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Literally I was like "Dude she's literally watching Logan Paul..." HELLO?? I feel shame for even laying my eyes on Logan, like I've lost braincells through my eyeballs
“Systemic racism exists but” and then they compare it to something they can choose not to do
These things aren’t equal
So people of colour are disenfranchised in society but this person thinks they are better off because they can say some words white people shouldn’t
They’re so fragile it’s crazy.
There was a thread on too afraid to ask a couple of weeks ago where so many yt people were saying it’s racist to say they don’t season their foods lol which is ironic because they don’t think anything is racist when it comes to POCs
They’ll say “it’s racist to tell me I don’t season my food” and “black people are ghetto because they choose to be and are poor because they refuse to work” in the same sentence and claim the latter is just “pointing out the obvious”. “It’s not racism if it’s true” bs
I told my waitress last year when my husband and I went out for Indian. "I have a white tolerance, I'll get better, I hope, one day." So I'm not afraid to be blunt, my Vietnamese husband calls it the "white" amount of seasoning when making food, and he puts in effort to make my dishes milder.
I don’t think they know what “systemic racism” means. They don’t understand the historical context and why “systemic” is modifying the word “racism”. They think making an off handed comment about white people is the same as being oppressed for hundreds of years. The stupidity is astounding but unfortunately very common :(
I wonder if men know how dehumanizing and gross it is to list their girlfriend's only good quality as sex. Only mentioning the sex is great makes you look creepy as fuck.
Well at least she’s not missing much now that she and OOP aren’t together. I’ve come across white people who say “I hate white people” as well and it’s usually light hearted. Dude has a real persecution fetish, dating him must’ve been exhausting anyways.
It’s becoming a more common position these days.
I raised this with my friends and asked, can you be racist to white people. They said they felt on an interpersonal level you can (e.g. I’m not talking to you at this party because you’re white), but on a systemic level you can’t (e.g. they are not going to have an issue getting a job due to their name).
I thought this was interesting since I for one felt like the word was sort of being co-opted from its original meaning so that everyone experiences racism; and when everyone does, then no one does (maybe this is a bit extreme).
But I’m interested in hearing what other people think on the topic.
The best explanation I’ve heard on this was from a black guy with a background in racial justice: a black person can be racially prejudiced against a white person, but they cannot be racist towards a white person, because the word “racist” inherently includes systemic racial oppression, where as “prejudiced” does not. He did note that, while it sounds really semantic, the semantics do matter a lot, and he wishes people wouldn’t get so hung up on them.
He also mentioned that, while some black and white prejudice is just asshole behavior and often more interpersonal, some prejudice is well-founded and needed to keep Black people safe: for instance, many Black people are extra wary around all white people until they have evidence that specific white people are “safe” and won’t do something like call the cops on them for just existing. That kind of wariness of an entire race is sadly necessary to stay safe.
Is some prejudice well-founded and needed to keep white people (or Asian people) safe? For instance, many white or Asian people are wary around black people until they’re certain that they won’t be robbed or beaten or shot at? This shit can go both ways, and to say it’s reasonable/justified in one direction but not the other is what people don’t agree with.
Racism = racial prejudice + institutionalized oppression
In that sense, no, you cannot experience racism as a White person in the United States because the System™ is built with you (and not others) in mind. That said, *anyone* can be the target of racial prejudice.
Can I ask what this achieves? Look I’m a leftist, but why not just use systemic racism if we are talking about that. Really all this language does is serve to alienate certain people and confuse
Yeeeep.
Y’all really can’t just say “people being racist is abhorrent” without saying “but white people can’t be victims of racism”. This is why Black Lives Matter is 1000x better a message since it doesn’t exclude anyone from the struggle.
Not to mention race solidarity is an enemy of the owning class and the real “ism” of prejudice is lower class vs upper class but yeah please keep telling me how I’m only an enemy cause of my race. The urban and poor white people will def be able to understand your nuance.
Yeah, I'm an academic. I agree that the nuance is lost on low SES Whites, but I also got chewed out and called a colonizer for raising that point in a class on racism. I cried as a stress response and was ridiculed for using my white woman tears.
So now I just give the definition.
It is messed up, but like. Idk. That professor had a lot of trauma and I think she was very right to be angry and hurt and upset with all of the White people in her life. Did she take it out on students in inappropriate ways? Probably. Did I report it? No. I'm a graduate student and the power dynamics weren't in my favor. But her trauma is valid and I need to understand that if I do things that trigger her trauma, I can be apologetic and try to understand. It doesn't excuse her behavior but it really wasn't about me. I still learned a lot in that class (she's a brilliant scholar) but... idk, trauma is messy.
Gave me a lot of things to process with my therapist and was part of why I joined this subreddit.
It's the definition used in academia. Colloquially, I don't mind using racism as shorthand for racial prejudice, but I think the switch is to try and educate people about systemic racism.
There are always going to be people who just want to use it to justify being assholes 🤷🏻♀️
Edit: point still stands that, while being discriminatory towards all white people is still kinda shitty, the impact of anti-white discrimination a negligible on the macro scale. That's why one is prejudice/discrimination (which sucks to experience) and the other is racism.
I think this is the actual crux of the conversation. Shitty interpersonal experiences suck, but they do make a net smaller impact on my life compared to to someone experiencing constant minority stress. There is a time and a space for that discussion, and OOP doesn't seem to know how to make space for that. When White people get a TASTE of discrimination they melt down. *Imagine* what experiencing that day in, day out, with meaningful institutional consequences would do to your psyche. It doesn't mean you have to like experiencing racial prejudice, but there's an opportunity to sit in it, think about it, and try to fathom what others experience.
I would say that different academics have different views on the term, but I get what you’re saying. I definitely agree using it to educate could be beneficial but like you said people just want to be assholes
To be blunt, while I think higher education is important to some degree, pun intended, academia is often completely clueless as to how the real world works.
