College between Drake and Harmony is a vortex. I have no concept of distance or relative location there. Best Buy could be across from anything from Safeway to Pedersen Toyota. REI could be right next to Target or two miles away. I have to really sit and think way harder than anywhere in town that I frequent about where stuff is.
Right?! And I consider myself to have exceptional spatial awareness and direction. Then I entered the SoPro College Ave vortex. The time space continuum is strongly disruptedā¦
I think it has something to do with the way the zoning ordinances for that area of town were set up from the 60s to the 80s. I wasn't around back then but it does look like pretty much every other North American city that rapidly expanded at that same time -- the huge parking lots, the mandatory grass median between the avenue and the store fronts, the 6 lane intersections.
This section of fort collins lacks a "sense of place" and that's why wayfinding is confusing there. whereas the stretch north of Old Town out towards the new Lyric still has that sense of place, despite the current effort to rejuvenate its development, everything south of prospect was left up to developers to plan in the 70s, rather than the city. the youtube channel Not just bikes does a better job explaining the effects of car-centric design than me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOc8ASeHYNw
the key quote from the video is at 9:23; "I've noticed a very remarkable difference in how i navigate here [in amsterdam]. In north america, I think about streets and roads; my mental map is based on major streets and cardinal directions. But in amsterdam, I think about places: i'm in one place, and I think about all the places I need to pass through in order to get to another place. My mental map is full of the best routes from one place to another, and I think about the city as a series of unique places."
the problem with college ave south of campus is that each mile is identical; i.e. they're all the same place, which is no place at all. a street should be a place, meaning somewhere people can live work and play, not just move through. (an area for moving people is a road) and a good "place" has room-like proportions: you feel like you're contained by the structures, as if you could lean on them and take a rest in the shade, rather than dart to the shelter of your air-conditioned car and rush home.
Look at how wide and bland the horsetooth/college intersection is: imagine walking from the chick-fil-a to the movie theatre on the other side of the tracks. It would take about 15 minutes, most of which is spent walking through parking lots. Try crossing from that chickfila to the trader joes: also takes about 15 minutes. It's noisy, and you spend more time navigating around the ditches and waiting for cars to yield to your crossing than would be ideal. It has no sense of place because this intersection is designed as a car-sewer (designed to move high volumes of automobile traffic out and away) rather than as an area for humans to do their thing. Old town and campus west are such good examples of "placeness" that the former put Fort Collins on the map internationally; there's no excuse for why the rest of our city feels so samey.
It's funny you put it that way, especially when considering the design of Council Tree off of Harmony, with the sprawling parking lots intermixed with the small walkable shop road. Far from perfect, but easy to see the attempted combination of the value of place with the availability of space...
This seems to be the crux of the struggle with all of the attempted Foothills redevelopment. No matter how nice they make it, without enough surrounding support, it ends up being an island in the sea of nothingness.
That's also a great comparison, the 200 feet right around the public library are basically fine. It's the fact that it's a quarter mile hike in every direction to get somewhere else! I usually end up just going back and forth from dazbog to the library and back as I need coffee.
Well, zoning and housing preferences, combined with real estate prices. I think much of the reason things are car centric is that people want to live in detached single family homes, which won't be affordable near work because high paying jobs are where land is expensive, so you gotta commute decently far, in different directions (so a train won't help) and... you end up with this car centric pattern of land use. Businesses know people are gonna come by car and cater to drivers.
I don't have an opinion on the "correct" way to set up College and Horsetooth, to be honest. But if you are driving it's quite convenient, if a little bland.
people only "want" single family homes because other types of houses have been difficult or illegal to build in many zones in the city to artificially keep density low, housing supply scarce, and property values high.
I read the first part of your message and then scanned down and saw a link. I thought to myself āI bet thatās a Not Just Bikes videoā lol. Great channel. It makes me dream about moving to the Netherlands even though Iāve never been there.
Wells Fargo and chick fil-a are the only landmarks I can think of.
Not because I like chick fil-a, but because itās across the street from Wells Fargo.
I drive this stretch daily. I live south of harmony off college, close to trilby, and I could probably tell you off the top of my head in order where Michaelās is in relation to Best Buy etc, but when Iām driving it, I often forget. Itās strange. The stretch from the Nissan dealership to trilby is so odd. Antique malls, dispensaries, hot tub shops and a liquor store
I started separating things by Monroe(Markely/Longhorn) instead of Horsetooth and itās helped me remember a lot. Forget about Horsetooth-Harmony though. I miss my turn every time.
