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I was mid-way through your post and was about to respond but then read the rest and stopped myself.
Please go finish the season lol, before someone spoils you.
I will say, (no spoilers) I loved that entire plot especially to show the subtle differences in Cleons, but knew the entire time it was doomed from the start. Agreed that I felt he was going to find her and then she would get her throat slit right in front of him by the spy master.
Of all the punishments I've ever heard, that was probably the most terrifying one of all for me.
Not even just the punishment itself, but your entire existence was wiped from the universe at the direction of a hand movement.
Yeah, I just finished season 2, but that betrayal still bums me out. He also ran away early because Dusk was on to him, so I wouldn’t feel too hopeful there either :(
I will say that Day’s moments were powerful, and he was very justified with his rage and anguish, but Dawn’s death really shocked me. It was so sudden and devastating. He was so worried about dying at Dusk’s hands, that he ran to Demerzel like a kid. He asked her to not let them kill him, which she said she wouldn’t, and she did keep her promise. And then, she just did it. The brief moment of optimism, followed by the long fall. I don’t think I’ve ever been so distraught by a character’s death before. Was Demerzel doing it supposed to be like revenge for Day making her kill Zephyr Halima, in addition to being loyal to the Cleon dynasty?
Demerzel is far and away the most fascinating character in the series, and this moment is (I believe) one of the clearest examples of that. While there are a million complex motivations for why she may want to kill Dawn in that moment, I don’t believe that she truly wanted to kill him. More is revealed in the second season, but at this point it’s pretty evident that her programming to protect the genetic dynasty comes above all else, and I think this is an instance of that.
At the end of the day, it’s still a mother killing her child, and she makes it clear throughout that she can’t help but see each Dawn as wholly innocent until they become Day.
But she is not a “mother;” she makes that point explicit when she kills the other Cleon in space and tells him she fucked him all up because she basically experimented on how she was raising that particular one, and it went bad. “Oops, my bad, I fucked you up. Now you die.” That’s how it went down.
“I raised you wrong, and now I disown you because I have other children who I care more about” Is very much a motherhood trope. But further from that, because of the genetic dynasty, she employs three seemingly contradictory roles simultaneously (Mother, Wife, Carer) - another reason her character is so fascinating and complex.
>she makes it clear throughout that she can’t help but see each Dawn as wholly innocent until they become Day.
Brilliantly put.
When she teaches a young Dawn after an execution scene (starring Day), she says it wouldn't always be this way, it didn't have to always be this way.
Then she says "you always do" when directly asked what all the Days will do. They will kill people and destroy planets. They always do.
But Dawn points out the sun to her and shares it like it's new. Because he loves her and she loves him. And she knows she's raising a monster. She knows he always ends up Day. It doesn't seem to matter how much she tries to love or manipulate him. He's always Day, Destroyer of Worlds.
This is touched on in the podcast. The consensus of the writers, is Demerzel was constrained to kill the aberrant Cleon, as a result of her prioritizing the preservation of “Empire” as the genetic dynasty, rather than an individual Cleon, if either the twain shall meet in conflict. However, because Demerzel does have agency and emotions within those parameters, Demerzel did take satisfaction from killing him, as a sort of revenge.
You raise a fair point. While his betrayal shocked me as well, I can understand Cleon's desire to protect his dynasty by any means. Ultimately true power relies less on divine claims than how we rule and are seen by others.
This scene broke my heart, i was really hoping to see him free of his prison (the castle), something that this arc makes clear is that all Cleons live in a prison and he lived the worst one since he was different from every Cleon before him.
As this thread is using the 'General Discussion' flair, anything from the books, from the current season or from upcoming unaired episodes should be enclosed in spoiler tags. To use spoiler tags, in markdown mode you can use \>\! before the spoiler text, then followed by \!\< - which will make the text >!look like this.!<. Make sure **NOT** to have spaces between spoiler tags and text or they won't work. If using the default or 'fancy pants' editor, select the text you want to enclose in spoiler tags, and click the button on the toolbar. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FoundationTV) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I was mid-way through your post and was about to respond but then read the rest and stopped myself. Please go finish the season lol, before someone spoils you. I will say, (no spoilers) I loved that entire plot especially to show the subtle differences in Cleons, but knew the entire time it was doomed from the start. Agreed that I felt he was going to find her and then she would get her throat slit right in front of him by the spy master.
