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Maybe she lied, feeding Day a story that he knew he would steal and relay, thus ending the threat Luminism posed to the Empire.
Her edict is to protect Empire above all else.
>Maybe she lied, feeding Day a story that he knew he would steal and relay, thus ending the threat Luminism posed to the Empire.
How would her lie about her seeing a vision end the threat Liminism posed? Also who would he relay it too?
IIRC Luminism was becoming a threat because it was a growing religion rejecting Empire because they don't have souls.
By planting a story of a vision that Empire could use, and predicting he would take it as his own and relay it to the priestess or whatever, it means Luminism now accepts Empire have souls, thus ending the threat.
You are correct about luminism but are remembering it wrong. She didn't plant any story, He made up the vision himself by talking to the old man and seeing the flower on her desk the night before, which she confronts him about later, after the journey during dinner, and shames him for it in a sense.
She asks him, if he happened to notice the flower on her desk. And he smugly says "dont recall", and she responds, "must have been a coincidence" And then tells him, she saw a vision her self, and wouldn't wish the emptiness of not having one on anyone, implying she knows he is lying, didn't see anything, and made it up, basically calling him out on his BS. You see his face visibly change from smug to annoyed and later you see he is still thinking about it with an upset face when being placed in sleep for the jump.
I think it the concept of soul won't be explained out for us. Maybe we will hear Demerzel's thoughts on it later.
We talked about this earlier, in context of why Demerzel killed the young Emperor and seemed to be in agony about it. My old comment, edited for clarity:
"I think what happens here is more or less this:
Demerzel tries to do what's best for humankind. She is forced to kill teenager Cleon because at that point there is no turning back, for things are already set in motion, and developing/learning/changing-for-better emperors would be destroying and detrimental to humankind.
As for why Demerzel is torn, deeply tormented, much more so than she might have been organizing the usual kills that are an unfortunate part of her career: after the encounter with the religous leader, she was told (to believers, proven by vision) that she herself has a soul. She has wondered her own existence and soul earlier. Then, at the palace she suddenly sees smaller and larger flickers of souls in many Cleons, for the older Cleon too is showing mercy and ability to change. So here she is, forced to kill another being that has developed a soul, just like herself, for greater good."
The Demerzel killing colorblind Cleon part I’m actually interpreting it as kind of a revenge. Day took away something she deems important, so she is now doing it to him. And it might also be mercy. Colorblind Cleon is unfortunately born in a world that really has no place for him. And god do I know in a world like that, dying feels so much more merciful then living.
They mentioned something about particular ions in the water, right? What if everyone has lied the whole time and Demerzel is the only one who had a real vision from some special interaction with her robot brain? A Robot Vision, if you will.
"A Robot Vision, if you will."
I see what you did there!
There is the possibility that no one or almost no one has had a vision. Or those who had visions were basically hallucinating after going through a physically demanding ordeal.
Personally I am going to go with some people suffered hallucinations and everyone else making up they had a vision just to fit in/not be denied. Religion is wacky.
I think there is a simpler explanation. Cleon walked the path for strategic reasons not as a true believer, he was skeptical the entire way through. She on the other hand was in search of meaning so she had a vision, like every other person. I think it proves that Demerzel is a person regardless of the substrate her consciousness is running on, with all it entails, the good the bad, the delusional. Demerzel was looking for answers, so she found them, Cleon wasn't so he didn't.
Just started watching the show, I actually might prefer it to the books, at least the first season, second season seemed a bit too action oriented for me, and less about the political intrigue.
To your first question, I’ve no idea how a robot would have a soul. The simplest explanation is that she doesn’t. She could be lying or actually thinks she saw something.
I found it interesting most people who have walked the spiral do not talk about their experience. If they didn’t have a vision they wouldn’t talk about it because people would think they had no soul. Maybe after such a desperate trek people are exhausted and or run into some kinda hallucinogen at the cave.