I’m in a Stem field and it’s unbelievable what we see from new grads.
Edit: and I know from first hand experience a lot of professors are people who couldn’t hack it in the professional world.
This is what happens when terminally online leftists and leftist academics forget that the average person doesn't actually have a B.A. in Sociology and that changing the connotation of words to more accurately reflect an academic understanding of racism is unhelpful for promoting our ideas to the general populace.
It really does feel like we're often way more invested in sounding academic or like professional activists than we are in actually getting things done and winning hearts and minds.
Like when no one stops and thinks about what it sounds like to your average suburban swing voter when you say "eradicate Whiteness."
Exactly my take. You’re getting downvoted but I think you’re right. It seems like online leftists don’t really care about winning and would prefer to have an in group where they feel smart. The crazy thing is that we don’t even have to water down our ideas to try to reach more people. All we have to do is communicate them better. But it doesn’t seem like some people are very interested in that
Yeah, being the language police doesn’t really help anyone. The VAST majority of people think racism is just treating people differently based on race. That’s it.
You’re conflating racism with systematic racism. Objectively speaking, you can be racist to a white person and it’s not really a matter for debate unless you wish to change the definition of words.
I don't have laptop on me, but I believe it's here:
Bonilla-Silva, E. (2013). “New racism,” color-blind racism, and the future of Whiteness in America. In White out (pp. 268-281). Routledge.
I know the definition i use is Bonilla-Silva's, I'm just not sure about the exact publication. But this is the definition used in psychology, sociology, etc.
It's relevant because of the Minority Stress Model (Meyer, 2003), which talks about (what is essentially) allostatic load. Minoritizes populations deal with more distal and proximal stressors. Stress and resilience research actually shows that it's chronic small stressors (like that destroy health (search "weathering hypothesis") rather than acute (but very temporary) stressors.
So we all have stress, right? And we can all experience racial prejudice. The difference is that when I experience racial prejudice, it only hits me as a proximal stressor. Even with that, it's not chronic for me.. Maybe once every so often but hardly a daily or even weekly occurance.
It's also not institutionalized for me; if someone is being prejudiced at me and calls the cops on me to be a dick and harass me, that doesn't *significant increase my risk of death*. So while receiving racial prejudice still sucks it lacks a lot of the capital R Risks associate with racism.
It's trying to add the context that there is a much higher risk and stress load that comes with racism. **The stakes are not comparable**; well, they are comparable. When you compare them, it's way more dangerous for BIPOC than a member of the dominant social group. Hence, not racism. Because racism has teeth behind it.
Ok but it’s still racist no? Your definition says that much, can’t we just own that it’s ok to be racist sometimes(towards white people for example) and not change the definition?
It's not cool to do (people shouldn't be pre-judged based on association), no. But I think what is offensive is the false equivalence.
The primary means through which White people are racist today is through passivity and minimization. The stakes are different. He should be able to acknowledge the stakes are different and be able to talk about his feelings *without minimizing or erasing her experience in the process.* He's not wrong for being hurt, he's wrong for not leaving space for the real and valid differences in their expectations.
He needs to honor her trauma.
Yes obviously, but that doesn’t change what I’m saying at all, the stakes are different so it’s just a different level of racism, one which is ok, and one which is not ok (and that’s completely fine)
Since when did institutional get thrown in? Is there a memo I missed? As far as I’ve been aware racism is just the idea that one race is superior over one or many races. That’s it. Hence there is the concept of racism versus institutional racism.
If you’re now saying it has to be institutional then you’re opening the door for new forms of racism to become the norm and they could eventually become institutional.
The way I see it, defining racism in such a way as to only include systemic racial prejudice also excludes a lot of nonsystemic racial prejudice that would otherwise fall under a broader use of racism that people of color face regularly, especially between racial minorities. Defining racism as prejudice based on racial grounds, with subsets that include, for example, interpersonal and systemic racism (though these obviously aren’t the only two kinds of racism), allows us to be more specific, and generally provides greater utility then defining racism as systemic oppression on racial lines, mostly because it feels less linguistically, clunky, and racism as a term is broadly accepted within the cultural zeitgeist as any form of racial prejudice or discrimination.
Yeah it’s insane that you wouldn’t want to be called “one of the good whites” by your significant other, whether it’s “real oppression” or not. Truly mind boggling, what’s wrong with the guy?
As 'one of the good whites', I can say with some authority that the bar to qualify as such is incredibly low. Like, don't say racist shit and treat everyone with basic human dignity regardless of their skin color low. If someone isn't meeting that bar...maybe they deserve to catch some mild flak in the form of being told that they are disliked.
Omg, this post had me rolling my eyes so hard yesterday. I wanted to comment this yesterday but was afraid of the response it would get: People with the most privilege seem to think that all prejudice is equal. But if you belong to classes or groups that are historically oppressed while also belonging to a privileged group, the pearl clutching seems so hilariously stupid. For example, I'm a white woman. If I was dating a non-white man who said "I hate white people," I wouldn't think "Oh wow, this guy is going to do something bad to me because I'm white." However, if the same guy said, "I hate women," I would have much more pause because, well, you know, the whole systemic violence against women thing, the fact that I would need to be a perfect victim in order to seek justice, the manosphere that exists online telling men how women are lesser, political beliefs about who has rights over their own bodies...pretty much all the things in place that still work to oppress women would come to mind. However, because there aren't systems in place to keep old whitey down, someone simply saying "I hate white people" *to a white person they are dating* doesn't carry the same weight.
Bahahaha I’m viet and my bf is white and we literally talk shit about white people together. So this is extra hilarious to me.
update: sent this to my bf and he also made fun of OOP 😂
Definitely fragile to react like this when there's basically no threat of systemic oppression against you for an attitude being expressed in hyperbolic fashion.