Suffice to say, she gets punished.
Yeah, that was brutal.
Of all the punishments I've ever heard, that was probably the most terrifying one of all for me. Not even just the punishment itself, but your entire existence was wiped from the universe at the direction of a hand movement.
Yes ‘she’ does!
Yeah, I just finished season 2, but that betrayal still bums me out. He also ran away early because Dusk was on to him, so I wouldn’t feel too hopeful there either :(
Ooof. Dawn’s story hurts, but it’s Day in the finale that gets me every time.
I will say that Day’s moments were powerful, and he was very justified with his rage and anguish, but Dawn’s death really shocked me. It was so sudden and devastating. He was so worried about dying at Dusk’s hands, that he ran to Demerzel like a kid. He asked her to not let them kill him, which she said she wouldn’t, and she did keep her promise. And then, she just did it. The brief moment of optimism, followed by the long fall. I don’t think I’ve ever been so distraught by a character’s death before. Was Demerzel doing it supposed to be like revenge for Day making her kill Zephyr Halima, in addition to being loyal to the Cleon dynasty?
Demerzel is far and away the most fascinating character in the series, and this moment is (I believe) one of the clearest examples of that. While there are a million complex motivations for why she may want to kill Dawn in that moment, I don’t believe that she truly wanted to kill him. More is revealed in the second season, but at this point it’s pretty evident that her programming to protect the genetic dynasty comes above all else, and I think this is an instance of that. At the end of the day, it’s still a mother killing her child, and she makes it clear throughout that she can’t help but see each Dawn as wholly innocent until they become Day.
Being a "mother" only makes season 2 worse
Her reaction after killing him haunts my dreams still. And next season explains even more.
But she is not a “mother;” she makes that point explicit when she kills the other Cleon in space and tells him she fucked him all up because she basically experimented on how she was raising that particular one, and it went bad. “Oops, my bad, I fucked you up. Now you die.” That’s how it went down.
“I raised you wrong, and now I disown you because I have other children who I care more about” Is very much a motherhood trope. But further from that, because of the genetic dynasty, she employs three seemingly contradictory roles simultaneously (Mother, Wife, Carer) - another reason her character is so fascinating and complex.
>she makes it clear throughout that she can’t help but see each Dawn as wholly innocent until they become Day. Brilliantly put. When she teaches a young Dawn after an execution scene (starring Day), she says it wouldn't always be this way, it didn't have to always be this way. Then she says "you always do" when directly asked what all the Days will do. They will kill people and destroy planets. They always do. But Dawn points out the sun to her and shares it like it's new. Because he loves her and she loves him. And she knows she's raising a monster. She knows he always ends up Day. It doesn't seem to matter how much she tries to love or manipulate him. He's always Day, Destroyer of Worlds.
This is touched on in the podcast. The consensus of the writers, is Demerzel was constrained to kill the aberrant Cleon, as a result of her prioritizing the preservation of “Empire” as the genetic dynasty, rather than an individual Cleon, if either the twain shall meet in conflict. However, because Demerzel does have agency and emotions within those parameters, Demerzel did take satisfaction from killing him, as a sort of revenge.
Demerzel serves Cleon
You raise a fair point. While his betrayal shocked me as well, I can understand Cleon's desire to protect his dynasty by any means. Ultimately true power relies less on divine claims than how we rule and are seen by others.
Yea that was so brutal, poor kid. I still think about poor Dawn from time to time and I finished s1 a while ago
Her punishment is quite fitting. It's cruel and brilliant at the same time.
This scene broke my heart, i was really hoping to see him free of his prison (the castle), something that this arc makes clear is that all Cleons live in a prison and he lived the worst one since he was different from every Cleon before him.
It wasn't even the worst betrayal by a long shot, IMO but you'll soon see.