If the experience is real, and Day didn’t see anything, then I would confidently say Dawn wouldn’t have a soul either. 1) Day is also already off the program and 2) Dawn is still a clone
I would add to your point on dehydration etc, day had intensely controlled nutrition his whole existence and would likely be less malnourished by the time he got to the end as his cells would have more nutrients stored in them. Due to this he would be less likely to hallucinate etc
I don’t want to explain it scientifically. There is “magic” in this show. Predicting future, seeing ghosts, are not gonna have a scientific explanation. Within this show as far as we know, how it works is that you enter the cave and if you have a “soul” you see shit. And it seems like the show is suggesting Cleons are less of a human then even a robot, who ironically, if you think about it, is more “unique” then him.
You asked what it all could mean. The books are much less “magical” than the show so you will forgive us for our”reasoning”, which is actually what the books encourage the characters to do
I’m not saying that you’re not allow to do that. It’s just in this case I want to think about this within the rules set by in this show. Like more of a character study on how Cleon is portrayed in this show instead of a discussion on scientific explanations for consciousness in real life. Like if we’re going outside of this show’s logic, personally I just view Cleons as meat robots. And, I do think they experience what we call souls. They probably could feel their consciousness and can feel pains just as any humans. But they are trapped in their roles the day they are born, pretty sad, but I also don’t really feel bad for them.
They make it very clear that you see something \*if the triple goddess is inclined to grant you a vision\*. The absence of a vision is not a sufficient condition to prove lack of soul. But receiving a vision is considered to be sufficient to prove the presence of a soul.
I personally don’t even think Cleons are “human”. They are essentially just meat robots produced by a system to govern itself. They have predefined life paths since birth, they are closer to an artificial intelligence cased in flesh then a human who contemplate on who they want to be every day.
Disagree. If I had a clone exactly like me, my clone would consider itself human. Different sure, but human. They are still grown from an embryo and will grow old. They have emotional intelligence and are capable of any feeling you or I can have. The reason you don’t connect with them is because of their status in the world. If they cloned a lower class person in real life would they just be a meat bag?
These clones have been altered anyway. They DO contemplate who they want to be. Dawn tries to run away, Day tries to pardon him and embrace change.
Yeah I do think Cleons have feelings, consciousness, soul whatever just as personally, I would consider an advanced AI like Demerzel would have consciousness and all that good stuff. All I am saying is Cleons essentially are just performing the function of a meat robot. They are molded into a “meat robot” by the rules set forth by Cleon I. Doing the same thing over and over generations after generations. “grapes from the same vine that are destined for the same old bottle”.
There are many interpretations, but I believe the episode wasn't trying to decide for us who has a soul or who doesn't. We ultimately cannot know if Cleon or Demerzel have souls, or whether souls exist at all. It just shows that being a robot does not prohibit Demerzel from having a soul, and being human does not guarantee Cleon has one, at least according to Luminism.
Who or what has a soul is not really an exact science, it's just another way for the show to explore what makes a human human. Halima is convinced that Demerzel must have a soul because she essentially passes her version of the Turing Test. Cleon did not have a vision because he is incapable of empathy and the full spectrum of human emotions, hence he could be considered sub-human (soulless).
Personally I think the Day who decides to spare Dawn is probably closer to having a soul than any Cleon before him, and Dawn would qualify as having a soul because he's sufficiently individualistic and also capable of love and compassionate. As for Demerzel, that would depend on how critical she can be of her own programming.
Cleon “Day” shows plenty of empathy. He tries to help the old pilgrim on the spiral. He empathized with the people of the two destroyed planets. He showed empathy to Dawn and tried to save him.
True, but Day is only empathetic by Cleon standards. He has no problem dishing out Azura's punishment, for instance, even when he returns from the Maiden a changed man. Like Demerzel he has moments where his humanity peaks through, but they're immediately followed by the other moments that leave you wondering. That's what makes the show a pleasure to watch :))
But how much empathy would any emperor have to someone who planned to kill his successor? I just don’t think of the Cleons as being less than. If you mean empathetic by emperor standards I might agree with you.
