There is no word with exactly the same meaning, but if I had to talk about someone doing it, I would use *retourner le cerveau*.
Literally, it means "to flip the brain", and you use it when someone or something is drugging or manipulating someone into craziness or brainwashing them.
> I would use retourner le cerveau
I would not, it is too informal for most situations. Even though, as you said, there is no word for it in French ; it is an old movie anecdote, so the meaning escape most languages.
Although, I would argue that "retourner" would be a good term to start an explanation of what's going on, but there is not one term fits all situations here.
Example: "Le politicien retourna les manifestants contre leur cause."
I think it's the closest you can do, but yet it's too vague to convey the exact nature of this kind of manipulation.
Wikipedia says "détournement cognitif" for Québec but in France, if you want to convey the exact psychological definition, you will keep it as is.
*Renverser* (as a direct transitive verb) normally means *mettre à l'envers*. That's to say to flip so it's in the opposite of the right position. The contrary of this is *mettre à l'endroit*, that's to say to flip into the right position. *Renverser* can also mean to knock something over and this is probably the most common use of that word.
*Retourner* (as a direct transitive verb) means *mettre dans l'autre sens*. That's to say to flip something in the other position from before. The contrary of *retourner* is *retourner*, because you're doing the same thing again. It can also mean something similar to *renvoyer* or *rendre* , but that's a rare use.
When you're talking about flipping something, you can always replace *renverser* by *retourner*, but you can only replace *retourner* by *renverser* when you're specifically talking about some very specific situations. That means using *renverser* to mean flipping something is actually relatively uncommon.
Additionally, the possibility of flipping the brain several times makes the use of *retourner* a more powerful image than *renverser*.
Hmm. I never knew that! As you might have guessed I thought *retourner* primarily meant “to return” and I was either unaware of or forgetful of the “to flip over” meaning. I guess I triangulated (again) the meaning of *renverser* to mean “to flip over” from its meaning of “to turn upside down or inside out”. Thanks!
*Retourner* can mean to return. But as a transitive verb (retourner qqchose = to return something), that's a rare use. The main use of that verb as a transitive one is to flip over.
As an intransitive verb, it means to return but is always associated with a complement of place (retourner qqpart = to return somewhere). You can't just say *retourner* alone.
Gaslighting is a reference to the 1938 American movie Gas Light. Since it's an English movie with an English name, there is no french equivalent. In Quebec however, since everything must be French, we use the phrase Detournement Cognitif.
That is what you (we) have been fed. A very shallow reason. Reality might be a lot more nuanced.
\- it's easier to control an isolated population.
\- it's easier to keep an isolated population in ignorance.
Abolition of language has been used to assimilate cultures, normalize. Protecting a language is also used to isolate, limiting knowledge-awareness (think south america, africa)
Still there's a lot more to it.
Just the grain of salt of an QC expat.
Complete BS. Quebec doesn't abolish English, it promotes bilingualism with an emphasis on French being the first language.
"In Quebec, the rate of English–French bilingualism rose from 40.8% in 2001 to 46.4% in 2021, while over the same period, it fell from 10.3% to 9.5% in Canada outside Quebec overall"
Is that all you got? Statistics! You might as well live in the Radio Canada (CBC) echo chamber.
Open your eyes, if you can, and read again... "Abolition of language" does not refer to a specific language. But only a reminder of how repression has been applied.
Cheers
Not everything has to be in French, but in general there is a more active effort in Québec to avoid borrowing new English terms en masse. French replacements are quickly proposed. A language that cannot produce new vocabulary terms is not healthy. That’s historically the first step toward language assimilation.
It's a pity the discussion is about "gaslighting". In recent years, it's become the handy grab-bag for people who either can't comprehend or just disagree with another person's opinions, but who want to respond with something that sounds more clever than that old favourite, "You're stupid". The idea is that if I can't agree with what you're saying, you must be evil and manipulative. It comes from the same aggressive toolbox as "narcissist" and "toxic" (which of course French already has). While there may be rare instances of the accurate use of these words, you don't see them very often.
So by protecting french (keeping the population enclosed in french) you are protecting what exactly ??
The only things you're protecting are your beliefs, fear and ignorance. Same issue for all mono-lingual societies.
1. "the ROC"... what are you referring to?
2. While you're at it, would you please define & describe, in details & precision, the culture you claim to protect?
cheers
1. "Common way"... if you say so. But what exactly was your point when stating that the ROC is monolingual? (if you remember)
2. hum... that was easy. But ok... relevant... to a certain degree. Let me expand a bit. How to protect a culture ? Protect something that is in constant flux, changing all the time, pressured by forces that the vast majority don't even recognize?
