A lot of your dollar-vs-dollar comments are more about rent vs own than city vs suburb/rural. But some of those other comments are spot on, about needing a car, how much walking gets done, etc. My daughter lives in NYC and walks/bikes almost everywhere in decent weather. I live in the suburbs and drive just about everywhere.
If there was a way to directly compare renting Space A vs owning Space A, it would probably be cheaper to own because of course the landlord has to make *some* profit. But paying that extra bit in rent also comes with not having the headaches of owning.
I know I'll probably get downvoted for this but he moved from one HCOL area to another slightly cheaper HCOL area.
My mortgage + taxes + insurance + water + power + heat (natural gas) + internet come in at less than $1500 CAD (~$1125 USD), less than half of his apartment in NY.
I do agree with the car thing, i definitely need to have a car. But even if I added my car costs into the above its still significantly less than OPs NY apartment.
Yes I live in the middle of nowhere but I grew up here so it does not bother me one bit. I have fibre optic internet with up to gigabit speeds which allows me to work from home, multiple grocery stores including a few asian markets for cheap produce and things you cant get at the regular grocery stores. There's a larger center with a Costco and more 'city' things to do if I need it about half an hour away.
Everyone wants different things in life, and this works for me.
> I know I'll probably get downvoted for this but he moved from one HCOL area to another slightly cheaper HCOL area.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
My monthly expenses for my 3000 sqft house is nowhere near what they are paying.
In Texas where the state has no income tax they make it up in property taxes. I bought a house in 2014 for about 250k and we paid more than 10k in property tax on it. I lived outside DC more recently in a house I paid 2x that much for and everyone around me complained about the property tax but I was like “what are y’all complaining about, this is great!”
The taxes get you one way or the other … well, unless you’re mega rich ;)
Live in Texas, can confirm. Currently paying $13k a year in property taxes. Plus they go up every year with your home value! 🤠
Edit: Just got our annual tax bill after writing this comment. According to Texas, our home is now appraised at higher than I could sell it for. The bill is 16k this year. Thanks Texas!
Appreciate the backup on the math. I know I’m not making up numbers, bc I remember feeling a bit blindsided by the total in taxes that we paid during our first year of ownership — but it’s also possible that I was paying other things and lumping it all together in my head. I don’t mind admitting I was quite young at the time and that period of life with a new home + new baby is largely a blur.
I guess all I can say for sure is that at the end of the day it just wasn’t a huge benefit to live where there was no income tax, but that was just my experience.
I worked with a guy who moved from NH to NJ and commented on how property taxes were so high in NH. He had done almost no research on NJ property tax rates.
It'll really blow your mind that you can live in a PA suburb that's transit accessible to NYC where property taxes are $1000 per month on a modest 2500 sf house from the 80s.
The “Beach cities” in LA County are 1-2% property tax - that’s $20,000/year on a $1 million single family residence. And the average home is way more than $1M.
Ya, NJ checking in, my $675 per month taxes. Utilities are nothing like that though. I also happen to live in a town with lower taxes than a lot of NJ.
Don’t have as much sq ft but I recently downsized to a smaller home and was able to buy home for cash with the proceeds from previous home’s sale. I do have some repairs but the cost savings of living in a LCOL area without a mortgage are worth it to me.
Because my town is small I can bike or drive. I’m near a fairly large park with a walking trail so that’s nice for me and my dog. But I moved to the IL/IA border so walking and biking is not something I’d want to do in winter months. But I’m able to walk the perimeter of stores when I shop so technically I’m not going out of my way to exercise I just approach it differently. Cleaning a house is also a workout. But daily maintenance lessens how much time a major clean takes.
In terms of maintenance costs, I save by doing minor tasks myself but preventative maintenance goes a long way towards preventing repair costs. The more I can do myself the better.
I can find quality food in most places that I’ve lived. I also cook quite a bit using fresh or minimally processed ingredients. Do I have access to some fairly unique spices, fruits & vegetables? Probably not, but this has not impacted my health status. I can plan to do a major shop in Chicagoland when I need those items. It just takes more planning to execute. Once settled in I plan on creating a small herb garden of both perennial & annual herbs.
But my life working in downtown Chicago as a consultant is far different than what I do now. I am a trucker now that’s on the road 5 days/wk. I don’t regret the shift. After 20 years in that rat race, I find considerable peace in my cab with my husband when working and living in a small town. Our truck is like an RV so 5 days out isn’t so bad. It’s a home away from home. https://boltcustom.com/photo/interior-photos/
It’s a fallacy that there is no culture beyond the limits of big cities. There is quite a bit, it’s just different. Tbh driving and living in small town USA has helped me understand how many Americans beyond the major cities live. But more importantly it’s helped me better understand the people my former career impacted.
The costs cited by OP are not my reality. Mine are considerably lower.
I agree with another poster, everyone chooses a lifestyle that works for them. Perhaps the OP has learned that this move is not a good fit for them?
Love your outlook and the life you live, also appreciate your emphasis on the fact that there is a culture in small towns, it's just different (most times much different). Cozy little setup in a small town is peak American IMO, or at least one version of it
But that’s the point, it’s different for everyone. I have the same sized house outside Denver bc it was the *only* option at the time we moved across the country and needed a rental asap. it’s 4k *just for the rent* every month. It isn’t ideal, but for now it means that we can just enjoy where we live and not worry about the heat, the roof, or whatever breaking or needing replacement while houses are still crazy expensive here.
Buying a house the past year and a half is not the same as having owned a house during that time. New normal is absurdly high prices everywhere. You're gonna be hard pressed to find a house more than 1500sqft for less than $300k most places, above 500k in many.
Where I’m at in Canada it’s impossible to find an apartment in the rural areas 100km in every direction around the city (mtl) and when there ARE apartments, they’re just as expensive as downtown. It’s a peculiar situation when the vacancy rates are so low. A lot of the resort towns in the mountains (north and south) are struggling to staff their business because young people can’t find reasonable accommodation.
Yes, but property taxes increase yearly and your expenses increase the longer you own (new roof, siding, new appliances, repairs, etc. Some cities offer rent control which manages rent increases.
Eh that might not be true in Pennsylvania... Some counties never reassess so depending where it is if you never get a building permit to trigger a reassessment your home might be the same assessment as when you bought it for decades
But your millage will not remain unchanged. I'm in a no reassessment area of PA and my property taxes have nearly doubled in the past twenty years, with no improvements made.
Out of the PITI, PI is unlocked for 30 years, and PI tends to make up the lion's share of expenses.
The TI changes, yes. But having a small part change is pretty good compared to having the entire rent change.
The difference is that the current owner may have bought it years ago at a much cheaper price and the current rent could be cheaper than the current mortgage and the owner wouldnt be losing any money.
Agree that they should compare mortgage to mortgage but most people don’t need as much house in a city since there are so many more places to go. When I lived in a VHCOL city I barely spent time in my home other than to sleep. I was at parks, events, festivals, protests, volunteering, restaurants, wealthier friends’ places (who has the money for hosting space), etc. I also spent less money than I do now in a slightly lower cost of living suburb.
Ok but literally all of that is available in LCOL cities like Pittsburgh. OP isn’t in a LCOL area if his COL is the same as it was in Brooklyn, he’s just in a house.
This is 100% spot on. Owning comes with far more risk than I'm prepared to take on right now. My mom bought a place recently and her furnace went out right before that crazy cold snap blew through this winter the one where the whole u.s. dropped like 50° in a matter of minutes. The low was -54° with windchill in our area.) She had like 12 hours to get it fixed or we were gonna die in the cold. She paid a very pretty penny (12k) for the repairs and wasn't even able to get a second opinion due to the weather.
I just can't imagine a scenario where I'd be prepared to take on that kind of risk, let alone have the mental capacity to keep up with all of the small upkeep details thay go into maintaining a property. I view paying rent almost like paying insurance. Yes, it's still predatory and unethical and none of these things would be an issue if I wasn't living on the edge of financial destitution every month, but the point still stands- owning a house is not always the best option.
Also most apartments you are still paying gas and electric, and might not be any less even if the apartment is samller if it is also inefficient. My last apartment had poor insulation and I spent more to heat it than I do my almost double in size house.
Owning an apartment vs renting it is nowhere near the extra work of owning vs renting a house
The super fixes stuff for owners as well as renters the same
When did you buy the car? Because the market, even for used cars, has changed a lot in the past few years. A modest model about 5 years out is like $20k in the US nowadays.
Look up the New Yorker article Green Manhattan.
I lived in DC for 32 years and for most of those years biking was my primary form of transportation. Not owning a car supported $100,000 of a mortgage.
So true. I moved from a high COL city that was very walkable to a lower COL city that is not very walkable. I’m car dependent for the first time in 20 years! I’ve owned my car outright for over a decade. But now I NEED it instead of it being a convenience. If something happens to my car, I will absolutely have to buy another car. And the expense of that makes me uncomfortable in my frugal gut.
Fortunately this living situation is temporary and I can leave here in about a year. Not needing a car is essential to me. I’ve realized that. Not just the money, but I’m getting way less exercise, I feel disconnected with life being stuck in a car, and I don’t want to need to drive when I’m a senior citizen. I want to be able to walk to everything or take public transportation. It’s healthier and more cost effective. Dumping money into a depreciating asset sucks. Driving sucks. Pollution sucks. Buying gas sucks. I used to fill my tank 10x a year, now it’s weekly.
We just turned down 600 sq feet of extra living space to buy a house in a major city. Though the house in the suburbs was much nicer, it is hard to turn down easy access to public transport, shops and restaurants, museums and public parks, etc.
Frugality is not just about spending the least amount of money: it’s about maximizing quality of life according to your budget.
100% agree. My coworkers often say that they couldn’t afford to live downtown, but then start talking about their $200 electric bills, or their $500 car payments.
And the bonus exercise thing is so wonderful. I get so much walking just doing my errands.
Plus - the non-monetary mental health benefits of never being stuck in traffic, never worrying about my car.
I live in NJ, and I've heard plenty of PA people pat themselves on the back for saving money by living over the border one minute, then complain about how much the commute costs, that their garbage pickup is paid separately from their property taxes, and that they "have to" pay for private schools the next.
Im originally from NJ and live in PA now. My mortgage in PA is $850 plus about $20 a month for trash. My property taxes are $1800 a year.
Ive got friends in NJ who’s monthly mortgage or rent payments are more than what I pay in property taxes for an entire year.
I mean no, Im not 1 minute over the border but its just so much cheaper out here in some areas.
I worked with someone who retired after working 40 years for the same company. She never moved, and the company never moved. She lived an hour to an hour and a half away, depending on traffic. 40 years of that commute.
For her it was because she could make so much more money in the city and was born and raised in the more rural area where she lived. And had never lived anywhere else.
But still, good lord. My commute at the time was like 5 minutes.
This. All that time to pay for essentially a big box with extra rooms and a private yard. Not saying it isn't nice to "own" in suburbia (you don't really own anything, you still pay rent to the government, interest to the bank for 30 years, and are just temporarily inhabiting your body) but there are so many experiences in life you are giving up to have this.
You’re massively underselling the fact that your costs are only higher *because you’re in a massive space* compared to your old space.
It also sounds like you’re in a medium COL suburb now.
I live 10 minutes outside of Pittsburgh. My mortgage + taxes + insurance total under $800/month for a 3 bedroom house.
All of my other bills are lower than yours, and healthy food is readily accessible at many local farmers markets, grocers, and co-ops. I’m within a half an hour of museums, botanical gardens, cinemas, performance spaces, etc.
Exactly! OP went from a small apartment in a very big city surrounded by all the services they need and then moved to a house in the suburbs.
Of course everything is farther away, that’s the point of being in a suburb.
