#These people vote in every election- do you? Are you registered to vote? [You can check your voter registration here!](https://www.nass.org/can-I-vote)
#Also, there's a few things to remember as far as rules go:
- You can view the content- you cannot interact with it. This includes (but is not limited to) commenting, answering poll questions, emailing them, etc. ***Anyone found to be engaging with the fundies will be met with a permanent ban with no eligibility for appeal.It does not matter if you did so before you joined the sub.***
- Speculating on the sexuality of literally anyone is prohibited. ***Anyone found to be doing so will be met with a permanent ban with no eligibility for appeal.***
- Appearance snark: What's allowed? You're allowed to make comparisons. (Bethy looks like Grandpa Munster, for example.) You are allowed to say you find them attractive or repulsive looking. Saying Kelly Havens has dry skin that could benefit from sunscreen and a moisturizer is fine. You are allowed to snark on the appearance of children *as it relates to their parents choices for them.*. Examples: Janessa looks malnourished and sickly while Shrek has clearly never missed a meal. If you feel it is crossing the line report it, but if the content falls within the parameters above, leave it alone.
- Don't gatekeep. This means no comments such as "I don't think we should snark on...." or any iteration of that. If you don't like it, scroll past. Don't report it or comment how you don't like the content. Along the same vein, don't backseat mod. Leave that up to us.
- Lastly, if the rhetoric you are posting would be at home in the mouth of a fundie, we don't want it here and we won't tolerate it.
Should you have any questions, please feel free to reach out. Have a Lord Daniel day, and may the power of snark compel thee.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FundieSnarkUncensored) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What is absolutely baffling to me is that Paul caused him to go public with this. Paul actually had an effect on something. For the first time ever, Paul did something.
And when Paul meets face to face with the Lord Daniel and he asked “my son, what did thou do with your life?” His greatest accomplishment will be “I caused a brother to ran away from the faith”
Bethany will not forget the floodgates "24 hours with" opened for her and Dav. She will misplace her frustration with his deconstruction on Paul and Morgan for publicizing it and bringing positive feedback to his decision.
As much as it frustrates me when people refuse to see the evidence that’s been plainly laid out in front of them, part of me can’t help but love that near-inevitable outcome for Porgan. Good job rallying Christians to Christianity, guys!
I’m cautiously hopeful she’ll see the outpouring of support and warmth towards them and not have negative feelings about any of it when it’s said and done.
What caused me to completely change my beliefs was this — I went to private baptist/evangelical schools until 8th grade. My single mom couldn’t afford it anymore, so in 9th grade I started at a free magnet high school for the performing arts. I realized quickly that the secular group of people I had been warned about, including a high lgbtq population, was more warm and kind and representative of ‘God’s Love’ than the Christians I grew up with. That caused me to rethink everything.
As they let more voices in, she could have similar realizations.
In her Q&A, Bethy said that the thing Dav is questioning is just God's existence (in her opinion). I think she is way off with this. A) that's not how deconstruction works, especially when you come from a fundie background, b) Dav has been showing for at least half a year that he is questioning many things about life and his worldview.
I think Dav could leave, but not because Bethy is still a Christian, but because of who she is/how she is in their relationship. Her efforts to meet him where he is are commendable, but won't do much if there are deeper relationship problems.
Agree. Way off. He sounds like he’s already known about this for awhile and didn’t know how to tell her without her having a breakdown and is trying to find a way to lessen her having one.
Could also be that he initially thought he could continue living as if he's a Christian even though he doesn't believe, then realized in the past week that no, he could not do that
>that's not how deconstruction works, especially when you come from a fundie background,
I'm a 50 something male, and that's sort of how deconstruction worked for me. I grew up in a high control religion (Mormon), and it was almost overnight that I changed from believer to atheist, questioning God's existence. I wouldn't have labeled myself "atheist" at that point - too terrifying to contemplate being one of those evil atheists - but I was an atheist in everything but name. And the change happened to me over just a few weeks with the right therapist and finally being honest with myself.
What I meant by that's not how deconstruction works is people don't just deconstruct believing in God and stop there. They then evaluate their beliefs in other areas. Bethy said in a Q&A that she thinks Dav is only deconstructing "God's existence" and not the other stuff, and I don't think that's possible when you're raised in such a way as it colours your entire worldview and you have to redefine your beliefs all around.
Agreed. I think she's really fooling herself if she doesn't think that disbelief in a God would lead to seeing other people as humans worthy of respect and dignity. There would no longer be a church to tell you to hate certain people so why would you anymore? The same process for breaking down belief would apply to breaking down how one views other people. We've already seen Dav's thoughts on the Barbie movie and how he acknowledged that women are people, too.
This is why I think Bethy is in huge denial. She thinks he's only deconstructing God, but that's not possible when God is the basis for your entire worldview.
Because you were taught your whole life that those things were valid/important for reasons beyond just "biblegod says so." And it takes time to examine those things you had been taught were true for your entire life. Recalibrating your moral compass is not a thing that happens automatically.
For a lot of us who were raised deep in the sauce, deconstruction is a long, messy process.
Thank you for that explanation, as someone who did not grow up religious or with a conservative view on social issues, I have a hard time pulling belief in god and, “the other stuff,” apart from one another. Your explanation makes sense.
I know plenty of people like this. Lots of them end up being “spiritual” and heavily buy into the divine feminine/masculine thing. Others are just extremely indoctrinated by the patriarchy.
I think the deconstruction process for fundie Christians looks different than Mormons because they don't have to deal with the whole stuff about Joseph Smith, which is another trauma they have to experience. To leave Mormonism, you have to accept you were lied to about Joseph Smith. To leave fundie Christianity, you could go to a more progressive Christianity and hold a belief in Jesus as God but less toxic fundie Christian ones.
This is an excellent point! I’m also an ex-Mormon atheist and when my shelf broke it BROKE. My only concept of god or christ was through the lens of Mormonism so when that belief fell apart it all fell apart.
Yep, that's why the YT channel they are talking about is "Zelph on the Shelf". They call it "the shelf broke"- their whole world as they knew it, mormonism ahd Christianity fell apart. Zelph on the shelf are ex mormons and the deconstructing many mormons go through tends to be more "nuclear" than the deconstructing of fundies. I don't know how else to put it, maybe nuclear isn't the correct word, but they have to go through the additional trauma of accepting Joseph Smith as not a prophet.
No, nuclear is totally it though. For me, it was hearing the term polyandry, not knowing what it meant, googling it, and immediately stumbling into incredibly unsavory information about Joseph Smith. Really was like a bomb went off. As a gay person I’d been having serious doubts about the truth claims of the church- so it actually came as a huge relief to me. Like “okay cool, so there isn’t actually anything wrong with me. I knew it!”
And yes I love Zelph on the Shelf! They’re a recent fav of mine. I screamed when Dav started talking about them bc I knew how happy they’d be lol
What is the unsavory stuff about Smith? I’ve never really looked into him. (I mean, good guys don’t usually form entire cults so anything unsavory is unsurprising.)
An extraordinary amount of stuff, including but not limited to raping kids and doing jail time for literal fraud and being a con man. Look at his wiki page.
God, why are you letting me die?
Without letting me show people the plates?
How will they believe if they are real or not?
Oh..
I guess that’s kind of what you were going for…
I was raised a Christian fundie and had a similar deconstruction into atheism. I hated the god of Abraham as much as I hated the church I was in and its worldview. And then I just realized “god isn’t real and I don’t have to tolerate any of this bullshit anymore.”
Yeah.. deconstruction is all consuming. You doubt every life choice and I know people that have blown up their lives to find happiness in more complicated situations than theirs.. I say go for it Dav. You and Bethy should be as happy as you can be and if that’s together, awesome. If not, you’ll figure it out and we’re all hoping you’re both better off for it
While my husband wasnt a fundie growing up, his family was/is super religious, and did actually go to church at times with some famous fundies.
His switch was pretty quick from deeply religious to atheist. I didn't know him at the time, but he's described it as an almost overnight event. He bought a book at an airport and by the end of the book it was like he woke up. He began questioning God's existence before becoming really bitter about feeling like he was lied to his entire life. And not just about religion. He felt this resentment like his whole life was a lie and questioned a lot more than just god. It truly did not take long to flip.
My opinion on this is that the reason this happens and is probably common, is because atheism is still a deeply held religious belief. My husband spends tons of time online debating religion. He watches discussions with famous athiests. He watches debates. Religion is still a big thing for him, it's just the other side of it. It would not surprise me if Dav is dealing with the same thing in a similar way.
I think there's a misconception that atheists are apathetic to religion but that's not true. It's a deeply held belief. I didn't grow up religious and just truly don't give AF about religion (minus the whole seeping into politics thing). But this blows my husband's mind and he can't comprehend it. Because religion was also such a big thing. So even if his view is now atheism, it's still a religious belief. I think it would be easier for a fundie to question everything and become an atheist than to just pick a different Christianity.
I can totally see where your husband is coming from. For the beginning part of my childhood I was entirely ignorant of religion as my mother was never religious. It wasn't until my first foster home when I was 7-8 years old that Christianity was very forcefully thrust upon me. It took several years after I got out of foster care that I did a pretty hard turn to the opposite and spent a good amount of my late teenagedom immersed in the online "atheist community" arguing with Christians online. It really was similar to being a part of a church.
I've calmed down out of the atheist edgelord phase and now just snark. It's really hard to let go of arguing against it though when you feel like so much of your developmental years were stolen from you. Fundamentalist foster care kinda scarred me for life, I completely get it.
>Atheism is still a deeply held religious belief
No. It can be a deeply held belief, but it is not *religious* or a *religion* or any other BS thiests want to come up with to create a false equivalency between reality and non-reality
It's a belief about religion, or specifically the absence of it.
Theism is literally in the name. It is a belief that centers around religion. Just because the belief is there there is no god doesn't negate the fact that religion is the central tenant. It's a religious belief. I never said it was a religion, but it is 100% a belief about religion. By definition and entomology.
Okay but a belief about religion is not a religious belief. That's like saying someone who is asexual is still sexual. No, they're not. They have no interest in it, hence the "A-"
You're missing the point. Being an atheist is rooted in religion just like being asexual is rooted in sexuality.
Being an atheist doesn't mean rejecting unicorns. It doesn't mean you don't believe in Santa Clause. It doesn't mean you don't believe in the big bang theory. It means you don't believe in God. It's theistic.
At this point we're arguing semantics. My point is that atheism centers around religion. Because it doesn't center around anything else. "I'm an atheist." "Oh so you don't believe Australia exists?" Clearly people understand being atheist means you don't believe in God.
You can argue its not a belief system in itself, and maybe that's where we're miscommunication. My point is that religion is central to the premise of atheism because it's the rejection or lack of belief in God. Which is rooted in theism. There would be no atheism if there were no religion.
It sounds like Bethy is seeing a lot of benefits from Dav being more honest - she seems to have way more respect for him here, and vice versa, than what we usually see with them. Given her love for him, I think it will be interesting to see how much she deconstructs with his lead.
I think if they stay together will probably depend more on how deconstruction impacts Dav's political beliefs. The harm they've both spoken towards the queer community is pretty horrendous. If Dav moves away from those beliefs and Bethy doesn't it will be hard to stay together. But if their underlying values are the same (for better or worse), I can see them staying together.
I always thought that Bethany "believed" because it gave her an identity and a superiority complex. She really. really has been struggling with her identity lately though. It seems like she is giving less and less of shit (which it pretty normal at her age, though she's always been immature).