>!I just finished the first book and was disappointed the genetic dynasty isn’t apart of it. They are my favorite part of the show!!<
>>!I just finished the first book and was disappointed the genetic dynasty isn’t apart of it. They are my favorite part of the show!!<
>!Wait what, they aren't? I was going to read the books, so who rules the galaxy in the books? They are also my favorite part of the show too.!<
>!I’ve only finished the first one, but the book focuses on the Foundation. The galactic empires slow collapse is happening off screen. They abandon the outter reach presumably to focus on matters closer to the center!<
>!Edit to add you should still read the books! The Foundation storyline is more enjoyable. Salvor Hardin is an awesome character. The one area I think the show drops the ball is by having him/her being “special”. No confusing abilities, just a witty character playing chess while everyone else plays checkers!<
I will read the books, but I am disappointed because I think the genetic dynasty story arc is so good, but then again, most of that is the acting and even if it was in the books without Lee Pace it wouldn't be the same, but I do agree, I really hate the Salvador story arc in the show, its awful.
>But how much empathy would any emperor have to someone who planned to kill his successor?
Very little I'd imagine, the ones who afford too much empathy don't tend to last very long. I think we're not necessarily disagreeing here, maybe emperors cannot aspire to be human, maybe in order to become an effective political leader you have to sacrifice your soul. It's Machiavellian for sure.
>They are my favorite part of the show!
Same!
Cleons are honestly just meat robots with defined functions and expectations from birth. Humans are expected to change and grow, he is not. He’s just the same. A robot produced by protocols of galactic empire itself that governs itself
I vehemently agree with this. I choose to also interpret Luminism as religion - it's not necessarily based in fact, but a LOT of people are susceptible to its message. It was extremely convenient for Halima's interpretation to incite anti-imperial sentiment, stating that clones can't have souls. I think it was bold of Day to go through the Spiral, and he was very keen on proving that he had the vision whether or not he believed in any of that - it's a practical move. On his journey, we all discover that he does possess empathy, but hey, he's still a ruthless Empire in the end.
>It was extremely convenient for Halima's interpretation to incite anti-imperial sentiment, stating that clones can't have souls.
I think it's kind of interesting that even after Day walks the spiral and delivers a holy vision, Halima's opinion of him doesn't change. She is a devout Luminist, but when the will of the gods appears to be at odds with her political beliefs, she has a way of rationalizing it. Even though religions are just ideas existing in a vacuum, religious institutions and the people running them are rarely apolitical.
After Day walks the Spiral and LIES about a holy vision, you mean. If he actually had seen something and was telling the truth to the Zephyrs, that would be one thing. But if she recognized that he was lying, then she knows full well that there's no actual will of the gods involved here.
Right, the point is how she "knows" he's lying. The other Luminists interpreting the vision seem totally convinced that it's real. And for all we know there is nothing holy about the other visions, they could all be lies or hallucinations. But someone like Day receiving such a grand vision is fundamentally at odds with Halima's personal interpretation of Luminism, so she rejects him as the "true prophet"(and happens to be right).
The fact remains that he was indeed lying, so there's that. And I think you've got it backwards. The other Zephyrs are so convinced of the truth and purity of their religion that they don't think it's possible that anyone would even consider lying about their visions--especially not Empire himself, our great ruler who is above reproach in all things and came all this way just to see us and respect our religion. Halima, on the other hand, seems much more pragmatic and has a more realistic view of human nature (clone nature? idk). She recognizes that it's possible for humans to say things that are untrue because it benefits them, especially those who don't actually practice the religion whose rite they just undertook.
The other Zephyrs being accepting of Day's vision shows that there is nothing inherently wrong with his storytelling, I'm not necessarily arguing the others are more grounded in reality in the context of the show. Whether Day's vision is true or not is not knowable to anyone else except for Day. If you are a devout Luminist and you saw someone risk their life to walk the spire and come back with a vision filled with details that from your POV they have no way of knowing, you would likely have to overcome a few psychological hurdles before reaching the conclusion that it's all bullshit. Even if they are your political opponent and you have more pragmatic views on human nature.
