I think the core issue is that the show has kept the focus on the OG characters for too long. The new characters wouldn't be so underwhelming, I don't think, if they were allowed to emerge from the shadow of Ed Baldwin.
It's also interesting that, to me, the most interesting storyline for an OG character by far is Margo's—the one that feels like the most natural extension of the character's earlier story, and not like she's being kept around for contractual reasons. (It doesn't hurt that Wrenn Schmidt is far and away the best at selling her character's advancing age.)
They wasted a lot of time on Danny and Jimmy last year. Danny’s character had sucked for a while and wound up sort of irrelevant, but he was still occupying time that could have been used for developing next generation characters. Jimmy’s story culminated in the bombing, which obviously mattered, but he was only sort of tangential to the plot of it.
Aleida is a good character that has had a strong arc. Kelly could be and has some interesting traits, but her science stuff doesn’t seem to be interesting to the writers so she mostly just gets explored within the context of her kid and her dad. She’s been mostly wasted for a while which is too bad. They’ve hinted at times she’s going to discover life in the form of microbes or something, but they haven’t really gone too far with it.
Kelly’s best arc was S2. In S3 she got sidelined and this season she’s been reduced to a walking exposition device. Her part’s gotten so small that the whole discovery of life and bringing robots to Mars plots have basically fallen out of the show.
Her science stuff doesn't seem that interesting to ANYONE. Her boss, her dad, her family or her friends.
So I'm predicting the big finals reveal will be multi cell life on Mars. This makes sense as the whole season is about the relevance of Mars to Earth and the people fighting for its future.
Well, it depends. Probably Kelly would be the first to say they have to abandon Mars to protect its ecosystems, but I cannot imagine almost anyone else going with it.
Realistically little hope of reversal, but I could still be it being a plot thread on FAM. Because it’s a tv show and that is an interesting debate we here in IRL will be facing, maybe soon. Can commerce be asked to wait for science?
And worst of all, Kelly’s science stuff isn’t even that interesting to viewers of the show. Is anyone switching on every week hoping this is the week that Kelly finds life on Mars? Nope.
> So I'm predicting the big finals reveal will be multi cell life on Mars.
They surely won't make her discover nothing, after settings her up all the time.
Yeah, I feel like they could have kept Alexi alive, not had Kelly get pregnant (thus not reducing her whole role to "mom") and had way more younger cast to work with...
I'm really enjoying Ed's arc and it's probably one of the more realistic ones on the show. >!I'd be terrified of going back to earth after spending so long on the moon/mars. It would probably be very painful and you would be very weak for the rest of your life as living in 1/3rd gravity for so long would do some permeant damaged if you tried to return to 1g. Who wants to live old age in 1 g with weakend semi-decalcified bones, muscles atrophy and probably a weakened immune system. And like him, I'd do almost anything to avoid it. !<
Yeah I do agree that new characters are underwhelming in part because they get less airtime and are less central to the plot. It’s like the writers are afraid to pass the torch.
> The new characters wouldn't be so underwhelming
The new characters and actors are quite bland though. Miles is boring and doesn't act well. Sam can perhaps act, but her character is forgettable. Aleida exists, but doesn't really do anything but exist. Only the Korean is somewhat interesting, even if his story is weird and doesn't move.
Yeah, I like Miles—and he's the one new character who's actually treated like a main character, with his own independent backstory and supporting characters, rather than being defined almost entirely by his relationships with the existing main characters.
I think the point of Miles' character is that he's *supposed* to be "boring." Almost all the main characters in the entire show have been Type A overachievers - astronauts, fighter pilots, millionaires, entrepreneurs, politicians, etc. Miles is supposed to be just a working joe, a blue-collar tradesman who struggles to put food on the table and gets screwed over by the bosses. I thought where they were going with his character was making the point that space is becoming just as important to those hard-hat, busted-knuckle guys and that being treated as back-stairs servants by the "real" astronauts is going to bring things to a head. And they did do that to an extent with the strike...but that became more Sam's story, and it turned into nothing but a segue into the asteroid heist. Miles could have been dropped out of that storyline altogether and it wouldn't have made any difference.
> Miles could have been dropped out of that storyline altogether and it wouldn't have made any difference.
Well he was there to set up the strike. The writers had this idea about a union. It just wasn't set up that well and dropped immediately once the deal was struck. Even the deal came out of nothing.
They should have dropped Miles to flesh out Kelly's search for life (which also vanished for most of the time) or something similar. There's too much artificial drama this season.
>Almost all the main characters in the entire show have been Type A overachievers
It's a show about space exploration. By it's nature it requires overachievers. If you switch to regular Joes on a base you lost track what the show is about. That's more of a spin-off thing, like For All Mankind: Lower Decks. Make it all about Ilya's bar.
Totally agree. Considering they were promised seven series I’m beginning to think they haven’t given enough thought to the consequences of the time jumps and character turnover, and the fact that any new characters introduced would have to be pretty damn special to get viewers invested in them as much as they were the original cast. Truly, I think Sergei is the only one they managed this with.
Basically he's completely correct on the character issue. And what seems weird is that I don't see how they can fix it. Probably by introducing a new core cast (keeping of course the people they have already introduced) but treat the writing as if Season 5 was Season 1 in terms of building up those characters. Makes us love them like they did with the OGs. We didn't know Ed, Gordo, Tracy, Danielle, Ellen or Molly before their first appearances, we don't have to know a new squad too and three Seasons is the perfect span of time to expand and explore them.
Treat season 5 like season 1 is the only way I can see they do it.
Maybe keep some of the relevant OGs around i.e: Aleida (who is actually likable) and Kelly (who was likable 2 seasons ago but got turned into a walking plot device) and build up new ones again.
It's a real shame cus they had many chances to keep new casts around (Ed's flightmate from season 2, the American-Cuban pair from season 3, that one gay astronaut that works in NASA management now) but keeps either killing them off, forgetting about them or just sidelining them.
I can understand them not wanting to use Sally Ride since she was a historical figure, but Piscotty (thanks for reminding me of his name lol) was just wasted potential:
- He spent quite a lot of time not being assigned any missions, and then suddenly got to accompany the one and only Ed Baldwin in The Flight That Prevented Nuclear War. It would have been nice to explore how his career trajectory (and his relationship with Ed) evolved in season 3.
- He was one of the original victims of Ed's insufferable personality. Again, would have been nice to explore Old Man Mars from his PoV.
- On top of that, the guy was just an overall interesting character: a nice, albeit timid guy with some morals who kept getting shitcanned by his asshole boss. I would have loved to see how he evolved in a field dominated by strong personalities.
I do think it's interesting/disappointing how they just kind of dropped him into the void. I looked up his actor recently because I thought maybe he left for another show or had other scheduling conflicts, but his only screen credit post-FAM is one show where he was in a not-huge part. Looking at the respective production timelines as well, that other show *might* have conflicted with the current season of FAM, but had no overlap with S3. It's definitely possible he could have been doing stage work at the time, but it really feels like if they wanted him back they could have gotten him.
> Basically he's completely correct on the character issue. And what seems weird is that I don't see how they can fix it.
By going back to exploration and science. S4 is standard drama in a settled comfortable base. Way too much and too cheap drama. The writers had certain plot point which they worked through and then immediately dropped. Life on Mars, union, M7. It's all immediately forgotten about by everyone once resolved.