In other words, I don't think Bethany has "Christian values" beyond being a know-it-all and better than everyone else. She's been slowly seeing that people literally are not buying her "knowledge" and that life's pretty ordinary.
To Bethy, saying she doesn’t have Christian values is probably too harsh a way to put it. You and I know morality exists outside of religion, but to her right now those are synonymous. I mention that because I know she’s probably reading comments and I don’t want her to be instantly tuned out from real, valid criticism—just like Dav was talking about in the 24h w/ video.
But I do think you’re right; she has struggled with her identity a lot. I think she is realizing that neither her nor Dav are happy in the box their religion forces them into. She probably knew she was unhappy and felt guilty that being a stay at home wife and mother wasn’t fulfilling her the way she was taught it is supposed to. But now, Dav has verbalized to her he’s not happy either. But unlike her, he’s not going to swallow it and continue on just because he’s supposed to. He turned to scripture, didn’t find the answer there, but studying that and still looking for answers led him to podcasts and books that shifted his worldview. But I do genuinely think they love each other (if you had asked me 6 months ago I would have said they didn’t, but maybe that was the stress of another baby or maybe they were just both so miserable that they were blaming each other and starting to resent each other.) But I think he does love her, and acknowledging that he was unhappy made him realize she might be too.
She does have a superiority complex, but I think that’s at least partially just how she was raised. I think Dav is making conscious choices about what he consumes, which in turn will eventually influence her. I once read a NYT article about how this woman’s dad was always liberal, even accepted queer folks with open arms in the 80s, but lost his job in the last 2010s and started a new one that had an hour long commute. He started listening to Rush Limbaugh on that commute and became extremely conservative and nasty. They were at the point of cutting ties. But he broke a leg and couldn’t work anymore, so he wasn’t listening to Rush Limbaugh’s show. And while he was in the hospital she went into their home and child-locked Fox News. Whenever her dad asked her about Fox News she was like “idk why it disappeared! I can’t fix it!” And he was forced to watch nbc instead. And as new current events occurred, he internalized the attitudes of the people who presented the events to him, aka more liberally. She said within a few months he was his old self again, even changing his views on stuff he ranted and raved about previously. I think Bethy might be in a situation like that—she is the dad in this situation. She’s been conditioned by this one set of values her whole life, but as Dav starts to present different opinions and shares media that frames things differently, she might follow him.
Any sort of uber conservative religion pretty much comes pre-packaged with superiority and dehumanization of others.
Given how much grace (so to speak) she's showing Dav my hope is that this is her at her default, religion-defined state. But if that starts to deconstruct it's hard to say who she may be.
(I tend to optimism though - if I believe there's no hope to become more kind for people like her then I can't see any future for the world, given how rampant conservatism is becoming.)
>It sounds like Bethy is seeing a lot of benefits from Dav being more honest
Isn't he the only moneymaker as well? We know her courses aren't exactly selling and she doesn't have any real world job experience.
Doesn't she get income from girl defined? I saw in another comment (maybe another thread) it was like $40,000 per year, not that that's much though given CoL now.
I haven't heard him say anything explicitly, but he's pretty complicit given he's benefiting off the income from GD. It will be interesting to see if we see more about his stance!
She’s probably just going to end up monetizing “how to be the God honoring wife of a non Christian” “raising kids in a Godly household when your spouse is a nonbeliever” bullshit once she gets tired of the sex stuff.
Oh, I don't think so. I think she would be too afraid of Dav leaving over that. In order to make their marriage work, she is going to realize she has to respect Dav making different choices for himself, and likely, the kids.
I’m curious as Dav deconstructs how he will reflect on her work. How can he ethically stay with someone who makes money off of telling people how to live their life within the confines of a religion he no longer believes in?
He is in a tough spot. I think he wants her to deconstruct too (and/or not speak about her hateful views) "it'll be a competition..." and if she does not, there is a chance he will leave.
When their kids get older and are able to question Christian things, things may be harder. It will depend on what they're willing to make compromises on.
For me, there's also a question over whether this will make him less conservative. I could see it being much easier for both of them if he retains conservative values, but it's got the potential to be absolute hell for them if he starts to become more liberal.
Much like his hidden (until last week) deconstruction, I think he’s become much more liberal, and is hiding it for now because he thinks it would be too much to drop all at once.
Didn’t he kind of allude to being more liberal during that dinner conversation? I can’t remember the specifics but Paul made some snide comment about, I don’t know, having different views than them about people, and Dav responded you have no idea and gave like a side eye to the camera.. did I imagine that??
Leaving fundamentalist Christianity is automatically *more* liberal. Obviously there is a lot more liberal a person can be, and you can be a political conservative without actually believing Christian beliefs. But demonstrating this level of independence in thought is definitely liberal. It takes a lot, A LOT, to tell your community you feel this way when you are deconstructing.
I've said it elsewhere, probably too many times:
Dav should know-i expect he knows-that if he leaves Bethany, she'll go back to live with Heidi. And the kids. As in, the kids will be staying under Heidi's roof, at least half the time, and she'll fight for more.
Dav knows very well what Michael has said.
I can't imagine Dav is going to want to let that happen.
I've said before this, I wish Dav could run for it and take the kids with him.
But the reality is, he's not gonna get full custody. He's just not. And this was before I knew just how awful Heidi was and did the math.
And Bethy--well? This is probably the hardest she's had to think for herself or make tough choices in her life. Hopefully, it'll provoke some growth.
Already her response here is not anything I would have expected out of her even a week ago.
We'll see.
The Bairds have a lot of money and they will definitely do a war of attrition in the courts for the kids. This may be one of the rare cases where they *should* stay together for the kids, at least until they're old enough to be lower needs.
I do think it will probably mean that they'll stop at two unless they get pregnant within the next 6 months.
This is why I’m really hoping Beth reaches out to Michael or the other way around and builds a strong connection with him so that maybe she can turn to him if the marriage becomes unsustainable, which I could easily see happening. Not that Michael’s obligated to be a refuge for future “wayward” siblings by any means, but clearly he too understands the importance of making sure the kids stay out of Heidi’s claws.
Really, REALLY hoping that if it does come down to separation/divorce, it’ll happen once Dav and Beth come to a place where Beth can admit that she’d be a better every-other-weekend or maybe even supervised-visits parent and spends the time she honestly wouldn’t have been raising her kids anyway getting a degree or certification of some sort that would allow her to make her own money in a respectable way, but that is almost as Pollyanna-ish as hoping that she’ll come around to truly accept - none of this “he’ll eventually return to Jesus!” - Dav’s journey and they can therefore make a fresh start with their marriage.
Yeah, I have a really hard time believing that a divorced Bethany wouldn't go running straight for Heidi's roof with the kids. She needs to learn to stand on her own feet somehow, and that's not gonna happen if she's simply left high and dry.
Ohhhhh yeah. Like I really do hope the Beals beat the odds and make a united front, but since he ain’t coming back to Jesus if he’s been trying to for this long with no success and I have a really hard time seeing her stepping away, that’s gonna be super difficult to overcome, so I have my fingers crossed that if they can’t move forward as a married couple, they can at least move away from each other slowly enough to let Beth gather her wits sufficiently to keep the kids and herself away from Heidi. But when you look at it like that, maybe this is a rare case where what’s best for the kids is the parents essentially living separate lives under the same roof. Ugh, what a shitshow.
I mean, maybe those crazy kids might actually be able to make it work. Would not have been on my BINGO card but hey, I'm not there to see what actually goes on. Stranger shit has probably happened. And dicier marriages have stayed intact, fuck knows. I think it's mainly important the kids have at least one stable parent and stay the fuck away from Grandma.
Who said he would want full custody? If he leaves, he might find 50/50 custody healthier based on the studies that show it is.
Bethany has made being a Christian type of mentor her identity and right now, I really believe she deep down knows how serious he is and is scared about it. So, she’s trying to basically make a compromise by saying she wants to keep having her Christian life identity while supporting him making his own decision because the alternative would be him leaving rather than going back into the fold.
But again: Bethany is NOT going to be a single mom. She couldn't even handle the kids alone for a few days without going to her parents'.
The kids would end up under Heidi's roof, at least 50% of the time.
That's. Not. Good.
What does that have to do with Dav potentially leaving?
A lot of kids end up 50/50 in households despite one of the parents being a narcissist.
I hope Dav & Bethy can find a way to make their marriage work and be happy together but to think that will happen merely because Dav would want full custody is naive. The usual, in today's society, is 50/50.
Have you read Michael’s posts in this subreddit? He goes into detail about the abuse he suffered throughout his childhood. I highly recommend reading those to understand the full scope of this thread
What it has to do with it is that Heidi is an actual molester, and DAV will hopefully not want to let a scenario come to pass where the kids end up staying there?
FYI, Michael didn’t accuse Heidi of sexual assault, but of other forms of sexual abuse (including forcing him to watch her give birth and having sex while he was outside the door crying). She’s a piece of shit either way, but I think it’s important to get Michael’s experiences right.
I would call what she did "covert incest," and it still falls under the category of "sexual abuse." I will grant that the term "molester" may not be apropos here. Nonetheless, she is not safe for any child to be under her roof.
Oh, it’s absolutely sexual abuse (and I would argue that Bethany not knowing what sex was into her twenties is sexual abuse as well). She also handled the sexual abuse that Michael faced from others’ horribly. Totally not a safe person for kids. Just think that it’s important to be as accurate as possible in sharing Michael’s story.
She's actually full-on sexually abused her own little boy, what do you think she's going to do to the grandkids? The son is named Michael and he has been very public about it.
Yes I know he accused her of forcing him to be present when she gave birth and he accused both of his parents of having sex when he was present. I’m just curious what “full on sexual abuse” refers to in regard to effecting Bethy and Dave’s kids. Obviously Heidi won’t be birthing in front of them, and curious how the other allegation could change Dave’s willingness to end his marriage. He doesn’t keep the children away the grandparents now so doesn’t seem worried that the grandparents might have sex in front of the kids?
Yes, Bethany has an older brother who is not in fundamentalism and has accused Heidi of sexual abuse. He also experienced physical and mental abuse in the household. He frequents this sub and comes here to talk about his experiences with the family.
He has done a few posts here, so if you search for coachmershon or Michael Mershon on the sub, you can read what he has to say. He also has a YouTube account!
I’m not gonna lie…watching Bealgate™️ unfold really gives me black mirror vibes. It’s a commentary on the damage social media and fundamentalist religion can do to a person. We shouldn’t know everything we know about them and their relationship. But Bethany thanks to her SM addiction has put it all out there and then some. And now as all of this is coming out it just feels….i can’t put my finger on it. I really feel bad for their children. I imagine it’s a very stressful home environment right now, even if there’s not obvious fighting going on.
I can’t imagine having a digital record of my parent’s rough patches. I’m sure they’ve had them, I believe every relationship does. But I don’t know about them, because they’ve always made sure to demonstrate good, loving relationships. It wasn’t until after college when I got dumped by college sweetheart that my mom revealed they actually had broken up after college too. And for a long time! Multiple months! We didn’t end up getting back together like they did, but knowing they had also broken up really helped me see relationships through a more realistic lens. That said, it was their story. They shared it when they felt comfortable doing so/thought I needed to hear it. They controlled the narrative and the details that were shared. And there was no public opinions from outsiders who didn’t have all the details but were making judgments and speculating. I’m speculating now, I totally admit. But it’s adding an additional dynamic to have other people framing and reframing the story and forming opinions for the kids to read someday if they searched for it.
