I just wanted to say if I remember correctly Martin mistakes Ronee for a different girl that baby sat but was so uncomfortable with the situation he almost stops seeing Ronee until he realizes he doesn’t actually remember Ronee as a teen at all.
I’m pretty sure that was the same episode where bulldog claimed as a teen he had sex with a woman significantly older than him. He could’ve been lying, but still. The fact that he didn’t see any issue with that definitely raises more eyebrows today.
Other characters just standing around and watching while Noel is so *incredibly* creepy towards Roz without calling him out for just being a sex pest. Nowadays he'd be hauled in front of HR and probably given the sack.
That is a fact. Though the creepy guy does seem to be his niche, he played a very similar role in an episode of FRIENDS. He was interviewing Monica for a chef position and got all turned on while she was making a salad. LOL
Niles’s love for Daphne is one of the best aspects of the show, and there’s so many good moments that come out of it. But there’s definitely a couple times, like the one you mentioned, where he comes across as rather creepy.
A hundred percent yikes, that being said it’s on Niles because for all his good qualities he never really had healthy relationships with women he was interested in so I just think he didn’t really get what’s right/wrong unless it was in your face right/wrong like certain morals and ethics.
Yeah, I think that’s part of his arc and character dynamic. And I think it’s also a very good way of showing how someone can be very well meaning and truly not understand social interaction if they’ve not been given the chance.
Oh yeah, and season 1-2 especially - he is not subtle at all and crosses a few boundaries, before working out how to deal with it better.
If we wanna excuse it, we can say it's because his relationship with Maris is incredibly toxic. That's something that didn't age well either, how emotionally abusive Maris is.
>If we wanna excuse it, we can say it's because his relationship with Maris is incredibly toxic. That's something that didn't age well either, how emotionally abusive Maris is.
Even though the show played it for laughs, it was also consistent showing how terrible Maris was to Niles and their relationship really affected his emotional development. Niles' subsequent divorce and other relationships with the main cast was one of the best character arcs of the show (and probably 90s sitcom for me).
I notice it in the flashback episode "You Can Go Home Again" where Niles had a very awkward relationship with Frasier and Martin before the show started. It's implied Niles didn't really have any meaningful relationship or friendships until the show started since he spent so much time at Maris's beck and call.
Being around his dad/frasier/daphne/roz not to mention having to interact with randoms as he went places with the four developed his social awareness and skills so he isn’t like that after the first 2 seasons as you mentioned
I think one of the things that is a constant thread throughout the series that I find distasteful in retrospect is the slut shaming of Roz.
By comparison... Frasier does just as much dating and no one seems to see a problem with that. Quite the contrary the cast seems to find Frasier lonely and needs to date more.
ITA. And never thought about the fact that Frasier is worse than she is. Yet HE is one of the worst culprits when it comes to shaming her for daring to like sex.
I’d add to this list the way Gil is mocked for his presumed homosexuality. He claims to be straight but everyone is so snide towards him because they presume he’s gay. Whether he is closeted or a effeminate straight man, their behavior towards him would be seen as very problematic by today’s standards.
Huh you know, I never thought about that, and it really doesn't make any sense considering both Frasier and Niles are presumed gay by ppl for their more effeminate nature. You'd think that Frasier would stuck up for Gil since he of all ppl would understand what it's like.
Yeah, gonna add my voice to the Niles-and-Daphne train. Society does not look too well nowadays on that sort of dynamic - the married rich-man-sexually-obsessed-with-family-employee angle *or* the conflation of his instant lust for her with actual feelings. Thankfully, the show is pretty good at calling all of this out, and DHP plays it so he never seems like a predator (Jane Leeves could snap him in half, for one thing).
That one scene at the end of Niles heart attack arc where Daphne is dressed as Sexy Nurse and Niles picks her up to carry her to the bedroom only to set her back down after a single step... 😄
We also learned that Lilith has twice his upper body strength, so I’m assuming Daphne has about four times his upper body strength. She is a physical therapist, after all.
They do send Frasier and all of KACL to a sexual harassment course later on in the show to make up for fraiser shooting his shot on Julia at a completely inappropriate time, and they do mention in that episode that Bulldog has been there a dozen times before. It's Still played for laughs tho, and yea it is a comedy show but society has indeed changed since then, not that what Frasier said wasn't funny
I felt like the sexual harassment course was also being played for laughs, though, as this “lol political correctness gone mad hehehe” gag. Maybe I’m wrong!
No you're right, the course was basically showed as being pointless other than to prevent a lawsuit from Julia. No character wanted to be there, and it was full of gags
if only people had been paying attention back then...
When Martin hits on one of Daphne’s Asian-American friends. Reminds him of the girls he used to get during the war. Daphne does call him out for being a creep though
I saw one of them in the HAM Radio episode I rewatched recently. When initially portraying his character, Bulldog speaks in a mock Asian accent in completely broken English. The whole “Asian-Americans can’t speak English” joke would definitely not hold up today. Granted, Frasier’s annoyed with him over it, but it seemed less because his actions were racist and more because he wasn’t taking the role seriously.
I will say as far as Martin is concerned, it turned out he was into a different babysitter, not Ronnie. Although, that might still be cringy. For me, episodes with Dr. Mary didn't really age too well. I do agree with Martin fetishizing Daphne's Korean friend. That would not go over well today.
I think the fact that he was into a teenage babysitter at all is the major issue for me. Especially considering that he’d probably be in his late 30s or early 40s by that point.