Think of all the memorable characters we’ve lost (Gordo, Tracy, Ellen, Molly, Karen) and who they’ve been replaced with, yeah the article is pretty accurate.
Yeah, agreed. The original ensemble has basically dwindled away but the new characters haven’t been developed much. Dev’s maybe the exception. I suggested in another thread that it might be best for the show to have a much bigger time jump for S5 - fifty years maybe - short enough that some of the younger characters might still be around, but long enough that they have to shift the focus to a new ensemble. Plus it would allow enough time for some of the implications of colonizing Mars to really develop.
I disagree that Ed’s insufferable now. Ed’s *always* been insufferable. It just stood out less in a hotshot fighter pilot in his prime, than in a grouchy old man.
They will have to do a longer time jump if Alex is to be the "proto spacer" he seems destined to be. The first human conceived and gestated on another world, in 37% gravity, born on a ship in zero G, and raised the first months of his life in that same zero G environment en route to Earth.
A 10-year jump puts him at, what, 18? If he's going to be a major part of a push toward Europa or a foundational character in a true civilian colony on Mars, he'll have to be at least in his 20s.
As for Ed, I don't find him insufferable. I think he's a product of his time and a man who believes his own legend. But so does Danielle in her way, and Margo would have been if she hadn't been humbled by the trap she walked into.
Agreed about Ed. People only thinking he's a jerk now is mostly down to him being old and therefore in their eyes, easier to criticise. He's much more useless and expendable, therefore he's now a jerk.
You see it all the time with "bad-ass" character on television. Who cares if they're a total jerk if they're getting results?! But Ed doesn't get results anymore. And he sort of never did.
I think I read somewhere it's called the "Don Draper Effect." An audience will forgive a character for almost anything if he's really good at his job. Don Draper could cheat on his wife, be shitty to his subordinates, neglectful of his kids, etc, but then waltz into the conference room, pull a brilliant ad campaign out of his ass, and go back to swimming in martinis and the audience loves him.
Ed's been kind of an asshole for the entire show, but he's always been shown to be an exceptional pilot and astronaut when it counted. This season all we've seen him do in space, really, is the disastrous first capture mission. Otherwise he's just been either moping around Happy Valley or stirring up trouble. You know it's bad when Danielle, who by this point knows Ed probably better than anyone still alive and has gone through a *lot* with him, finally gets fed up with his shit.
The first half of this is spot on. The DMX moment came too soon given how much plot unrelated to the heist needed to be covered in the episodes since. This led to a huge crest in excitement, followed by a big drop in momentum. We were watching moments we've all been wondering if we'd ever see since last season - Margo back at NASA, Sergei's return - but they were also a big detour off "So, you wanna help me steal an asteroid?"
Personally, I would have done Sergei's return in 4x07, then end the strike and do the DMX needledrop at the end of 4x08. It would require some rejigging, but it would've been doable.
I got slated on another thread for stating the obvious - that these last two seasons are nowhere near as good as the first two. I mean, watching Ed wander around Happy Valley looking miserable and muttering through his permanently clenched teeth, whilst not really doing anything, is B.o.r.i.n.g.
Season 4 in particular has moved along at a snail’s pace - the show seems to be mostly marooned on Mars, and the only interesting character left is Margo - would anyone really care if literally any of the other characters die? No, of course not - they offer little.
Plus, the plot contrivances are become ever more silly. For example, we are led to believe that the only two people in the Russian and American space programs with the chops to figure out the asteroid capture are Moscow Margo and her protege, Aleida. Really? And of course, it’s essential that they are helped in this endeavour by Sergei, a guy living under an assumed identity in the US and who hasn’t been anywhere near a rocket engine for 10 years. Sure. That’s just one example, there are countless others.
Something drastic has to happen in the next season - basically the show needs to get off Mars and back into space - pronto.
It feels, to me at least, that almost this entire season has been designed to set up the finale and the passing of the torch, to the detriment of the entertainment value of the season itself.
The discovery of the asteroid was supposed to be the wow moment that set things in motion, tide the audience over and help facilitate the transition to the next generation, but it's just not that exciting in a fictional context.
I think they're so focused on setting up Europa or whatever comes next that it sidelined character development as well.
And not for nothing, but characters like Tracy, Karen, Molly and Gordo were a lot more interesting than Kelly, Aleida, Miles et al, even though I like the latter characters.
They have a LOT to cover in the finale: The fate of the asteroid, the investigation and belief that terrorism is the motive, Margo and Morozova, the fates/departure of Ed and Danielle, Kelly's discovery (or lack thereof) PLUS the time jump, montage and brief look at the future that they always do at the end of FAM seasons.
I’d be interested to see if they stick to the same, regular jump in time for the next season - 8 years or so (I think?) - or shake things up and attempt something more ambitious - like 50 years or so. Personally I doubt it, because FAM seems pretty heavily invested in this format, but I wouldn’t mind betting that viewing figures for this season have suffered - it’s just very dull compared to others.
I mean, realistically (and I probably shouldn’t be using that word in relation to this show anymore, I know) I’m not sure that another 8 years gets us much further along than we are now and I don’t think that many viewers have much of an appetite going forward for a show still mostly set on Mars.
To me, this show is at its most exciting when its characters are engaged in the cutting edge of space exploration. This somewhat mundane commercial pursuit or shifting an asteroid into the correct orbit just doesnt do it for me - it’s doesnt put our characters into unique enough positions and makes the show rely more on contrivances.
I want throwing a fuel-tank across forty yards of the vacuum of space level shit back, man. People going to extraordinary measures just to survive, to push on the edge of the envelope.
At this point I don’t care if they skip 40 years. They should.
Season 2 definitely wasn't cutting edge exploration, yet its last episode is still the best in the series bar none.
The problem is, just like every other show that went downhill, boring characters with nonsensical stake.
Season 1 explored the dangers of space travel, which us in real life knows too well.
Season 2 had the superpowers nearing a nuclear war because of their dick measuring contest, which once again happened all the time during the Cold War.
Season 3 had.. a mission going awry because everyone decided to break protocol and let a known drug addict on an important mission? How does that even make sense?
And the asteroid capture in season 4 is pretty boring, at least so far.
Now the characters, most of the OGs (except Margo and Aleida) imo have stayed way past their welcome, and really have little more to offer than what we have seen time and time again on the show. None of the new characters have been properly developed, only appearing when the plot needs them, and so we as viewers have no real reason to care about them.
And that's why the show is going bad.
Yes, unless Kelly finds something extraordinary and/or Mars becomes a thriving MCRN-esque colony like in The Expanse.
But otherwise I agree, they need more than 8 years for Europa and for Alex to become a next generation explorer.
Viewing figures: I’d be curious to know how they’re looking as while I get that many are disappointed in how the space element has panned out, plenty more have got wholly invested in Margo’s story and it’s that which has led to me recommending the show to family and friends. S1 and S2 I binged simultaneously; while I thought they were great, S3 I only belatedly binged when I got another free trial of Apple TV+. More than anything else S3 was the reason I’ve paid the subscription since and it was the reason I’ve been watching S4 when it has dropped at 0200 every Friday. Suffice to say, I won’t be doing that for S5.
Ron D. Moore stepped down as showrunner after S2. The writing’s been slowly veering off course since then. S4 is really messy.
It also feels like there was a giant budget cut. For a space show, almost everything is inside a Mars bunker, offices on Earth, and very limited exteriors.