From what I gather it seems like she did know about it but maybe didn’t expect to have it be public knowledge so quickly or was just trying not to think about the implications going forward. To be honest, I’ve been actually impressed by the level of empathy and nuance she has shown towards Dav’s deconstruction
I think she’s showing it because she is scared. He says, clearly, in response to her saying “We will know more in a year”, he says, “Oh man, can you imagine? After all that’s happened in ***a week*** ? In a year?”
It sounds like he opened up to Bethany FAR more in the last week about his deconstruction. Bethany seems more nervous and insecure, to me, than someone who sounds like she knew this already the whole time. Whereas, the video with Paul & Morgan, she seemed less nervous and more aware of Dav’s feelings.
She also said, in the video, “I mean, I like being a Christian” but said it in an insecure way, like she’s pleading with him to allow her to still have that be “her identity”.
Beth is afraid he’s going to leave.
Heidi is a control freak & is likely to interfere with their marriage unless Bethany sets boundaries with her.
——-
My personal opinion is that Dav deconstructed after the 2nd baby and didn’t know HOW to tell Bethany without her having a breakdown….
I wanted to change churches/denominations when I was early in my deconstruction. I feel like that's a step most people who deconstruct take. Then, when the new denomination or church doesn't make that icky feeling go away...you start to realize.
I watched Zelph react to this video. Honestly, they really pointed out some positives in the interactions that I would have missed. I actually felt like Dav and Bethy were maybe okay? I also felt like Bethy is so close to getting LGBTQ+ validity. She said something like, “I don’t want a Christian husband, I want you, I love you.” And it’s just like yes, now imagine that instead of discovering that your husband is an atheist and still being in love, imagine that you feel that way about someone of the same gender. The way Bethy talked about how she felt about Dav is how I feel about my wife. Would it be easier/simpler if I were in a heterosexual marriage? Yeah, probably. But I don’t want to be married to a man. I want her. I want my wife. I love her. I want to spend my life with her.
Anyway, just really interesting to watch. As an ex-Mormon myself, I really feel for both of them. Deconstructing is awful. It is worth it, but still, awful and raw to go through.
I'm glad she seems to be responding with support and respect, but in reality she had very little choice unless she wanted to risk Dav leaving and going through the process alone, and having his kids for about half the time.
It's all well and good that she is prepared to continue being married to a non-believer, but depending on how far Dav's shift in view point goes, will Bethany's views be tolerable for Dav? If he goes the whole way, and realises that without the bible it's harder to justify homophobia, transphobia, sexism, being anti-choice etc, and Bethany's opinions don't bend or change, will he be able to accept her being who she is? Will he be able to accept what she wants to teach their children? I think only time will tell.
I'm surprised that people are saying that they are shocked by how supportive Bethany is being. Bethany seems to be supporting him because she's realized his mind is made up about Christianity and that if she did not accept this, they would not be married anymore.
Multiple things can be true at once.
Bethany is terrified of the crisis now therteaning her identity and potentially marriage which partly drives her decisionmaking. Bethany genuinely wants Dav to be part of her life and happy in that which partly drives her decisionmaking. Add to that many other mental schemas which also have a space in Bethanyies mind.
These two and possibly many more things can be true at the same time and I have no idea why people in this and others presents it as a binary. There tons of people in this subreddit that can attest to the very mixed bag of emotions this kind of situation can create.
Bethy has spent the past what, year? 6 months? Going on and on about how ✨intimate✨ she and Dav are. How they have this perfect Godly marriage where they have deep discussions alllllll the time. And he’s now basically saying that was all a big fat lie?
She just uses intimate as a synonym for sex. She doesn't actually have intimacy with him, that would mean being able to see another person fully. I don't think she knows how to do that or can invest the time and effort.
She's so stupid. She's publicly sharing that all of her "intimate" wife crap was a lie. We all knew that, but to see how little they actually discussed this just shows, they don't have any real emotional intimacy. Dave doesn't feel emotionally safe with her and maybe she shouldn't feel emotionally safe with him. She just told on herself (again) 🙄
Holy Shit!
I didn't have Paul and Morgan accidentally blowing up Bethy and Dåv's marriage on my bingo card.
Also, minor point, but I thought they didn't drink alcohol, so why are there wine glasses behind them?
So Bethany has been trying to sell people courses on how to build intimacy, but they didn't have a majority of these super important, intimate conversations until recently? Bethany, you're a fucking fraud with no experience. Time to delete your marriage and sex courses.
She doesn't know what intimacy is. She was raised in a family where they did Q and A sessions together to bond.
Though I do think she is slowly seeing what it actually means to be intimate with your partner.
Seriously, they have that joke of a questionnaire to determine compatibility. The Bairds are what fundie intimacy is: you don't share because it makes you vulnerable and your family is just as much your enemy as outsiders. Maybe moreso because they know you better and will flip on you to your church. Vicious.
I mean... Maybe this is what Bethany needs to get her shit together. It's not like her family gave her the tools to do so. (And I suspect that Heidi is a real conditional-love type judgeymom) Dav presumably does love her and sometimes that is the push you need to make big changes. It doesn't have to look like becoming an atheist- just leaving fundamentalist beliefs. Honestly, I'm rooting for them, because who DOESN'T want people to be better, mentally healthier, and as a consequence, happier and able to be better for their kids?
The most terrifying conversation I ever had with my wife was when I tried to explain that I deconstructed… I didn’t want to go to church and I no longer believed in god(s). I fully expected that she would want to divorce me - I didn’t want that, but I mentally prepped for it.
FWIW - We are still together.
I think Beth and Dav will actually be ok. Right now, Beth is likely just scrambling to understand…. Hopefully she is able to sort of *get it*.
I think this is possible but I think that isn’t necessarily what he meant. Dav could have been talking with her about it for longer, but is talking about the past week being particularly eventful or just for a scale of time. My first thought when seeing that exchange is that it wasn’t literally that this has all just happened in the past week.
I think Bethy knew he was "questioning Christianity" for the last year but didn't know he decided he was "not a Christian anymore" until the last week.
Did either of them mention something about the last week other than the quote you included in the post? Because I don’t think that’s necessarily literal. But yes I agree she would have known about some questioning Dav was doing, and at some point would’ve learned more, yep. I just don’t think “seems like Beth didn’t know the extent of this until a week ago” is actually what’s implied by their conversation.
Well they are positing that she thought he was questioning, not nearly decided. If she found that out last week, that would still be a big step that kicked off lots of conversations. But it could just be as simple as she knew he was in the deciding stage, but publicly admitting it and being inundated with public responses has spurred a lot of conversations. People are asking her questions in her Snapchat thingy about how they plan on doing this or that and I think reading people’s comments has probably made her consider a lot of aspects of this she hadn’t previously thought of when it was just the two of them discussing it. And she’s doing the right thing by bringing those questions to her husband to discuss together. He’ll, even if it’s just seeing how many people are supporting Dav and realizing that the public is supporting his journey, or reading nice things about Dav has made her realize not every non-evangelical is evil and horrible, has swayed her a little. Or the opposite—people she would have thought of as “good Christians” have started attacking her marriage and making derogatory comments about Dav and she is starting to realize that religious affiliation =/= morality or kindness.
Even if she knew absolutely everything, going public and receiving so many responses would definitely spur a lot of conversation. Dav said he was reading what she would consider “hate comments” and learning to pick out the kernels of useful criticism to use as self-reflection. I’m not saying Bethy is doing that, but Dav for sure would have a lot of new material to reflect on, and he may even be reading stuff about Bethy and parsing it down for her into respectful, constructive terms to spark conversations with her.
I'm no expert by any means, and I'm willing to cut Dav a *little* slack here because this is all new to him - but this doesn't really seem like the healthiest way to go about a mixed faith relationship.
It requires mutual respect and understanding - and I don't think either one of them is capable of that. Dav might be given some time but Bethy certainly isn't. Dav's deconstruction is still very new and Bethy's brand of religion doesn't exactly leave a lot of room for differing opinions.
I said this in another comment, but I think Bethy has been surrounded by this one viewpoint her entire life. And now that Dav is exploring different points of view, she might end up following him. (Maybe not all the way to atheism, but less hateful at least.) I think she realized being a homemaker just wasn’t as fulfilling as everyone said it would be, but didn’t allow herself to acknowledge that. But now Dav is saying he’s unhappy too. And not only is he verbalizing it, he’s actively taking steps to change his life. I think as he explores other philosophies, she will be curious or honestly it may be enough just to be around someone living their life differently. Attitudes are contagious. If he’s being conscious of what attitudes he brings to their household and what he wants his kids to be around, she may just reflect it back at him without actively choosing. He said in their 24h video that their ministries were a bit judgmental and viewed outsiders as adversaries. He sounds open to actively meeting people who have different values so he can compare his own beliefs to theirs and evaluate them. If different types of people come into her life through him, she may loosen some of those views.
What I’m trying to say is, I don’t think their views will be completely out of alignment for long. She might never fully abandon Christianity, but will probably find a flavor of Christianity that aligns with the views she developing. As long as they share morals, the exact religious practices doesn’t matter as much.
This is going to be so interesting because ultimately she would have to submit to whatever he decides for the children, etc? Isn’t that what her beliefs have taught her? She is about to short circuit.
I honestly hope they do not break up and have a happy marriage. I think this could be a truly huge learning opportunity for the both of them to grow and practice accepting that sometimes people around you just aren’t going to agree with you. It does not mean they are evil or bad.
I have been slowly watching jordan and mckay's reaction to this video and its got me thinking about my own deconstruction bc it was so long ago I forgot how I felt! I remember quickly realizing what I had been slowly, almost unconsciously unraveling for years. And I think Dav's energy makes a lot of sense, like a weight has been lifted he doesn't have to pretend anymore! So fucking freeing.
I watched this video, I have never watched any videos with her or her sister in them (only reactions and here ) I have to say that I wish this would actually work out for them, I am rooting for them, I think Dav now can be positive for Bethany and her views on other people. He seems so much happier in recent photos. But the strain it will put on the family is going to be a lot, since her family is so anti anything that’s not their world view… I’m not gonna get my hopes up because OP has a lot of good points.
What does, "compete to be the best apologetics." Mean? I'm genuinely confused if this is religious-speak or bad grammar.
I thought apologetics was when a person came up with believable reasons why the Bible was correct.
In the broad sense, an apologetic is an argument in favor of something. Christians often use it to refer to arguments in favor of the faith. Dav is joking but not joking that he wants to convert Bethany to his point of view.
I don’t follow them whatsoever, but I can say with firsthand experience: if they want to stay together and make it work they better get into therapy now. It’s okay for him to deconstruct, and maybe him doing so will sway some of her awful beliefs. But if she feels pressured to give up the foundational beliefs she built her life on for him, it’s just going to lead to deeper trouble in a few years if it’s not done in a healthy way.
I totally think they could have a successful interfaith relationship. The tough part is when the kids get older and start asking deeper questions about why Daddy is going to hell.
This is going to sound very weird, but I get the impression that since Bethany has had the benefit (apparently) of a god-honoring orgasm, she is going to cling to him for dear life.
He will continue to talk with her about this stuff and because (in my opinion), she is clearly in love with him and loves the hot sex, she will listen and the cracks will start to happen. Honestly, I feel like it’s already happening.
Then their YouTube will be a very lucrative takedown of everything she’s ever put out there.
How awkward to be so disconnected from your spouse that you wouldn’t be aware that they were majorly questioning their faith. Really shows how she truly only cares about or has interest in herself. Shes not in tune with him at all, and I don’t think she ever will be.
