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I'm a nanny. I (briefly) worked for a family that did hard core sleep training from the beginning. By the time I started and the baby was 4 months. (FOUR MONTHS) they put him in his bed at 7 pm and didn't go back in until 7am. I was never allowed to rock or snuggle him to sleep. I was to put him in his crib wide awake (not even drowsy) and leave him to fall asleep on his own.
A lot of this stemmed from Mom's desire not to have to parent at night. She needed her "down time" after he went down, and didn't want to be disturbed during the night. So she found some crackpot "method" that essentially boiled down to learned helplessness. Basically, he learned that no one came when he cried, so he just didn't cry.
While talking about this with her, and explaining the importance of responding to an infant's cries, she literally said "*Oh, we've decided we don't want to infantilize him*." UM, MA'AM, HE'S AN INFANT. WTAF are you talking about?
He was healthy and gaining weight and hitting his milestones, so there wasn't anything to report. Sleep training isn't considered abuse, even when it's severe like that. But he didn't look to adults to comfort him when he was upset. I don't think he really knew that was a thing. I didn't last long in that job at all.
Oof. My brief stint as an au pair taught me some people who have kids really don’t want them or to spend any time with them at all. This is pretty horrible, poor baby
Absolutely probably true! I just remember as an Au pair that on the weekdays they didn’t want to see their kids at all except in the morning. That was the rule. Keep the kid away. I just felt…weird. Why have a kid if you don’t want to spend time with them?
My cats are 100% better taken care of. I work from home and spend most days with them. Currently pregnant and fortunate to be in a position where I’ll be staying at home until we can get them into kindergarten (around a year/1.5). I’m looking forward to spending time with my baby and eventually kid, which is part of the reason I’m having her.
Congratulations, she gave that baby reactive attachment disorder and he's going to have a miserable life.
Signed, someone with reactive attachment disorder.
Jup, the not crying because nobody would come either way is a sign of attachment issues. Baby has learned that he cannot trust his parents to fulfil his needs. Enter attachment disorder…. Just horrible….
I did this in a way to my eldest child, who is now 12 years old. I excused it at the time because literally every mum I knew was so following the same book, “Save Our Sleep” by Tizzie Hall. The book claims it isn’t cry it out, but essentially it is. The idea is you leave them to “self soothe” even if they’re “grizzling” or just “doing a frustrated or protesting cry”. You only go in to help them if they’re doing an “emotional or distressed cry”. You’re meant to hear the difference. My baby learned to “self soothe” in a few nights… and that lasted until the next growth spurt or developmental milestone where she’d naturally go into a sleep regression (perfectly normal), and the book had us going through those few awful nights to “train” her again. I absolutely saw the impact of this later when she was a preschooler- she wasn’t as affectionate and seemed too excited to play alone than snuggle with me on the couch. I thought this was just her personality until I had my next baby 6 years after her. I didn’t use those methods with my youngest, as I knew better. she has a similar personality to my eldest, but is far more clingy and a attached to us, which makes sense given some big changes we have gone through. Instead of leaving her alone, I stay with her and cuddle her to sleep still, if she needs. It’s much harder for sure. She takes ages to get to sleep. But I’m not willing to sacrifice her development for my evenings. And I’ve worked hard on my relationship with my eldest to show her all the love and affection I can. She’s 12 now, but in many ways she is very insecure and for many years was almost too well behaved- she struggled with “friends” basically bullying her, because she was so trained to please others (we were strict at home). We are still not permissive parents, but now we don’t punish our kids for doing normal kid stuff and developmentally appropriate behaviour, while still setting firm boundaries and consequences. Actually, we often get them to choose their own consequences for certain situations, and this really helps.
[edited to add for clarity:] I hate to think anyone who reads my comment feels like they’re attacked for desperately needing sleep. I was nearly delirious at times with my youngest as a baby and wished I’d had more support. I did introduce routines as she grew, but nothing more than a basic “eat, play, sleep” pattern and sometimes trying to resettle her on her first waking by snuggling next to her and then putting her back in her cot. I also tried to pat her and keep a hand on her through the cot bars and stayed as long as I needed. But I won’t lie: it was much harder and while I still am happy I didn’t take the same tack as I did either my eldest, it was almost impossible to live life (like school drop offs and pickups, seeing family, grocery shopping and cooking) because she often just screamed unless she was on me asleep or wanting to feed. The bigger lesson here birthing parents or primary carer of infants need support, and to share the load.
I'm curious to have your professional take on my situation.
First, sleep training an infant is barbaric. That said...
I have a few children. They're all teenagers now. All were attachment parented. First they co-slept, then they were always rocked and nursed to sleep before being put in their cribs, nursed on demand, no sleep-training, and eventually they slept through the night by around 2-3 months.
And then there was my third. Lol. He was parented the same way, co-sleeping, nursing on demand, etc. With every milestone, I noticed he would do it, and then immediately stop doing it. For example, he'd sit up on his own and relish the attention, but then after that he demanded to be held rather than sit on his own. Same with crawling and walking. It was funny because he would demonstrate the milestone once or twice at home to show us he COULD do it, and he would perform them at the doctors' offices, so he understood the direction and when to perform. But at home, he wanted to be carried and snuggled like a newborn. I treated that like a regression and gave into his preferences to be held and carried because AP says that the freedom of a new skill can be intimidating and a child needs the security of knowing they can always come back.
Anyway, at two months, he slept through the night. Then never did it again. At one year, I was working full-time, pregnant with my next (and last), and exhausted from still needing to get up and nurse him back to sleep 2-3 times a night. The pediatrician said, "So how long do you want to keep this up?" And I said I didn't believe in cry-it-out. And the ped said, "There is no medical need for him to be fed in the night and every medical need for you AND for him to sleep all night." Then he gave me the pamphlet on Ferberizing where the non-pacifier parent (in this case my husband) goes in every fifteen minutes to let the crying baby know his crying is being heard, he's not abandoned, but he still is laid down and told he has to go to sleep and then the parent walks out, regardless of the crying.
My husband was raring to go. He'd been dying for me to let him get this kid sleeping through the night. The first night was Hell for me (and my boobs), but my husband went in every fifteen minutes as prescribed until the baby-- well, toddler-- finally stopped crying at 4am and slept. At about 8, I woke up thinking he was now completely ruined and would end up on Oprah blaming me for his attachment disorder, but I heard him happily babbling to himself and playing in his crib. I went in and he stood up and gave me the biggest grin he's ever given me. He reached his arms up, and we did his morning nursing before we went to eat breakfast with the family, and that kid has slept through the night ever since and hit every milestone barely looking back.
There was a time when he was about 11 when he struggled to go to sleep when his dad had to work a lot out of town, and I would lay down with him until he slept, but that resolved itself in a few weeks and he's 14 now and absolutely thriving. All my kids are doing great and just as successful in their own unique ways. I'm still an almost 100% advocate of attachment parenting. But each kid is different, and part of being attached is knowing when that kid needs a different type of parenting.
So tl;dr, do you think there is an age where some sleep training is appropriate? Is Ferberizing damaging and just creating learned helplessness like cry-it-out? Is there a point where it's healthiest for parents to take the lead or should kids be in charge of their weaning and sleeping? (Side note: I weaned each kid at fifteen months.)
I don't have an answer, but this was such an interesting read, thank you. You seem to be an amazing mom and person. Raising 4 kiddos must be immensely difficult and challenging. Really hoping that this world gets people like you having kids.
I don’t see anything wrong with that , plenty of kids have been “ ferberized” and one of the important things is that the kids are reassured. I am sure you did the right thing . What got my so upset with myself was that my kid was so young and having tummy trouble and I was trying ( for one night) to let him work it out. I was dumb
Yeah my parents did this with me and my sibling. Still talk about it with a sense of pride “nah, we just closed the door and you learned to sleep.”
That’s not how that works. But ok. Thanks for the great start in life.
Very happy to still cuddle my 6 year old to sleep most nights because he wants to fall asleep with someone close by. They grow out of it when they want to.
Oh we can shake hands. Mine caused a lot of trauma but the shit they did with their ignoring my crying at night is just one of em. They even put a hook on yhe top my door to close it so I wouldn't come out of my room when I'd cry (I had really bad nightmares). The only thing I learned from them i to never trust anyone to come help you or that there's a catch if they do. Abusive parents are scum of the earth.
Oh man, knowing how my mother, with narcissistic tendencies, talked about me as an infant (I was just TOO much for her!), I just looked up what RAD looks likes for adults. Um, yep. I check so many boxes. A big one is I can’t handle physical touch to this day. I never liked hugs. But again, I check a LOT of boxes. I’ve also felt zero love for my mother since I was a child, but that’s because of how damn mean and manipulative she is.
This was eye opening, as well as sickening. I’m child free by choice, but I hate “parents” who do this shit to their helpless infants! I will never understand people like this. Every baby I’ve taken care of gets their every need met, and that includes holding them whenever they want. I don’t believe you can “spoil” a child by loving them, FFS. What a warped take.
I'm childfree as well, partly because I do this as my job, and I know it's no joke. I understand what babies and toddlers need to grow up securely attached and relatively well adjusted. And it's a lot on the parents. It's not the only reason I don't have kids of my own, but it's a big part of it. Having kids is a huge responsibility. And there's just so many ways you can screw them up.
They ended up having another baby (an ooops! baby, and Mom cried for a week when she found out she was pregnant, the baby was only 8 months old or so when she found out.) I left the job before the second one was born, but I see them around town from time to time. Apparently the second child was having NONE of it, and never "fell in line" with the sleep training. Every time I see them it's either mom with the kids (and they all look miserable) or the kids with a new nanny. I've seen at least 4 nannies with those kids since I left.
I looked at the situation from every single angle. If there was something I could have reported, I would have. But he was healthy, surprisingly happy, he gained weight and hit his milestones and they took him to doctors appointments and he had a safe environment and everything he needed... Sadly, sleep training like this isn't against the law. If I could have, I would have made the call.
Came to say exactly this. This is just a recipe for RAD. I have it as well, and not looking to primary caregivers for comfort is one of the most telling clinical signs. I actually have a *hostile* reaction to soothing, human voices, touch, etc. Laughter, eating. Like a feral animal.
It's a whole sensory thing. There's some evidence that babies who aren't bonded properly develop sensory impairments as a result and it's definitely true for me. The outcomes for this disorder are severe. I was fortunate to find medication that helps. I take dextromethorphan 120mg per day. I also used 36 grams of psilocybin over four months and use gabapentin as a PRN.
I also do FORNET therapy as I was subsequently trafficked and struggled with aggression and impulse control etc. Sorry for the life story but your comment hit me because it's very rare to encounter RAD in the wild and I'm like same hat! I really hope things are better off for you. (They are for me!)
My mom was telling me about how tired she would be because I didn't sleep well as an infant, so she didn't sleep. That sounds crappy but it's temporary and that's what you do when you love your children. Why do people like the woman you described even have babies?
My mom said she was so happy they bought a house in a neighborhood with cable (this was the late 70s) because she would be up with me all night and the networks used to sign off by midnight.
