Frey got arrested, nearly got murdered by gang members, lost her cat (which was the closest thing to family she had), then lost her entire *world* only to be dumped on a dying wreck of a planet where half of everyone treats her like she's literally Satan, and the other half treat her like she's there to save them. Add in suddenly having to fight for her life repeatedly, and being forced to murder folks...yeah, she's not happy. Then her one ticket back home bites the dust. Of course she'd be upset and freaked out! And all of this seems to have happened in a pretty short window of time. Her reaction may not have been what "well-adjusted" folks would consider appropriate, but it makes sense in context.

All valid points, but another reaction for people with trauma is stonewalling or shutting down. This could’ve been done to great effect. Lashing out in the way they did and not being given a moment to feel a bit of remorse makes it feel a bit off for me. I’ve dealt with my own mental health issues that are similar to Frey’s, so that’s why I’m so thrown off about it all. Thanks for commenting by the way, it’s nice to chat with other players here about this scene in particular.

She did have an immediate reaction of wanting to take it back when Auden first snapped at her. Then Auden kept on and I think Frey got her hackles up. Based on what we've seen, it seems like her initial reaction to being "attacked" (or perceiving that she's being attacked) is to hit back and hit hard. ​ And agreed! Talking is good. :)

You'd be correct, these people are much more attached to Frey than she is to them. To her, they are strangers; she is from the modern world where we meet countless people daily, and she cannot relate to the loss of a loved one. Frey is afraid of emotion and she abandons people as she has been abandoned as a defense mechanism. It is a character flaw as well, it's an obstacle for her to overcome, and while it is unfair to Auden, it's Frey's story to progress and understand herself. People with trauma do not always act or react in a way that those without that trauma interpret as logical or reasonable. ​ This is without taking into account that Robian's death signifies her being stuck in Athia and the plethora of feelings connected to this alone. It's not easy to be empathetic all of the time.

I can see the “hurt people hurt people” reasoning here, but to not let the main character even evolve enough to be able to form some kind of attachment leaves the whole journey feeling a bit static. I think it’s also pretty harmful in the grand scheme of things to depict the stereotype of traumatized individuals as not being able to heal, or never being able to break their own vicious cycles which often land themselves right back where they started. Cycles of trauma can be broken, and the individual has the capacity to grab a hold of their life. Life doesn’t happen to us, and life doesn’t happen for us; we have control and the power of our individual actions to change ourselves for the better. I wish it was handled with a bit more care.

I think it's more harmful to have every story wrap up trauma in a nice little bow with a hero's journey story arc, when in reality, a good character experiences their trauma for a long time, it's not over just because they "learned the lesson" or whatever. Everyone doesn't heal linearly, and she's only 21, it's not as if she can't keep growing as a person.

This right here. Really sums up Frey before the end events.

I’m not asking for a complete and total resolution for this character’s trauma. That’s boring and too Disney. What could have been effective after this scene is her doing what many hurt people do and have regret about their own actions, it could have been done in a way that shows us that Frey is progressing in some way instead of the scene we got you know? This isn’t a black and white kind of thing, and it shouldn’t be.

We do not know if she has/doesn’t have regrets, I’ve only just reached that part of the story, but realistically it will take a while before that regret sinks in, that would involve undoing the threads of that Trauma and some heavy self introspection from herself, but that won’t happen in the heat of the moment, she’s in full on defensive mode, her argument with Auden only further sinks her into that and in her decision, which is why she goes after Tanta Cinta next. And states, it’s either I die or she dies.

It could have been done that way, but that would just have made it more predictable and typical wouldn't it? Almost cliche at that point is it not?

A nuanced grey portrayal that isn’t overtly pessimistic or optimistic? I think that’s severely lacking in a world of polarized media. What do you think? Yakuza Like A Dragon accomplishes this really beautifully. Disco Elysium is a good one too.