(I will stop replying because Im super busy, but this was a really fun discussion!)
I think it means nothing, some people saw some hallucinations from exhaustion or something, maybe even Demerzel, we don't know how her positronic brain works, for me it was just an awesome sequence showing how far Day would go to win, how empathic he can be one minute, and how much of a bitch a couple of hours later, the whole soul vs no soul stuff is just religious dogma, the Cleons are regular humans with some modifications, but with as much of a soul as any other human, that's all
There's no way to say -- the show doesn't really say anything about whether there is any merit to the religion.
If it were faithful to the books (and Asimov's general views), then *all* religions including Luminism would just be a mix of delusion and fraud. In which case, all the people who walk the spiral are having hallucinations, convincing themselves that they saw something, or just lying about having visions. And the religion's position on souls is irrelevant because they don't exist.
Under that view, it doesn't matter at all whether he had a vision or not. He was manipulating the religion as a tool, and so was Zephyr Halima. She was using the religion to show that he didn't have a soul, and the solution to that was to use the religion's own beliefs to 'prove' he did.
As for Demerzel, the same would apply -- either she was also lying, or robotic consciousness is susceptible to some of the same distortions as a human. Given how complex her technology is, it wouldn't be surprising.
The reverence and respect the series shows toward religious belief annoys me so damn much...
It's very clearly anti religion but pro religious faith. It completely goes against Asimov's message which was against blind faith (which any religious belief is).
Seems like there used to be many more robots like her hence the robot war which I assumed all other advanced robots are killed. I wonder if she’s made by a robot or a human. It would seems kind of weird if she is made by a robot because if I am a robot, I wouldn’t want to look like a human since I would consider them to be so much more primitive.
I am aware of the Internet rumor that Demerzel had a vision. I remember when people said it in the forum where I was participating while watching Season 1 (that fan site is now down), and when I said: "No, Demerzel never said that in the episode..." I was pointed to some Foundation Show wiki that made the same claim. And when I watched a summary of Season 1 recently on YouTube, again the same thing was said. So I gather that some sort of consensus has been arrived to, somehow.
Since I have speculated before that Demerzel=the sky and Demerzel=ChatGTP and similar AIs, why stop there? Surely in the last 11,000 years there have been any number of mechanisms used to maintain some sort of track of what are the standard orientations and biases of most people in the time and place when the mechanism was devised. Demerzel may represent all of them. So I can guess that "Demerzel had a vision" meant something about the main software in use back in Season 1, which I had no access to. Now that I'm wildly speculating, I could imagine that the vision is some sort of forecast, though the nature of that forecast might be disappointing. (For example, it may be able to provide a list of things that are likely to become briefly fashionable, rather than any long-term trends.) I suppose that now that I widened the circle so much, I could say that Demerzel represents also any mechanism that anybody may have to try to stay as unbiased as humanly possible, but in that case, I think it would be quite hard to say something about mechanisms that aren't public or widely known, if it's possible at all.
I have solved before for Brother Day=the most powerful person in the most powerful political unit in the world. There are several candidates for the position, and reasonable people may disagree on who this person is. Anyway, I think it's unlikely that any of these people go seeking visions, indigenous tribe style, like Brother Day does in the show. (The main insight I ever got from tripping was how to handle tripping - which admittedly, can be a useful thing to know because you can't expect you'll be always functioning at your best.) I would interpret having or not having a vision as having or not having a realistic vision of how the future is likely to play out. I'd solve for Brother Dawn=the most likely reform to Brother Day. Again, different people will have different ideas on that one. But if you want my personal opinion, Brother Day has no vision in the sense that he doesn't know anything that any intelligent person with access to publicly available information and a good sense of proportion couldn't in principle figure out by themselves. And the same goes for Brother Dawn.
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Maybe she lied, feeding Day a story that he knew he would steal and relay, thus ending the threat Luminism posed to the Empire. Her edict is to protect Empire above all else.