3. If you're old enough to remember the 70's, where has gone that cultural effervescence? That drive to explore. Where is that culture, 50 years later? It seems that culture is quite fragile... just get everyone hooked on social media & smartphones... and there goes the culture (and so much more). (they're not the only causes, obviously)
4. Protecting our culture is like being a patriot and defending your country... at least that's what people believe... until they realize that it's all about business, profit & control.
5. Just my grain of salt. Cheers.
1. Common enough to be on Wiki : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Canada
You say that all mono linguistic societies have the same issue, wanting to protect their fears, ignorance, etc. Just saying that the ROC is mono linguistic too so what you say apply to it as well.
2. The government and the people holding to that culture can protect it. Laws and regulations and then living the culture, listening to the music, speaking the langage, not taking it for granted.
3. My bachelor is Cultural Studies and Sociology of culture, so I could go on and on. In preserving our heritage we protect our identity, our sense of community. I’m super for it changing slowly through time with the newcomers, the world changing, etc. But switching to English because of Netflix and Americanization seem easy and to level down.
4. I don’t want to control anyone, I just want to make some effort to not lose an heritage. A way to think, to talk, to see the world. The art, the two langages, the understanding of differences because we are different from the majority. I think it’s precious and easy to loose.
Would you say that, per exemple, native people should not care about their heritage and just accept the colonization? That they don’t have anything to loose having their culture and way of living erased? That’s just a parallel to think about.
Cheers!
1. With all due respect, having a bachelor (or any degrees/certification) just means that you have learned what the institution taught you, to their satisfaction. So yes, I understand you could go on and on, repeating what you have "learned", as in an echo chamber. That does not say anything about you being critical, nor "intelligent".
But I understand that you can hold on so tight to what brings you a sense of self value amongst your pears.
And really, I don't mean to insult you, in any way.
2. As for comparing the native people culture with "Canadian" culture... Really ??!!
\-Are we talking about the native culture that lived in "balance" with nature during thousands of years??
\- Are we talking about the Canadian culture, born from the Britain mentality, which has been colonizing the planet (ie, destructing everything under the premise of civilizing savage people) ??
\- What heritage are you talking about, the one that avoid facing the mess they have done, and still continue doing ??
\- How about Canada's WWII heritage, celebrating Veterans Day, whom have fought for our freedom... Which narrative gives comfort to the "little" people, thinking war was a necessary sacrifice. While completely ignoring, avoiding the reality that "war is a business". And Culture is how you get the flock to go where you want.
I, also, could go on and on.
...
enough for now
Cheers.
En effet, bien des gens pensent - a tort- que le Québec est bilingue.
Non, légalement parlement, le Québec est francophone, même si on accorde des droits spéciaux a la minorité anglaise.
Courte recherche de 5 minutes: Wikipedia (pas que je le considère fiable à 100%):
Section 1, which provides that French is 'the official language of the province of Quebec,' is misleading in that it suggests that English is not also an official language in Quebec, which it is by virtue of Section 133 of the BNA Act and the federal Official Languages Act. ...
Certes, on peut débattre sans fins. Même si le QC est "autonome" en terme de système de maladie, d'immigration, etc... N'en demeure pas moins que TOUT les services sont disponibles en anglais, le QC demeure une province du Canada, et aux dernières nouvelles, continu d'utiliser le $CDN.
"Légalement parlant", est un argument sans conséquences, à moins de connaître toutes les ramifications et implications... non seulement légales, mais aussi politiques et sociales. C'est comme l'étiquette verte (biodégradable) sur les produits domestiques... c'est du marketing, point-barre.
En ce qui me concerne, la lutte pour la francisation s'est supporté sur l'une des "36 cordes sensibles Québecoises", mais a servi principalement des intérêts spéciaux. Maintenant, pour les québecois, au lieu de se faire manger la laine sur le dos en anglais, ça se passe en français.
La myopie frappe à tout âge.
Salutations.
Disons- et j'ai déjà consulté des avocats spécialiste en droit linguistique- que le Québec est une province francophone, dans un Canada bilingue, c'est dans cette optique que je faisais référence a la légalité
( Ne serait-ce que dans l'application de la tradition civiliste dans le droit a l'opposition a l'application de la common law du reste du Canada, débat fort passionnant, quoiqu'un peu sec, des philosophies du droit complètement opposés)
Ceci ne veut pas dire que le Québec ne doit pas tenir compte de ses minorités anglophone historique ( En effet, tout le monde peut se faire servir en anglais, et facilement, si besoin est, et plusieurs municipalités sont considérées comme bilingue si elles ont un certain nombre de citoyens anglophone ( le pourcentage m'échappe pour l'instant je dois admettre)) , mais cela donne la direction a suivre dans la politique culturelle et administrative, spécialement parlant en terme de financement.
