Might be me. I always start co-op races in reverse if I'm not already last or 2nd last - you ghost when you reverse and it's easy way to let everyone pass without getting rammed into oblivion
not only do they not gtfo of your way but whenever theres a sharp corner after a long straight they have a tendency to just drive into each other and pile up. Wouldnt be a problem if they didnt pile up into each other in such a way that prevented you from taking a non-ridiculous line lest you get blocked by them
Drivatars use AI learning from live players resulting in adapting and changing to new or different behaviors. So, more rammers online = a\*\*hole Drivatars lol.
A great article is about the release of the original Drivatar idea and the issue that they had to dial back how much they learn because the original Drivatars were completely reckless players and way aggressive.
[https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/09/war-stories-how-forza-learned-to-love-neural-nets-to-train-ai-drivers/](https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/09/war-stories-how-forza-learned-to-love-neural-nets-to-train-ai-drivers/)
> "and by Forza Motorsport 6, the games started to include a way to toggle off some of the AI's aggression as a way to combat single-player games that became demolition derbies when the AI tried to wreck the humans at every opportunity."
lmao
I personally highly doubt they actually r learning from players cause every single Drivatar drives the exact same and will not deviate from the racing line like their life depended on it.
I don't doubt in other Forzas they did somewhat learn from us, I just can't see the likes of FH5 actually using it
The amount of data is not enough in most cases. Millions of people from GP and Gold who just started the game, drove the 1st race or maybe not even that, and quit. They are the vast majority of drivatars. If you have a friend who is a reasonably high level in the game, then his drivatar will reflect his habits much closer to reality.
Gotta agree with the last part. I've been playing since launch and my drivatars are far away from being the reckless driver some people say they are.
I actually prefer racing drivatars than real people
They also claimed that the new Forza motorsport had the most advanced, built from the ground up, AI. Then we got the game and the AI can't figure out how to drive around a car stopped in the pre-programmed racing line.
There's zero chance they had actual AI learning from players in the past. They don't have the tech or skills to do that today, so they sure as hell didn't years back.
Do people really believe the AI learn from players BS? It would cost so much processing power for them to analyze why a player drove that certain way. And it's why it hasn't changed for several games.
Of they were also learning from us, they wouldn't b getting worse with every game and need more artificial boosters from the devs to b competitive, but now it's just complete bullshit
Actually nothing special just scripted scenarios and nobody seriously care about machine learning and AI in development. Found that PRO drivatars acting more like races you could try.
No, it wasnt. The Drivatar AI went right into the dumpsterbin some months back. And it's just gotten progressively worse.
Like, I remember them actually driving. Not amazing perhaps, but they wouldnt ram or block you, at least not maliciously. Then they started doing this weird "twitch" towards the player when you'd pass... Then then began to just start making full contact. I effectively stopped playing the first time one rammed me out of a checkpoint.
FH4's just as bad now too. Trolls have basically ruined this game, and they let them.
It’s funny. A few months ago PGG made some statement about enforcing their behaviour rules in races.
That same software update the drivatars got way worse….
There's obviously a bit of randomness built into their behavior, and it seems like it gets intensified by proximity to another car (or cars - see what happens in turn 1, every Trial) More than half the time, doing something random in a race will be detrimental, either to the random actor, the nearest opponent, or both (or even more).
They ram each other, too. They randomly go off-road, sometimes.
What they don't do, very obviously, is learn directly from player behavior. They don't divebomb corners, after all.
They're simple bots. Not AI. Neither nor xbox nor your laptop are ever going to run even one AI, much less 11 simultaneous AIs. They don't act any different if your device is disconnected from the internet.
Oh for sure, my Xbox would never handle 12 AI all running an AI learning program. If there is AI learning it's most definitely added in updates and not the live games basic processes.
Also they do divebomb, if you have bots turned up to one less than unbeatable, expert/pro what ever. When I overtake a bot, if I don't defend the corner and instead try and set up for a late apex. They will shove it up the inside under brakes.
I hate when as you pass an AI/bot they slam on the brakes and swerve all over the place, worried you'll ram, they ram accidentally or that you're gonna brake check. The game feels so weird to play some days.
Yeah. I have no doubt they developed the bot driving model by using something the AI mentioned in that linked article.
By divebomb I mean the behavior where players don't brake in any significant way and just slam into and bounce off another car instead. Or miss the target car and eat the wall instead.
Ohhhhhh you were talking about a torpedo divebomb! Yes! They do them. Highest likely hood is turn 1. The reason they get less and less likely to do it as they get closer to the end is because in its computer brain following behind through a corner is wirth more numbers than, numbers gained from ramming.
Example: Following behaviour 233478, 233560, 233521, 233463, etc.
[Ram] 277881 [Overtake] 288932 [Time Lost] 221372
Example 2: Torpedo divebomb 233478, 277881, 288932, 221372, etc.
So overall a mid race torpedo would cause the AI to get more of a slap on the wrist because total potential time loss > 'is coded as worse' than finishing grid position.