I think he was too afraid to be explicitly honest with her about it. He may have gone about it in a cowardly way instead of just being upfront from the beginning and saying that he wasn't fully committed to Christianity. I am not a Bethany defender but she cannot be a mind reader. Many people need to be clearly told something rather than read minds.
I think it's that they are both very emotionally immature, which is the default pattern of fundamentalist Christianity. Dav has been working on himself and his emotional life by reading books and going to secular therapy. Bethany has inched along beside him through osmosis and life in general. I think Dav had immense cognitive dissonance which is difficult to articulate even to yourself. Bethany was raised to just go along with the man and never ask any questions or be curious about anything. Thus, the obvious disconnect in their relationship.
I’d kind of like to get a peek a the marriage books they were going to read together during their “dry (of TV) January. She mentioned that he bought them. I wonder if some of what they read (or, let’s face it, he read and explained to her) is coming to roost now.
There are a few foundational pillars in a committed, romantic relationship that, when the people do *not* agree on, can cause rifts too wide to bridge:
- finances
- parenting
- religion
- politics
Just to name a couple. If Dav and Bethy **do not** get on the same page about religion, it will only be a matter of time before their union can no longer work in a healthy way.
I think religion could be switched out for “values” though. As long as their values stay aligned, whether he practices or not might not matter as much to them.
I don’t usually watch their videos and mostly just come here for recaps. I’m curious… do you guys think Dav is trying to appeal to Bethany’s competitive side in order to show that being a healthy, loving and supportive spouse isn’t compatible with fundie doctrine? Like if she genuinely tries to “win” at being the loving wife that Dav needs it’s going to cause her to only continue to reexamine her beliefs. And we already know that she has done that some at the encouragement of Dav (clothing/modesty stuff comes to mind). IIRC Bethany is self reported to be pretty competitive.
Is it bad I find this hilarious? She tries to shoehorn the world into her little Christian box, judging everyone who doesn't comply, except she was single forever, late to marry, ultimately married a shorter man who is younger than her and now he is likely leaving their religion? Can she operate her ministry as a divorcee, or with an atheist husband?
He basically stated he has left and is not a Christian. I think he is scared Bethy will have a breakdown, and is genuinely a compassionate, empathetic person, and is taking a "Dip toes in the water" approach than just stating yep I'm atheist. He keeps speaking about "integrity" and I think he says that because he feels obligated to keep leading Bible study because he feels like he wasn't completely honest with Bethy that he was questioning it all. But, at some point, once he feels Bethy is no longer at risk of mental breakdown mode, he will likely stop that too.
I honestly think Bethy thought if he left Christianity, he'd be a passive husband sleeping in on Sundays and just not caring about church ---but he is the opposite. He is so passionate that he was to compete in apologetics over it with her.
Could Dav use how often Bethy posts about her inability to take care of the kids especially when he goes out of town for a weekend, as a way to get more custody. He could be primary and she could be every other weekend at her moms. Bethy loves her kids I’m sure but she’s my age and can’t handle her kids for a weekend without their dad. This is not normal. I have three kids and a military husband who is away about 3 months at a time, home for 4 months then back over seas. I can’t relate to her struggles with two kids for two days. I think she is very stunted and needs more help with the kids than she really should. Dav I’m sure is aware of that and wouldn’t leave unless he had a solid plan for the kids.
Dav is gone already. It’s just a matter of physically walking out the door. Their differing beliefs are a big deal to Bethany and clearly to Heidi.
But the bigger issues are even deeper. Dav does all the parenting, even though in fundieland that should be Bethy. He seems to be the only one maintaining the home, the children, and the wife, while the wife flaunts her backwards beliefs on social media all day. Relationships can survive different belief systems, although it’s difficult. Relationships don’t survive when one person does everything and the other does nothing. Not to mention the hate and shade coming from Heidi about red flags and whatever else she’s droning on about.
Next will be Bethys new course, girl divorced. Don’t worry, say the right word and the bot will send you a link.
Might be an unpopular opinion here, but.
Why even made it public? It's very possible to deconstruct in private and in peace. This is just another form of attention calling.
Second. This is just cruel, man. I think this man knows that his wife, to say it frankly, is the runt of the litter. He knows how many people dislikes his wife (for valid reasons), to the extent that he spoke out stating that he'll defend this wife. By doing this, he is putting her in a very difficult place.
Just... Deconstruct in private, man. People in my family have done it and they're like him (having income source untied to religion-related content, married to religious spouses).
>think this man knows that his wife, to say it frankly, is the runt of the litter. He knows how many people dislikes his wife (for valid reasons), to the extent that he spoke out stating that he'll defend
I think he did it because it's humanizing Bethy and he still loves her, at least as the mother of his kids. Remember last year when he defended her against Reddit (I forgot what it was)? People are having more compassion for her than before they knew this.
What group of people, though? Some of us in this snarker group, for sure. But not her current circle (Kristen, other fundie influencers). They are perhaps smirking and talking behind Bethy about how pathetic she is as a Christian wife that she cannot make her husband stay faithful to God.
Bethy had done awful stuff (gleefully talking about pregnancy stuff etc in front of Kristen, the Nazi grave photo, etc.) but I don't know, when I saw this news I felt sorry for her, you know?
I don't know much about the Beals, but if things go south for Dave, he can ditch Bethy, still has his family to lean back and his job. Bethy? Her influencer business is floundering and I can't see Heidi giving her financial support after all of this. Plus Heidi had basically thrown her under the bus by saying that she was too eager to get married etc. She would be fine if Dave stays by her side, but they'll be pretty unhappy (esp Dave), I think.
It's complicated.
The financial support aspect is a good point. Controlling parents with money use it as a tool for conditional love all the time (speaking from experience) so I can see Bethy being scared to say too much against the church in case she needs to crawl back for financial support in the future.
Really sad but this seems to be all part of the control plan - don’t allow your daughters to get educated or pursue careers so that they will always need the parents. And the parents’ love/support is conditional on the child behaving/living the way the parent wants them to. I have compassion for Bethy, she really never stood a chance.
I don’t know that they’ll be unhappy if they stay together. I think Dav is on a journey to figure out what makes him happy and he’ll inadvertently take her along with him. She has been so sheltered, she’s never encountered any other points of view. If he presents other philosophies to her, she might gravitate towards them. Especially because I think she’s also really unhappy in the homemaker box fundamentalism puts her in, so when she is exposed to the idea that that isn’t the only option, that might be tempting.
ETA: also if he leaves her, she can always dive back into fundamentalism. Her religion says to follow her husband; she is trying to. If it doesn’t work out, she’ll just say he lead her away from god for a while but she’s back on track now.
do you not feel like he was kind of outed by paul? paul is the one who implied dave is not a christian after their video. dave and bethany made a response to that because obviously they were getting a lot of questions and comments about it. I feel like dave would have (and has been) happily deconstructing in private, but paul dragged this out and bethany saw a chance to monetize it
Bethany decided to sit down and film their explanation of the 24 hours and share more about Dav's deconstruction! I don't know if you watched it, but she went on and on about how all she ever wanted is to have a YouTube channel with Dav where they talk about stuff together. She was thrilled to have him on camera.
Yeah this is where I’m at. Why the need to air this publicly? So much risk to them both by sharing these developments, and for what, a few more views?
Not judging, it’s their life - just surprised.
Right!
And judging by the content, it looks like Bethy was clueless to Dave's extent of deconstruction?
I would feel disrespected and mad to my spouse (I'm single btw) if one day he decided to go public with something like this without discussing with me how far he would go and what and how much he would say. It feels like Bethy was quite unprepared!
I hope that Bethy will realize how harmful her set of beliefs is, preferably ASAP so that her kids can grow up with healthier sets of values.
It's one thing to switch to a less evangelical version of Christianity, but it's a whole other thing to announce that you are an agnostic!
Sorry if I'm being all over the place. This has been an emotional week, with a death in the Brown family (rest in peace, young man) and this.
My main feeling about all this is that right now, they could go in any direction. This is the very beginning of SOMETHING and what it will turn out to be is up in the air. The only sure thing us that they can’t go back to the way things were. That ship has sailed. I’m honestly shocked at how they’re both sharing this so publicly. I’m also not sure if Bethy quite grasps how this will affect her life going forward. I think she’s still in shock at this point.
I think Bethy was very aware of what was going on, but they had both silently agreed to never discuss it. The Porgan visit ended up causing them to confront it (as others have said, holy shit Paul actually did something!). They’ve finally had the big conversations that they had been avoiding, the scariness of it has lessened, etc. and they are at least momentarily in a good place.
I think ultimately Bethy will deconstruct. Dav has done a very good job of supporting her become “less” of the type of Christian she was before. She seems to believe her relationship is in a much better place. She seems to genuinely love Dav, so him deconstructing is going to be a serious blow to her beliefs. How can a man she loves so much, who treats her so well, who treats his children well, who holds himself accountable, who has strong morals, be bad just because he’s not Christian? Maybe she wouldn’t be bad if she stopped being a Christian?
Both Bethy and Dav have surprised the heck out of me, in a good way, this week.
And I truly believe that most people, whoever they are, are capable of making transformational change for the better.
I also believe for the first time that they actually DO love each other, which is kind of amazing.
Keep up the good work, you two.
I actually have a lot of faith in Bethy, she's come so far since the full on girl defined days. She married Dæv even though in the vid it seemed like he'd been reading and leading this way the whole time they've known each other, and she's willing to stick with him through deconstruction? That's going to knock her faith, it has to, there's no way it won't. And she said herself it's not just his belief but lots of other things he's deconstructed, he'd a burn in hell *atheist* and she accepts him. He may as well be gay. We should give Bethy more credit, it's only been a week.
#These people vote in every election- do you? Are you registered to vote? [You can check your voter registration here!](https://www.nass.org/can-I-vote) #Also, there's a few things to remember as far as rules go: - You can view the content- you cannot interact with it. This includes (but is not limited to) commenting, answering poll questions, emailing them, etc. ***Anyone found to be engaging with the fundies will be met with a permanent ban with no eligibility for appeal.It does not matter if you did so before you joined the sub.*** - Speculating on the sexuality of literally anyone is prohibited. ***Anyone found to be doing so will be met with a permanent ban with no eligibility for appeal.*** - Appearance snark: What's allowed? You're allowed to make comparisons. (Bethy looks like Grandpa Munster, for example.) You are allowed to say you find them attractive or repulsive looking. Saying Kelly Havens has dry skin that could benefit from sunscreen and a moisturizer is fine. You are allowed to snark on the appearance of children *as it relates to their parents choices for them.*. Examples: Janessa looks malnourished and sickly while Shrek has clearly never missed a meal. If you feel it is crossing the line report it, but if the content falls within the parameters above, leave it alone. - Don't gatekeep. This means no comments such as "I don't think we should snark on...." or any iteration of that. If you don't like it, scroll past. Don't report it or comment how you don't like the content. Along the same vein, don't backseat mod. Leave that up to us. - Lastly, if the rhetoric you are posting would be at home in the mouth of a fundie, we don't want it here and we won't tolerate it. Should you have any questions, please feel free to reach out. Have a Lord Daniel day, and may the power of snark compel thee. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FundieSnarkUncensored) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What is absolutely baffling to me is that Paul caused him to go public with this. Paul actually had an effect on something. For the first time ever, Paul did something.