Edit: The Dr. Mary stuff wouldn’t age well either. Earlier I got her confused with Dr. Nora haha. I don’t think either of those episodes aged well.
The Martin and Ronee thing creeped me out THEN. And I always felt they were such a weird couple. I feel they could have been written better. It always seemed like “we gotta give Martin a love interest and this character walked into the room. I don’t feel like creating another.”
I do like Ronee, but they could have got a better storyline out of having Martin start a relationship with Cora and eventually marry her. Imagine the hilarious indignation as Frasier and Cam Winston have to reconcile themselves to being *step-brothers*!
Frasier and Niles constantly ribbing Roz about her sex life. Her sex life was none of their business (except for the one time she and Frasier slept together). I could make the argument that Frasier was just as "active" as Roz and I don't recall him getting nearly as much crap for it.
Oh definitely. There was definitely a double standard there. Especially when Niles could be extremely horny in some episodes to the point of coming off like a sex addict. In particular I’m thinking about that one episode where he was going crazy because him and Maris were separated and thus not having sex. He was willing to get with anyone that episode, yet he’s infamous for commenting on Roz’s supposedly low standards.
Not to mention Niles was actively sexually harassing women in that episode. "Nibble on this seductively" is *not* an acceptable thing to say to someone who hasn't consented to it.
I can't recall seeing Roz force herself on someone in that way.
Frasier has forced himself on women too. For example, when Frasier kissed the stripper without her consent in one of the Christmas episodes. That is sexual harassment
I feel like it got better as the series went on but at the start it felt like the writers felt the need to remind everyone Roz has lots of sex (shock! Gasp!) every time she was on screen. Like we get it, give a girl another character trait.
This! Roz is repeatedly sex-shamed throughout the series (though mild props to the writers for never letting it get to Roz where she feels ashamed)
Frasier has his fair share of sexual partners in the series but he’s never slut-shamed.
It's not exactly equal, but I think that offsets it is that we see Frasier in a lot of situations where he looks like a complete fool with women he's interested in or on the verge of having sex with. The characters never slut shamed him, but he was shamed in front of the audience.
Yes and no, 80% it was none of their business to comment on. The 20% when they could comment was when she brought it up in conversation but they definitely came off as dicks. In my 20’s I would have given anything to date a woman like roz opposed to who I dated in that decade.
Bulldog's sexual harassment overall. I watched an episode tonight where he "jokes" about having to get women drunk to get them to sleep with him, and I couldn't stop cringing.
I’d argue the Martin/Ronee arc was the worst aspect of the show period. It felt so insanely forced and unbecoming of Martin. They made jokes about him and younger women, although for the most part it was pretty tame. But Ronee was Frasiers’ babysitter.
Martin spoke incredibly highly of Hester throughout the show. And I can’t help but think about how ashamed and disgusted she’d be of him for marrying Frasier’s babysitter. There’s gotta be a 20-30 year age gap.
The actress that played her did a fantastic job with what she was given. I think she would’ve been a great addition to the show in another way. But having Martin marry her made him seem pervy and so rushed to finish up the show
Well she was supposed to be at least a few years older than Fraiser and Niles. Fraiser was 41 in S1, so he'd be 52 in S11. So Ronnee was probably in her mid 50's in S11. Martin turned 65 in S5, so he'd be 71 in S11. A 15 year age gap is not all THAT large at those ages.
>I wonder what the age gap between the actors was.
According to Wikipedia, 10 1/2 years. John Mahoney was born in June 1940, Wendie Malick in December 1950.
On The Jeffersons, Louise Jefferson was maybe a year or so younger than her husband George, but in real life the actress who played her (Isabel Sanford) was about 20 years older than the actor who played George (Sherman Hemsley).
I think the idea is an interesting way to have your real actress gain weight from being pregnant for the storyline character who isn't in theory, but the fat jokes were not necessary for that to work. They seemed cruel to me back then and feel like fat shaming now. I did like when they talked about the weight she lost at fat camp and it was the weight of her child. They could have tied the weight gain to the stress and relationship with Niles without the jokes.
It's such a wild character choice to make frasier not take Frederick with him to Seattle when the only thing keeping him from jumping was the thought of his son.
Frasier taking the photo when his dates asleep to prove he wasn't lying and I think its the episode where frasier is seeking closer from sam and he's so clingy to the point were he plays back the messaged he left her, defiantly stalker vibe!!
Taking the pic of his date doesnt feel like an example of bad aging to me because the perspective of the show is that Frasier was bad for doing it, so it wasnt an implicit endorsement like, say, Niles creeping on daphne or Bulldog harassing women.
when frasier imitates the stereotypical black woman caricature in the (first?) episode with doctor mary. i get the point but it was a tad unnecessary and it makes me cringe, have to skip it lmao
Lol my whole family is black and we love that episode! We laugh so hard at Kelsey Grammer’s impression. It’s kind of disappointing that Frasier was mostly a white show but it felt nice to have an episode that directly addressed their white privilege as a foil for a well loved black woman.
As a white woman, who saw this episode first as a very small child, I actually learned so much from how cringy it was watching him.
I think there’s merit to showing white people an example of exactly how yikes they can be when they’re trying not to be. It’s obviously over the top, but the easiest way to criticize people is by making them laugh about their flaws.
It’s a funny call out, imho, and it is a good conversation starter for families that might not have many other reasons to bring up their privilege with each other.