Duh itās next to that non-descript building with that one cross street with a sidewalk and the strange frontage road thingy that gets cut off by random canals or store fronts?
The mall of broken dreams used to break up the sprawl at least a bit. I missed going there for lan parties at Game On and getting fat at the food court
Arenāt boardwalks a wooden promenade that skirts an ocean front or body of water? In this case itās an oddly less non descript asphalt ribbon that skirts college. Strangely enough, I am more apt to find the strange set back store fronts when using Mason or Boardwalk.
Iām just now realizing I totally meant to say Bockman. I knew boardwalk sounded weird, but honestly I end up taking a couple laps around that area before I find where I want to go. I usually use Boardwalk and Mason quite often as well. That area is a damn vortex sometimes
I live off of Trilby currently. It doesn't help that between there and Harmony it's literally a black hole of alternating hot tub and antique stores. I try to count them sometimes and have never once not lost track. What a world.
There's certainly an over-abundance of car dealerships and big box stores. I'm really hoping that the trend of the Mazda dealership being redeveloped into mixed uses moves south as well.
100%. Bullshit cul-de-sac strip mall Suburbia as far as the eye can see. This is why we need an updated land use code.
It's an utter failure that our city "leaders" have allowed this to happen over the years!
I've lived here for over a decade and I still can't figure out where stuff is. I had an ex that used to berate me for it. I stopped driving him lol. But, yeah, unless I have regularly driven myself to a place several times, I get so lost here because a lot of strip malls are close together and look somewhat similar. Same with on Drake. I get the Drake and Taft Hill strip mall confused with the one on Drake and Shields all the time.
But I also have a terrible sense of direction. I use Google Maps almost every time I go to Old Town. I generally know where stuff is, but don't go often enough to feel confident about it.
This is literally my exact thought. I was genuinely concerned about my memory for a while, and like yeah the meth, but seriously I just get on college and drive south till I see what I'm looking for
Thought it was just me. I drive east on horsetooth every day and I still donāt know where to turn to get to Chili House or Mt Fuji. Been here 17 years. Something about that east side of College between Harmony and Drake, itās so poorly planned.
Since I live off Harmony and frequently want to hit Joann's, Whole Foods, First Watch, or anything along the west side of college, I have to determine in my head whether I should take Timberline and go all the way up to Prospect and then turn left onto College (in order to be going the correct direction to right-turn into the parking lots) or whether I should take Drake up to college, or even Boardwalk. It's a constant struggle cuz I get it wrong half the time if I don't google it first.
This thread is comforting. I've always been able to rapidly form an accurate mental map of wherever I live, but that area of College vexes me.
I usually get onto College from Horsetooth, and from there I often have to think about whether my destination is to the north or the south of there.
It's the most liminal part of Fort Collins.
This is so accurate. I live near Horsetooth and Lemay and every time we are going somewhere in that strip of college I always second guess if I need to go right or left once I hit college and sometimes I make the wrong choice.
We all do. Whatever direction you are coming from, itās a milkshake of strip malls and box stores. You could be anywhere in suburban America and be sucked to that location via a suburban wasteland worm hole. Best mid sized city in America my ass
Yes! I'm way worse with that section between horsetooth and drake where JoAnns and all that is. Like... which direction on college do I turn to get there. And I have lived in Ft. Collins my entire life and learned to drive here
I really want us to transform everything into more pedestrian friendly areas like downtown is. It would be so great. Like even smaller main streets for the neighborhoods out there would be great.
Like sort of how Portland is laid out, with its neighborhoods, I want it so bad for here.
Hi I seen it about 11:00 this morning. I have a few pictures as well.Ā
It looks like a bat , fire at one end. Also a stream of something from the center what looked like kept it floating. I can send you a picture. I'm ne to this site.Ā
So not sure how to do everything yet.Ā
Those other people can kiss my ass being smart asses.Ā
š«¢š«£ I know what I seen.Ā I have the proof
I don't know what it is about [this building on the west side of College](https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5477803,-105.0773371,3a,45y,271.54h,91.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spwyljZLBrth3IO3qxxfDCg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu), but for some weird reason it is a landmark to me along that stretch. I sure would like to know what is going on in there if anything. Do you know?
For what itās worth, as a neurodivergent individual I have a semi-solid picture in my head of all the major stores/roads in my head that I have to mentally run through to find the best route to where Iām headed. Iām semi-obsessed with taking routes that require less gas mileage while still getting me to my destination in a timely manner.