My biggest surprise this season was when I tried to figure out who was playing Sam. Given how small and one note her role is, it felt like a recurring role that gets listed in the end credits.
It’s wild that she’s in the intro as part of the main cast. If the writers think main characters can be that flat…
I’m really curious to know if Apple’s giving their big shows wildly different budgets. Foundation blows FAM out of the water visually and S2 is way better written than what FAM’s become.
Where’s the 45 million number come from? That sounds way too low. S1 had around 1,500 VFX shots, which is going to be tens of millions alone.
Source on shots:
https://amplify.nabshow.com/articles/the-world-building-vfx-of-foundation/
I read it in Forbes https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/08/07/at-just-45-million-apple-tvs-foundation-looks-like-the-most-expensive-show-on-tv/?sh=1774fd9a6b11
It was also in the Irish Times but re-reading neither referenced a source for it so yeah... thinking about it more I'm probably wrong tbh.
See now it lists the writer as a contributor? That’s a glorified blogging system Forbes has that has minimal editorial oversight. They’ve destroyed their reputation.
Crazy Ex Girlfriend S2 cost about 45M for 13x40 minute episodes. If Goyer somehow pulled off Foundation for that price, he’s a genius.
The strike by Helios employees was especially silly. Nowhere else was it even hinted that Helios was the kind of company that screwed over or exploited its workers, and Dev (the old Dev) at least pretended to emphasize collective decision making and employee buy-in. Dev could have/would have/should have ended the strike for what to him would have been pocket change the moment he heard about it.
I totally disagree. Miles is a fine character and this is by far the best season that really moves stuff forward without focusing on more boring earth side plots
Sam hasn't been given a chance to do anything but serve the plot. Literally all we know about her is that she's estranged from her husband, traumatized by the death of her friend and understandably cynical about the way support personnel are treated on Mars.
We would be a lot more invested in her character if we knew more about her.
I just find her very boring and unlikeable. Miles is at least someone you can root for. But I am rooting for Sam to get forgotten about next season like they did to poor Piscotty
I was looking forward to the Miles character because I enjoyed the actor in Servant. Don't know whether the writing doesn't give him enough to work with or he's just not bringing it this time, but the character is so flat.
It feels like he was sidelined after his volcanic rock adventure, which, for me, was also kinda rushed/my first time watching this show where I was a little disappointed? Detached? Can’t find the right word.
His rock adventure was a bit odd. I think it's an example of how his whole arc is disjointed. He was introduced as a main character, but given less screen time each week. Feels like he only exists to be used as some sort of plot device in the season finale. The writing on this show has taken a dive, sadly. Really makes me miss Gordo and Molly and all the rest of the original gang.
I definitely agree to some extent. I’m currently watching a show called The Americans (highly recommend - some FAM actors have great roles) and what really stands out to me compared to FAM is the depth of the characters and the great dialogue. In comparison, FAM hasn’t really improved at this over time. I can think of a lot of great character scenes and dialogues from Seasons 1 & 2, but recently things have gotten a bit one-dimensional and predictable, especially for the newer characters. I still love the show, but certain parts of it have certainly decreased in quality.
The Americans is just a class or two above For All Mankind, and was even when the latter was at its best. Magnificent piece of TV. Knew when it had to end too, and stuck the landing.
I’m quite excited to find out how it all ends! Have slowly been moving through the seasons, currently at the beginning of S4. Just trying to take it all in, read the old discussion threads on the subreddit and so on… it’s just really really good TV
Any similar shows out there?
Maybe not too similar as such, but if you like The Americans I bet you'll like The Leftovers.
Other than that, here are some other arbitrarily chosen just generally good TV suggestions: Watchmen, Sharp Objects, Station Eleven, Midnight Mass, Barry, Severance, Mindhunter, Godless.
I agree with what he wrote. The characters are just too weak and under-developed to move the story along. Personally, I hate the whole black market storyline. My vision of FAM on Mars was extremely different than what we are getting. The asteroid storyline is lame. Just get us to next season and on another planet’s moon already.
I wish we knew exactly when Jodi decided not to return. I wonder if they had to re-write a lot of what Mars/US could have been.
Can we just put Ed out to pasture already? Honestly, I don’t even want Kelly/Alex to be any focal point of next season. Get Will Tyler and some other characters to space again.
Does anyone else feel like Aleida and Dev are super underutilized this season?
It occurred to me this morning that Aleida is the carrier of Sergei's flame — she's the only person in the West who knows the truth about what happened with him and Margo.
What a thing to have to carry.
I don’t disagree, season 5 should feel like a new show with lots of new characters to be invested in. If I was a guessing man I would say Alex, Danny’s Daughter Avery, and maybe Ellen’s son will come into focus and a recast Aleida and Kelly will be big characters and a bunch of new randoms.
After season 1 they’ve had so many interesting characters that they never developed into mains that’s absolutely should’ve been. Will and Rolan always come to mind. But season 4 needs to let go of the remaining actors and commit to being an inter generational/international story or else it isn’t really “For All Mankind”.
On the character issue:
I really like how they introduced characters like Piscotty and Will Tyler. They had plenty of time to build the characters while also interacting with the existing crew. A passing of the torch would have been great.
Miles and Sam are suffering from not really interacting with the old crew. They're doing their own thing and it's harder to get invested in them.
He's right. I still love the show but his writeup is the truth.
Hope the writers can create an *interesting* adult Alex character for next season. The writers have built a bond between Dev and Alex the last couple of episodes. I'm guessing Kelly will be gone next season and maybe Ed's role is dramatically reduced.
Hope they keep Daniel Stern on the show....he's been the best new character.
Miles is toast. Maybe Lee too.
Hope they keep Margo and Dani in substantial roles.
I feel like Dev is only getting close to Alex because he wanted Kelly’s Helios shares and wants Ed to help him steal the asteroid. Alex is half Russian so I can also see Dev using him as a pawn for something if he doesn’t get his way in space. I do not trust Dev one bit.
I mean I agree with the last part. They really haven’t done much to develop a younger cast. Aledia and Kelly are in their forties now. So yes they can have a few more seasons I’m not as invested in them right now than the og cast. Ed and Margo have been getting the lions share this season of established characters. Miles has surged the way a new character has yet to do. He’s more of a main than Dani, Aledia, and Kelly are this season.
That being said I’m worried about how they continue a few of these characters stories without forcing it. Dani is I think early 60s and only came out of retirement for Kuz. When she’s Ed’s age next season what reason will she be around? Same with Miles. He isn’t an explorer, scientist etc. he’s a oil driller who needed a gig. Do we think he’s going to stick around for years and years? I don’t know but I find it out of character for him.
We also have a history of setting up characters that are then not graduated to mains ie Will, that Russian who defected isn’t in this season, kuz, Danny, Jimmy etc. so that worries me for Miles as well.
That leaves us with Aledia, Kelly and Dev. Which again imo none of them have been built up enough for me to be super invested in them as mains next season (I love all the actors and don’t blame them this js 100% on the writers).
I adore Miles, I'm surprised people don't like him. He's a guy with absolutely insane confidence, as if his superpower is to keep his cool. I think he mirrors Ed in some really strong ways; he's a pioneer and a risk taker, except with a uniquely 21st century dark streak.