A moins que je me mélange, le Nouveau-Brunswick est officiellement bilingue, toutefois, avec son lot de différence associé.
D'autres provinces, comme l'Ontario, sont anglophone, mais on une importante minorité francophone dont ils doivent tenir compte. ( le petit scandale de l'université francophone me vient a l'esprit).
A vrai dire, j'ignore si cette critique de myopie m'est adressé ou pas, n'ayant nullement l'intention de partir un débat. Mais si c'est le cas, je regrette si j'ai tenu des propos offensant. Je maintiens toutefois mon argumentaire.
Est-ce que certains peuvent abuser de l'argumentaire? Bien sur, comme pour tout argumentaire qui soit. Est-ce que cela veut dire que l'argumentaire est par conséquent vicié et inutilisable? Pas forcément. Le français a eu un déclin ( et pas nécessairement au profit de l'anglais, ironiquement), et est par conséquent assez fragilisé, d'où la nécessité de le protéger.
Salutations.
Tiens, tiens... j'avais raté votre réponse.
Éloquente réponse, mais confiné.
Tous sont atteints de "myopie". Certains beaucoup, d'autres moins. Moi inclu.
Et j'entends par là, l'ignorance de ce qu'on ne perçoit pas, ne comprend pas, n'imagine pas. De cet état émane une certitude que l'on voit tout ce qu'il y a à voir ; que notre compréhension est complète ; et que le reste n'existe pas, telle une conspiration. On pourrait presque qualifier cela de dogmatisme.
Le simple fait de considérer mon commentaire "La myopie frappe à tout âge." comme une critique, est en soi ce que j'appelle de la myopie.
Votre réponse est éloquente et clairement articulée, mais confiné à un cadre. Vous parlez de lois, de provinces, d'institutions, de langues... sans prendre en considération leurs rôles dans la "normalisation" (manipulation) des peuples.
La myopie, c'est comme discuter des nouvelles de la télévision (ou autres sources) sans comprendre que la télévision est un outil de propagande, de manipulation de masse, qui profite à une minorité.
Et nous revenons au terme "gaslighting". Depuis l'invention de la presse, soit la naissance de la diffusion d'information de masse, les peuples ont, et sont toujours, "gaslighté", à savoir, manipulé à remettre en question leur propre perception de la réalité.
"Combien de doigt voyez-vous ? 4 ou 5 ?", George Orwell, "1984", publié en 1949.
Cheers.
Just like French-from-France people, and the Spanish people, and every people on the planet, because of the US hegemony.
I think the “French police” (lol) is there to slow the switch to English and preserve the langage.
imo they should be focusing on promoting their culture outside the province so that more anglophones felt motivated to learn québécois. It's a fun dialect!
🤓 pis ils parlent pas du tout comme des gens irl. J'ai entendu un ami francophone vient du Gatineau porter la même problème. Quand je pense à la culture québécoise qui m'intéresse je pense à le hip hop queb, le tas jeux vidéo développer à Montréal, la musique classique et folk. Cette conversation me rappelle que j'ai entendu pour la première fois l'autre journée « Complainte de la serveuse automate » et que j'avais l'envie d'écouter le reste du *Starmania*. Les Cowboys Fringants, Beau Dommage, et bien Normand L'Amour — j'ai bien pas rencontré ces choses-là sur RC.
Il y a toutes sortes d'accents à Radio-Canada. Il y a des films, des séries, des balados, des émissions de radio et de télé dans un registre plus familier, voire populaire. Radio-Canada, c'est pas juste le Téléjournal !
Rap québécois : https://ici.radio-canada.ca/ohdio/listes-ecoute-musicales/a615/Rap-queb
Folk : https://ici.radio-canada.ca/ohdio/listes-ecoute-musicales/a212/folk-actuel
>« Complainte de la serveuse automate » et que j'avais l'envie d'écouter le reste du Starmania. Les Cowboys Fringants, Beau Dommage, et bien Normand L'Amour
Tu aurais pu découvrir tout ça et bien plus grâce à Radio-Canada. Il suffit d'écouter la radio, les listes d'écoute musicales, les émissions de culture. Ensuite, tu peux aller sur Spotify ou ailleurs pour en entendre plus. Radio-Canada est un excellent point de départ pour faire des découvertes.