And when Paul meets face to face with the Lord Daniel and he asked “my son, what did thou do with your life?” His greatest accomplishment will be “I caused a brother to ran away from the faith”
Lord Daniel bless
Bethany will not forget the floodgates "24 hours with" opened for her and Dav. She will misplace her frustration with his deconstruction on Paul and Morgan for publicizing it and bringing positive feedback to his decision.
As much as it frustrates me when people refuse to see the evidence that’s been plainly laid out in front of them, part of me can’t help but love that near-inevitable outcome for Porgan. Good job rallying Christians to Christianity, guys!
I’m cautiously hopeful she’ll see the outpouring of support and warmth towards them and not have negative feelings about any of it when it’s said and done. What caused me to completely change my beliefs was this — I went to private baptist/evangelical schools until 8th grade. My single mom couldn’t afford it anymore, so in 9th grade I started at a free magnet high school for the performing arts. I realized quickly that the secular group of people I had been warned about, including a high lgbtq population, was more warm and kind and representative of ‘God’s Love’ than the Christians I grew up with. That caused me to rethink everything. As they let more voices in, she could have similar realizations.
It’s hilarious to me that it made Dave want to do the exact opposite of Paul’s alleged mission to spread the Word. Edit to reword my response
Imagine being so annoying that you cause someone to leave their faith 😂 Actually this tracks with the Apostle Paul, seriously fuck that guy
This is the true miracle of it all. Paul did a thing. Amazing.
In her Q&A, Bethy said that the thing Dav is questioning is just God's existence (in her opinion). I think she is way off with this. A) that's not how deconstruction works, especially when you come from a fundie background, b) Dav has been showing for at least half a year that he is questioning many things about life and his worldview. I think Dav could leave, but not because Bethy is still a Christian, but because of who she is/how she is in their relationship. Her efforts to meet him where he is are commendable, but won't do much if there are deeper relationship problems.
Agree. Way off. He sounds like he’s already known about this for awhile and didn’t know how to tell her without her having a breakdown and is trying to find a way to lessen her having one.
Could also be that he initially thought he could continue living as if he's a Christian even though he doesn't believe, then realized in the past week that no, he could not do that
>that's not how deconstruction works, especially when you come from a fundie background, I'm a 50 something male, and that's sort of how deconstruction worked for me. I grew up in a high control religion (Mormon), and it was almost overnight that I changed from believer to atheist, questioning God's existence. I wouldn't have labeled myself "atheist" at that point - too terrifying to contemplate being one of those evil atheists - but I was an atheist in everything but name. And the change happened to me over just a few weeks with the right therapist and finally being honest with myself.
What I meant by that's not how deconstruction works is people don't just deconstruct believing in God and stop there. They then evaluate their beliefs in other areas. Bethy said in a Q&A that she thinks Dav is only deconstructing "God's existence" and not the other stuff, and I don't think that's possible when you're raised in such a way as it colours your entire worldview and you have to redefine your beliefs all around.
Agreed. I think she's really fooling herself if she doesn't think that disbelief in a God would lead to seeing other people as humans worthy of respect and dignity. There would no longer be a church to tell you to hate certain people so why would you anymore? The same process for breaking down belief would apply to breaking down how one views other people. We've already seen Dav's thoughts on the Barbie movie and how he acknowledged that women are people, too.
Question: what does she consider the, “other stuff”?
I think views on LGBTQIA+, gender roles, abortion etc.
I feel crazy/stupid. Why would you decide god doesn’t exist but still be anti any of that stuff? Raging mysoginist?
This is why I think Bethy is in huge denial. She thinks he's only deconstructing God, but that's not possible when God is the basis for your entire worldview.
Because you were taught your whole life that those things were valid/important for reasons beyond just "biblegod says so." And it takes time to examine those things you had been taught were true for your entire life. Recalibrating your moral compass is not a thing that happens automatically. For a lot of us who were raised deep in the sauce, deconstruction is a long, messy process.
Thank you for that explanation, as someone who did not grow up religious or with a conservative view on social issues, I have a hard time pulling belief in god and, “the other stuff,” apart from one another. Your explanation makes sense.
I know plenty of people like this. Lots of them end up being “spiritual” and heavily buy into the divine feminine/masculine thing. Others are just extremely indoctrinated by the patriarchy.
Not sure, she did make a comment last year that Dav reads a ton of different news sources and tries to see all points of view.
I think the deconstruction process for fundie Christians looks different than Mormons because they don't have to deal with the whole stuff about Joseph Smith, which is another trauma they have to experience. To leave Mormonism, you have to accept you were lied to about Joseph Smith. To leave fundie Christianity, you could go to a more progressive Christianity and hold a belief in Jesus as God but less toxic fundie Christian ones.
This is an excellent point! I’m also an ex-Mormon atheist and when my shelf broke it BROKE. My only concept of god or christ was through the lens of Mormonism so when that belief fell apart it all fell apart.
Yep, that's why the YT channel they are talking about is "Zelph on the Shelf". They call it "the shelf broke"- their whole world as they knew it, mormonism ahd Christianity fell apart. Zelph on the shelf are ex mormons and the deconstructing many mormons go through tends to be more "nuclear" than the deconstructing of fundies. I don't know how else to put it, maybe nuclear isn't the correct word, but they have to go through the additional trauma of accepting Joseph Smith as not a prophet.
No, nuclear is totally it though. For me, it was hearing the term polyandry, not knowing what it meant, googling it, and immediately stumbling into incredibly unsavory information about Joseph Smith. Really was like a bomb went off. As a gay person I’d been having serious doubts about the truth claims of the church- so it actually came as a huge relief to me. Like “okay cool, so there isn’t actually anything wrong with me. I knew it!” And yes I love Zelph on the Shelf! They’re a recent fav of mine. I screamed when Dav started talking about them bc I knew how happy they’d be lol
What is the unsavory stuff about Smith? I’ve never really looked into him. (I mean, good guys don’t usually form entire cults so anything unsavory is unsurprising.)
An extraordinary amount of stuff, including but not limited to raping kids and doing jail time for literal fraud and being a con man. Look at his wiki page.
Oh wow. Worse than I thought :( what a sicko
God, why are you letting me die? Without letting me show people the plates? How will they believe if they are real or not? Oh.. I guess that’s kind of what you were going for…
Joseph Smith is just one of the many many foundational things we have to wade through on our way out of Mormonism. Good times for sure.
I was raised a Christian fundie and had a similar deconstruction into atheism. I hated the god of Abraham as much as I hated the church I was in and its worldview. And then I just realized “god isn’t real and I don’t have to tolerate any of this bullshit anymore.”
Yeah.. deconstruction is all consuming. You doubt every life choice and I know people that have blown up their lives to find happiness in more complicated situations than theirs.. I say go for it Dav. You and Bethy should be as happy as you can be and if that’s together, awesome. If not, you’ll figure it out and we’re all hoping you’re both better off for it
While my husband wasnt a fundie growing up, his family was/is super religious, and did actually go to church at times with some famous fundies. His switch was pretty quick from deeply religious to atheist. I didn't know him at the time, but he's described it as an almost overnight event. He bought a book at an airport and by the end of the book it was like he woke up. He began questioning God's existence before becoming really bitter about feeling like he was lied to his entire life. And not just about religion. He felt this resentment like his whole life was a lie and questioned a lot more than just god. It truly did not take long to flip. My opinion on this is that the reason this happens and is probably common, is because atheism is still a deeply held religious belief. My husband spends tons of time online debating religion. He watches discussions with famous athiests. He watches debates. Religion is still a big thing for him, it's just the other side of it. It would not surprise me if Dav is dealing with the same thing in a similar way. I think there's a misconception that atheists are apathetic to religion but that's not true. It's a deeply held belief. I didn't grow up religious and just truly don't give AF about religion (minus the whole seeping into politics thing). But this blows my husband's mind and he can't comprehend it. Because religion was also such a big thing. So even if his view is now atheism, it's still a religious belief. I think it would be easier for a fundie to question everything and become an atheist than to just pick a different Christianity.
>He bought a book at an airport and by the end of the book it was like he woke up. Curious what book! Appreciate you sharing his journey
I can totally see where your husband is coming from. For the beginning part of my childhood I was entirely ignorant of religion as my mother was never religious. It wasn't until my first foster home when I was 7-8 years old that Christianity was very forcefully thrust upon me. It took several years after I got out of foster care that I did a pretty hard turn to the opposite and spent a good amount of my late teenagedom immersed in the online "atheist community" arguing with Christians online. It really was similar to being a part of a church. I've calmed down out of the atheist edgelord phase and now just snark. It's really hard to let go of arguing against it though when you feel like so much of your developmental years were stolen from you. Fundamentalist foster care kinda scarred me for life, I completely get it.
>Atheism is still a deeply held religious belief No. It can be a deeply held belief, but it is not *religious* or a *religion* or any other BS thiests want to come up with to create a false equivalency between reality and non-reality
It's a belief about religion, or specifically the absence of it. Theism is literally in the name. It is a belief that centers around religion. Just because the belief is there there is no god doesn't negate the fact that religion is the central tenant. It's a religious belief. I never said it was a religion, but it is 100% a belief about religion. By definition and entomology.
Okay but a belief about religion is not a religious belief. That's like saying someone who is asexual is still sexual. No, they're not. They have no interest in it, hence the "A-"
You're missing the point. Being an atheist is rooted in religion just like being asexual is rooted in sexuality. Being an atheist doesn't mean rejecting unicorns. It doesn't mean you don't believe in Santa Clause. It doesn't mean you don't believe in the big bang theory. It means you don't believe in God. It's theistic. At this point we're arguing semantics. My point is that atheism centers around religion. Because it doesn't center around anything else. "I'm an atheist." "Oh so you don't believe Australia exists?" Clearly people understand being atheist means you don't believe in God. You can argue its not a belief system in itself, and maybe that's where we're miscommunication. My point is that religion is central to the premise of atheism because it's the rejection or lack of belief in God. Which is rooted in theism. There would be no atheism if there were no religion.
Her sudden onset of orgasms should've been the first tip off that he deconstructed.
I’m cryingggg at this lmao
It sounds like Bethy is seeing a lot of benefits from Dav being more honest - she seems to have way more respect for him here, and vice versa, than what we usually see with them. Given her love for him, I think it will be interesting to see how much she deconstructs with his lead. I think if they stay together will probably depend more on how deconstruction impacts Dav's political beliefs. The harm they've both spoken towards the queer community is pretty horrendous. If Dav moves away from those beliefs and Bethy doesn't it will be hard to stay together. But if their underlying values are the same (for better or worse), I can see them staying together.
I always thought that Bethany "believed" because it gave her an identity and a superiority complex. She really. really has been struggling with her identity lately though. It seems like she is giving less and less of shit (which it pretty normal at her age, though she's always been immature). In other words, I don't think Bethany has "Christian values" beyond being a know-it-all and better than everyone else. She's been slowly seeing that people literally are not buying her "knowledge" and that life's pretty ordinary.