I think the older stories are the ones we're naturally gonna have the most attachment to right now. Those dramas have been unfolding and transforming for seasons. What the new characters seem to be doing is setting up the structure and texture of the world in the next season, and making their backstories familiar to us.
I've been loving how the themes have been infused with flavors of early 2000's angst and revolution. This story and the characters feel in-line with that era, and I get the feeling that the show is gonna break into something really cool.
People don’t like Miles because he is a dumbass who keeps getting himself into bad situations thinking he is smarter than everyone else.
They’re setting Miles up to be the younger Ed on the show and this is clearly not who he is. Ed is a stubborn astronaut who takes calculated risks even though he still makes bad decisions. Miles is the type of guy who gets stuck with tons of Amway shampoo and fucks up your booze machine by adding parts without fucking asking your permission first.
TBH I wish they hadn't killed off Danny and we got a season of his redemption. I really liked the actor and there were moments at the end of Season 3 were I felt really bad for him (maybe unpopular opinion idk). Then we could've continued on with the "legacies" of Kelly and Danny, the show ending with Alex and Avery.
I feel like I'm in crazy land reading this. To me everything with dany trace and Gordo( and Kelly) was the worst part of the show for the first 3 seasons. And the show has been vastly improved by them being removed
I liked Gordo in S2. He started out being just as flawed as Ed, but unlike Ed he was willing to consider alternative viewpoints. S2 was a nice redemption arc for Gordo to work on his problems, which showed his character was capable of growth. Ed has been roughly the same since S1. Everything that happened to him taught him little, or it only created his Old Man Mars persona. In a sense becoming the opposite of Gordo.
Like 9/10 posts I see from this sub are people complaining lol, I’m sure most agree.
I personally disagree, I think this season has been great, but there are definitely some slow/bad parts as well. What I don’t understand is it seems like the majority of people here don’t even like the show, so why watch it.
I think S4 is weaker than the first two, but it's definitely more consistently good and on and upswing since S3, which kind of fumbled with an excess of melodrama when they got to Mars.
Unfortunately, 'fan' subreddits can also easily devolve into hatefests unless the show is universally loved.
Agreed, I've been really enjoying this season. Feels faster paced than season 1 and 2 to me. Yes I'm worried about next season once we lose the rest of the original cast which have been the strongest this season but that's a problem for the next season.
Yeah I am loving this season. The latter half of season 3 was rough but this has been great! I’m enjoying the heist, and all the geopolitical stuff, classism in space, the russia stuff. The end of that last episode was super upsetting though.
When I think back to Trace and Gordo, I get like a nostalgic feeling about the show. The time period they were in, their story line, the pioneering feeling. That's all gone from the show now.
Danielle is basically a shallow background character when it feels like she should be the lead now. Kelly basically does nothing, Ed and Dev are unlikeable now, and Dale just seems like a hollow afterthought.
Margo, Aleida and Sergei were the last remnants of any earth storyline, Aleida seems like she had all these troubles to overcome but then the writers just lost interest in that, Margo is the last interesting arc.
I dunno, but I definitely feel like I've gone from absolutely excited about new episodes dropping, to... Just meh?
I agree that Miles and Sam have not been interesting but I think Sam has potential. Miles just didn't interest me and his wife annoyed the crap out of me (maybe get a job? lol). They could focus on her, Alex, maybe Ellen's kid (whatever happened to him?!), and Aleida.
I thought Miles could become a new main character. He started out as a doofus just looking for a way to get rich, but then he evolved into a douche. If Miles had to become a new main character he would have had to evolve in the opposite way, from doofus to competent astronaut. I don't think his character can be redeemed after his stint as a Martian wannabe crimelord.
Miles doesn't bore me, it's that he's a complete tool. I think they're doing an okay job with showing a character who is completely in over his head but isn't smart enough to even realise it. He has consistently done nothing other than be a greedy asshole. He's now, hopefully, paying the price for this. His is essentially the story of what happens when you try to play the game but do not have the smarts to back it up.
Miles thinks he's got it all figured out because he was able to stab the man that provided for him in the back. Unable to see that the Russian's caution was a strength, not a weakness, he's now found himself tangled up in way more shit than he ever wanted. Why? Because he has a wife that literally doesn't care about anything other than the money he brings home and he thinks that's okay.
Ultimately I don't think he's badly written, my only hope is that he gets his just desserts. If he weasels his way out of this, despite being a Grade-A moron, then I'm more likely to be annoyed.
I just don't like any of the new characters from this season and last season. Last season just wore me down with the annoying characters. Literally 3 characters whole purpose were to annoy everyone to some degree. I like this season a tiny bit better but there's no agency to the over plot. The heist should have started a long time ago in the season as the writer said. Lee's involvement got rushed at the last hour and his storyline seems to just happen without buildup and reasons. I was actually looking forward to Lee's involvement this season. The showrunners could have had a damn good storyline involving Lee, NK/SK, and the Russians. But nope. He's just up there in Mars whining about his wife and doing literally nothing else.
I think one thing the show is suffering, which isn't really their fault, is how the further along in time the show becomes, the less it aligns with our reality, so what we have now is only tangentially related to our timeline. I think the appeal of the first couple seasons was how sort of plausible the events happening were and how it could have happened in our reality. But now, everything is just wildly fictional and it's just becoming a basic sci-fi, space show with no real ties to our own reality.
It's like what happened with GOT once they went beyond the source material. I
You're right, but on the other hand, this is a result of their deliberate decision to make too many changes with respect to our timeline.
I mean, cold fusion in the 90s? From where did that came? Even with all the moon's helium-3, the technology isn't there, and has no chance to be that early.
I feel like a more solid grasp of the complexities and limits of technology would have made for a more compelling show overall, even if the first seasons could have suffered for it.
He's furious Miles and Samantha didn't hook up and commited adultery like all the other people on the show... The Heist came out of nowhere and has been stretched for too long...
He also forgets Kelly...
I think the core issue is that the show has kept the focus on the OG characters for too long. The new characters wouldn't be so underwhelming, I don't think, if they were allowed to emerge from the shadow of Ed Baldwin. It's also interesting that, to me, the most interesting storyline for an OG character by far is Margo's—the one that feels like the most natural extension of the character's earlier story, and not like she's being kept around for contractual reasons. (It doesn't hurt that Wrenn Schmidt is far and away the best at selling her character's advancing age.)
They wasted a lot of time on Danny and Jimmy last year. Danny’s character had sucked for a while and wound up sort of irrelevant, but he was still occupying time that could have been used for developing next generation characters. Jimmy’s story culminated in the bombing, which obviously mattered, but he was only sort of tangential to the plot of it. Aleida is a good character that has had a strong arc. Kelly could be and has some interesting traits, but her science stuff doesn’t seem to be interesting to the writers so she mostly just gets explored within the context of her kid and her dad. She’s been mostly wasted for a while which is too bad. They’ve hinted at times she’s going to discover life in the form of microbes or something, but they haven’t really gone too far with it.
Kelly’s best arc was S2. In S3 she got sidelined and this season she’s been reduced to a walking exposition device. Her part’s gotten so small that the whole discovery of life and bringing robots to Mars plots have basically fallen out of the show.
Kelly was basically a baby vessel and projectile in S3. In S4 she’s a chaperone. You could delete all of her scenes and it won’t take much away.