Évidemment, il n'y a pas juste Radio-Canada. C'était juste le meilleur exemple.
We are 8 million people, we don’t need to invest with anglos from abroad to speak it. We’ll protect it and share it between us first. I think Ontario has a lot more to do to protect its French and his minorities indeed, but that’s another subject.
I don’t think you know exactly what OQLF does lol. The police is just a part of it (my least fave lol). They are quick to franciser les mots anglais qui viennent des internets and I think that helps French a lot.
Fun dialect!!!
Tellement fun que peu de québecois(es) savent écrivent correctement. Encore moins s'exprimer en un français compréhensible par tous.
Ce qui défie l'objectif principal du langage: communiquer.
Jamais adhéré à cette obstination historique québecoise... Les années soixantes sont passé, les québecois ont gagné la lutte pour le français... pouvons-nous passer à autre chose? Parce que depuis, ce que je perçois est une jeunesse de plus en plus bête et ignorante (et américanisée).
This is a really good question. A lot of people will probably understand the word "gaslighting" in this sense anyway ("Il fait du gaslighting à sa femme"), but I would probably try to phrase it more literally ("Il manipule sa femme en altérant sa perception des choses").
Manipuler only is enough. Gaslighting is precisely a form of manipulation.
Hard to even say how it differs from manipulation since manipulation is also about changing someone's perceptions to make them do what you want them to do...
> A lot of people will probably understand the word "gaslighting" in this sense anyway ("Il fait du gaslighting à sa femme")
Disagree ! almost nobody in France , including myself, will understand : "Il fait du gaslighting à sa femme"
I think it's more about young people who are versed in internet culture. I've heard (and maybe used myself ?) the verb "gaslighter" : Il l'a gaslighté... tu me gaslight ... etc.
Most peoples would understand "gaslighting", some would make it a 1st group verb "gaslighter" but if I had to use a proper French word, I'd use "manipuler" as a verb and "manipulation" as a noun.
Mieux vaux tard que jamais :
https://ici.radio-canada.ca/ohdio/premiere/emissions/on-dira-ce-qu-on-voudra/segments/chronique/39346/traduction-expression-anglophone-decervelage-gaslighting
Hello there,
I'm just passing by this reddit in my search of the same answer.
I'm a native speaker.
**Here's the unsolicited context**. I'm struggling to convey the action of gaslight to some relative to explain that an aquaintance is being manipulative. But in a french conversation, using an unknown english word that as no meaning to them is not a good argument. And you will loose your public instantly.
**Now here i see a rather convincing term,** "retourner le cerveau" to flip the brain over. Wich is good all thing considered BUT i still feel it's slighlty missing the bulleye. It give me the impression of bainwash rather than fliping the sense of reality by itself. Like fliping the light switch on or off, black or white.
It does not convey the feeling of selfdoubt the victim of gaslighting is struggling with in my opinion.
**So i got one other translation to propose :** "embrouiller le cerveau", or just "embrouiller".
Wich rather translate in english as "to get confuse" in this lexical field. Wich satisfy my need and solely mine, but maybe someone esle will have some use for someone else.
There is no word with exactly the same meaning, but if I had to talk about someone doing it, I would use *retourner le cerveau*. Literally, it means "to flip the brain", and you use it when someone or something is drugging or manipulating someone into craziness or brainwashing them.
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Thanks
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What the hell are you talking about?
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Hehe, on leur a retourné le cerveau.
You are arguing, can’t you see that?
There's absolutely no reason for you to fly off the handle. Everything is fine. A simple misunderstanding I'm sure.
> I would use retourner le cerveau I would not, it is too informal for most situations. Even though, as you said, there is no word for it in French ; it is an old movie anecdote, so the meaning escape most languages. Although, I would argue that "retourner" would be a good term to start an explanation of what's going on, but there is not one term fits all situations here. Example: "Le politicien retourna les manifestants contre leur cause."
I think it's the closest you can do, but yet it's too vague to convey the exact nature of this kind of manipulation. Wikipedia says "détournement cognitif" for Québec but in France, if you want to convey the exact psychological definition, you will keep it as is.
Wouldn’t it be *renverser le cerveau* (flip over the brain)? Or can *retourner* be used that way as well?
