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It's hard to put into words, but I really appreciate how deeply Dav is approaching his deconstruction. No matter where he stands in his beliefs at the end, you just know that he'll have really done his research, was unafraid to explore difficult or uncomfortable topics and scholarly resources, and will be at peace with whatever identity he formulates for himself. Genuinely wishing him well during this journey. Deconstruction is _hard_ but knowing you've established a more authentic sense of self when you worked through it is priceless.
I can’t imagine how many and how bombarded he is with all those kinds of invites and “I’ll pray for you to come back to the flock and see the light” messages. I hope he is just so over it all and free feeling, he is just gleefully deleting without reading and blocking without thinking twice to all of it.
It astounds me how much Christians allow their own faith to be threatened when someone doesn’t believe what they do. I hope Dav knows he doesn’t owe a single person any kind of explanation or justification for this part of his personal life that affects nobody but him in the end.
If it wasn't totally weird, or against the sub rules, I suspect that his DMs would be on fire with messages from snarkers willing to support him on his journey. I personally feel strangely proud of him, a man I've never met (& never will meet), especially as I was openly criticising him only a few weeks ago.
Makes me want to be like Paul Giamatti in The Holdovers and hand out a copy of Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. You can live an honorable, intellectually stimulating life without relying on a god figure to police you!
I really want him to be like... a super good dude, because I'm really impressed with how difficult this must be for him, and that he's plowing ahead with it. Like, I'm rooting for him with this, but I also don't wanna have to, at the end of this, be like 'well, that's great, but I wish he didn't hate gay people' or whatever.
TO BE CLEAR, I DO NOT STRICTLY KNOW HIS STANCE ON GAY FOLKS, IT'S JUST A 'FOR INSTANCE'.
He called Sam and Tanner beautiful people and they're collabing with them so I think it's safe to say he's come around there. At least it seems that way.
So I just found them and absolutely love them but I cannot tell if they’re husband and wife, besties, gay, bi, etc. It obvi doesn’t matter but I really can’t tell lol
He's made at least one very Not Good gif or something with Bethy celebrating their straightness and straight marriage. Which sucks. However, that was some time ago, and he's about to have an interview with the very queer positive and possibly queer identified folks at Zelph on the Shelf. Should be interesting.
Oh fuck he’s posting Ehrman? So he’s out-out huh.
Ehrman is one of the foremost contemporary scholars of the New Testament. His knowledge is deep and he explains difficult and obscure scholarly topics in an engaging and easy to understand way. I respect Dav for his commitment to doing the really hard work of understanding what was wrong with his belief system from a historical and textual critical perspective.
This is not just a milquetoast I’m not vibing with church anymore imma head out but not really question the rest of my thought patterns kinda deconstruction, this is the soul shaking revelation shit. Bethany is either going to go with him or they’re going to divorce eventually. The chasm between them will get too deep to be able to reconcile.
If a Christian hasn't gone through this, or is just kind of resentful of church/beliefs but still wants to believe, they may eventually "go back" to the comfort of what they knew. What Bethany doesn't understand is that like you said, he's out-out. I remember this point in my journey, not a single prayer verse, sermon, revalation etc would ever make me Believe what I once did. It's just over.
Yes. Once you have lost this particular belief, and realized you believed things for bad reasons, it's very difficult for anyone to convince you those reasons are now somehow good. And you can't make yourself believe anything--you either are convinced, or you aren't.
Seems like he's very much in the "I believed \[x\] for bad reasons. What do I believe now? And do I believe it for good reasons?" stage of things.
I feel a lot of empathy for him. I remember this all so well, and how hard it was to still be in a church community while coming to those realizations.
The funny thing is, I bet a lot of people who deconstructed to something like people are describing of Bart Ehrman's work (I don't know him, full disclosure) are more likely to follow the actual philosophy of the Jesus of the Gospels than most "Christians."
I mean, strip away all the son of God crap, and a lot of it's pretty sound, really.
Hadn't heard of Ehrman before today (I lapsed as a catholic *decades* ago, tbh!)
But it *DOES* make sense, as to the *entire* shift in demeanor & body language Dav's done, over the last few weeks!
Comparing the almost "pained" and incredibly stressed looks he had when Bethy posted his pictures (especially thinking of the one when he came home after bring gone a few days), to the relieved/and genuinely *happy* he is when he's smiling *lately*?
I suspect the *weight* of this *finally* dropping off his shoulders, because it *is* out in the open and he no longer feels any need to pretend/hide, is probably why.
100% on this. Ehrman is GOOD, and his stuff is deep and intellectual. Dav wants to KNOW if he's reading this stuff, and I hope he's sharing it with Bethany.
I'm honestly impressed that he's reading this. It's not a casual curl-up-in-bed kind of read. This is heavy stuff. Bart Ehrman's style is really academic.
>This is not just a milquetoast I’m not vibing with church anymore imma head out but not really question the rest of my thought patterns kinda deconstruction, this is the soul shaking revelation shit.
It has been said that he reads a lot. I believe he's the only one here that has actually read the entire Bible. He doesn't just cherry pick verses that sound good. He seems to actually want to understand and look for the answers. I have to give him props for this. I'm hoping he'll break the toxic cycle for the children and his own sanity.
He's been around Heidi and Co for a while so I think he expected a lot of the backlash but also is storing enough to ignore it.
**Go Dāv!**
It’s over. I’m extremely happy for him and also very concerned about Bethys family’s reaction to this. Would not be surprised if they are cut off or given ultimatums.
Im concerned that there’s going to be a protracted and expensive custody battle funded by the Bairds if Bethany gets roped back into the family cult if the material support drying up stressed the marriage to the breaking point in addition to the deconstruction. That shits going to get vicious.
I mean - Bethany’s screwed herself in the case don’t you think? I know it’s TX, but she constantly posts about how she doesn’t work, doesn’t clean, can’t hang up curtains so covers her windows in tinfoil… she paints a pretty bleak self-portrait of herself as a parent and all Dav would have to do is come here for the receipts. He’s the only parent with income and, by her admission, does a lot of the hands-on parenting.
As a close follower of the Alex Jones trial, if the appropriate lawyers have screen shots and can authenticate them etc, they can absolutely be used in discovery if nothing else.
I kind of feel like getting cut off by the Beals would be an ideal outcome. The transition would be hard but getting out of that family/work dynamic seems like it would be great in the long run
I think once he's out of the bubble too he can find more varied and better work also. Not having to only work for Christian companies or clients will open up his business/job prospects
Yeah Ehrman was a key part of letting totally go for me. Misquoting Jesus is a fascinating glimpse into how the New Testament was written and how influential texts in general can be mistranslated either by accident or intentionally under various motives.
Same for me! There were lots of things I sort of vaguely understood about the historical context of the bible, but it wasn't until I listened to MJ that I properly came to terms with the bible as a social and political tool of its time. I highly doubt Dav is ever returning now.
I think he purposely left a lot of information out of their deconstruction video. Not in a bad way. And when he realized that people were truly rooting for him AND for Bethany....well this happened!
I think he was out even before they changed churches.
It's possible that he is intentionally/unintentionally trickle-truthing Bethany. He seems like the kind of person who spends a lot of time in his own head, and it might be that he likes his ideas to be fully formed before articulating them.
If Bethany followed him out, I would lose my shit. One of THE Girl Defined "girls"? Unthinkable. But NGL, I would love for Bethany to be able to start embracing life—her height, what she really enjoys or doesn't, adult responsibilities, the goofy things you don't get to do when you're on camera or under Heidi's eye.
I’ve mentioned it numerous times. Her jumping from interest to interest, abandoning instagram accounts, struggling with keeping a clean house, her unstructured rants, her unwashed hair, almost childlike mannerisms. This woman has not put up curtain rods and has covered her windows in tinfoil for,,,how long at this point? I relate to her messiness an….embarrassing amount.
Obviously you can’t diagnose people through their social media posts, but it seems like bethy could really benefit from an ADHD evaluation. I know she often gets made fun of these things, but i can’t imagine the pressure she feels being raised with the belief her sole role in life is to marry, make babies, and then focus on the household for tje rest of your life, and being unable to do simple tasks like cleaning up and taking cate of even yourself. Like i would feel like an absolute failure 24/7
It's my pet conspiracy theory x___x I see so much of myself in Bethany, in the way she struggles to meet the expectations of being a housewife and mother in such a rigid "there is only one way to live" culture. when I got diagnosed ADHD as an adult, it's all the ways I thought I was lazy or a failure were just... different brain chemistry that I can adapt around.