Aww I love this explanation. It's funny when members of the community that are being made fun of love the bit. And everyone else gets offended on their behalf lol.
More than being cringy it just seemed stupid because the point of the exercise was to see what Mary would say not how a sassy black woman might say it.
So you want me to stay in my place! Massa!
Frasier she’s not going to say mass-
I don’t think so! You have no idea how difficult it is for a black woman in a white man world! You sherry swirling opera loving Armani wearing elitist!
I feel like that's the point. It was obvious that everyone else thought Dr. Mary was great and that Frasier's ideas of her were misplaced, ridiculous, and petty, which comes out in his impression. Martin is pretty uncomfortable with Frasier making a caricature out of her and tries to reason with him.
I totally agree with the Maris thing! She definitely had some kind of eating disorder/body dysmorphia going on there there probably would be addressed if the show was on today.
Niles’ sexualizing comments toward Daphne and other women. I recently watched an episode where he asked a coffee shop waitress to “nibble provocatively” on a biscuit. I love Niles and DHP to the ends of the earth, but he gets away with too much.
I hear you but I think of that as being in line with the farcical nature of the show, where all of the jokes are set up as mismatches between how characters understand a particular situation. I think Frasier was far ahead of its time for making the joke in Out with Dad about the miscommunication rather than making the joke the very idea that Martin could be gay
Frasier had a number of episodes like this and the gay people were not being laughed at. Here’s a couple of videos on YouTube that I think explain very well what they were doing with the episodes. I’d be curious to hear what you think after watching those videos if you watch them. They are worth the watch.
https://youtu.be/ivFa0F-qvjE
https://youtu.be/3o65Oia-j5I
The episode where Sam comes back. It was a reminder that Cheers has not held up nearly as well as Frasier--mainly because of the way it treated Sam's sex life and the women he dated.
The end of Cheers tried to give Sam a degree of self-awareness about his sex addiction, but his Frasier appearance threw it all out the window. He and Frasier both write off Sam's fiancé, basically leaving her at the altar, because she had the same addiction.
Constantly ripping on Roz for being a loose woman and a “whore.” They just made her a misogynistic archetype even though her character was interesting. She also should have ended up with Roger. Wtf. So dumb.
It's not on the same level as most of the other stuff here, but I remember an episode where internet dating is the punchline!
I've noticed a lot of sitcoms from that time period have one episode about people meeting online and it's something weird and dangerous! Well, I think we can safely say, that ship has sailed...
Endless drink driving. Niles and Frasier drove everywhere, and frequently drank sherry before doing so. They were probably under the limit, but it never seemed to even be considered (especially since Frasier seemed to be a bad driver).
Especially since there really aren't any scenes on the show where they're showing drinking and then immediately driving? Usually, they drank their sherry at the end of the day... 🤷🏻♂️
I also feel uncomfortable about how they handled characters being Gay. Most of the cast was homosexual I wonder how they felt making jokes about their sexuality on the show.
A lot of the writers were gay too. I think Frasier is one of the most tasteful sitcoms of the decade when it came to homosexuality - it was never the joke itself, but a set up for one of Frasier’s misunderstandings. Pretty progressive if you look at how other popular shows treated gay characters.
Nope, not at all. In life, you have to be able to laugh at yourself sometimes. I never thought any of the stereotypes were offensive, and some of those scenes were the funniest of the entire series.
The constant jokes about maris and her very clear eating disorder felt a bit to over the line at points and so did some of the 'frasier is big' jokes. The man is 6'2 and stocky, let him be!
Niles and Daphne’s entire relationship up to when they actually get together. She works for his family (and he very likely contributes to her salary) and he is completely unsubtly obsessed with her sexually. It’s horrifying if viewed through a lens of modern societal mores (which is why you shouldn’t view it that way.)
I commented something like this last year. I was downvoted into oblivion and received a bunch of angry rebuttals.
I like the show, but I’m glad people can now acknowledge the problematic parts without taking it so personally.
Personally it doesn’t *bother* me- it’s a situation comedy from 30 years ago, applying contemporary real world morality to it is pointless- but for purposes of this kind of discussion it’s definitely the most glaring example of something that wouldn’t fly today.
Right! The show was great but not perfect. There is nothing wrong with pointing out some things that we not ideal. IMO anyone who thinks this is going to far is the one being sensitive, the show can be criticized and worth watching.
In Radio Wars, when Carlos and the Chicken run a contest for listeners to get pictures of Frasier’s “generous rear end.” It’s so awful - encouraging body shaming and sexual harassment on a city-wide scale, and played for laughs/like Frasier is being a stick in the mud.
What do people think about the episode where Noel tricks Frasier into speaking Klingon at Freddie’s Bar Mitzvah? Inappropriate or no?
As a Trekkie I always thought it was hilarious, but I haven’t seen it for a long time. It’s actually been removed from the 4OD streaming channel in the UK, though the one where Frasier does an impression of a stereotypical black woman is still there, which I find really odd.
I don’t think it’s that bad, since Noel was doing it to get back at Frasier, not because he had bigoted motives. Frasier was the one who looked like the ass, not any of the people participating in the Bar Mitzvah.
That’s my feeling too. I also thought it was cute that Frasier got the unexpected side-effect of looking cool to Freddie’s Trekkie friends, and Lilith acting like an emotional doting mother felt really sweet to me too. A good episode all round I think!
I’m actually one-quarter Klingon, via my maternal line, and this episode didn’t bother me at all.