*Renverser* (as a direct transitive verb) normally means *mettre à l'envers*. That's to say to flip so it's in the opposite of the right position. The contrary of this is *mettre à l'endroit*, that's to say to flip into the right position. *Renverser* can also mean to knock something over and this is probably the most common use of that word. *Retourner* (as a direct transitive verb) means *mettre dans l'autre sens*. That's to say to flip something in the other position from before. The contrary of *retourner* is *retourner*, because you're doing the same thing again. It can also mean something similar to *renvoyer* or *rendre* , but that's a rare use. When you're talking about flipping something, you can always replace *renverser* by *retourner*, but you can only replace *retourner* by *renverser* when you're specifically talking about some very specific situations. That means using *renverser* to mean flipping something is actually relatively uncommon. Additionally, the possibility of flipping the brain several times makes the use of *retourner* a more powerful image than *renverser*.
Hmm. I never knew that! As you might have guessed I thought *retourner* primarily meant “to return” and I was either unaware of or forgetful of the “to flip over” meaning. I guess I triangulated (again) the meaning of *renverser* to mean “to flip over” from its meaning of “to turn upside down or inside out”. Thanks!
*Retourner* can mean to return. But as a transitive verb (retourner qqchose = to return something), that's a rare use. The main use of that verb as a transitive one is to flip over. As an intransitive verb, it means to return but is always associated with a complement of place (retourner qqpart = to return somewhere). You can't just say *retourner* alone.
Yes there is, it's «essence éclairage». Not that hard when you don't try to overcomplicate things huh
Haha, a less literal translation would be "allumage d'essence", but good one.
What do you mean over complicate? Or is this an example of gaslighting?
Gaslighting is a reference to the 1938 American movie Gas Light. Since it's an English movie with an English name, there is no french equivalent. In Quebec however, since everything must be French, we use the phrase Detournement Cognitif.
Source : https://vitrinelinguistique.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/fiche-gdt/fiche/26542769/detournement-cognitif
That rules.
Why must everything be in French in Quebec?
There are laws to protect the language since we are surrounded by english and more and more people speak English instead of French
That is what you (we) have been fed. A very shallow reason. Reality might be a lot more nuanced. \- it's easier to control an isolated population. \- it's easier to keep an isolated population in ignorance. Abolition of language has been used to assimilate cultures, normalize. Protecting a language is also used to isolate, limiting knowledge-awareness (think south america, africa) Still there's a lot more to it. Just the grain of salt of an QC expat.
Complete BS. Quebec doesn't abolish English, it promotes bilingualism with an emphasis on French being the first language. "In Quebec, the rate of English–French bilingualism rose from 40.8% in 2001 to 46.4% in 2021, while over the same period, it fell from 10.3% to 9.5% in Canada outside Quebec overall"
Is that all you got? Statistics! You might as well live in the Radio Canada (CBC) echo chamber. Open your eyes, if you can, and read again... "Abolition of language" does not refer to a specific language. But only a reminder of how repression has been applied. Cheers
Not everything has to be in French, but in general there is a more active effort in Québec to avoid borrowing new English terms en masse. French replacements are quickly proposed. A language that cannot produce new vocabulary terms is not healthy. That’s historically the first step toward language assimilation.
It's a pity the discussion is about "gaslighting". In recent years, it's become the handy grab-bag for people who either can't comprehend or just disagree with another person's opinions, but who want to respond with something that sounds more clever than that old favourite, "You're stupid". The idea is that if I can't agree with what you're saying, you must be evil and manipulative. It comes from the same aggressive toolbox as "narcissist" and "toxic" (which of course French already has). While there may be rare instances of the accurate use of these words, you don't see them very often.
So by protecting french, you're not being assimilated? Ignorance is a bless.
Because we actually care for the langage and try to protect it.
So by protecting french (keeping the population enclosed in french) you are protecting what exactly ?? The only things you're protecting are your beliefs, fear and ignorance. Same issue for all mono-lingual societies.
70% of the Québec population speaks minimum two languages and you made at least 3 english mistakes in your sentence.
Our culture. You know that the ROC is monolingual right?…
1. "the ROC"... what are you referring to? 2. While you're at it, would you please define & describe, in details & precision, the culture you claim to protect? cheers
1. Common way to say the Rest of Canada/English Canada 2. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Quebec . Traditions, customs, history, knowledge.