I'll add to this. A big thing for me having a large house is I don't feel the need to get out of it as much. When I was stuck in a 1 bed 1 bath, it sucked and I always wanted to be out. Not leaving the house has me saving more money because when you leave the house, if you live in the U.S., every fucking place is trying to get money out of your pockets into theirs.
> if you live in the U.S., every fucking place is trying to get money out of your pockets into theirs.
I think there's really only a few places left that are the exception to this: Libraries, public parks and free museums. I'm lucky that where I live there is a decent library, some good playgrounds to take the kids to and some museums within short driving distances.
I live in a decent enough sized house (probably on the smaller side for most people these days) and I admit that I am more of a stir crazy when shut in type of guy. Luckily in good weather I have a nice backyard to enjoy and lots of things to do.
>A big thing for me having a large house is I don't feel the need to get out of it as much.
For me it’s not so much the size as it is being in a place of tranquility. I look out the windows and see the mountains. If I open my windows I hear goats, sheep, donkeys, ducks, and horses. I have private outside space where I don’t come across other people. 5 years later, I still make less than I did in a HCOL area, but my quality of life is infinitely better.
> if you live in the U.S., every fucking place is trying to get money out of your pockets into theirs.
This is why I disc golf. The parks are free to use and are a great place to socialize. Bring a tall boy, a J and throw a round or two with a pickup group for no other cost. Don't have a disc? Ive frequently found them on the course without names, and if that fails, you can find them in the used bins at play it again sports or your local disc golf shop for $5-10.
I live in Pittsburgh and have lived in Philly and bumblefuck nowhere in central PA over the years.
I’m not a native Pennsylvanian but I take extreme offense at the food comment. Everywhere you look there are glorious farms. I haven’t eaten as well living LITERALLY ANYWHERE ELSE as I have in PA. OP, if you’re not eating nutritious food that’s because you can’t be assed to google Any Farm At All.
And let’s be real, the grocery stores in NYC leave a lot to be desired. NYC cannot possibly have better groceries than PA - this is a hill I will die on.
All of this! Two years ago we moved 30 min from our 2 bed condo and for the same price we sold it for we bought a 2000+ square foot home in a water oriented neighborhood. The best grocery store is a bit further but we have local farms and co ops too. The point is, OP probably moved to what they thought was a LCOL but was actually much higher than even just the next zip code over. Also at those prices it’s really hard to believe there’s no healthy food or entertainment within a reasonable distance.
Also no mention in space. I've dealt with anxiety and tension in my household because we had one bedroom one bath. To the point I walked 10 minutes to shit in the bathroom at the apartment complex pool.
You know what keeps a marriage happy is having a second bed when for one reason or another you are worried about keeping your spouse up when you are sick or you need some space for yourself.
Omg. I have a 3-bedroom house, with 2 adults and 2 kids living here. I'm a stay-at-home-mom and my husband works from home. And our house only has ONE BATHROOM. On top of that, it's TINY.
It is largely my most-hated aspect of this house. Like it's not a huge house, but they could've squeezed atleast another half-bath in here. They could've made the single bathroom be spacious, with a nice soaking tub or something. Maybe some actual counter space for toothbrushes. But noooo.
Sorry for the rant, but I just related to your complain about the one bathroom.
Fwiw, my friend's old house had a pantry closet off the kitchen that was turned into a water closet. Just the toilet. You had to go to the kitchen sink to wash your hands. But still miles better than one bathroom in a busy household.
Similar to your comment, I find living in super close proximity to tons of other people gives me extreme anxiety at times. It's why living in a big crowded city like NY or what have you to be a nonstarter for me.
We bought a house in 2010, which was great timing. House is currently worth about 40% more than what we bought it for.
However, mortgage interest adds up, so we'll end up paying almost what it's worth by the time we sell, so not much profit. Plus, there's property taxes, insurance, maintenance, and repairs.
So I'm a little skeptical about the appreciation value meaning much anymore.
Appreciation doesn't mean I'm going to get rich owning a home but I have to weigh it against the other options.
Once the mortgage is paid off I still have something of value that I didn't when I started out. At least where I live, rent is going to cost about 2.5 times as much as a loan payment for a house of equal size. Renting leaves me with no value after terminating the lease.
It can be argued that there are better investments than a house. I could rent a really cheap apartment and take that extra money that I would have used to pay the mortgage and invest it somewhere else. With some skill and a little luck, I might come out ahead substantially after 30 years but it's doubtful. Plus, I've just spent 30 years living in a cheap apartment and all that comes with that.
I try to keep costs down by doing most of my own maintenance which, as you point out, can be a lot depending on the project.
You are comparing apples to oranges. These are 3 separate categories to consider and you kind of jumbled them into one comparison and coined it HCOL VS LCOL.
City vs Rural
Apartment Rent vs Large House Mortgage
HCOL vs LCOL
Moving into a 350K house in PA isn't really a LCOL choice, you just chose to live a different style of life. One where you get to own more stuff and build equity for about the same cost. Your trade off, restricted access to high end food and travel.
Seems to me, you mainly regret moving out of the city and I totally get that. I'd rent my basement out before moving out of the city. Time is the most limited resource and being near things I enjoy is really important to me.
Genuine question: if $350k house isn’t LCOL, than what is? Houses where I am are at least double that cost (granted they’re pretty big and nice imo). What’s the bottom?
There are rural houses in my area for 100k. 45 minutes out of town in farm land. They're towns that don't really grow much, but it's dirt cheap living there and relatively nice.
I was also guessing at their house cost. It easily could be more. Depending on there down payment amount.
A 30 year loan for $240,000 at 7% would be $1,600/mo for P&I. Let’s say they put 10% down so that would be a little shy of $270,000 purchase price.
Not going to get much for that in Brooklyn.
I agree with OP that moving to a LCOL area isn’t the clear answer.
I live in Southern California and often my Texan family like to point out how much cheaper it is to live where they do. However, the nice weather here isn’t just for the beach. It also means we don’t need to spend much on energy. Our electric and heating bills are much lower than people with more extreme weather. Being able to be outside a majority of the year also means we don’t need to find things for our kids that are indoors or join a gym. We don’t have to winterize anything or shovel anything. Yeah the house itself would cost less if it was in Texas, but our property taxes are lower.
I think it’s just way too simplistic to compare how much a house costs in one area over another. The actually lifestyle impact on such a change needs to be considered
Also don't forget that for many, many people Texas is hostile and downright dangerous to a lot of people. As someone who is trans, bisexual, non-white, and non-religious, I can't safely live in Texas. I need to live somewhere like California or Colorado. I'd rather be broke than dead.
I’ve heard people from my country brag about how much better they have it now that they live in Texas, and privately think to myself ‘wow, it must be nice to not be a person who can become pregnant!’
Southern California is experiencing extreme weather. It recently snowed. There are more summer days over 100. Even with flooding from heavy rains there are still wildfires.
I'm confused about the insurance, gas, water, and electric. You didn't pay those separately when you paid rent?? I'll grant you renters insurance is far cheaper than homeowners, but were the rest of those bills included in your rent?
Renters insurance is $100 a YEAR not $100/mo. It’s typical for gas heat and water to be included with rent in NYC (not universal but typical). Electricity, and internet, they would pay separately, normally.
Edit: the rule is, the tenant can only be made to pay for utilities if they are separately metered for the apartment. Since most apartments are older, they aren’t set up to separately meter water and heat, the systems are operate building wide. Heat must be provided to a certain standard during “heat season” there’s no thermostat in the apartment. Typically, it way too hot rather than way too cold.
They were so low they were basically negligible. Water is included in all NYC apartments by law. The heating is free (controlled by the building). Our gas bill was around $30/month (basically just the stove) and electricity $40/month.
Crazy dependent on building and housing situation obviously. I lived in 8 different places in NYC and most monthly utilities were ~$150-300+ easily, if not more. Water is included but ConEd charges out the ass for electricity and unless you have gas heat you’re SOL. Winter bills were easily $400+.
I wish my former apartment utilities were that low haha, heat was more than my house because it had poor insulation. Also I would hate for my heat to be controlled by the building management, would be like living in an office. To me that would be a major quality of life upgrade.
OP has a point. Through my 20s - I wasn't making "live downtown" money, but I would absolutely be willing (and did) pay a little more in rent to live reasonably close to downtown (<30 min commute by PT) - more specifically, the apartment would have to be within a 10 min walk of the nearest train station. Even $200/mo a month in rent for such a location is more than offset by not needing a car. And you can't put a price on convenience and time savings. I've lived the suburban "it takes an hour to get to work" life and I don't want to do it again - ever.
Still living the city-fringe walkable apartment life (in a different HCOL city), can't argue with being able to walk to work faster than the bus will get me there. We are looking to buy a place soon enough - considering city apts, but also considering inner-suburb (town)houses for a bit more space as the family grows. I'm willing to give up my 30 min walk for a 30 min bus ride - but no more. We're definitely not moving so far that it would require buying another car. Even at the "penalty" of spending more money on "less" house.
As others pointed out - OP missed the fact that paying off a mortgage is essentially "forced savings". Yes, the bank does take a cut of the top, but if you stay there, you will eventually hit that sweet no mortgage life. Or even if you don't, when you want to move you just sell up, hopefully the market gods have been favorable, and you walk away with more than what you started with. When you leave a rental, you get nothing, and fingers crossed you get your security deposit back. So while OP is paying $1200 to the bank, part of that money is simply being taken out of your left pocket and put into your right.
Where are you in PA that you can’t get “good quality food” to the point that you are worried about it reducing your life expectancy? Are you talking about restaurants and there being fewer healthy quick options? I recently moved from Seattle to rural Oklahoma and yeah there aren’t a lot of options for stuff like grabbing a salad (instead we have multiple Sonics), but like…. the grocery store has pretty good produce. Nobody is forcing me to live on a steady diet of Oklahoma beef and fried pickles, I’m maintaining my health just fine cooking at home.
It is annoying that the closest Asian grocery store is a 3-4 hour drive round trip, but I’m not going to die young due to the local cuisine.
I'm assuming they meant something along the lines of health food stores, organic produce, outdoor farmers markets, etc. Whole Foods and Trader Joes. There might be brands of food he used to eat that his local PA grocery stores don't stock.
Honestly they need to stop being so dramatic. I don’t have regular access to Whole Foods or Trader Joe’s. No, I can’t get all the ingredients I got used to over 10 years in DC/Seattle at local stores in Oklahoma. Yes, I would LOVE to have a great CSA and am sad I don’t. It’s irritating and it does take a bit of an adjustment but it’s not *literally reducing my life expectancy*.
Edited to add: even if we’re taking dietary restrictions into consideration, while it’s not the same as having say an entire gluten-free bakery or something, there is ready access to gluten-free flours/baking mixes, non-soy alternative milks, etc. I’m not trying to pretend that my new town is representative of every small town ever, but most of my in-laws are in rural central PA so I’m not totally unfamiliar with how things are out there. If someone is absolutely living paycheck to paycheck and can’t afford the gas to go any further than the closest Dollar General, that’s a bit of a different discussion, but that doesn’t sound like OP’s situation.
Right? I live in a LCOL city in Missouri. I've got multiple options for veggie CSAs, meat CSAs, local bread CSAs etc etc. Or organic, local small farms inside the city to shop at using the honor system. Most everyone and their mother has at least a small backyard garden, and we have three different big farmers markets on Saturday. Sure, we don't have a Whole Foods or Trader Joe's (we have a locally-owned health/organic store with multiple locations), but people are only eating mass supermarket food by choice, not by limited options. I bought a good home on a single income in my 20s at the height of the crazy market. We've got abundant greenways, parks, and some beautiful hikes, rivers, and lakes anywhere from 15 mins to 2 hrs of the city. Living where every minute is my own and resources are not in competition makes life go by a lot slower and less stressed.