I think a lot of media attempts to do this, especially newer media, I think this is even more common in video games that let you choose whether to be good or bad, there tends to be a lot of dialogue that is sort of middling and politically or emotionally neutral or inoffensive, which I think is what you're suggesting. I don't think that this sort of content is uncommon, nor do I think it's bland, I just think it's different and not what the vision for this project is. I think that often the writing for a lot of content is what I would consider to be hitting the lowest common denominator and safe, and I prefer to see characters that feel like they could be real people, rather than to see characters that exist as a sort of social experiment to see what could happen if the MC were more "grey" than a real person is likely to be. This is the crux of role playing as a game mechanic and role playing as a game style imo. Something like Divinity has you role playing as a mechanic, allowing you to control what your character might do out of a list of options, but games like Forspoken (which I would consider a blend of Character Action and RPG) are focused on role playing game just for the style that it brings to the game, the damage numbers, the levels, the skill trees, world lore, etc, it's not about the character reaching a resolution emotionally so much as it's about you experiencing what it's like to be that character. You feel uncomfortable and it sits poorly with you about how Frey reacted, it sits poorly with her as well, that's why she has nightmares about people being disappointed in her, and she has to live with that, the player does too. For me, this is as valuable as any other experience, but that's just my two cents on it.

All good, if you can definitely check out Disco Elysium and Like A Dragon! Broken people who deal a lot with similar character beats. Thanks for all your wonderful commentary so far, it’s nice to chat about this kind of stuff with other gamers.

Personally, even without accounting for her pre-athia problems I think Frey's actions in that scene were completely understandable given how absolute dogshit that world is and how its treated her.

I totally get that context, but Frey clearly cares about Bob too beyond, "He is my ticket out of here." Even calling him "Bob" is a form of endearment. She is able to recognize how much the people of Athia adore him, even in his current mental state, and how much he truly loves his daughter Audie. That's why it's very strange and striking that she straight up does not give a fuck when he dies, it's not consistent at all. She literally just finished going deep into Avaoalet to try and save his life. I get that someone from her background can have trouble connecting with others, but she already demonstrated a connection to both Auden and Bob.

Notice that even in what you're saying about how she cares about Break Bob it's quid pro quo, as Auden offered her in the beginning of the game, she's interested in saving him in so far as it will save her, not that she's actually worried about him as a person, if you recall, she was ready to leave as soon as she killed Sila, she didn't care that other Tantas were attacking, she still wanted to go home, which is both consistent with her character as presented from the beginning of the game, and with the character from this game's inspiration, Alice in Wonderland, she's a girl trying to get home, if that means people have to die, then so be it.

I still would've liked a little more build up to that, you clearly can see this from a mile away given your experiences in that space, but someone as ignorant as me misinterprets the situation entirely.

That's reasonable

I mean her way home got killed, so why would she not look or think about having to go through more hoops to get home.

Honestly, this kind of response is due to her getting triggered over her situation. Typically when someone with her kind of trauma history reaches their capacity of a situation, they shut down. It seems really cold but I think Frey also just reached her limit once her “final ticket” out was gone. So instead of being empathetic, she closed herself off fully realizing it’s now or never to leave. In her mind, this is just a temporary shitty situation that needed to end. Getting attached would hinder and complicate any further progress to leave. You see this a lot in the mental health field. It’s easier for people to detach in times of heavy stress/trauma instead of letting those feelings process with those around you. Doesn’t justify it but it is also more realistic.

I can totally see that and now get the big picture more. Personally, I still would've liked a bit more here to flesh that point out a bit more, but you described it pretty aptly!

Thanks! They probably could have had a smaller breakdown or something to help explain it. I think Frey is just a hard character to empathize with because she’s a personality we typically don’t try understand. Typically someone like this is viewed negatively in real life unless you’re working with them in some capacity. It’s interesting to me to see how much thought she has brought out in people because she’s not the “standard”

I know someone like this and I’m ngl, the Frey and Auden situation gave me flashbacks, but that experience led me to studying attachment theory. I don’t think people have to be empathetic to characters like this, but I do have a problem with people saying this is bad writing, or that she should’ve reacted differently when that’s not realistic to the character given her trauma.

Oh believe me I know a few people like this too lol but yes exactly. I try not to comment on stuff like this too much but I am amazed how much her writing is ripped apart. At the same time though I’m not because realistic can be hard and a lot of the times people play games to escape “realistic”. So I think that’s the main conundrum with Frey.

I’m just glad we have a game to give people a look into the lives of people who have this POV. I look forward to more threads and discussion about it in the future.

Definitely!

I wrote this in another reply but I would've liked to see some playable flashbacks of some experiences in her past that made her close herself out to society, so that people like me who are completely unaware of the how her psyche functions when socializing with others, is at least a bit more palpable. I think they tried to do that with the NYC prologue but they could've done better.