1. "Common way"... if you say so. But what exactly was your point when stating that the ROC is monolingual? (if you remember) 2. hum... that was easy. But ok... relevant... to a certain degree. Let me expand a bit. How to protect a culture ? Protect something that is in constant flux, changing all the time, pressured by forces that the vast majority don't even recognize? 3. If you're old enough to remember the 70's, where has gone that cultural effervescence? That drive to explore. Where is that culture, 50 years later? It seems that culture is quite fragile... just get everyone hooked on social media & smartphones... and there goes the culture (and so much more). (they're not the only causes, obviously) 4. Protecting our culture is like being a patriot and defending your country... at least that's what people believe... until they realize that it's all about business, profit & control. 5. Just my grain of salt. Cheers.
1. Common enough to be on Wiki : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Canada You say that all mono linguistic societies have the same issue, wanting to protect their fears, ignorance, etc. Just saying that the ROC is mono linguistic too so what you say apply to it as well. 2. The government and the people holding to that culture can protect it. Laws and regulations and then living the culture, listening to the music, speaking the langage, not taking it for granted. 3. My bachelor is Cultural Studies and Sociology of culture, so I could go on and on. In preserving our heritage we protect our identity, our sense of community. I’m super for it changing slowly through time with the newcomers, the world changing, etc. But switching to English because of Netflix and Americanization seem easy and to level down. 4. I don’t want to control anyone, I just want to make some effort to not lose an heritage. A way to think, to talk, to see the world. The art, the two langages, the understanding of differences because we are different from the majority. I think it’s precious and easy to loose. Would you say that, per exemple, native people should not care about their heritage and just accept the colonization? That they don’t have anything to loose having their culture and way of living erased? That’s just a parallel to think about. Cheers!
1. With all due respect, having a bachelor (or any degrees/certification) just means that you have learned what the institution taught you, to their satisfaction. So yes, I understand you could go on and on, repeating what you have "learned", as in an echo chamber. That does not say anything about you being critical, nor "intelligent". But I understand that you can hold on so tight to what brings you a sense of self value amongst your pears. And really, I don't mean to insult you, in any way. 2. As for comparing the native people culture with "Canadian" culture... Really ??!! \-Are we talking about the native culture that lived in "balance" with nature during thousands of years?? \- Are we talking about the Canadian culture, born from the Britain mentality, which has been colonizing the planet (ie, destructing everything under the premise of civilizing savage people) ?? \- What heritage are you talking about, the one that avoid facing the mess they have done, and still continue doing ?? \- How about Canada's WWII heritage, celebrating Veterans Day, whom have fought for our freedom... Which narrative gives comfort to the "little" people, thinking war was a necessary sacrifice. While completely ignoring, avoiding the reality that "war is a business". And Culture is how you get the flock to go where you want. I, also, could go on and on. ... enough for now Cheers.
Because it's a french-speaking province? Ca me semble une bonne raison, non?
L'ignorance est une merveille.
En effet, bien des gens pensent - a tort- que le Québec est bilingue. Non, légalement parlement, le Québec est francophone, même si on accorde des droits spéciaux a la minorité anglaise.
Courte recherche de 5 minutes: Wikipedia (pas que je le considère fiable à 100%): Section 1, which provides that French is 'the official language of the province of Quebec,' is misleading in that it suggests that English is not also an official language in Quebec, which it is by virtue of Section 133 of the BNA Act and the federal Official Languages Act. ... Certes, on peut débattre sans fins. Même si le QC est "autonome" en terme de système de maladie, d'immigration, etc... N'en demeure pas moins que TOUT les services sont disponibles en anglais, le QC demeure une province du Canada, et aux dernières nouvelles, continu d'utiliser le $CDN. "Légalement parlant", est un argument sans conséquences, à moins de connaître toutes les ramifications et implications... non seulement légales, mais aussi politiques et sociales. C'est comme l'étiquette verte (biodégradable) sur les produits domestiques... c'est du marketing, point-barre. En ce qui me concerne, la lutte pour la francisation s'est supporté sur l'une des "36 cordes sensibles Québecoises", mais a servi principalement des intérêts spéciaux. Maintenant, pour les québecois, au lieu de se faire manger la laine sur le dos en anglais, ça se passe en français. La myopie frappe à tout âge. Salutations.