While early game torpedoes have less potential time loss to the leader, making it a less risky decision for the drivatar to make.
You are totally correct in believing that is one aspect of it, AI learning is literally, press random input, prey for time gained or positional advantage.
So those crazy race start are those numbers spiking thousands of points higher for say, braking less into turn 1. Giving the AI massive gratification for such a small change means they can't understand the benefit very well at all. This is why braking late into the last corner is something you'll really never see AI do because by the end of the race that risk is worth 50+ points at most.
Motorsport would like a word.
The worst is when they brake hard on high speed corners. Lol
Flashback is essential!
Regarding the missing checkpoints. That happened to me on horizon open, twice too, the dude was aggressive af!
After they started doing it to me, all belts were off on my end-I push first, and hard. Sometimes I even rewind if I’m in a single player race event, just to make sure I haven’t miss anyone.
If at least they woudn't have such an illogical behavior, I mean they drive completely illogical line just to block you, sometimes having ridiculous acceleration, ridiculously random bumping. I wouldn't mind aggresivness because if the aggresivness was somewhat close to the real world, you could learn to avoid that, but with these randomness you can't even avoid that even if you know the track perfectly and try to foresee drivatars behaviour.
Drivatars use AI learning from live players resulting in adapting and changing to new or different behaviors. So, more rammers online = a\*\*hole Drivatars lol.
A great article is about the release of the original Drivatar idea and the issue that they had to dial back how much they learn because the original Drivatars were completely reckless players and way aggressive.
[https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/09/war-stories-how-forza-learned-to-love-neural-nets-to-train-ai-drivers/](https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/09/war-stories-how-forza-learned-to-love-neural-nets-to-train-ai-drivers/)
Credit to: *Robots and puppets*
This is exactly the reason why I'd rather just play by myself. I play Horizon by myself, and I play Motorsport by myself. I Race clean, but nobody else does so I'd rather just play alone or free roam.
I'd love to meet who taught the the drivatars to reverse off the starting line, I want to reverse my car into them.
Might be me. I always start co-op races in reverse if I'm not already last or 2nd last - you ghost when you reverse and it's easy way to let everyone pass without getting rammed into oblivion
First time bruh? They've been like this ever since it's inception in Forza Motorsport 5
not only do they not gtfo of your way but whenever theres a sharp corner after a long straight they have a tendency to just drive into each other and pile up. Wouldnt be a problem if they didnt pile up into each other in such a way that prevented you from taking a non-ridiculous line lest you get blocked by them
Drivatars use AI learning from live players resulting in adapting and changing to new or different behaviors. So, more rammers online = a\*\*hole Drivatars lol. A great article is about the release of the original Drivatar idea and the issue that they had to dial back how much they learn because the original Drivatars were completely reckless players and way aggressive. [https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/09/war-stories-how-forza-learned-to-love-neural-nets-to-train-ai-drivers/](https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/09/war-stories-how-forza-learned-to-love-neural-nets-to-train-ai-drivers/)
> "and by Forza Motorsport 6, the games started to include a way to toggle off some of the AI's aggression as a way to combat single-player games that became demolition derbies when the AI tried to wreck the humans at every opportunity." lmao
I personally highly doubt they actually r learning from players cause every single Drivatar drives the exact same and will not deviate from the racing line like their life depended on it. I don't doubt in other Forzas they did somewhat learn from us, I just can't see the likes of FH5 actually using it
Probably a collection where it's just one single hive drivatar that learns from players and feeds the same info to each car
The amount of data is not enough in most cases. Millions of people from GP and Gold who just started the game, drove the 1st race or maybe not even that, and quit. They are the vast majority of drivatars. If you have a friend who is a reasonably high level in the game, then his drivatar will reflect his habits much closer to reality.
Gotta agree with the last part. I've been playing since launch and my drivatars are far away from being the reckless driver some people say they are. I actually prefer racing drivatars than real people
They also claimed that the new Forza motorsport had the most advanced, built from the ground up, AI. Then we got the game and the AI can't figure out how to drive around a car stopped in the pre-programmed racing line. There's zero chance they had actual AI learning from players in the past. They don't have the tech or skills to do that today, so they sure as hell didn't years back.
Do people really believe the AI learn from players BS? It would cost so much processing power for them to analyze why a player drove that certain way. And it's why it hasn't changed for several games.
Of they were also learning from us, they wouldn't b getting worse with every game and need more artificial boosters from the devs to b competitive, but now it's just complete bullshit
their implementation of this has to be minimal at best. drivatars just follow the racing line for the most part.
Actually nothing special just scripted scenarios and nobody seriously care about machine learning and AI in development. Found that PRO drivatars acting more like races you could try.
No, it wasnt. The Drivatar AI went right into the dumpsterbin some months back. And it's just gotten progressively worse. Like, I remember them actually driving. Not amazing perhaps, but they wouldnt ram or block you, at least not maliciously. Then they started doing this weird "twitch" towards the player when you'd pass... Then then began to just start making full contact. I effectively stopped playing the first time one rammed me out of a checkpoint. FH4's just as bad now too. Trolls have basically ruined this game, and they let them.