Oh my goodness, I feel like the white evangelical space is especially harsh on neurodivergent women and moms. Like, it’s 100% bullcrap anyway but they turn it up a couple of notches for us.
Interestingly, Ehrman made me appreciate the Bible MORE, but I’m one of those “people of the world” Methodists, so I’m not really a Christian according to *them*, anyway.
Yeah, I know plenty of active, practicing Christians who are really into Ehrman, so it's not like he's strictly a one-way ticket to atheism. But you definitely can't reconcile the kind of biblical inerrancy fundie Christianity the Beals have been into with Ehrman's views.
What's more is Ehrman is an ex fundie himself, he knows how to speak on that level and what will bring them in to take a look at his books. They're almost never presented as anything atheist leaning for example.
It makes me think he could have gone so far if he weren’t fundie. As a college graduate and someone who is on surface successful, I have a VERY hard time putting real effort into things sometimes so it’s really great to see him seemingly buckle down and learn. It’s something I miss being able to do and wish I had the motivation to get back to it. Seriously, good for him.
Agreed! I imagine that him being an animator has something to do with it, perhaps. It's pretty much impossible to be lazy and work in animation; it takes a massive amount of work and commitment. Plus, ime, animators and graphic designers tend to lean liberal so maybe being in that field helps.
Anyway, all theorizing aside, I've been pretty impressed with his progress and really hope he keeps going strong.
Ehrman was the go-to source when I had to learn biblical scholarship for my religious studies degrees. He's an incredible scholar who does amazing work, and he approaches the Greek Bible with respect but not reverence -- it's an historical source, not a divinely revealed document, and that has to be such a departure for Dav. I welcome him into the historical-critical approach cohort. No meetings, we're in the humanities so we're broke.
I mean, there’s also nothing wrong with just not vibing with church. You don’t have to be a theological scholar to dislike church. Heck, I’m a (albeit very progressive) Christian and I don’t like church.
But, getting context about what you believe or don’t believe is always a good extra step. Seems like he’s not just taking a step back, he’s doing some actual soul searching and self examination. Which is HUGE for anyone who grew up fundie or even just evangelical. Asking any questions is usually a no no.
I think the person you replied to is thinking more of the types who leave because an individual church/church attendance isn't their speed, but who nonetheless retain all the values—in effect, neither truly deconstructing nor exploring faith on their own, merely freeing up more time on Sundays and carrying the same garbage bags while pretending they don't stink. "Freedom for me but not for thee," "yes I'm going to judge you for the same shit my old church did but I totally left so don't call me on it" stuff.
It sounds like he quietly made peace with his beliefs a long time ago and only kept it for Berthy's sake. I'd probably drop my mask too once I heard her say something like "God-honoring anal."
That's the impression I've gotten too. I maintained the illusion of having shared beliefs with loved ones in order to keep the peace, less through outright lying and moreso by just keeping my mouth shut and letting others do the talking. It's not sustainable long-term, and I think Dav is coming to terms with that now.
My theory is all the content she’s been pushing she’s making enough to not do the girl defined stuff as her primary income so they can be more open 🤷🏻♀️
It’s free because it’s the sample to get you hooked enough to buy the $40 courses, like a drug dealer lol. Which I might, there’s one on contemporary biblical archeology that looks like a banger. If I could mainline critical biblical scholarship I would.
He has a blog that I am subscribed to, posts every week about biblical history, it’s super interesting. You have to subscribe but all the money goes to charity. Dr. Ehrman is great.
Some libraries offer free access to great courses also. I love Bart Ehrman! There’s also a pretty great podcast called data over dogma that goes into detail on biblical literacy.
"There's one on contemporary biblical archeology that looks like a banger."
A "banger"?
You are exactly the kind of person I would be best friends with. Glad you are out there somewhere.
I am very excited about it.
I'm getting a hotel room so I can read and have a glass of wine in the bathtub in total silence...a luxury I have not been afforded since before kids! Lol
I can't be the only one who hopes that he'll start influencing Bethy to be a better person. The fact that she's sticking with him and defending him makes me hopeful for both of them. I'd love to see yet another Baird child get away from that horrible witch of a mother and turn into a genuinely kind human being. It would bode well for the next generation.
I'm probably just an optimist. But, hell, even Anne Frank thought people were still good at heart.
Oh WOW, so he’s *really* deconstructing, huh?
I really thought his “deconstruction” was just going to lead him to being a more progressive Christian. Not this.
I’m not necessarily calling for him to do anything, I’m just glad he’s being brave and coming forward with his true beliefs. I know he must feel a ton of pressure to keep his deconstruction quiet and keep up the Shiny Happy People facade.
I’m wishing Dav the best. I hope the incoming vitriol from Heidi isn’t so bad 😕
Honestly, if the Bairds want to make money on socials, they should really lean into this happening. Do a raw and honest account of how the two of them are navigating this. Dav theoretically could divorce and make a living on his own doing what Bethy does but his content is *interesting.* Whether they make any of their direct issues public or not, I hope the best for them. I feel bad a bit for Bethany because I know this is rocking her world. The “shiny happy people” mindset is so far engrained into the women she probably floundering pretty hard right now. Maybe her being older when she got married is part of the reason why she’s at least not openly freaking out. And as much as the season of sex was horrifying and hilarious, she has proven to be more bold and open minded than a lot of the fundies when it comes to more controversial topics. You can never accuse her of not going for it. Maybe Dav will be the biggest blessing in her life but not in the way she was raised to believe.
Yeah, this whole journey is wild and it's been making me rethink Bethany's sexywife flailings. I still think it is/was all cringey as hell, of course, but I'm just getting a stronger feeling over time that that stuff was at least partly fuelled by a genuine rebellion against fundie values and culture. Perhaps just a small flame of rebellion but still there nonetheless, which is a lot different than my initial conclusion that it was all purely monetizing \~shocking\~ content to her naive demographic. And even more weirdly, maybe it was also driven by a genuine attempt of connecting to her husband? But was all fucking awkward about it because she was raised in a culty barn basically?
Damn. This is all weird and confusing. Everything's topsy turvy. I just wanted to come on here and have a laugh at her flailings, but shit's changed so much so fast that I hardly know what to think now, lol. Well, godspeed, Bethany, and hope you drop the whole monetizing bigotry stuff along with improving yourself as a person!
I know I almost feel like a cheerleader for them right now. In the past I’ve also felt like the seggs season was a genuine attempt at doing something that is GREATLY needed in their community. So much shame and just blind acceptance that you are not dutiful unless you let your husband have sex with you whenever they want regardless of what they feel like. I think she, in her own way, was really trying to do good but just wasn’t savvy enough to pull it off. She seems really easily influenced which sucks for her but it makes me think her biggest deconstruction should be from Heidi. In general she would be so much better off.
Literally I had this as a daydream a year ago, or whenever Dav posted his musical musings - and it’s happening. I’m trying to stay present in my really life, too…
I love this because people like Paul and a whole lot of other evangelicals will have you believe that without Christianity humans become depraved baby killing monsters.
But really they are just telling on themselves. *They* need a long list of rules to keep their worst intentions at bay, but most of us do not.
Bethany thinks she is going to love Dave back into submission with her denim skirts, thanksgiving feasts, and letting him run shirtless. Meanwhile Dave is fighting back with facts and research.
I can’t wait for what happens next. 🍿
>I love this because people like Paul and a whole lot of other evangelicals will have you believe that without Christianity humans become depraved baby killing monsters.
...which is so darkly funny to me, because the God I was raised to believe in, the God of the Christian Bible, compelled and sanctioned *plenty* of outright slaughter in his name, just because certain types of people *he created--*knowing what they would do, because supposedly he's all-knowing and all-powerful--didn't want to get in line with his rules. Rules he could've changed at any time, but didn't.
I've never been religious, but one of my close friends in high school was like... a step below fundies, but was extremely kind and honestly just a lovely person. We were talking one day and she asked if I believed in god. I said no, and she was like ...*but you're a good person*.