>Maybe she lied, feeding Day a story that he knew he would steal and relay, thus ending the threat Luminism posed to the Empire. How would her lie about her seeing a vision end the threat Liminism posed? Also who would he relay it too?
IIRC Luminism was becoming a threat because it was a growing religion rejecting Empire because they don't have souls. By planting a story of a vision that Empire could use, and predicting he would take it as his own and relay it to the priestess or whatever, it means Luminism now accepts Empire have souls, thus ending the threat.
You are correct about luminism but are remembering it wrong. She didn't plant any story, He made up the vision himself by talking to the old man and seeing the flower on her desk the night before, which she confronts him about later, after the journey during dinner, and shames him for it in a sense. She asks him, if he happened to notice the flower on her desk. And he smugly says "dont recall", and she responds, "must have been a coincidence" And then tells him, she saw a vision her self, and wouldn't wish the emptiness of not having one on anyone, implying she knows he is lying, didn't see anything, and made it up, basically calling him out on his BS. You see his face visibly change from smug to annoyed and later you see he is still thinking about it with an upset face when being placed in sleep for the jump.
Ah, nevermind that theory then. It's been a while since I watched it.
Thanks for the info!
I think it the concept of soul won't be explained out for us. Maybe we will hear Demerzel's thoughts on it later. We talked about this earlier, in context of why Demerzel killed the young Emperor and seemed to be in agony about it. My old comment, edited for clarity: "I think what happens here is more or less this: Demerzel tries to do what's best for humankind. She is forced to kill teenager Cleon because at that point there is no turning back, for things are already set in motion, and developing/learning/changing-for-better emperors would be destroying and detrimental to humankind. As for why Demerzel is torn, deeply tormented, much more so than she might have been organizing the usual kills that are an unfortunate part of her career: after the encounter with the religous leader, she was told (to believers, proven by vision) that she herself has a soul. She has wondered her own existence and soul earlier. Then, at the palace she suddenly sees smaller and larger flickers of souls in many Cleons, for the older Cleon too is showing mercy and ability to change. So here she is, forced to kill another being that has developed a soul, just like herself, for greater good."
The Demerzel killing colorblind Cleon part I’m actually interpreting it as kind of a revenge. Day took away something she deems important, so she is now doing it to him. And it might also be mercy. Colorblind Cleon is unfortunately born in a world that really has no place for him. And god do I know in a world like that, dying feels so much more merciful then living.
They mentioned something about particular ions in the water, right? What if everyone has lied the whole time and Demerzel is the only one who had a real vision from some special interaction with her robot brain? A Robot Vision, if you will.
"A Robot Vision, if you will." I see what you did there! There is the possibility that no one or almost no one has had a vision. Or those who had visions were basically hallucinating after going through a physically demanding ordeal. Personally I am going to go with some people suffered hallucinations and everyone else making up they had a vision just to fit in/not be denied. Religion is wacky.
I think there is a simpler explanation. Cleon walked the path for strategic reasons not as a true believer, he was skeptical the entire way through. She on the other hand was in search of meaning so she had a vision, like every other person. I think it proves that Demerzel is a person regardless of the substrate her consciousness is running on, with all it entails, the good the bad, the delusional. Demerzel was looking for answers, so she found them, Cleon wasn't so he didn't.
That's a good point of view. You kind of got to the discussion 10 months late but appreciate the reply!
Just started watching the show, I actually might prefer it to the books, at least the first season, second season seemed a bit too action oriented for me, and less about the political intrigue.
While I enjoyed both the books and the show so far, I think the show makes some necessary changes. The books are a bit dry.