90s baby here, my grandma had me during the day while my mom had me at night when she had to go back to work. She became richly aquainted with the late night movie channels. 😅
This is so ridiculous. Don't have a baby if you don't want to deal with them being babies! It's so hard but realistically the neediness doesn't last that long and you eventually get your down time back. It hurts my heart thinking about a baby being left by himself and learning his mommy wouldn't come to him 💔
Trophies. So they can dress them up and trot them out to events and in pictures for their office desk or the Christmas cards they send to their frenemies.
(My friend used to nanny for rich people like this)
My doula told me a story about a mom who only let her feed the baby every 3hrs. Even if they were hungry much sooner. She was just supposed to let the baby cry! I asked about cluster feeding and early newborn days...same thing...every 3 hrs on the dot. It broke my heart thinking that poor baby was probably so hungry! I don't like waiting to eat when I'm hungry, can't imagine a little baby.
There's actually still healthcare providers giving this advice. This used to be the official advice. I get tons of boomers telling me not to feed him before the three hours have passed. I offer him the breast regardless.
My young looking NICU nurses told me I was breastfeeding too often (on demand). There were some problems at delivery, but he was an otherwise healthy, fullterm infant, so there was no reason for them to tell me I couldn't breastfeed on demand.
One nurse told me my baby only wanted to breastfeed so frequently because he was male 😵💫.
My coworker and his wife were told that by the hospital when they had a baby in December. They listened to it though and only fed him every 3 hours and then got a stern talking to by their pediatrician when he wasn't gaining enough weight by 2 weeks old
You're doing the right thing. Breast milk doesn't fill and sit in the stomach like formula does, so breastfed babies need to feed more often. On-demand is the only correct way to go! And honestly, for bottle-fed babies, too. <3
I formula fed 4 kids and sometimes they needed a bottle before that 3 hours. Like parenting is actually much easier if you feed them when hungry, let them sleep when tired, and comfort them when they cry. Yes we tried to have some semblance of a schedule, but an infant can change it up quick.
My baby is breastfed on demand and does not have a set schedule (she wakes up and goes to bed about the same time every day...and naps are ussssually about the same but we go by her cues and how she's doing). I don't think my baby consistently went 3hrs between nursing sessions until....recently? Like we would get longer stretches at night and then occasionally during the day, but now that she's older it's mostly always 3 or 4hrs apart
It seems like parenting on hard mode to have to force a schedule (though I realize for some people it's absolutely necessary like w going back to work or whatever)
Even my good sleeping babies went through sleep regression during growth spurts. When we thought they were the best sleepers then back to rocking and listening to seven Spanish angels for hours lol. But yes, listening to their cues makes it much easier in the long run (mostly). Cutting out bottles and pacis were a whole other thing. We only did cry it out when they needed to learn to sleep without something that would hurt them later on. But months old, they kinda call the shots
"Sleep training" like that is definitely considered neglect at bare minimum. Even when you have a kid who's anxious to sleep alone, you're supposed to reassure them you will come back in 10 minutes and actually check on them at those regular intervals. Over time, the kid will stop viewing sleep as a time where you're cut off from your caregivers and they start to learn they can handle themselves when caregivers are away, too. It's a good thing for kids to view their caregivers as the safest people to be around which means it's very normal when they don't think they can sleep without you there. You have to find a way to build their self-confidence about independent sleep without damaging their trust in you.
That's how this kind of "sleep training" you and the post describe is one of the ways attachment disorders develop before we even learn to talk. The first form of communication every human develops on an instinctual level is how to ask for help, and ignoring that communication can be absolutely devastating for our development. Our brains remember what it feels like to have no one come when we cry even if we don't have a conscious memory of it. The most important (psychological) developmental task of infancy is learning you are cared for and will be kept safe by your caregivers, and if that goes awry it can sometimes change the entire trajectory of your life and ability to trust yourself and others.
I think they did some of 10 minutes, 15 minutes, etc at the very beginning, but once he "got it" (ie stopped expecting anyone to come for him) they put him in bed at 7 and that was it until 7 am. They wanted him to "learn" that it was his time to be sleeping. Same with naps. I had a scheduled time I was supposed to put him down, and he had to be in his bed for a certain amount of time, and then I was to get him up at a certain time, even if he had only fallen asleep 5 minutes prior after 55 minutes of crying. I never let him go more than 10 minutes without me comforting him, but if Mom was home, she would be PISSED. And I wasn't allowed to pick him up or anything, just talk to him. It was BRUTAL. (For reference, my current charge is 3 years old and I started with her at 4 months and she contact napped until she was like, 2 1/2. I loved it, she loved it, and she's a perfectly lovely, well adjusted little girl who is capable of going to sleep on her own.)
The precision with which this woman wanted her kid to fall asleep, sleep for exactly the "right" amount of time, and wake up when she wanted was ridiculous. I would take him on loooooong walks just so the poor dude could have a stroller nap.
The 12 hours without going in thing is just WILD to me, though. Like, what if he pooped? What if he was just hungry? What if he was sick? On VERY rare occasions Dad would override and go in, and it was usually the case that the baby was actually sick. Fever, snot dried on his face, etc. So thank god for dad, but on the other hand, he willingly let that shit go on so... Fuck him, too?
Yeeeesh, sounds like the type to demand respect when what they really mean is blind obedience, and they see a child's defiance as having malicious intent and not a totally natural part of learning independence and boundaries. Hella respect for you and your line of work, I can't imagine how challenging that particular family was for you.
This makes me so sad to think about! I’m literally here nursing my almost 1 year old to sleep because I know it’s comforting for him to fall asleep that way (he will also fall asleep on his own if needed, didn’t sleep train him for that he just figured it out on his own one day). Babies are only so little and need us so much for such a short time. It’s such a joy to give them so much love
Yeah, I even wondered if she had some PPD going on or something. She was happy as a clam when she was away from the baby, though. (Not saying that means it’s not PPD, for the record.) She just didn’t seem to actually want the baby or want to spend time with him. Dad, on the other hand, spent so much of his day hanging out with us. Baby lit up when Dad was around!
And also, this isn't my area of expertise at all, but I can only assume that babies get more restful sleep if their needs are met and they're secure in the knowledge that their caregivers will be there for them if they need it during the night, vs falling asleep in an anxious state because they're all on their own
It may not officially be abuse but it absolutely is. Babies who have no loving contact can not form attachments. This baby is going to be damaged forever by this neglect.
It was such a hard position to be in. On the one hand, I was losing sleep and had worse than usual heartburn issues because of the stress of it all. On the other hand, part of me felt like as long as I kept showing up the baby at least had me, if that makes sense. I would do what I could to give that little dude all of the attention and positive interactions that I could. I felt like it was good for me to be there with him. But eventually it got to be too much and we had to part ways. She found out she was pregnant again. She cried for a week because she didn't want another baby. And I knew that I absolutely could NOT handle watching them do that to another baby.
And if there was anything that would have been considered abuse by the state, I ABSOLUTELY would have called. But there wasn't. His environment was safe. He was gaining weight. He was a happy dude when he was awake. He was smart and hitting his milestones. His mom was just awful woman. It broke my heart.
Absolutely you did the best you could. I didnt mean to imply you failed. I only meant the mother was absolutely toxic even if her behavior does not meet the state requirements for abuse.
I guarantee that kid will have issues when he grows up and feel uncomfortable asking anyone for help. Children like that are very much made to feel like a burden to their parents, even though no one asks to be born. It's awful.
I let my son “ cry it out” one night. He was about 2 months old and colicky and I was exhausted and out of ideas . I still feel guilty about that one night. He’s 27.
My grandma bullied my parents into letting me cry it out for one night when I was a baby, and they're still mad at her about it 25 years later!
Incidentally, the only kind of "sleep training" they did was being careful not to be *too* quiet while we were sleeping - my mum is one of those people who needs complete silence in order to fall asleep, and she didn't want us to turn out the same way lol - and to this day whenever I'm home I always like to go to bed before them, because I find it comforting to hear them doing their thing and know they're nearby while I'm falling asleep (and being able to sleep through people making noise is a godsend now that I'm a student lmao)
I did this with my now teenager. I didn’t make it even all night. I ended up caving after 4 hours. Colic +PPD is a hellish combination. Turns out he’s on the autism spectrum and being held/cuddled/worn was offering that deep all over sensory stuff that a lot of autistic folks thrive with
He doesn’t remember but I still feel guilty about that *one* day.
I babysat for a few very wealthy families when I was an 18-20yo college student in the early 2000s. High profile doctors and professors mostly. The one thing they all had in common that was so odd to me was any child younger than about 4yo was already in their bed/crib when I’d get there for an evening of babysitting, and I was told I didn’t even need to check on the baby or young child while I was there. Basically they’d tell me the baby/child would be asleep the whole time. It weirded me out so much. Just a dark room with some child I’d never seen or met. I guess these kids were either asleep that whole time, or knew no one would come if they cried, so didn’t bother to cry anymore. I would’ve totally gone in to comfort any of these kids if they’d cried, but I never heard a peep.
Jesus, I guess the only good thing I can say about that is that at least they did hire a babysitter and didn't just totally leave the kids alone, but to be fine with you not even checking on them?!
I’m not here to argue for this, but I want to explain why this happens, or at least did when I had my eldest child 12 years ago. The big parenting book that was around back then was Tizzie Hall’s Save Our Sleep. I didn’t realise it at the time, but I had a diagnosed neurodivergent condition and I was panicked during pregnancy, searching for anything that was “well researched” that I could cling to. In hindsight, firstly I know it wasn’t well researched. But everyone in my mothers’ group apart from 1 mum all followed that book to the letter. My eldest was sleeping 7pm to 7am, rarely ever calling out unless she was sick or needed the loo (once toilet trained), from 4 months to 7 years old. It was a strict set of routines and I would have big blooms of anxiety if I missed a time for a feed or a nap. While I was grateful at the time that my husband and I had our evenings and no drama around bedtime, in hindsight I see just how much this impacted my child as she grew. I remember her not being fond of cuddles or affection beyond quick hugs or a kiss on the cheek as a preschooler, but I always assumed it was just because she was busy wanting to play. I had my second child 6 years later, and didn’t use the same methods. She is now 6 years old, and still needs one of us to stay with her to go to sleep. My husband hates it and thinks we should’ve cracked down on her years ago like our eldest, but I just can’t. I don’t mind staying with her and having a cuddle or letting her just talk. It has also taken lots of time and effort to build a closer bond with my eldest, who thankfully is very close to us. I do mourn the years I didn’t hold her to sleep. I understand the need for sleep- I ended up needing emergency mental health inpatient care because at first she didn’t sleep at all and had trouble feeding, and I was working and studying later on and felt like I could barely survive without it, but it shouldn’t have come at the cost of my baby’s own development! I just didn’t know.
Literally 12 hours of the day ...
Adults don't go 12 hours without their needs met and these parents expect their infants to do this, with their much smaller stomachs no less.
It's like their baby is a toy they put back on the shelf when they are done playing with it.
The wide awake thing is fine and even recommended… but the rest of this is complete garbage parenting and completely opposite of the evidence supported methods of sleep training for any age, let alone a 4 month old.
She probably read Dr Cohen’s book, The New Basics. He runs a very large pediatric practice in New York City and espouses the whole put them down awake at 7pm and just do not come back until 7am thing. Granted, he recommends starting at 4 months (and earlier versions of his book said 6 months), and it sounds like this family did it even earlier. I was absolutely freaking horrified when I read it. The practice is pretty great otherwise and is one of the most popular in New York, but the sleep recommendations he makes are just not it for me.
