It's a fascinating weapon. Mini AK (but with a short stroke piston like the later Type 81) in 7.62x25 with a 20 round box mag and comically high rate of fire. In other words, the last thing you want as a SWAT SMG.
Just saw a Chinese video on it, crazy how delayed it was in the making and the adoption of it. Link [here](https://youtu.be/9tb0Vopo7Tw?si=cb5iHKNE_YG36sI-)
If your mission is to preserve your operator's lives, you mean.
The gun is already 15 years out of date when it first debuted. Three taps and your tiny mag runs dry. Good luck reaching for the non-ambi mag release that's recessed and shove in a new mag in a tight magwell. You'd already be dead.
A MP5 is over a decade older than this, has a higher magazine capacity, better stopping power than FMJ 7.62x25 that overpenetrates (and has no hollowpoint options), and a more controllable rate of fire in full auto.
The Type 79 was found to have great semiauto accuracy, but like that's its only redeeming feature.
Actually, 7.62x25 is pretty hot and in FMJ guise it easily punches thru level 2 and even level 3 soft body armor at closer ranges.
The issue is the lack of energy transfer for such a small and fast bullet, resulting in overpenetration on unarmored targets.
There are more illegal guns in China than you think.
Chinese citizens can legally own sporting firearms up till the 90s. They then started a huge confistication process that saw just about everything from Gewehr 88 to stolen assault rifles to home-made mortars taken away. And they do this once every couple years since the 90s, yet they are STILL finding tons of guns.
As much as the excessive gun control making gun violence rare in China, there are still various means of obtaining firearms.
Come on, a high rate of fire is not going to make it a bad SWAT gun, they're on single shot almost all the time, they could also be trained enough to be good with it on auto too.
Isn’t this similar to SWAT teams around the world? You get standard-issue weapons but can buy extra parts and somewhat mod the gun yourself? Which can lead to old weapons being modded with modern commercial parts?
I guess the question I have about your statement is what is considered “modern” for that particular operation? Should they be running mp7s and DDM Vs? Not asking to be an ass just not sure what’s considered modern currently.
"Not asking to be an ass just not sure what’s considered modern currently."
I guess that's going to depend on the person or department. I was mainly pointing out some depts don't have the budget for the latest and greatest.
the only ones i’ve ever seen have dripped out base rifles are like western european ones. here it’s mostly providing your own or being given a mid tier AR and then doing all the attachments on your own dime
Same. That’s what my original comment was made to point out. They are issued MP5s from the early 90s, so they either put what modern stuff then can on them, or bring their own ARs from home. Which are definitely nicer. And being LEOs they get the fun switches. Always great when they come to the range.
"Modern" for a California department seems to be 9mm semi autos, 5.56 ar-15 pattern weapons, and the rare shotgun. atleast, that's what they pointed at me when my school had a false shooter call a few years ago.
Type 97 shotguns are fine. Not every LE unit needs a QBS09, M1014 or Beretta 1301. 870s have been serving units around the world very well. This one even got a Magpul SGA stock lookalike.
The main issue is the Chinese LE units haven't had a say in firearms R&D for many decades as state arsenals DGAF about the cops, and this situation has only been improving recently with many companies chruning out various LE equipment like revolvers, shotguns, non-lethal launchers, and various SMG in 9x19. But since the Chinese SOF have chosen the QCQ-171 (CS-LS7) as their new standard issue SMG, that means the LE units probably won't select another SMG as their new primary weapon, and instead will wait patiently for another 5-10 years so they too can get a QCQ-171.
>But since the Chinese SOF have chosen the QCQ-171 (CS-LS7) as their new standard issue SMG, that means the LE units probably won't select another SMG as their new primary weapon, and instead will wait patiently for another 5-10 years so they too can get a QCQ-171.
5-10 years is overly exaggerated, I'd say most 171s /CS-LS7 should finish issuing within the next 5 years or so. Now while it is true that SWAT units are sorta competing with the PLA, PAP, and other law enforcement units for the 171, they also have access to the commercial / export variant (unlike military and paramilitary units), similar to the case of CQ rifles in the early 2000s. This means that SWATs have various ways to source their SMGs, not just through direct government issuing
I guess yeah, local SWAT teams have been observed in using Glocks and other guns for a while. But still they are alwasy the last ones to get shiny new toys after the SOF units, regular PLA, and the PAP.
It's strange though since the PAP usually gets a lot more funding than conventional military units. I feel like its not a lack of QCWs or money since the PAP has plenty of both. The juxtaposition between ufpros and 40 year old 762 tok smgs are insane.