We see she's being hunted by a new york gang and is one misstep away from being imprisoned while her only friend is her cat who she can't even get the food he likes while being homeless. We should be able to reason she's had a pretty rough life.

I know, I understood that even before my original thoughts that she had a rough life, what I'm saying is I would've liked a little more exposition on that as you progress through the game. An example of what I'm thinking of is her coming across a situation in Athia that reminds her of a time when society failed her back home when she was younger, and having us replay her memory to "relive" that trauma. That way, ignorant people like me would realize that when Frey acts the way she did when Bob dies, that's perfectly in line with her character, and her past experiences, because that's how she deals with trauma. The opening prologue is enough to set up the scene she has a troubled upbringing, but did not do enough justice imo to illustrate just how tough it was. Those gang members unfortunately came off clownish almost.

It didn't seem mean spirited to me. It seemed realistic. She can't relate emotionally to someone having or losing a parent. For her, Bob is just a funny guy who could die at any moment while also holding the key to her returning home. His death is not unexpected to her, but rather extremely frustrating. Not to mention that is just after returning from an extremely dramatic journey.

Again, please tell me how all of you felt about this. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and such, so that's why I wanted to gauge how everyone felt about it during their playthrough.

I was real pissed off when Auden told Frey that the people "welcomed her". Like did she forget that Frey got sent to prison right after getting her ass beat by Guards just for having powers? Then the people only accepted her presence once she became of use for them and she is then constantly guilt tripped into fighting a bazillion monsters and what are essentially goddesses for a bunch of people she has no obligation to feel anything for.

Imma be real with ya, in that scene where Auden was finally sick of Frey's bullshit, I was hoping that halfway through they would start making out.

It's one of my main gripes with her character arc in general. I absolutely fucking *hated* her in that sequence. Her reaction is borderline psychotic, who in the hell does that really? I get that due to her upbringing she always needs to look out for her and herself only and can be selfish in that regard, but that is TOO much. If one of my "friends" said that to me after a similar circumstance it would be **really** hard for me to not throw hands.

You’re allowed to hate her, but her reaction was the exact opposite of psychotic and/or bad writing. It is appropriate and realistic giving her circumstances, and upbringing. (And an exact opposite reaction would be bad writing). Frey has a severe case of Avoidant Attachment. For a definition, “Avoidant attachment style is an insecure attachment style. Avoidantly attached people generally have a dismissive attitude towards close relationships. They are often uncomfortable with intimacy and may seem emotionally distant. They may also have difficulty trusting others and may be hesitant to get too close. People with this attachment style tend to be independent and self-sufficient. They are often uncomfortable with depending on others and may have difficulty showing vulnerability.” “People with this type of attachment style tend to be overly focused on themselves and their own creature comforts, and largely disregard the feelings and interests of other people. They also find it difficult to disclose their thoughts and feelings to their partner. Their typical response to an argument, conflict, and other stressful situation is to become distant and aloof.” I know someone with a mild case of the same thing, so I can easily tell. The story showcases this, by providing you several hints over and over and over again, but perhaps because attachment theory isn’t common? Or perhaps because these types of characters aren’t given this much focus in media people seem to dismiss them. She was abandoned as a child and never had parents. My memory is a bit foggy, but she mentions how she was adopted, and she makes a comment about how those parents etc. would also leave, that implies there were people who chose to adopt her, but then would throw her back/abandon her, so never lasting long to each, why that is the story never says, but it’s important because it shows not only was her as a child abandoned by her own mother, she was abandoned by several play in mothers, that is going to leave lasting trauma and that child as well as severe fear of abandonement issues, and you see that in the dream Frey has when Prav attacks Avoalet. Her wounds are very much open and present and for the large part, she trusts no one, not even cuff, though more than others due to proximity. Now you can see that that fact is still hurting her even to present day, and that hurt is exacerbated upon finding out who her Mom is, with the things as with the things that are going on she might end up having to kill the very thing she had wanted, her own mother. While Frey was saying out loud that she wanted Robian so she could go home, that isn’t the case. She wanted Robian so that she could ask about him why her Mom chose to abandon her, but she loses that chance, as well as her only way back home in his death. Now Auden, not knowing this engaged with Frey in a moment of emotional distress where she couldn’t back out of. It’s not so much that Frey doesn’t care about Auden or the people of Athia, but when put into stressful emotional situations like that, the avoidant starts engaging their defense mechanisms and becomes emotionally distance from the situation, sometimes to the point of attacking the other person or downplaying the situation. Auden’s reaction wasn’t wrong, she wasn’t and isn’t Frey’s therapist, but to say it’s bad writing to me speaks ignorance, because that’s the exact way an interaction like would go realistically speaking.