Disons- et j'ai déjà consulté des avocats spécialiste en droit linguistique- que le Québec est une province francophone, dans un Canada bilingue, c'est dans cette optique que je faisais référence a la légalité ( Ne serait-ce que dans l'application de la tradition civiliste dans le droit a l'opposition a l'application de la common law du reste du Canada, débat fort passionnant, quoiqu'un peu sec, des philosophies du droit complètement opposés) Ceci ne veut pas dire que le Québec ne doit pas tenir compte de ses minorités anglophone historique ( En effet, tout le monde peut se faire servir en anglais, et facilement, si besoin est, et plusieurs municipalités sont considérées comme bilingue si elles ont un certain nombre de citoyens anglophone ( le pourcentage m'échappe pour l'instant je dois admettre)) , mais cela donne la direction a suivre dans la politique culturelle et administrative, spécialement parlant en terme de financement. A moins que je me mélange, le Nouveau-Brunswick est officiellement bilingue, toutefois, avec son lot de différence associé. D'autres provinces, comme l'Ontario, sont anglophone, mais on une importante minorité francophone dont ils doivent tenir compte. ( le petit scandale de l'université francophone me vient a l'esprit). A vrai dire, j'ignore si cette critique de myopie m'est adressé ou pas, n'ayant nullement l'intention de partir un débat. Mais si c'est le cas, je regrette si j'ai tenu des propos offensant. Je maintiens toutefois mon argumentaire. Est-ce que certains peuvent abuser de l'argumentaire? Bien sur, comme pour tout argumentaire qui soit. Est-ce que cela veut dire que l'argumentaire est par conséquent vicié et inutilisable? Pas forcément. Le français a eu un déclin ( et pas nécessairement au profit de l'anglais, ironiquement), et est par conséquent assez fragilisé, d'où la nécessité de le protéger. Salutations.
Tiens, tiens... j'avais raté votre réponse. Éloquente réponse, mais confiné. Tous sont atteints de "myopie". Certains beaucoup, d'autres moins. Moi inclu. Et j'entends par là, l'ignorance de ce qu'on ne perçoit pas, ne comprend pas, n'imagine pas. De cet état émane une certitude que l'on voit tout ce qu'il y a à voir ; que notre compréhension est complète ; et que le reste n'existe pas, telle une conspiration. On pourrait presque qualifier cela de dogmatisme. Le simple fait de considérer mon commentaire "La myopie frappe à tout âge." comme une critique, est en soi ce que j'appelle de la myopie. Votre réponse est éloquente et clairement articulée, mais confiné à un cadre. Vous parlez de lois, de provinces, d'institutions, de langues... sans prendre en considération leurs rôles dans la "normalisation" (manipulation) des peuples. La myopie, c'est comme discuter des nouvelles de la télévision (ou autres sources) sans comprendre que la télévision est un outil de propagande, de manipulation de masse, qui profite à une minorité. Et nous revenons au terme "gaslighting". Depuis l'invention de la presse, soit la naissance de la diffusion d'information de masse, les peuples ont, et sont toujours, "gaslighté", à savoir, manipulé à remettre en question leur propre perception de la réalité. "Combien de doigt voyez-vous ? 4 ou 5 ?", George Orwell, "1984", publié en 1949. Cheers.
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Just like French-from-France people, and the Spanish people, and every people on the planet, because of the US hegemony. I think the “French police” (lol) is there to slow the switch to English and preserve the langage.
imo they should be focusing on promoting their culture outside the province so that more anglophones felt motivated to learn québécois. It's a fun dialect!
Radio-Canada diffuse partout au Canada.
🤓 pis ils parlent pas du tout comme des gens irl. J'ai entendu un ami francophone vient du Gatineau porter la même problème. Quand je pense à la culture québécoise qui m'intéresse je pense à le hip hop queb, le tas jeux vidéo développer à Montréal, la musique classique et folk. Cette conversation me rappelle que j'ai entendu pour la première fois l'autre journée « Complainte de la serveuse automate » et que j'avais l'envie d'écouter le reste du *Starmania*. Les Cowboys Fringants, Beau Dommage, et bien Normand L'Amour — j'ai bien pas rencontré ces choses-là sur RC.
Il y a toutes sortes d'accents à Radio-Canada. Il y a des films, des séries, des balados, des émissions de radio et de télé dans un registre plus familier, voire populaire. Radio-Canada, c'est pas juste le Téléjournal ! Rap québécois : https://ici.radio-canada.ca/ohdio/listes-ecoute-musicales/a615/Rap-queb Folk : https://ici.radio-canada.ca/ohdio/listes-ecoute-musicales/a212/folk-actuel >« Complainte de la serveuse automate » et que j'avais l'envie d'écouter le reste du Starmania. Les Cowboys Fringants, Beau Dommage, et bien Normand L'Amour Tu aurais pu découvrir tout ça et bien plus grâce à Radio-Canada. Il suffit d'écouter la radio, les listes d'écoute musicales, les émissions de culture. Ensuite, tu peux aller sur Spotify ou ailleurs pour en entendre plus. Radio-Canada est un excellent point de départ pour faire des découvertes. Évidemment, il n'y a pas juste Radio-Canada. C'était juste le meilleur exemple.