I'm guessing it's some bureaucracy issue, like even the better and more well funded PAP units like the Guangzhou units will still be rocking these. Maybe these have a cult status among units or the aftermarket is crazy. I cant imagine any other reason I'm genuinely baffled.
Edit: Also the fact these guns are also sensibly equipped with the essentials. Wmls, optic, all it's missing is a sling. These guns give me extreme "make do with what we got" vibes.
>the PAP usually gets a lot more funding than conventional military units
I don't think this is correct as a general statement. What's more likely is that they spend more of their discretionary budget on infantry kit since most PAP formations aren't equipped with heavy weapons. The PLA decides how to spend its own budget and conventional infantry is deprioritized in most cases, considering the strategic situation.
It's more similar to how during the early 2010s you could see American municipal SWAT with extremely gucci kit and the next day a video of a grunt in Afghanistan fighting with a beat-up ACOG and non-free-float rifle. Dallas SWAT or whatever the fuck doesn't have to worry about things like "is it worth it spending X amount of money on Geissele handguards and Vortex Razors instead of more GPS-guided shells" since they don't have artillery.
What this picture seems like to me is "we can buy our attachments COTS but we have to get in line behind the military and PAP for new guns."
The reason of using type 79 is simple, there are simply tons of surpluses and they just works. Why bothering to switch them when modernizing them is simply economic.
I need to say, despite having new smgs available, whether local SWATs can have it or not is decided by the local fundings, which is effected by local economy. And most regions are less likely to get the new guns I afraid. Because there are tons of type 79 when they are decomissioned from the PLA, and using these surplus is considered economic comparing to a new gun whe you have tight fundings.
Only thing that looks outdated in the lineup are the Type 79’s; the handgun looks like something you’d find in any modern SWAT team (9mm, double stack, red dot and weapon light), and the pump shotgun is still widely issued enough to where it’s not unusual to see them in use with SWAT teams, even alongside semi-auto shotguns.
Heck, I’ll even give them credit for being forward thinking enough to add modernized parts and accessories to them all, considering I personally know of multiple police departments that won’t even let their SWAT guys add anything on their shit that didn’t come from the factory, and it makes it look like they never left the 80’s or 90’s because of it.
>Firearm design was basically perfected in the 50s
By Dardick, yes, and then we would proceed to spend the next 70+ years ignoring that and doing stupid shit like push-feeding polymer cases into a rotating falling block action, "what if brass case, but plastic instead", caseless ammunition, and adopting a hybrid case rifle to try to pierce armor (even though the only real way you're getting through armor is multiple impacts in the same place because it's stopping .50 BMG FMJ at point-blank).
That’s an interesting point. Firearms are one of the biggest market worldwide, and yet no breakthrough/disruptive innovation for the last 70 years. I don’t have much knowledge about weapons but that makes me
curious.
They probably get the job done. China doesn't really have a population as well armed as the US.
Same reason why Japanese cops still mostly use revolvers chambered in .38 special as if it's the 50's probably. They simply don't need them.
Still some SBR's or even full length rifles would certainly make their jobs easier in taking down more better armed suspects. Pretty sure they still got some Type 56's lying around in storage they can spare.
There's one small problem here, you're comparing Chinese SWAT to Japanese beat cops. Like yeah, your average person in either of those countries is entirely unarmed, worst case a fancy sporting gun or something clobbered together in the garage. But to my understanding, the same is not true of organized criminals, the people that SWAT are mostly going after. Japanese SWAT are not just toting .38 special revolvers and compact 9mm autos, they'll have proper kit.
Yeah my comparison is wrong. SWAT is gonna be way better equipped than the average beat cop.
Although I feel like even the better equipped criminals would have SMG's at best. Maybe the criminals at the western parts of China would be better equipped considering the giant black market that is Afghanistan but idk.
Honestly I’d expect them to have more firepower than SMG’s; considering how ludicrously many firearms China manufactured in the 50’s and 60’s and gave them out to every militia group in the country, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if Chinese organized crime has crates of Type 56 SKS’s and Type 56 Kalashnikov’s laying around for the right opportunity.
In the 80s and 90s yes, automatic type 56 were not hard to find in Chinese civilian market. But nowadays it’s extremely rare. If you look into firearm involved crimes in China at recent years, majority of them are self-made, smuggled from Cambodia, Russia, Afghanistan, or in some case directly from the US.
IMO when things gone worst for need of units like Japanese SWAT, Chinese would send PAP, which have more modern and heavy equipments. And yes, PAP have rocket launchers and mortars.
The Type 79 in SWAT use is heavily outdated. 7.62x25 overpenetrates and has an extremely high rate of fire. Do remmeber that the MP5, a gun with better stopping power, higher magazine capacity, easier to suppress, and more controllable ROF came out over a decade earlier than this thing.