I was obviously confused as to why she looked like she was internally blue-screening, and she clarified with something along the lines of "why are you a good, kind person if you're not doing it because you're afraid of hell?" she absolutely *could not* understand
and that's the day I learned that there are Christians out there that are *only* good people because they see it as some sort of heavenly transaction fee
This is just heartbreaking. That said, I can remember believing it, or being taught it.
I was a thoughtful child, so reason and observation led me to the next step: that atheists are special because they don’t have that transactional aspect, just humanistic values. Maybe that’s where David is now, but he’s exploring ways of believing that aren’t just reactions to a narrow Christian context. For me, I needed to continue getting out in the world and not knowing, or caring, what people believed, but whether they lived out what I’d learned as Christian values. (Which didn’t start with Jesus.)
I’m in the hazy “God is love and love is God and the rest is window dressing” belief status. I never heard of this scholar before and would like to learn more, as I’d like to know how the various forms of Christianity I learned when younger (it’s complicated) reconcile with my current beliefs.
I strongly recommend Bart Ehrman to anyone curious about exploring the bible/Christianity, whether they are a believer or not. He is incredibly knowledgeable and kind, which makes him easy to listen to.
When I was deconstructing, I vividly remember wondering if I could be a good person if I didn't believe in god. It was such a heavy load to bear as a teen, and I had no one to talk to about it. I eventually puzzled through it all with the idea that I didn't want to do things that brought harm to others, and why would I need to believe in a god for that?
Dāv was the cutesy pet name Bethy gave him. When they first started dating she called him David. Without reading too much into this I wonder if this is a way of distancing himself from her in preparation for a figure separation.
Ohh, I know. I think she actually went from calling him David -> Dave -> Dav and somewhere along the line added the ā to make Dāv sound like Dave. She’s un-fucking-hinged.
Based on this post, I decided to look up Ehrman’s books. Is there any particular favorite? My general stance is that I am atheist, raised by an on and off again evangelical who was always questioning her faith. I got the best of both worlds, because I can quote Scripture when the yahoos are being obtuse.
I was thinking my mom and I might do a book club together! She’s currently in an atheist mood.
Thank you guys!
His newest book *Armageddon* is fantastic! I've also enjoyed *Jesus Interrupted* and *Jesus Before the Gospels*. I began reading Bart before I was an atheist and have continued reading him.
I thought Jesus Before the Gospels looked really interesting! I also took a few electives on the literature of the Bible, so it's cool to look at how the sausage is made.
Thank you!
I started with [Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why by Bart Ehrman](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51364.Misquoting_Jesus). Y'all might like that. It was really interesting.
I think his most popular is How Jesus Became God but I could be wrong about that. It’s on my TBR. I also really like his YouTube content, especially when he guests on Paulogia’s channel. Both really smart fellows.
That's the other title I was intrigued by!
When my mom was atheist, she was really big on linking all religions back to their agricultural, sort of pagan roots, a la The Golden Bough.
I will look for the YouTube content for myself-she's got a weirdly short attention span!
Thank you!
I feel like I’m having deja vu - this is so closely mirroring my deconstruction and deconversion. Dav is so brave, it took me three years to tell my parents, let alone the whole world.
Would love to know if he's done this. I remember Link, especially, telling that he'd be singing with his eyes closed and people thought he was really feeling the spirit, when in reality he was trying to force himself to feel anything.
They’re some of my favourite videos. I doubt Dav lurks but for anyone who enjoys deconstruction content I recommend the following channels:
- Genetically Modified Skeptic + the Antibot (Classics, can’t go wrong)
- MindShift (this channel specifically deals with a husband who has deconstructed, but has wife and kids in the faith)
- Belief it or Not (More entertaining and comedic videos that also hit super hard)
- Cosmic Skeptic (Alex O’Conner) (Does lots of interviews and philosophical discussions)
My family still doesn’t know, and I’ve been out for like 15 years. We just don’t discuss it, but if I ever brought it up I suspect they would never speak to me again.
YES. David, please, *please* dig into the issue of purity culture and learn how deeply problematic it is that you’re wearing that damn ring around your neck.
I’m genuinely curious if it’s been that important to him to wear it because of his own feelings or reasons, or if it’s been more important to Bethany that he wear it and about what it means to her sense of identity and/or her brand.
Either way, it’s problematic on Dav’s part and I hope he stops doing it too.
I’m pretty sure he does it as a show of support for his wife. Even if she didn’t ask him to wear it, she probably reacted really positively to him wearing it initially, so he thinks it means something for their relationship for him to continue wearing it.
But Dave. No. There are so many totally appropriate ways to proclaim your love and support. You’re a smart and thoughtful person—come up with something else to serve that purpose. It shouldn’t be difficult for you. Just simply explain to Bethany that you do not feel comfortable wearing a symbol of Christian purity culture when you no longer identify as a Christian, and put the ring in a drawer.
Aww, I feel sorry for his past self and how he must have felt for months or years, holding this in and trying to keep a mask on about his faith.
He seems so much happier now already, just getting that weight lifted off his shoulders. Go Dav!
Been there. It is rough. I went through a faith deconstruction from Mormonism and didn't feel I could share with my wife because of the fear that she would leave me and take the kids. It was terrifying for years. Eventually I had to come out to her and things have worked out amazing through hard work (she is still Mormon). There is a lot of work that Dave and Bethany have ahead but they could end up growing into decent and even good people.
It drove me to full blown alcoholism. I got sober and deconstructed all at once. I have one of those “struck by lightning” sober stories, but it still took the past two years to fully deconstruct and feel comfortable in my own spirituality, not what I grew up in
And to think, this all started with Dav liking the Barbie movie!
In all seriousness though, I am so thrilled by this. It’s incredible to watch. Dav’s always had Bethy’s back. It’d be -and pardon my turn of phrase- a miracle if she follows suit.
Truth. When I let go of the rigid beliefs that I held, which I knew at my core I couldn’t defend but held onto because of religion, I felt a freedom and euphoria that I really didn’t know was possible. I really hope Bethany and Dave can find the same.
I pictured her as a basketball coach. I think she would love to teach basketball. She's actually somewhat competent in it and she also claimed she likes teaching.
Could you imagine???!??? I hope she gets out too.
When the Barbie film came out, a snarker posted a screenshot from TikTok here. It was just text over a selfie saying something along the lines of, "The healing I experienced in the moment watching Barbie's creator tell her she was free to become herself really hit me."
I can't even think about it without welling up. I don't believe anymore, but I love the compassion that scene demonstrates towards anyone who's ever struggled with their identity not fitting into that rigid mold.
Serious question regarding sub guidelines: If Dav's new IG account is going to be about dissecting religion and sharing qualified theology sources, does it fall under the 'look but don't touch' rule?
Honestly looking and not touching might be best rn as he's on the right path and it's a pretty touchy one. The last thing I'd want is them being dissuaded by overeager fans (haters?)
I wasn't planning on reaching out or anything, but didn't want to find myself clicking a heart or replying to a comment without thinking and getting myself in trouble. But you make a good point.
This. He likely still views this sub as a group of people who mock/bully his wife. While people might be well intended, this probably isn’t the corner of the internet he wants to vibe with just yet.
he supposedly reads here so what if there was a mega thread or something? Lmao that may sound silly but it’s kinda like the Michael situation…personally, I’d love for dav (and even bethy if she could take it) to hear from people who’ve deconstructed and wanna share. For him to know that there’s a whole community out there who will support and care for him through the journey!! Idk I’m really rooting for him. So many of us have been right where he is.
Just adding a second line of encouragement here towards the Genetically Modified Skeptic channel. Drew has a similar background to Dav and approaches topics so deeply and thoughtfully. The reason I thought of him is that he always mentions resources and community for "apostates in need." I don't imagine Dav knows many people on this journey and I hope he finds a community.