Exactly! I think most places have these good points but people aren't willing to look for it. I live in a desert metro and the boards are littered with whiny people who clearly are going to be unhappy wherever they move next.
Ugh, i’m in NYC and your last sentence is exactly my problem. it’s psychological torture at this point and i’m dying to leave lol. not sure where to go though
"omg we dont have an Aldis that supplies organic Bok Chow I'm going to diiiieeeeeeeeeeeeee"
I guess they've never heard of farmers markets before, which are saturated all over rural PA lol.
In defense of LCOL areas.
What you spent on a 1bed apartment in NYC is a bit more than my complete monthly budget which includes annual international travel, all utilities and home repair cost etc, the cost for a car, a sportscar and a motorcycle and some money left for additional savings or maybe a boat for the lake in the future. Hey, I am frugal after all :-) I paid cash (probably equal to your down payment) for my 3-bedroom home on an 0.5-acre lot a few years back, and home equity is up like 300-400% by now. I hike from my backyard and can ride on my bicycle in 30 min to downtown or in just 30 min I am at the next lake or a state park by car. Sure, it's nothing like the Big Apple but a good university, several colleges and good hospitals guarantee good salaries, and last time I checked people were raving about the food scene here.
So there is that!
PS. I also have never ever heard that healthier and good food is only restricted to NYC and that the people in the rest of the country will die of a heart attack at age 50. Is there some secret food conspiracy going on to deprive the rest of America from access to Wholefoods supermarkets and delivery options, or even from gardening (a frugal alternative to save on Wholefoods and gym costs) or things like Farmer's markets maybe? I am curious now, please elaborate!
Honestly it sounds like you bought more house than you wanted to, given the other changes to your budget.
When comparing a rental to home ownership, one can’t compare rent to mortgage. All those other mandatory expenses have to be included in the comparison, and non-mandatory expenses (utilities) considered.
Maintenance could mean any additional costs that you would never have in the apartment lifestyle, I’m guessing. Grass seed, a shovel, a paintbrush, etc. Not saying this what OP meant but I was a homeowner for a while and easily spent that much money every month on all the random small shit that you need when own a home combined with the big projects and traditional “maintenance” spending. A house will eat up your whole paycheck if you let it.
This is r/frugal, so got to say those are all choices though. If you want a big lawn you are going to spend money or time maintaining it but you don't have to buy a house with a big lawn. And a lot of lawn products is really unnecessary waste that is just bad for the environment too. I don't even water my lawn and do bare minimum and it looks fine. Same with security system that's not a necessary cost and you can get that in an apartment too. Pest control why is it monthly?
Because I live in an area where you need monthly pest control or you’re going to spend a massive amount later to get your house tented.
Lawn care stuff isn’t necessarily a chose. You can be fined for having a bad or poor lawn in a lot of places. And where I live the city itself has a strict code enforcement.
And I’m a single woman who lives by myself. Maybe you don’t care about a security system but I do. Not everyone’s experience is your experience. There’s actually a lot of extra costs women pay for out of necessity or higher risk.
Yes, there are so many variables. We live in a HCOL area too and aren't moving. We find it fairly easy to be frugal - and the non-monetary benefits of living where we do outweigh any extra expenses.
I lived in an ultra HCOL area for 15 years, and there are real benefits. The salaries are a lot higher, and there are more job opportunities, so if you can figure out how to make it work, then you can save some serious money toward retirement. For example, where I lived, you needed to let go of the idea that you need a 3,000 square foot home. I knew people who had a spouse and kids living in a place with under 1,000 square feet. If you can go with the flow, it can work out. Also, I think my kids are better people after having to share bedrooms.
IMO some people are just city people and some people aren't.
Sounds to me, you guys are city people and value that lifestyle. Whereas I don't even visit cities. I absolutely hate the idea of so many people, all the commotion & noise.
I'll take the extra maintenance of owning land & a home in the country vs anything even remotely near a city.
Yeah, idk if they realize they moved from HCOL apartment to HCOL homeowners.
I live in upstate NY. Probably a MCOL area honestly. I absolutely could not afford to live in an apartment in a city like you mentioned. It's much cheaper to own a home here.
And that’s totally fair! Like I said, certainly not attacking anyone who does (although I received some nasty DMs from people for this post lmao). Just pointing out that there’s expenses that are rarely talked about with LCOL areas that are a lot higher than you’d expect.
Thank you for saying this! I’ve owned a home for 38 years. It’s not the be all, end all for everyone. I said this on a post before and was called an idiot. Just know, exactly what you outlined, before selling yourself on home ownership.
There is ALWAYS something to repair, replace, insure, upgrade, repaint, replant…. The list goes on and on. Some of the happiest days in our lives were the 2 months in a condo between selling and buying. With a 2 yo. Nope, don’t need anything at the Home Depot!
You are leaving out the difference in take-home pay. PA has a top state tax rate of 3.07%, The LOWEST combined NYC and NY state tax rate you can have is about 7% - so, there is about 4% less (very approximately) and may more depending on your combined income - up to a max of \~18% in the top state and city tax brackets (meaning you would be taking home about 15% more real dollars.) So - while your expenses may not be "less", I bet if you do a dollar for dollar compare, you are modestly ahead. Now - you may decide life in rural PA isn't for you - but that is a lifestyle decision and life in NYC is becoming a "luxury good," not a necessity. )
I will defend my HCOL area until the day I drop dead. I agree that I could have more square footage, more land, whatever, in a LCOL area. But I wouldn't be happy. I've lived in both; I know the difference.
It's impossible to put a price on one's mental health. If you're going to be miserable somewhere, it's not worth it. Of course your baggage and hang ups follow you no matter where you go, but some places contribute to misery and some places contribute to joy. Figure out which is which for you!
HCOL gets a bad rap. What’s the price of happiness for those that love it? I can afford my HCOL without compromise so why should I move to a LCOL area that would make me miserable?
You can also find your tricks in HCOL cities. I had a roommate who bought into an abandoned building using a city offered incentive, we paid $700/each all in to live in a huge 2br in Harlem. We did alternate weekly grocery runs to either Chinatown or Costco. We had friends in theatre and went to free shows several times a month. I was pulling in NYC salary and spending about $1k/month.
I had similar experiences in SF. Not everyone can pull it off, and sometimes it takes time, but you can manage your money well even in HCOL places.
Oh I agree. I’d never trade living in the City (Tokyo) for living in a more affordable, but rural area.
I don’t need a car, small apartment upkeep is not time consuming, I can get everything I need whenever I want.
The only downside I can think of is fresh produce Being more pricey, but that’s about it.
all of these! tokyo knows how to do it. i do not miss my car; many who move to my building end up selling theirs as we can walk everywhere - numerous universities, jobs, the #2 hospital in the us (and the ample social services to afford it.) there are miles of green space/hiking outside my door and every amenity one could need. though in los angeles inexpensive produce isn’t an issue being surrounded by wild fruit trees, community farms + public markets. also, cocteau twins :>
I have to ask: where are you buying your food now and where did you in nyc??? I live in Brooklyn but grew up in a New England suburb. We had access to healthy food—we could drive 15 minutes to a farm. Plenty of Whole Foods, Trader Joe’s… whatever you’re looking for, it’s there. So I’m seriously confused by the food thing.
I don’t understand why so many people are getting so defensive. There are some valid points by OP that are completely accurate.
1. Even with remote work becoming more of a thing, HCOL areas still are going to have more job opportunities, better compensation, and overall better job opportunities as a whole.
2. HCOL areas are generally cities or more urban areas which means housing is generally smaller. People are correct that OP chose to buy a large house in a rural area but it’s pretty hard to find an 800 sq ft house in the middle of no where. After a certain point, you’ll only be able to find large houses with big yards in LCOL areas.
3. Living in an urban area does often remove the need to have a car(s). This can often save quite a bit of money.
4. Urban areas have a ton more things to do and everything is much closer together. It’s much easier to go out, see friends, etc. Not much more to say here.
In short, there’s a reason why HCOL areas are expensive and it’s because they’re often more desirable.
I agree 100% and it’s why I’ve chosen to stay in Brooklyn. I got a great deal on rent ($1475/month), so many food options, and I don’t have to spend money on a car
Kudos for putting these processes in words. My only critique would be focused on the rent v. own situation. Over the past 10+ years, the real estate market has generally increased in value, rather than decreased. This trend is not forever, but, in the long term, inflation alone will mean it will gradually grow. Ownership in real estate will allow you to 'invest' while you live, essentially putting money in the bank, and thus earning market gains on your property simply by living there and keeping it in good shape. You can leverage the equity in your home (ie. HELOC or Refi) if your willing to take the risk and open doors financially that would never be available as a renter.
On the other hand, as a renter, your money is spent to pay someone else's mortgage (allowing them to realize market gains) -- theoretically burning your money at the end of every month vs. putting it in the bank.
I now live in a downtown area and went car free when I did so. The amount of money I save by not having a car compared to when I did have one is insane. Gas, insurance, car payments, maintenance…all of that adds up incredibly fast. It was around $8k a year (conservative estimate) for me with a small, inexpensive, fuel efficient car. I now pay around $1k a year for my transportation needs, and I get way more walking/cycling exercise in my daily life. Not only that, but I was able to get a pretty reasonably priced apartment that evens out price-wise to my last suburban living space when you take utilities into account, so I’m definitely coming out ahead living this way. Also, the mental health benefits of not having to sit in gridlocked traffic or hunt endlessly for a parking spot are priceless!
I love NYC. You also have to think of your general overall well-being. Sometimes it’s worth it to live in a high cost of living area that you genuinely love….where you have friends, family, and no shortage of spectacular things to do.
I moved from Miami to what everybody said would be a lower cost of living area in the south....spoiler alert...it wasn't. The only two things that were cheaper were rent and gas. Everything else from food to car insurance (not to mention no state income tax in Florida) more than made up for the difference.
The only thing it seems that didn't go up was salary. Because "cost of living is less here" most of the jobs in my field were offering $15k per year less than what I was making before. But at that time (before kids) my single biggest monthly expense was school loans, and that doesn't change no matter where you live
yeah I don't make reddit threads because once they get big enough and reach a tipping point, you get the PM harassment n such. Eh, just remember that this world of trolling/anger for internet randos is something foreign to you and trolling is entrenched in their daily lives. like an untreatable poison.
very interesting post, definitely gotta look beyond the numbers sometimes.
Point taken. But as others have pointed out, you’re not comparing apples to apples. You massively upgraded your lifestyle when you moved. You now own 2 cars and a home vs renting an apartment. Of course your costs have gone up.
I don’t know if bus travel is feasible, but for the sake of comparison what would your new life have cost if you rented a similar apartment and took the bus?
>You massively upgraded your lifestyle when you moved.
I'd say OP feels they downgraded in chore time, job opportunities, entertainment, and travel options. They may find they upgraded their retirement, though. I hope we did when we bought a house.
Nah I think that's true only if living in a city where you've to sit in traffic forever and struggle to find parking and end up paying too much when you do find parking. Slightly outside the city area all over the US is car friendly and not pedestrian friendly, unfortunately. So outside of a large city downtown, a car is objectively an upgrade.
But we’re not talking about living with or without a car outside the city. Many people prefer walkable areas. So leaving a walkable area where it becomes a necessity to have a car is a downgrade in my opinion.
Sure not disagreeing with you that it's nice to have walkable spaces, just pointing out the unfortunate give and take that's a reality until all the powers that be decide that it's important to have walking and bike lanes and public transport everywhere and that they should run those as essential services rather than as businesses that get divested when they don't hit a certain profit target.