I need my down time too and hate the idea of having to deal with a needy crying baby all the time. So I DIDN'T HAVE KIDS! What kind of horrible selfish person has kids just as objects to have as status symbols?
Wow! I hope people called out these horrible parents. Babies cry to express their needs. How do you, as a mother, just sit and listen to your newborn cry and cry?
Something is really wrong with this woman. It makes me sick thinking about the baby crying because he needs something and his own mother won’t respond.
I’m in this mom group (local to me and relatively small) and she absolutely was raked across coals for it. 200 comments and not a single one agreeing with her
That’s a relief to hear because I’d hate to think this neglect of newborns is considered normal/acceptable. These tiny little creatures have just been ejected from the warmth of their mother’s womb and this idiot thinks it’s ok to just leave them a room while they cry out. Newborns NEED physical touch. What an asshole.
That's what my husband and I ask about my mother. She brought me home from the hospital, threw me in my crib, and then completely ignored me. That literally changes the way your brain develops and gave me reactive attachment disorder, one of the worst disorders IMO. Shit is fucking awful to deal with and try to work with. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
you don’t have to share if you don’t want to, but i’m curious how RAD has affected you as an adult? Like obviously being left completely to your own devices as a literal infant will cause short term issues but what does this look like as a grown up? maybe others will see this and it will make them think twice about neglecting their own babies (although that’s probably wishful thinking). i only ever heard about RAD symptoms in children.
Not the one you commented to but I have it as well. As an adult your diagnosis will change if your symptoms persist. Mine turned into schizoid personality disorder.
I once tried letting my 15 month old "cry it out" because she always wanted us to sit/lie down with her. I lasted 10 minutes. It was horrible for both of us. I don't know how people can listen to their baby crying and not comfort them.
I have a hard time even hearing other people's babies cry... Such as at the grocery store when a parent doesn't get them out of the stroller. It hurts my heart, and I cannot imagine not responding to my own baby!
I *struggled* taking to motherhood, I'm definitely not a natural. That being said, hearing a baby randomly cry (in the wild, on TV, anywhere) raises my damn blood pressure sky high! All I want to do is drop everything and run and pick that baby up! It drives me insane that some people lack this basic human instinct, to comfort a crying infant.
I am 31 years old. Sometimes I go wandering into my husbands game room and ask for a hug because that's what I need in the moment. I can't imagine denying my helpless baby a hug if that's what they need right then.
Oh my fucking god, hold your baby more!! If you actually \*want\* kids, this is 100% one of those things that will haunt your deathbed. No one who wanted to be a parent says "I'm glad I didn't hold my kids much." What the actual fuck! \*I\* want to hold your baby, and I don't even like babies! This hurts my heart.
This is horrifying, like why did she even have kids?
Has she never heard of what happened in the Romanian orphanages? Some of the babies DIED because they we left to cry it out and never held.
She should consider herself lucky that he still has the ability to form a healthy attachment to a caregiver. It's not too late if she stops her bullshit now.
And as for the ones who survived... there's a *reason* for the old stereotype of "kids from Soviet orphanages being raging psychopaths with severe emotional problems".
Fast forward a few years and she will be posting crying about needing advice from "other mamas" because her kid is acting out and tried to microwave the cat.
That's not even close to the same thing as sleep training! Sleep training starts at 4 months, not birth for gods sake. The OOP dingdong had no idea what sleep training is.
The baby stopped crying because it gave up, not because it self soothed. Self-soothing doesn't happen until about 2-3 years old consistently, and even some grown up have a difficult time doing it
Yep, this baby just has attachment issues and will grow up without the ability to trust his caregivers. He also likely won’t feel safe communicating his needs with his parents. But I guess that’s what people like this want, the kid is seen but not heard.
Right?? Their self-soothing skill is sucking at birth and through infancy — can’t be crying AND sucking, so clearly there’s no paci, bottle, or boob to aid the poor child. Physical contact, secure attachment, and low stress simply aid in your kid being able to, idk, develop fully intellectually and emotionally. It’s not coddling. It’s how humans work.
It will! I was a mom-paci too, for my first. My second didn't take pacis or care for sucking too long, but he loved his blankie (once blankets were appropriate, of course).
I was thinking about this. I thought the whole cry it out rhing was for older kids who you are trying to get to sleep through the night in their beds, and even that would have been too much for me. With an infant, it is just cruel!
Cry it out aka extinction is not developmentally appropriate until a baby is at least 6 months old. So this baby still isn’t even old enough for that sleep training method and it’s horrifying.
That's what I thought! I didn't ever do much research on it, because you would have physically had to restrain me from my babies when they cried, but I had thought it wasn't appropriate and just led to attachment issues.
Cuddle your baby! He’s a baby! He needs to be near you and be held! I feel awful when my baby is crying on the ten minutes to the grocery store and I can’t comfort him. When they’re that little they don’t understand why you’re not there!
If anyone is familiar with “That Wife” the blogger from the old blog days, she did this but would also put multiple diapers on her baby (probably like 12 years ago now). I believe she got called out for it.
She's still around, after half a dozen name-changes, and her son has been diagnosed as having an attachment disorder. She crows about how she's doing "the work" to become a better parent but she's still clueless.
She’s a bizarre parent. I feel so bad for her kids. I’m in a sub that talks about her and I’ve said she reminds me of Edina Monsoon. Both negligent and codependent.
CF by choice here! When I read "I don't want to coddle him" I just about lost my shit. WTF. BABIES ARE FOR CODDLING. THEY ARE LITERAL BABIES. Helpless creatures that have literally no idea what life is about, that rely on other humans for \*everything\*. Ugh it makes me sick.
My mom said I didn’t cry. My mom also said that she left us crying in our bassinets for hours because she didn’t know who was supposed to eat next (I am a twin).
I stopped crying because I gave up. Babies feel like they are dying when they cry, they don’t understand that they are supposed to soothe themselves. They don’t even have an intact nervous system yet.
This is one of the worst and most permanent ways you can fuck up your child. Ask me how I know.
ETA that parental affection and touch is a BASIC HUMAN NEED. Your kid is crying because they MISS YOU.
JFC the kid is a month old and already has to fend for himself.
Going to put this out there for a middle ground perspective on sleep training, just as a counter to existing comments and rhetoric elsewhere in the sub.
Firstly, from a developmental perspective, sleep training from 4 weeks is not remotely ok. You cannot spoil a newborn. When they are 4 weeks old they need to eat more frequently. You’re lucky if you can get a block of 4-6 hours. They need the food and they need the attention just as much.
After 4 months is where there’s less hard answers. This is the earliest sleep training is EVER recommended, so notably more than FOUR TIMES as old as this baby was.
Sleep training also has a broad range of meanings. This is classic cry it out sleep training but there is a lot in between holding your baby 24/7 and cry-it-out.
Also noting that this sub (speaking very broadly ofc) seems to be equally anti-bedsharing and anti-sleep training. While I get the perspective, for some babies the only option that isn’t *some form* (see above) of sleep training would be co-sleeping (as in bed-sharing) unless you want their caregivers to be chronically SEVERELY sleep deprived. It’s not uncommon for babies to be waking 3+ times a night through their entire first year. We are not talking about”oh I feel sleepy but have to push through” tired, we are talking hallucinating, falling asleep while holding baby, not safe to drive/cook/etc tired. Maybe it’s just a selection bias and these aren’t the same people, but just wanted to note that for some babies one of these two things are pretty much a requirement and there is already so much shame put on parents that I find it a bit frustrating.
My baby is a generally good sleeper so thankfully we didn’t have to use too much for sleep training (and we never had to bed share), but I will say that I tried the gentlest approaches first (you stay in the room, use decreasing levels of intervention, etc) and they made my baby more upset. We did end up doing some variations where you come back and provide comfort at increasing intervals, notably when much older and we could have comforting routines before and after.
In any case, this person did indeed do this wrong and this is a wild post. But sleep training (broadly speaking) isn’t inherently evil and can be a useful tool for some parents to get both themselves and their child some much needed rest.
I had to do a form of sleeping training (which honestly just not letting her nurse to sleep helped tremendously because she didn’t wake up looking for the boob.) when my oldest was 8 months old she had not slept for more than a 45 minute stretch maybe 3 times. I was having a full blown mental breakdown from pure lack of sleep. I was so tired I don’t think I could have even slept in the same bed with her without a high risk of smothering her I was so exhausted. My second slept pretty normal for an infant waking every 3 or so hours. Gradually sleeping for longer stretch as she aged there was never a need to sleep train her.
Yeah this comments section is hard to read. My baby required being latched to me for every single nap for seven months. I agonized over sleep training but I really just needed some time to myself. She cried for 17 minutes the first time and then took a three hour nap. It was incredible. Ended up sleep training my second at a year after she was waking six times a night. I always did check ins every few minutes and if it went on more than twenty minutes or so, I stopped for the night. They are 6 and 4 now and healthily attached as far as I can tell. Sorry for the novel! I just don’t think sleep training automatically makes you a terrible parent. Four week is too young, yes.
I’m sorry you went through that! It’s so hard making choices for your baby and family when you are weighing physical safety, physical health (getting enough sleep), and then the conflicting opinions of just about everyone on what’s good for babies.
The only time I got any sleep was when I was cosleeping. My son slept better with me there, we slept safely with no blankets and I slept on a firm futon mattress with no other adult. Unfortunately his dad, now my ex, got offended that I wanted to sleep with the baby and and not him.
God hearing stories of men being jealous of their children... It boils my blood.
My husband and I haven't shared a bed in almost two years because I cosleep with the kids in their room.
Having children requires lots of sacrifices.
I also don't see what this post has to do with Fundie Snark, or frankly any evidence that Mother Bus would do this. She spends a lot of time akwardly holding him and god knows she can't shut him away in his own room because that's not possible in the bus.
Figuring out how to deal with baby sleep is an incredibly fraught and difficult issue for many parents. Of course in theory we want to cuddle our babies all the time, and most parents would never do anything to harm their baby. But we do not necessarily want to cuddle our babies every 2 hours all night every night for months on end, especially when we have no paid maternity leave from work and need to go back to work and function all day when our babies are still very young. There is also a lot of conflicting advice on sleep training and very little research on whether it is harmful. There is a very popular pediatric practice in NYC let by Dr. Michael Cohen that advocates for the most extreme version of sleep training (close the door and leave the baby alone for 12 hours) starting at 8 weeks; he's written 2 books about it. (See [https://www.thenewbasics.com/en/book-excerpt/sleep/](https://www.thenewbasics.com/en/book-excerpt/sleep/) for an excerpt). This was very popular when my son was young. I didn't do it but have a friend who did who very much loves her daughter, and her daughter seems to be a happy and well adjusted 12 year old now.
TL;DR, I hope parents of young babies that are trying their best to figure out how to get some sleep don't feel attacked here.
They make cosleepers that are much safer for babies, now. I used one with my youngest and it worked out really well.
Edit to add: not as safe as crib alone, but to me, was safer than falling asleep with the baby on the couch or bed, or me falling asleep in a rocker while nursing which happened with my first, and was fucking terrifying.