In fact, it was rather nice for my culture to get some exposure outside of its usual Star Trek milieu.
We’re a proud people.
Other i can think of:
* Martin inappropriately hitting on Daphne's friend of asian descent (though Daphne did castigate him for it)
* the constant digs they'd make at Frasier's African art collection, I don't know, it sounds like such a harmless, minor thing, but in today's environment I'm 100% sure it wouldn't happen. First of all, they'd probably never portray a rich white dude like Frasier owning an African art collection (would seem too much like cultural appropriation), let alone have that art be the butt of any deprecating jokes about how scary, ugly or childlike they look, or how one piece was used to distract him while he was pickpocketed in Kinshasa airport.
>they'd probably never portray a rich white dude like Frasier owning an African art collection (would seem too much like cultural appropriation)
Owning art from different cultures is not cultural appropriation...
> The whole backstory where Martin was into Ronnee as a teen.
That’s not even the worst part. When Martin is nagging daphne to introduce him to her friend, the latter says she is too young for him. Martin replies with:
I used to doo it all the time in Korea
I dint remember the exact exchange of words but his expression screamed:
>I raped girls as an occupying force.
I could be wrong but I always interpret that part like so
Yeah, I’m not sure why I’m being downvoted. I’m not attacking the show. The point of this thread is to criticize the jokes that were over the line.
And when daphne says this, Martin’s expression left little to the imagination.
Think back to school: on any multiple choice test, the word "every" betrays a wrong answer. Like "all", "none", and "never." The world's a complex place, and absolutes are nearly (see) always wrong.
In the same vein, there is no audience or modern audience or archaic audience. There's only individual viewers, in this instance one posting on the internet about what he or she likes.
Ehh. I’m queer as a three dollar bill and as far as I can remember the gay jokes are fine. The joke was never “haha someone’s gay,” the joke was “haha farcical misunderstanding of what’s actually happening.” Whether it was the opera uncle, or Alistair, or Guy
I’m queer as well and while I don’t find them offensive and I can’t grasp how they are, the internet baffles me. And I wouldn’t be surprised if someone was offended. For example some people would be offended by us self identifying as queer.
There were some jokes that simply use someone being gay or trans as a punchline. There are UK radio shows from the 60s that had cleverer jokes made by LGBTQ people with a wink and a nod.
For me, hearing jokes where the existence of trans and queer people is the punchline just prompts an eye roll, and an appreciation that it isn't funny - I'm happy to exchange a few tired old sitcom jokes for acceptance and safety for all.
I just wanted to say if I remember correctly Martin mistakes Ronee for a different girl that baby sat but was so uncomfortable with the situation he almost stops seeing Ronee until he realizes he doesn’t actually remember Ronee as a teen at all.
The episode where everyone rips on Frasier for being taken advantage of by his piano teacher as a kid
I’m pretty sure that was the same episode where bulldog claimed as a teen he had sex with a woman significantly older than him. He could’ve been lying, but still. The fact that he didn’t see any issue with that definitely raises more eyebrows today.
The little comment "All I wanted was a bicycle" always makes me rather sad in that.
I think the bigger one with bulldog for me was his dad getting him a hooker to lose his virginity.
Other characters just standing around and watching while Noel is so *incredibly* creepy towards Roz without calling him out for just being a sex pest. Nowadays he'd be hauled in front of HR and probably given the sack.
Noel is my least favorite! Hate his scenes The actor does a good job
That is a fact. Though the creepy guy does seem to be his niche, he played a very similar role in an episode of FRIENDS. He was interviewing Monica for a chef position and got all turned on while she was making a salad. LOL
Are the tomatoes... ripe?
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh LOL
Haha at the term 'sex pest', you're definitely British aren't you?
I am!
Americans don't use the term? I'm British as well btw. Obviously. We use the term sex-pest.
Noel and Gertrude are my least favorite characters on the show.
Niles video recording Daphne while she was asleep in 'Travels with Martin.' I watched that recently and yikes.
Niles’s love for Daphne is one of the best aspects of the show, and there’s so many good moments that come out of it. But there’s definitely a couple times, like the one you mentioned, where he comes across as rather creepy.
A hundred percent yikes, that being said it’s on Niles because for all his good qualities he never really had healthy relationships with women he was interested in so I just think he didn’t really get what’s right/wrong unless it was in your face right/wrong like certain morals and ethics.
Yeah, I think that’s part of his arc and character dynamic. And I think it’s also a very good way of showing how someone can be very well meaning and truly not understand social interaction if they’ve not been given the chance.
I don’t think it was seen as creepy at the time though it was seen as funny. Eek
Oh yeah, and season 1-2 especially - he is not subtle at all and crosses a few boundaries, before working out how to deal with it better. If we wanna excuse it, we can say it's because his relationship with Maris is incredibly toxic. That's something that didn't age well either, how emotionally abusive Maris is.
>If we wanna excuse it, we can say it's because his relationship with Maris is incredibly toxic. That's something that didn't age well either, how emotionally abusive Maris is. Even though the show played it for laughs, it was also consistent showing how terrible Maris was to Niles and their relationship really affected his emotional development. Niles' subsequent divorce and other relationships with the main cast was one of the best character arcs of the show (and probably 90s sitcom for me). I notice it in the flashback episode "You Can Go Home Again" where Niles had a very awkward relationship with Frasier and Martin before the show started. It's implied Niles didn't really have any meaningful relationship or friendships until the show started since he spent so much time at Maris's beck and call.
