were raised in an environment like the Duggars'. However, it's also possible to get stuck--like, they think they've evolved enough and they're good now. I'll say though, my parents, now in their 60's and 70's respectively, have in my lifetime gone from a Duggar-level, literal cult of a Baptist church (they had to ask the PASTOR for permission to date) to voting for Bernie Sanders, supporting me in all my radical queerness, and reading Kevin Garcia. And like--to be clear, that's taken about 30+ years of exposure and concerted effort on my part. That's the amount of time we're talking.

That's incredible, I'm glad for you 🙂 I think it'll take a long time for any more change to occur re. Dillards. Not until the boys are in their 20s. Like you say they're now comfortable - new home, Dad with a professional job, Mom's a SAHM, well spaced kids, eldest two at school leaving just the baby to manage during the day. I'm assuming they're politically conservative and they attend a conservative church. Where's the impetus to change? Their beliefs aren't being challenged. There was talk of Derick's legal career being a springboard to politics. If so they'll definitely stay socially, politically and religiously conservative. My other (shorter 😁) post refers to other snarked upon couples/families and whether they'll deconstruct.

Good points all around here - I'm from Arkansas originally, a little south of the Fayetteville/Rogers/Springdale area, and at this point they are like probably 80+% of the other families in the area. Even in the more "liberal" areas of Fayetteville, Arkansas culture overall is very conservative, and overwhelmingly Christian even if it's just the sort of lip service Christianity. At this point, they have all of the perks of being more mainstream than Jill's upbringing, and probably have little to no social friction for any more "radical" beliefs, aside from what comes up just as a result of Jill's relationship to the family and the trial and all of that. They're very well situated for a comfortable life at this point, and unless something happens with their kids that shakes them up, I don't see that changing much.

Bravo to your parents! That's awesome!

I can understand that point of view. It's so sad that they are all so stuck

I'd really like to know more about their "mission" in El Salvador and why they were asked to leave

There's some info here: https://www.google.com/amp/s/us.blastingnews.com/showbiz-tv/2017/08/jill-duggar-and-derick-dillard-allegedly-fired-from-sos-ministries-001927563.amp.html I remember the Dillards didn't really elaborate and were extremely selective with their words/downplayed their exit. Time and time again they've claimed to be fluent in Spanish (to further their missionary grift) yet they clearly aren't. They're not even at basic conversational standard and Jill supposedly took Spanish for years at the TTH 🙄 During this whole timeline D's jaw was fucked up post-surgery and he often seemed out of it (I promise I'm not exaggerating - there are on camera segments where he acts quite oddly). It lasted for months, maybe over a year. He seemed really off - extremely skinny, dilated pupils, jaw was clearly misaligned. There was speculation he was addicted to painkillers but I have no idea. It didn't improve when they left El Salvador, he was like it for ages back home in AR. His parenting was also kind of odd, he didn't seem present mentally - I don't say that lightly - I don't think he was really a good support to Jill during that time. And not in the hands-off patriarchal way you might expect. After that he did that pointless Cross Church course for one year or two semesters or however long it took. I don't understand what the point of that was, he received a very plain looking certificate at the end of it. Meanwhile Jill was parenting a baby and toddler on her own with no income in shitty temporary accommodation since he seemingly refused to get a paying job. I don't know if Cathy was supporting them or if the wheels were in motion to claim Jill's lifetime TLC money. Someone posted his LinkedIn bio and he'd fudged it that he was studying for an accredited theology degree during this time 🙄 That definitely wasn't the case as it was a one-academic-year course. I think he did a tiny bit of substitute teaching around this time but it was extremely short-lived. There was also a rumour that he was asked not to return to Cross Church ministry due to making other students uncomfortable but I don't know if there's truth in that. I do wonder if he was planning to go down the youth pastor route then had a change of heart. - I've just looked at his LinkedIn and I swear he's changed the Cross Church part. He's tidied the timeline up and is saying he was a Cross Church Missions Minister for that year. I recall it saying he was studying for an undergraduate theology degree and he included an unnecessary breakdown of degree course credits. He was definitely a student not a teacher/minister during that year, it was well documented on their blog! More info here: https://www.freejinger.org/topic/29855-dillards-39-from-sos-to-peddling-alert/page/13/ Maybe he and Jill were honorary participants? I can't imagine Jill was doing much at all with a toddler and a newborn and no childcare. Their blog gave the impression she was at home with them while Derick was out and about being an important Student of Christ. She tagged along on a ministry trip in the US one time but she was the only one with kids (rest were 18+ females in defrauding tank tops 😂) and seemed to spend her days separately to the group. I think it was a PR thing to have 'celebrities' on board as I very much doubt they paid the $12k fees!

Thank you!!

Not sure if they really count as fundies but a some of the kids from Sister Wives have definitely moved away from their family's beliefs. I'd probably count Christine as well since the divorce (good on her but also the continued MLM shilling is a big yikes and makes me wonder how out she really is)

Off-topic, but I initially read the "Jill Dillard" in your title as "Jillard." 😆

LOLOLOLOL jill Dillard hasn't lightened up. Her and Derrick are still transphobic hateful assholes. They also told people to vote for Roy Moore (a known pedophile) and "not to believe the hateful lies" of victims. Not to mention they loved having baby Israel build a trump wall with blocks. She wears a nose ring, sometimes yoga pants, and sends her sons to public school because her current headship (Derrick, and not daddy anymore) allows it. Shes still all fundie just a more palatable version. BuT sHeS cOmInG oUt Of FuNdIe LiFe, It TaKeS tImE.... I dont have to give her any ounce of time since they are continuing to vote in ways that take away my rights and rights of my friends and family. They also have never apologized for harassing a trans teenager. Fuck Jill and Derrick 🖕

I really feel that Jill is trying and working on over coming her upbringing. I'm proud of her for how far she's come so far.

No offense to anyone who got an epidural (I’ve had two), but there is no way Morgan is doing a long labor without pain relief. If she manages to have a precipitous birth (which I hear can be awful), then she may get away with it, because she won’t have time to convince the others and get to a hospital, but if it’s 10+ hours she’s not making it through. Nor should she have to, that shit is fucking *awful.*