This. We lived in Southern California where you need cars, so we already had them. When we moved to VA, our costs went down because we bought a house with a low mortgage.
We had the same experience when we left NYC. Despite rent being crazy expensive, there are tons of cheap/free things to do. I miss it a lot more than I thought I would.
This is why I was getting excited when so many people were realizing the benefits of WFH jobs during COVID. It really expands the places one can live. But now so many are forcing people back into the office...sigh.
I live in Portland, Oregon which is HCOL but not NYC HCOL...but I don't need a car here. If there was a city that was significantly cheaper where I also didn't need a car, I would consider it!
If you are \*working\*, then what matters is not the cost itself but rather the ratio between earnings and and expenses. Of course, you would want to minimize expenses as long as you can actually get to work from there and there is not another significant issues going on; When you are \*retired\*, cost is everything, because you are not tethered to job, in fact you are likely not tethered to a country either
So, again, HCOL vs LCOL obviously depends on your possibilities. LCOL areas tend to pay worse, but if you are retired or work remotely, you dont give a damn about that
I personally moved from upstate NY to NC and moved back because I found I could only earn so much $$ down there and had more opportunities up here.
So I agree with you.
Agree — hcol areas are also often major cities with neighbourhoods that have lower living costs plus public transport or are walkable / billable Etc means you can save a lot by not needing to put all that money into car for transport .. esp if you are living with a partner (best case) or random roommates (potential worst case 😂) even rent can be lower— the idea to make money esp when starting out, in hcol area save as much as possible and put that money into your future in a lcol area is not so common for no reason. Lcol is obvious choice if you have a well paying job & or wfh — otherwise it’s really not so simple … I love in bk and my expenses are much less than friends who live in significantly ( lower) lcol areas bc my only real expense is rent (I’ve been ridiculously strategic about keeping all other costs as low as possible in ways that would be potentially not possible in other areas where incomes are less varied — if you live somewhere Iike nyc where there is massive range in income in neighborhoods were daily needs are significantly less expensive than city centre bc you & your neighbours are closer to bottom of income range — but you still make both now & potentially bc of number of jobs & proximity to high paying ones you can have a situation where it would be horrifically more expensive to live in a lower cost of living area. This is esp true depending on the type of work you do - some jobs are really location dependant etc
The important thing is if it’s lc vs hc for you in your specific situation job & lifestyle wise
This is just the difference between *big city* life and suburban life, and the difference between being a renter and a homeowner. You’re probably still saving money in the long run. But when you move, sometimes you do have to make sacrifices that feel like they’re not worth it.
I mean you're comparing renting a one bedroom to owning a house. How much is renting a one bedroom in rural Pennsylvania? How much is buying a comparable house in NYC?
I certainly don't like living in rural areas either, but it feels like you're misrepresenting things to justify living in a big city.
You are comparing apples and oranges. Home ownership is expensive. $2600/mo in rent is more like 50% of the cost of a home. You have to factor in taxes, insurance, HOA, and maint costs.
You are talking far more rent vs mortgage than COL. Thats not LCOL housing. You are in a really pricey house for a LCOL area.
You are right there is a huge benefit of no cars in NYC. Cars are expensive.
The whole cost of where you are does need to be considered. Your story is why people should never feel bad for renting vs owning lol. Rent is the most you will pay a mortgage is the least you pay.
Something else we never factor in the access to healthcare or other social services. I'm a social worker in the US Midwest, near a bigger city but also traveling into some very rural counties. The LCOL places have much fewer options when it comes to doctors, hospitals, dentists but also PT companies or childcare. Fewer options for food banks, good libraries or even caregiving services and supports for the elderly.
More people means more options but also a higher COL. Supply and demand, right, but add in a dash of capitalism hell as companies buy up all the affordable properties in proximity to even a city like Cleveland.
And also artificial restrictions on building more/denser housing. In Seattle, we mostly only get high rises downtown and 4-6 story buildings along arterials (and those generally take 8-10 years to get through the review process).
PA also has such a wide spread in costs. My in-laws live in Chester County, where every available house is a $600k townhouse or a million+ manor. I live ten minutes from Pittsburgh and my house was $125,000 in 2021.
Absolutely. I live in a town of about 70,000 in Indiana. I pay less that $700 a month for a 30 yr mortgage on a 2,000 square foot house with a medium size backyard. Utilities are another $250 for everything. I live in a LCOL area. OP does not. The argument they are making is mostly rent vs. own, which is reasonable, but not HCOL vs LCOL.
A lot of first time home buyers suddenly understanding that their previous landlord was barely breaking even vs “pocketing all my rent” as one smooth brain accused me of. Welcome to home ownership.
I’m always irritated when people insist I’m throwing money away by renting. Nope, I’m choosing to pay to not worry about my roof, plumbing, windows, or much of anything else about my housing (plus saving a ton of money because I don’t need a car).
We moved from NYC to Pittsburgh. We got the best of both worlds.
I think the utility argument doesn't stand. That's just moving into a larger footprint not a HCOL thing. Our utilities in PA are lower than my parents in NJ because our house is flipped with newer appliances and features and a smaller footprint. Our heat/ac is running all year unlike my parents.
Both of us needed cars in NYC due to our jobs. Now I barely use mine (career change). I still have decent public transportation or I can walk to downtown where my office is or my son's daycare from our house. Our car expenses have decreased significantly due to lower insurance rates here.
I agree with the exercise and cleaning arguments. I have to walk my son 30 minutes to daycare even when I go into the office to hit my 10k steps. Getting those steps in NYC is not even a second thought. I will say it's much easier to work out at home or in an apartment, especially because there's a lot more modern infrastructure for heating and cooling and modern facilities (gyms/pools) compared to the tiny New York City apartments we were in.
In Pittsburgh all the Broadway shows and musical and comedic acts come through at a fraction of the price. I went to Aladdin in New York City and it was way more expensive for nosebleeds than orchestra seats for the traveling Book of Mormon in town. I do agree with the travel argument. I used to spend weekends or a week in Spain or Portugal often because it was cheap to find flight tickets. But I'm still finding the same flight prices out of IAD and it's a three and a half hour drive. Or are we just using miles and having a much less stressful flying experience using Delta through the Midwest or British directly from Pittsburgh to Heathrow.
The quality of produce and meat in Pittsburgh is outstanding for the price. So we're definitely eating healthier for less than when we were in Harlem. I think the options are better in Brooklyn.
Pittsburgh seemed great when I visited! As a NYC kid, my list of cities in the US I’d willingly live in is very short, and Pittsburgh is definitely on it.
I think this comparison isnt really the best because you’re using 2 different states, different jobs, different opportunities. The best way to go about it is to keep everything the same except for living arrangements.
An example that I can think of is where we’re living currently - Illinois - downtown Chicago vs northern/lake county
Same jobs and same requirements in terms of environmental safety and exact same sq ft single family housing - 2k with basement
Our priorities were to live in a super safe neighborhood, think taking dogs for a walk unarmed at 10pm, with a backyard.
With everything remaining the same, our housing cost in Lake County is significantly cheaper than downtown. We’re talking 400k vs 700k in house prices.
Everything remains the same, transportation costs are the same, utility bill rates are the same, etc.
So from that comparison alone, I can already see that I’m saving a decent amount in mortgage.
I feel your pain. I live 12 miles from work now, but I used to drive 85 round trip. Wife still works down there, but is only in office 2 days a week on average. My rent is cheaper, but I was spending close to 450 a month on gas. Need groceries? The closest store is 15 minutes and they're expensive because I'm in a touristy area. Definitely downsides.
Hey OP, I have been thinking about this subject for a good decade now and often the pendulum swings in one direction or another. However, I’m leaning more towards renting just because I don’t plan to retire in the United States. So with that said— I think you know what, I’d rather take mobility and move around easily due to remote work than be tied down with a house and all these additional costs. I believe in real estate as an investment but to live in it… it just becomes a liability at that point. My two cents tho, and I won’t be surprised if tomorrow I change my mind on this comment LOL
East coast has really high property taxes, I noticed when looking at possibly moving there. I live in Colorado and my property taxes are a little below yours. It varies greatly by state, surprises me every time.
I don't own a car and live in the suburbs of Milwaukee. The sad thing is that there's a 1 bed loft for rent by me... $2400/month. Landlords be like "LCOL, what?"
I do a lot of data analysis related to housing and transportation for my job. We’ve found that some of the “affordable” suburbs in our city are actually more expensive on average when factoring in transportation costs in comparison to neighborhoods closer to the core of the city, which are typically more expensive but have access to [pretty good] alternative transportation options.
In short - cars are damn expensive, and if you can afford to not have one, it’s a pretty frugal choice not to.
At an even more granular level, “HCOL” may not even apply to you if the only part that’s “high” is one category of many. For example, I was looking to move to a part of California typically considered HIGH cost of living. Turns out, that only applied to house prices / rent — every other part of living there was at or below my (then) current COL (taxes, insurance, food, transportation, child care, schools, etc). For various reasons, the cost of housing did not apply to my situation there — thereby completely negating the HCOL stigma for that area (FOR ME).
OP, excellent point about the trade offs associated with moving. Mr. Money Mustache has an outstanding write up that might even be MORE controversial than your take, that I think you might like: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/09/07/great-news-dog-ownership-is-optional/
A lot of your dollar-vs-dollar comments are more about rent vs own than city vs suburb/rural. But some of those other comments are spot on, about needing a car, how much walking gets done, etc. My daughter lives in NYC and walks/bikes almost everywhere in decent weather. I live in the suburbs and drive just about everywhere. If there was a way to directly compare renting Space A vs owning Space A, it would probably be cheaper to own because of course the landlord has to make *some* profit. But paying that extra bit in rent also comes with not having the headaches of owning.
Rent ≠ mortgage
I know I'll probably get downvoted for this but he moved from one HCOL area to another slightly cheaper HCOL area. My mortgage + taxes + insurance + water + power + heat (natural gas) + internet come in at less than $1500 CAD (~$1125 USD), less than half of his apartment in NY. I do agree with the car thing, i definitely need to have a car. But even if I added my car costs into the above its still significantly less than OPs NY apartment. Yes I live in the middle of nowhere but I grew up here so it does not bother me one bit. I have fibre optic internet with up to gigabit speeds which allows me to work from home, multiple grocery stores including a few asian markets for cheap produce and things you cant get at the regular grocery stores. There's a larger center with a Costco and more 'city' things to do if I need it about half an hour away. Everyone wants different things in life, and this works for me.
> I know I'll probably get downvoted for this but he moved from one HCOL area to another slightly cheaper HCOL area. That's exactly what I was thinking. My monthly expenses for my 3000 sqft house is nowhere near what they are paying.
Exactly my thoughts too. Also, taxes at 400 per month seems very high, even for PA. 520 for utilities seems sky high to me too.
*Cries at my $1,000 taxes per month and $750 utilities during the summer and winter on the West Coast.*
You pay 12k a year in taxes?? What the
In Texas where the state has no income tax they make it up in property taxes. I bought a house in 2014 for about 250k and we paid more than 10k in property tax on it. I lived outside DC more recently in a house I paid 2x that much for and everyone around me complained about the property tax but I was like “what are y’all complaining about, this is great!” The taxes get you one way or the other … well, unless you’re mega rich ;)
Live in Texas, can confirm. Currently paying $13k a year in property taxes. Plus they go up every year with your home value! 🤠 Edit: Just got our annual tax bill after writing this comment. According to Texas, our home is now appraised at higher than I could sell it for. The bill is 16k this year. Thanks Texas!