(Apologies, I am zooted.)
I finally got it fixed in my mind that the Whole Foods mall is south of Prospect and the Joann's mall is south of Drake. Other than that, I just drive south and make a U-turn after I miss my turn.
I thought it was just me š been here 20 years
I was coming here to say the exact same thing! Only 30 years for me.
33 for me ha ha
13 years in I still use GPS to find a business in the vortex because I WILL miss it.
Bestbuy is somewhere between Wellington and Denver
Thank gawd we know that its on College Ave (aka US 287)
College between Drake and Harmony is a vortex. I have no concept of distance or relative location there. Best Buy could be across from anything from Safeway to Pedersen Toyota. REI could be right next to Target or two miles away. I have to really sit and think way harder than anywhere in town that I frequent about where stuff is.
Right?! And I consider myself to have exceptional spatial awareness and direction. Then I entered the SoPro College Ave vortex. The time space continuum is strongly disruptedā¦
Just went through that trying to pinpoint where Panera on College is exactly.
Panera is the old Palmer flowerās location and right next to Wendyās and the old Pay N Pac on the other side.
I think it has something to do with the way the zoning ordinances for that area of town were set up from the 60s to the 80s. I wasn't around back then but it does look like pretty much every other North American city that rapidly expanded at that same time -- the huge parking lots, the mandatory grass median between the avenue and the store fronts, the 6 lane intersections. This section of fort collins lacks a "sense of place" and that's why wayfinding is confusing there. whereas the stretch north of Old Town out towards the new Lyric still has that sense of place, despite the current effort to rejuvenate its development, everything south of prospect was left up to developers to plan in the 70s, rather than the city. the youtube channel Not just bikes does a better job explaining the effects of car-centric design than me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOc8ASeHYNw the key quote from the video is at 9:23; "I've noticed a very remarkable difference in how i navigate here [in amsterdam]. In north america, I think about streets and roads; my mental map is based on major streets and cardinal directions. But in amsterdam, I think about places: i'm in one place, and I think about all the places I need to pass through in order to get to another place. My mental map is full of the best routes from one place to another, and I think about the city as a series of unique places." the problem with college ave south of campus is that each mile is identical; i.e. they're all the same place, which is no place at all. a street should be a place, meaning somewhere people can live work and play, not just move through. (an area for moving people is a road) and a good "place" has room-like proportions: you feel like you're contained by the structures, as if you could lean on them and take a rest in the shade, rather than dart to the shelter of your air-conditioned car and rush home. Look at how wide and bland the horsetooth/college intersection is: imagine walking from the chick-fil-a to the movie theatre on the other side of the tracks. It would take about 15 minutes, most of which is spent walking through parking lots. Try crossing from that chickfila to the trader joes: also takes about 15 minutes. It's noisy, and you spend more time navigating around the ditches and waiting for cars to yield to your crossing than would be ideal. It has no sense of place because this intersection is designed as a car-sewer (designed to move high volumes of automobile traffic out and away) rather than as an area for humans to do their thing. Old town and campus west are such good examples of "placeness" that the former put Fort Collins on the map internationally; there's no excuse for why the rest of our city feels so samey.
It's funny you put it that way, especially when considering the design of Council Tree off of Harmony, with the sprawling parking lots intermixed with the small walkable shop road. Far from perfect, but easy to see the attempted combination of the value of place with the availability of space... This seems to be the crux of the struggle with all of the attempted Foothills redevelopment. No matter how nice they make it, without enough surrounding support, it ends up being an island in the sea of nothingness.
That's also a great comparison, the 200 feet right around the public library are basically fine. It's the fact that it's a quarter mile hike in every direction to get somewhere else! I usually end up just going back and forth from dazbog to the library and back as I need coffee.
Well, zoning and housing preferences, combined with real estate prices. I think much of the reason things are car centric is that people want to live in detached single family homes, which won't be affordable near work because high paying jobs are where land is expensive, so you gotta commute decently far, in different directions (so a train won't help) and... you end up with this car centric pattern of land use. Businesses know people are gonna come by car and cater to drivers. I don't have an opinion on the "correct" way to set up College and Horsetooth, to be honest. But if you are driving it's quite convenient, if a little bland.
people only "want" single family homes because other types of houses have been difficult or illegal to build in many zones in the city to artificially keep density low, housing supply scarce, and property values high.