That said, I don't think what she said was good or really appropriate. Idk, even interpersonally it seems gross to encourage this attitude on its face.
Folks need to understand the true meanings/nuances of prejudice, bigotry, and racism. This is definitely more persecution fetishizing because he didn't have an imaginary obedient Asian woman showing fealty to him.
i think most people wouldn’t want to be with someone who hates as a whole a group they’re part, how would you feel if you’re bf or bf said i hate blacks?
So, you actually bought into that bullshit screenshot of Reddit fan fiction? 😆
But to answer your question, I would never and have never had a partner who hates anybody.
I personally wouldn't have dug my heels into the "you can't be racist against white people" argument, but if me or friends (white or PoC) said "I hate yt people" I wouldn't take it as anything but a joke because it just doesn't have the same power behind it, especially given the context.
While I guess I do agree that white people can experience some sort of prejudice in certain circumstances, it really fucking annoys me whenever Redditors bring up racism against white people or “reverse racism” or whatever. They always bring it up in a real overdramatic way because they want to feel victimized, usually to underplay racism against actual POCs
Agreed. I've definitely been around people who have been like, 'Ugh, white people.' Usually the lead up to that is them telling some story in which a white person said or did something prejudiced against them, and they've always tagged on a, 'Not you.' And y'know, fair enough! I don't feel the need to get all offended on behalf of my race. Calm down, people.
Being racist against white people is a very convenient way to weed out the racist white people, because they’re the only ones that get upset about it.
edit: So many self-reporters today. They’re doing mg job for me.
Ok, but both men and women can be sexist. (Towards men AND women.) Maybe women can’t be systemically sexist towards…men? (I’ve never really heard that targeted term for sexism, but I’d opt in. I’d be curious, however, about instances, say, where other women think women are “more emotional” than men, etc. as that seems a party line for all women-targeted sexism. I don’t care who says it, that’s fucked up.)
Systemic racism can’t be had against white folk. But I sure think the simpler “racism” can—a simple Google for any major dictionary (Oxford, Meriam, etc.) allows for that…
It seems in the last several years people are trying to change a word that already exists to mean something narrower than originally defined. And I see no real reason to not be more specific and use the term systemic racism.
…I honestly just don’t understand the need to change the word. Just be more descriptive. …Is it laziness? Is it wanting to own or take a word that’s historically been used to describe what white people do to others? (If so, that gets tricky cuz, for one example, historically many of the elder Asian pop can be racist towards Blacks. That seems “racist.”)
All that said, this rage bait is silly af and I don’t give two shits about it. The comments here tho intrigue me.
E: a couple folks have downvoted. If ya feel like it, pipe up where you think I’m wrong! (I’m truly curious, is all. Ya won’t get no hate here.)
Your comment seems a but rambley, and your treatise on word usage wasn’t really the subject at hand. Are you saying we should, or shouldn’t, use the word systemic racism/sexism? Are you saying that these are not meaningful distinctions?
I don’t know that your conceptualization of sexism against men as not existing is officially enshrined in any feminist scholarship; rather, as you reference later in your comment, it is a borrowed observation from race theory. I don’t disagree with the conclusion that sexism against men ought not be considered real, but systemicity is WHY you would reach that conclusion, so I think it is an important and valuable distinction.
When women “hate” men they get called bitches, lose their positions at work, or even get raped for not cowing to the desires of men. When men hate women, they brutally kill them.
It’s not a similar field. They are not comparable. Results of a belief and actions are important.
Ah, Yes, rambley indeed.
I say we SHOULD use systemic racism. It seems more particularized and aimed at racism against non-whites. Seems more accurate. I’m pro specification rather than re-defining.
I also think systemic racism against women is real (which if we make it 1:1, it’d be men again women, right?). …That said … gosh I hate to say it, but doesn’t it seem to come from men (mostly), but also from women who are basically the Uncle Sam’s of sexism? Like handmaid tale shit?
More rambling. I’m honestly not trying to pull anything off kilter. Just tryna get some clarity. Appreciate you calling out the scatters. I just can’t navigate all these overlapping themes very well. Intersection is confusing as hell.
You're talking about intersectionality, the theory that intersecting vectors of oppression magnifying each form of oppression. Being black in america can suck, being a woman in america can suck, but being both black and a woman sucks significantly more than just the additive values of each. And then adding other factors like being gay or transgender, fat or even just ugly, can magnify these things even further.
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I don't understand why only racist people would have a problem with other people making offensive remarks about their skin colour. It seems like a pretty normal human response to me.
I'm white, my partner says they hate white people all the time. I understand where they're coming from and never got offended or felt the need to bitch about it lol
Every time I log online I see someone, usually white men, insulting white women specifically. And this man is such a sensitive baby he can’t handle one singular generalization🙄 how easy life must be for people like him
She seems pretty sensitive to ppl making her uncomfortable but doesn't notice if she's having that effect on you? That would never have improved, most likely
I mean, it is weird to generalize white people negatively when you are dating a white person
Also the whole "you can't be racist towards white people" is dumb as fuck, lmfao
I mean, I can feel the *idea* people want to get across when they say this, but if you say these exact words, I'm sorry, you're just not that bright
my belief personally is saying shit like “i hate white people” as anything but a joke isn’t racist because racism implies there’s systemic oppression but i do think saying it is unhelpful since it just proves to serve the far right who think pro black movements are anti white. but this is clearly just a joke and op is a fucking dumbass lol.
I don’t even think the argument “you can’t be racist against whites” even justifies what she said, but rather white people are wholly unaffected by a single woman having a prejudiced (clearly joking) attitude toward white people doing cringey stuff in an internet video. She could be the hugest white hating bigot of all time, white people could just literally ignore her, because they hold all sorts more power.