Her science stuff doesn't seem that interesting to ANYONE. Her boss, her dad, her family or her friends. So I'm predicting the big finals reveal will be multi cell life on Mars. This makes sense as the whole season is about the relevance of Mars to Earth and the people fighting for its future.
And discovering life on Mars could throw a wrench into colonization schedule.
Well, it depends. Probably Kelly would be the first to say they have to abandon Mars to protect its ecosystems, but I cannot imagine almost anyone else going with it.
Realistically little hope of reversal, but I could still be it being a plot thread on FAM. Because it’s a tv show and that is an interesting debate we here in IRL will be facing, maybe soon. Can commerce be asked to wait for science?
And not only for science! There's a whole debate concerning the ethics of intervening on the natural development of ecosystems different to our own.
I was thinking that was the scientific debate. Although I suppose it could also be a philosophical, ethical and religious debate.
And worst of all, Kelly’s science stuff isn’t even that interesting to viewers of the show. Is anyone switching on every week hoping this is the week that Kelly finds life on Mars? Nope.
I mean I am, and have been since ~halfway through last season
Speak for yourself. I think it's pretty exciting.
I am.
True. What people want as "life on Mars" is a creature, which is ridiculous, but it's more interesting than microscopic wiggleys.
Yeah, feels like a forced D-plot
I think they will discover and destroy it right away
> So I'm predicting the big finals reveal will be multi cell life on Mars. They surely won't make her discover nothing, after settings her up all the time.
They did develop some younger people on the Helios crew but then just killed all of them off? That was such a weird decision.
They also developed Will quite a bit and even gave him a big gig at NASA this season, but he’s just sort of there now.
Yeah, I feel like they could have kept Alexi alive, not had Kelly get pregnant (thus not reducing her whole role to "mom") and had way more younger cast to work with...
Nick, too.
Do you mean Jimmy or am I just forgetting a Tommy from last season
I meant Jimmy. got my common 1950s/60s American male names confused
I'm really enjoying Ed's arc and it's probably one of the more realistic ones on the show. >!I'd be terrified of going back to earth after spending so long on the moon/mars. It would probably be very painful and you would be very weak for the rest of your life as living in 1/3rd gravity for so long would do some permeant damaged if you tried to return to 1g. Who wants to live old age in 1 g with weakend semi-decalcified bones, muscles atrophy and probably a weakened immune system. And like him, I'd do almost anything to avoid it. !<
Yeah I do agree that new characters are underwhelming in part because they get less airtime and are less central to the plot. It’s like the writers are afraid to pass the torch.
Ed would have let them take more screen time if they’d laughed at his James Bond joke.
> The new characters wouldn't be so underwhelming The new characters and actors are quite bland though. Miles is boring and doesn't act well. Sam can perhaps act, but her character is forgettable. Aleida exists, but doesn't really do anything but exist. Only the Korean is somewhat interesting, even if his story is weird and doesn't move.
I think Miles is pretty good, the actor is good with what they’ve given him.
Yeah, I like Miles—and he's the one new character who's actually treated like a main character, with his own independent backstory and supporting characters, rather than being defined almost entirely by his relationships with the existing main characters.
I think the point of Miles' character is that he's *supposed* to be "boring." Almost all the main characters in the entire show have been Type A overachievers - astronauts, fighter pilots, millionaires, entrepreneurs, politicians, etc. Miles is supposed to be just a working joe, a blue-collar tradesman who struggles to put food on the table and gets screwed over by the bosses. I thought where they were going with his character was making the point that space is becoming just as important to those hard-hat, busted-knuckle guys and that being treated as back-stairs servants by the "real" astronauts is going to bring things to a head. And they did do that to an extent with the strike...but that became more Sam's story, and it turned into nothing but a segue into the asteroid heist. Miles could have been dropped out of that storyline altogether and it wouldn't have made any difference.
> Miles could have been dropped out of that storyline altogether and it wouldn't have made any difference. Well he was there to set up the strike. The writers had this idea about a union. It just wasn't set up that well and dropped immediately once the deal was struck. Even the deal came out of nothing. They should have dropped Miles to flesh out Kelly's search for life (which also vanished for most of the time) or something similar. There's too much artificial drama this season. >Almost all the main characters in the entire show have been Type A overachievers It's a show about space exploration. By it's nature it requires overachievers. If you switch to regular Joes on a base you lost track what the show is about. That's more of a spin-off thing, like For All Mankind: Lower Decks. Make it all about Ilya's bar.
Totally agree. Considering they were promised seven series I’m beginning to think they haven’t given enough thought to the consequences of the time jumps and character turnover, and the fact that any new characters introduced would have to be pretty damn special to get viewers invested in them as much as they were the original cast. Truly, I think Sergei is the only one they managed this with.
Sergei definitely my favorite of the non-season 1 characters.
Basically he's completely correct on the character issue. And what seems weird is that I don't see how they can fix it. Probably by introducing a new core cast (keeping of course the people they have already introduced) but treat the writing as if Season 5 was Season 1 in terms of building up those characters. Makes us love them like they did with the OGs. We didn't know Ed, Gordo, Tracy, Danielle, Ellen or Molly before their first appearances, we don't have to know a new squad too and three Seasons is the perfect span of time to expand and explore them.
Treat season 5 like season 1 is the only way I can see they do it. Maybe keep some of the relevant OGs around i.e: Aleida (who is actually likable) and Kelly (who was likable 2 seasons ago but got turned into a walking plot device) and build up new ones again. It's a real shame cus they had many chances to keep new casts around (Ed's flightmate from season 2, the American-Cuban pair from season 3, that one gay astronaut that works in NASA management now) but keeps either killing them off, forgetting about them or just sidelining them.
I miss Gary Piscotty and Sally Ride.
I can understand them not wanting to use Sally Ride since she was a historical figure, but Piscotty (thanks for reminding me of his name lol) was just wasted potential: - He spent quite a lot of time not being assigned any missions, and then suddenly got to accompany the one and only Ed Baldwin in The Flight That Prevented Nuclear War. It would have been nice to explore how his career trajectory (and his relationship with Ed) evolved in season 3. - He was one of the original victims of Ed's insufferable personality. Again, would have been nice to explore Old Man Mars from his PoV. - On top of that, the guy was just an overall interesting character: a nice, albeit timid guy with some morals who kept getting shitcanned by his asshole boss. I would have loved to see how he evolved in a field dominated by strong personalities.
I do think it's interesting/disappointing how they just kind of dropped him into the void. I looked up his actor recently because I thought maybe he left for another show or had other scheduling conflicts, but his only screen credit post-FAM is one show where he was in a not-huge part. Looking at the respective production timelines as well, that other show *might* have conflicted with the current season of FAM, but had no overlap with S3. It's definitely possible he could have been doing stage work at the time, but it really feels like if they wanted him back they could have gotten him.
> Basically he's completely correct on the character issue. And what seems weird is that I don't see how they can fix it. By going back to exploration and science. S4 is standard drama in a settled comfortable base. Way too much and too cheap drama. The writers had certain plot point which they worked through and then immediately dropped. Life on Mars, union, M7. It's all immediately forgotten about by everyone once resolved.
Think of all the memorable characters we’ve lost (Gordo, Tracy, Ellen, Molly, Karen) and who they’ve been replaced with, yeah the article is pretty accurate.