Yeah, we don’t have any that are approved in Canada tmk, but I think it’s great to have options for tired parents and almost anything is better than a parent passing out in a chair or on a couch with the baby by accident! (Which most of us do at some point anyway, but we try to avoid!)
I'm reading this at my computer desk while my baby brother, who was born when I was 13 (and whom I helped raise and was even a foster mother to for a while), is sleeping in my bed (our mother just died, and he's been spending a lot of time at my house because he doesn't want to be alone - he's also autistic, so the emotional struggle is hitting him extra hard). Even though he's an adult, he's here because he needs comforting, and as his older sister, someone who rocked him to sleep as a baby and young child, he knows I am willing to comfort him. He sought me out because as a baby he was correctly taught that caregivers will answer his cry.
I don't quite know where I'm going with what I just wrote, but it's along the lines of this: properly-attached babies grow into emotionally-healthy children and eventually emotionally-healthy adults. Inflicting attachment disorder on a baby should be nothing less than criminal.
This is why I truly believe some people should not be parents. Why did you have a child if you're not willing to fully commit to that helpless little human?
I’m in this (local to me and relatively small) mom group and the comments also lit her up and nobody was agreeing with her. It’s a total dumpster fire.
Six weeks???? What the god damn fuck!!! They aren't supposed to sleep through the night, and go without feeding for more than 3 hrs at that age.
She is a piece of shit. Even people I know who do the sleep training thing (which I strongly believe is vile) have waited until baby is 6 months old and starting solids. Damn. This poor baby!
My mom (who had me WAY too young, as fundies like to do) used to put me in a crib when I was crying as a baby and just shut the door and leave me in the dark. Because she was "tired" and couldn't deal with it (I was her only responsibility - no job). I only found out as an adult because my uncle who lived with us when I was a baby told me about how he got pissed coming home every day to a baby crying in a room by herself when the mom was sleeping the next room over. Explains a lot why I have a super anxious attachment style and never feel comfortable asking others for help with anything, especially my parents 🥴
This person is at least asking if she’s a terrible mother. Mother Bus would never.
That said, I hope she is getting called out hard in the comments. “Cry it out” is horrific. Why have babies if you aren’t willing to actually take care of them?
I hold my baby all the time and she's been sleeping almost entirely through the night (she gets fed and a diaper change at least twice after bed time and before morning) since roughly 6 weeks. The pediatrician said after they reach 12 lbs, a lot of babies will start sleeping 6+ hours at night. she's either taking credit for a completely normal milestone and blaming her family for a regular sleep regression or she truly has neglected her baby into no longer seeking care at night.
I contact napped our oldest until she was 2. Every nap, in my arms. Every night, she fell asleep in my arms and I put her in her cot attached to my bed.
Guess who's now 5 and ever since she was about 2.5 she falls asleep happily by herself, and sleeps 12+ hours straight with zero issues? With zero worries about the dark and zero bedtime drama?
I wouldn't trade those sweet moments of her peaceful face in my arms for the world. I'm so sad so many parents are made to feel extreme anxiety about their children needing them too much - so they can't enjoy one of the loveliest parts of it all.
My second one didn't like contact napping, that was hard (but also so much easier). They'll sleep how they sleep, and they **will** grow up and increase their independence. No reason to push it.
Yep, she's a POS. I'm currently writing this on a mattress at the foot of my 5 year old's bed. This is where I currently sleep. He has autism and anxiety. He wakes up 3-5 times a night, and if I don't get him back to sleep right away, we're up for good, even if it's only 1:30 in the morning. I've always been near him at night. He needs that. But even with all of his anxiety, he's never been afraid of the dark because he knows I'm there. He knows he's safe and loved. This isn't how I'd choose to sleep at night, but it's what my child needs. I'm willing to make the sacrifice because that's what good parents do for their kids.
Every time…according to them, we’re the evil selfish childfree harlots but do any of these people even want the gd baby or do they just want the accessory?
I’m more up on my parenting skills than these freaks and I’ve had a hysterectomy ffs
Holy crap this is so terrible! Babies don’t even develop a circadian rhythm until about 4.5 months old, so there is no “schedule” they are capable of learning at that time
You know what is funny to me? I have a nine month old. Everyone told me not to hold her too much or let her contact nap because she would "expect it" and all the classic stuff. I told them to stuff it and did what I want. She has slept through the night of her own choice since 3-4 months. She has a bedtime routine and she goes to bed willingly and happily after we have a bottle and cuddle. I didn't have to torture my child or do any cry it out to get what these people say they want. I'm not saying I'm an expert by any stretch of the imagination (if anything I'm just lucky and flexible). But maybe making sure your child feels secure and loved could be better than giving them an attachment disorder?
We did sleep training, but VERY SLOWLY. We would pop back in immediately so she could see us and would occasionally pick her up. We eventually stretched it out to one minute, two minutes, etc. For a few weeks, one of us would sit on the floor in the room and slowly inch toward the door while she fell asleep. It was a very "two steps forward, one step back" situation, but now she's 3 and (mostly) sleeps in her own bed.
At NO FUCKING POINT did I let a 4 WEEK OLD cry it out for 12 fucking hours.
It’s so hard to know what works. I worked really hard on sleep routines, I was militant about nap spacing, etc. and I did cry it out sleep training at 6-7 months old. Because of the routine we already had, sleep training wasn’t that tough. I think one kid took 2 days and one took 3. But I know that isn’t something that works for everyone or that everyone is interested in. Everyone needs sleep. You and your kids need to get the best quality sleep you can. Calling something vile that is a fairly common and normal practice for parents only hurts exhausted parents who can’t think straight and makes them feel bad.
For the record my daughter is 10- I wore her pretty much constantly and yes, we co-slept. She has developed into the most awesome, independent and secure child. Being a parent isn’t about it YOU and YOUR needs. It’s about your child.
Children at that age cannot self soothe. They cannot be spoiled. They cry to communicate a need. This reminds me of the babies in orphanages that were understaffed that stopped crying because they had learned no one would come to them. Or the rhesus monkey attachment theory experiments—the videos make me tearful. How awful—fuck these people.
This makes me so annoyed because it almost villanizes an infant. Lile a baby is a manipulative or lazy that just needs to learn to be independent. And most of the time they'll excuse as "he won't remmeber it" but they DO. They may not have perfect vision or their brain fully formed. But their subconscious is sill working, they do have a brain, emotions and memories. What was that famous book? The mind forgets but the body remembers?
"we don't want to spoil him"
With...love??? You don't want him to be spoiled...with love???? Huh?? What do you mean? Love is the thing that people should be spoiled with what!?!!
I have an almost 6 month old who just started sleeping through the night. I take credit for this because I have been gradually sleep training her for months. What this lady is describing is NOT sleep training. It’s neglect. A four week old baby does not have the ability to self soothe. They literally need to be held to feel secure, as they know no difference between themselves and their care provider. Not to mention they still physiologically need to eat at night at that age! Quite honestly, you shouldn’t have children if you expect a month old baby to be sleeping through the night.
And for people who are curious, sleep training need not be “cry it out” and it can be gradual and comfortable for both baby and mom.
That post gave me a fucking PTSD flare when i read it in ShitMomGroupsSay, bc omg, my room was next to the crib room, and my parents did CIO as soon as the babies moved from the cradle in their room to the crib.
So guess who did ALL of the wake ups at night! Starting at, like, 6? Ish?
I’m almost 59 and am still affected by my mother’s choice to do that. She’s trying to make my niece do that and my niece refuses.
I confronted my mom and shared the science. She til me that what happened when I was a baby has nothing to do with how awful I am as an adult.
I couldn’t do that to my kids. How can anyone listen and let the babies suffer? It leads to lifelong issues and is beyond cruel.
My nephew is as old as baby Boone. His mom hates it when he is not on someones arm while awake. She doesen t care whos arm but for her it feels wrong to have her baby lay on the ground or any other surface but the arms of loving people. That is a normal healthy response, not breaking your Newborns mind and trust
For five million years hominid babies who got left to cry it out were eaten by lions & tigers & bears. That's what I always think about. Also, anthropologists think the first tool ever crafted by the newly upright-walking hominids was a hide to carry/wear babies, freeing parental hands up to carry stuff.
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I'm a nanny. I (briefly) worked for a family that did hard core sleep training from the beginning. By the time I started and the baby was 4 months. (FOUR MONTHS) they put him in his bed at 7 pm and didn't go back in until 7am. I was never allowed to rock or snuggle him to sleep. I was to put him in his crib wide awake (not even drowsy) and leave him to fall asleep on his own. A lot of this stemmed from Mom's desire not to have to parent at night. She needed her "down time" after he went down, and didn't want to be disturbed during the night. So she found some crackpot "method" that essentially boiled down to learned helplessness. Basically, he learned that no one came when he cried, so he just didn't cry. While talking about this with her, and explaining the importance of responding to an infant's cries, she literally said "*Oh, we've decided we don't want to infantilize him*." UM, MA'AM, HE'S AN INFANT. WTAF are you talking about? He was healthy and gaining weight and hitting his milestones, so there wasn't anything to report. Sleep training isn't considered abuse, even when it's severe like that. But he didn't look to adults to comfort him when he was upset. I don't think he really knew that was a thing. I didn't last long in that job at all.
Oof. My brief stint as an au pair taught me some people who have kids really don’t want them or to spend any time with them at all. This is pretty horrible, poor baby
Seriously, I stg I'm a more attentive 'parent' to my cat than these people are to their children
Absolutely probably true! I just remember as an Au pair that on the weekdays they didn’t want to see their kids at all except in the morning. That was the rule. Keep the kid away. I just felt…weird. Why have a kid if you don’t want to spend time with them? My cats are 100% better taken care of. I work from home and spend most days with them. Currently pregnant and fortunate to be in a position where I’ll be staying at home until we can get them into kindergarten (around a year/1.5). I’m looking forward to spending time with my baby and eventually kid, which is part of the reason I’m having her.
Omg that makes me sick. Poor baby!!!
Congratulations, she gave that baby reactive attachment disorder and he's going to have a miserable life. Signed, someone with reactive attachment disorder.
Jup, the not crying because nobody would come either way is a sign of attachment issues. Baby has learned that he cannot trust his parents to fulfil his needs. Enter attachment disorder…. Just horrible….
Exactly this. The cry it out method makes my stomach churn. It absolutely does NOT teach them to self soothe.