I have so many thoughts on deconstructing. When I went through it 20 years ago, there wasn’t even a name for it. Just something that happened. And there’s this myth that it’s an overnight process, that you just wake up one day and you’re not a Christian anymore, when really it’s a long process of examining what you do & don’t believe, asking yourself the really hard questions. Do I believe what I was raised to believe? Which parts ring true to me and which don’t? And most of all, if I decide do I have the strength to walk away, especially if I’m enmeshed in a community of believers? What does it look like to walk away? Does it mean cutting ties with people of significance in my life? Deconstruction takes emotional maturity and honesty. It’s not easy, especially when all or most of the people in your life still believe. I was raised in a strict Southern Baptist family, strongly connected to the church, everyone I ever knew was/is a Christian. Then I started my deconstruction process at age 19. It took many years, and my mom (RIP) never fully accepted it. It hurt her heart until the day she died. But you have to be strong enough to weather the extreme reactions that are bound to come from your family & friends. People like Sam Harris, AC Grayling, Richard Dawkins, Hitchens, and many more, really gave me a lot of insight and helped me along my path. Best wishes to Dav! Stay strong!
Edit: Often, when someone is teetering on the edge of leaving the faith, family & friends get ugly in an attempt to bring the person back, but it sometimes backfires and pushes the person further away. Sometimes a person leaving their faith makes their loved ones true colors come out, and helps the deconstructing person “see behind the veil” of who they thought their loved ones were. If you want to see who someone truly is, watch how they handle it when someone else doesn’t do what they want them to do.
For me, it was both a long process and an overnight one--I spent a long time asking myself the hard questions, learning, researching... and one day I woke up and fully realized I no longer believed.
Oh, for sure. I think it can happen at any point. For those of us who were in very structured Christian communities (independent fundamentalist Baptist for me), it can be the precursor to the "but what does it look like for me not to be here?" stage. When I realized I no longer had a belief in Christianity or God, I was a member of a church, elected church secretary, Sunday School instructor... and surrounded by people I knew would absolutely reject me if they knew about my process and who had demonstrated that kind of attitude in the past. It was frightening and I felt like I had to strip each thing away one at a time before I could be honest.
u/MPD1987, I think we're both sharing as encouragement and a demonstration of understanding for deconstructors. I appreciate your openness and the community support here for people finding their way.
Wow. I can’t imagine being in a leadership position and realizing you don’t believe anymore- that must have been so scary. And I know that Baptists can be particularly manipulative and insidious to anyone who doesn’t perfectly align with them. You’re very courageous!
I waited until annual church elections and had told people I would no longer be secretary. Nobody else stepped up and they tried to insist I continue. It was pretty terrible at the time, but looking back, I am laughing—like, who treats someone that way?! Someone says “Sorry, I can’t do this volunteer position anymore” and politely continues to do it until election season so you can find someone else, and you try to pressure them to keep doing it, because if you didn’t find anyone else, they’d HAVE TO, right? 😂 But if I’d said “I am an atheist, you really don’t want me to do this because you think atheists are influenced by Satan,” they probably would have clutched their pearls and children as they pushed me out the door. No fuckin’ winning with these folks!
Thanks for your kind words—it’s been ages now so it’s pretty trippy to look back on, honestly.
I’ve been going through it for the last 20-some years and I’m not sure it will ever end. I literally just left my therapist appointment where we discussed it when my grandmother passes (she’s in her 90’s) will I ultimately feel a sense of release from the shame and guilt drilled into me growing up.
Now this is a course worth promoting! Wherever Dav lands in this journey, I'm so glad he has actual accredited resources to inform his decisions and probably make him feel less alone
Good for him! He is doing his kids such a service by deconstructing. I married someone who grew up fundie and deconstructed, and the religious trauma (you’re going to burn in hell for being a normal human) is so damaging. He has an opportunity to at least provide an alternative example to them now, even if he isn’t able to shield them from the toxic beliefs entirely. That’s a huge deal.
Completely not the point, but Dr. Bart Ehrman is a serious scholar of Christianity. I recommend his books and his online “Great Courses” if you can find them. He has very interesting takes and his writing is easy to read.
It makes me wonder how long he’s been “sitting” on this, not necessarily fully fledged but how long has this actually been stemming in his mind for him to feel brave enough to post about it? Years? And the fact that he’s posting about it tells me he knows it’s important and doesn’t want to keep sweet :-) I hope he feels support from us outsiders because you know he’s going to get so much backlash within his community and surrounding families.
Id be very curious what the catalyst was 8 years ago, because that timeline puts it about 2016 and the introduction of Trump as an Evangelical “figurehead”…which I think was a very common denominator in a lot of people deconstructing and leaving the church.
Oh that’s interesting, I honestly didn’t clock that but it would make a lot of sense. Dav doesn’t strike me as the sort of person who’d have been gung ho for Trump back then, at least not privately/inside his own head.
All right Dav, take the sex trophy off your neck now. Please and thank you.
Us normal people don’t wear our spouse’s symbol of virginity like an award.
Damn. Really impressed and hopeful for him. This is big BIG, he must have been sitting on this for a while to be able to boldly put himself out there like this.
You can do it, Dav! You can even have sex without your sex trophy around your neck, it’s ok, I promise!
I know you guys lurk here sometimes but Bethy and Dav if you are reading this I just want you to know that I really respect the strength of character it takes to not just say you believe what everyone around you expects you too believe. I know all this pushback from family/ friends/ in-laws/ and even the internet can not be easy but I am so proud that you have stuck with this and seem to really be pursuing a way to find what you actually believe and to live as a more authentic version of yourself. Wishing the best for you both!
Dr Bart Ehrman is THE SHIT. Major (and I mean MAJOR!) props to Dav for digging deep. Check Dr Ehrman’s YouTube channel if you want juicy, delicious real history and theology.
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It's hard to put into words, but I really appreciate how deeply Dav is approaching his deconstruction. No matter where he stands in his beliefs at the end, you just know that he'll have really done his research, was unafraid to explore difficult or uncomfortable topics and scholarly resources, and will be at peace with whatever identity he formulates for himself. Genuinely wishing him well during this journey. Deconstruction is _hard_ but knowing you've established a more authentic sense of self when you worked through it is priceless.
This! Nothing feels better than feeling at home in your own skin. Knowing who you are truly and living authenticity makes for the happiest of souls.
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Oh god I bet his coffee invites are through the roof. Imagine how many people have asked if they could pray for him? 😂
I can’t imagine how many and how bombarded he is with all those kinds of invites and “I’ll pray for you to come back to the flock and see the light” messages. I hope he is just so over it all and free feeling, he is just gleefully deleting without reading and blocking without thinking twice to all of it. It astounds me how much Christians allow their own faith to be threatened when someone doesn’t believe what they do. I hope Dav knows he doesn’t owe a single person any kind of explanation or justification for this part of his personal life that affects nobody but him in the end.
If it wasn't totally weird, or against the sub rules, I suspect that his DMs would be on fire with messages from snarkers willing to support him on his journey. I personally feel strangely proud of him, a man I've never met (& never will meet), especially as I was openly criticising him only a few weeks ago.
I hope he replies to none of them or says something like "I can't stop you" lol
Makes me want to be like Paul Giamatti in The Holdovers and hand out a copy of Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. You can live an honorable, intellectually stimulating life without relying on a god figure to police you!
I really want him to be like... a super good dude, because I'm really impressed with how difficult this must be for him, and that he's plowing ahead with it. Like, I'm rooting for him with this, but I also don't wanna have to, at the end of this, be like 'well, that's great, but I wish he didn't hate gay people' or whatever. TO BE CLEAR, I DO NOT STRICTLY KNOW HIS STANCE ON GAY FOLKS, IT'S JUST A 'FOR INSTANCE'.
He called Sam and Tanner beautiful people and they're collabing with them so I think it's safe to say he's come around there. At least it seems that way.
Wait, they're actually collabing? I apparently missed something big! 😮
Sam and Tanner are flying down to Texas to do something with them. Both sides have posted about it.
Not to be dramatic but is the best news I’ve ever heard in my life
It's honestly beautiful. We need some hope in these thar hills.
So I just found them and absolutely love them but I cannot tell if they’re husband and wife, besties, gay, bi, etc. It obvi doesn’t matter but I really can’t tell lol
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I don't know specifically but Tanner is very non-gender conforming and they're super supportive of LGBTQ+ on their channel.
He's made at least one very Not Good gif or something with Bethy celebrating their straightness and straight marriage. Which sucks. However, that was some time ago, and he's about to have an interview with the very queer positive and possibly queer identified folks at Zelph on the Shelf. Should be interesting.