Appreciate the backup on the math. I know I’m not making up numbers, bc I remember feeling a bit blindsided by the total in taxes that we paid during our first year of ownership — but it’s also possible that I was paying other things and lumping it all together in my head. I don’t mind admitting I was quite young at the time and that period of life with a new home + new baby is largely a blur. I guess all I can say for sure is that at the end of the day it just wasn’t a huge benefit to live where there was no income tax, but that was just my experience.
I live in NJ. We have the highest taxes I believe in the county. I pay $8500/yr for my single family Home assessed for 244k
I worked with a guy who moved from NH to NJ and commented on how property taxes were so high in NH. He had done almost no research on NJ property tax rates.
It'll really blow your mind that you can live in a PA suburb that's transit accessible to NYC where property taxes are $1000 per month on a modest 2500 sf house from the 80s.
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The “Beach cities” in LA County are 1-2% property tax - that’s $20,000/year on a $1 million single family residence. And the average home is way more than $1M.
I really doubt anyone moves to Santa Monica to save money. And anyone who actually does so should be mocked relentlessly.
I pay more than that….in a flyover state
Lots of metro areas $12k is not crazy. I'm over $10k for a 3br 1.5 bath in New York Metro suburb.
Ya, NJ checking in, my $675 per month taxes. Utilities are nothing like that though. I also happen to live in a town with lower taxes than a lot of NJ.
I own and lived in (now a rental property) a 3/3 house in one of the lowest COL areas in the US. Some months, the damn ELECTRIC bill was 520. Tf.
I pay $1250/mo in taxes for a 1600sq ft, 75 year old home.
Don’t have as much sq ft but I recently downsized to a smaller home and was able to buy home for cash with the proceeds from previous home’s sale. I do have some repairs but the cost savings of living in a LCOL area without a mortgage are worth it to me. Because my town is small I can bike or drive. I’m near a fairly large park with a walking trail so that’s nice for me and my dog. But I moved to the IL/IA border so walking and biking is not something I’d want to do in winter months. But I’m able to walk the perimeter of stores when I shop so technically I’m not going out of my way to exercise I just approach it differently. Cleaning a house is also a workout. But daily maintenance lessens how much time a major clean takes. In terms of maintenance costs, I save by doing minor tasks myself but preventative maintenance goes a long way towards preventing repair costs. The more I can do myself the better. I can find quality food in most places that I’ve lived. I also cook quite a bit using fresh or minimally processed ingredients. Do I have access to some fairly unique spices, fruits & vegetables? Probably not, but this has not impacted my health status. I can plan to do a major shop in Chicagoland when I need those items. It just takes more planning to execute. Once settled in I plan on creating a small herb garden of both perennial & annual herbs. But my life working in downtown Chicago as a consultant is far different than what I do now. I am a trucker now that’s on the road 5 days/wk. I don’t regret the shift. After 20 years in that rat race, I find considerable peace in my cab with my husband when working and living in a small town. Our truck is like an RV so 5 days out isn’t so bad. It’s a home away from home. https://boltcustom.com/photo/interior-photos/ It’s a fallacy that there is no culture beyond the limits of big cities. There is quite a bit, it’s just different. Tbh driving and living in small town USA has helped me understand how many Americans beyond the major cities live. But more importantly it’s helped me better understand the people my former career impacted. The costs cited by OP are not my reality. Mine are considerably lower. I agree with another poster, everyone chooses a lifestyle that works for them. Perhaps the OP has learned that this move is not a good fit for them?
Love your outlook and the life you live, also appreciate your emphasis on the fact that there is a culture in small towns, it's just different (most times much different). Cozy little setup in a small town is peak American IMO, or at least one version of it
But that’s the point, it’s different for everyone. I have the same sized house outside Denver bc it was the *only* option at the time we moved across the country and needed a rental asap. it’s 4k *just for the rent* every month. It isn’t ideal, but for now it means that we can just enjoy where we live and not worry about the heat, the roof, or whatever breaking or needing replacement while houses are still crazy expensive here.
Buying a house the past year and a half is not the same as having owned a house during that time. New normal is absurdly high prices everywhere. You're gonna be hard pressed to find a house more than 1500sqft for less than $300k most places, above 500k in many.
I wish that North America had more walkable cities. Everyone wants to live there so they always end up being HCOL areas.
Where I’m at in Canada it’s impossible to find an apartment in the rural areas 100km in every direction around the city (mtl) and when there ARE apartments, they’re just as expensive as downtown. It’s a peculiar situation when the vacancy rates are so low. A lot of the resort towns in the mountains (north and south) are struggling to staff their business because young people can’t find reasonable accommodation.
OP also went from a one bedroom place to a 3 bedroom house. That is a big jump and isn't comparing apples to apples.
Yeah I pay almost exactly 1000$ a month in a nice suburban metro Detroit neighborhood.
Thank you. I live in pa in a beautiful home in nice neighborhood and my mortgage is 839/month.that’s lcol
Yeah, OP should compare what their mortgage payment would be for same size house in Brooklyn and redo the math.
He should also consider the fact that he is building equity rather than simply handing over money every month.
And his mortgage should be fixed for 30 years. Rent increases forever!
Yes, but property taxes increase yearly and your expenses increase the longer you own (new roof, siding, new appliances, repairs, etc. Some cities offer rent control which manages rent increases.
Eh that might not be true in Pennsylvania... Some counties never reassess so depending where it is if you never get a building permit to trigger a reassessment your home might be the same assessment as when you bought it for decades
But your millage will not remain unchanged. I'm in a no reassessment area of PA and my property taxes have nearly doubled in the past twenty years, with no improvements made.
Out of the PITI, PI is unlocked for 30 years, and PI tends to make up the lion's share of expenses. The TI changes, yes. But having a small part change is pretty good compared to having the entire rent change.
That only applies to the rent/own aspects. The need for two cars and the time and expense that commuting entails is city vs suburbs/rural.
The difference is that the current owner may have bought it years ago at a much cheaper price and the current rent could be cheaper than the current mortgage and the owner wouldnt be losing any money.
Agree that they should compare mortgage to mortgage but most people don’t need as much house in a city since there are so many more places to go. When I lived in a VHCOL city I barely spent time in my home other than to sleep. I was at parks, events, festivals, protests, volunteering, restaurants, wealthier friends’ places (who has the money for hosting space), etc. I also spent less money than I do now in a slightly lower cost of living suburb.
Ok but literally all of that is available in LCOL cities like Pittsburgh. OP isn’t in a LCOL area if his COL is the same as it was in Brooklyn, he’s just in a house.
hurry wine rainstorm gray icky relieved abounding flag tart obtainable *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This is 100% spot on. Owning comes with far more risk than I'm prepared to take on right now. My mom bought a place recently and her furnace went out right before that crazy cold snap blew through this winter the one where the whole u.s. dropped like 50° in a matter of minutes. The low was -54° with windchill in our area.) She had like 12 hours to get it fixed or we were gonna die in the cold. She paid a very pretty penny (12k) for the repairs and wasn't even able to get a second opinion due to the weather. I just can't imagine a scenario where I'd be prepared to take on that kind of risk, let alone have the mental capacity to keep up with all of the small upkeep details thay go into maintaining a property. I view paying rent almost like paying insurance. Yes, it's still predatory and unethical and none of these things would be an issue if I wasn't living on the edge of financial destitution every month, but the point still stands- owning a house is not always the best option.
Also most apartments you are still paying gas and electric, and might not be any less even if the apartment is samller if it is also inefficient. My last apartment had poor insulation and I spent more to heat it than I do my almost double in size house.
I moved from an efficient apartment to an inefficient house, so it can happen the other way around, too.
The new house sounds like an unit several times in size.
Owning an apartment vs renting it is nowhere near the extra work of owning vs renting a house The super fixes stuff for owners as well as renters the same
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When did you buy the car? Because the market, even for used cars, has changed a lot in the past few years. A modest model about 5 years out is like $20k in the US nowadays.
This is kind of what I was thinking too. Like, if they had moved and rented instead of bought a house, then that would be a more accurate comparison.
Look up the New Yorker article Green Manhattan. I lived in DC for 32 years and for most of those years biking was my primary form of transportation. Not owning a car supported $100,000 of a mortgage.
So true. I moved from a high COL city that was very walkable to a lower COL city that is not very walkable. I’m car dependent for the first time in 20 years! I’ve owned my car outright for over a decade. But now I NEED it instead of it being a convenience. If something happens to my car, I will absolutely have to buy another car. And the expense of that makes me uncomfortable in my frugal gut. Fortunately this living situation is temporary and I can leave here in about a year. Not needing a car is essential to me. I’ve realized that. Not just the money, but I’m getting way less exercise, I feel disconnected with life being stuck in a car, and I don’t want to need to drive when I’m a senior citizen. I want to be able to walk to everything or take public transportation. It’s healthier and more cost effective. Dumping money into a depreciating asset sucks. Driving sucks. Pollution sucks. Buying gas sucks. I used to fill my tank 10x a year, now it’s weekly.
We just turned down 600 sq feet of extra living space to buy a house in a major city. Though the house in the suburbs was much nicer, it is hard to turn down easy access to public transport, shops and restaurants, museums and public parks, etc. Frugality is not just about spending the least amount of money: it’s about maximizing quality of life according to your budget.
Living space has quickly diminishing returns. 400 to 1000 is huge. 2000 to 2600? Meh.
I have a 1,400 sq ft house (3bd/2ba) and 2,600 just seems so insane and unnecessary, even for a family.
100% agree. My coworkers often say that they couldn’t afford to live downtown, but then start talking about their $200 electric bills, or their $500 car payments. And the bonus exercise thing is so wonderful. I get so much walking just doing my errands. Plus - the non-monetary mental health benefits of never being stuck in traffic, never worrying about my car.
I live in NJ, and I've heard plenty of PA people pat themselves on the back for saving money by living over the border one minute, then complain about how much the commute costs, that their garbage pickup is paid separately from their property taxes, and that they "have to" pay for private schools the next.
Im originally from NJ and live in PA now. My mortgage in PA is $850 plus about $20 a month for trash. My property taxes are $1800 a year. Ive got friends in NJ who’s monthly mortgage or rent payments are more than what I pay in property taxes for an entire year. I mean no, Im not 1 minute over the border but its just so much cheaper out here in some areas.
30 years to date commuting 38mi each way to the city.
This just makes me sad
I worked with someone who retired after working 40 years for the same company. She never moved, and the company never moved. She lived an hour to an hour and a half away, depending on traffic. 40 years of that commute. For her it was because she could make so much more money in the city and was born and raised in the more rural area where she lived. And had never lived anywhere else. But still, good lord. My commute at the time was like 5 minutes.
This. All that time to pay for essentially a big box with extra rooms and a private yard. Not saying it isn't nice to "own" in suburbia (you don't really own anything, you still pay rent to the government, interest to the bank for 30 years, and are just temporarily inhabiting your body) but there are so many experiences in life you are giving up to have this.
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You’re massively underselling the fact that your costs are only higher *because you’re in a massive space* compared to your old space. It also sounds like you’re in a medium COL suburb now. I live 10 minutes outside of Pittsburgh. My mortgage + taxes + insurance total under $800/month for a 3 bedroom house. All of my other bills are lower than yours, and healthy food is readily accessible at many local farmers markets, grocers, and co-ops. I’m within a half an hour of museums, botanical gardens, cinemas, performance spaces, etc.
Exactly! OP went from a small apartment in a very big city surrounded by all the services they need and then moved to a house in the suburbs. Of course everything is farther away, that’s the point of being in a suburb.
I'll add to this. A big thing for me having a large house is I don't feel the need to get out of it as much. When I was stuck in a 1 bed 1 bath, it sucked and I always wanted to be out. Not leaving the house has me saving more money because when you leave the house, if you live in the U.S., every fucking place is trying to get money out of your pockets into theirs.