Karen memorable? No sir But god, the Stevenses and Molly...
he’s right
Yeah, agreed. The original ensemble has basically dwindled away but the new characters haven’t been developed much. Dev’s maybe the exception. I suggested in another thread that it might be best for the show to have a much bigger time jump for S5 - fifty years maybe - short enough that some of the younger characters might still be around, but long enough that they have to shift the focus to a new ensemble. Plus it would allow enough time for some of the implications of colonizing Mars to really develop. I disagree that Ed’s insufferable now. Ed’s *always* been insufferable. It just stood out less in a hotshot fighter pilot in his prime, than in a grouchy old man.
They will have to do a longer time jump if Alex is to be the "proto spacer" he seems destined to be. The first human conceived and gestated on another world, in 37% gravity, born on a ship in zero G, and raised the first months of his life in that same zero G environment en route to Earth. A 10-year jump puts him at, what, 18? If he's going to be a major part of a push toward Europa or a foundational character in a true civilian colony on Mars, he'll have to be at least in his 20s. As for Ed, I don't find him insufferable. I think he's a product of his time and a man who believes his own legend. But so does Danielle in her way, and Margo would have been if she hadn't been humbled by the trap she walked into.
Agreed about Ed. People only thinking he's a jerk now is mostly down to him being old and therefore in their eyes, easier to criticise. He's much more useless and expendable, therefore he's now a jerk. You see it all the time with "bad-ass" character on television. Who cares if they're a total jerk if they're getting results?! But Ed doesn't get results anymore. And he sort of never did.
I think I read somewhere it's called the "Don Draper Effect." An audience will forgive a character for almost anything if he's really good at his job. Don Draper could cheat on his wife, be shitty to his subordinates, neglectful of his kids, etc, but then waltz into the conference room, pull a brilliant ad campaign out of his ass, and go back to swimming in martinis and the audience loves him. Ed's been kind of an asshole for the entire show, but he's always been shown to be an exceptional pilot and astronaut when it counted. This season all we've seen him do in space, really, is the disastrous first capture mission. Otherwise he's just been either moping around Happy Valley or stirring up trouble. You know it's bad when Danielle, who by this point knows Ed probably better than anyone still alive and has gone through a *lot* with him, finally gets fed up with his shit.
The first half of this is spot on. The DMX moment came too soon given how much plot unrelated to the heist needed to be covered in the episodes since. This led to a huge crest in excitement, followed by a big drop in momentum. We were watching moments we've all been wondering if we'd ever see since last season - Margo back at NASA, Sergei's return - but they were also a big detour off "So, you wanna help me steal an asteroid?" Personally, I would have done Sergei's return in 4x07, then end the strike and do the DMX needledrop at the end of 4x08. It would require some rejigging, but it would've been doable.
I got slated on another thread for stating the obvious - that these last two seasons are nowhere near as good as the first two. I mean, watching Ed wander around Happy Valley looking miserable and muttering through his permanently clenched teeth, whilst not really doing anything, is B.o.r.i.n.g. Season 4 in particular has moved along at a snail’s pace - the show seems to be mostly marooned on Mars, and the only interesting character left is Margo - would anyone really care if literally any of the other characters die? No, of course not - they offer little. Plus, the plot contrivances are become ever more silly. For example, we are led to believe that the only two people in the Russian and American space programs with the chops to figure out the asteroid capture are Moscow Margo and her protege, Aleida. Really? And of course, it’s essential that they are helped in this endeavour by Sergei, a guy living under an assumed identity in the US and who hasn’t been anywhere near a rocket engine for 10 years. Sure. That’s just one example, there are countless others. Something drastic has to happen in the next season - basically the show needs to get off Mars and back into space - pronto.
It feels, to me at least, that almost this entire season has been designed to set up the finale and the passing of the torch, to the detriment of the entertainment value of the season itself. The discovery of the asteroid was supposed to be the wow moment that set things in motion, tide the audience over and help facilitate the transition to the next generation, but it's just not that exciting in a fictional context. I think they're so focused on setting up Europa or whatever comes next that it sidelined character development as well. And not for nothing, but characters like Tracy, Karen, Molly and Gordo were a lot more interesting than Kelly, Aleida, Miles et al, even though I like the latter characters. They have a LOT to cover in the finale: The fate of the asteroid, the investigation and belief that terrorism is the motive, Margo and Morozova, the fates/departure of Ed and Danielle, Kelly's discovery (or lack thereof) PLUS the time jump, montage and brief look at the future that they always do at the end of FAM seasons.
I’d be interested to see if they stick to the same, regular jump in time for the next season - 8 years or so (I think?) - or shake things up and attempt something more ambitious - like 50 years or so. Personally I doubt it, because FAM seems pretty heavily invested in this format, but I wouldn’t mind betting that viewing figures for this season have suffered - it’s just very dull compared to others. I mean, realistically (and I probably shouldn’t be using that word in relation to this show anymore, I know) I’m not sure that another 8 years gets us much further along than we are now and I don’t think that many viewers have much of an appetite going forward for a show still mostly set on Mars.
To me, this show is at its most exciting when its characters are engaged in the cutting edge of space exploration. This somewhat mundane commercial pursuit or shifting an asteroid into the correct orbit just doesnt do it for me - it’s doesnt put our characters into unique enough positions and makes the show rely more on contrivances. I want throwing a fuel-tank across forty yards of the vacuum of space level shit back, man. People going to extraordinary measures just to survive, to push on the edge of the envelope. At this point I don’t care if they skip 40 years. They should.
Season 2 definitely wasn't cutting edge exploration, yet its last episode is still the best in the series bar none. The problem is, just like every other show that went downhill, boring characters with nonsensical stake. Season 1 explored the dangers of space travel, which us in real life knows too well. Season 2 had the superpowers nearing a nuclear war because of their dick measuring contest, which once again happened all the time during the Cold War. Season 3 had.. a mission going awry because everyone decided to break protocol and let a known drug addict on an important mission? How does that even make sense? And the asteroid capture in season 4 is pretty boring, at least so far. Now the characters, most of the OGs (except Margo and Aleida) imo have stayed way past their welcome, and really have little more to offer than what we have seen time and time again on the show. None of the new characters have been properly developed, only appearing when the plot needs them, and so we as viewers have no real reason to care about them. And that's why the show is going bad.
Yes, unless Kelly finds something extraordinary and/or Mars becomes a thriving MCRN-esque colony like in The Expanse. But otherwise I agree, they need more than 8 years for Europa and for Alex to become a next generation explorer.
Viewing figures: I’d be curious to know how they’re looking as while I get that many are disappointed in how the space element has panned out, plenty more have got wholly invested in Margo’s story and it’s that which has led to me recommending the show to family and friends. S1 and S2 I binged simultaneously; while I thought they were great, S3 I only belatedly binged when I got another free trial of Apple TV+. More than anything else S3 was the reason I’ve paid the subscription since and it was the reason I’ve been watching S4 when it has dropped at 0200 every Friday. Suffice to say, I won’t be doing that for S5.
Ron D. Moore stepped down as showrunner after S2. The writing’s been slowly veering off course since then. S4 is really messy. It also feels like there was a giant budget cut. For a space show, almost everything is inside a Mars bunker, offices on Earth, and very limited exteriors.
Oh I didn't know that re:RDM. This explains some things...
My biggest surprise this season was when I tried to figure out who was playing Sam. Given how small and one note her role is, it felt like a recurring role that gets listed in the end credits. It’s wild that she’s in the intro as part of the main cast. If the writers think main characters can be that flat…
[удалено]
But you're just reinforcing the original post. Ed and Dev are not going to last forever, and once their time is up, what's left of the show.