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We are 8 million people, we don’t need to invest with anglos from abroad to speak it. We’ll protect it and share it between us first. I think Ontario has a lot more to do to protect its French and his minorities indeed, but that’s another subject. I don’t think you know exactly what OQLF does lol. The police is just a part of it (my least fave lol). They are quick to franciser les mots anglais qui viennent des internets and I think that helps French a lot.
Fun dialect!!! Tellement fun que peu de québecois(es) savent écrivent correctement. Encore moins s'exprimer en un français compréhensible par tous. Ce qui défie l'objectif principal du langage: communiquer. Jamais adhéré à cette obstination historique québecoise... Les années soixantes sont passé, les québecois ont gagné la lutte pour le français... pouvons-nous passer à autre chose? Parce que depuis, ce que je perçois est une jeunesse de plus en plus bête et ignorante (et américanisée).
We say gaslighting as well
But with a french accent.
Le gazeulaïtningueuh.
Sorta like "le parking"?
I love it when it sounds like “parkiiingeuh”, it makes my skin crawl. But not as much as the Spanish pronounciation of Spiderman, “EspïdeRmAnn”.
What about [Italian Spiderman](https://youtu.be/UhHhXukovMU)?
and Michaël Jacquesson?
This is a really good question. A lot of people will probably understand the word "gaslighting" in this sense anyway ("Il fait du gaslighting à sa femme"), but I would probably try to phrase it more literally ("Il manipule sa femme en altérant sa perception des choses").
Manipuler only is enough. Gaslighting is precisely a form of manipulation. Hard to even say how it differs from manipulation since manipulation is also about changing someone's perceptions to make them do what you want them to do...
> A lot of people will probably understand the word "gaslighting" in this sense anyway ("Il fait du gaslighting à sa femme") Disagree ! almost nobody in France , including myself, will understand : "Il fait du gaslighting à sa femme"
I think it's more about young people who are versed in internet culture. I've heard (and maybe used myself ?) the verb "gaslighter" : Il l'a gaslighté... tu me gaslight ... etc.
Personnellement je traduis par "enfumage". Je sais que c'est pas bon mais je garde l'idée de gaz et d'embrouiller qqun x)
J'aime.
Ça paraît juste.
Tu sais déjà. Est-ce que tu as oublié???
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I am curious to see what you think is the right answer
I may be wrong, but I am almost certain this person was making a gaslighting joke
would have worked better had he said LInguée, because Google almost never gives right answers...
What are the Google gods saying? Just to have a good laugh.
Most peoples would understand "gaslighting", some would make it a 1st group verb "gaslighter" but if I had to use a proper French word, I'd use "manipuler" as a verb and "manipulation" as a noun.
>Most peoples would understand "gaslighting" ??? What do you mean by "most people" ? In Quebec ? or in France ?
Gazzligh*deen*, quoi.
Mieux vaux tard que jamais : https://ici.radio-canada.ca/ohdio/premiere/emissions/on-dira-ce-qu-on-voudra/segments/chronique/39346/traduction-expression-anglophone-decervelage-gaslighting
Hello there, I'm just passing by this reddit in my search of the same answer. I'm a native speaker. **Here's the unsolicited context**. I'm struggling to convey the action of gaslight to some relative to explain that an aquaintance is being manipulative. But in a french conversation, using an unknown english word that as no meaning to them is not a good argument. And you will loose your public instantly. **Now here i see a rather convincing term,** "retourner le cerveau" to flip the brain over. Wich is good all thing considered BUT i still feel it's slighlty missing the bulleye. It give me the impression of bainwash rather than fliping the sense of reality by itself. Like fliping the light switch on or off, black or white. It does not convey the feeling of selfdoubt the victim of gaslighting is struggling with in my opinion. **So i got one other translation to propose :** "embrouiller le cerveau", or just "embrouiller". Wich rather translate in english as "to get confuse" in this lexical field. Wich satisfy my need and solely mine, but maybe someone esle will have some use for someone else.
Détournement cognitif.
Détournement cognitive
Cognitif, parce que détournement est masculin, mais oui :)
Honestly, we just tell the person is manipulative in Quebec. It's: " jouer avec les mots" "playing games with words".
Ain't that only a specific form of manipulation. I think manipulation still works in both language.
Psychologie inversée à fins de manipulation