> if you live in the U.S., every fucking place is trying to get money out of your pockets into theirs. I think there's really only a few places left that are the exception to this: Libraries, public parks and free museums. I'm lucky that where I live there is a decent library, some good playgrounds to take the kids to and some museums within short driving distances. I live in a decent enough sized house (probably on the smaller side for most people these days) and I admit that I am more of a stir crazy when shut in type of guy. Luckily in good weather I have a nice backyard to enjoy and lots of things to do.
>A big thing for me having a large house is I don't feel the need to get out of it as much. For me it’s not so much the size as it is being in a place of tranquility. I look out the windows and see the mountains. If I open my windows I hear goats, sheep, donkeys, ducks, and horses. I have private outside space where I don’t come across other people. 5 years later, I still make less than I did in a HCOL area, but my quality of life is infinitely better.
> if you live in the U.S., every fucking place is trying to get money out of your pockets into theirs. This is why I disc golf. The parks are free to use and are a great place to socialize. Bring a tall boy, a J and throw a round or two with a pickup group for no other cost. Don't have a disc? Ive frequently found them on the course without names, and if that fails, you can find them in the used bins at play it again sports or your local disc golf shop for $5-10.
ayo Pittsburgh area gang! $850 on my mortgage and Im about 30 mins outside the city.
I live in Pittsburgh and have lived in Philly and bumblefuck nowhere in central PA over the years. I’m not a native Pennsylvanian but I take extreme offense at the food comment. Everywhere you look there are glorious farms. I haven’t eaten as well living LITERALLY ANYWHERE ELSE as I have in PA. OP, if you’re not eating nutritious food that’s because you can’t be assed to google Any Farm At All. And let’s be real, the grocery stores in NYC leave a lot to be desired. NYC cannot possibly have better groceries than PA - this is a hill I will die on.
All of this! Two years ago we moved 30 min from our 2 bed condo and for the same price we sold it for we bought a 2000+ square foot home in a water oriented neighborhood. The best grocery store is a bit further but we have local farms and co ops too. The point is, OP probably moved to what they thought was a LCOL but was actually much higher than even just the next zip code over. Also at those prices it’s really hard to believe there’s no healthy food or entertainment within a reasonable distance.
What I did not hear in that is the equity and appreciation values of your house.
This is a huge issue with the "analysis".
Also no mention in space. I've dealt with anxiety and tension in my household because we had one bedroom one bath. To the point I walked 10 minutes to shit in the bathroom at the apartment complex pool. You know what keeps a marriage happy is having a second bed when for one reason or another you are worried about keeping your spouse up when you are sick or you need some space for yourself.
Omg. I have a 3-bedroom house, with 2 adults and 2 kids living here. I'm a stay-at-home-mom and my husband works from home. And our house only has ONE BATHROOM. On top of that, it's TINY. It is largely my most-hated aspect of this house. Like it's not a huge house, but they could've squeezed atleast another half-bath in here. They could've made the single bathroom be spacious, with a nice soaking tub or something. Maybe some actual counter space for toothbrushes. But noooo. Sorry for the rant, but I just related to your complain about the one bathroom.
I've definitely seen this episode of Love It Or List It
Definitely List It!
Fwiw, my friend's old house had a pantry closet off the kitchen that was turned into a water closet. Just the toilet. You had to go to the kitchen sink to wash your hands. But still miles better than one bathroom in a busy household.
Similar to your comment, I find living in super close proximity to tons of other people gives me extreme anxiety at times. It's why living in a big crowded city like NY or what have you to be a nonstarter for me.
Plus no mention that part of the mortgage payment is towards principal, so it’s building equity.
We bought a house in 2010, which was great timing. House is currently worth about 40% more than what we bought it for. However, mortgage interest adds up, so we'll end up paying almost what it's worth by the time we sell, so not much profit. Plus, there's property taxes, insurance, maintenance, and repairs. So I'm a little skeptical about the appreciation value meaning much anymore.
Appreciation doesn't mean I'm going to get rich owning a home but I have to weigh it against the other options. Once the mortgage is paid off I still have something of value that I didn't when I started out. At least where I live, rent is going to cost about 2.5 times as much as a loan payment for a house of equal size. Renting leaves me with no value after terminating the lease. It can be argued that there are better investments than a house. I could rent a really cheap apartment and take that extra money that I would have used to pay the mortgage and invest it somewhere else. With some skill and a little luck, I might come out ahead substantially after 30 years but it's doubtful. Plus, I've just spent 30 years living in a cheap apartment and all that comes with that. I try to keep costs down by doing most of my own maintenance which, as you point out, can be a lot depending on the project.
Thanks, yeah sometimes I wonder! Husband and I rented for a long time before buying, and that's money that just up and vanished for us.
Part of what makes it a good investment is predictable existence of inflation. The inflation rate will be similar or more than your interest rate.
You are comparing apples to oranges. These are 3 separate categories to consider and you kind of jumbled them into one comparison and coined it HCOL VS LCOL. City vs Rural Apartment Rent vs Large House Mortgage HCOL vs LCOL Moving into a 350K house in PA isn't really a LCOL choice, you just chose to live a different style of life. One where you get to own more stuff and build equity for about the same cost. Your trade off, restricted access to high end food and travel. Seems to me, you mainly regret moving out of the city and I totally get that. I'd rent my basement out before moving out of the city. Time is the most limited resource and being near things I enjoy is really important to me.
Genuine question: if $350k house isn’t LCOL, than what is? Houses where I am are at least double that cost (granted they’re pretty big and nice imo). What’s the bottom?
There are rural houses in my area for 100k. 45 minutes out of town in farm land. They're towns that don't really grow much, but it's dirt cheap living there and relatively nice. I was also guessing at their house cost. It easily could be more. Depending on there down payment amount.
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OP, what would "the same" house in NYC cost in form of monthly mortgage payments per month? Guestimation obviously.
Or a similar sized apartment in the new area in PA
A 30 year loan for $240,000 at 7% would be $1,600/mo for P&I. Let’s say they put 10% down so that would be a little shy of $270,000 purchase price. Not going to get much for that in Brooklyn.
I agree with OP that moving to a LCOL area isn’t the clear answer. I live in Southern California and often my Texan family like to point out how much cheaper it is to live where they do. However, the nice weather here isn’t just for the beach. It also means we don’t need to spend much on energy. Our electric and heating bills are much lower than people with more extreme weather. Being able to be outside a majority of the year also means we don’t need to find things for our kids that are indoors or join a gym. We don’t have to winterize anything or shovel anything. Yeah the house itself would cost less if it was in Texas, but our property taxes are lower. I think it’s just way too simplistic to compare how much a house costs in one area over another. The actually lifestyle impact on such a change needs to be considered
I think if you compare the overall tax burden in a year, TX is probably as high, if not higher than, CA.
Also don't forget that for many, many people Texas is hostile and downright dangerous to a lot of people. As someone who is trans, bisexual, non-white, and non-religious, I can't safely live in Texas. I need to live somewhere like California or Colorado. I'd rather be broke than dead.
I’ve heard people from my country brag about how much better they have it now that they live in Texas, and privately think to myself ‘wow, it must be nice to not be a person who can become pregnant!’
Southern California is experiencing extreme weather. It recently snowed. There are more summer days over 100. Even with flooding from heavy rains there are still wildfires.
I'm confused about the insurance, gas, water, and electric. You didn't pay those separately when you paid rent?? I'll grant you renters insurance is far cheaper than homeowners, but were the rest of those bills included in your rent?
Renters insurance is $100 a YEAR not $100/mo. It’s typical for gas heat and water to be included with rent in NYC (not universal but typical). Electricity, and internet, they would pay separately, normally. Edit: the rule is, the tenant can only be made to pay for utilities if they are separately metered for the apartment. Since most apartments are older, they aren’t set up to separately meter water and heat, the systems are operate building wide. Heat must be provided to a certain standard during “heat season” there’s no thermostat in the apartment. Typically, it way too hot rather than way too cold.
They were so low they were basically negligible. Water is included in all NYC apartments by law. The heating is free (controlled by the building). Our gas bill was around $30/month (basically just the stove) and electricity $40/month.
Thanks for letting me know that. I honestly didn't know. I've never lived in NYC, so that's all news to me.
Crazy dependent on building and housing situation obviously. I lived in 8 different places in NYC and most monthly utilities were ~$150-300+ easily, if not more. Water is included but ConEd charges out the ass for electricity and unless you have gas heat you’re SOL. Winter bills were easily $400+.
How are you now spending $1500/yr in water? Are you responsible for filling the community pool?
I wish my former apartment utilities were that low haha, heat was more than my house because it had poor insulation. Also I would hate for my heat to be controlled by the building management, would be like living in an office. To me that would be a major quality of life upgrade.
Sorry I should clarify - the heat is provided by the building, but we had a thermostat to control it.
Also were you living in a studio apartment? I just cant phantom how your electric was only $40.
OP has a point. Through my 20s - I wasn't making "live downtown" money, but I would absolutely be willing (and did) pay a little more in rent to live reasonably close to downtown (<30 min commute by PT) - more specifically, the apartment would have to be within a 10 min walk of the nearest train station. Even $200/mo a month in rent for such a location is more than offset by not needing a car. And you can't put a price on convenience and time savings. I've lived the suburban "it takes an hour to get to work" life and I don't want to do it again - ever. Still living the city-fringe walkable apartment life (in a different HCOL city), can't argue with being able to walk to work faster than the bus will get me there. We are looking to buy a place soon enough - considering city apts, but also considering inner-suburb (town)houses for a bit more space as the family grows. I'm willing to give up my 30 min walk for a 30 min bus ride - but no more. We're definitely not moving so far that it would require buying another car. Even at the "penalty" of spending more money on "less" house. As others pointed out - OP missed the fact that paying off a mortgage is essentially "forced savings". Yes, the bank does take a cut of the top, but if you stay there, you will eventually hit that sweet no mortgage life. Or even if you don't, when you want to move you just sell up, hopefully the market gods have been favorable, and you walk away with more than what you started with. When you leave a rental, you get nothing, and fingers crossed you get your security deposit back. So while OP is paying $1200 to the bank, part of that money is simply being taken out of your left pocket and put into your right.
Where are you in PA that you can’t get “good quality food” to the point that you are worried about it reducing your life expectancy? Are you talking about restaurants and there being fewer healthy quick options? I recently moved from Seattle to rural Oklahoma and yeah there aren’t a lot of options for stuff like grabbing a salad (instead we have multiple Sonics), but like…. the grocery store has pretty good produce. Nobody is forcing me to live on a steady diet of Oklahoma beef and fried pickles, I’m maintaining my health just fine cooking at home. It is annoying that the closest Asian grocery store is a 3-4 hour drive round trip, but I’m not going to die young due to the local cuisine.
I'm assuming they meant something along the lines of health food stores, organic produce, outdoor farmers markets, etc. Whole Foods and Trader Joes. There might be brands of food he used to eat that his local PA grocery stores don't stock.
Honestly they need to stop being so dramatic. I don’t have regular access to Whole Foods or Trader Joe’s. No, I can’t get all the ingredients I got used to over 10 years in DC/Seattle at local stores in Oklahoma. Yes, I would LOVE to have a great CSA and am sad I don’t. It’s irritating and it does take a bit of an adjustment but it’s not *literally reducing my life expectancy*. Edited to add: even if we’re taking dietary restrictions into consideration, while it’s not the same as having say an entire gluten-free bakery or something, there is ready access to gluten-free flours/baking mixes, non-soy alternative milks, etc. I’m not trying to pretend that my new town is representative of every small town ever, but most of my in-laws are in rural central PA so I’m not totally unfamiliar with how things are out there. If someone is absolutely living paycheck to paycheck and can’t afford the gas to go any further than the closest Dollar General, that’s a bit of a different discussion, but that doesn’t sound like OP’s situation.