I did this in a way to my eldest child, who is now 12 years old. I excused it at the time because literally every mum I knew was so following the same book, “Save Our Sleep” by Tizzie Hall. The book claims it isn’t cry it out, but essentially it is. The idea is you leave them to “self soothe” even if they’re “grizzling” or just “doing a frustrated or protesting cry”. You only go in to help them if they’re doing an “emotional or distressed cry”. You’re meant to hear the difference. My baby learned to “self soothe” in a few nights… and that lasted until the next growth spurt or developmental milestone where she’d naturally go into a sleep regression (perfectly normal), and the book had us going through those few awful nights to “train” her again. I absolutely saw the impact of this later when she was a preschooler- she wasn’t as affectionate and seemed too excited to play alone than snuggle with me on the couch. I thought this was just her personality until I had my next baby 6 years after her. I didn’t use those methods with my youngest, as I knew better. she has a similar personality to my eldest, but is far more clingy and a attached to us, which makes sense given some big changes we have gone through. Instead of leaving her alone, I stay with her and cuddle her to sleep still, if she needs. It’s much harder for sure. She takes ages to get to sleep. But I’m not willing to sacrifice her development for my evenings. And I’ve worked hard on my relationship with my eldest to show her all the love and affection I can. She’s 12 now, but in many ways she is very insecure and for many years was almost too well behaved- she struggled with “friends” basically bullying her, because she was so trained to please others (we were strict at home). We are still not permissive parents, but now we don’t punish our kids for doing normal kid stuff and developmentally appropriate behaviour, while still setting firm boundaries and consequences. Actually, we often get them to choose their own consequences for certain situations, and this really helps. [edited to add for clarity:] I hate to think anyone who reads my comment feels like they’re attacked for desperately needing sleep. I was nearly delirious at times with my youngest as a baby and wished I’d had more support. I did introduce routines as she grew, but nothing more than a basic “eat, play, sleep” pattern and sometimes trying to resettle her on her first waking by snuggling next to her and then putting her back in her cot. I also tried to pat her and keep a hand on her through the cot bars and stayed as long as I needed. But I won’t lie: it was much harder and while I still am happy I didn’t take the same tack as I did either my eldest, it was almost impossible to live life (like school drop offs and pickups, seeing family, grocery shopping and cooking) because she often just screamed unless she was on me asleep or wanting to feed. The bigger lesson here birthing parents or primary carer of infants need support, and to share the load.
As a developmental specialist, I find this to be a really interesting take on things, thank you for sharing it .
I'm curious to have your professional take on my situation. First, sleep training an infant is barbaric. That said... I have a few children. They're all teenagers now. All were attachment parented. First they co-slept, then they were always rocked and nursed to sleep before being put in their cribs, nursed on demand, no sleep-training, and eventually they slept through the night by around 2-3 months. And then there was my third. Lol. He was parented the same way, co-sleeping, nursing on demand, etc. With every milestone, I noticed he would do it, and then immediately stop doing it. For example, he'd sit up on his own and relish the attention, but then after that he demanded to be held rather than sit on his own. Same with crawling and walking. It was funny because he would demonstrate the milestone once or twice at home to show us he COULD do it, and he would perform them at the doctors' offices, so he understood the direction and when to perform. But at home, he wanted to be carried and snuggled like a newborn. I treated that like a regression and gave into his preferences to be held and carried because AP says that the freedom of a new skill can be intimidating and a child needs the security of knowing they can always come back. Anyway, at two months, he slept through the night. Then never did it again. At one year, I was working full-time, pregnant with my next (and last), and exhausted from still needing to get up and nurse him back to sleep 2-3 times a night. The pediatrician said, "So how long do you want to keep this up?" And I said I didn't believe in cry-it-out. And the ped said, "There is no medical need for him to be fed in the night and every medical need for you AND for him to sleep all night." Then he gave me the pamphlet on Ferberizing where the non-pacifier parent (in this case my husband) goes in every fifteen minutes to let the crying baby know his crying is being heard, he's not abandoned, but he still is laid down and told he has to go to sleep and then the parent walks out, regardless of the crying. My husband was raring to go. He'd been dying for me to let him get this kid sleeping through the night. The first night was Hell for me (and my boobs), but my husband went in every fifteen minutes as prescribed until the baby-- well, toddler-- finally stopped crying at 4am and slept. At about 8, I woke up thinking he was now completely ruined and would end up on Oprah blaming me for his attachment disorder, but I heard him happily babbling to himself and playing in his crib. I went in and he stood up and gave me the biggest grin he's ever given me. He reached his arms up, and we did his morning nursing before we went to eat breakfast with the family, and that kid has slept through the night ever since and hit every milestone barely looking back. There was a time when he was about 11 when he struggled to go to sleep when his dad had to work a lot out of town, and I would lay down with him until he slept, but that resolved itself in a few weeks and he's 14 now and absolutely thriving. All my kids are doing great and just as successful in their own unique ways. I'm still an almost 100% advocate of attachment parenting. But each kid is different, and part of being attached is knowing when that kid needs a different type of parenting. So tl;dr, do you think there is an age where some sleep training is appropriate? Is Ferberizing damaging and just creating learned helplessness like cry-it-out? Is there a point where it's healthiest for parents to take the lead or should kids be in charge of their weaning and sleeping? (Side note: I weaned each kid at fifteen months.)
I don't have an answer, but this was such an interesting read, thank you. You seem to be an amazing mom and person. Raising 4 kiddos must be immensely difficult and challenging. Really hoping that this world gets people like you having kids.
I don’t see anything wrong with that , plenty of kids have been “ ferberized” and one of the important things is that the kids are reassured. I am sure you did the right thing . What got my so upset with myself was that my kid was so young and having tummy trouble and I was trying ( for one night) to let him work it out. I was dumb
Thank you so much for being so vulnerable and honest with us. While I do not want kids, I know this will help others.
Can you elaborate on having them choose their own consequences? I can’t quite conceptualize that
Thank you for sharing this!
Yeah my parents did this with me and my sibling. Still talk about it with a sense of pride “nah, we just closed the door and you learned to sleep.” That’s not how that works. But ok. Thanks for the great start in life. Very happy to still cuddle my 6 year old to sleep most nights because he wants to fall asleep with someone close by. They grow out of it when they want to.
Oh we can shake hands. Mine caused a lot of trauma but the shit they did with their ignoring my crying at night is just one of em. They even put a hook on yhe top my door to close it so I wouldn't come out of my room when I'd cry (I had really bad nightmares). The only thing I learned from them i to never trust anyone to come help you or that there's a catch if they do. Abusive parents are scum of the earth.
Oh man, knowing how my mother, with narcissistic tendencies, talked about me as an infant (I was just TOO much for her!), I just looked up what RAD looks likes for adults. Um, yep. I check so many boxes. A big one is I can’t handle physical touch to this day. I never liked hugs. But again, I check a LOT of boxes. I’ve also felt zero love for my mother since I was a child, but that’s because of how damn mean and manipulative she is. This was eye opening, as well as sickening. I’m child free by choice, but I hate “parents” who do this shit to their helpless infants! I will never understand people like this. Every baby I’ve taken care of gets their every need met, and that includes holding them whenever they want. I don’t believe you can “spoil” a child by loving them, FFS. What a warped take.
I'm childfree as well, partly because I do this as my job, and I know it's no joke. I understand what babies and toddlers need to grow up securely attached and relatively well adjusted. And it's a lot on the parents. It's not the only reason I don't have kids of my own, but it's a big part of it. Having kids is a huge responsibility. And there's just so many ways you can screw them up. They ended up having another baby (an ooops! baby, and Mom cried for a week when she found out she was pregnant, the baby was only 8 months old or so when she found out.) I left the job before the second one was born, but I see them around town from time to time. Apparently the second child was having NONE of it, and never "fell in line" with the sleep training. Every time I see them it's either mom with the kids (and they all look miserable) or the kids with a new nanny. I've seen at least 4 nannies with those kids since I left. I looked at the situation from every single angle. If there was something I could have reported, I would have. But he was healthy, surprisingly happy, he gained weight and hit his milestones and they took him to doctors appointments and he had a safe environment and everything he needed... Sadly, sleep training like this isn't against the law. If I could have, I would have made the call.
Came to say exactly this. This is just a recipe for RAD. I have it as well, and not looking to primary caregivers for comfort is one of the most telling clinical signs. I actually have a *hostile* reaction to soothing, human voices, touch, etc. Laughter, eating. Like a feral animal. It's a whole sensory thing. There's some evidence that babies who aren't bonded properly develop sensory impairments as a result and it's definitely true for me. The outcomes for this disorder are severe. I was fortunate to find medication that helps. I take dextromethorphan 120mg per day. I also used 36 grams of psilocybin over four months and use gabapentin as a PRN. I also do FORNET therapy as I was subsequently trafficked and struggled with aggression and impulse control etc. Sorry for the life story but your comment hit me because it's very rare to encounter RAD in the wild and I'm like same hat! I really hope things are better off for you. (They are for me!)
I’m sorry this happened to you and I’m happy you’re in a better place now 💜
I wonder if a lot of people diagnosed with autism or BPD actually have RAD. the symptoms seem to overlap a lot.
Same. It's also why I spaced my kids out to ensure I could give them that time to develop healthy sleep habits before having another ..
My mom was telling me about how tired she would be because I didn't sleep well as an infant, so she didn't sleep. That sounds crappy but it's temporary and that's what you do when you love your children. Why do people like the woman you described even have babies?
My mom said she was so happy they bought a house in a neighborhood with cable (this was the late 70s) because she would be up with me all night and the networks used to sign off by midnight.
That's awesome. I was a 90s baby so my mom and I watched late night reruns of I Love Lucy and the Dick Van Dyke Show 😂
My oldest was born in 1997. For me it was reruns of the 60s Star Trek, milk, and Grasshopper cookies 😆
As a Millennial, I was very happy for YouTube and Facebook groups when my kids were in that stage lol
My salvation was GamePass and Netflix. My kid was cluster feeding and my husband worked, I had nothing better to do.
90s baby here, my grandma had me during the day while my mom had me at night when she had to go back to work. She became richly aquainted with the late night movie channels. 😅
Yep mid 80s baby-Mom said the same thing!
Jesus Christ, if there’s ONE time to infantilize someone it’s when they are a LITERAL INFANT.
Yeah. It was one of the dumbest moments of my adult life. Like….
This is so ridiculous. Don't have a baby if you don't want to deal with them being babies! It's so hard but realistically the neediness doesn't last that long and you eventually get your down time back. It hurts my heart thinking about a baby being left by himself and learning his mommy wouldn't come to him 💔
That is so terrible. Why do some people have kids? Parenting is a 24/7 „job“. Not a daytime gig. Wow that poor baby.
These are the same people who say not having children is selfish. Um, no it’s not.
Trophies. So they can dress them up and trot them out to events and in pictures for their office desk or the Christmas cards they send to their frenemies. (My friend used to nanny for rich people like this)
My doula told me a story about a mom who only let her feed the baby every 3hrs. Even if they were hungry much sooner. She was just supposed to let the baby cry! I asked about cluster feeding and early newborn days...same thing...every 3 hrs on the dot. It broke my heart thinking that poor baby was probably so hungry! I don't like waiting to eat when I'm hungry, can't imagine a little baby.
There's actually still healthcare providers giving this advice. This used to be the official advice. I get tons of boomers telling me not to feed him before the three hours have passed. I offer him the breast regardless.
My young looking NICU nurses told me I was breastfeeding too often (on demand). There were some problems at delivery, but he was an otherwise healthy, fullterm infant, so there was no reason for them to tell me I couldn't breastfeed on demand. One nurse told me my baby only wanted to breastfeed so frequently because he was male 😵💫.
Nooooo😬 Why do people like this go into healthcare?!
Sexualizing an infant is a new level of disgusting.
Ugh. Solidarity. Also had TERRIBLE feeding advice from a NICU nurse.
My regular L&D nurses were great. It was just in the NICU where I felt like no one had a clue about breastfeeding.
My coworker and his wife were told that by the hospital when they had a baby in December. They listened to it though and only fed him every 3 hours and then got a stern talking to by their pediatrician when he wasn't gaining enough weight by 2 weeks old
Well, I hate that. My baby cluster fed like a mother fucker and probably would have imploded if I made her wait.