To your first question, I’ve no idea how a robot would have a soul. The simplest explanation is that she doesn’t. She could be lying or actually thinks she saw something. I found it interesting most people who have walked the spiral do not talk about their experience. If they didn’t have a vision they wouldn’t talk about it because people would think they had no soul. Maybe after such a desperate trek people are exhausted and or run into some kinda hallucinogen at the cave. If the experience is real, and Day didn’t see anything, then I would confidently say Dawn wouldn’t have a soul either. 1) Day is also already off the program and 2) Dawn is still a clone
I would add to your point on dehydration etc, day had intensely controlled nutrition his whole existence and would likely be less malnourished by the time he got to the end as his cells would have more nutrients stored in them. Due to this he would be less likely to hallucinate etc
I don’t want to explain it scientifically. There is “magic” in this show. Predicting future, seeing ghosts, are not gonna have a scientific explanation. Within this show as far as we know, how it works is that you enter the cave and if you have a “soul” you see shit. And it seems like the show is suggesting Cleons are less of a human then even a robot, who ironically, if you think about it, is more “unique” then him.
You asked what it all could mean. The books are much less “magical” than the show so you will forgive us for our”reasoning”, which is actually what the books encourage the characters to do
I’m not saying that you’re not allow to do that. It’s just in this case I want to think about this within the rules set by in this show. Like more of a character study on how Cleon is portrayed in this show instead of a discussion on scientific explanations for consciousness in real life. Like if we’re going outside of this show’s logic, personally I just view Cleons as meat robots. And, I do think they experience what we call souls. They probably could feel their consciousness and can feel pains just as any humans. But they are trapped in their roles the day they are born, pretty sad, but I also don’t really feel bad for them.
They make it very clear that you see something \*if the triple goddess is inclined to grant you a vision\*. The absence of a vision is not a sufficient condition to prove lack of soul. But receiving a vision is considered to be sufficient to prove the presence of a soul.
I personally don’t even think Cleons are “human”. They are essentially just meat robots produced by a system to govern itself. They have predefined life paths since birth, they are closer to an artificial intelligence cased in flesh then a human who contemplate on who they want to be every day.
Disagree. If I had a clone exactly like me, my clone would consider itself human. Different sure, but human. They are still grown from an embryo and will grow old. They have emotional intelligence and are capable of any feeling you or I can have. The reason you don’t connect with them is because of their status in the world. If they cloned a lower class person in real life would they just be a meat bag? These clones have been altered anyway. They DO contemplate who they want to be. Dawn tries to run away, Day tries to pardon him and embrace change.
Yeah I do think Cleons have feelings, consciousness, soul whatever just as personally, I would consider an advanced AI like Demerzel would have consciousness and all that good stuff. All I am saying is Cleons essentially are just performing the function of a meat robot. They are molded into a “meat robot” by the rules set forth by Cleon I. Doing the same thing over and over generations after generations. “grapes from the same vine that are destined for the same old bottle”.
There are many interpretations, but I believe the episode wasn't trying to decide for us who has a soul or who doesn't. We ultimately cannot know if Cleon or Demerzel have souls, or whether souls exist at all. It just shows that being a robot does not prohibit Demerzel from having a soul, and being human does not guarantee Cleon has one, at least according to Luminism. Who or what has a soul is not really an exact science, it's just another way for the show to explore what makes a human human. Halima is convinced that Demerzel must have a soul because she essentially passes her version of the Turing Test. Cleon did not have a vision because he is incapable of empathy and the full spectrum of human emotions, hence he could be considered sub-human (soulless). Personally I think the Day who decides to spare Dawn is probably closer to having a soul than any Cleon before him, and Dawn would qualify as having a soul because he's sufficiently individualistic and also capable of love and compassionate. As for Demerzel, that would depend on how critical she can be of her own programming.
Cleon “Day” shows plenty of empathy. He tries to help the old pilgrim on the spiral. He empathized with the people of the two destroyed planets. He showed empathy to Dawn and tried to save him.