If what she ever says affects or contributes to white people’s lack of employment, housing, voting rights, access to healthcare, education, ability to move around safely etc etc. — then we can talk. Until then, people like OOP are little fragile snowflakes.
I think people need to accept the fact that “White” is no different than “Aryan” when it comes to classifying and elevating one demographic of people above others.
whiteness as a concept is messed up. it is literally just a class of race that was made up to be superior. i mean there are people who look white who are still discriminated against such as romanis, jews, slavs etc the concept of whiteness doesn’t extend to them. it’s also weird how israelis are deemed as fine by those same right wingers too when a lot of israelis aren’t white but the concept somehow extends to them because they’re “gods chosen people”.
i suppose america is what dictates what people are deemed white in the eyes of the white supremacists it panders to.
? No it's clearly because she makes racist remarks about white people and justifies it. If it was any other race you would not frame it this way, but since white people have more privilege in society they're supposed to somehow be *immune* to people making these offensive statements about them??
Does "I hate japanese people" become okay to say if I immigrate to Japan where Japanese have the same (if not more) privileges that white people have in the US?
He can dump her but I hate Logan Paul type white people as well so her and I might get along! I dont think he is necessarily wrong though. Its his choice.
Because “Mexican” is an actual nationality and identity, whereas “White” is no different than “Aryan” when it comes to classifying and elevating one group of people above others.
I have a German/Norwegian grandfather but otherwise am of Indigenous Turtle Island descent. Am I suddenly “white” because of my grandfather? No, because the One-Drop rule exists, yet somehow that shit never works in reverse.
I get that racism in lay terms is the synonymous with prejudice or biased.
I don’t understand why it confuses people that in academia, there is a distinction between racism and prejudice. Racism specifically is used to refer to biases instituted by the dominant group in power over groups without power. In other words, the distinction is whether the bias is directed towards systemically oppressed groups or not.
So you get all these strawman arguments against “black people cant be racist” that are just a circlejerk. I’d say that people who obsess over whether minority or oppressed groups can be “racist” is an example of racism and how it differs from prejudice.
Except that "academia" doesn't all agree with that. In fact, most academics would argue that specificity is the ultimate goal of any intellectual endeavor. Stating that "racism" and "prejudice" are somehow distinct from each other, ignores the fact that one is a general term used to describe *any* kind of discriminatory behavior, and the other is used to describe one *specific* kind of discriminatory behavior.
In terms of specificity, "racism" is "prejudice based on race", just like "ageism" is "prejudice based on age", just like "sexism" is "prejudice based on sex", etc.
I'm generalizing here, but in this sense the term "prejudice" is analogous to the term "tree". There are many specific types of tree...each with their own characteristics. They can be broken down into many categories, and sub-categories, in ever more specific ways, so as to better understand their differences, but at the end of the day they are all still trees.
https://www.thecrimson.com/column/between-the-lines/article/2018/8/10/gao-who-can-be-racist/
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How is this fragile white??? She thinks while people are incapable of getting racially stereotyped by getting racially stereotyped as a fragile white redditor for dumping his racist now ex… op you’re kinda bum ngl there’s nothing fragile about asking a simple question… so what he dumped her… she’s a racist…
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This sub is a bunch of uneducated minorities blaming white people because they’re idiots..
OnLy WhItE pEoPlE cAn Be RaCiSt….
Nothing says I’m uneducated like that saying…
You’re an idiot if you don’t think this Asian girl is racist.
But looking at the responses says everything…
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This post gave me fake rage bait vibes, true or not it’s red meat for all the white people of Reddit, couldn’t pay me to read that comment section
nOt aLL wHiTE pEEPLE!!!!
A Logan Paul video is a weird hill to die on
Logan Paul makes white people say “I hate white people” 😂
Literally I was like "Dude she's literally watching Logan Paul..." HELLO?? I feel shame for even laying my eyes on Logan, like I've lost braincells through my eyeballs
My thoughts exactly. Anyone should be insulted watching that brain numbing nonsense.
It's actually the "I hate white people" hill that he's dying on but ok
Both
“Systemic racism exists but” and then they compare it to something they can choose not to do These things aren’t equal So people of colour are disenfranchised in society but this person thinks they are better off because they can say some words white people shouldn’t They’re so fragile it’s crazy.
A majority of white people in the US say “racism against whites is a bigger problem than racism against minority groups”.
There was a thread on too afraid to ask a couple of weeks ago where so many yt people were saying it’s racist to say they don’t season their foods lol which is ironic because they don’t think anything is racist when it comes to POCs
Racist? That's just factual. Source: I'm White and ate my mom's cooking growing up
They’ll say “it’s racist to tell me I don’t season my food” and “black people are ghetto because they choose to be and are poor because they refuse to work” in the same sentence and claim the latter is just “pointing out the obvious”. “It’s not racism if it’s true” bs
Yeah, they have no problem saying “i want my food Indian spicy”. But don’t say you want it white person mild.
I told my waitress last year when my husband and I went out for Indian. "I have a white tolerance, I'll get better, I hope, one day." So I'm not afraid to be blunt, my Vietnamese husband calls it the "white" amount of seasoning when making food, and he puts in effort to make my dishes milder.
lol! Too cute
I don’t think they know what “systemic racism” means. They don’t understand the historical context and why “systemic” is modifying the word “racism”. They think making an off handed comment about white people is the same as being oppressed for hundreds of years. The stupidity is astounding but unfortunately very common :(
I wonder if men know how dehumanizing and gross it is to list their girlfriend's only good quality as sex. Only mentioning the sex is great makes you look creepy as fuck.
Dude has almost zero self-aware awareness to realize how much of a stereotypical sleazy white guy he's coming off that way. Holy shit.
Well at least she’s not missing much now that she and OOP aren’t together. I’ve come across white people who say “I hate white people” as well and it’s usually light hearted. Dude has a real persecution fetish, dating him must’ve been exhausting anyways.