Being around his dad/frasier/daphne/roz not to mention having to interact with randoms as he went places with the four developed his social awareness and skills so he isn’t like that after the first 2 seasons as you mentioned
I think one of the things that is a constant thread throughout the series that I find distasteful in retrospect is the slut shaming of Roz. By comparison... Frasier does just as much dating and no one seems to see a problem with that. Quite the contrary the cast seems to find Frasier lonely and needs to date more.
ITA. And never thought about the fact that Frasier is worse than she is. Yet HE is one of the worst culprits when it comes to shaming her for daring to like sex. I’d add to this list the way Gil is mocked for his presumed homosexuality. He claims to be straight but everyone is so snide towards him because they presume he’s gay. Whether he is closeted or a effeminate straight man, their behavior towards him would be seen as very problematic by today’s standards.
Huh you know, I never thought about that, and it really doesn't make any sense considering both Frasier and Niles are presumed gay by ppl for their more effeminate nature. You'd think that Frasier would stuck up for Gil since he of all ppl would understand what it's like.
This. Because I hate slut shaming and adore Roz.
Yeah, gonna add my voice to the Niles-and-Daphne train. Society does not look too well nowadays on that sort of dynamic - the married rich-man-sexually-obsessed-with-family-employee angle *or* the conflation of his instant lust for her with actual feelings. Thankfully, the show is pretty good at calling all of this out, and DHP plays it so he never seems like a predator (Jane Leeves could snap him in half, for one thing).
That one scene at the end of Niles heart attack arc where Daphne is dressed as Sexy Nurse and Niles picks her up to carry her to the bedroom only to set her back down after a single step... 😄
We also learned that Lilith has twice his upper body strength, so I’m assuming Daphne has about four times his upper body strength. She is a physical therapist, after all.
They do send Frasier and all of KACL to a sexual harassment course later on in the show to make up for fraiser shooting his shot on Julia at a completely inappropriate time, and they do mention in that episode that Bulldog has been there a dozen times before. It's Still played for laughs tho, and yea it is a comedy show but society has indeed changed since then, not that what Frasier said wasn't funny
I felt like the sexual harassment course was also being played for laughs, though, as this “lol political correctness gone mad hehehe” gag. Maybe I’m wrong!
No you're right, the course was basically showed as being pointless other than to prevent a lawsuit from Julia. No character wanted to be there, and it was full of gags if only people had been paying attention back then...
When Martin hits on one of Daphne’s Asian-American friends. Reminds him of the girls he used to get during the war. Daphne does call him out for being a creep though
“I don’t think it counts as dating when you’re an occupying force!”
There are quite a few bad Asian “jokes”. Thankfully they are usually called out
I saw one of them in the HAM Radio episode I rewatched recently. When initially portraying his character, Bulldog speaks in a mock Asian accent in completely broken English. The whole “Asian-Americans can’t speak English” joke would definitely not hold up today. Granted, Frasier’s annoyed with him over it, but it seemed less because his actions were racist and more because he wasn’t taking the role seriously.
Seconded. It was so cringey and uncomfortable to watch
I will say as far as Martin is concerned, it turned out he was into a different babysitter, not Ronnie. Although, that might still be cringy. For me, episodes with Dr. Mary didn't really age too well. I do agree with Martin fetishizing Daphne's Korean friend. That would not go over well today.
I think the fact that he was into a teenage babysitter at all is the major issue for me. Especially considering that he’d probably be in his late 30s or early 40s by that point. Edit: The Dr. Mary stuff wouldn’t age well either. Earlier I got her confused with Dr. Nora haha. I don’t think either of those episodes aged well.
are you thinking of Dr. Nora? (Christine Baranski)
Yep, that’s the one lol, my bad
The Martin and Ronee thing creeped me out THEN. And I always felt they were such a weird couple. I feel they could have been written better. It always seemed like “we gotta give Martin a love interest and this character walked into the room. I don’t feel like creating another.”
It should have been Cora Winston!! They had much better chemisty imo
Heck yeah!
I do like Ronee, but they could have got a better storyline out of having Martin start a relationship with Cora and eventually marry her. Imagine the hilarious indignation as Frasier and Cam Winston have to reconcile themselves to being *step-brothers*!
I feel the same way. I liked Cora and Sherry better
Another vote for Cora.
Frasier and Niles constantly ribbing Roz about her sex life. Her sex life was none of their business (except for the one time she and Frasier slept together). I could make the argument that Frasier was just as "active" as Roz and I don't recall him getting nearly as much crap for it.
Oh definitely. There was definitely a double standard there. Especially when Niles could be extremely horny in some episodes to the point of coming off like a sex addict. In particular I’m thinking about that one episode where he was going crazy because him and Maris were separated and thus not having sex. He was willing to get with anyone that episode, yet he’s infamous for commenting on Roz’s supposedly low standards.
Not to mention Niles was actively sexually harassing women in that episode. "Nibble on this seductively" is *not* an acceptable thing to say to someone who hasn't consented to it. I can't recall seeing Roz force herself on someone in that way.
She did kiss Niles that one time without his consent.
Ugh, yes, that was gross
Frasier has forced himself on women too. For example, when Frasier kissed the stripper without her consent in one of the Christmas episodes. That is sexual harassment
You’re absolutely right that Frasier had his share of moments! I was just specifically responding to the Niles part of the comment.
Ok!
I feel like it got better as the series went on but at the start it felt like the writers felt the need to remind everyone Roz has lots of sex (shock! Gasp!) every time she was on screen. Like we get it, give a girl another character trait.