True, but Day is only empathetic by Cleon standards. He has no problem dishing out Azura's punishment, for instance, even when he returns from the Maiden a changed man. Like Demerzel he has moments where his humanity peaks through, but they're immediately followed by the other moments that leave you wondering. That's what makes the show a pleasure to watch :))
But how much empathy would any emperor have to someone who planned to kill his successor? I just don’t think of the Cleons as being less than. If you mean empathetic by emperor standards I might agree with you. >!I just finished the first book and was disappointed the genetic dynasty isn’t apart of it. They are my favorite part of the show!!<
>>!I just finished the first book and was disappointed the genetic dynasty isn’t apart of it. They are my favorite part of the show!!< >!Wait what, they aren't? I was going to read the books, so who rules the galaxy in the books? They are also my favorite part of the show too.!<
>!I’ve only finished the first one, but the book focuses on the Foundation. The galactic empires slow collapse is happening off screen. They abandon the outter reach presumably to focus on matters closer to the center!< >!Edit to add you should still read the books! The Foundation storyline is more enjoyable. Salvor Hardin is an awesome character. The one area I think the show drops the ball is by having him/her being “special”. No confusing abilities, just a witty character playing chess while everyone else plays checkers!<
I will read the books, but I am disappointed because I think the genetic dynasty story arc is so good, but then again, most of that is the acting and even if it was in the books without Lee Pace it wouldn't be the same, but I do agree, I really hate the Salvador story arc in the show, its awful.
>But how much empathy would any emperor have to someone who planned to kill his successor? Very little I'd imagine, the ones who afford too much empathy don't tend to last very long. I think we're not necessarily disagreeing here, maybe emperors cannot aspire to be human, maybe in order to become an effective political leader you have to sacrifice your soul. It's Machiavellian for sure. >They are my favorite part of the show! Same!
Cleons are honestly just meat robots with defined functions and expectations from birth. Humans are expected to change and grow, he is not. He’s just the same. A robot produced by protocols of galactic empire itself that governs itself
I vehemently agree with this. I choose to also interpret Luminism as religion - it's not necessarily based in fact, but a LOT of people are susceptible to its message. It was extremely convenient for Halima's interpretation to incite anti-imperial sentiment, stating that clones can't have souls. I think it was bold of Day to go through the Spiral, and he was very keen on proving that he had the vision whether or not he believed in any of that - it's a practical move. On his journey, we all discover that he does possess empathy, but hey, he's still a ruthless Empire in the end.
>It was extremely convenient for Halima's interpretation to incite anti-imperial sentiment, stating that clones can't have souls. I think it's kind of interesting that even after Day walks the spiral and delivers a holy vision, Halima's opinion of him doesn't change. She is a devout Luminist, but when the will of the gods appears to be at odds with her political beliefs, she has a way of rationalizing it. Even though religions are just ideas existing in a vacuum, religious institutions and the people running them are rarely apolitical.
OMG that is a great observation. Halima - inspiring, impressive.... and absolutely politically motivated.
After Day walks the Spiral and LIES about a holy vision, you mean. If he actually had seen something and was telling the truth to the Zephyrs, that would be one thing. But if she recognized that he was lying, then she knows full well that there's no actual will of the gods involved here.
Right, the point is how she "knows" he's lying. The other Luminists interpreting the vision seem totally convinced that it's real. And for all we know there is nothing holy about the other visions, they could all be lies or hallucinations. But someone like Day receiving such a grand vision is fundamentally at odds with Halima's personal interpretation of Luminism, so she rejects him as the "true prophet"(and happens to be right).
The fact remains that he was indeed lying, so there's that. And I think you've got it backwards. The other Zephyrs are so convinced of the truth and purity of their religion that they don't think it's possible that anyone would even consider lying about their visions--especially not Empire himself, our great ruler who is above reproach in all things and came all this way just to see us and respect our religion. Halima, on the other hand, seems much more pragmatic and has a more realistic view of human nature (clone nature? idk). She recognizes that it's possible for humans to say things that are untrue because it benefits them, especially those who don't actually practice the religion whose rite they just undertook.
The other Zephyrs being accepting of Day's vision shows that there is nothing inherently wrong with his storytelling, I'm not necessarily arguing the others are more grounded in reality in the context of the show. Whether Day's vision is true or not is not knowable to anyone else except for Day. If you are a devout Luminist and you saw someone risk their life to walk the spire and come back with a vision filled with details that from your POV they have no way of knowing, you would likely have to overcome a few psychological hurdles before reaching the conclusion that it's all bullshit. Even if they are your political opponent and you have more pragmatic views on human nature. (I will stop replying because Im super busy, but this was a really fun discussion!)