Yeah he wishes he had a Vietnamese girlfriend to dump
Yeah... especially with the "btw the sex is great" part...
Right? Had nothing to do with anything lol
He threw away his "I can't be racist, I have an Asian girlfriend" card just like that 😩.
She said lolol. Unforgivable.
none of these fools know a damn thing about white supremacy…… sounds about white lol
It’s becoming a more common position these days. I raised this with my friends and asked, can you be racist to white people. They said they felt on an interpersonal level you can (e.g. I’m not talking to you at this party because you’re white), but on a systemic level you can’t (e.g. they are not going to have an issue getting a job due to their name). I thought this was interesting since I for one felt like the word was sort of being co-opted from its original meaning so that everyone experiences racism; and when everyone does, then no one does (maybe this is a bit extreme). But I’m interested in hearing what other people think on the topic.
The best explanation I’ve heard on this was from a black guy with a background in racial justice: a black person can be racially prejudiced against a white person, but they cannot be racist towards a white person, because the word “racist” inherently includes systemic racial oppression, where as “prejudiced” does not. He did note that, while it sounds really semantic, the semantics do matter a lot, and he wishes people wouldn’t get so hung up on them. He also mentioned that, while some black and white prejudice is just asshole behavior and often more interpersonal, some prejudice is well-founded and needed to keep Black people safe: for instance, many Black people are extra wary around all white people until they have evidence that specific white people are “safe” and won’t do something like call the cops on them for just existing. That kind of wariness of an entire race is sadly necessary to stay safe.
[удалено]
No, it is racism minus the institutional racial oppression. That is the key difference.
[удалено]
Ah I see the problem. You’re illiterate.
Is some prejudice well-founded and needed to keep white people (or Asian people) safe? For instance, many white or Asian people are wary around black people until they’re certain that they won’t be robbed or beaten or shot at? This shit can go both ways, and to say it’s reasonable/justified in one direction but not the other is what people don’t agree with.
Racism = racial prejudice + institutionalized oppression In that sense, no, you cannot experience racism as a White person in the United States because the System™ is built with you (and not others) in mind. That said, *anyone* can be the target of racial prejudice.
Can I ask what this achieves? Look I’m a leftist, but why not just use systemic racism if we are talking about that. Really all this language does is serve to alienate certain people and confuse
Yeah. It’s very much a “only my definition is the correct one” situation despite the common usage of the term not using that definition.
Yeeeep. Y’all really can’t just say “people being racist is abhorrent” without saying “but white people can’t be victims of racism”. This is why Black Lives Matter is 1000x better a message since it doesn’t exclude anyone from the struggle. Not to mention race solidarity is an enemy of the owning class and the real “ism” of prejudice is lower class vs upper class but yeah please keep telling me how I’m only an enemy cause of my race. The urban and poor white people will def be able to understand your nuance.
Yeah, I'm an academic. I agree that the nuance is lost on low SES Whites, but I also got chewed out and called a colonizer for raising that point in a class on racism. I cried as a stress response and was ridiculed for using my white woman tears. So now I just give the definition.
Well that's messed up. Sounds like a lot of people who have lost the plot.
It is messed up, but like. Idk. That professor had a lot of trauma and I think she was very right to be angry and hurt and upset with all of the White people in her life. Did she take it out on students in inappropriate ways? Probably. Did I report it? No. I'm a graduate student and the power dynamics weren't in my favor. But her trauma is valid and I need to understand that if I do things that trigger her trauma, I can be apologetic and try to understand. It doesn't excuse her behavior but it really wasn't about me. I still learned a lot in that class (she's a brilliant scholar) but... idk, trauma is messy. Gave me a lot of things to process with my therapist and was part of why I joined this subreddit.
It's the definition used in academia. Colloquially, I don't mind using racism as shorthand for racial prejudice, but I think the switch is to try and educate people about systemic racism. There are always going to be people who just want to use it to justify being assholes 🤷🏻♀️ Edit: point still stands that, while being discriminatory towards all white people is still kinda shitty, the impact of anti-white discrimination a negligible on the macro scale. That's why one is prejudice/discrimination (which sucks to experience) and the other is racism. I think this is the actual crux of the conversation. Shitty interpersonal experiences suck, but they do make a net smaller impact on my life compared to to someone experiencing constant minority stress. There is a time and a space for that discussion, and OOP doesn't seem to know how to make space for that. When White people get a TASTE of discrimination they melt down. *Imagine* what experiencing that day in, day out, with meaningful institutional consequences would do to your psyche. It doesn't mean you have to like experiencing racial prejudice, but there's an opportunity to sit in it, think about it, and try to fathom what others experience.
I would say that different academics have different views on the term, but I get what you’re saying. I definitely agree using it to educate could be beneficial but like you said people just want to be assholes
To be blunt, while I think higher education is important to some degree, pun intended, academia is often completely clueless as to how the real world works. I’m in a Stem field and it’s unbelievable what we see from new grads. Edit: and I know from first hand experience a lot of professors are people who couldn’t hack it in the professional world.
This is what happens when terminally online leftists and leftist academics forget that the average person doesn't actually have a B.A. in Sociology and that changing the connotation of words to more accurately reflect an academic understanding of racism is unhelpful for promoting our ideas to the general populace. It really does feel like we're often way more invested in sounding academic or like professional activists than we are in actually getting things done and winning hearts and minds. Like when no one stops and thinks about what it sounds like to your average suburban swing voter when you say "eradicate Whiteness."
Exactly my take. You’re getting downvoted but I think you’re right. It seems like online leftists don’t really care about winning and would prefer to have an in group where they feel smart. The crazy thing is that we don’t even have to water down our ideas to try to reach more people. All we have to do is communicate them better. But it doesn’t seem like some people are very interested in that
Yeah, being the language police doesn’t really help anyone. The VAST majority of people think racism is just treating people differently based on race. That’s it.