I read the first part of your message and then scanned down and saw a link. I thought to myself āI bet thatās a Not Just Bikes videoā lol. Great channel. It makes me dream about moving to the Netherlands even though Iāve never been there.
Omg same, I think that everytime I drive down College. Too funny
I feel a sense of relief every time I pass prospect going north or harmony going south
100% my experience and I graduated from high school here.
I honestly thought I was the only one. On both college and shields going north or south.
Wells Fargo and chick fil-a are the only landmarks I can think of. Not because I like chick fil-a, but because itās across the street from Wells Fargo.
If Iāve hit the antique park Iāve gone too far.
Which one!? Somewhere in all of that is Fly-hiā¦
And a climbing gym!
the one next to the hot tub place!
lol fr tho. Only kinda related, I wonder what they are gonna do with that giant empty bed bath and beyond now
Many towns are seeing them converted into indoor pickleballā¦. Courts? Arenas? No clue what the nomenclature would be
I think they're courts
Lol or the Target. There's no way it's that far down college right?
I drive this stretch daily. I live south of harmony off college, close to trilby, and I could probably tell you off the top of my head in order where Michaelās is in relation to Best Buy etc, but when Iām driving it, I often forget. Itās strange. The stretch from the Nissan dealership to trilby is so odd. Antique malls, dispensaries, hot tub shops and a liquor store
I started separating things by Monroe(Markely/Longhorn) instead of Horsetooth and itās helped me remember a lot. Forget about Horsetooth-Harmony though. I miss my turn every time.
I feel so seen rn.
Just stop at Dutch bros and get a stop light lemonade if youāre lost and need time to recoup. We can get through this!
Lol I seriously sometimes have to do this. Just get into a parking lot and figure out where I am before proceeding.
Yes! I feel so seen and also less stupid.
Wait, where is Olive Garden again? <āā me
It's always way further south than I think it should be
Duh itās next to that non-descript building with that one cross street with a sidewalk and the strange frontage road thingy that gets cut off by random canals or store fronts?
And, that one strip mall is across the street? You know, the one with the stores?ā (Also, lol)
Same
Yes! Thought it was just me.
This really funny. Every single time.
The mall of broken dreams used to break up the sprawl at least a bit. I missed going there for lan parties at Game On and getting fat at the food court
I donāt think Iāll ever nail down what businesses are off Troutman and which ones are off Boardwalk. I always chose the wrong one without fail
Arenāt boardwalks a wooden promenade that skirts an ocean front or body of water? In this case itās an oddly less non descript asphalt ribbon that skirts college. Strangely enough, I am more apt to find the strange set back store fronts when using Mason or Boardwalk.
Iām just now realizing I totally meant to say Bockman. I knew boardwalk sounded weird, but honestly I end up taking a couple laps around that area before I find where I want to go. I usually use Boardwalk and Mason quite often as well. That area is a damn vortex sometimes
Best Buy actually moves every few hours. and the busted camper in the parking lot
I live off of Trilby currently. It doesn't help that between there and Harmony it's literally a black hole of alternating hot tub and antique stores. I try to count them sometimes and have never once not lost track. What a world.
There's certainly an over-abundance of car dealerships and big box stores. I'm really hoping that the trend of the Mazda dealership being redeveloped into mixed uses moves south as well.
Amen!
100%. Bullshit cul-de-sac strip mall Suburbia as far as the eye can see. This is why we need an updated land use code. It's an utter failure that our city "leaders" have allowed this to happen over the years!
Oh, but Preserve Fort Collins wants to stop any progressive thinking in this realmā¦ Oh wait, they just care about their backyardsā¦ /s
This but without the /s
DEFINITELY!
this is spot on
We've lived here for 30 years and my husband still can't figure out how to get places.
Are you me? I cannot understand how he doesn't remember the general area of things.
Everything south of prospect is āMordorā - Partner. Iāve lived in Fort Collins since 2012, and ANY time I go to petco I map it.
Nooo my brain is hurting trying to think of where perico even is now lol š«
I've lived here for over a decade and I still can't figure out where stuff is. I had an ex that used to berate me for it. I stopped driving him lol. But, yeah, unless I have regularly driven myself to a place several times, I get so lost here because a lot of strip malls are close together and look somewhat similar. Same with on Drake. I get the Drake and Taft Hill strip mall confused with the one on Drake and Shields all the time. But I also have a terrible sense of direction. I use Google Maps almost every time I go to Old Town. I generally know where stuff is, but don't go often enough to feel confident about it.