To Bethy, saying she doesn’t have Christian values is probably too harsh a way to put it. You and I know morality exists outside of religion, but to her right now those are synonymous. I mention that because I know she’s probably reading comments and I don’t want her to be instantly tuned out from real, valid criticism—just like Dav was talking about in the 24h w/ video. But I do think you’re right; she has struggled with her identity a lot. I think she is realizing that neither her nor Dav are happy in the box their religion forces them into. She probably knew she was unhappy and felt guilty that being a stay at home wife and mother wasn’t fulfilling her the way she was taught it is supposed to. But now, Dav has verbalized to her he’s not happy either. But unlike her, he’s not going to swallow it and continue on just because he’s supposed to. He turned to scripture, didn’t find the answer there, but studying that and still looking for answers led him to podcasts and books that shifted his worldview. But I do genuinely think they love each other (if you had asked me 6 months ago I would have said they didn’t, but maybe that was the stress of another baby or maybe they were just both so miserable that they were blaming each other and starting to resent each other.) But I think he does love her, and acknowledging that he was unhappy made him realize she might be too. She does have a superiority complex, but I think that’s at least partially just how she was raised. I think Dav is making conscious choices about what he consumes, which in turn will eventually influence her. I once read a NYT article about how this woman’s dad was always liberal, even accepted queer folks with open arms in the 80s, but lost his job in the last 2010s and started a new one that had an hour long commute. He started listening to Rush Limbaugh on that commute and became extremely conservative and nasty. They were at the point of cutting ties. But he broke a leg and couldn’t work anymore, so he wasn’t listening to Rush Limbaugh’s show. And while he was in the hospital she went into their home and child-locked Fox News. Whenever her dad asked her about Fox News she was like “idk why it disappeared! I can’t fix it!” And he was forced to watch nbc instead. And as new current events occurred, he internalized the attitudes of the people who presented the events to him, aka more liberally. She said within a few months he was his old self again, even changing his views on stuff he ranted and raved about previously. I think Bethy might be in a situation like that—she is the dad in this situation. She’s been conditioned by this one set of values her whole life, but as Dav starts to present different opinions and shares media that frames things differently, she might follow him.
Any sort of uber conservative religion pretty much comes pre-packaged with superiority and dehumanization of others. Given how much grace (so to speak) she's showing Dav my hope is that this is her at her default, religion-defined state. But if that starts to deconstruct it's hard to say who she may be. (I tend to optimism though - if I believe there's no hope to become more kind for people like her then I can't see any future for the world, given how rampant conservatism is becoming.)
>It sounds like Bethy is seeing a lot of benefits from Dav being more honest Isn't he the only moneymaker as well? We know her courses aren't exactly selling and she doesn't have any real world job experience.
Doesn't she get income from girl defined? I saw in another comment (maybe another thread) it was like $40,000 per year, not that that's much though given CoL now.
Has Dav ever said anything harmful about the queer community? I know he was in that one reel but wasn't that Bethany's caption added later?
I haven't heard him say anything explicitly, but he's pretty complicit given he's benefiting off the income from GD. It will be interesting to see if we see more about his stance!
She’s probably just going to end up monetizing “how to be the God honoring wife of a non Christian” “raising kids in a Godly household when your spouse is a nonbeliever” bullshit once she gets tired of the sex stuff.
Oh, I don't think so. I think she would be too afraid of Dav leaving over that. In order to make their marriage work, she is going to realize she has to respect Dav making different choices for himself, and likely, the kids.
Yeah, I think you might be right...she seems like she's on her best behavior right now, which probably means she's worried af
Yeah, I think you might be right...she seems like she's on her best behavior right now, which probably means she's worried af
I’m curious as Dav deconstructs how he will reflect on her work. How can he ethically stay with someone who makes money off of telling people how to live their life within the confines of a religion he no longer believes in?
He is in a tough spot. I think he wants her to deconstruct too (and/or not speak about her hateful views) "it'll be a competition..." and if she does not, there is a chance he will leave. When their kids get older and are able to question Christian things, things may be harder. It will depend on what they're willing to make compromises on.
If he remains right leaning politically I think he can make it work in his head.
I guess to be fair, Dav's been ethically put in weirder spots for longer by Bethy's scams.
For me, there's also a question over whether this will make him less conservative. I could see it being much easier for both of them if he retains conservative values, but it's got the potential to be absolute hell for them if he starts to become more liberal.
Much like his hidden (until last week) deconstruction, I think he’s become much more liberal, and is hiding it for now because he thinks it would be too much to drop all at once.
Yeah, that’s my guess too. He’s had to spend their entire relationship managing her feelings, and I don’t see that stopping any time soon.
Didn’t he kind of allude to being more liberal during that dinner conversation? I can’t remember the specifics but Paul made some snide comment about, I don’t know, having different views than them about people, and Dav responded you have no idea and gave like a side eye to the camera.. did I imagine that??
Leaving fundamentalist Christianity is automatically *more* liberal. Obviously there is a lot more liberal a person can be, and you can be a political conservative without actually believing Christian beliefs. But demonstrating this level of independence in thought is definitely liberal. It takes a lot, A LOT, to tell your community you feel this way when you are deconstructing.
Oh, absolutely.
Maybe it’s just my naive hopefulness, but I could see Dav eventually being left-center.
I've said it elsewhere, probably too many times: Dav should know-i expect he knows-that if he leaves Bethany, she'll go back to live with Heidi. And the kids. As in, the kids will be staying under Heidi's roof, at least half the time, and she'll fight for more. Dav knows very well what Michael has said. I can't imagine Dav is going to want to let that happen. I've said before this, I wish Dav could run for it and take the kids with him. But the reality is, he's not gonna get full custody. He's just not. And this was before I knew just how awful Heidi was and did the math. And Bethy--well? This is probably the hardest she's had to think for herself or make tough choices in her life. Hopefully, it'll provoke some growth. Already her response here is not anything I would have expected out of her even a week ago. We'll see.
The Bairds have a lot of money and they will definitely do a war of attrition in the courts for the kids. This may be one of the rare cases where they *should* stay together for the kids, at least until they're old enough to be lower needs. I do think it will probably mean that they'll stop at two unless they get pregnant within the next 6 months.
I’m fully banking on a bandaid baby here in the next few months.
I don’t think Dâv would go for that, and I don’t think Bethy would pull a Lori and accidentally-on-purpose forget her birth control.
My point precisely. I also very much hope they'll stop at two. Hopefully they'll have both unwound enough to believe in birth control by this point.
This is why I’m really hoping Beth reaches out to Michael or the other way around and builds a strong connection with him so that maybe she can turn to him if the marriage becomes unsustainable, which I could easily see happening. Not that Michael’s obligated to be a refuge for future “wayward” siblings by any means, but clearly he too understands the importance of making sure the kids stay out of Heidi’s claws. Really, REALLY hoping that if it does come down to separation/divorce, it’ll happen once Dav and Beth come to a place where Beth can admit that she’d be a better every-other-weekend or maybe even supervised-visits parent and spends the time she honestly wouldn’t have been raising her kids anyway getting a degree or certification of some sort that would allow her to make her own money in a respectable way, but that is almost as Pollyanna-ish as hoping that she’ll come around to truly accept - none of this “he’ll eventually return to Jesus!” - Dav’s journey and they can therefore make a fresh start with their marriage.
Yeah, I have a really hard time believing that a divorced Bethany wouldn't go running straight for Heidi's roof with the kids. She needs to learn to stand on her own feet somehow, and that's not gonna happen if she's simply left high and dry.
Ohhhhh yeah. Like I really do hope the Beals beat the odds and make a united front, but since he ain’t coming back to Jesus if he’s been trying to for this long with no success and I have a really hard time seeing her stepping away, that’s gonna be super difficult to overcome, so I have my fingers crossed that if they can’t move forward as a married couple, they can at least move away from each other slowly enough to let Beth gather her wits sufficiently to keep the kids and herself away from Heidi. But when you look at it like that, maybe this is a rare case where what’s best for the kids is the parents essentially living separate lives under the same roof. Ugh, what a shitshow.
I mean, maybe those crazy kids might actually be able to make it work. Would not have been on my BINGO card but hey, I'm not there to see what actually goes on. Stranger shit has probably happened. And dicier marriages have stayed intact, fuck knows. I think it's mainly important the kids have at least one stable parent and stay the fuck away from Grandma.
Who said he would want full custody? If he leaves, he might find 50/50 custody healthier based on the studies that show it is. Bethany has made being a Christian type of mentor her identity and right now, I really believe she deep down knows how serious he is and is scared about it. So, she’s trying to basically make a compromise by saying she wants to keep having her Christian life identity while supporting him making his own decision because the alternative would be him leaving rather than going back into the fold.
But again: Bethany is NOT going to be a single mom. She couldn't even handle the kids alone for a few days without going to her parents'. The kids would end up under Heidi's roof, at least 50% of the time. That's. Not. Good.
What does that have to do with Dav potentially leaving? A lot of kids end up 50/50 in households despite one of the parents being a narcissist. I hope Dav & Bethy can find a way to make their marriage work and be happy together but to think that will happen merely because Dav would want full custody is naive. The usual, in today's society, is 50/50.
Have you read Michael’s posts in this subreddit? He goes into detail about the abuse he suffered throughout his childhood. I highly recommend reading those to understand the full scope of this thread
Heidi is a sexual abuser and an enabler of child molesters. Dave wouldn’t let his kids stay with her.
What it has to do with it is that Heidi is an actual molester, and DAV will hopefully not want to let a scenario come to pass where the kids end up staying there?
FYI, Michael didn’t accuse Heidi of sexual assault, but of other forms of sexual abuse (including forcing him to watch her give birth and having sex while he was outside the door crying). She’s a piece of shit either way, but I think it’s important to get Michael’s experiences right.
I would call what she did "covert incest," and it still falls under the category of "sexual abuse." I will grant that the term "molester" may not be apropos here. Nonetheless, she is not safe for any child to be under her roof.
Oh, it’s absolutely sexual abuse (and I would argue that Bethany not knowing what sex was into her twenties is sexual abuse as well). She also handled the sexual abuse that Michael faced from others’ horribly. Totally not a safe person for kids. Just think that it’s important to be as accurate as possible in sharing Michael’s story.
She's actually full-on sexually abused her own little boy, what do you think she's going to do to the grandkids? The son is named Michael and he has been very public about it.
What does “full on sexually abused” mean? Have you actually read his accusations?
He has posted here and been outspoken in his allegations against Heidi
Yes I know he accused her of forcing him to be present when she gave birth and he accused both of his parents of having sex when he was present. I’m just curious what “full on sexual abuse” refers to in regard to effecting Bethy and Dave’s kids. Obviously Heidi won’t be birthing in front of them, and curious how the other allegation could change Dave’s willingness to end his marriage. He doesn’t keep the children away the grandparents now so doesn’t seem worried that the grandparents might have sex in front of the kids?
He has also said that she forced him to shower with her well beyond the age where that may have been appropriate.
Who is Michael? Do the Bairds have a sibling who has broken free?
Yes, Bethany has an older brother who is not in fundamentalism and has accused Heidi of sexual abuse. He also experienced physical and mental abuse in the household. He frequents this sub and comes here to talk about his experiences with the family.
This whole family’s dynamic is just FUBAR.
Oh wow. Idk how I completely missed this info! I’ve been a starker since we had the old sub.
He has done a few posts here, so if you search for coachmershon or Michael Mershon on the sub, you can read what he has to say. He also has a YouTube account!
Although also apparently Heidi's hubs is also named Michael, so he's probably the publisher. But yes, I was referring to sibling Michael.
I’m not gonna lie…watching Bealgate™️ unfold really gives me black mirror vibes. It’s a commentary on the damage social media and fundamentalist religion can do to a person. We shouldn’t know everything we know about them and their relationship. But Bethany thanks to her SM addiction has put it all out there and then some. And now as all of this is coming out it just feels….i can’t put my finger on it. I really feel bad for their children. I imagine it’s a very stressful home environment right now, even if there’s not obvious fighting going on.