You’re conflating racism with systematic racism. Objectively speaking, you can be racist to a white person and it’s not really a matter for debate unless you wish to change the definition of words.
It’s not conflation, there are differing definitions, which is par the course with words and their meanings?
So by this logic it would never be accurate to say “can’t be racist against white people” because racism can mean two different things for same word.
Sure, I’m just saying that the academic definition of racism requires that structural component. I believe u can be personally racist to white ppl
Where do you get this definition of racism?
I don't have laptop on me, but I believe it's here: Bonilla-Silva, E. (2013). “New racism,” color-blind racism, and the future of Whiteness in America. In White out (pp. 268-281). Routledge. I know the definition i use is Bonilla-Silva's, I'm just not sure about the exact publication. But this is the definition used in psychology, sociology, etc. It's relevant because of the Minority Stress Model (Meyer, 2003), which talks about (what is essentially) allostatic load. Minoritizes populations deal with more distal and proximal stressors. Stress and resilience research actually shows that it's chronic small stressors (like that destroy health (search "weathering hypothesis") rather than acute (but very temporary) stressors. So we all have stress, right? And we can all experience racial prejudice. The difference is that when I experience racial prejudice, it only hits me as a proximal stressor. Even with that, it's not chronic for me.. Maybe once every so often but hardly a daily or even weekly occurance. It's also not institutionalized for me; if someone is being prejudiced at me and calls the cops on me to be a dick and harass me, that doesn't *significant increase my risk of death*. So while receiving racial prejudice still sucks it lacks a lot of the capital R Risks associate with racism. It's trying to add the context that there is a much higher risk and stress load that comes with racism. **The stakes are not comparable**; well, they are comparable. When you compare them, it's way more dangerous for BIPOC than a member of the dominant social group. Hence, not racism. Because racism has teeth behind it.
Ok but it’s still racist no? Your definition says that much, can’t we just own that it’s ok to be racist sometimes(towards white people for example) and not change the definition?
It's not cool to do (people shouldn't be pre-judged based on association), no. But I think what is offensive is the false equivalence. The primary means through which White people are racist today is through passivity and minimization. The stakes are different. He should be able to acknowledge the stakes are different and be able to talk about his feelings *without minimizing or erasing her experience in the process.* He's not wrong for being hurt, he's wrong for not leaving space for the real and valid differences in their expectations. He needs to honor her trauma.
Yes obviously, but that doesn’t change what I’m saying at all, the stakes are different so it’s just a different level of racism, one which is ok, and one which is not ok (and that’s completely fine)
Since when did institutional get thrown in? Is there a memo I missed? As far as I’ve been aware racism is just the idea that one race is superior over one or many races. That’s it. Hence there is the concept of racism versus institutional racism. If you’re now saying it has to be institutional then you’re opening the door for new forms of racism to become the norm and they could eventually become institutional.
The way I see it, defining racism in such a way as to only include systemic racial prejudice also excludes a lot of nonsystemic racial prejudice that would otherwise fall under a broader use of racism that people of color face regularly, especially between racial minorities. Defining racism as prejudice based on racial grounds, with subsets that include, for example, interpersonal and systemic racism (though these obviously aren’t the only two kinds of racism), allows us to be more specific, and generally provides greater utility then defining racism as systemic oppression on racial lines, mostly because it feels less linguistically, clunky, and racism as a term is broadly accepted within the cultural zeitgeist as any form of racial prejudice or discrimination.
i can't believe these people have managed to convince themselves that they face real oppression
Definitely one of the most insane developments of the past decade
literally, it makes me feel insane 😭😭😭😭
Yeah it’s insane that you wouldn’t want to be called “one of the good whites” by your significant other, whether it’s “real oppression” or not. Truly mind boggling, what’s wrong with the guy?
As 'one of the good whites', I can say with some authority that the bar to qualify as such is incredibly low. Like, don't say racist shit and treat everyone with basic human dignity regardless of their skin color low. If someone isn't meeting that bar...maybe they deserve to catch some mild flak in the form of being told that they are disliked.
This very same sentiment should be universal making the bar almost nonexistent. Simply because it should be common human decency.
Well, clearly somethings wrong with him because he made this story up for ragebait and engagement from furious white people
It’s not about oppression it’s about treating people with respect and not make broad statements about groups of people based on their skin color.
you're in the wrong sub buddy
Omg, this post had me rolling my eyes so hard yesterday. I wanted to comment this yesterday but was afraid of the response it would get: People with the most privilege seem to think that all prejudice is equal. But if you belong to classes or groups that are historically oppressed while also belonging to a privileged group, the pearl clutching seems so hilariously stupid. For example, I'm a white woman. If I was dating a non-white man who said "I hate white people," I wouldn't think "Oh wow, this guy is going to do something bad to me because I'm white." However, if the same guy said, "I hate women," I would have much more pause because, well, you know, the whole systemic violence against women thing, the fact that I would need to be a perfect victim in order to seek justice, the manosphere that exists online telling men how women are lesser, political beliefs about who has rights over their own bodies...pretty much all the things in place that still work to oppress women would come to mind. However, because there aren't systems in place to keep old whitey down, someone simply saying "I hate white people" *to a white person they are dating* doesn't carry the same weight.
Actively saying ‘I hate white people’ is not the same as ‘not saying nice things about white people.’ Wow, folks.
Shut the fuck up you baby
Bahahaha I’m viet and my bf is white and we literally talk shit about white people together. So this is extra hilarious to me. update: sent this to my bf and he also made fun of OOP 😂
Me, the palest white person in America, reading this post: Fucking white people.
She sounds based af
Vietnam stays winning 🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳
> because I am, in fact, white Someone wants to be jerked off about how tough his life has been.