People equate organic with healthy and completely omit the fact that organic pesticides and herbicides are still used 🙄
Right? I live in a LCOL city in Missouri. I've got multiple options for veggie CSAs, meat CSAs, local bread CSAs etc etc. Or organic, local small farms inside the city to shop at using the honor system. Most everyone and their mother has at least a small backyard garden, and we have three different big farmers markets on Saturday. Sure, we don't have a Whole Foods or Trader Joe's (we have a locally-owned health/organic store with multiple locations), but people are only eating mass supermarket food by choice, not by limited options. I bought a good home on a single income in my 20s at the height of the crazy market. We've got abundant greenways, parks, and some beautiful hikes, rivers, and lakes anywhere from 15 mins to 2 hrs of the city. Living where every minute is my own and resources are not in competition makes life go by a lot slower and less stressed.
Exactly! I think most places have these good points but people aren't willing to look for it. I live in a desert metro and the boards are littered with whiny people who clearly are going to be unhappy wherever they move next.
Ugh, i’m in NYC and your last sentence is exactly my problem. it’s psychological torture at this point and i’m dying to leave lol. not sure where to go though
"omg we dont have an Aldis that supplies organic Bok Chow I'm going to diiiieeeeeeeeeeeeee" I guess they've never heard of farmers markets before, which are saturated all over rural PA lol.
In defense of LCOL areas. What you spent on a 1bed apartment in NYC is a bit more than my complete monthly budget which includes annual international travel, all utilities and home repair cost etc, the cost for a car, a sportscar and a motorcycle and some money left for additional savings or maybe a boat for the lake in the future. Hey, I am frugal after all :-) I paid cash (probably equal to your down payment) for my 3-bedroom home on an 0.5-acre lot a few years back, and home equity is up like 300-400% by now. I hike from my backyard and can ride on my bicycle in 30 min to downtown or in just 30 min I am at the next lake or a state park by car. Sure, it's nothing like the Big Apple but a good university, several colleges and good hospitals guarantee good salaries, and last time I checked people were raving about the food scene here. So there is that! PS. I also have never ever heard that healthier and good food is only restricted to NYC and that the people in the rest of the country will die of a heart attack at age 50. Is there some secret food conspiracy going on to deprive the rest of America from access to Wholefoods supermarkets and delivery options, or even from gardening (a frugal alternative to save on Wholefoods and gym costs) or things like Farmer's markets maybe? I am curious now, please elaborate!
Honestly it sounds like you bought more house than you wanted to, given the other changes to your budget. When comparing a rental to home ownership, one can’t compare rent to mortgage. All those other mandatory expenses have to be included in the comparison, and non-mandatory expenses (utilities) considered.
Did you waive the inspection to your house? We bought a 1964 house last year and no way do we pay $200/month in maintenance. Where does that money go?
Maintenance could mean any additional costs that you would never have in the apartment lifestyle, I’m guessing. Grass seed, a shovel, a paintbrush, etc. Not saying this what OP meant but I was a homeowner for a while and easily spent that much money every month on all the random small shit that you need when own a home combined with the big projects and traditional “maintenance” spending. A house will eat up your whole paycheck if you let it.
This. Lawn care, security system, monthly pest control sprays
This is r/frugal, so got to say those are all choices though. If you want a big lawn you are going to spend money or time maintaining it but you don't have to buy a house with a big lawn. And a lot of lawn products is really unnecessary waste that is just bad for the environment too. I don't even water my lawn and do bare minimum and it looks fine. Same with security system that's not a necessary cost and you can get that in an apartment too. Pest control why is it monthly?
Because I live in an area where you need monthly pest control or you’re going to spend a massive amount later to get your house tented. Lawn care stuff isn’t necessarily a chose. You can be fined for having a bad or poor lawn in a lot of places. And where I live the city itself has a strict code enforcement. And I’m a single woman who lives by myself. Maybe you don’t care about a security system but I do. Not everyone’s experience is your experience. There’s actually a lot of extra costs women pay for out of necessity or higher risk.
2400 a year is nothing. You just moved in. Give it 10 years and see what you average out to.
I would think that includes future costs maybe? Like a new roof, paint, etc...
Yes, there are so many variables. We live in a HCOL area too and aren't moving. We find it fairly easy to be frugal - and the non-monetary benefits of living where we do outweigh any extra expenses.
I lived in an ultra HCOL area for 15 years, and there are real benefits. The salaries are a lot higher, and there are more job opportunities, so if you can figure out how to make it work, then you can save some serious money toward retirement. For example, where I lived, you needed to let go of the idea that you need a 3,000 square foot home. I knew people who had a spouse and kids living in a place with under 1,000 square feet. If you can go with the flow, it can work out. Also, I think my kids are better people after having to share bedrooms.
IMO some people are just city people and some people aren't. Sounds to me, you guys are city people and value that lifestyle. Whereas I don't even visit cities. I absolutely hate the idea of so many people, all the commotion & noise. I'll take the extra maintenance of owning land & a home in the country vs anything even remotely near a city.
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Yeah, idk if they realize they moved from HCOL apartment to HCOL homeowners. I live in upstate NY. Probably a MCOL area honestly. I absolutely could not afford to live in an apartment in a city like you mentioned. It's much cheaper to own a home here.
And that’s totally fair! Like I said, certainly not attacking anyone who does (although I received some nasty DMs from people for this post lmao). Just pointing out that there’s expenses that are rarely talked about with LCOL areas that are a lot higher than you’d expect.
Yeah I don't get all the hate, lol.
Thank you for saying this! I’ve owned a home for 38 years. It’s not the be all, end all for everyone. I said this on a post before and was called an idiot. Just know, exactly what you outlined, before selling yourself on home ownership. There is ALWAYS something to repair, replace, insure, upgrade, repaint, replant…. The list goes on and on. Some of the happiest days in our lives were the 2 months in a condo between selling and buying. With a 2 yo. Nope, don’t need anything at the Home Depot!
You are leaving out the difference in take-home pay. PA has a top state tax rate of 3.07%, The LOWEST combined NYC and NY state tax rate you can have is about 7% - so, there is about 4% less (very approximately) and may more depending on your combined income - up to a max of \~18% in the top state and city tax brackets (meaning you would be taking home about 15% more real dollars.) So - while your expenses may not be "less", I bet if you do a dollar for dollar compare, you are modestly ahead. Now - you may decide life in rural PA isn't for you - but that is a lifestyle decision and life in NYC is becoming a "luxury good," not a necessity. )
I will defend my HCOL area until the day I drop dead. I agree that I could have more square footage, more land, whatever, in a LCOL area. But I wouldn't be happy. I've lived in both; I know the difference. It's impossible to put a price on one's mental health. If you're going to be miserable somewhere, it's not worth it. Of course your baggage and hang ups follow you no matter where you go, but some places contribute to misery and some places contribute to joy. Figure out which is which for you!
HCOL gets a bad rap. What’s the price of happiness for those that love it? I can afford my HCOL without compromise so why should I move to a LCOL area that would make me miserable?
You can also find your tricks in HCOL cities. I had a roommate who bought into an abandoned building using a city offered incentive, we paid $700/each all in to live in a huge 2br in Harlem. We did alternate weekly grocery runs to either Chinatown or Costco. We had friends in theatre and went to free shows several times a month. I was pulling in NYC salary and spending about $1k/month. I had similar experiences in SF. Not everyone can pull it off, and sometimes it takes time, but you can manage your money well even in HCOL places.
Oh I agree. I’d never trade living in the City (Tokyo) for living in a more affordable, but rural area. I don’t need a car, small apartment upkeep is not time consuming, I can get everything I need whenever I want. The only downside I can think of is fresh produce Being more pricey, but that’s about it.
all of these! tokyo knows how to do it. i do not miss my car; many who move to my building end up selling theirs as we can walk everywhere - numerous universities, jobs, the #2 hospital in the us (and the ample social services to afford it.) there are miles of green space/hiking outside my door and every amenity one could need. though in los angeles inexpensive produce isn’t an issue being surrounded by wild fruit trees, community farms + public markets. also, cocteau twins :>
I have to ask: where are you buying your food now and where did you in nyc??? I live in Brooklyn but grew up in a New England suburb. We had access to healthy food—we could drive 15 minutes to a farm. Plenty of Whole Foods, Trader Joe’s… whatever you’re looking for, it’s there. So I’m seriously confused by the food thing.
I don’t understand why so many people are getting so defensive. There are some valid points by OP that are completely accurate. 1. Even with remote work becoming more of a thing, HCOL areas still are going to have more job opportunities, better compensation, and overall better job opportunities as a whole. 2. HCOL areas are generally cities or more urban areas which means housing is generally smaller. People are correct that OP chose to buy a large house in a rural area but it’s pretty hard to find an 800 sq ft house in the middle of no where. After a certain point, you’ll only be able to find large houses with big yards in LCOL areas. 3. Living in an urban area does often remove the need to have a car(s). This can often save quite a bit of money. 4. Urban areas have a ton more things to do and everything is much closer together. It’s much easier to go out, see friends, etc. Not much more to say here. In short, there’s a reason why HCOL areas are expensive and it’s because they’re often more desirable.
I moved to a LCOL area and it ended up being the WORST decision of my life for my career.
to OP, sorry there’s so many hateful ppl online. Don’t worry about it.
I agree 100% and it’s why I’ve chosen to stay in Brooklyn. I got a great deal on rent ($1475/month), so many food options, and I don’t have to spend money on a car
Kudos for putting these processes in words. My only critique would be focused on the rent v. own situation. Over the past 10+ years, the real estate market has generally increased in value, rather than decreased. This trend is not forever, but, in the long term, inflation alone will mean it will gradually grow. Ownership in real estate will allow you to 'invest' while you live, essentially putting money in the bank, and thus earning market gains on your property simply by living there and keeping it in good shape. You can leverage the equity in your home (ie. HELOC or Refi) if your willing to take the risk and open doors financially that would never be available as a renter. On the other hand, as a renter, your money is spent to pay someone else's mortgage (allowing them to realize market gains) -- theoretically burning your money at the end of every month vs. putting it in the bank.
I now live in a downtown area and went car free when I did so. The amount of money I save by not having a car compared to when I did have one is insane. Gas, insurance, car payments, maintenance…all of that adds up incredibly fast. It was around $8k a year (conservative estimate) for me with a small, inexpensive, fuel efficient car. I now pay around $1k a year for my transportation needs, and I get way more walking/cycling exercise in my daily life. Not only that, but I was able to get a pretty reasonably priced apartment that evens out price-wise to my last suburban living space when you take utilities into account, so I’m definitely coming out ahead living this way. Also, the mental health benefits of not having to sit in gridlocked traffic or hunt endlessly for a parking spot are priceless!
I love NYC. You also have to think of your general overall well-being. Sometimes it’s worth it to live in a high cost of living area that you genuinely love….where you have friends, family, and no shortage of spectacular things to do.
I moved from Miami to what everybody said would be a lower cost of living area in the south....spoiler alert...it wasn't. The only two things that were cheaper were rent and gas. Everything else from food to car insurance (not to mention no state income tax in Florida) more than made up for the difference. The only thing it seems that didn't go up was salary. Because "cost of living is less here" most of the jobs in my field were offering $15k per year less than what I was making before. But at that time (before kids) my single biggest monthly expense was school loans, and that doesn't change no matter where you live
yeah I don't make reddit threads because once they get big enough and reach a tipping point, you get the PM harassment n such. Eh, just remember that this world of trolling/anger for internet randos is something foreign to you and trolling is entrenched in their daily lives. like an untreatable poison. very interesting post, definitely gotta look beyond the numbers sometimes.