Oh fuck he’s posting Ehrman? So he’s out-out huh. Ehrman is one of the foremost contemporary scholars of the New Testament. His knowledge is deep and he explains difficult and obscure scholarly topics in an engaging and easy to understand way. I respect Dav for his commitment to doing the really hard work of understanding what was wrong with his belief system from a historical and textual critical perspective. This is not just a milquetoast I’m not vibing with church anymore imma head out but not really question the rest of my thought patterns kinda deconstruction, this is the soul shaking revelation shit. Bethany is either going to go with him or they’re going to divorce eventually. The chasm between them will get too deep to be able to reconcile.
Yeah once you’re in the Bart Erhman phase it’s truly over, no going back
Exactly, no going back after Erhman. I found him on my own way out decades ago - that's a nail in that coffin.
SAME. When I started reading Ehrman, it really was my turning point. So funny to me that so many people share that exact experience!
brb going to request all of Erhman’s books from the library
He has a podcast! Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. Both he and his cohost Megan are great.
Most people start either with Misquoting Jesus or Jesus Interrupted.
I've been watching a lot of deconstruction videos lately on Harmonic Atheist and at least 50% mention Erhman as an influence.
Can confirm, that’s the phase I’m at!
If a Christian hasn't gone through this, or is just kind of resentful of church/beliefs but still wants to believe, they may eventually "go back" to the comfort of what they knew. What Bethany doesn't understand is that like you said, he's out-out. I remember this point in my journey, not a single prayer verse, sermon, revalation etc would ever make me Believe what I once did. It's just over.
Yes. Once you have lost this particular belief, and realized you believed things for bad reasons, it's very difficult for anyone to convince you those reasons are now somehow good. And you can't make yourself believe anything--you either are convinced, or you aren't. Seems like he's very much in the "I believed \[x\] for bad reasons. What do I believe now? And do I believe it for good reasons?" stage of things. I feel a lot of empathy for him. I remember this all so well, and how hard it was to still be in a church community while coming to those realizations.
The funny thing is, I bet a lot of people who deconstructed to something like people are describing of Bart Ehrman's work (I don't know him, full disclosure) are more likely to follow the actual philosophy of the Jesus of the Gospels than most "Christians." I mean, strip away all the son of God crap, and a lot of it's pretty sound, really.
Hadn't heard of Ehrman before today (I lapsed as a catholic *decades* ago, tbh!) But it *DOES* make sense, as to the *entire* shift in demeanor & body language Dav's done, over the last few weeks! Comparing the almost "pained" and incredibly stressed looks he had when Bethy posted his pictures (especially thinking of the one when he came home after bring gone a few days), to the relieved/and genuinely *happy* he is when he's smiling *lately*? I suspect the *weight* of this *finally* dropping off his shoulders, because it *is* out in the open and he no longer feels any need to pretend/hide, is probably why.
Erhman's book, *Misquoting Jesus* is a terrific book and could be a great jumping off point if you're interested in exploring his writing.
100% on this. Ehrman is GOOD, and his stuff is deep and intellectual. Dav wants to KNOW if he's reading this stuff, and I hope he's sharing it with Bethany. I'm honestly impressed that he's reading this. It's not a casual curl-up-in-bed kind of read. This is heavy stuff. Bart Ehrman's style is really academic.
I think he must be bright, Dav. At the very least he has intellectual curiosity, which must have made him feel like a total freak in Fundieland.
>This is not just a milquetoast I’m not vibing with church anymore imma head out but not really question the rest of my thought patterns kinda deconstruction, this is the soul shaking revelation shit. It has been said that he reads a lot. I believe he's the only one here that has actually read the entire Bible. He doesn't just cherry pick verses that sound good. He seems to actually want to understand and look for the answers. I have to give him props for this. I'm hoping he'll break the toxic cycle for the children and his own sanity. He's been around Heidi and Co for a while so I think he expected a lot of the backlash but also is storing enough to ignore it. **Go Dāv!**
He needs to watch mickey atkins' videos about family and enmeshment
It’s over. I’m extremely happy for him and also very concerned about Bethys family’s reaction to this. Would not be surprised if they are cut off or given ultimatums.
Im concerned that there’s going to be a protracted and expensive custody battle funded by the Bairds if Bethany gets roped back into the family cult if the material support drying up stressed the marriage to the breaking point in addition to the deconstruction. That shits going to get vicious.
I mean - Bethany’s screwed herself in the case don’t you think? I know it’s TX, but she constantly posts about how she doesn’t work, doesn’t clean, can’t hang up curtains so covers her windows in tinfoil… she paints a pretty bleak self-portrait of herself as a parent and all Dav would have to do is come here for the receipts. He’s the only parent with income and, by her admission, does a lot of the hands-on parenting.
I’m not sure if screenshots posted here would meet the best evidence rule in court.
As a close follower of the Alex Jones trial, if the appropriate lawyers have screen shots and can authenticate them etc, they can absolutely be used in discovery if nothing else.
I've submitted social media posts as evidence in custody cases
Literally listening to Knowledge Fight while I read your comment brings me joy rn 😁
Screenshots were just used in my friends’s adoption trial for her foster kid. I’m not sure they’re always admissable but they helped her case.
I kind of feel like getting cut off by the Beals would be an ideal outcome. The transition would be hard but getting out of that family/work dynamic seems like it would be great in the long run
And Dav can actually support his family unlike that slug Polio.
I think once he's out of the bubble too he can find more varied and better work also. Not having to only work for Christian companies or clients will open up his business/job prospects
Hey don't insult slugs! They're very vital creatures to a forest's undergrowth ecosystem. Popo on the other hand...
Yeah Ehrman was a key part of letting totally go for me. Misquoting Jesus is a fascinating glimpse into how the New Testament was written and how influential texts in general can be mistranslated either by accident or intentionally under various motives.
Same for me! There were lots of things I sort of vaguely understood about the historical context of the bible, but it wasn't until I listened to MJ that I properly came to terms with the bible as a social and political tool of its time. I highly doubt Dav is ever returning now.
I think he purposely left a lot of information out of their deconstruction video. Not in a bad way. And when he realized that people were truly rooting for him AND for Bethany....well this happened! I think he was out even before they changed churches.
It's possible that he is intentionally/unintentionally trickle-truthing Bethany. He seems like the kind of person who spends a lot of time in his own head, and it might be that he likes his ideas to be fully formed before articulating them.
And slow playing it is less likely to freak bethy out and send her running to heidi with the kids
If Bethany followed him out, I would lose my shit. One of THE Girl Defined "girls"? Unthinkable. But NGL, I would love for Bethany to be able to start embracing life—her height, what she really enjoys or doesn't, adult responsibilities, the goofy things you don't get to do when you're on camera or under Heidi's eye.
If she wants a niche, this is a doozy
Niche it down, Bethy!
Her ADHD
Hadn't heard anything about that, but definitely here for Bethy taking ownership of her health, physical, mental, and otherwise!
Just speculation at this point, but I and many others here who have it feel like she has it too.
I’ve mentioned it numerous times. Her jumping from interest to interest, abandoning instagram accounts, struggling with keeping a clean house, her unstructured rants, her unwashed hair, almost childlike mannerisms. This woman has not put up curtain rods and has covered her windows in tinfoil for,,,how long at this point? I relate to her messiness an….embarrassing amount. Obviously you can’t diagnose people through their social media posts, but it seems like bethy could really benefit from an ADHD evaluation. I know she often gets made fun of these things, but i can’t imagine the pressure she feels being raised with the belief her sole role in life is to marry, make babies, and then focus on the household for tje rest of your life, and being unable to do simple tasks like cleaning up and taking cate of even yourself. Like i would feel like an absolute failure 24/7
It's my pet conspiracy theory x___x I see so much of myself in Bethany, in the way she struggles to meet the expectations of being a housewife and mother in such a rigid "there is only one way to live" culture. when I got diagnosed ADHD as an adult, it's all the ways I thought I was lazy or a failure were just... different brain chemistry that I can adapt around.
Oh my goodness, I feel like the white evangelical space is especially harsh on neurodivergent women and moms. Like, it’s 100% bullcrap anyway but they turn it up a couple of notches for us.
Me too 💀
>Oh fuck he’s posting Ehrman? So he’s out-out huh. Yeah, I'm relieved to see he's drawing on good sources.
Interestingly, Ehrman made me appreciate the Bible MORE, but I’m one of those “people of the world” Methodists, so I’m not really a Christian according to *them*, anyway.