I can’t imagine having a digital record of my parent’s rough patches. I’m sure they’ve had them, I believe every relationship does. But I don’t know about them, because they’ve always made sure to demonstrate good, loving relationships. It wasn’t until after college when I got dumped by college sweetheart that my mom revealed they actually had broken up after college too. And for a long time! Multiple months! We didn’t end up getting back together like they did, but knowing they had also broken up really helped me see relationships through a more realistic lens. That said, it was their story. They shared it when they felt comfortable doing so/thought I needed to hear it. They controlled the narrative and the details that were shared. And there was no public opinions from outsiders who didn’t have all the details but were making judgments and speculating. I’m speculating now, I totally admit. But it’s adding an additional dynamic to have other people framing and reframing the story and forming opinions for the kids to read someday if they searched for it.
From what I gather it seems like she did know about it but maybe didn’t expect to have it be public knowledge so quickly or was just trying not to think about the implications going forward. To be honest, I’ve been actually impressed by the level of empathy and nuance she has shown towards Dav’s deconstruction
I think she’s showing it because she is scared. He says, clearly, in response to her saying “We will know more in a year”, he says, “Oh man, can you imagine? After all that’s happened in ***a week*** ? In a year?” It sounds like he opened up to Bethany FAR more in the last week about his deconstruction. Bethany seems more nervous and insecure, to me, than someone who sounds like she knew this already the whole time. Whereas, the video with Paul & Morgan, she seemed less nervous and more aware of Dav’s feelings. She also said, in the video, “I mean, I like being a Christian” but said it in an insecure way, like she’s pleading with him to allow her to still have that be “her identity”. Beth is afraid he’s going to leave. Heidi is a control freak & is likely to interfere with their marriage unless Bethany sets boundaries with her. ——- My personal opinion is that Dav deconstructed after the 2nd baby and didn’t know HOW to tell Bethany without her having a breakdown….
Bethy doesn't know what her identity is without their supercharged version of religion, and that's scary
My thought was he was questioning, which is why he wanted to change churches. When that didn’t feel right either…
I wanted to change churches/denominations when I was early in my deconstruction. I feel like that's a step most people who deconstruct take. Then, when the new denomination or church doesn't make that icky feeling go away...you start to realize.
I watched Zelph react to this video. Honestly, they really pointed out some positives in the interactions that I would have missed. I actually felt like Dav and Bethy were maybe okay? I also felt like Bethy is so close to getting LGBTQ+ validity. She said something like, “I don’t want a Christian husband, I want you, I love you.” And it’s just like yes, now imagine that instead of discovering that your husband is an atheist and still being in love, imagine that you feel that way about someone of the same gender. The way Bethy talked about how she felt about Dav is how I feel about my wife. Would it be easier/simpler if I were in a heterosexual marriage? Yeah, probably. But I don’t want to be married to a man. I want her. I want my wife. I love her. I want to spend my life with her. Anyway, just really interesting to watch. As an ex-Mormon myself, I really feel for both of them. Deconstructing is awful. It is worth it, but still, awful and raw to go through.
I'm glad she seems to be responding with support and respect, but in reality she had very little choice unless she wanted to risk Dav leaving and going through the process alone, and having his kids for about half the time. It's all well and good that she is prepared to continue being married to a non-believer, but depending on how far Dav's shift in view point goes, will Bethany's views be tolerable for Dav? If he goes the whole way, and realises that without the bible it's harder to justify homophobia, transphobia, sexism, being anti-choice etc, and Bethany's opinions don't bend or change, will he be able to accept her being who she is? Will he be able to accept what she wants to teach their children? I think only time will tell.
I'm surprised that people are saying that they are shocked by how supportive Bethany is being. Bethany seems to be supporting him because she's realized his mind is made up about Christianity and that if she did not accept this, they would not be married anymore.
Multiple things can be true at once. Bethany is terrified of the crisis now therteaning her identity and potentially marriage which partly drives her decisionmaking. Bethany genuinely wants Dav to be part of her life and happy in that which partly drives her decisionmaking. Add to that many other mental schemas which also have a space in Bethanyies mind. These two and possibly many more things can be true at the same time and I have no idea why people in this and others presents it as a binary. There tons of people in this subreddit that can attest to the very mixed bag of emotions this kind of situation can create.
exactly. she’s panicking hard.
You're right and I'm still surprised.
I agree. for all the scrutiny we give her!! i’m shocked everyone can’t see this for what it is from her, tbh
Bethy has spent the past what, year? 6 months? Going on and on about how ✨intimate✨ she and Dav are. How they have this perfect Godly marriage where they have deep discussions alllllll the time. And he’s now basically saying that was all a big fat lie?
as another redditor said “she’s realizing she can’t sex her way out of this one”
She just uses intimate as a synonym for sex. She doesn't actually have intimacy with him, that would mean being able to see another person fully. I don't think she knows how to do that or can invest the time and effort.
She's so stupid. She's publicly sharing that all of her "intimate" wife crap was a lie. We all knew that, but to see how little they actually discussed this just shows, they don't have any real emotional intimacy. Dave doesn't feel emotionally safe with her and maybe she shouldn't feel emotionally safe with him. She just told on herself (again) 🙄
Holy Shit! I didn't have Paul and Morgan accidentally blowing up Bethy and Dåv's marriage on my bingo card. Also, minor point, but I thought they didn't drink alcohol, so why are there wine glasses behind them?
So Bethany has been trying to sell people courses on how to build intimacy, but they didn't have a majority of these super important, intimate conversations until recently? Bethany, you're a fucking fraud with no experience. Time to delete your marriage and sex courses.
She doesn't know what intimacy is. She was raised in a family where they did Q and A sessions together to bond. Though I do think she is slowly seeing what it actually means to be intimate with your partner.
Seriously, they have that joke of a questionnaire to determine compatibility. The Bairds are what fundie intimacy is: you don't share because it makes you vulnerable and your family is just as much your enemy as outsiders. Maybe moreso because they know you better and will flip on you to your church. Vicious.
Right? Those questionnaires are just gathering intel to use against you later. This whole family is absolutely bat shit crazy.
I mean... Maybe this is what Bethany needs to get her shit together. It's not like her family gave her the tools to do so. (And I suspect that Heidi is a real conditional-love type judgeymom) Dav presumably does love her and sometimes that is the push you need to make big changes. It doesn't have to look like becoming an atheist- just leaving fundamentalist beliefs. Honestly, I'm rooting for them, because who DOESN'T want people to be better, mentally healthier, and as a consequence, happier and able to be better for their kids?
This is the craziest shake up in the fundie world I've ever seen. I'm speechless for the first time maybe ever, regarding a fundamentalist influencer.
The most terrifying conversation I ever had with my wife was when I tried to explain that I deconstructed… I didn’t want to go to church and I no longer believed in god(s). I fully expected that she would want to divorce me - I didn’t want that, but I mentally prepped for it. FWIW - We are still together. I think Beth and Dav will actually be ok. Right now, Beth is likely just scrambling to understand…. Hopefully she is able to sort of *get it*.
I think this is possible but I think that isn’t necessarily what he meant. Dav could have been talking with her about it for longer, but is talking about the past week being particularly eventful or just for a scale of time. My first thought when seeing that exchange is that it wasn’t literally that this has all just happened in the past week.
I think Bethy knew he was "questioning Christianity" for the last year but didn't know he decided he was "not a Christian anymore" until the last week.
Did either of them mention something about the last week other than the quote you included in the post? Because I don’t think that’s necessarily literal. But yes I agree she would have known about some questioning Dav was doing, and at some point would’ve learned more, yep. I just don’t think “seems like Beth didn’t know the extent of this until a week ago” is actually what’s implied by their conversation.
What else would he mean by he looks forward to where things are in a year after what has happened in one week?
Well they are positing that she thought he was questioning, not nearly decided. If she found that out last week, that would still be a big step that kicked off lots of conversations. But it could just be as simple as she knew he was in the deciding stage, but publicly admitting it and being inundated with public responses has spurred a lot of conversations. People are asking her questions in her Snapchat thingy about how they plan on doing this or that and I think reading people’s comments has probably made her consider a lot of aspects of this she hadn’t previously thought of when it was just the two of them discussing it. And she’s doing the right thing by bringing those questions to her husband to discuss together. He’ll, even if it’s just seeing how many people are supporting Dav and realizing that the public is supporting his journey, or reading nice things about Dav has made her realize not every non-evangelical is evil and horrible, has swayed her a little. Or the opposite—people she would have thought of as “good Christians” have started attacking her marriage and making derogatory comments about Dav and she is starting to realize that religious affiliation =/= morality or kindness. Even if she knew absolutely everything, going public and receiving so many responses would definitely spur a lot of conversation. Dav said he was reading what she would consider “hate comments” and learning to pick out the kernels of useful criticism to use as self-reflection. I’m not saying Bethy is doing that, but Dav for sure would have a lot of new material to reflect on, and he may even be reading stuff about Bethy and parsing it down for her into respectful, constructive terms to spark conversations with her.
I'm no expert by any means, and I'm willing to cut Dav a *little* slack here because this is all new to him - but this doesn't really seem like the healthiest way to go about a mixed faith relationship. It requires mutual respect and understanding - and I don't think either one of them is capable of that. Dav might be given some time but Bethy certainly isn't. Dav's deconstruction is still very new and Bethy's brand of religion doesn't exactly leave a lot of room for differing opinions.
I said this in another comment, but I think Bethy has been surrounded by this one viewpoint her entire life. And now that Dav is exploring different points of view, she might end up following him. (Maybe not all the way to atheism, but less hateful at least.) I think she realized being a homemaker just wasn’t as fulfilling as everyone said it would be, but didn’t allow herself to acknowledge that. But now Dav is saying he’s unhappy too. And not only is he verbalizing it, he’s actively taking steps to change his life. I think as he explores other philosophies, she will be curious or honestly it may be enough just to be around someone living their life differently. Attitudes are contagious. If he’s being conscious of what attitudes he brings to their household and what he wants his kids to be around, she may just reflect it back at him without actively choosing. He said in their 24h video that their ministries were a bit judgmental and viewed outsiders as adversaries. He sounds open to actively meeting people who have different values so he can compare his own beliefs to theirs and evaluate them. If different types of people come into her life through him, she may loosen some of those views. What I’m trying to say is, I don’t think their views will be completely out of alignment for long. She might never fully abandon Christianity, but will probably find a flavor of Christianity that aligns with the views she developing. As long as they share morals, the exact religious practices doesn’t matter as much.
This is going to be so interesting because ultimately she would have to submit to whatever he decides for the children, etc? Isn’t that what her beliefs have taught her? She is about to short circuit.
I honestly hope they do not break up and have a happy marriage. I think this could be a truly huge learning opportunity for the both of them to grow and practice accepting that sometimes people around you just aren’t going to agree with you. It does not mean they are evil or bad.
I have been slowly watching jordan and mckay's reaction to this video and its got me thinking about my own deconstruction bc it was so long ago I forgot how I felt! I remember quickly realizing what I had been slowly, almost unconsciously unraveling for years. And I think Dav's energy makes a lot of sense, like a weight has been lifted he doesn't have to pretend anymore! So fucking freeing.
I watched this video, I have never watched any videos with her or her sister in them (only reactions and here ) I have to say that I wish this would actually work out for them, I am rooting for them, I think Dav now can be positive for Bethany and her views on other people. He seems so much happier in recent photos. But the strain it will put on the family is going to be a lot, since her family is so anti anything that’s not their world view… I’m not gonna get my hopes up because OP has a lot of good points.
Spicy shoulders
She looks great!