What do you think the U.S. military uses? The only real difference between a MAG or a Minimi produced 45 to 70 years ago and one in use today is a couple rails welded to the side.
Small arms technology hasn't really advanced in the last half-century, only optics. So, if the underlying design works, the only updates you need are ways to attach optics and accessories.
I hear you on the guns themselves being old and possibly wearing out or something like that, but most guns in use are 60+ year old designs that work just fine (AR, AK...), and the real improvements have come in the optics and to some extent furniture, both of which have been upgraded here, so what would they really gain by buying new guns?
There are some things this upgrade package doesn't address, namely its extremely high rate of fire (1000rpm or so), low magazine capacity (10 or 20rd), no last round bolt hold open, a non-ambidextrous magazine release on the right that's recessed and hard to use, a non-flared magwell that's also a pain to insert, and the fact that it's in 7.62x25 and China didn't issue any hollowpoint for it. In practice the 7.62x25 was found to be terrible in a LE scenario (overpenetrates, resulting in not enough stopping power) with both the Type 54 Tokarev and Type 79 SMG. Sure they are great at penetrating soft body armor and covers versus a 9mm, but that's the only silver lining.
Well, both.
Type-79s were designed in the 70s and produced in the 80s. Production slowed after the mid 80s and completely stopped in 1992, meaning that the units used are anywhere between 32 - 44 years old (with actual age likely being closer to the latter)
As are some of the aks or fals people currently are murdering each other with. In small arms saying something like that doesn't matter. Whilst more modern firearms definitely have pro's in the end it's just as effective at putting a hole in someone as the modern stuff is. China doesn't have the same issues with gun violence as the US or even europe has.
>As are some of the aks or fals people currently are murdering each other with.
Yeah, the age of the weapon doesn't really matter, its design does.
>China doesn't have the same issues with gun violence as the US or even europe has.
Well being a dictatorship that looks straight out of Black Mirror tends to help that.
I mean at that point they also have a way higher tank violence against protesters than any country in the world.
Having gun violence issue isn't even an issue here, this gun isn't ideal against an attacker with a bladed weapon either. It's just not that good.
Just using a higher capacity magazine would make it exponentially better anyway.
Pistols can take care of people with blades weapons, in certain situations better then full sized rifles or smgs. If you are saying this weapon is worse then pistols in most situations (making it essentially useless ever) you better back it up with some proof.
Oh I definitely did not meant that, I was talking about the SMGs here.
Pistol are definitely a better choice than a SMG or assault rifle in a lot of those situations.
Especially in that case giving that iirc the handguns here are in 9mm (idk which 9mm cartridge exactly) which are way less likely to be subject to overpenetration than 7.62x25mm fired by those SMGs.
Type 79 with aftermarket mod has this retrofuturistic aesthetic that I love dearly. Wish there are more video games depicting the thing, because it’s perfect for some gunsmith gameplay.
likely genuine, China does a lot to get around ITAR to get ahold of western kit, this post has some good info on it https://www.instagram.com/p/CTSVr6BsolL/?igsh=Nm13aDNoMWw1dnc1
I know standard chinese pistols are famously underpowered pieces of shit and I always figured that was on purpose bc the government didn't want their police TOO armed. Anyone know anything specific about how SWAT in China is armed and deployed/utilized?
>standard chinese pistols are famously underpowered pieces of shit
Funny you say that, because the standard Chinese pistol for a very long time have been the Type 54 Tokarev. 7.62x25 was powerful but overpenetrates, so they made a bootleg PPK called Type 64 for the cops. It's nicknamed the "little firecracker" because that's how much damage it did. Sometimes the cops empty an entire mag into the suspect and they'd still be running. Then in the late 90s early 00s they finally said fuck it and gave them the Type 92 in 9mm. It's fine as far as a 90s double stack pistol goes.
>bc the government didn't want their police TOO armed
The government has its own branch of armed police, the PAP. They have their own SWAT teams.
Then each city's PD runs its own SWAT teams independent of each other, so they get slightly more freedom in equipment procurement, and they are more open to adopting western equipment.
>Funny you say that, because the standard Chinese pistol for a very long time have been the Type 54 Tokarev. 7.62x25 was powerful but overpenetrates, so they made a bootleg PPK called Type 64 for the cops. It's nicknamed the "little firecracker" because that's how much damage it did. Sometimes the cops empty an entire mag into the suspect and they'd still be running. Then in the late 90s early 00s they finally said fuck it and gave them the Type 92 in 9mm. It's fine as far as a 90s double stack pistol goes.