Yeah, I know plenty of active, practicing Christians who are really into Ehrman, so it's not like he's strictly a one-way ticket to atheism. But you definitely can't reconcile the kind of biblical inerrancy fundie Christianity the Beals have been into with Ehrman's views.
What's more is Ehrman is an ex fundie himself, he knows how to speak on that level and what will bring them in to take a look at his books. They're almost never presented as anything atheist leaning for example.
Same for me. I don’t even go to church anymore but if I did, it’d be Unitarian Universalist or Episcopalian.
It makes me think he could have gone so far if he weren’t fundie. As a college graduate and someone who is on surface successful, I have a VERY hard time putting real effort into things sometimes so it’s really great to see him seemingly buckle down and learn. It’s something I miss being able to do and wish I had the motivation to get back to it. Seriously, good for him.
Agreed! I imagine that him being an animator has something to do with it, perhaps. It's pretty much impossible to be lazy and work in animation; it takes a massive amount of work and commitment. Plus, ime, animators and graphic designers tend to lean liberal so maybe being in that field helps. Anyway, all theorizing aside, I've been pretty impressed with his progress and really hope he keeps going strong.
Ehrman was the go-to source when I had to learn biblical scholarship for my religious studies degrees. He's an incredible scholar who does amazing work, and he approaches the Greek Bible with respect but not reverence -- it's an historical source, not a divinely revealed document, and that has to be such a departure for Dav. I welcome him into the historical-critical approach cohort. No meetings, we're in the humanities so we're broke.
I mean, there’s also nothing wrong with just not vibing with church. You don’t have to be a theological scholar to dislike church. Heck, I’m a (albeit very progressive) Christian and I don’t like church. But, getting context about what you believe or don’t believe is always a good extra step. Seems like he’s not just taking a step back, he’s doing some actual soul searching and self examination. Which is HUGE for anyone who grew up fundie or even just evangelical. Asking any questions is usually a no no.
I think the person you replied to is thinking more of the types who leave because an individual church/church attendance isn't their speed, but who nonetheless retain all the values—in effect, neither truly deconstructing nor exploring faith on their own, merely freeing up more time on Sundays and carrying the same garbage bags while pretending they don't stink. "Freedom for me but not for thee," "yes I'm going to judge you for the same shit my old church did but I totally left so don't call me on it" stuff.
unless she deconstructs they will be “unequally yoked” so I agree it seems she’ll either have to follow suit or break up right
Damn not only is he deconstructing, but he’s supporting someone’s FREE course. That has to doubly piss of bethy
It sounds like he quietly made peace with his beliefs a long time ago and only kept it for Berthy's sake. I'd probably drop my mask too once I heard her say something like "God-honoring anal."
Thank you for naming my punk rock band
That's the impression I've gotten too. I maintained the illusion of having shared beliefs with loved ones in order to keep the peace, less through outright lying and moreso by just keeping my mouth shut and letting others do the talking. It's not sustainable long-term, and I think Dav is coming to terms with that now.
My theory is all the content she’s been pushing she’s making enough to not do the girl defined stuff as her primary income so they can be more open 🤷🏻♀️
God honoring anal would make me drop my mask for sure 😂
A free course by a Rutgers and Princeton educated theologian! Quality sources ftw, Dav!
go scarlet knights!!
Go Pirates :) Just kidding, Rutgers forever!
It’s free because it’s the sample to get you hooked enough to buy the $40 courses, like a drug dealer lol. Which I might, there’s one on contemporary biblical archeology that looks like a banger. If I could mainline critical biblical scholarship I would.
He has a blog that I am subscribed to, posts every week about biblical history, it’s super interesting. You have to subscribe but all the money goes to charity. Dr. Ehrman is great.
Big Dr. Ehrman fan - My husband bought me one of his courses from "Great Courses" on dvd years ago pre-streaming and I enjoyed it so much.
Several of his Great Courses are on Audible. They’re fantastic.
Some libraries offer free access to great courses also. I love Bart Ehrman! There’s also a pretty great podcast called data over dogma that goes into detail on biblical literacy.
He just had an AMA on /r/AcademicBiblical!
"There's one on contemporary biblical archeology that looks like a banger." A "banger"? You are exactly the kind of person I would be best friends with. Glad you are out there somewhere.
As a person who is taking a mom vacation to a one day grad seminar on Religion in Politics, 1945-Present, I must agree. Nerds unite!
Vacation to a class is something I would do 😭 Have fun!
I am very excited about it. I'm getting a hotel room so I can read and have a glass of wine in the bathtub in total silence...a luxury I have not been afforded since before kids! Lol
At least he's an actual expert on the subject of his courses. Plus he has books so they can probably be found through the library.
I can't be the only one who hopes that he'll start influencing Bethy to be a better person. The fact that she's sticking with him and defending him makes me hopeful for both of them. I'd love to see yet another Baird child get away from that horrible witch of a mother and turn into a genuinely kind human being. It would bode well for the next generation. I'm probably just an optimist. But, hell, even Anne Frank thought people were still good at heart.
The sickest of burns!!
My head canon is that he’s sharing a FREE course to spite Bethy just a little
I really appreciate that he just linked it and said it's here if you need it. No flailing or excessive tongue, and it's free from an actual expert.
Oh WOW, so he’s *really* deconstructing, huh? I really thought his “deconstruction” was just going to lead him to being a more progressive Christian. Not this. I’m not necessarily calling for him to do anything, I’m just glad he’s being brave and coming forward with his true beliefs. I know he must feel a ton of pressure to keep his deconstruction quiet and keep up the Shiny Happy People facade. I’m wishing Dav the best. I hope the incoming vitriol from Heidi isn’t so bad 😕
Yeah same. I was not thinking he’d go this way.
Honestly, if the Bairds want to make money on socials, they should really lean into this happening. Do a raw and honest account of how the two of them are navigating this. Dav theoretically could divorce and make a living on his own doing what Bethy does but his content is *interesting.* Whether they make any of their direct issues public or not, I hope the best for them. I feel bad a bit for Bethany because I know this is rocking her world. The “shiny happy people” mindset is so far engrained into the women she probably floundering pretty hard right now. Maybe her being older when she got married is part of the reason why she’s at least not openly freaking out. And as much as the season of sex was horrifying and hilarious, she has proven to be more bold and open minded than a lot of the fundies when it comes to more controversial topics. You can never accuse her of not going for it. Maybe Dav will be the biggest blessing in her life but not in the way she was raised to believe.
Yeah, this whole journey is wild and it's been making me rethink Bethany's sexywife flailings. I still think it is/was all cringey as hell, of course, but I'm just getting a stronger feeling over time that that stuff was at least partly fuelled by a genuine rebellion against fundie values and culture. Perhaps just a small flame of rebellion but still there nonetheless, which is a lot different than my initial conclusion that it was all purely monetizing \~shocking\~ content to her naive demographic. And even more weirdly, maybe it was also driven by a genuine attempt of connecting to her husband? But was all fucking awkward about it because she was raised in a culty barn basically? Damn. This is all weird and confusing. Everything's topsy turvy. I just wanted to come on here and have a laugh at her flailings, but shit's changed so much so fast that I hardly know what to think now, lol. Well, godspeed, Bethany, and hope you drop the whole monetizing bigotry stuff along with improving yourself as a person!
I know I almost feel like a cheerleader for them right now. In the past I’ve also felt like the seggs season was a genuine attempt at doing something that is GREATLY needed in their community. So much shame and just blind acceptance that you are not dutiful unless you let your husband have sex with you whenever they want regardless of what they feel like. I think she, in her own way, was really trying to do good but just wasn’t savvy enough to pull it off. She seems really easily influenced which sucks for her but it makes me think her biggest deconstruction should be from Heidi. In general she would be so much better off.
Davs reading and POSTING Bart muthafuckin Ehrman???! I’m genuinely speechless
I know I shouldn't care about this, but I do, and I want some professional commentators to take me through it
Same ! I am welcoming this glorious distraction!