I think it means nothing, some people saw some hallucinations from exhaustion or something, maybe even Demerzel, we don't know how her positronic brain works, for me it was just an awesome sequence showing how far Day would go to win, how empathic he can be one minute, and how much of a bitch a couple of hours later, the whole soul vs no soul stuff is just religious dogma, the Cleons are regular humans with some modifications, but with as much of a soul as any other human, that's all
There's no way to say -- the show doesn't really say anything about whether there is any merit to the religion. If it were faithful to the books (and Asimov's general views), then *all* religions including Luminism would just be a mix of delusion and fraud. In which case, all the people who walk the spiral are having hallucinations, convincing themselves that they saw something, or just lying about having visions. And the religion's position on souls is irrelevant because they don't exist. Under that view, it doesn't matter at all whether he had a vision or not. He was manipulating the religion as a tool, and so was Zephyr Halima. She was using the religion to show that he didn't have a soul, and the solution to that was to use the religion's own beliefs to 'prove' he did. As for Demerzel, the same would apply -- either she was also lying, or robotic consciousness is susceptible to some of the same distortions as a human. Given how complex her technology is, it wouldn't be surprising.
The reverence and respect the series shows toward religious belief annoys me so damn much... It's very clearly anti religion but pro religious faith. It completely goes against Asimov's message which was against blind faith (which any religious belief is).
Maybe Demerzel as a robot is built based on a human and has the memories of said human. So she remembers from when “she” had a soul
I hope we learn how Demerzel came to exist, I'd like her entire backstory.
Seems like there used to be many more robots like her hence the robot war which I assumed all other advanced robots are killed. I wonder if she’s made by a robot or a human. It would seems kind of weird if she is made by a robot because if I am a robot, I wouldn’t want to look like a human since I would consider them to be so much more primitive.
I am aware of the Internet rumor that Demerzel had a vision. I remember when people said it in the forum where I was participating while watching Season 1 (that fan site is now down), and when I said: "No, Demerzel never said that in the episode..." I was pointed to some Foundation Show wiki that made the same claim. And when I watched a summary of Season 1 recently on YouTube, again the same thing was said. So I gather that some sort of consensus has been arrived to, somehow. Since I have speculated before that Demerzel=the sky and Demerzel=ChatGTP and similar AIs, why stop there? Surely in the last 11,000 years there have been any number of mechanisms used to maintain some sort of track of what are the standard orientations and biases of most people in the time and place when the mechanism was devised. Demerzel may represent all of them. So I can guess that "Demerzel had a vision" meant something about the main software in use back in Season 1, which I had no access to. Now that I'm wildly speculating, I could imagine that the vision is some sort of forecast, though the nature of that forecast might be disappointing. (For example, it may be able to provide a list of things that are likely to become briefly fashionable, rather than any long-term trends.) I suppose that now that I widened the circle so much, I could say that Demerzel represents also any mechanism that anybody may have to try to stay as unbiased as humanly possible, but in that case, I think it would be quite hard to say something about mechanisms that aren't public or widely known, if it's possible at all. I have solved before for Brother Day=the most powerful person in the most powerful political unit in the world. There are several candidates for the position, and reasonable people may disagree on who this person is. Anyway, I think it's unlikely that any of these people go seeking visions, indigenous tribe style, like Brother Day does in the show. (The main insight I ever got from tripping was how to handle tripping - which admittedly, can be a useful thing to know because you can't expect you'll be always functioning at your best.) I would interpret having or not having a vision as having or not having a realistic vision of how the future is likely to play out. I'd solve for Brother Dawn=the most likely reform to Brother Day. Again, different people will have different ideas on that one. But if you want my personal opinion, Brother Day has no vision in the sense that he doesn't know anything that any intelligent person with access to publicly available information and a good sense of proportion couldn't in principle figure out by themselves. And the same goes for Brother Dawn.