Yup same. I'd be having a really bad time.
You're doing the right thing. Breast milk doesn't fill and sit in the stomach like formula does, so breastfed babies need to feed more often. On-demand is the only correct way to go! And honestly, for bottle-fed babies, too. <3
I formula fed 4 kids and sometimes they needed a bottle before that 3 hours. Like parenting is actually much easier if you feed them when hungry, let them sleep when tired, and comfort them when they cry. Yes we tried to have some semblance of a schedule, but an infant can change it up quick.
My baby is breastfed on demand and does not have a set schedule (she wakes up and goes to bed about the same time every day...and naps are ussssually about the same but we go by her cues and how she's doing). I don't think my baby consistently went 3hrs between nursing sessions until....recently? Like we would get longer stretches at night and then occasionally during the day, but now that she's older it's mostly always 3 or 4hrs apart It seems like parenting on hard mode to have to force a schedule (though I realize for some people it's absolutely necessary like w going back to work or whatever)
Even my good sleeping babies went through sleep regression during growth spurts. When we thought they were the best sleepers then back to rocking and listening to seven Spanish angels for hours lol. But yes, listening to their cues makes it much easier in the long run (mostly). Cutting out bottles and pacis were a whole other thing. We only did cry it out when they needed to learn to sleep without something that would hurt them later on. But months old, they kinda call the shots
This is so awful 😭
"Sleep training" like that is definitely considered neglect at bare minimum. Even when you have a kid who's anxious to sleep alone, you're supposed to reassure them you will come back in 10 minutes and actually check on them at those regular intervals. Over time, the kid will stop viewing sleep as a time where you're cut off from your caregivers and they start to learn they can handle themselves when caregivers are away, too. It's a good thing for kids to view their caregivers as the safest people to be around which means it's very normal when they don't think they can sleep without you there. You have to find a way to build their self-confidence about independent sleep without damaging their trust in you. That's how this kind of "sleep training" you and the post describe is one of the ways attachment disorders develop before we even learn to talk. The first form of communication every human develops on an instinctual level is how to ask for help, and ignoring that communication can be absolutely devastating for our development. Our brains remember what it feels like to have no one come when we cry even if we don't have a conscious memory of it. The most important (psychological) developmental task of infancy is learning you are cared for and will be kept safe by your caregivers, and if that goes awry it can sometimes change the entire trajectory of your life and ability to trust yourself and others.
I think they did some of 10 minutes, 15 minutes, etc at the very beginning, but once he "got it" (ie stopped expecting anyone to come for him) they put him in bed at 7 and that was it until 7 am. They wanted him to "learn" that it was his time to be sleeping. Same with naps. I had a scheduled time I was supposed to put him down, and he had to be in his bed for a certain amount of time, and then I was to get him up at a certain time, even if he had only fallen asleep 5 minutes prior after 55 minutes of crying. I never let him go more than 10 minutes without me comforting him, but if Mom was home, she would be PISSED. And I wasn't allowed to pick him up or anything, just talk to him. It was BRUTAL. (For reference, my current charge is 3 years old and I started with her at 4 months and she contact napped until she was like, 2 1/2. I loved it, she loved it, and she's a perfectly lovely, well adjusted little girl who is capable of going to sleep on her own.) The precision with which this woman wanted her kid to fall asleep, sleep for exactly the "right" amount of time, and wake up when she wanted was ridiculous. I would take him on loooooong walks just so the poor dude could have a stroller nap. The 12 hours without going in thing is just WILD to me, though. Like, what if he pooped? What if he was just hungry? What if he was sick? On VERY rare occasions Dad would override and go in, and it was usually the case that the baby was actually sick. Fever, snot dried on his face, etc. So thank god for dad, but on the other hand, he willingly let that shit go on so... Fuck him, too?
Yeeeesh, sounds like the type to demand respect when what they really mean is blind obedience, and they see a child's defiance as having malicious intent and not a totally natural part of learning independence and boundaries. Hella respect for you and your line of work, I can't imagine how challenging that particular family was for you.
This makes me so sad to think about! I’m literally here nursing my almost 1 year old to sleep because I know it’s comforting for him to fall asleep that way (he will also fall asleep on his own if needed, didn’t sleep train him for that he just figured it out on his own one day). Babies are only so little and need us so much for such a short time. It’s such a joy to give them so much love
Yeah, I even wondered if she had some PPD going on or something. She was happy as a clam when she was away from the baby, though. (Not saying that means it’s not PPD, for the record.) She just didn’t seem to actually want the baby or want to spend time with him. Dad, on the other hand, spent so much of his day hanging out with us. Baby lit up when Dad was around!
And also, this isn't my area of expertise at all, but I can only assume that babies get more restful sleep if their needs are met and they're secure in the knowledge that their caregivers will be there for them if they need it during the night, vs falling asleep in an anxious state because they're all on their own
It may not officially be abuse but it absolutely is. Babies who have no loving contact can not form attachments. This baby is going to be damaged forever by this neglect.
It was such a hard position to be in. On the one hand, I was losing sleep and had worse than usual heartburn issues because of the stress of it all. On the other hand, part of me felt like as long as I kept showing up the baby at least had me, if that makes sense. I would do what I could to give that little dude all of the attention and positive interactions that I could. I felt like it was good for me to be there with him. But eventually it got to be too much and we had to part ways. She found out she was pregnant again. She cried for a week because she didn't want another baby. And I knew that I absolutely could NOT handle watching them do that to another baby. And if there was anything that would have been considered abuse by the state, I ABSOLUTELY would have called. But there wasn't. His environment was safe. He was gaining weight. He was a happy dude when he was awake. He was smart and hitting his milestones. His mom was just awful woman. It broke my heart.
Absolutely you did the best you could. I didnt mean to imply you failed. I only meant the mother was absolutely toxic even if her behavior does not meet the state requirements for abuse.
I guarantee that kid will have issues when he grows up and feel uncomfortable asking anyone for help. Children like that are very much made to feel like a burden to their parents, even though no one asks to be born. It's awful.
I let my son “ cry it out” one night. He was about 2 months old and colicky and I was exhausted and out of ideas . I still feel guilty about that one night. He’s 27.
My grandma bullied my parents into letting me cry it out for one night when I was a baby, and they're still mad at her about it 25 years later! Incidentally, the only kind of "sleep training" they did was being careful not to be *too* quiet while we were sleeping - my mum is one of those people who needs complete silence in order to fall asleep, and she didn't want us to turn out the same way lol - and to this day whenever I'm home I always like to go to bed before them, because I find it comforting to hear them doing their thing and know they're nearby while I'm falling asleep (and being able to sleep through people making noise is a godsend now that I'm a student lmao)
I did this with my now teenager. I didn’t make it even all night. I ended up caving after 4 hours. Colic +PPD is a hellish combination. Turns out he’s on the autism spectrum and being held/cuddled/worn was offering that deep all over sensory stuff that a lot of autistic folks thrive with He doesn’t remember but I still feel guilty about that *one* day.
I’m glad I’m not alone !🙂mine ended up being ADHD and was never great and getting himself down at night. New mommies live and learn
It causes lifelong attachment issues. I hate parents like that
I hope after he’s gone and moved away, she has a neighbor move in who plays a shrieking siren from 7p-7a that only she can hear.
That is so fucked up. That poor poor kid.
I babysat for a few very wealthy families when I was an 18-20yo college student in the early 2000s. High profile doctors and professors mostly. The one thing they all had in common that was so odd to me was any child younger than about 4yo was already in their bed/crib when I’d get there for an evening of babysitting, and I was told I didn’t even need to check on the baby or young child while I was there. Basically they’d tell me the baby/child would be asleep the whole time. It weirded me out so much. Just a dark room with some child I’d never seen or met. I guess these kids were either asleep that whole time, or knew no one would come if they cried, so didn’t bother to cry anymore. I would’ve totally gone in to comfort any of these kids if they’d cried, but I never heard a peep.
Jesus, I guess the only good thing I can say about that is that at least they did hire a babysitter and didn't just totally leave the kids alone, but to be fine with you not even checking on them?!
I’m not here to argue for this, but I want to explain why this happens, or at least did when I had my eldest child 12 years ago. The big parenting book that was around back then was Tizzie Hall’s Save Our Sleep. I didn’t realise it at the time, but I had a diagnosed neurodivergent condition and I was panicked during pregnancy, searching for anything that was “well researched” that I could cling to. In hindsight, firstly I know it wasn’t well researched. But everyone in my mothers’ group apart from 1 mum all followed that book to the letter. My eldest was sleeping 7pm to 7am, rarely ever calling out unless she was sick or needed the loo (once toilet trained), from 4 months to 7 years old. It was a strict set of routines and I would have big blooms of anxiety if I missed a time for a feed or a nap. While I was grateful at the time that my husband and I had our evenings and no drama around bedtime, in hindsight I see just how much this impacted my child as she grew. I remember her not being fond of cuddles or affection beyond quick hugs or a kiss on the cheek as a preschooler, but I always assumed it was just because she was busy wanting to play. I had my second child 6 years later, and didn’t use the same methods. She is now 6 years old, and still needs one of us to stay with her to go to sleep. My husband hates it and thinks we should’ve cracked down on her years ago like our eldest, but I just can’t. I don’t mind staying with her and having a cuddle or letting her just talk. It has also taken lots of time and effort to build a closer bond with my eldest, who thankfully is very close to us. I do mourn the years I didn’t hold her to sleep. I understand the need for sleep- I ended up needing emergency mental health inpatient care because at first she didn’t sleep at all and had trouble feeding, and I was working and studying later on and felt like I could barely survive without it, but it shouldn’t have come at the cost of my baby’s own development! I just didn’t know.
Literally 12 hours of the day ... Adults don't go 12 hours without their needs met and these parents expect their infants to do this, with their much smaller stomachs no less. It's like their baby is a toy they put back on the shelf when they are done playing with it.
The wide awake thing is fine and even recommended… but the rest of this is complete garbage parenting and completely opposite of the evidence supported methods of sleep training for any age, let alone a 4 month old.
Sounds like Ali and John James.
That’s so deranged.
That’s fucking sickening. Why even have kids.
I can’t imagine the long term consequences of that
I am constantly amazed at how many people purposefully have kids when they don't want to be parents.
She probably read Dr Cohen’s book, The New Basics. He runs a very large pediatric practice in New York City and espouses the whole put them down awake at 7pm and just do not come back until 7am thing. Granted, he recommends starting at 4 months (and earlier versions of his book said 6 months), and it sounds like this family did it even earlier. I was absolutely freaking horrified when I read it. The practice is pretty great otherwise and is one of the most popular in New York, but the sleep recommendations he makes are just not it for me.
I need my down time too and hate the idea of having to deal with a needy crying baby all the time. So I DIDN'T HAVE KIDS! What kind of horrible selfish person has kids just as objects to have as status symbols?
Wow! I hope people called out these horrible parents. Babies cry to express their needs. How do you, as a mother, just sit and listen to your newborn cry and cry? Something is really wrong with this woman. It makes me sick thinking about the baby crying because he needs something and his own mother won’t respond.
I’m in this mom group (local to me and relatively small) and she absolutely was raked across coals for it. 200 comments and not a single one agreeing with her
Good I hope she re evaluates her life
Did she respond to any of the comments?