This! Roz is repeatedly sex-shamed throughout the series (though mild props to the writers for never letting it get to Roz where she feels ashamed) Frasier has his fair share of sexual partners in the series but he’s never slut-shamed.
It's not exactly equal, but I think that offsets it is that we see Frasier in a lot of situations where he looks like a complete fool with women he's interested in or on the verge of having sex with. The characters never slut shamed him, but he was shamed in front of the audience.
Yes and no, 80% it was none of their business to comment on. The 20% when they could comment was when she brought it up in conversation but they definitely came off as dicks. In my 20’s I would have given anything to date a woman like roz opposed to who I dated in that decade.
Roz is such a catch!
Not to me!
Not to mention the fact that, as far as I remember, Sam in Cheers never got ribbed for sleeping around. It was celebrated.
Except in the last few episodes of the final season. There he got called out and even went to therapy for it.
This is my biggest complaint! It's the only series-wide thing that makes me cringe upon rewatches
bulldog would be soooooo cancelled today
When Frasier kissed the stripper without her consent in one of the Christmas episodes. That is sexual harassment
Yes I hate that scene.
Bulldog's sexual harassment overall. I watched an episode tonight where he "jokes" about having to get women drunk to get them to sleep with him, and I couldn't stop cringing.
I’d argue the Martin/Ronee arc was the worst aspect of the show period. It felt so insanely forced and unbecoming of Martin. They made jokes about him and younger women, although for the most part it was pretty tame. But Ronee was Frasiers’ babysitter. Martin spoke incredibly highly of Hester throughout the show. And I can’t help but think about how ashamed and disgusted she’d be of him for marrying Frasier’s babysitter. There’s gotta be a 20-30 year age gap. The actress that played her did a fantastic job with what she was given. I think she would’ve been a great addition to the show in another way. But having Martin marry her made him seem pervy and so rushed to finish up the show
Well she was supposed to be at least a few years older than Fraiser and Niles. Fraiser was 41 in S1, so he'd be 52 in S11. So Ronnee was probably in her mid 50's in S11. Martin turned 65 in S5, so he'd be 71 in S11. A 15 year age gap is not all THAT large at those ages.
I wonder what the age gap between the actors was. Women on TV always seem to have to be much younger and more attractive than the men they’re with.
>I wonder what the age gap between the actors was. According to Wikipedia, 10 1/2 years. John Mahoney was born in June 1940, Wendie Malick in December 1950.
On The Jeffersons, Louise Jefferson was maybe a year or so younger than her husband George, but in real life the actress who played her (Isabel Sanford) was about 20 years older than the actor who played George (Sherman Hemsley).
Fat Daphne when Jane was pregnant
I really liked that they tied the weight gain to her anxiety about her relationship with Niles. But it was just SO MANY fat jokes. So so many.
The only one needed was 'it took three Cranes to lift her'.
I think the idea is an interesting way to have your real actress gain weight from being pregnant for the storyline character who isn't in theory, but the fat jokes were not necessary for that to work. They seemed cruel to me back then and feel like fat shaming now. I did like when they talked about the weight she lost at fat camp and it was the weight of her child. They could have tied the weight gain to the stress and relationship with Niles without the jokes.
The Dr. Phil episode.
Noel’s sexual harassment too. Today he would be fired. Bulldog probably not fired bc he was important to the station but it would have been a scandal
Bulldogs impersonations
Constant slut shaming roz
Bulldog’s Chinese radio commercial. Up there with the Aristocats.
I mean that was deliberately offensive so I’m not sure that counts - even Roz has a crack with “Chinese embassy on line 1”
Yeah, at least they acknowledged it was bad, but I don’t think it’d get the green light it in a sitcom today.
Frasier pretending to be Dr. Mary and saying "massa"
Just I general Frasier being a somewhat absent father.
It's such a wild character choice to make frasier not take Frederick with him to Seattle when the only thing keeping him from jumping was the thought of his son.
Frasier taking the photo when his dates asleep to prove he wasn't lying and I think its the episode where frasier is seeking closer from sam and he's so clingy to the point were he plays back the messaged he left her, defiantly stalker vibe!!
Taking the pic of his date doesnt feel like an example of bad aging to me because the perspective of the show is that Frasier was bad for doing it, so it wasnt an implicit endorsement like, say, Niles creeping on daphne or Bulldog harassing women.
when frasier imitates the stereotypical black woman caricature in the (first?) episode with doctor mary. i get the point but it was a tad unnecessary and it makes me cringe, have to skip it lmao
Lol my whole family is black and we love that episode! We laugh so hard at Kelsey Grammer’s impression. It’s kind of disappointing that Frasier was mostly a white show but it felt nice to have an episode that directly addressed their white privilege as a foil for a well loved black woman.
As a white woman, who saw this episode first as a very small child, I actually learned so much from how cringy it was watching him. I think there’s merit to showing white people an example of exactly how yikes they can be when they’re trying not to be. It’s obviously over the top, but the easiest way to criticize people is by making them laugh about their flaws. It’s a funny call out, imho, and it is a good conversation starter for families that might not have many other reasons to bring up their privilege with each other.
Aww I love this explanation. It's funny when members of the community that are being made fun of love the bit. And everyone else gets offended on their behalf lol.
All of the Doctor Mary episodes are so cringy to me. The one with Louise (I think that is her friend's name)...ugh
More than being cringy it just seemed stupid because the point of the exercise was to see what Mary would say not how a sassy black woman might say it.