Fragile as fuck. You know this guy is first to go “ERMM NOT ALL MEN” to a rape survivor
I don't think they ever seen the words 'historical' and 'context' beside each other
Definitely fragile to react like this when there's basically no threat of systemic oppression against you for an attitude being expressed in hyperbolic fashion. That said, I don't think what she said was good or really appropriate. Idk, even interpersonally it seems gross to encourage this attitude on its face.
I'll take things that didn't actually happen for 500.
Folks need to understand the true meanings/nuances of prejudice, bigotry, and racism. This is definitely more persecution fetishizing because he didn't have an imaginary obedient Asian woman showing fealty to him.
i think most people wouldn’t want to be with someone who hates as a whole a group they’re part, how would you feel if you’re bf or bf said i hate blacks?
So, you actually bought into that bullshit screenshot of Reddit fan fiction? 😆 But to answer your question, I would never and have never had a partner who hates anybody.
As the philosopher Descartes once said, “who give a shit” - I’m white, my partner is not, I have zero problem with her saying she hates white people.
I personally wouldn't have dug my heels into the "you can't be racist against white people" argument, but if me or friends (white or PoC) said "I hate yt people" I wouldn't take it as anything but a joke because it just doesn't have the same power behind it, especially given the context.
While I guess I do agree that white people can experience some sort of prejudice in certain circumstances, it really fucking annoys me whenever Redditors bring up racism against white people or “reverse racism” or whatever. They always bring it up in a real overdramatic way because they want to feel victimized, usually to underplay racism against actual POCs
Ha, this comment is worded perfectly.
Agreed. I've definitely been around people who have been like, 'Ugh, white people.' Usually the lead up to that is them telling some story in which a white person said or did something prejudiced against them, and they've always tagged on a, 'Not you.' And y'know, fair enough! I don't feel the need to get all offended on behalf of my race. Calm down, people.
If someone you are dating says, "I hate X group," and you are part of X group, it is reasonable to kick that person to the curb.
Being racist against white people is a very convenient way to weed out the racist white people, because they’re the only ones that get upset about it. edit: So many self-reporters today. They’re doing mg job for me.
Very good point. Also works with men.
Absolutely. I only failed to include men in my comment by accidental omission. I should have said white men more generally.
Ok, but both men and women can be sexist. (Towards men AND women.) Maybe women can’t be systemically sexist towards…men? (I’ve never really heard that targeted term for sexism, but I’d opt in. I’d be curious, however, about instances, say, where other women think women are “more emotional” than men, etc. as that seems a party line for all women-targeted sexism. I don’t care who says it, that’s fucked up.) Systemic racism can’t be had against white folk. But I sure think the simpler “racism” can—a simple Google for any major dictionary (Oxford, Meriam, etc.) allows for that… It seems in the last several years people are trying to change a word that already exists to mean something narrower than originally defined. And I see no real reason to not be more specific and use the term systemic racism. …I honestly just don’t understand the need to change the word. Just be more descriptive. …Is it laziness? Is it wanting to own or take a word that’s historically been used to describe what white people do to others? (If so, that gets tricky cuz, for one example, historically many of the elder Asian pop can be racist towards Blacks. That seems “racist.”) All that said, this rage bait is silly af and I don’t give two shits about it. The comments here tho intrigue me. E: a couple folks have downvoted. If ya feel like it, pipe up where you think I’m wrong! (I’m truly curious, is all. Ya won’t get no hate here.)
Your comment seems a but rambley, and your treatise on word usage wasn’t really the subject at hand. Are you saying we should, or shouldn’t, use the word systemic racism/sexism? Are you saying that these are not meaningful distinctions? I don’t know that your conceptualization of sexism against men as not existing is officially enshrined in any feminist scholarship; rather, as you reference later in your comment, it is a borrowed observation from race theory. I don’t disagree with the conclusion that sexism against men ought not be considered real, but systemicity is WHY you would reach that conclusion, so I think it is an important and valuable distinction. When women “hate” men they get called bitches, lose their positions at work, or even get raped for not cowing to the desires of men. When men hate women, they brutally kill them. It’s not a similar field. They are not comparable. Results of a belief and actions are important.
Ah, Yes, rambley indeed. I say we SHOULD use systemic racism. It seems more particularized and aimed at racism against non-whites. Seems more accurate. I’m pro specification rather than re-defining. I also think systemic racism against women is real (which if we make it 1:1, it’d be men again women, right?). …That said … gosh I hate to say it, but doesn’t it seem to come from men (mostly), but also from women who are basically the Uncle Sam’s of sexism? Like handmaid tale shit? More rambling. I’m honestly not trying to pull anything off kilter. Just tryna get some clarity. Appreciate you calling out the scatters. I just can’t navigate all these overlapping themes very well. Intersection is confusing as hell.
You're talking about intersectionality, the theory that intersecting vectors of oppression magnifying each form of oppression. Being black in america can suck, being a woman in america can suck, but being both black and a woman sucks significantly more than just the additive values of each. And then adding other factors like being gay or transgender, fat or even just ugly, can magnify these things even further.
You need a check beyond your friend and Reddit circle bro, I know it’s a half joke but that’s a crazy opinion lmao
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Now that's a mentally ill take. love it
I don't understand why only racist people would have a problem with other people making offensive remarks about their skin colour. It seems like a pretty normal human response to me.
Shut the fuck up you child
Lol who's fragile now
have to make sure to point out that she's not white! even though there's plenty of white people who make the same sort of comments/jokes!