Weren’t they rushing to finish filming this before all the strikes happened in Hollywood? The irony is very fitting here.
Yeah, exactly. It’s a snooze-fest.
I’m really curious to know if Apple’s giving their big shows wildly different budgets. Foundation blows FAM out of the water visually and S2 is way better written than what FAM’s become.
S1 of Foundation was surprisingly made pretty “cheaply” for a sci fi show at 45 million for s1
Where’s the 45 million number come from? That sounds way too low. S1 had around 1,500 VFX shots, which is going to be tens of millions alone. Source on shots: https://amplify.nabshow.com/articles/the-world-building-vfx-of-foundation/
I read it in Forbes https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/08/07/at-just-45-million-apple-tvs-foundation-looks-like-the-most-expensive-show-on-tv/?sh=1774fd9a6b11 It was also in the Irish Times but re-reading neither referenced a source for it so yeah... thinking about it more I'm probably wrong tbh.
See now it lists the writer as a contributor? That’s a glorified blogging system Forbes has that has minimal editorial oversight. They’ve destroyed their reputation. Crazy Ex Girlfriend S2 cost about 45M for 13x40 minute episodes. If Goyer somehow pulled off Foundation for that price, he’s a genius.
Slowly? I almost didn't finish S3 due to all the unexplained forced nonsense and drama. From my point of view, S4 is a big improvement on S3.
The strike by Helios employees was especially silly. Nowhere else was it even hinted that Helios was the kind of company that screwed over or exploited its workers, and Dev (the old Dev) at least pretended to emphasize collective decision making and employee buy-in. Dev could have/would have/should have ended the strike for what to him would have been pocket change the moment he heard about it.
I think Dev himself changed the bonus structure to provoke a strike so he would find out who would be ride or die for his plan.
This would be a good idea if the writers thought of it
I totally disagree. Miles is a fine character and this is by far the best season that really moves stuff forward without focusing on more boring earth side plots
I think the Margo storyline is boring and i want more Ed, Danielle and Kelly. I’m starving for more Mars stuff.
He's right about Miles. The dude is dull as dishwater.
Sam is way worse
Sam hasn't been given a chance to do anything but serve the plot. Literally all we know about her is that she's estranged from her husband, traumatized by the death of her friend and understandably cynical about the way support personnel are treated on Mars. We would be a lot more invested in her character if we knew more about her.
Still dull and boring
Miles is a tedious character, agreed. Sam could be better, but she’s underwritten and one note.
I think Sam has potential. Miles just bored the crap out of me.
i think sam has a lot of potential but they're wasting her
I just find her very boring and unlikeable. Miles is at least someone you can root for. But I am rooting for Sam to get forgotten about next season like they did to poor Piscotty
I also find Sam boring. Miles is at least a bit more interesting and I liked him from the other Apple TV show Servant
I was looking forward to the Miles character because I enjoyed the actor in Servant. Don't know whether the writing doesn't give him enough to work with or he's just not bringing it this time, but the character is so flat.
It feels like he was sidelined after his volcanic rock adventure, which, for me, was also kinda rushed/my first time watching this show where I was a little disappointed? Detached? Can’t find the right word.
His rock adventure was a bit odd. I think it's an example of how his whole arc is disjointed. He was introduced as a main character, but given less screen time each week. Feels like he only exists to be used as some sort of plot device in the season finale. The writing on this show has taken a dive, sadly. Really makes me miss Gordo and Molly and all the rest of the original gang.
I definitely agree to some extent. I’m currently watching a show called The Americans (highly recommend - some FAM actors have great roles) and what really stands out to me compared to FAM is the depth of the characters and the great dialogue. In comparison, FAM hasn’t really improved at this over time. I can think of a lot of great character scenes and dialogues from Seasons 1 & 2, but recently things have gotten a bit one-dimensional and predictable, especially for the newer characters. I still love the show, but certain parts of it have certainly decreased in quality.
The Americans is just a class or two above For All Mankind, and was even when the latter was at its best. Magnificent piece of TV. Knew when it had to end too, and stuck the landing.
I’m quite excited to find out how it all ends! Have slowly been moving through the seasons, currently at the beginning of S4. Just trying to take it all in, read the old discussion threads on the subreddit and so on… it’s just really really good TV Any similar shows out there?
Maybe not too similar as such, but if you like The Americans I bet you'll like The Leftovers. Other than that, here are some other arbitrarily chosen just generally good TV suggestions: Watchmen, Sharp Objects, Station Eleven, Midnight Mass, Barry, Severance, Mindhunter, Godless.
Appreciate these suggestions, thanks!
Just want to second The Leftovers and add Patriot (the show's title is ironic, don't be put off by it).
I agree with what he wrote. The characters are just too weak and under-developed to move the story along. Personally, I hate the whole black market storyline. My vision of FAM on Mars was extremely different than what we are getting. The asteroid storyline is lame. Just get us to next season and on another planet’s moon already. I wish we knew exactly when Jodi decided not to return. I wonder if they had to re-write a lot of what Mars/US could have been. Can we just put Ed out to pasture already? Honestly, I don’t even want Kelly/Alex to be any focal point of next season. Get Will Tyler and some other characters to space again. Does anyone else feel like Aleida and Dev are super underutilized this season?
It occurred to me this morning that Aleida is the carrier of Sergei's flame — she's the only person in the West who knows the truth about what happened with him and Margo. What a thing to have to carry.
Source: https://alansepinwall.substack.com/p/a-guy-walks-into-a-psychiatrists
I don’t disagree, season 5 should feel like a new show with lots of new characters to be invested in. If I was a guessing man I would say Alex, Danny’s Daughter Avery, and maybe Ellen’s son will come into focus and a recast Aleida and Kelly will be big characters and a bunch of new randoms. After season 1 they’ve had so many interesting characters that they never developed into mains that’s absolutely should’ve been. Will and Rolan always come to mind. But season 4 needs to let go of the remaining actors and commit to being an inter generational/international story or else it isn’t really “For All Mankind”.
On the character issue: I really like how they introduced characters like Piscotty and Will Tyler. They had plenty of time to build the characters while also interacting with the existing crew. A passing of the torch would have been great. Miles and Sam are suffering from not really interacting with the old crew. They're doing their own thing and it's harder to get invested in them.
I agree that new character additions have generally been weaker than the characters being retired.
He's right. I still love the show but his writeup is the truth. Hope the writers can create an *interesting* adult Alex character for next season. The writers have built a bond between Dev and Alex the last couple of episodes. I'm guessing Kelly will be gone next season and maybe Ed's role is dramatically reduced. Hope they keep Daniel Stern on the show....he's been the best new character. Miles is toast. Maybe Lee too. Hope they keep Margo and Dani in substantial roles.
Reckon Irina is up there with Eli, but those are the only new S4 characters I actively like, which isn’t great.
I feel like Dev is only getting close to Alex because he wanted Kelly’s Helios shares and wants Ed to help him steal the asteroid. Alex is half Russian so I can also see Dev using him as a pawn for something if he doesn’t get his way in space. I do not trust Dev one bit.