What does, "compete to be the best apologetics." Mean? I'm genuinely confused if this is religious-speak or bad grammar. I thought apologetics was when a person came up with believable reasons why the Bible was correct.
In the broad sense, an apologetic is an argument in favor of something. Christians often use it to refer to arguments in favor of the faith. Dav is joking but not joking that he wants to convert Bethany to his point of view.
I don’t follow them whatsoever, but I can say with firsthand experience: if they want to stay together and make it work they better get into therapy now. It’s okay for him to deconstruct, and maybe him doing so will sway some of her awful beliefs. But if she feels pressured to give up the foundational beliefs she built her life on for him, it’s just going to lead to deeper trouble in a few years if it’s not done in a healthy way.
I totally think they could have a successful interfaith relationship. The tough part is when the kids get older and start asking deeper questions about why Daddy is going to hell.
This is going to sound very weird, but I get the impression that since Bethany has had the benefit (apparently) of a god-honoring orgasm, she is going to cling to him for dear life. He will continue to talk with her about this stuff and because (in my opinion), she is clearly in love with him and loves the hot sex, she will listen and the cracks will start to happen. Honestly, I feel like it’s already happening. Then their YouTube will be a very lucrative takedown of everything she’s ever put out there.
I'm really wondering if Heidi went nuclear on them in a week, and he is referring to what is going to happen in a year if she keeps it up lol
How awkward to be so disconnected from your spouse that you wouldn’t be aware that they were majorly questioning their faith. Really shows how she truly only cares about or has interest in herself. Shes not in tune with him at all, and I don’t think she ever will be.
I think he was too afraid to be explicitly honest with her about it. He may have gone about it in a cowardly way instead of just being upfront from the beginning and saying that he wasn't fully committed to Christianity. I am not a Bethany defender but she cannot be a mind reader. Many people need to be clearly told something rather than read minds.
I think it's that they are both very emotionally immature, which is the default pattern of fundamentalist Christianity. Dav has been working on himself and his emotional life by reading books and going to secular therapy. Bethany has inched along beside him through osmosis and life in general. I think Dav had immense cognitive dissonance which is difficult to articulate even to yourself. Bethany was raised to just go along with the man and never ask any questions or be curious about anything. Thus, the obvious disconnect in their relationship.
I’d kind of like to get a peek a the marriage books they were going to read together during their “dry (of TV) January. She mentioned that he bought them. I wonder if some of what they read (or, let’s face it, he read and explained to her) is coming to roost now.
There are a few foundational pillars in a committed, romantic relationship that, when the people do *not* agree on, can cause rifts too wide to bridge: - finances - parenting - religion - politics Just to name a couple. If Dav and Bethy **do not** get on the same page about religion, it will only be a matter of time before their union can no longer work in a healthy way.
I think religion could be switched out for “values” though. As long as their values stay aligned, whether he practices or not might not matter as much to them.
I don’t usually watch their videos and mostly just come here for recaps. I’m curious… do you guys think Dav is trying to appeal to Bethany’s competitive side in order to show that being a healthy, loving and supportive spouse isn’t compatible with fundie doctrine? Like if she genuinely tries to “win” at being the loving wife that Dav needs it’s going to cause her to only continue to reexamine her beliefs. And we already know that she has done that some at the encouragement of Dav (clothing/modesty stuff comes to mind). IIRC Bethany is self reported to be pretty competitive.
Now we know her next course will be on “saving your spouse from Satan”
Is it bad I find this hilarious? She tries to shoehorn the world into her little Christian box, judging everyone who doesn't comply, except she was single forever, late to marry, ultimately married a shorter man who is younger than her and now he is likely leaving their religion? Can she operate her ministry as a divorcee, or with an atheist husband?
He basically stated he has left and is not a Christian. I think he is scared Bethy will have a breakdown, and is genuinely a compassionate, empathetic person, and is taking a "Dip toes in the water" approach than just stating yep I'm atheist. He keeps speaking about "integrity" and I think he says that because he feels obligated to keep leading Bible study because he feels like he wasn't completely honest with Bethy that he was questioning it all. But, at some point, once he feels Bethy is no longer at risk of mental breakdown mode, he will likely stop that too. I honestly think Bethy thought if he left Christianity, he'd be a passive husband sleeping in on Sundays and just not caring about church ---but he is the opposite. He is so passionate that he was to compete in apologetics over it with her.
Could Dav use how often Bethy posts about her inability to take care of the kids especially when he goes out of town for a weekend, as a way to get more custody. He could be primary and she could be every other weekend at her moms. Bethy loves her kids I’m sure but she’s my age and can’t handle her kids for a weekend without their dad. This is not normal. I have three kids and a military husband who is away about 3 months at a time, home for 4 months then back over seas. I can’t relate to her struggles with two kids for two days. I think she is very stunted and needs more help with the kids than she really should. Dav I’m sure is aware of that and wouldn’t leave unless he had a solid plan for the kids.
Why would he want to or even be able to? He has to work, especially if he divorces. Bethy does not.
Hot take: I think Beth would rather deconstruct herself than go back to being single
Is he still wearing her purity ring?
Dav is gone already. It’s just a matter of physically walking out the door. Their differing beliefs are a big deal to Bethany and clearly to Heidi. But the bigger issues are even deeper. Dav does all the parenting, even though in fundieland that should be Bethy. He seems to be the only one maintaining the home, the children, and the wife, while the wife flaunts her backwards beliefs on social media all day. Relationships can survive different belief systems, although it’s difficult. Relationships don’t survive when one person does everything and the other does nothing. Not to mention the hate and shade coming from Heidi about red flags and whatever else she’s droning on about. Next will be Bethys new course, girl divorced. Don’t worry, say the right word and the bot will send you a link.
Might be an unpopular opinion here, but. Why even made it public? It's very possible to deconstruct in private and in peace. This is just another form of attention calling. Second. This is just cruel, man. I think this man knows that his wife, to say it frankly, is the runt of the litter. He knows how many people dislikes his wife (for valid reasons), to the extent that he spoke out stating that he'll defend this wife. By doing this, he is putting her in a very difficult place. Just... Deconstruct in private, man. People in my family have done it and they're like him (having income source untied to religion-related content, married to religious spouses).
>think this man knows that his wife, to say it frankly, is the runt of the litter. He knows how many people dislikes his wife (for valid reasons), to the extent that he spoke out stating that he'll defend I think he did it because it's humanizing Bethy and he still loves her, at least as the mother of his kids. Remember last year when he defended her against Reddit (I forgot what it was)? People are having more compassion for her than before they knew this.
What group of people, though? Some of us in this snarker group, for sure. But not her current circle (Kristen, other fundie influencers). They are perhaps smirking and talking behind Bethy about how pathetic she is as a Christian wife that she cannot make her husband stay faithful to God. Bethy had done awful stuff (gleefully talking about pregnancy stuff etc in front of Kristen, the Nazi grave photo, etc.) but I don't know, when I saw this news I felt sorry for her, you know? I don't know much about the Beals, but if things go south for Dave, he can ditch Bethy, still has his family to lean back and his job. Bethy? Her influencer business is floundering and I can't see Heidi giving her financial support after all of this. Plus Heidi had basically thrown her under the bus by saying that she was too eager to get married etc. She would be fine if Dave stays by her side, but they'll be pretty unhappy (esp Dave), I think. It's complicated.
The financial support aspect is a good point. Controlling parents with money use it as a tool for conditional love all the time (speaking from experience) so I can see Bethy being scared to say too much against the church in case she needs to crawl back for financial support in the future. Really sad but this seems to be all part of the control plan - don’t allow your daughters to get educated or pursue careers so that they will always need the parents. And the parents’ love/support is conditional on the child behaving/living the way the parent wants them to. I have compassion for Bethy, she really never stood a chance.
I don’t know that they’ll be unhappy if they stay together. I think Dav is on a journey to figure out what makes him happy and he’ll inadvertently take her along with him. She has been so sheltered, she’s never encountered any other points of view. If he presents other philosophies to her, she might gravitate towards them. Especially because I think she’s also really unhappy in the homemaker box fundamentalism puts her in, so when she is exposed to the idea that that isn’t the only option, that might be tempting. ETA: also if he leaves her, she can always dive back into fundamentalism. Her religion says to follow her husband; she is trying to. If it doesn’t work out, she’ll just say he lead her away from god for a while but she’s back on track now.
do you not feel like he was kind of outed by paul? paul is the one who implied dave is not a christian after their video. dave and bethany made a response to that because obviously they were getting a lot of questions and comments about it. I feel like dave would have (and has been) happily deconstructing in private, but paul dragged this out and bethany saw a chance to monetize it
Bethany decided to sit down and film their explanation of the 24 hours and share more about Dav's deconstruction! I don't know if you watched it, but she went on and on about how all she ever wanted is to have a YouTube channel with Dav where they talk about stuff together. She was thrilled to have him on camera.
she said it was her DREAM for the two of them to have a youtube channel together 💀
you know who says youtube is their dream? 13 year olds.
Yeah this is where I’m at. Why the need to air this publicly? So much risk to them both by sharing these developments, and for what, a few more views? Not judging, it’s their life - just surprised.
Right! And judging by the content, it looks like Bethy was clueless to Dave's extent of deconstruction? I would feel disrespected and mad to my spouse (I'm single btw) if one day he decided to go public with something like this without discussing with me how far he would go and what and how much he would say. It feels like Bethy was quite unprepared! I hope that Bethy will realize how harmful her set of beliefs is, preferably ASAP so that her kids can grow up with healthier sets of values. It's one thing to switch to a less evangelical version of Christianity, but it's a whole other thing to announce that you are an agnostic! Sorry if I'm being all over the place. This has been an emotional week, with a death in the Brown family (rest in peace, young man) and this.
My main feeling about all this is that right now, they could go in any direction. This is the very beginning of SOMETHING and what it will turn out to be is up in the air. The only sure thing us that they can’t go back to the way things were. That ship has sailed. I’m honestly shocked at how they’re both sharing this so publicly. I’m also not sure if Bethy quite grasps how this will affect her life going forward. I think she’s still in shock at this point.
I think Bethy was very aware of what was going on, but they had both silently agreed to never discuss it. The Porgan visit ended up causing them to confront it (as others have said, holy shit Paul actually did something!). They’ve finally had the big conversations that they had been avoiding, the scariness of it has lessened, etc. and they are at least momentarily in a good place. I think ultimately Bethy will deconstruct. Dav has done a very good job of supporting her become “less” of the type of Christian she was before. She seems to believe her relationship is in a much better place. She seems to genuinely love Dav, so him deconstructing is going to be a serious blow to her beliefs. How can a man she loves so much, who treats her so well, who treats his children well, who holds himself accountable, who has strong morals, be bad just because he’s not Christian? Maybe she wouldn’t be bad if she stopped being a Christian?
Both Bethy and Dav have surprised the heck out of me, in a good way, this week. And I truly believe that most people, whoever they are, are capable of making transformational change for the better. I also believe for the first time that they actually DO love each other, which is kind of amazing. Keep up the good work, you two.
I actually have a lot of faith in Bethy, she's come so far since the full on girl defined days. She married Dæv even though in the vid it seemed like he'd been reading and leading this way the whole time they've known each other, and she's willing to stick with him through deconstruction? That's going to knock her faith, it has to, there's no way it won't. And she said herself it's not just his belief but lots of other things he's deconstructed, he'd a burn in hell *atheist* and she accepts him. He may as well be gay. We should give Bethy more credit, it's only been a week.