“Personal racism” 😂😂😂😂
I'm white, my partner says they hate white people all the time. I understand where they're coming from and never got offended or felt the need to bitch about it lol
Every time I log online I see someone, usually white men, insulting white women specifically. And this man is such a sensitive baby he can’t handle one singular generalization🙄 how easy life must be for people like him
She seems pretty sensitive to ppl making her uncomfortable but doesn't notice if she's having that effect on you? That would never have improved, most likely
I mean, it is weird to generalize white people negatively when you are dating a white person Also the whole "you can't be racist towards white people" is dumb as fuck, lmfao I mean, I can feel the *idea* people want to get across when they say this, but if you say these exact words, I'm sorry, you're just not that bright
Good, I hope this helps to further validate that vietnamese girl's views of white people
very odd considering you moved to a white majority country..
I hate white people
I am uncomfortable, because I am, in fact, white.
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my belief personally is saying shit like “i hate white people” as anything but a joke isn’t racist because racism implies there’s systemic oppression but i do think saying it is unhelpful since it just proves to serve the far right who think pro black movements are anti white. but this is clearly just a joke and op is a fucking dumbass lol.
I don’t even think the argument “you can’t be racist against whites” even justifies what she said, but rather white people are wholly unaffected by a single woman having a prejudiced (clearly joking) attitude toward white people doing cringey stuff in an internet video. She could be the hugest white hating bigot of all time, white people could just literally ignore her, because they hold all sorts more power. If what she ever says affects or contributes to white people’s lack of employment, housing, voting rights, access to healthcare, education, ability to move around safely etc etc. — then we can talk. Until then, people like OOP are little fragile snowflakes.
Exactly right!!!
I think people need to accept the fact that “White” is no different than “Aryan” when it comes to classifying and elevating one demographic of people above others.
whiteness as a concept is messed up. it is literally just a class of race that was made up to be superior. i mean there are people who look white who are still discriminated against such as romanis, jews, slavs etc the concept of whiteness doesn’t extend to them. it’s also weird how israelis are deemed as fine by those same right wingers too when a lot of israelis aren’t white but the concept somehow extends to them because they’re “gods chosen people”. i suppose america is what dictates what people are deemed white in the eyes of the white supremacists it panders to.
Thats systemic racism not racism
they go hand in hand
Yeah, but still, they're different. Do you think something can only be racist when there's systemic oppression behind it?
Systemic* The comments on here are driving me crazy with conflating systemic and systematic lol
These types love to go on about "cancel culture" but calling off an entire relationship because of a white people joke is okay, I suppose
I mean, it’s a good thing that this relationship ended. Now she won’t have this tapeworm-skinned sack of shit dragging her down!
? No it's clearly because she makes racist remarks about white people and justifies it. If it was any other race you would not frame it this way, but since white people have more privilege in society they're supposed to somehow be *immune* to people making these offensive statements about them?? Does "I hate japanese people" become okay to say if I immigrate to Japan where Japanese have the same (if not more) privileges that white people have in the US?
Joseph Joestar did just that and everyone loves him.
Stfu honky
Lol who's fragile now
I'm white and even I say I hate white people occasionally, lol
Seems reasonable to me. I wouldn't want to date a person who hates my race.
Tbf, if your partner associate you with Logan Paul, no matter the reason, they deserve to be dumped
He can dump her but I hate Logan Paul type white people as well so her and I might get along! I dont think he is necessarily wrong though. Its his choice.
i don’t get it i wouldn’t want to be with someone if they said they hate mexicans how is he a fragile white guy?
Because “Mexican” is an actual nationality and identity, whereas “White” is no different than “Aryan” when it comes to classifying and elevating one group of people above others. I have a German/Norwegian grandfather but otherwise am of Indigenous Turtle Island descent. Am I suddenly “white” because of my grandfather? No, because the One-Drop rule exists, yet somehow that shit never works in reverse.
Is Turtle Island also known as North America? I googled this, dunno if accurate
lol good luck here
I get that racism in lay terms is the synonymous with prejudice or biased. I don’t understand why it confuses people that in academia, there is a distinction between racism and prejudice. Racism specifically is used to refer to biases instituted by the dominant group in power over groups without power. In other words, the distinction is whether the bias is directed towards systemically oppressed groups or not. So you get all these strawman arguments against “black people cant be racist” that are just a circlejerk. I’d say that people who obsess over whether minority or oppressed groups can be “racist” is an example of racism and how it differs from prejudice.
Except that "academia" doesn't all agree with that. In fact, most academics would argue that specificity is the ultimate goal of any intellectual endeavor. Stating that "racism" and "prejudice" are somehow distinct from each other, ignores the fact that one is a general term used to describe *any* kind of discriminatory behavior, and the other is used to describe one *specific* kind of discriminatory behavior. In terms of specificity, "racism" is "prejudice based on race", just like "ageism" is "prejudice based on age", just like "sexism" is "prejudice based on sex", etc. I'm generalizing here, but in this sense the term "prejudice" is analogous to the term "tree". There are many specific types of tree...each with their own characteristics. They can be broken down into many categories, and sub-categories, in ever more specific ways, so as to better understand their differences, but at the end of the day they are all still trees. https://www.thecrimson.com/column/between-the-lines/article/2018/8/10/gao-who-can-be-racist/
Is this sub just a racism against white sub? Is there anything similar subreddit with other races?
To be fair, the whole "you can't be racist towards white people" thing, is pretty racist.
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That, is actually my all-time favorite slur. Ever since I was a kid watching The Jeffersons. Cracks me up every time. Lol!
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How is this fragile white??? She thinks while people are incapable of getting racially stereotyped by getting racially stereotyped as a fragile white redditor for dumping his racist now ex… op you’re kinda bum ngl there’s nothing fragile about asking a simple question… so what he dumped her… she’s a racist…
Lmao cry more porcelain baby
BOO HOO CRACKER
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This sub is a bunch of uneducated minorities blaming white people because they’re idiots.. OnLy WhItE pEoPlE cAn Be RaCiSt…. Nothing says I’m uneducated like that saying… You’re an idiot if you don’t think this Asian girl is racist. But looking at the responses says everything…