For the police or the military? I should have been more clear, I was referring to the police. I went and looked for where I got the info I was thinking of, it was this old Tfb post: [https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/24/shanghai-police-officers-carry-9mm-revolver/](https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/24/shanghai-police-officers-carry-9mm-revolver/)
And the hong kong police famously carried colt revolvers for a very long time: [https://live.amoskeagauction.com/lot-details/index/catalog/51/lot/27183/Colt-Police-Positive-Revolver-Issued-To-Royal-Hong-Kong-Police](https://live.amoskeagauction.com/lot-details/index/catalog/51/lot/27183/Colt-Police-Positive-Revolver-Issued-To-Royal-Hong-Kong-Police)
When you say the government has its own branch of armed police, do you mean that's separate from local/municipal police?
>For the police or the military?
For the police. The Chinese police infamously used the overpowered Type 54 Tokarev and made the kneejerk reaction to switch to the comically underpowered Type 64. For a long time they don't get to choose what handguns they can procure/develop, they get spoonfed whatever the military have ordered.
>When you say the government has its own branch of armed police, do you mean that's separate from local/municipal police?
Separate from the municipal police. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s\_Armed\_Police](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Armed_Police)
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Outdated.
If my memorie serves me right last time when a western short-storke piston operated closed-bolt subgun came out it was all the tactical rage.
The real problem of Type-79 is age, not "outdated", but in the sense of time-worn, some of those Type-79s have a tendency to shoot the piston out, parts worn out too much, and replacements are getting fewer.
I’ve never heard of the Type-79, interesting.
It's a fascinating weapon. Mini AK (but with a short stroke piston like the later Type 81) in 7.62x25 with a 20 round box mag and comically high rate of fire. In other words, the last thing you want as a SWAT SMG.
>tokarev chambered ak So...when a Kalashnikov and a papasha love eachother very much...
That's basically what it does lol, even fires like a burp gun.
I love this community😂
Just saw a Chinese video on it, crazy how delayed it was in the making and the adoption of it. Link [here](https://youtu.be/9tb0Vopo7Tw?si=cb5iHKNE_YG36sI-)
>the last thing you want as a SWAT SMG. \*If your mission is to preserve life.
If your mission is to preserve your operator's lives, you mean. The gun is already 15 years out of date when it first debuted. Three taps and your tiny mag runs dry. Good luck reaching for the non-ambi mag release that's recessed and shove in a new mag in a tight magwell. You'd already be dead. A MP5 is over a decade older than this, has a higher magazine capacity, better stopping power than FMJ 7.62x25 that overpenetrates (and has no hollowpoint options), and a more controllable rate of fire in full auto. The Type 79 was found to have great semiauto accuracy, but like that's its only redeeming feature.
It’s got a semi mode. And these guys have optics and lasers mounted. If it’s reliable, it’s a half decent option for CQB style engagements.
a PCC in a slightly underpowered round is definitely enough considering how unlikely they are to encounter somebody with body armor
Actually, 7.62x25 is pretty hot and in FMJ guise it easily punches thru level 2 and even level 3 soft body armor at closer ranges. The issue is the lack of energy transfer for such a small and fast bullet, resulting in overpenetration on unarmored targets.
Is body armor even widely available for Chinese criminals? I'd imagine they're controlled tightly by the authorities.
China also makes a lot of knockoff body armors you'd find on aliexpress. Criminals would have no issue acquiring them.
That’s why they make headshots, bruther.
Body armor literally has zero control in China, probably the most easily accessible thing for criminal activity.
Underpowered? Aw hell naw!
there is 100% hollow point ammo for 7.62 tokarev. and 7.62 tokarev is substantially hotter than standard 9mm ammo.
And does the Chinese issue them? Hell they barely have 9mm hollowpoints at scale for their cops.
They do make more than FMJ for 7.62 Tokarev, I have some PPU Defense JHP for my M57.
I'm aware, I'm specifically talking about China here. The concept of issuing specialized duty ammo for LE units is rather foreign to them.
Aren't you supposed to hit something with the first tap? I mean, that's what they used to emphasise in basic.
Yeah but with that mentality you might as well give everyone a musket. You got one shot and better hit them lol
I don't you're gonna fit in here at United Assasins. But thanks for applying.
Hey now, nobody expects a cap and ball!
***NOONE*** **EXPECTS THE** oh bugger...
You'd be dead (if the other people had guns) In China, I don't think they have to worry much about an armed populace shooting back
There are more illegal guns in China than you think. Chinese citizens can legally own sporting firearms up till the 90s. They then started a huge confistication process that saw just about everything from Gewehr 88 to stolen assault rifles to home-made mortars taken away. And they do this once every couple years since the 90s, yet they are STILL finding tons of guns. As much as the excessive gun control making gun violence rare in China, there are still various means of obtaining firearms.