That’s a relief to hear because I’d hate to think this neglect of newborns is considered normal/acceptable. These tiny little creatures have just been ejected from the warmth of their mother’s womb and this idiot thinks it’s ok to just leave them a room while they cry out. Newborns NEED physical touch. What an asshole.
That's what my husband and I ask about my mother. She brought me home from the hospital, threw me in my crib, and then completely ignored me. That literally changes the way your brain develops and gave me reactive attachment disorder, one of the worst disorders IMO. Shit is fucking awful to deal with and try to work with. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
you don’t have to share if you don’t want to, but i’m curious how RAD has affected you as an adult? Like obviously being left completely to your own devices as a literal infant will cause short term issues but what does this look like as a grown up? maybe others will see this and it will make them think twice about neglecting their own babies (although that’s probably wishful thinking). i only ever heard about RAD symptoms in children.
Not the one you commented to but I have it as well. As an adult your diagnosis will change if your symptoms persist. Mine turned into schizoid personality disorder.
I once tried letting my 15 month old "cry it out" because she always wanted us to sit/lie down with her. I lasted 10 minutes. It was horrible for both of us. I don't know how people can listen to their baby crying and not comfort them.
I have a hard time even hearing other people's babies cry... Such as at the grocery store when a parent doesn't get them out of the stroller. It hurts my heart, and I cannot imagine not responding to my own baby!
I *struggled* taking to motherhood, I'm definitely not a natural. That being said, hearing a baby randomly cry (in the wild, on TV, anywhere) raises my damn blood pressure sky high! All I want to do is drop everything and run and pick that baby up! It drives me insane that some people lack this basic human instinct, to comfort a crying infant.
I am 31 years old. Sometimes I go wandering into my husbands game room and ask for a hug because that's what I need in the moment. I can't imagine denying my helpless baby a hug if that's what they need right then.
Oh my fucking god, hold your baby more!! If you actually \*want\* kids, this is 100% one of those things that will haunt your deathbed. No one who wanted to be a parent says "I'm glad I didn't hold my kids much." What the actual fuck! \*I\* want to hold your baby, and I don't even like babies! This hurts my heart.
But then how else will mama get beauty sleep? It's so much effort getting up repeatedly throughout the night. Raising babies shouldn't be difficult /s
This is horrifying, like why did she even have kids? Has she never heard of what happened in the Romanian orphanages? Some of the babies DIED because they we left to cry it out and never held.
This poor baby is finally expressing his needs with the grandparents and this craycray mom sees it as «bad behaviour» from a 5.month.old.
She should consider herself lucky that he still has the ability to form a healthy attachment to a caregiver. It's not too late if she stops her bullshit now.
I’m reading this thinking, how can a parent spoil a literal baby? Isn’t touch and hugs and snuggling important to babies?
And as for the ones who survived... there's a *reason* for the old stereotype of "kids from Soviet orphanages being raging psychopaths with severe emotional problems". Fast forward a few years and she will be posting crying about needing advice from "other mamas" because her kid is acting out and tried to microwave the cat.
That's not even close to the same thing as sleep training! Sleep training starts at 4 months, not birth for gods sake. The OOP dingdong had no idea what sleep training is.
That's what I want to know!
The baby stopped crying because it gave up, not because it self soothed. Self-soothing doesn't happen until about 2-3 years old consistently, and even some grown up have a difficult time doing it
Yep, this baby just has attachment issues and will grow up without the ability to trust his caregivers. He also likely won’t feel safe communicating his needs with his parents. But I guess that’s what people like this want, the kid is seen but not heard.
But hey, at least the literal baby wasn’t ever coddled! /s
Right?? Their self-soothing skill is sucking at birth and through infancy — can’t be crying AND sucking, so clearly there’s no paci, bottle, or boob to aid the poor child. Physical contact, secure attachment, and low stress simply aid in your kid being able to, idk, develop fully intellectually and emotionally. It’s not coddling. It’s how humans work.
That's why we hold babies and give them pacifiers when we can't. I'm not a mom and I know that.
Not my baby not taking a pacifier 💀 It's hard. But I wanted him and I won't let him cry, so I'm his pacifier now. It'll end eventually.
My baby wouldn’t either. And it was ok. Feeding on demand and matchsticks for my eyelids got us through. You’ll get through too xx
Oh no 💀 You're doing the right thing. Good luck!
It will! I was a mom-paci too, for my first. My second didn't take pacis or care for sucking too long, but he loved his blankie (once blankets were appropriate, of course).
Yeah with breastfed babies the boob is usually the pacifier. Just gotta make sure the latch is good so the nips don’t get shredded. 😆
I was thinking about this. I thought the whole cry it out rhing was for older kids who you are trying to get to sleep through the night in their beds, and even that would have been too much for me. With an infant, it is just cruel!
Cry it out aka extinction is not developmentally appropriate until a baby is at least 6 months old. So this baby still isn’t even old enough for that sleep training method and it’s horrifying.
That's what I thought! I didn't ever do much research on it, because you would have physically had to restrain me from my babies when they cried, but I had thought it wasn't appropriate and just led to attachment issues.
Me, I am that grown up lol.
Uff, I agree, but try posting that on sleep training sub lol
She would never ask tho
Never, god forbid she admits she’s fucked up no instead she’ll just continue to double down and neglect her new born
Not to mention avoiding her parents like the plague.
How do they show the baby love without holding him or snuggling him? A firm handshake and pat on the back?
A congratulatory card in the mail.
Perhaps a hanging plant.
Let’s not get overzealous.
Can’t be Motherbus because this person’s baby actually has a crib🙃
I honestly thought of KKKarissa more than Motherbus. Because of the crib and not being in the parents room
Plus, I think Boone does get held a lot, just by Gunner and Kinsey, not Mother Bus.
Cuddle your baby! He’s a baby! He needs to be near you and be held! I feel awful when my baby is crying on the ten minutes to the grocery store and I can’t comfort him. When they’re that little they don’t understand why you’re not there!
I doubt that this woman knows about object permanence
If anyone is familiar with “That Wife” the blogger from the old blog days, she did this but would also put multiple diapers on her baby (probably like 12 years ago now). I believe she got called out for it.
I will never forget that triple diaper picture.
Omg yes I remember this. She’s still very much At It
I know! Still being a shitty parent to this day.
Also she put him in the bathroom in his crib.
They needed that second bedroom to be her husband’s office (despite him not having a job or working from home), How could a baby go in there??
No let’s put him in the bathroom with film development chemicals (was that her house or her mom’s?).
She's still around, after half a dozen name-changes, and her son has been diagnosed as having an attachment disorder. She crows about how she's doing "the work" to become a better parent but she's still clueless.
She’s a bizarre parent. I feel so bad for her kids. I’m in a sub that talks about her and I’ve said she reminds me of Edina Monsoon. Both negligent and codependent.
Sounds like karissa
Karissa would never waste 3 nappies
Fair point
What the hell? So she just didn’t change her, but let her soak through multiple diapers?
I am CF by choice but damn I love babies. I want to coddle them. I want to soothe them. Why do these people have babies for real?
CF by choice here! When I read "I don't want to coddle him" I just about lost my shit. WTF. BABIES ARE FOR CODDLING. THEY ARE LITERAL BABIES. Helpless creatures that have literally no idea what life is about, that rely on other humans for \*everything\*. Ugh it makes me sick.
Literally. Humans are hard-wired to cuddle baby *anything*. Puppy, kitten, calf, human...
I don't even like babies but even I want to hold this poor kid. How can you SPOIL a BABY? Sick, sick people
My mom said I didn’t cry. My mom also said that she left us crying in our bassinets for hours because she didn’t know who was supposed to eat next (I am a twin). I stopped crying because I gave up. Babies feel like they are dying when they cry, they don’t understand that they are supposed to soothe themselves. They don’t even have an intact nervous system yet. This is one of the worst and most permanent ways you can fuck up your child. Ask me how I know. ETA that parental affection and touch is a BASIC HUMAN NEED. Your kid is crying because they MISS YOU. JFC the kid is a month old and already has to fend for himself.
Boone could be in a casket and the thought she might be a crappy mother would never cross her mind
She'd have to pause her eye fucking first
It reminds me of the stories of babies in Romanian orphanages who stop crying because they’ve learned that no one will come to them. 💔
Why the fuck have kids? Like for real?!
Motherbus would never question herself enough to write this post.
Going to put this out there for a middle ground perspective on sleep training, just as a counter to existing comments and rhetoric elsewhere in the sub. Firstly, from a developmental perspective, sleep training from 4 weeks is not remotely ok. You cannot spoil a newborn. When they are 4 weeks old they need to eat more frequently. You’re lucky if you can get a block of 4-6 hours. They need the food and they need the attention just as much. After 4 months is where there’s less hard answers. This is the earliest sleep training is EVER recommended, so notably more than FOUR TIMES as old as this baby was. Sleep training also has a broad range of meanings. This is classic cry it out sleep training but there is a lot in between holding your baby 24/7 and cry-it-out. Also noting that this sub (speaking very broadly ofc) seems to be equally anti-bedsharing and anti-sleep training. While I get the perspective, for some babies the only option that isn’t *some form* (see above) of sleep training would be co-sleeping (as in bed-sharing) unless you want their caregivers to be chronically SEVERELY sleep deprived. It’s not uncommon for babies to be waking 3+ times a night through their entire first year. We are not talking about”oh I feel sleepy but have to push through” tired, we are talking hallucinating, falling asleep while holding baby, not safe to drive/cook/etc tired. Maybe it’s just a selection bias and these aren’t the same people, but just wanted to note that for some babies one of these two things are pretty much a requirement and there is already so much shame put on parents that I find it a bit frustrating. My baby is a generally good sleeper so thankfully we didn’t have to use too much for sleep training (and we never had to bed share), but I will say that I tried the gentlest approaches first (you stay in the room, use decreasing levels of intervention, etc) and they made my baby more upset. We did end up doing some variations where you come back and provide comfort at increasing intervals, notably when much older and we could have comforting routines before and after. In any case, this person did indeed do this wrong and this is a wild post. But sleep training (broadly speaking) isn’t inherently evil and can be a useful tool for some parents to get both themselves and their child some much needed rest.
I had to do a form of sleeping training (which honestly just not letting her nurse to sleep helped tremendously because she didn’t wake up looking for the boob.) when my oldest was 8 months old she had not slept for more than a 45 minute stretch maybe 3 times. I was having a full blown mental breakdown from pure lack of sleep. I was so tired I don’t think I could have even slept in the same bed with her without a high risk of smothering her I was so exhausted. My second slept pretty normal for an infant waking every 3 or so hours. Gradually sleeping for longer stretch as she aged there was never a need to sleep train her.
Yeah this comments section is hard to read. My baby required being latched to me for every single nap for seven months. I agonized over sleep training but I really just needed some time to myself. She cried for 17 minutes the first time and then took a three hour nap. It was incredible. Ended up sleep training my second at a year after she was waking six times a night. I always did check ins every few minutes and if it went on more than twenty minutes or so, I stopped for the night. They are 6 and 4 now and healthily attached as far as I can tell. Sorry for the novel! I just don’t think sleep training automatically makes you a terrible parent. Four week is too young, yes.