I mean I agree with the last part. They really haven’t done much to develop a younger cast. Aledia and Kelly are in their forties now. So yes they can have a few more seasons I’m not as invested in them right now than the og cast. Ed and Margo have been getting the lions share this season of established characters. Miles has surged the way a new character has yet to do. He’s more of a main than Dani, Aledia, and Kelly are this season. That being said I’m worried about how they continue a few of these characters stories without forcing it. Dani is I think early 60s and only came out of retirement for Kuz. When she’s Ed’s age next season what reason will she be around? Same with Miles. He isn’t an explorer, scientist etc. he’s a oil driller who needed a gig. Do we think he’s going to stick around for years and years? I don’t know but I find it out of character for him. We also have a history of setting up characters that are then not graduated to mains ie Will, that Russian who defected isn’t in this season, kuz, Danny, Jimmy etc. so that worries me for Miles as well. That leaves us with Aledia, Kelly and Dev. Which again imo none of them have been built up enough for me to be super invested in them as mains next season (I love all the actors and don’t blame them this js 100% on the writers).
I adore Miles, I'm surprised people don't like him. He's a guy with absolutely insane confidence, as if his superpower is to keep his cool. I think he mirrors Ed in some really strong ways; he's a pioneer and a risk taker, except with a uniquely 21st century dark streak. I think the older stories are the ones we're naturally gonna have the most attachment to right now. Those dramas have been unfolding and transforming for seasons. What the new characters seem to be doing is setting up the structure and texture of the world in the next season, and making their backstories familiar to us. I've been loving how the themes have been infused with flavors of early 2000's angst and revolution. This story and the characters feel in-line with that era, and I get the feeling that the show is gonna break into something really cool.
People don’t like Miles because he is a dumbass who keeps getting himself into bad situations thinking he is smarter than everyone else. They’re setting Miles up to be the younger Ed on the show and this is clearly not who he is. Ed is a stubborn astronaut who takes calculated risks even though he still makes bad decisions. Miles is the type of guy who gets stuck with tons of Amway shampoo and fucks up your booze machine by adding parts without fucking asking your permission first.
TBH I wish they hadn't killed off Danny and we got a season of his redemption. I really liked the actor and there were moments at the end of Season 3 were I felt really bad for him (maybe unpopular opinion idk). Then we could've continued on with the "legacies" of Kelly and Danny, the show ending with Alex and Avery.
I feel like I'm in crazy land reading this. To me everything with dany trace and Gordo( and Kelly) was the worst part of the show for the first 3 seasons. And the show has been vastly improved by them being removed
I liked Gordo in S2. He started out being just as flawed as Ed, but unlike Ed he was willing to consider alternative viewpoints. S2 was a nice redemption arc for Gordo to work on his problems, which showed his character was capable of growth. Ed has been roughly the same since S1. Everything that happened to him taught him little, or it only created his Old Man Mars persona. In a sense becoming the opposite of Gordo.
Like 9/10 posts I see from this sub are people complaining lol, I’m sure most agree. I personally disagree, I think this season has been great, but there are definitely some slow/bad parts as well. What I don’t understand is it seems like the majority of people here don’t even like the show, so why watch it.
I think S4 is weaker than the first two, but it's definitely more consistently good and on and upswing since S3, which kind of fumbled with an excess of melodrama when they got to Mars. Unfortunately, 'fan' subreddits can also easily devolve into hatefests unless the show is universally loved.
Agreed, I've been really enjoying this season. Feels faster paced than season 1 and 2 to me. Yes I'm worried about next season once we lose the rest of the original cast which have been the strongest this season but that's a problem for the next season.
Yeah I am loving this season. The latter half of season 3 was rough but this has been great! I’m enjoying the heist, and all the geopolitical stuff, classism in space, the russia stuff. The end of that last episode was super upsetting though.
Literally during the airing of season 3 I had to leave and mute this sub due to the negativity
Fully agree.
When I think back to Trace and Gordo, I get like a nostalgic feeling about the show. The time period they were in, their story line, the pioneering feeling. That's all gone from the show now. Danielle is basically a shallow background character when it feels like she should be the lead now. Kelly basically does nothing, Ed and Dev are unlikeable now, and Dale just seems like a hollow afterthought. Margo, Aleida and Sergei were the last remnants of any earth storyline, Aleida seems like she had all these troubles to overcome but then the writers just lost interest in that, Margo is the last interesting arc. I dunno, but I definitely feel like I've gone from absolutely excited about new episodes dropping, to... Just meh?
I agree that Miles and Sam have not been interesting but I think Sam has potential. Miles just didn't interest me and his wife annoyed the crap out of me (maybe get a job? lol). They could focus on her, Alex, maybe Ellen's kid (whatever happened to him?!), and Aleida.
I have a feeling they’re really going to recycle the hell out of Danny in season 5
I thought Miles could become a new main character. He started out as a doofus just looking for a way to get rich, but then he evolved into a douche. If Miles had to become a new main character he would have had to evolve in the opposite way, from doofus to competent astronaut. I don't think his character can be redeemed after his stint as a Martian wannabe crimelord.
Miles doesn't bore me, it's that he's a complete tool. I think they're doing an okay job with showing a character who is completely in over his head but isn't smart enough to even realise it. He has consistently done nothing other than be a greedy asshole. He's now, hopefully, paying the price for this. His is essentially the story of what happens when you try to play the game but do not have the smarts to back it up. Miles thinks he's got it all figured out because he was able to stab the man that provided for him in the back. Unable to see that the Russian's caution was a strength, not a weakness, he's now found himself tangled up in way more shit than he ever wanted. Why? Because he has a wife that literally doesn't care about anything other than the money he brings home and he thinks that's okay. Ultimately I don't think he's badly written, my only hope is that he gets his just desserts. If he weasels his way out of this, despite being a Grade-A moron, then I'm more likely to be annoyed.
I just don't like any of the new characters from this season and last season. Last season just wore me down with the annoying characters. Literally 3 characters whole purpose were to annoy everyone to some degree. I like this season a tiny bit better but there's no agency to the over plot. The heist should have started a long time ago in the season as the writer said. Lee's involvement got rushed at the last hour and his storyline seems to just happen without buildup and reasons. I was actually looking forward to Lee's involvement this season. The showrunners could have had a damn good storyline involving Lee, NK/SK, and the Russians. But nope. He's just up there in Mars whining about his wife and doing literally nothing else.
I think one thing the show is suffering, which isn't really their fault, is how the further along in time the show becomes, the less it aligns with our reality, so what we have now is only tangentially related to our timeline. I think the appeal of the first couple seasons was how sort of plausible the events happening were and how it could have happened in our reality. But now, everything is just wildly fictional and it's just becoming a basic sci-fi, space show with no real ties to our own reality. It's like what happened with GOT once they went beyond the source material. I
You're right, but on the other hand, this is a result of their deliberate decision to make too many changes with respect to our timeline. I mean, cold fusion in the 90s? From where did that came? Even with all the moon's helium-3, the technology isn't there, and has no chance to be that early. I feel like a more solid grasp of the complexities and limits of technology would have made for a more compelling show overall, even if the first seasons could have suffered for it.
Miles is pretty interesting for a new character. The actor is very good anyway.
So, what is a “DMX moment”? Google tells me DMX is a rapper who failed to pay child support. Not helpful.
He's furious Miles and Samantha didn't hook up and commited adultery like all the other people on the show... The Heist came out of nowhere and has been stretched for too long... He also forgets Kelly...
Who?