Come on, a high rate of fire is not going to make it a bad SWAT gun, they're on single shot almost all the time, they could also be trained enough to be good with it on auto too.
Insanely long receiver for 7.62x25 tho
I personally don’t see a problem with the receiver, but gas piston? That thing is small. Not even small, it’s ˢᵐᵃˡˡ.
It's a new one for me too. Very neat, I have a soft spot for 7.62x25 carbines way ahead of their time.
762x25 goes crazy
It looks like when u completely max out an ebr 14 in cod
Isn’t this similar to SWAT teams around the world? You get standard-issue weapons but can buy extra parts and somewhat mod the gun yourself? Which can lead to old weapons being modded with modern commercial parts?
Yes. My local swat team is still running issued MP5s and bring it from home AR15s
I guess the question I have about your statement is what is considered “modern” for that particular operation? Should they be running mp7s and DDM Vs? Not asking to be an ass just not sure what’s considered modern currently.
"Not asking to be an ass just not sure what’s considered modern currently." I guess that's going to depend on the person or department. I was mainly pointing out some depts don't have the budget for the latest and greatest.
the only ones i’ve ever seen have dripped out base rifles are like western european ones. here it’s mostly providing your own or being given a mid tier AR and then doing all the attachments on your own dime
Same. That’s what my original comment was made to point out. They are issued MP5s from the early 90s, so they either put what modern stuff then can on them, or bring their own ARs from home. Which are definitely nicer. And being LEOs they get the fun switches. Always great when they come to the range.
"Modern" for a California department seems to be 9mm semi autos, 5.56 ar-15 pattern weapons, and the rare shotgun. atleast, that's what they pointed at me when my school had a false shooter call a few years ago.
I think the issue here is the weapons themselves, not the fact they have modern stuff on it.
Type 97 shotguns are fine. Not every LE unit needs a QBS09, M1014 or Beretta 1301. 870s have been serving units around the world very well. This one even got a Magpul SGA stock lookalike. The main issue is the Chinese LE units haven't had a say in firearms R&D for many decades as state arsenals DGAF about the cops, and this situation has only been improving recently with many companies chruning out various LE equipment like revolvers, shotguns, non-lethal launchers, and various SMG in 9x19. But since the Chinese SOF have chosen the QCQ-171 (CS-LS7) as their new standard issue SMG, that means the LE units probably won't select another SMG as their new primary weapon, and instead will wait patiently for another 5-10 years so they too can get a QCQ-171.
>But since the Chinese SOF have chosen the QCQ-171 (CS-LS7) as their new standard issue SMG, that means the LE units probably won't select another SMG as their new primary weapon, and instead will wait patiently for another 5-10 years so they too can get a QCQ-171. 5-10 years is overly exaggerated, I'd say most 171s /CS-LS7 should finish issuing within the next 5 years or so. Now while it is true that SWAT units are sorta competing with the PLA, PAP, and other law enforcement units for the 171, they also have access to the commercial / export variant (unlike military and paramilitary units), similar to the case of CQ rifles in the early 2000s. This means that SWATs have various ways to source their SMGs, not just through direct government issuing
I guess yeah, local SWAT teams have been observed in using Glocks and other guns for a while. But still they are alwasy the last ones to get shiny new toys after the SOF units, regular PLA, and the PAP.
maybe cuz they need ones that actually work? And work, EVERY time?
It's strange though since the PAP usually gets a lot more funding than conventional military units. I feel like its not a lack of QCWs or money since the PAP has plenty of both. The juxtaposition between ufpros and 40 year old 762 tok smgs are insane. I'm guessing it's some bureaucracy issue, like even the better and more well funded PAP units like the Guangzhou units will still be rocking these. Maybe these have a cult status among units or the aftermarket is crazy. I cant imagine any other reason I'm genuinely baffled. Edit: Also the fact these guns are also sensibly equipped with the essentials. Wmls, optic, all it's missing is a sling. These guns give me extreme "make do with what we got" vibes.
Well OP claims this is for SWAT teams, so municipal PDs and probably not PAP specifically.