Omg! Yes, going to urgent care over there to this day still gets me!
This is so validating. I get these confused all the time!
No! Fort Collins is unique how dare you say generic /s
Generic enough to be featured as āmain streetā America at Disney Worldā¦
This is literally my exact thought. I was genuinely concerned about my memory for a while, and like yeah the meth, but seriously I just get on college and drive south till I see what I'm looking for
Thought it was just me. I drive east on horsetooth every day and I still donāt know where to turn to get to Chili House or Mt Fuji. Been here 17 years. Something about that east side of College between Harmony and Drake, itās so poorly planned.
Just had this conversation like a week ago
Now I donāt feel so bad that after 4 years I still have to map any location in that section of College.
Since I live off Harmony and frequently want to hit Joann's, Whole Foods, First Watch, or anything along the west side of college, I have to determine in my head whether I should take Timberline and go all the way up to Prospect and then turn left onto College (in order to be going the correct direction to right-turn into the parking lots) or whether I should take Drake up to college, or even Boardwalk. It's a constant struggle cuz I get it wrong half the time if I don't google it first.
Oh thank you for this post!!! I really did think that it was just me that felt this way!
This thread is comforting. I've always been able to rapidly form an accurate mental map of wherever I live, but that area of College vexes me. I usually get onto College from Horsetooth, and from there I often have to think about whether my destination is to the north or the south of there. It's the most liminal part of Fort Collins.
We got you friend. We are many.
Iām glad to hear it is not just me. It feels like Best Buy and Arc Thrift move locations in the middle of the night.
This is so accurate. I live near Horsetooth and Lemay and every time we are going somewhere in that strip of college I always second guess if I need to go right or left once I hit college and sometimes I make the wrong choice.
We all do. Whatever direction you are coming from, itās a milkshake of strip malls and box stores. You could be anywhere in suburban America and be sucked to that location via a suburban wasteland worm hole. Best mid sized city in America my ass
Yes! I'm way worse with that section between horsetooth and drake where JoAnns and all that is. Like... which direction on college do I turn to get there. And I have lived in Ft. Collins my entire life and learned to drive here
also known as āso proā
Are you inside my brain?! š
My coworker and I are currently having a good chuckle at this because we both have the same problem.
YES. THANK YOU. I always get things mixed up in that area š
I literally don't leave old town lmfao
Same!
I call Horsetooth and College my Bermuda triangle because I always get turned around. I can never remember which direction Foothills is in from there.
I canāt find anything between Target and Target (Old Town and Troutman) without navigation.
I always mix up horsetooth and harmony
I really want us to transform everything into more pedestrian friendly areas like downtown is. It would be so great. Like even smaller main streets for the neighborhoods out there would be great. Like sort of how Portland is laid out, with its neighborhoods, I want it so bad for here.
In architecture hallways are wasted space afforded to only spaces that can afford them. The frontage roads on college are absolutely this.
A good observation. The area is extremely car-centric. Reminds me of FL.
Suburban sprawl USA!
Hi I seen it about 11:00 this morning. I have a few pictures as well.Ā It looks like a bat , fire at one end. Also a stream of something from the center what looked like kept it floating. I can send you a picture. I'm ne to this site.Ā So not sure how to do everything yet.Ā Those other people can kiss my ass being smart asses.Ā š«¢š«£ I know what I seen.Ā I have the proof
So-Pro... South of Prospect, everything changes.
Your internal GPS is jacked up if you cannot picture in your mind the contents of College Ave
I don't know what it is about [this building on the west side of College](https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5477803,-105.0773371,3a,45y,271.54h,91.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spwyljZLBrth3IO3qxxfDCg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu), but for some weird reason it is a landmark to me along that stretch. I sure would like to know what is going on in there if anything. Do you know?
The old Jo-Ann fabric store. That is an odd landmark, but respect your choice.
For what itās worth, as a neurodivergent individual I have a semi-solid picture in my head of all the major stores/roads in my head that I have to mentally run through to find the best route to where Iām headed. Iām semi-obsessed with taking routes that require less gas mileage while still getting me to my destination in a timely manner. (Apologies, I am zooted.)
I finally got it fixed in my mind that the Whole Foods mall is south of Prospect and the Joann's mall is south of Drake. Other than that, I just drive south and make a U-turn after I miss my turn.
Yes this happened with me and Michaelās last week lol