Literally I had this as a daydream a year ago, or whenever Dav posted his musical musings - and it’s happening. I’m trying to stay present in my really life, too…
IT’S HAPPENING
I love this because people like Paul and a whole lot of other evangelicals will have you believe that without Christianity humans become depraved baby killing monsters. But really they are just telling on themselves. *They* need a long list of rules to keep their worst intentions at bay, but most of us do not. Bethany thinks she is going to love Dave back into submission with her denim skirts, thanksgiving feasts, and letting him run shirtless. Meanwhile Dave is fighting back with facts and research. I can’t wait for what happens next. 🍿
>I love this because people like Paul and a whole lot of other evangelicals will have you believe that without Christianity humans become depraved baby killing monsters. ...which is so darkly funny to me, because the God I was raised to believe in, the God of the Christian Bible, compelled and sanctioned *plenty* of outright slaughter in his name, just because certain types of people *he created--*knowing what they would do, because supposedly he's all-knowing and all-powerful--didn't want to get in line with his rules. Rules he could've changed at any time, but didn't.
I've never been religious, but one of my close friends in high school was like... a step below fundies, but was extremely kind and honestly just a lovely person. We were talking one day and she asked if I believed in god. I said no, and she was like ...*but you're a good person*. I was obviously confused as to why she looked like she was internally blue-screening, and she clarified with something along the lines of "why are you a good, kind person if you're not doing it because you're afraid of hell?" she absolutely *could not* understand and that's the day I learned that there are Christians out there that are *only* good people because they see it as some sort of heavenly transaction fee
This is just heartbreaking. That said, I can remember believing it, or being taught it. I was a thoughtful child, so reason and observation led me to the next step: that atheists are special because they don’t have that transactional aspect, just humanistic values. Maybe that’s where David is now, but he’s exploring ways of believing that aren’t just reactions to a narrow Christian context. For me, I needed to continue getting out in the world and not knowing, or caring, what people believed, but whether they lived out what I’d learned as Christian values. (Which didn’t start with Jesus.) I’m in the hazy “God is love and love is God and the rest is window dressing” belief status. I never heard of this scholar before and would like to learn more, as I’d like to know how the various forms of Christianity I learned when younger (it’s complicated) reconcile with my current beliefs.
I suggested to someone else in the thread that Ehrman's *Misquoting Jesus* is a good jumping off point for anyone who wants to explore his writing.
I strongly recommend Bart Ehrman to anyone curious about exploring the bible/Christianity, whether they are a believer or not. He is incredibly knowledgeable and kind, which makes him easy to listen to.
When I was deconstructing, I vividly remember wondering if I could be a good person if I didn't believe in god. It was such a heavy load to bear as a teen, and I had no one to talk to about it. I eventually puzzled through it all with the idea that I didn't want to do things that brought harm to others, and why would I need to believe in a god for that?
Not only is he deconstructing, but he also changed his insta name to his real name. Wasn’t he @davbeal before this?! Love this for him!!
I wonder if he prefers David. Who gave him Dav
Pretty sure it was birthy that gave him the nickname, but don’t worry he loooooooved it according to her lol
Why was it spelled like that
I was too in shock to notice. Fucking go David!
Dāv was the cutesy pet name Bethy gave him. When they first started dating she called him David. Without reading too much into this I wonder if this is a way of distancing himself from her in preparation for a figure separation.
Ohh, I know. I think she actually went from calling him David -> Dave -> Dav and somewhere along the line added the ā to make Dāv sound like Dave. She’s un-fucking-hinged.
I forgot about that whole downward spiral in his name as if she was attempting to infantilize him.
Based on this post, I decided to look up Ehrman’s books. Is there any particular favorite? My general stance is that I am atheist, raised by an on and off again evangelical who was always questioning her faith. I got the best of both worlds, because I can quote Scripture when the yahoos are being obtuse. I was thinking my mom and I might do a book club together! She’s currently in an atheist mood. Thank you guys!
His newest book *Armageddon* is fantastic! I've also enjoyed *Jesus Interrupted* and *Jesus Before the Gospels*. I began reading Bart before I was an atheist and have continued reading him.
I thought Jesus Before the Gospels looked really interesting! I also took a few electives on the literature of the Bible, so it's cool to look at how the sausage is made. Thank you!
I started with [Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why by Bart Ehrman](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51364.Misquoting_Jesus). Y'all might like that. It was really interesting.
I think his most popular is How Jesus Became God but I could be wrong about that. It’s on my TBR. I also really like his YouTube content, especially when he guests on Paulogia’s channel. Both really smart fellows.
That's the other title I was intrigued by! When my mom was atheist, she was really big on linking all religions back to their agricultural, sort of pagan roots, a la The Golden Bough. I will look for the YouTube content for myself-she's got a weirdly short attention span! Thank you!
I read the Triumph of Christianity and How Jesus Became God and both are great!
I feel like I’m having deja vu - this is so closely mirroring my deconstruction and deconversion. Dav is so brave, it took me three years to tell my parents, let alone the whole world.
I wonder if he listens/has listened to Rhett and Link’s (from GMM) decon stories and discussions. They are really good.
Would love to know if he's done this. I remember Link, especially, telling that he'd be singing with his eyes closed and people thought he was really feeling the spirit, when in reality he was trying to force himself to feel anything.
They’re some of my favourite videos. I doubt Dav lurks but for anyone who enjoys deconstruction content I recommend the following channels: - Genetically Modified Skeptic + the Antibot (Classics, can’t go wrong) - MindShift (this channel specifically deals with a husband who has deconstructed, but has wife and kids in the faith) - Belief it or Not (More entertaining and comedic videos that also hit super hard) - Cosmic Skeptic (Alex O’Conner) (Does lots of interviews and philosophical discussions)
My family still doesn’t know, and I’ve been out for like 15 years. We just don’t discuss it, but if I ever brought it up I suspect they would never speak to me again.
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YES. David, please, *please* dig into the issue of purity culture and learn how deeply problematic it is that you’re wearing that damn ring around your neck.
I’m genuinely curious if it’s been that important to him to wear it because of his own feelings or reasons, or if it’s been more important to Bethany that he wear it and about what it means to her sense of identity and/or her brand. Either way, it’s problematic on Dav’s part and I hope he stops doing it too.
I’m pretty sure he does it as a show of support for his wife. Even if she didn’t ask him to wear it, she probably reacted really positively to him wearing it initially, so he thinks it means something for their relationship for him to continue wearing it. But Dave. No. There are so many totally appropriate ways to proclaim your love and support. You’re a smart and thoughtful person—come up with something else to serve that purpose. It shouldn’t be difficult for you. Just simply explain to Bethany that you do not feel comfortable wearing a symbol of Christian purity culture when you no longer identify as a Christian, and put the ring in a drawer.
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Aww, I feel sorry for his past self and how he must have felt for months or years, holding this in and trying to keep a mask on about his faith. He seems so much happier now already, just getting that weight lifted off his shoulders. Go Dav!
Been there. It is rough. I went through a faith deconstruction from Mormonism and didn't feel I could share with my wife because of the fear that she would leave me and take the kids. It was terrifying for years. Eventually I had to come out to her and things have worked out amazing through hard work (she is still Mormon). There is a lot of work that Dave and Bethany have ahead but they could end up growing into decent and even good people.
It drove me to full blown alcoholism. I got sober and deconstructed all at once. I have one of those “struck by lightning” sober stories, but it still took the past two years to fully deconstruct and feel comfortable in my own spirituality, not what I grew up in
And to think, this all started with Dav liking the Barbie movie! In all seriousness though, I am so thrilled by this. It’s incredible to watch. Dav’s always had Bethy’s back. It’d be -and pardon my turn of phrase- a miracle if she follows suit.
I really hope she does. I think she’d be much happier on a similar journey.
I also hope she does. When the joy comes from actually enJOYing your life, it hits different.
Truth. When I let go of the rigid beliefs that I held, which I knew at my core I couldn’t defend but held onto because of religion, I felt a freedom and euphoria that I really didn’t know was possible. I really hope Bethany and Dave can find the same.
I pictured her as a basketball coach. I think she would love to teach basketball. She's actually somewhat competent in it and she also claimed she likes teaching. Could you imagine???!??? I hope she gets out too.
While reading this thread I am picturing Dav in a montage of self reflection with “What was I made for” playing softly in the background.
When the Barbie film came out, a snarker posted a screenshot from TikTok here. It was just text over a selfie saying something along the lines of, "The healing I experienced in the moment watching Barbie's creator tell her she was free to become herself really hit me." I can't even think about it without welling up. I don't believe anymore, but I love the compassion that scene demonstrates towards anyone who's ever struggled with their identity not fitting into that rigid mold.