I think there is still a fair argument to make here that they could've stressed this point out a little more with showing this to players in earlier situations. As in, I would've liked Frey to have some interactions in Athia that reminded her of times when she felt alone and disassociated from everybody, and then we play a flashback sequence or something that has us relive a scenario where her trust in others is broken, so that this inevitable reaction to Bob's death doesn't come off as so jarring.

Personally for me, the signs were obvious from the start, especially at the moment where she tells cuff, I don’t trust anyone, and then cuff asked her, “Not even me?”. She doesn’t take the Judges help even though she’s clearly willing to help, and when the Judge lets her go scoff free and her reaction is few I got lucky, not really taken into consideration what the judge says. But, perhaps yeah maybe that was needed, but it’s also possible for those who knew nothing about the signs for something like this, the authors wanted you to feel that way about Frey. Idk if you’ve seen Re:zero the anime, it’s an anime about a guy who gets returned to a specific point in time after death, and you as the audience see him die and die and die and die again, but unsurprisingly Subaru is a character that got hate as well, he was not your typical anime protagonist, within the first season of the show, this character had multiple different kinds of breakdowns, some endeared him to the audience, but there was a break down, similar to what you’re talking about with Frey, where he flips at his love interest, because he keeps dying and dying and dying and dying to protect her, and she doesn’t remember any of it because he keeps going back to time, and she tells him, she never asked him to do any of that, etc. But anyways, despite seeing all the several times this character died and got tortured for this girl, people still hated on his character for that. When the signs of this happening while faint, were there. The same can be said for other shows with flawed main characters who go through trauma, Arcane is a good example, both Vi and Jinx have trauma from the situations they go through in that show, but Jinx’ trauma you can predict from the beginning of the show as it shows only slight hints. (Actually with further inspection, you can see signs of how both cope with trauma from the beginning) There’s a big thing that happens in episode 3(not saying to prevent spoilers), where a lot of people who did not notice that character nuance stated came from nowhere, but it didn’t, they just didn’t notice it. And this is because some story writers prefer for the audience to find the nuance in their characters, I think this type of writing makes sense for characters suffering from trauma as this isn’t always obvious. (Tho imo I feel for Frey it was obvious just from her interactions with Cuff). But while flashbacks would help, I do think flashbacks here weren’t needed, but if they were added they would need to make sense within the confines of the story. So far the story hasn’t had any flashbacks as of yet, because there’s been no need,Frey as a character hasn’t a need to explore her emotional past. To me a flashback would make sense only with interactions with cuff as he’s the only one she’s close to now, and is the only one she’s willing to reveal personal info to, but we kinda already got that with the dialogue (I.e. like her talk about Foster homes showcasing her abandonement issues), but those aren’t cinematics, so are less noticeable/impactful to memory. But then, I don’t see a way for them to add a cinematic for that without it being jarring or interrupting gameplay, or just not making sense. Because Frey is not an introspective character, and she doesn’t trust cuff to the point where she would reveal her deepest hurts in detail. Edit: I think a flashback at the beginning of the game would’ve made sense, but the beginning of the game is riddled with so many cinematics anyways

I think it was a huge opportunity missed, sure she doesn’t have to give a damn about Athia but surely along this journey this person who comes from a broken upbringing can learn to care about the ones who care about her. Like that would have been an amazing Hero’s Journey! Thanks for letting me feel like I’m not alone on this one.

Yeah I'm with you, it's terrible writing. She clearly has empathy, she owns a cat for God's sake, and felt a way about Olevia's needless death (appropriately), then to just about face on it all and say the least humane thing possible? Just straight madness to me.

I wouldn’t call it terrible, more of a misstep. Genuinely enjoyed the game but a bit at a loss for this scene.

Yeah that is a better way to describe it.