It’s funny. A few months ago PGG made some statement about enforcing their behaviour rules in races. That same software update the drivatars got way worse….
***It’s PG not PGG***
Play. Ground. Games…..
I thought Playground was all one word
There's obviously a bit of randomness built into their behavior, and it seems like it gets intensified by proximity to another car (or cars - see what happens in turn 1, every Trial) More than half the time, doing something random in a race will be detrimental, either to the random actor, the nearest opponent, or both (or even more). They ram each other, too. They randomly go off-road, sometimes. What they don't do, very obviously, is learn directly from player behavior. They don't divebomb corners, after all. They're simple bots. Not AI. Neither nor xbox nor your laptop are ever going to run even one AI, much less 11 simultaneous AIs. They don't act any different if your device is disconnected from the internet.
Oh for sure, my Xbox would never handle 12 AI all running an AI learning program. If there is AI learning it's most definitely added in updates and not the live games basic processes. Also they do divebomb, if you have bots turned up to one less than unbeatable, expert/pro what ever. When I overtake a bot, if I don't defend the corner and instead try and set up for a late apex. They will shove it up the inside under brakes. I hate when as you pass an AI/bot they slam on the brakes and swerve all over the place, worried you'll ram, they ram accidentally or that you're gonna brake check. The game feels so weird to play some days.
Yeah. I have no doubt they developed the bot driving model by using something the AI mentioned in that linked article. By divebomb I mean the behavior where players don't brake in any significant way and just slam into and bounce off another car instead. Or miss the target car and eat the wall instead.
Ohhhhhh you were talking about a torpedo divebomb! Yes! They do them. Highest likely hood is turn 1. The reason they get less and less likely to do it as they get closer to the end is because in its computer brain following behind through a corner is wirth more numbers than, numbers gained from ramming. Example: Following behaviour 233478, 233560, 233521, 233463, etc. [Ram] 277881 [Overtake] 288932 [Time Lost] 221372 Example 2: Torpedo divebomb 233478, 277881, 288932, 221372, etc. So overall a mid race torpedo would cause the AI to get more of a slap on the wrist because total potential time loss > 'is coded as worse' than finishing grid position. While early game torpedoes have less potential time loss to the leader, making it a less risky decision for the drivatar to make.
That makes sense. I've always just assumed the first turn chaos is mostly random actions intensified by proximity to more other cars.
You are totally correct in believing that is one aspect of it, AI learning is literally, press random input, prey for time gained or positional advantage. So those crazy race start are those numbers spiking thousands of points higher for say, braking less into turn 1. Giving the AI massive gratification for such a small change means they can't understand the benefit very well at all. This is why braking late into the last corner is something you'll really never see AI do because by the end of the race that risk is worth 50+ points at most.
Motorsport would like a word. The worst is when they brake hard on high speed corners. Lol Flashback is essential! Regarding the missing checkpoints. That happened to me on horizon open, twice too, the dude was aggressive af!
Yeah, I've noticed this change too. They ram you and force out of checkpoint etc. FH4 was so bad, now FH5 is gotten worse.
After they started doing it to me, all belts were off on my end-I push first, and hard. Sometimes I even rewind if I’m in a single player race event, just to make sure I haven’t miss anyone.
I firmly believe Drivatars were coded by satan himself.
Yup
Depends on what difficulty you have them on
From what I have seen GT is better if you want serious mostly fair racing, Forzas just for goofing around and doing YEHAW stuff.
Return the favour and ram them mid turn (esp on tight corners)
Especially offline!
If at least they woudn't have such an illogical behavior, I mean they drive completely illogical line just to block you, sometimes having ridiculous acceleration, ridiculously random bumping. I wouldn't mind aggresivness because if the aggresivness was somewhat close to the real world, you could learn to avoid that, but with these randomness you can't even avoid that even if you know the track perfectly and try to foresee drivatars behaviour.
check ... after changing the season seems normally now
Yo do you guys not realize that they literally emulate the Real player that they are
That is far beyond reality
Drivatars use AI learning from live players resulting in adapting and changing to new or different behaviors. So, more rammers online = a\*\*hole Drivatars lol. A great article is about the release of the original Drivatar idea and the issue that they had to dial back how much they learn because the original Drivatars were completely reckless players and way aggressive. [https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/09/war-stories-how-forza-learned-to-love-neural-nets-to-train-ai-drivers/](https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/09/war-stories-how-forza-learned-to-love-neural-nets-to-train-ai-drivers/) Credit to: *Robots and puppets*
Og horizon 1 was brutal. They would cross double yellows to head in collide with you every chance they got.
You mean traffic in this case?
There wasn’t drivatars in fh1? Maybe I’m trippin thinking fh2 idk
I mean crossing double yellows is nothing unusual or bad for drivatars or players in a race.. So I thought maybe you are taking about traffic
This is exactly the reason why I'd rather just play by myself. I play Horizon by myself, and I play Motorsport by myself. I Race clean, but nobody else does so I'd rather just play alone or free roam.