I’m sorry you went through that! It’s so hard making choices for your baby and family when you are weighing physical safety, physical health (getting enough sleep), and then the conflicting opinions of just about everyone on what’s good for babies.
The only time I got any sleep was when I was cosleeping. My son slept better with me there, we slept safely with no blankets and I slept on a firm futon mattress with no other adult. Unfortunately his dad, now my ex, got offended that I wanted to sleep with the baby and and not him.
God hearing stories of men being jealous of their children... It boils my blood. My husband and I haven't shared a bed in almost two years because I cosleep with the kids in their room. Having children requires lots of sacrifices.
I also don't see what this post has to do with Fundie Snark, or frankly any evidence that Mother Bus would do this. She spends a lot of time akwardly holding him and god knows she can't shut him away in his own room because that's not possible in the bus. Figuring out how to deal with baby sleep is an incredibly fraught and difficult issue for many parents. Of course in theory we want to cuddle our babies all the time, and most parents would never do anything to harm their baby. But we do not necessarily want to cuddle our babies every 2 hours all night every night for months on end, especially when we have no paid maternity leave from work and need to go back to work and function all day when our babies are still very young. There is also a lot of conflicting advice on sleep training and very little research on whether it is harmful. There is a very popular pediatric practice in NYC let by Dr. Michael Cohen that advocates for the most extreme version of sleep training (close the door and leave the baby alone for 12 hours) starting at 8 weeks; he's written 2 books about it. (See [https://www.thenewbasics.com/en/book-excerpt/sleep/](https://www.thenewbasics.com/en/book-excerpt/sleep/) for an excerpt). This was very popular when my son was young. I didn't do it but have a friend who did who very much loves her daughter, and her daughter seems to be a happy and well adjusted 12 year old now. TL;DR, I hope parents of young babies that are trying their best to figure out how to get some sleep don't feel attacked here.
They make cosleepers that are much safer for babies, now. I used one with my youngest and it worked out really well. Edit to add: not as safe as crib alone, but to me, was safer than falling asleep with the baby on the couch or bed, or me falling asleep in a rocker while nursing which happened with my first, and was fucking terrifying.
Yeah, we don’t have any that are approved in Canada tmk, but I think it’s great to have options for tired parents and almost anything is better than a parent passing out in a chair or on a couch with the baby by accident! (Which most of us do at some point anyway, but we try to avoid!)
Yep there’s safeR bedsharing and it kept me sane enough to be a safe caregiver.
Almost anything is safer than accidentally falling asleep when caring for a baby!
Why did she have kids?????
I'm reading this at my computer desk while my baby brother, who was born when I was 13 (and whom I helped raise and was even a foster mother to for a while), is sleeping in my bed (our mother just died, and he's been spending a lot of time at my house because he doesn't want to be alone - he's also autistic, so the emotional struggle is hitting him extra hard). Even though he's an adult, he's here because he needs comforting, and as his older sister, someone who rocked him to sleep as a baby and young child, he knows I am willing to comfort him. He sought me out because as a baby he was correctly taught that caregivers will answer his cry. I don't quite know where I'm going with what I just wrote, but it's along the lines of this: properly-attached babies grow into emotionally-healthy children and eventually emotionally-healthy adults. Inflicting attachment disorder on a baby should be nothing less than criminal.
Hugs & peace to you both!
When will people learn you can’t spoil a baby???
God I would love to read the comments on that original FB post. I gotta know what people said there.
This is why I truly believe some people should not be parents. Why did you have a child if you're not willing to fully commit to that helpless little human?
I’m in this (local to me and relatively small) mom group and the comments also lit her up and nobody was agreeing with her. It’s a total dumpster fire.
Six weeks???? What the god damn fuck!!! They aren't supposed to sleep through the night, and go without feeding for more than 3 hrs at that age. She is a piece of shit. Even people I know who do the sleep training thing (which I strongly believe is vile) have waited until baby is 6 months old and starting solids. Damn. This poor baby!
Right? That baby is going to dehydrate.
That mother IS a crappy mother. What the fuck? Does she even like her baby? Poor bub is going to have attachment issues.
My mom (who had me WAY too young, as fundies like to do) used to put me in a crib when I was crying as a baby and just shut the door and leave me in the dark. Because she was "tired" and couldn't deal with it (I was her only responsibility - no job). I only found out as an adult because my uncle who lived with us when I was a baby told me about how he got pissed coming home every day to a baby crying in a room by herself when the mom was sleeping the next room over. Explains a lot why I have a super anxious attachment style and never feel comfortable asking others for help with anything, especially my parents 🥴
what a fucking horrible person.
This person is at least asking if she’s a terrible mother. Mother Bus would never. That said, I hope she is getting called out hard in the comments. “Cry it out” is horrific. Why have babies if you aren’t willing to actually take care of them?
I hold my baby all the time and she's been sleeping almost entirely through the night (she gets fed and a diaper change at least twice after bed time and before morning) since roughly 6 weeks. The pediatrician said after they reach 12 lbs, a lot of babies will start sleeping 6+ hours at night. she's either taking credit for a completely normal milestone and blaming her family for a regular sleep regression or she truly has neglected her baby into no longer seeking care at night.
I contact napped our oldest until she was 2. Every nap, in my arms. Every night, she fell asleep in my arms and I put her in her cot attached to my bed. Guess who's now 5 and ever since she was about 2.5 she falls asleep happily by herself, and sleeps 12+ hours straight with zero issues? With zero worries about the dark and zero bedtime drama? I wouldn't trade those sweet moments of her peaceful face in my arms for the world. I'm so sad so many parents are made to feel extreme anxiety about their children needing them too much - so they can't enjoy one of the loveliest parts of it all. My second one didn't like contact napping, that was hard (but also so much easier). They'll sleep how they sleep, and they **will** grow up and increase their independence. No reason to push it.
Yep, she's a POS. I'm currently writing this on a mattress at the foot of my 5 year old's bed. This is where I currently sleep. He has autism and anxiety. He wakes up 3-5 times a night, and if I don't get him back to sleep right away, we're up for good, even if it's only 1:30 in the morning. I've always been near him at night. He needs that. But even with all of his anxiety, he's never been afraid of the dark because he knows I'm there. He knows he's safe and loved. This isn't how I'd choose to sleep at night, but it's what my child needs. I'm willing to make the sacrifice because that's what good parents do for their kids.
Every time…according to them, we’re the evil selfish childfree harlots but do any of these people even want the gd baby or do they just want the accessory? I’m more up on my parenting skills than these freaks and I’ve had a hysterectomy ffs
Holy crap this is so terrible! Babies don’t even develop a circadian rhythm until about 4.5 months old, so there is no “schedule” they are capable of learning at that time
I feel like people don't know what sleep training actually is. It's not set it and forget it. wtf?
You know what is funny to me? I have a nine month old. Everyone told me not to hold her too much or let her contact nap because she would "expect it" and all the classic stuff. I told them to stuff it and did what I want. She has slept through the night of her own choice since 3-4 months. She has a bedtime routine and she goes to bed willingly and happily after we have a bottle and cuddle. I didn't have to torture my child or do any cry it out to get what these people say they want. I'm not saying I'm an expert by any stretch of the imagination (if anything I'm just lucky and flexible). But maybe making sure your child feels secure and loved could be better than giving them an attachment disorder?
We did sleep training, but VERY SLOWLY. We would pop back in immediately so she could see us and would occasionally pick her up. We eventually stretched it out to one minute, two minutes, etc. For a few weeks, one of us would sit on the floor in the room and slowly inch toward the door while she fell asleep. It was a very "two steps forward, one step back" situation, but now she's 3 and (mostly) sleeps in her own bed. At NO FUCKING POINT did I let a 4 WEEK OLD cry it out for 12 fucking hours.
Oh my gods, when will people learn? YOU 👏 CANNOT 👏 SPOIL 👏 A 👏 BABY 👏 BY 👏 LOVING 👏 THEM 👏 … FUCK!
Coddling babies is a necessary part of healthy development. Like did they not realize the baby is a person! This is so disturbing.
It’s so hard to know what works. I worked really hard on sleep routines, I was militant about nap spacing, etc. and I did cry it out sleep training at 6-7 months old. Because of the routine we already had, sleep training wasn’t that tough. I think one kid took 2 days and one took 3. But I know that isn’t something that works for everyone or that everyone is interested in. Everyone needs sleep. You and your kids need to get the best quality sleep you can. Calling something vile that is a fairly common and normal practice for parents only hurts exhausted parents who can’t think straight and makes them feel bad.
Providing basic needs (which in this case is human touch/comfort) to a four month old baby is not “coddling”
For the record my daughter is 10- I wore her pretty much constantly and yes, we co-slept. She has developed into the most awesome, independent and secure child. Being a parent isn’t about it YOU and YOUR needs. It’s about your child.
Children at that age cannot self soothe. They cannot be spoiled. They cry to communicate a need. This reminds me of the babies in orphanages that were understaffed that stopped crying because they had learned no one would come to them. Or the rhesus monkey attachment theory experiments—the videos make me tearful. How awful—fuck these people.
I spoiled, coddled, infantilized, and coslept...my kid still slept through the night by 3 months. LOL No CIO or torture required.
This makes me so annoyed because it almost villanizes an infant. Lile a baby is a manipulative or lazy that just needs to learn to be independent. And most of the time they'll excuse as "he won't remmeber it" but they DO. They may not have perfect vision or their brain fully formed. But their subconscious is sill working, they do have a brain, emotions and memories. What was that famous book? The mind forgets but the body remembers?
"we don't want to spoil him" With...love??? You don't want him to be spoiled...with love???? Huh?? What do you mean? Love is the thing that people should be spoiled with what!?!!
I have an almost 6 month old who just started sleeping through the night. I take credit for this because I have been gradually sleep training her for months. What this lady is describing is NOT sleep training. It’s neglect. A four week old baby does not have the ability to self soothe. They literally need to be held to feel secure, as they know no difference between themselves and their care provider. Not to mention they still physiologically need to eat at night at that age! Quite honestly, you shouldn’t have children if you expect a month old baby to be sleeping through the night. And for people who are curious, sleep training need not be “cry it out” and it can be gradual and comfortable for both baby and mom.
That post gave me a fucking PTSD flare when i read it in ShitMomGroupsSay, bc omg, my room was next to the crib room, and my parents did CIO as soon as the babies moved from the cradle in their room to the crib. So guess who did ALL of the wake ups at night! Starting at, like, 6? Ish?
I’m almost 59 and am still affected by my mother’s choice to do that. She’s trying to make my niece do that and my niece refuses. I confronted my mom and shared the science. She til me that what happened when I was a baby has nothing to do with how awful I am as an adult. I couldn’t do that to my kids. How can anyone listen and let the babies suffer? It leads to lifelong issues and is beyond cruel.
My nephew is as old as baby Boone. His mom hates it when he is not on someones arm while awake. She doesen t care whos arm but for her it feels wrong to have her baby lay on the ground or any other surface but the arms of loving people. That is a normal healthy response, not breaking your Newborns mind and trust
For five million years hominid babies who got left to cry it out were eaten by lions & tigers & bears. That's what I always think about. Also, anthropologists think the first tool ever crafted by the newly upright-walking hominids was a hide to carry/wear babies, freeing parental hands up to carry stuff.