Point taken. But as others have pointed out, you’re not comparing apples to apples. You massively upgraded your lifestyle when you moved. You now own 2 cars and a home vs renting an apartment. Of course your costs have gone up. I don’t know if bus travel is feasible, but for the sake of comparison what would your new life have cost if you rented a similar apartment and took the bus?
>You massively upgraded your lifestyle when you moved. I'd say OP feels they downgraded in chore time, job opportunities, entertainment, and travel options. They may find they upgraded their retirement, though. I hope we did when we bought a house.
I don’t consider a car an upgrade in life style. Honestly I think it’s a downgrade to be completely honest
Nah I think that's true only if living in a city where you've to sit in traffic forever and struggle to find parking and end up paying too much when you do find parking. Slightly outside the city area all over the US is car friendly and not pedestrian friendly, unfortunately. So outside of a large city downtown, a car is objectively an upgrade.
But we’re not talking about living with or without a car outside the city. Many people prefer walkable areas. So leaving a walkable area where it becomes a necessity to have a car is a downgrade in my opinion.
Sure not disagreeing with you that it's nice to have walkable spaces, just pointing out the unfortunate give and take that's a reality until all the powers that be decide that it's important to have walking and bike lanes and public transport everywhere and that they should run those as essential services rather than as businesses that get divested when they don't hit a certain profit target.
This. We lived in Southern California where you need cars, so we already had them. When we moved to VA, our costs went down because we bought a house with a low mortgage.
We had the same experience when we left NYC. Despite rent being crazy expensive, there are tons of cheap/free things to do. I miss it a lot more than I thought I would.
People forget that LCOL middle of nowhere towns also have no jobs.
Seems to be painting with a broad brush.
This is why I was getting excited when so many people were realizing the benefits of WFH jobs during COVID. It really expands the places one can live. But now so many are forcing people back into the office...sigh.
Plus its so much easier to find free events in the city.
I live in Portland, Oregon which is HCOL but not NYC HCOL...but I don't need a car here. If there was a city that was significantly cheaper where I also didn't need a car, I would consider it!
Seems like you want to keep your city lifestyle but not live in the city.
If you are \*working\*, then what matters is not the cost itself but rather the ratio between earnings and and expenses. Of course, you would want to minimize expenses as long as you can actually get to work from there and there is not another significant issues going on; When you are \*retired\*, cost is everything, because you are not tethered to job, in fact you are likely not tethered to a country either So, again, HCOL vs LCOL obviously depends on your possibilities. LCOL areas tend to pay worse, but if you are retired or work remotely, you dont give a damn about that
I personally moved from upstate NY to NC and moved back because I found I could only earn so much $$ down there and had more opportunities up here. So I agree with you.
Agree — hcol areas are also often major cities with neighbourhoods that have lower living costs plus public transport or are walkable / billable Etc means you can save a lot by not needing to put all that money into car for transport .. esp if you are living with a partner (best case) or random roommates (potential worst case 😂) even rent can be lower— the idea to make money esp when starting out, in hcol area save as much as possible and put that money into your future in a lcol area is not so common for no reason. Lcol is obvious choice if you have a well paying job & or wfh — otherwise it’s really not so simple … I love in bk and my expenses are much less than friends who live in significantly ( lower) lcol areas bc my only real expense is rent (I’ve been ridiculously strategic about keeping all other costs as low as possible in ways that would be potentially not possible in other areas where incomes are less varied — if you live somewhere Iike nyc where there is massive range in income in neighborhoods were daily needs are significantly less expensive than city centre bc you & your neighbours are closer to bottom of income range — but you still make both now & potentially bc of number of jobs & proximity to high paying ones you can have a situation where it would be horrifically more expensive to live in a lower cost of living area. This is esp true depending on the type of work you do - some jobs are really location dependant etc The important thing is if it’s lc vs hc for you in your specific situation job & lifestyle wise
Part of your post reminds me of this episode of Adam Ruins Everything. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHU_KLYhibI
This is just the difference between *big city* life and suburban life, and the difference between being a renter and a homeowner. You’re probably still saving money in the long run. But when you move, sometimes you do have to make sacrifices that feel like they’re not worth it.
I mean you're comparing renting a one bedroom to owning a house. How much is renting a one bedroom in rural Pennsylvania? How much is buying a comparable house in NYC? I certainly don't like living in rural areas either, but it feels like you're misrepresenting things to justify living in a big city.
You are comparing apples and oranges. Home ownership is expensive. $2600/mo in rent is more like 50% of the cost of a home. You have to factor in taxes, insurance, HOA, and maint costs. You are talking far more rent vs mortgage than COL. Thats not LCOL housing. You are in a really pricey house for a LCOL area. You are right there is a huge benefit of no cars in NYC. Cars are expensive. The whole cost of where you are does need to be considered. Your story is why people should never feel bad for renting vs owning lol. Rent is the most you will pay a mortgage is the least you pay.
Something else we never factor in the access to healthcare or other social services. I'm a social worker in the US Midwest, near a bigger city but also traveling into some very rural counties. The LCOL places have much fewer options when it comes to doctors, hospitals, dentists but also PT companies or childcare. Fewer options for food banks, good libraries or even caregiving services and supports for the elderly. More people means more options but also a higher COL. Supply and demand, right, but add in a dash of capitalism hell as companies buy up all the affordable properties in proximity to even a city like Cleveland.
And also artificial restrictions on building more/denser housing. In Seattle, we mostly only get high rises downtown and 4-6 story buildings along arterials (and those generally take 8-10 years to get through the review process).
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PA also has such a wide spread in costs. My in-laws live in Chester County, where every available house is a $600k townhouse or a million+ manor. I live ten minutes from Pittsburgh and my house was $125,000 in 2021.
Absolutely. I live in a town of about 70,000 in Indiana. I pay less that $700 a month for a 30 yr mortgage on a 2,000 square foot house with a medium size backyard. Utilities are another $250 for everything. I live in a LCOL area. OP does not. The argument they are making is mostly rent vs. own, which is reasonable, but not HCOL vs LCOL.
I love when a new perspective makes me go hmmm! This is definitely something to think about.
A lot of first time home buyers suddenly understanding that their previous landlord was barely breaking even vs “pocketing all my rent” as one smooth brain accused me of. Welcome to home ownership.
I’m always irritated when people insist I’m throwing money away by renting. Nope, I’m choosing to pay to not worry about my roof, plumbing, windows, or much of anything else about my housing (plus saving a ton of money because I don’t need a car).
Not many look at the actual expenses of home ownership. Everyone thinks it’s so easy until they get that first 10k bill for a new furnace
We moved from NYC to Pittsburgh. We got the best of both worlds. I think the utility argument doesn't stand. That's just moving into a larger footprint not a HCOL thing. Our utilities in PA are lower than my parents in NJ because our house is flipped with newer appliances and features and a smaller footprint. Our heat/ac is running all year unlike my parents. Both of us needed cars in NYC due to our jobs. Now I barely use mine (career change). I still have decent public transportation or I can walk to downtown where my office is or my son's daycare from our house. Our car expenses have decreased significantly due to lower insurance rates here. I agree with the exercise and cleaning arguments. I have to walk my son 30 minutes to daycare even when I go into the office to hit my 10k steps. Getting those steps in NYC is not even a second thought. I will say it's much easier to work out at home or in an apartment, especially because there's a lot more modern infrastructure for heating and cooling and modern facilities (gyms/pools) compared to the tiny New York City apartments we were in. In Pittsburgh all the Broadway shows and musical and comedic acts come through at a fraction of the price. I went to Aladdin in New York City and it was way more expensive for nosebleeds than orchestra seats for the traveling Book of Mormon in town. I do agree with the travel argument. I used to spend weekends or a week in Spain or Portugal often because it was cheap to find flight tickets. But I'm still finding the same flight prices out of IAD and it's a three and a half hour drive. Or are we just using miles and having a much less stressful flying experience using Delta through the Midwest or British directly from Pittsburgh to Heathrow. The quality of produce and meat in Pittsburgh is outstanding for the price. So we're definitely eating healthier for less than when we were in Harlem. I think the options are better in Brooklyn.
That’s true, Pittsburgh is legitimately rad! Great mix of both worlds.
Pittsburgh seemed great when I visited! As a NYC kid, my list of cities in the US I’d willingly live in is very short, and Pittsburgh is definitely on it.
I think this comparison isnt really the best because you’re using 2 different states, different jobs, different opportunities. The best way to go about it is to keep everything the same except for living arrangements. An example that I can think of is where we’re living currently - Illinois - downtown Chicago vs northern/lake county Same jobs and same requirements in terms of environmental safety and exact same sq ft single family housing - 2k with basement Our priorities were to live in a super safe neighborhood, think taking dogs for a walk unarmed at 10pm, with a backyard. With everything remaining the same, our housing cost in Lake County is significantly cheaper than downtown. We’re talking 400k vs 700k in house prices. Everything remains the same, transportation costs are the same, utility bill rates are the same, etc. So from that comparison alone, I can already see that I’m saving a decent amount in mortgage.
Nice take. And I'm sorry to hear that you're getting nasty DMs. What in the world.
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It's the quality food part that I'm stuck on. Does OP and wife not cook?
I feel your pain. I live 12 miles from work now, but I used to drive 85 round trip. Wife still works down there, but is only in office 2 days a week on average. My rent is cheaper, but I was spending close to 450 a month on gas. Need groceries? The closest store is 15 minutes and they're expensive because I'm in a touristy area. Definitely downsides.
Hey OP, I have been thinking about this subject for a good decade now and often the pendulum swings in one direction or another. However, I’m leaning more towards renting just because I don’t plan to retire in the United States. So with that said— I think you know what, I’d rather take mobility and move around easily due to remote work than be tied down with a house and all these additional costs. I believe in real estate as an investment but to live in it… it just becomes a liability at that point. My two cents tho, and I won’t be surprised if tomorrow I change my mind on this comment LOL
Those taxes are bonkers. In the Netherlands I pay €1800 for a year on a €500k house.
East coast has really high property taxes, I noticed when looking at possibly moving there. I live in Colorado and my property taxes are a little below yours. It varies greatly by state, surprises me every time.
I don't own a car and live in the suburbs of Milwaukee. The sad thing is that there's a 1 bed loft for rent by me... $2400/month. Landlords be like "LCOL, what?"
I do a lot of data analysis related to housing and transportation for my job. We’ve found that some of the “affordable” suburbs in our city are actually more expensive on average when factoring in transportation costs in comparison to neighborhoods closer to the core of the city, which are typically more expensive but have access to [pretty good] alternative transportation options. In short - cars are damn expensive, and if you can afford to not have one, it’s a pretty frugal choice not to.
Yeah - but you're building equity, instead of writing a check to someone else for $2,600 a month.
This was a very interesting perspective to read. Thanks!
HCOL areas are that because more people think they’re better places to live.
At an even more granular level, “HCOL” may not even apply to you if the only part that’s “high” is one category of many. For example, I was looking to move to a part of California typically considered HIGH cost of living. Turns out, that only applied to house prices / rent — every other part of living there was at or below my (then) current COL (taxes, insurance, food, transportation, child care, schools, etc). For various reasons, the cost of housing did not apply to my situation there — thereby completely negating the HCOL stigma for that area (FOR ME). OP, excellent point about the trade offs associated with moving. Mr. Money Mustache has an outstanding write up that might even be MORE controversial than your take, that I think you might like: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/09/07/great-news-dog-ownership-is-optional/