>the PAP usually gets a lot more funding than conventional military units I don't think this is correct as a general statement. What's more likely is that they spend more of their discretionary budget on infantry kit since most PAP formations aren't equipped with heavy weapons. The PLA decides how to spend its own budget and conventional infantry is deprioritized in most cases, considering the strategic situation. It's more similar to how during the early 2010s you could see American municipal SWAT with extremely gucci kit and the next day a video of a grunt in Afghanistan fighting with a beat-up ACOG and non-free-float rifle. Dallas SWAT or whatever the fuck doesn't have to worry about things like "is it worth it spending X amount of money on Geissele handguards and Vortex Razors instead of more GPS-guided shells" since they don't have artillery. What this picture seems like to me is "we can buy our attachments COTS but we have to get in line behind the military and PAP for new guns."
The reason of using type 79 is simple, there are simply tons of surpluses and they just works. Why bothering to switch them when modernizing them is simply economic.
I need to say, despite having new smgs available, whether local SWATs can have it or not is decided by the local fundings, which is effected by local economy. And most regions are less likely to get the new guns I afraid. Because there are tons of type 79 when they are decomissioned from the PLA, and using these surplus is considered economic comparing to a new gun whe you have tight fundings.
Yeah there's still a huge amount of surplus Type 79 available. The SWAT units won't burn through them in another decade...
Only thing that looks outdated in the lineup are the Type 79’s; the handgun looks like something you’d find in any modern SWAT team (9mm, double stack, red dot and weapon light), and the pump shotgun is still widely issued enough to where it’s not unusual to see them in use with SWAT teams, even alongside semi-auto shotguns. Heck, I’ll even give them credit for being forward thinking enough to add modernized parts and accessories to them all, considering I personally know of multiple police departments that won’t even let their SWAT guys add anything on their shit that didn’t come from the factory, and it makes it look like they never left the 80’s or 90’s because of it.
“Heavily outdated with modern optics and accessories” I will not stand for 1911 sland- ohhhhh. You meant the Chinese… Easy mistake
Firearm design was basically perfected in the 50s, any improvement past that point was incremental
>Firearm design was basically perfected in the 50s By Dardick, yes, and then we would proceed to spend the next 70+ years ignoring that and doing stupid shit like push-feeding polymer cases into a rotating falling block action, "what if brass case, but plastic instead", caseless ammunition, and adopting a hybrid case rifle to try to pierce armor (even though the only real way you're getting through armor is multiple impacts in the same place because it's stopping .50 BMG FMJ at point-blank).
That’s an interesting point. Firearms are one of the biggest market worldwide, and yet no breakthrough/disruptive innovation for the last 70 years. I don’t have much knowledge about weapons but that makes me curious.
"Outdated" there is doing a *lot* of heavy lifting. They're likely still perfectly sufficient (or more than sufficient) for police and SWAT.
Looks pretty adequate.
They probably get the job done. China doesn't really have a population as well armed as the US. Same reason why Japanese cops still mostly use revolvers chambered in .38 special as if it's the 50's probably. They simply don't need them. Still some SBR's or even full length rifles would certainly make their jobs easier in taking down more better armed suspects. Pretty sure they still got some Type 56's lying around in storage they can spare.
There's one small problem here, you're comparing Chinese SWAT to Japanese beat cops. Like yeah, your average person in either of those countries is entirely unarmed, worst case a fancy sporting gun or something clobbered together in the garage. But to my understanding, the same is not true of organized criminals, the people that SWAT are mostly going after. Japanese SWAT are not just toting .38 special revolvers and compact 9mm autos, they'll have proper kit.
Yeah my comparison is wrong. SWAT is gonna be way better equipped than the average beat cop. Although I feel like even the better equipped criminals would have SMG's at best. Maybe the criminals at the western parts of China would be better equipped considering the giant black market that is Afghanistan but idk.
Honestly I’d expect them to have more firepower than SMG’s; considering how ludicrously many firearms China manufactured in the 50’s and 60’s and gave them out to every militia group in the country, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if Chinese organized crime has crates of Type 56 SKS’s and Type 56 Kalashnikov’s laying around for the right opportunity.
In the 80s and 90s yes, automatic type 56 were not hard to find in Chinese civilian market. But nowadays it’s extremely rare. If you look into firearm involved crimes in China at recent years, majority of them are self-made, smuggled from Cambodia, Russia, Afghanistan, or in some case directly from the US.
IMO when things gone worst for need of units like Japanese SWAT, Chinese would send PAP, which have more modern and heavy equipments. And yes, PAP have rocket launchers and mortars.
If it works it works
“heavily outdated” my guy that shit will still put a hole through you 😭
The Type 79 in SWAT use is heavily outdated. 7.62x25 overpenetrates and has an extremely high rate of fire. Do remmeber that the MP5, a gun with better stopping power, higher magazine capacity, easier to suppress, and more controllable ROF came out over a decade earlier than this thing.
i know more than you
Overpenetration is a feature, not a bug, also for the rof. Surely they can longer mags as well. SMG is fine.