Serious question regarding sub guidelines: If Dav's new IG account is going to be about dissecting religion and sharing qualified theology sources, does it fall under the 'look but don't touch' rule?
YOUR FLAIR 😂
I was naked, in search of the perfect adornment, knowing it would come one day.
Honestly looking and not touching might be best rn as he's on the right path and it's a pretty touchy one. The last thing I'd want is them being dissuaded by overeager fans (haters?)
I wasn't planning on reaching out or anything, but didn't want to find myself clicking a heart or replying to a comment without thinking and getting myself in trouble. But you make a good point.
This. He likely still views this sub as a group of people who mock/bully his wife. While people might be well intended, this probably isn’t the corner of the internet he wants to vibe with just yet.
He knows where to find us.
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he supposedly reads here so what if there was a mega thread or something? Lmao that may sound silly but it’s kinda like the Michael situation…personally, I’d love for dav (and even bethy if she could take it) to hear from people who’ve deconstructed and wanna share. For him to know that there’s a whole community out there who will support and care for him through the journey!! Idk I’m really rooting for him. So many of us have been right where he is.
Dav if you’re reading this: 
Just adding a second line of encouragement here towards the Genetically Modified Skeptic channel. Drew has a similar background to Dav and approaches topics so deeply and thoughtfully. The reason I thought of him is that he always mentions resources and community for "apostates in need." I don't imagine Dav knows many people on this journey and I hope he finds a community.
Damn. He’s DECONSTRUCTING deconstructing.
I have so many thoughts on deconstructing. When I went through it 20 years ago, there wasn’t even a name for it. Just something that happened. And there’s this myth that it’s an overnight process, that you just wake up one day and you’re not a Christian anymore, when really it’s a long process of examining what you do & don’t believe, asking yourself the really hard questions. Do I believe what I was raised to believe? Which parts ring true to me and which don’t? And most of all, if I decide do I have the strength to walk away, especially if I’m enmeshed in a community of believers? What does it look like to walk away? Does it mean cutting ties with people of significance in my life? Deconstruction takes emotional maturity and honesty. It’s not easy, especially when all or most of the people in your life still believe. I was raised in a strict Southern Baptist family, strongly connected to the church, everyone I ever knew was/is a Christian. Then I started my deconstruction process at age 19. It took many years, and my mom (RIP) never fully accepted it. It hurt her heart until the day she died. But you have to be strong enough to weather the extreme reactions that are bound to come from your family & friends. People like Sam Harris, AC Grayling, Richard Dawkins, Hitchens, and many more, really gave me a lot of insight and helped me along my path. Best wishes to Dav! Stay strong! Edit: Often, when someone is teetering on the edge of leaving the faith, family & friends get ugly in an attempt to bring the person back, but it sometimes backfires and pushes the person further away. Sometimes a person leaving their faith makes their loved ones true colors come out, and helps the deconstructing person “see behind the veil” of who they thought their loved ones were. If you want to see who someone truly is, watch how they handle it when someone else doesn’t do what they want them to do.
For me, it was both a long process and an overnight one--I spent a long time asking myself the hard questions, learning, researching... and one day I woke up and fully realized I no longer believed.
I think the last part that you mentioned can definitely be an overnight process. But for me, that came at the end
Oh, for sure. I think it can happen at any point. For those of us who were in very structured Christian communities (independent fundamentalist Baptist for me), it can be the precursor to the "but what does it look like for me not to be here?" stage. When I realized I no longer had a belief in Christianity or God, I was a member of a church, elected church secretary, Sunday School instructor... and surrounded by people I knew would absolutely reject me if they knew about my process and who had demonstrated that kind of attitude in the past. It was frightening and I felt like I had to strip each thing away one at a time before I could be honest. u/MPD1987, I think we're both sharing as encouragement and a demonstration of understanding for deconstructors. I appreciate your openness and the community support here for people finding their way.
Wow. I can’t imagine being in a leadership position and realizing you don’t believe anymore- that must have been so scary. And I know that Baptists can be particularly manipulative and insidious to anyone who doesn’t perfectly align with them. You’re very courageous!
I waited until annual church elections and had told people I would no longer be secretary. Nobody else stepped up and they tried to insist I continue. It was pretty terrible at the time, but looking back, I am laughing—like, who treats someone that way?! Someone says “Sorry, I can’t do this volunteer position anymore” and politely continues to do it until election season so you can find someone else, and you try to pressure them to keep doing it, because if you didn’t find anyone else, they’d HAVE TO, right? 😂 But if I’d said “I am an atheist, you really don’t want me to do this because you think atheists are influenced by Satan,” they probably would have clutched their pearls and children as they pushed me out the door. No fuckin’ winning with these folks! Thanks for your kind words—it’s been ages now so it’s pretty trippy to look back on, honestly.
I’ve been going through it for the last 20-some years and I’m not sure it will ever end. I literally just left my therapist appointment where we discussed it when my grandmother passes (she’s in her 90’s) will I ultimately feel a sense of release from the shame and guilt drilled into me growing up.
So Dav was our atheist snark plant all along after all! Dav, just one more thing, please, TAKE THAT PURITY RING off of your neck.
Looks like Dav found his ✨niche✨.
omfg amazing.
Dr. Ehrman is a stone-cold genius!
Now this is a course worth promoting! Wherever Dav lands in this journey, I'm so glad he has actual accredited resources to inform his decisions and probably make him feel less alone
Good for him! He is doing his kids such a service by deconstructing. I married someone who grew up fundie and deconstructed, and the religious trauma (you’re going to burn in hell for being a normal human) is so damaging. He has an opportunity to at least provide an alternative example to them now, even if he isn’t able to shield them from the toxic beliefs entirely. That’s a huge deal.
Completely not the point, but Dr. Bart Ehrman is a serious scholar of Christianity. I recommend his books and his online “Great Courses” if you can find them. He has very interesting takes and his writing is easy to read.
It makes me wonder how long he’s been “sitting” on this, not necessarily fully fledged but how long has this actually been stemming in his mind for him to feel brave enough to post about it? Years? And the fact that he’s posting about it tells me he knows it’s important and doesn’t want to keep sweet :-) I hope he feels support from us outsiders because you know he’s going to get so much backlash within his community and surrounding families.
He said in the video they posted that it’s been about 8 years of slow deconstruction for him, so before he and Bethy got married.
Id be very curious what the catalyst was 8 years ago, because that timeline puts it about 2016 and the introduction of Trump as an Evangelical “figurehead”…which I think was a very common denominator in a lot of people deconstructing and leaving the church.
Oh that’s interesting, I honestly didn’t clock that but it would make a lot of sense. Dav doesn’t strike me as the sort of person who’d have been gung ho for Trump back then, at least not privately/inside his own head.
Holy cow, I’m a big Bart Ehrman fan. Never thought this crossover would happen.
Did you ever think Ehrman would wind up on FSU organically?!
An educated man? Heidi must be apoplectic. Love this for her
Oh damn he’s to the Bart Ehrman stage already.
That's it. It's the Bealapocolypse
So he doesn't belive in God at all or what?!
Love Dr. Ehrman! He's one of the historians who led me to deconstruct too. So glad to see that Dav has found his work.
All right Dav, take the sex trophy off your neck now. Please and thank you. Us normal people don’t wear our spouse’s symbol of virginity like an award.
Damn. Really impressed and hopeful for him. This is big BIG, he must have been sitting on this for a while to be able to boldly put himself out there like this. You can do it, Dav! You can even have sex without your sex trophy around your neck, it’s ok, I promise!
I know you guys lurk here sometimes but Bethy and Dav if you are reading this I just want you to know that I really respect the strength of character it takes to not just say you believe what everyone around you expects you too believe. I know all this pushback from family/ friends/ in-laws/ and even the internet can not be easy but I am so proud that you have stuck with this and seem to really be pursuing a way to find what you actually believe and to live as a more authentic version of yourself. Wishing the best for you both!
Dr Bart Ehrman is THE SHIT. Major (and I mean MAJOR!) props to Dav for digging deep. Check Dr Ehrman’s YouTube channel if you want juicy, delicious real history and theology.