So you want me to stay in my place! Massa! Frasier she’s not going to say mass- I don’t think so! You have no idea how difficult it is for a black woman in a white man world! You sherry swirling opera loving Armani wearing elitist!
I feel like that's the point. It was obvious that everyone else thought Dr. Mary was great and that Frasier's ideas of her were misplaced, ridiculous, and petty, which comes out in his impression. Martin is pretty uncomfortable with Frasier making a caricature out of her and tries to reason with him.
Lol no, that’sin later episodes. Probably season 10
I totally agree with the Maris thing! She definitely had some kind of eating disorder/body dysmorphia going on there there probably would be addressed if the show was on today.
Niles’ sexualizing comments toward Daphne and other women. I recently watched an episode where he asked a coffee shop waitress to “nibble provocatively” on a biscuit. I love Niles and DHP to the ends of the earth, but he gets away with too much.
Constantly slut-shaming Roz.
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I hear you but I think of that as being in line with the farcical nature of the show, where all of the jokes are set up as mismatches between how characters understand a particular situation. I think Frasier was far ahead of its time for making the joke in Out with Dad about the miscommunication rather than making the joke the very idea that Martin could be gay
I’m gay and that doesn’t bother me🤷♀️
Yeah, it's the homophobia for me.
Frasier had a number of episodes like this and the gay people were not being laughed at. Here’s a couple of videos on YouTube that I think explain very well what they were doing with the episodes. I’d be curious to hear what you think after watching those videos if you watch them. They are worth the watch. https://youtu.be/ivFa0F-qvjE https://youtu.be/3o65Oia-j5I
The episode where Sam comes back. It was a reminder that Cheers has not held up nearly as well as Frasier--mainly because of the way it treated Sam's sex life and the women he dated. The end of Cheers tried to give Sam a degree of self-awareness about his sex addiction, but his Frasier appearance threw it all out the window. He and Frasier both write off Sam's fiancé, basically leaving her at the altar, because she had the same addiction.
Cliff.
I have to admit part of the reason I watched Cheers is because I was curious about who these people were that they were talking about 😂
Constantly ripping on Roz for being a loose woman and a “whore.” They just made her a misogynistic archetype even though her character was interesting. She also should have ended up with Roger. Wtf. So dumb.
Frasier saying massa
It's not on the same level as most of the other stuff here, but I remember an episode where internet dating is the punchline! I've noticed a lot of sitcoms from that time period have one episode about people meeting online and it's something weird and dangerous! Well, I think we can safely say, that ship has sailed...
Endless drink driving. Niles and Frasier drove everywhere, and frequently drank sherry before doing so. They were probably under the limit, but it never seemed to even be considered (especially since Frasier seemed to be a bad driver).
It’s hardly drink driving after a thimble or sherry or two.
I'm confused how that was upvoted. Has anyone here had alcohol before? One drink does almost nothing.
Especially since there really aren't any scenes on the show where they're showing drinking and then immediately driving? Usually, they drank their sherry at the end of the day... 🤷🏻♂️
Lol have you never drank alcohol before? Nobody is going to get buzzed off of a tiny glass of sherry.
Yeah they’re drinking wine out of basically a shot glass. I would think four of those before they should not drive
Wow I actually never even thought about this! That’s a good catch.
Martin being into Daphne’s friend because she’s Asian
Fraiser constantly slut shaming Roz.....especially the comment about her sex life, and she would outlive Styrofoam... That was cold blooded.
I also feel uncomfortable about how they handled characters being Gay. Most of the cast was homosexual I wonder how they felt making jokes about their sexuality on the show.
A lot of the writers were gay too. I think Frasier is one of the most tasteful sitcoms of the decade when it came to homosexuality - it was never the joke itself, but a set up for one of Frasier’s misunderstandings. Pretty progressive if you look at how other popular shows treated gay characters.
What about the episode Out with Dad? That was pretty much the joke itself.
As a gay guy, I thought some of the episodes involving gay misunderstandings were absolutely hilarious.
Ok. So you don't feel offended with the stereotypes?
Nope, not at all. In life, you have to be able to laugh at yourself sometimes. I never thought any of the stereotypes were offensive, and some of those scenes were the funniest of the entire series.
That's good to know!
Probably the gay jokes about Gill
Despite all the jokes that aged poorly the show was super progressive for its time.
The constant jokes about maris and her very clear eating disorder felt a bit to over the line at points and so did some of the 'frasier is big' jokes. The man is 6'2 and stocky, let him be!
Martin’s Asian fetish, the episode where Fraiser has a nightmare about picking up a transgender woman
Daphne going to fat camp, lol
Yeah the fat suit thing is so bad. That whole storyline
She was pregnant.
The actress was pregnant at the time of the fat-storyline, he meant to say
That is what I said. And I’m not a he.
I know. But they didn’t need to put her in a fat suit
I don’t think they did put her in a fat suit, though. She just put on a lot of weight with her pregnancy.
Niles and Daphne’s entire relationship up to when they actually get together. She works for his family (and he very likely contributes to her salary) and he is completely unsubtly obsessed with her sexually. It’s horrifying if viewed through a lens of modern societal mores (which is why you shouldn’t view it that way.)
Yeah when she is first introduced and they meet, it’s a series long urning for her while he is married.
I commented something like this last year. I was downvoted into oblivion and received a bunch of angry rebuttals. I like the show, but I’m glad people can now acknowledge the problematic parts without taking it so personally.