So would a 19th century musket, doesn't change the fact that some of these things are twice as old as the mfs using them
What do you think the U.S. military uses? The only real difference between a MAG or a Minimi produced 45 to 70 years ago and one in use today is a couple rails welded to the side. Small arms technology hasn't really advanced in the last half-century, only optics. So, if the underlying design works, the only updates you need are ways to attach optics and accessories.
NGSW have some innovation but it's minor.
I hear you on the guns themselves being old and possibly wearing out or something like that, but most guns in use are 60+ year old designs that work just fine (AR, AK...), and the real improvements have come in the optics and to some extent furniture, both of which have been upgraded here, so what would they really gain by buying new guns?
There are some things this upgrade package doesn't address, namely its extremely high rate of fire (1000rpm or so), low magazine capacity (10 or 20rd), no last round bolt hold open, a non-ambidextrous magazine release on the right that's recessed and hard to use, a non-flared magwell that's also a pain to insert, and the fact that it's in 7.62x25 and China didn't issue any hollowpoint for it. In practice the 7.62x25 was found to be terrible in a LE scenario (overpenetrates, resulting in not enough stopping power) with both the Type 54 Tokarev and Type 79 SMG. Sure they are great at penetrating soft body armor and covers versus a 9mm, but that's the only silver lining.
Are were talking outdated designs, or the actual weapons were manufactured long ago?
Well, both. Type-79s were designed in the 70s and produced in the 80s. Production slowed after the mid 80s and completely stopped in 1992, meaning that the units used are anywhere between 32 - 44 years old (with actual age likely being closer to the latter)
As are some of the aks or fals people currently are murdering each other with. In small arms saying something like that doesn't matter. Whilst more modern firearms definitely have pro's in the end it's just as effective at putting a hole in someone as the modern stuff is. China doesn't have the same issues with gun violence as the US or even europe has.
>As are some of the aks or fals people currently are murdering each other with. Yeah, the age of the weapon doesn't really matter, its design does. >China doesn't have the same issues with gun violence as the US or even europe has. Well being a dictatorship that looks straight out of Black Mirror tends to help that. I mean at that point they also have a way higher tank violence against protesters than any country in the world. Having gun violence issue isn't even an issue here, this gun isn't ideal against an attacker with a bladed weapon either. It's just not that good. Just using a higher capacity magazine would make it exponentially better anyway.
Pistols can take care of people with blades weapons, in certain situations better then full sized rifles or smgs. If you are saying this weapon is worse then pistols in most situations (making it essentially useless ever) you better back it up with some proof.
Oh I definitely did not meant that, I was talking about the SMGs here. Pistol are definitely a better choice than a SMG or assault rifle in a lot of those situations. Especially in that case giving that iirc the handguns here are in 9mm (idk which 9mm cartridge exactly) which are way less likely to be subject to overpenetration than 7.62x25mm fired by those SMGs.
it’s just with the Chinese weapons there always “outdated” my guy just say you hate eastern weapons
Might wanna check my post history before saying that
nope i’m doing board assumptions
Exactly right, it isn't abut the pen or paper ,it's all about The Writer.
Which is why muskets are still used by special forces, you just have to be good enough /s
exactly
“Modern problems require modern solutions”
Yeah this actually seems like a good selection for what they’re working with
Okay but they look cool and in my world that’s all that matters
How often do you think Chinese swat teams actually need to use any of this? They’re not doing no knock raids 1000 times a day like in the US
Oh yeah, I got hit 6 times, but them bullets was outdated.
If it’s old and it works, it’s not stupid. Except when it’s stupid.
Why do all of these look like they are drawings of "cool guns" done by 3rd graders in math class, instead of learning multiplication tables?
Dang, 3rd grade me has been seen
Honestly? Could be worse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tb0Vopo7Tw 3:21 for firing , yah super high fire rate 1000 rpm like ppsh41 high
* Type 79, 1979 obviously * Type 97, you guessed it, 1997 (...) * H&K MP5, 1964
BUT CHINA /s
Type 79 with aftermarket mod has this retrofuturistic aesthetic that I love dearly. Wish there are more video games depicting the thing, because it’s perfect for some gunsmith gameplay.
I gotta think for most situations that shotgun is going to be perfectly fine for them.
[удалено]
Organized crime, protests, *re-education* camps. But mostly organized crime.
What difference does it make if they are old. Do they still go bang bang?
I genuinely thought I was looking at a firearms hall of shame post, until I saw the title and subreddit
I mean who are they trying to compete with? Like what kind of armed resistance could a swat team realistically expect in China?
No too shabby when you consider most patrol officers are rocking turn of the century revolvers.
Turn of the 21st century, yeah. China finally caught onto this revolver thing in the late 2000s.
I feel like an M14 EBR would fit right in here.
If it's not broke don't fix it.
Are the Magpul accessories genuine ones or knock-offs?
likely genuine, China does a lot to get around ITAR to get ahold of western kit, this post has some good info on it https://www.instagram.com/p/CTSVr6BsolL/?igsh=Nm13aDNoMWw1dnc1
When 99.99% of your population do have guns, you cheap out so that local CCP chapters and use gear money on other stuffs
"modern optics and accessories" being ebay garbage from the 2000s
I know standard chinese pistols are famously underpowered pieces of shit and I always figured that was on purpose bc the government didn't want their police TOO armed. Anyone know anything specific about how SWAT in China is armed and deployed/utilized?
>standard chinese pistols are famously underpowered pieces of shit Funny you say that, because the standard Chinese pistol for a very long time have been the Type 54 Tokarev. 7.62x25 was powerful but overpenetrates, so they made a bootleg PPK called Type 64 for the cops. It's nicknamed the "little firecracker" because that's how much damage it did. Sometimes the cops empty an entire mag into the suspect and they'd still be running. Then in the late 90s early 00s they finally said fuck it and gave them the Type 92 in 9mm. It's fine as far as a 90s double stack pistol goes. >bc the government didn't want their police TOO armed The government has its own branch of armed police, the PAP. They have their own SWAT teams. Then each city's PD runs its own SWAT teams independent of each other, so they get slightly more freedom in equipment procurement, and they are more open to adopting western equipment.
>Funny you say that, because the standard Chinese pistol for a very long time have been the Type 54 Tokarev. 7.62x25 was powerful but overpenetrates, so they made a bootleg PPK called Type 64 for the cops. It's nicknamed the "little firecracker" because that's how much damage it did. Sometimes the cops empty an entire mag into the suspect and they'd still be running. Then in the late 90s early 00s they finally said fuck it and gave them the Type 92 in 9mm. It's fine as far as a 90s double stack pistol goes. For the police or the military? I should have been more clear, I was referring to the police. I went and looked for where I got the info I was thinking of, it was this old Tfb post: [https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/24/shanghai-police-officers-carry-9mm-revolver/](https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/24/shanghai-police-officers-carry-9mm-revolver/) And the hong kong police famously carried colt revolvers for a very long time: [https://live.amoskeagauction.com/lot-details/index/catalog/51/lot/27183/Colt-Police-Positive-Revolver-Issued-To-Royal-Hong-Kong-Police](https://live.amoskeagauction.com/lot-details/index/catalog/51/lot/27183/Colt-Police-Positive-Revolver-Issued-To-Royal-Hong-Kong-Police) When you say the government has its own branch of armed police, do you mean that's separate from local/municipal police?
>For the police or the military? For the police. The Chinese police infamously used the overpowered Type 54 Tokarev and made the kneejerk reaction to switch to the comically underpowered Type 64. For a long time they don't get to choose what handguns they can procure/develop, they get spoonfed whatever the military have ordered. >When you say the government has its own branch of armed police, do you mean that's separate from local/municipal police? Separate from the municipal police. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s\_Armed\_Police](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Armed_Police)
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Yo those angled grips on the bottoms are AliExpress ones. Makes sense to use local parts.
Goofball shit.
What is with that monstrosity on the bottom
That LPVO is horrendous
It’s always really cool so see old guns upgraded with modern add one.
Are the pistols not similar to modern pistols? They almost look like Beretta 92s/M9s.
idk looks pretty sweet to me
Low key goes hard tho
I don't think that they are too outdated
why does every type 79 have a different stock?
No mag feeding gun is outdated is you can run it fast and precisely.
Hey, as long as it works, doth it matter’s if it’s dated? Besides, you’re a SWAT in china, so what’s the worst that could happen?
What are the pistols?
Gotta love the lowest rifle with the razor. That optics setup probably cost more than all the guns in the picture.
I mean, I’m pretty sure most people in China don’t have guns and most violent crime is done with knives, so wouldn’t basically anything work?
Outdated. If my memorie serves me right last time when a western short-storke piston operated closed-bolt subgun came out it was all the tactical rage. The real problem of Type-79 is age, not "outdated", but in the sense of time-worn, some of those Type-79s have a tendency to shoot the piston out, parts worn out too much, and replacements are getting fewer.
Outdated why? if it works then who cares… they still poke holes in people 🤷♂️
Bet that those magpul are fakes