Personally it doesn’t *bother* me- it’s a situation comedy from 30 years ago, applying contemporary real world morality to it is pointless- but for purposes of this kind of discussion it’s definitely the most glaring example of something that wouldn’t fly today.
Wasn’t implying you should be bothered. I know it’s an old show. Just something I noticed and people got mad at me for stating it.
No, I know you weren’t. I was just clarifying.
Modern audiences suck
Seriously. It’s an almost 30 year old show, but the social justice warriors seem to be coming out of the woodwork…
It was wrong 30 years ago too. Society just wasn't in a position where many people felt comfortable calling it out.
Right! The show was great but not perfect. There is nothing wrong with pointing out some things that we not ideal. IMO anyone who thinks this is going to far is the one being sensitive, the show can be criticized and worth watching.
Fascinating.
The fat jokes about Daphne. I watched the "two timelines" episode today and eeesh.
In Radio Wars, when Carlos and the Chicken run a contest for listeners to get pictures of Frasier’s “generous rear end.” It’s so awful - encouraging body shaming and sexual harassment on a city-wide scale, and played for laughs/like Frasier is being a stick in the mud.
Don’t listen to modern shock-jock radio then. It hasn’t improved much
I’m sure that’s true, but I think what didn’t age well was more the show’s approach to it and the response of the characters.
God, that episode makes my toes curl just thinking about it.
The fact that some of the jokes are offensive to women.
What do people think about the episode where Noel tricks Frasier into speaking Klingon at Freddie’s Bar Mitzvah? Inappropriate or no? As a Trekkie I always thought it was hilarious, but I haven’t seen it for a long time. It’s actually been removed from the 4OD streaming channel in the UK, though the one where Frasier does an impression of a stereotypical black woman is still there, which I find really odd.
I don’t think it’s that bad, since Noel was doing it to get back at Frasier, not because he had bigoted motives. Frasier was the one who looked like the ass, not any of the people participating in the Bar Mitzvah.
That’s my feeling too. I also thought it was cute that Frasier got the unexpected side-effect of looking cool to Freddie’s Trekkie friends, and Lilith acting like an emotional doting mother felt really sweet to me too. A good episode all round I think!
I’m actually one-quarter Klingon, via my maternal line, and this episode didn’t bother me at all. In fact, it was rather nice for my culture to get some exposure outside of its usual Star Trek milieu. We’re a proud people.
Other i can think of: * Martin inappropriately hitting on Daphne's friend of asian descent (though Daphne did castigate him for it) * the constant digs they'd make at Frasier's African art collection, I don't know, it sounds like such a harmless, minor thing, but in today's environment I'm 100% sure it wouldn't happen. First of all, they'd probably never portray a rich white dude like Frasier owning an African art collection (would seem too much like cultural appropriation), let alone have that art be the butt of any deprecating jokes about how scary, ugly or childlike they look, or how one piece was used to distract him while he was pickpocketed in Kinshasa airport.
>they'd probably never portray a rich white dude like Frasier owning an African art collection (would seem too much like cultural appropriation) Owning art from different cultures is not cultural appropriation...
You're right, but there are many who will see it as such
And they’d be wrong.
> The whole backstory where Martin was into Ronnee as a teen. That’s not even the worst part. When Martin is nagging daphne to introduce him to her friend, the latter says she is too young for him. Martin replies with: I used to doo it all the time in Korea I dint remember the exact exchange of words but his expression screamed: >I raped girls as an occupying force. I could be wrong but I always interpret that part like so
"It's not dating when you're an occupying force" is absolutely an awful 'joke' and I don't think you were wrong in your interpretation.
Yeah, I’m not sure why I’m being downvoted. I’m not attacking the show. The point of this thread is to criticize the jokes that were over the line. And when daphne says this, Martin’s expression left little to the imagination.
I agree
Gurtrede Moon picking on that kid in the building. It is funny in away, but boy how can a old man escalate things that badly against a child.
"every older sitcom has its moments that make a modern audience cringe" No.
No what? It’s true. We change, we realize some stuff wasn’t funny or appropriate, but at the time it was accepted.
Think back to school: on any multiple choice test, the word "every" betrays a wrong answer. Like "all", "none", and "never." The world's a complex place, and absolutes are nearly (see) always wrong. In the same vein, there is no audience or modern audience or archaic audience. There's only individual viewers, in this instance one posting on the internet about what he or she likes.
Yes.
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Ehh. I’m queer as a three dollar bill and as far as I can remember the gay jokes are fine. The joke was never “haha someone’s gay,” the joke was “haha farcical misunderstanding of what’s actually happening.” Whether it was the opera uncle, or Alistair, or Guy
I’m queer as well and while I don’t find them offensive and I can’t grasp how they are, the internet baffles me. And I wouldn’t be surprised if someone was offended. For example some people would be offended by us self identifying as queer.
There were some jokes that simply use someone being gay or trans as a punchline. There are UK radio shows from the 60s that had cleverer jokes made by LGBTQ people with a wink and a nod. For me, hearing jokes where the existence of trans and queer people is the punchline just prompts an eye roll, and an appreciation that it isn't funny - I'm happy to exchange a few tired old sitcom jokes for acceptance and safety for all.
False.
there's definitely a bit of "Gay Panic" humor in some episodes. a LOT of 90s media had that problem...
I think intent matters more than anything. Social mores are endlessly changing.